Origin of I2-din. Slavic, Paleo-Balkan or?

[we92]

Several days ago, a lady stated a legendary thread and said "The ones who think I2-din is not Slavic, can you please fuck off from this haplogroup." but unfortunately the thread has been deleted. So, my question is what do you think about the origin of I2-din? I think it is of Slavic origin but I have no idea how it is 15-20% in Mesopotamia.

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/haplogroup_i2a2.gif

[Jana]

It's 0% in Mesopotamia and I2a1 is not I2-din. Whose sock account are you? I'll report you to Loki.
Edit. we92 reported to the staff.

[PaleoEuropean]

I2 evolved in the Balkans and radiated outward. I2A din either evolved in the Balkans or the Poland area.

[Jana]

I2 evolved in the Balkans and radiated outward. I2A din either evolved in the Balkans or the Poland area.

No. But this thread has no purpose than to start trolling, I will ask for it to be deleted.

[Kamal900]

It doesn't exist anywhere in the middle east or north africa, and yes, it is Slavic since it originated in what is now Ukraine and so on not so long ago which geneticists use it as a proxy of Slavic male migrants to the balkans at the early middle ages which Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and other Southern Slavs have high frequency of such haplogroup and clade. It's not only R1a that ancient Slavs belong to btw.

[Bosniensis]

It doesn't exist anywhere in the middle east or north africa, and yes, it is Slavic since it originated in what is now Ukraine and so on not so long ago which geneticists use it as a proxy of Slavic male migrants to the balkans at the early middle ages which Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and other Southern Slavs have high frequency of such haplogroup and clade. It's not only R1a that ancient Slavs belong to btw.

Jebem ti svu Arabiju dosado božija.. mrš u saharu pa tamo zabijaj nos.

[Bosniensis]

I2 evolved in the Balkans and radiated outward. I2A din either evolved in the Balkans or the Poland area.

/highfive

you are intelligent bro.

[PaleoEuropean]

/highfive

you are intelligent bro.

I have read pretty much everything there is to read on the subject :P

[Kamal900]

Jebem ti svu Arabiju dosado božija.. mrš u saharu pa tamo zabijaj nos.

:rolleyes:

Do I smell butthurt much? You're just as much of a big cuck as that Lebanese in my own thread as well. Why do you hate being Slavic btw? If I was a Slav I would wear that as a badge of honor than anything.

[TheMaestro]

Jebem ti svu Arabiju dosado božija.. mrš u saharu pa tamo zabijaj nos.

XDDDDD Polako Sinane

[Bosniensis]

:rolleyes:

Do I smell butthurt much? You're just as much of a big cuck as that Lebanese in my own thread as well. Why do you hate being Slavic btw? If I was a Slav I would wear that as a badge of honor than anything.

Do you see me posting on Arab forums?

Imagine me discussing if some Arabic tribe is that or that or if some Arab tribe should own the land of some other tribe?

We are NOT slavs.

I DO NOT HATE being Slav.

Our Politicians and Religious institutions unanimously agree we are NOT Slavs.

Our President said: We are Celts, Illyrians mixed with Slavs, that's not Slavs.

[Dušan]

Jebem ti svu Arabiju dosado božija.. mrš u saharu pa tamo zabijaj nos.

:laugh2::rofl_002:

[Ion Basescul]

Thank God, I was afraid that we wouldn't have the usual I2 thread this month.

[PaleoEuropean]

Do you see me posting on Arab forums?

Imagine me discussing if some Arabic tribe is that or that or if some Arab tribe should own the land of some other tribe?

We are NOT slavs.

I DO NOT HATE being Slav.

Our Politicians and Religious institutions unanimously agree we are NOT Slavs.

Our President said: We are Celts, Illyrians mixed with Slavs, that's not Slavs.

I mean what really is a Slav? The original Slavs are from Kievan Rus and all hated each other before the Vikings unified them, considering how densely concentrated I is everywhere it's found there is no reason to believe that Balkanites are anything but native aside from their language and maybe their cultures. I is always concentrated like in Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia due to the resistance to farming and possibly the effects of disease brought by newer populations. There is no evidence of anything to the contrary.

[Dušan]

Do you see me posting on Arab forums?

Imagine me discussing if some Arabic tribe is that or that or if some Arab tribe should own the land of some other tribe?

We are NOT slavs.

I DO NOT HATE being Slav.

Our Politicians and Religious institutions unanimously agree we are NOT Slavs.

Our President said: We are Celts, Illyrians mixed with Slavs, that's not Slavs.

Sinan, if I2-din is not Slavic by origin, why are there 6.5 milion Russians and 4.5 milion Ukrainians with that haplogroup?

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png


There are more people with this haplogroup in Ukraine only, than in whole ex-Yugoslavia.

[Jana]

I mean what really is a Slav? The original Slavs are from Kievan Rus and all hated each other before the Vikings unified them, considering how densely concentrated I is everywhere it's found there is no reason to believe that Balkanites are anything but native aside from their language and maybe their cultures. I is always concentrated like in Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia due to the resistance to farming and possibly the effects of disease brought by newer population. There is no evidence of anything to the contrary.

Stfu. We are not natives. In my signature is visible how much I match ancient Balkan samples, and it is 30%.

Stop pretending you know anything about South Slavs, you are not one dumb Yank.

[Bosniensis]

Sinan, if I2-din is not Slavic by origin, why are there 6.5 milion Russians and 4.5 milion Ukrainians with that haplogroup?

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png


There are more people with this haplogroup in Ukraine only, than in whole ex-Yugoslavia.

Those are Balkan people in Russia.

Why are you suprised that I2 is in Russia and not to surprise to see J2a in Italy? Millions of J2a in Italy.

Eastern Celts and Balkan people moved towards North, North-East and East.

R1a in Russia are Natives, I2a1b Balkanites.

They grew up faster in Russia cause they multiplied faster.

[Jana]

When will subhuman Bosniensis be banned btw?

[PaleoEuropean]

Stfu. We are not natives. In my signature is visible how much I match ancient Balkan samples, and it is 30%.

Stop pretending you know anything about South Slavs, you are not one dumb Yank.

Stears, don't be so salty all the time; anyone can read up on the subject matter. Why would you match an ancient sample closely to begin with? Your logic is conjecture.

[Bosniensis]

When will subhuman Bosniensis be banned btw?

TA isn't Pavelić's Croatia..

Free Speech bitch.

[Kamal900]

Do you see me posting on Arab forums?

Imagine me discussing if some Arabic tribe is that or that or if some Arab tribe should own the land of some other tribe?

We are NOT slavs.

I DO NOT HATE being Slav.

Our Politicians and Religious institutions unanimously agree we are NOT Slavs.

Our President said: We are Celts, Illyrians mixed with Slavs, that's not Slavs.

Orwellian double speak at it's finest.

[Ford]

It's the apex Slavic haplogroup

[Jana]

Stears, don't be so salty all the time; anyone can read up on the subject matter. Why would you match an ancient sample closely to begin with? Your logic is conjecture.

Prasac crta.

[PaleoEuropean]

Sinan, if I2-din is not Slavic by origin, why are there 6.5 milion Russians and 4.5 milion Ukrainians with that haplogroup?

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png


There are more people with this haplogroup in Ukraine only, than in whole ex-Yugoslavia.

Why is I2a-Din the largest I clade in Germany? People move around, Hunter Gatherers spread out all over following Deer, Bears, Bison and Salmon. Ukraine was a perfect refuge for hunting and fishing. You can find the mostly British and German clades of I2 in Romania, but the earliest person from the clade found is in Poland. People move around is the simple answer.

[Jana]

Why is I2a-Din the largest I clade in Germany? People move around, Hunter Gatherers spread out all over following Deer, Bears, Bison and Salmon. Ukraine was a perfect refuge for hunting and fishing. You can find the mostly British and German clades of I2 in Romania, but the earliest person from the clade found is in Poland. People move around is the simple answer.

I1 is largest I clade in Germany, clown. I2 din has extremely low frequency mostly among Slavic descended Germans except most basal clades.

[catgeorge]

It doesn't exist anywhere in the middle east or north africa, and yes, it is Slavic since it originated in what is now Ukraine and so on not so long ago which geneticists use it as a proxy of Slavic male migrants to the balkans at the early middle ages which Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and other Southern Slavs have high frequency of such haplogroup and clade. It's not only R1a that ancient Slavs belong to btw.

No it hasn't - it originated in what is now France.

[Leto]

Sinan, if I2-din is not Slavic by origin, why are there 6.5 milion Russians and 4.5 milion Ukrainians with that haplogroup?

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png


There are more people with this haplogroup in Ukraine only, than in whole ex-Yugoslavia.
I2 ranges from 5% in Northern Russians to 15% in Southern Russians. Approximately of course.

[Jana]

No it hasn't - it originated in what is now France.

No. Basal I2-din clades are all in SW Germany.

[catgeorge]

No. Basal I2-din clades are all in SW Germany.

OK - but thats not what y-full says.

[Jana]

OK - but thats not what y-full says.

Yes, it does. French sample is ethnic German from Alsace. Other basal clades are all in Baden Wuttenberg.

[Bosniensis]

Slavs as a term appeared in 7th century.

They aren't even a civilization.

Russians are mix of Germanics, Turkics, Finnic, Caucasian and Baltic peoples..... and I2 Celtic/Balkanic.

[PaleoEuropean]

Who the fuck are you to call my people natives, when we are largerly of Slavic invader origin proven by history and genetics and subjugated those inferior wog tribes.

Thank God I look nothing like balkan natives either.

Leave us alone. I don't need to prove who we are to every white trash hillybilly every second day.

You are a native get over yourself Stears, you don't look like a Slav or a German, you look like a Serbian War criminal.

[catgeorge]

Yes, it does. Fremch sample is ethnic German from Alsace.

Huh - no such thing as ethnic French nor ethnic German back then... the closest explanation you can get it was a proto-Celtic migration east.

[PaleoEuropean]

I reported you for claiming I am Stears, fat ass. Enjoy your incoming ban.

You are obviously Stears, which is pretty sad you are willing to take advantage of your women to make petty quarrels over the internet. You can report me all you like, how many times has Loki had to ban Feiichy's account because you wanna throw temper tantrums online? It's childish.

[Leto]

Russians are mix of Germanics, Turkics, Finnic, Caucasian and Baltic peoples..... and I2 Celtic/Balkanic.
Not true. The Germanic influence is close to non-existent. Turkic is also very small or none at all. And Caucasians were annexed ca. 200 years ago and have never mixed on a large scale since they're mountaineer hostile Muslim tribes and very different from Slavic Russians.

[Jana]

Huh - no such thing as ethnic French nor ethnic German back then... the closest explanation you can get it was a proto-Celtic migration east.

Yes, I2 din most likely has deep Celtic origin, but it took part in Slavic ethnogenesis and migrated to Balkans as fully Slavic.

Balkan Celts are unrelated to that and were mostly G2a.

[catgeorge]

Yes, I2 din most likely has deep Celtic origin, but it took part in Slavic ethnogenesis and migrated to Balkans as fully Slavic.

Balkan Celts are unrelated to that and were mostly G2a.

It mutated over time.... the language was taken from Baltids/Polish.

Language is passed on from mother to child not father to child.

Its a native European mutation no matter how one looks at it.

[Dušan]

I2 ranges from 5% in Northern Russians to 15% in Southern Russians. Approximately of course.

Yes. Southern Russians are closest to proto-Slavs, while northern Russians are mixed to some degree with Finnic people.

[PaleoEuropean]

Several days ago, a lady stated a legendary thread and said "The ones who think I2-din is not Slavic, can you please fuck off from this haplogroup." but unfortunately the thread has been deleted. So, my question is what do you think about the origin of I2-din? I think it is of Slavic origin but I have no idea how it is 15-20% in Mesopotamia.

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/haplogroup_i2a2.gif

I2 isn't found at 15% in Mesopotamia but it's found in high concentration due to several factors 1. The Ottoman's protectorates and subjects moved around 2. I2 was a part of Indo-Aryan confederations such as Scythians. 3. Genetic diffusion, which is a natural process of migration. Another factor is the diaspora of Spanish and Portuguese Jews which carried more I2 and R1b than normal.

[Bosniensis]

Yes. Southern Russians are closest to proto-Slavs, while northern Russians are mixed to some degree with Finnic people.

Nations are made of blood tribes. Nations as in modern sense exist only for few hundred years.

To belong to a nation in Iron Age, you must have been blood related or in our language = Same Haplogroup.

There is no chance that in Iron Age I2 and R1a were from a same brotherhood one being Indo European other being Proto European.

[TheMaestro]

Slavs as a term appeared in 7th century.

They aren't even a civilization.

Russians are mix of Germanics, Turkics, Finnic, Caucasian and Baltic peoples..... and I2 Celtic/Balkanic.


I can lend you my halogroup for few days.

[Satem]

^^^Yeah right, because they were able to check it, they probably didn't give a shit if someone is I2a or R1a, they had many more important things to do for example get some food, water ect. At this time most likely language and believes were a factor to associate as part of a larger group

[Vojnik]

Would be cool if it was Illyrian or something paleo-Balkan, but i'm afraid it's Slavic (eastern european) in origin. The I2 that is of high frequency in the Balkans. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Mesopotamian branch, as the Sardinian branch, are different to the Dinaric/Balkan branch.

[blueeyes]

Slavic is a linguistic name, not a genetic one. I2, tall, large and dark, looks nothing like R1a

Southern Slavs are just slavicized Vlachs!

https://i.ibb.co/gb81dWc/AB5-B118-C-CF3-C-48-E0-ABA1-3-D9-B58688264-w1023-r1-s.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HYk0kvR/1571082657306-lc-gallery-Image-Bulgaria-fans-in-the-stan.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/0jkQ9Q4/140424111551-31-0-bosnia-fans-lead-image-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg

[Jana]

Would be cool if it was Illyrian or something paleo-Balkan, but i'm afraid it's Slavic (eastern european) in origin. The I2 that is of high frequency in the Balkans. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Mesopotamian branch, as the Sardinian branch, are different to the Dinaric/Balkan branch.

Unfirtunately you Macedonian Slavs are below 50% Slavic genetically and almost no different from Vlachs/Aromanians. Very different from Croats or Bosnians.
You diluted your blood too much

[Vojnik]

Unfirtunately you Macedonian Slavs are below 50% Slavic genetically and almost no different from Vlachs/Aromanians. Very different from Croats or Bosnians.
You diluted your blood too much

It's not unfortunate to me :)

[Jana]

It's not unfortunate to me :)

Well if I was Macedonian Slav I would be happy with it. But, being a Croat I am very proud to Know how much Slavic blood our ancestors preserved even after thousand years on Adriatic shores. It's a great feeling to Know how capable they were to take this most beautiful part of Europe from other people and remain here until this day :)

[Dušan]

I am proud on both my Slavic and Vlach genetic component.

[Vojnik]

Well if I was Macedonian Slav I would be happy with it. But, being a Croat I am very proud to Know how much Slavic blood our ancestors preserved even after thousand years on Adriatic shores. It's a great feeling to Know how capable they were to take this most beautiful part of Europe from other people and remain here until this day :)

Well Macedonian Slavs reached the Aegean sea. Produced people like Cyril and Methodius. Translated the bible into Slavonic. Created the Glagolitic alphabet, Cyrillic alphabet, and then went up to Great Moravia to teach the Slavs up there how to read and right.

During that time, we mixed with the locals. The same way the Anglo Saxons mixed with the Celts in Britain.

[Leto]

Well Macedonian Slavs reached the Aegean sea. Produced people like Cyril and Methodius. Translated the bible into Slavonic. Created the Glagolitic alphabet, Cyrillic alphabet, and then went up to Great Moravia to teach the Slavs up there how to read and right.

Is that actually certain Cyril & Methodius were Slavs and not Greeks? I think Byzantium assigned them the task of evangelizing the Slavs. Obviously they were culturally Byzantine and knew Greek very well.

[Daos777]

More samples needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Renekton]

I think it's Slavic

[Jana]

I have it best of all words :) I am genetically pred. Northern/Slavic, but with native component which gives us legitimacy over lands we conquered.
Also I happen to look like northern invader, not wog, but instead of living in cold and not so attractive more Northernly Europe I enjoy in warm Adriatic sea :D :D :D


That's why we feel so Superior, we are northerners who came to this pradise lands and conquered wogs without becoming too much like them <3
Hehehe.

[Vojnik]

Is that actually certain Cyril & Methodius were Slavs and not Greeks? I think Byzantium assigned them the task of evangelizing the Slavs. Obviously they were culturally Byzantine and knew Greek very well.

Some sources allude to it:


At the time St. Cyril, then still known as Constantine, was receiving his education in Byzantium, there was a strong German effort to convert the Slavic population in Moravia to the Roman Catholic faith. Their teachings however were in Latin, and as a result, in 862 or 863, the Moravian Prince Rostislav sent to the Byzantine Emperor Michael III for a "bishop and a teacher," saying, "My people have rejected paganism and hold the Christian law, but we do not have a teacher who could preach to us in our own native tongue." The Emperor quickly chose to send Constantine, accompanied by his brother Methodius, justifying his decision with the words "You two are from Salonika, and all Thessalonians speak pure Slavonic." Constantine immediately composed an alphabet and with his brother began the process of translating the Gospels into Slavonic. It appears that, at the time, the Slavonic dialects were little enough differentiated so that a translation could be made which would be broadly intelligible.

https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/ocsol/30

[Blondie]

It's slavic, originated from West Ukraine, where the original slavs came from.

"This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE). No Y-DNA sample from this culture has been tested to date, but as it evolved as an offshoot from the Starčevo–Kőrös–Criş culture, it is likely that I2a was one of its main paternal lineages, and a founder effect could have increased considerably its frequency. The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture was the most advanced Neolithic culture in Europe before the Indo-European invasions in the Bronze Age and seems to have had intensive contacts with the Steppe culture before the expansion of Yamna to the Balkans and Central Europe (see histories of R1a and R1b). From 3500 BCE, at the onset of the Yamna period in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe, the Cucuteni-Trypillian people started expanding east into the steppe of what is now western Ukraine, leaving their towns (the largest in the world at the time), and adopting an increasingly nomadic lifestyle like their Yamna neighbours. It can easily be imagined that Cucuteni-Trypillian people became assimilated by the Yamna neighbours and that they spread as a minority lineage alongside haplogroups R1a and R1b as they advanced toward the Baltic with the Corded Ware expansion. Alternatively, I2-L621 lineages could have lived in relative isolation from the mainstream Proto-Indo-European society somewhere around Ukraine, Poland or Belarus, then as the centuries and millennia passed, would have blended with the predominantly R1a populations around them. The resulting amalgam would have become the ancestors of the Proto-Slavs.

Nowadays, I2a1 is five to ten times more common than G2a in Southeast Europe, while during the Neolithic period G2a was approximately four times more common. What can explain this complete reversal? At one point in history, I2a1 lineages seem to have benefited from being on the winning side. Apart from a minor boost from (hypothetically) joining Yamna's westward expansion to Europe, the principal determining event that allowed I2a1b-L621 to become a major Eastern European lineage was probably the Slavic migrations from the 6th to the 9th century CE. Most modern Eastern Europeans belonging to I2a1b fit into the L147.2 (aka CTS10228, CTS2180 or Y3111) subclade, which is thought to have arisen 5,600 years ago (just before the Yamna period and the Trypillian expansion into the steppe), but has a TMRCA of only 2,300 years according to Yfull. The minority of I2a1b-L621 individuals negative for L147.2 are all found around eastern Poland, Belarus and western Ukraine, suggesting that this is where this lineage survived since the Chalcolithic. The I2a1b-L147.2 subclade seems to have expanded very fast from 1900 years ago, which is concordant with the timing of the Slavic ethnogenesis, considering that it takes a few centuries before one man can have enough male descendants to start having an impact at the scale of a population. This I2-L147.2 ancestor would have such an impact on the burgeoning Early Slavic population, still small 2,300 years ago, but booming.

After the Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs living further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century, the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south is probably just due to another founder effect due to the fact that the South Slavs originated in western Ukraine, where the ratio of I2a to R1a was higher. Virtually all Dinaric I2a falls under the L147.2 branch, and the majority to the S17250 ramification, who descend from a common patrilinear ancestor who lived only 1,800 years ago."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

[Leto]

Some sources allude to it:



https://lrc.la.utexas.edu/eieol/ocsol/30
I see. But Thessaloniki is undoubtedly a Greek city. Maybe they were indeed Macedonian-like or like some Northern Greeks.

[RandomGuy20]

It is thought to have originated in East Poland/West Ukraine area, moving south with Slavic migration. I vaguely remember reading that these specific tribes where pushed out due to conflict hence the higher percentages in the Balkans/founder effect as Blondie mentioned.

[PaleoEuropean]

It is thought to have originated in East Poland/West Ukraine area, moving south with Slavic migration. I vaguely remember reading that these specific tribes where pushed out due to conflict hence the higher percentages in the Balkans/founder effect as Blondie mentioned.

I2 at its core though originated in the Balkans regardless of it's introduction later, it didn't originate as a Slavic clade, it predates Farmers, Indo-Aryans etc. IJ split in or near Anatolia moved into the Balkans where I2 split again and later moved into the rest of Europe during the Meso/Neolthithic. I2a-Din is like 13,000 years old. Everything it's associated with is irrelevant to it's origins.

[Dorian]

Is that actually certain Cyril & Methodius were Slavs and not Greeks? I think Byzantium assigned them the task of evangelizing the Slavs. Obviously they were culturally Byzantine and knew Greek very well.

No it's not ,never trust a skopjan's words ,when will you learn?

All neutral sources mention that the two brothers had Greek names (we are keeping in mind Cyril was baptised as konstantinos), they were members of a noble family, their father Leon was a Greek military man and their mother of slavic background. Furthermore both brothers were born in Thessaloniki, were educated in Konstantinople where they took a highly Byzantine education and lived all their lives into Byzantine Empire apart from the fact they were send out on missions to bring christianity to various regions.We can find the following evidence from records of their Greek conscience on the Honorary Volume to Cyrillos and Methodios for the 1100 years, Thessaloniki-1968 by Henriette Ozanne. For example, the below for Cyrillos:In his dialog with the Muslims, he points out that “…every science stem from us…” implying the Greeks and the Greek culture .During the Hazars’ mission, the hagan of the Hazars asked him what present he wished to have offered to him and he said “…Give me all the Greek prisoners of war you have here. They are more valuable to me than any other present…” – Scientif Annals of the Theology Faculty of the Thessaloniki University (1968) Also many non-Greeks accept that the 2 brothers were Greeks:The Slav Pope John Paul II who in 31/12/1980 (in an official encyclical-Egregiae Virtutis-to the Catholic Church) and 14/2/1981(in the S.Clement church in Rome) said that Cyrillos and Methodios were “Greek brothers, born in Thessaloniki”the Serb historian V.Bogdanovich, says that “Kyrillos and Methodios were born in Thessaloniki and were Greeks in origin, not Slavs” (History of the ancient Serbian literature, Belgrade 1980, pg.119).To anyone that has no ties with blind nationalism, it seems to be no doubt that Cyrill and Methodius were Greek, not only by birth but most importantly culturally as it was analyzed above.As it is known both Cyrill and Methodius played probably one of the most important roles in spreading Orthodoxy among the Slavic population. Hence they were named “Apostles of the Slavs“, having the meaning simply that they brought the Christian faith to the Slavs.

I have to underline here of the false notion some have about the title “Apostle“. Fact is that having spread Christian faith among a certain population doesnt mean that they belong ethnically to any of the people they converted. If we followed this flawed logic Khazars would also claim them as Khazars since they went to covert them to Christianity even before they went to the Slavs or even Arabs since Konstantinos undertook a mission to the Arabs.

One of the many examples is the story of Saint Boniface. Saint Boniface – original name Winfrid or Wynfrith – was born at Crediton in Devon, England and was sent to propagate Christianity in the Frankish Empire during the 8th century. Rightfully Saint Boniface was named as “Apostle of the Germans” and another example is St.Thomas who is called “the Indian Apostle,” but we all know that he was not an Indian. Instead he simply brought Christianity to the Indians. Neither Germans nor Indians are upon the tiresome and flawed notion of claiming St Boniface and St Thomas ethnicities as the well-known propagandists do.
Professors Ivan Lazaroff, Plamen Pavloff, Ivan Tyutyundzijeff and Milko Palangurski of the Faculty of History of Sts. Cyril and Methodius University in Veliko Tŭrnovo, Bulgaria in their book, Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod (Short History of the Bulgarian Nation, pp 36-38), state very explicitly that the two brothers were Hellenes (Greeks) from Thessaloniki.

The late Oscar Halecki, Professor of Eastern European History, in his book Borderlands of Western Civilization, A History of East Central Europe (chapter Moravian State and the Apostles of the Slavs) agrees with the authors of Kratka istoriya na bŭlgarskiya narod.

As you see the real scholars and not the fake admit the historical truth.

Also according Pope John Paul II in an official apostolic homily to the entire Catholic Church proclaimed that Methodius and Cyril “Greek brethren born in Thessaloniki” are consecrated as “heavenly protectors of Europe”. John Paul II’ repeated this statement in a speech delivered in the church of Saint Clements, in Rome.
References from books about the ethnicity of Cyril and Methodius.
1.

Then in the ninth century Cyril and Methodius, two Greek monks from Thessaloniki , developed the Cyrillic alphabet and spread both literacy and Christianity to the Slavs.

“The macedonian conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a transnational world” by Loring Danforth
2.

Two Greek brothers from Salonika, Constantine, who later later became a monk and took
the name Cyril, and Methodius came to Great Moravia in 863 at the invitation of the Moravian Prince Rostislav

“Comparative history of Slavic Literatures” by Dmitrij Cizevskij, page vi
3.

the Byzantine court entrusted it to two brothers with wide experience o missionary work: Constantine the Philosopher, better known by his monastic name, Cyril and Methodius. Cyril and Methodius were Greeks.

“Czechoslovakian Miniatures from Romanesque and Gothic Manuscripts” by Jan Kvet, p. 6


4.

In answer to this appeal the emperor sent the two brothers Cyril and Methodius, who were Greeks of Salonika and had considerable knowledge of Slavonic languages.

The Balkans: A history of Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Rumania, Turkey (1916)” by Forbes, Nevil, p. 21
5.

In order to convert the Slavs to Christianity, Greek missionaries Cyril and Methodius learned the language.

“Lonely Planet Croatia” by Jeanne Oliver, P.35
6.

two brothers, the Apostles of the Sclavonians or Slavs, born in Greece and educated in Constantinople.

“Book of the Saints 1921″ by Monks Benedictine, P. 74
7.

Cyril, St 827-69 and Methodius, St 826-85, known as the Apostles of the Slavs – Greek Christian missionaries– They were born in Thessalonica.

“The Riverside Dictionary of Biography” by the American Heritage Dictionaries, p. 208
8.

two greek brothers, Cyril and Methodius, were sent in response to this request. This development was of particular importance to the formation of eastern european culture.

“historical Theology” by McGrath, p.125
9.

the byzantine emperor sent two greek monks, Cyril and Methodius, to spread Christianity to the slavic people.

“Global History and Geography” by Phillip Lefton, p. 130
10.

As the Slav tribes feel under the influence of Byzantium a considerable number of them were baptised but they were first converted to Christianity in Mass by the Greek brothers, Cyril and Methodius

Black lamb and Grey Falcon: A journey through Yugoslave” by Rebecca West, P. 710
11.

“Cyrillus autem et Methodius fratres, Graeci, Thessalonicae nati…”

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j…irtutis_lt.htmlhttp://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo…rtutis_lt.html Pope John Paul II.
12.
R. L. Wilkens book “Judaism and the Early Christian Mind” (1971)
Quote:

Cyril and Methodius, Saints (muth..us) [key], d. 869 and 884, respectively, Greek missionaries, brothers, called Apostles to the Slavs and fathers of Slavonic literature. Their history and influence are obscured by conflicting legends. After working among the Khazars, they were sent (863) from Constantinople by Patriarch Photius to Moravia. This was at the invitation of Prince Rostislav, who sought missionaries able to preach in the Slavonic vernacular and thereby check German influence in Moravia. Their immediate success aroused the hostility of the German rulers and ecclesiastics. Candidates from among their converts were refused ordination, and their use of the vernacular in the liturgy was severely criticized. According to one source, when Photius was excommunicated by Rome the brothers were called there. Their orthodoxy was established, and the use of Slavonic in the liturgy was approved. Cyril died while in Rome, but Methodius, consecrated by the pope, returned to Moravia and was made archbishop of Sirmium. Despite the papal sanction the Germans contrived to have him imprisoned, and, though released two years later, his effectiveness appears to have been blocked. His last years were spent translating the Bible and ecclesiastical books into Slavonic. His influence in Moravia was wiped out after his death but was carried to Bulgaria, Serbia, and Russia, where the southern Slavonic of Cyril and Methodius is still the liturgical language of both Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches. The Cyrillic alphabet. used in those countries today, traditionally ascribed to St. Cyril, was probably the work of his followers. It was based probably by Cyril himself upon the glagolithic alphabet, which is still used by certain Croatian and Montenegrin Catholics. Feast: July 713.
The Significance of the Missions of Cyril and Methodius
Francis Dvornik
Slavic Review > Vol. 23, No. 2 (Jun., 1964) page: 196
Moravian Christianity even had species of ecclesiastical organization before the arrival of the Greek brothers
14.

Quote:

The Significance of the Missions of Cyril and Methodius
Francis Dvornik
Slavic Review > Vol. 23, No. 2 (Jun., 1964) page: 211
This short sketch of the cultural development of the Slavic nations in the Middle Ages seems necessary to show the real significance of the mission of the two Greek brothers. Its aim in Moravia was, above all, cultural.
15.

Quote:

Slavic Translations of the Scriptures
Matthew Spinka
The Journal of Religion > Vol. 13, No. 4 (Oct., 1933), pp. 415
When those ancient precursors of Bible translators, the Greek brothers Constantine and Methodius, translated certain parts of the Scriptures and the liturgical books into Slavic for the use of their Moravian converts
16.
Quote:

Slavic Translations of the Scriptures
Matthew Spinka
The Journal of Religion > Vol. 13, No. 4 (Oct., 1933), pp. 415
Thus in a sense the two Greek brothers and their disciples fought a fight in behalf of all the later Bible translators and liturgical vernacularists, the English among them.
17.

Quote:

Slavic Translations of the Scriptures
Matthew Spinka
The Journal of Religion > Vol. 13, No. 4 (Oct., 1933), pp. 416-17In co-operation with Patriarch Photius they selected the renowned teacher of philosophy at the court school of Magnaura, Constantine, and his elder brother, Methodius, Greeks from Thessalonica, who were well acquainted with the language of the Macedonian Slavs, as best-fitted missionaries for the Moravian field.
18.

Quote:

Slavic Translations of the Scriptures
Matthew Spinka
The Journal of Religion > Vol. 13, No. 4 (Oct., 1933), pp. 424
The Slavic liturgy was, beyond any doubt, a radical innovation which the Greek brothers could not have justified except as an essential element in insuring the success of their work.

[Jana]

I2 at its core though originated in the Balkans regardless of it's introduction later, it didn't originate as a Slavic clade, it predates Farmers, Indo-Aryans etc. IJ split in or near Anatolia moved into the Balkans where I2 split again and later moved into the rest of Europe during the Meso/Neolthithic. I2a-Din is like 13,000 years old. Everything it's associated with is irrelevant to it's origins.

13000 years old hahaha. Stupid, my fathers branch dates to 6th century after Christ, so early medieval. Stop taking drugs and further embarassing yourself.

[Jana]

It is thought to have originated in East Poland/West Ukraine area, moving south with Slavic migration. I vaguely remember reading that these specific tribes where pushed out due to conflict hence the higher percentages in the Balkans/founder effect as Blondie mentioned.

Higher percentage in dinaric alps is simply because people there had incredible large amount of children compared to lowland farmers, they didn't have to split their lands among them like farmer Slavs did (these dinaric Slavs adopted Vach sheperding lifestyle)

That is why dinaric Slav I2a is super young and lacks diversity compared to place like Ukraine.

[PaleoEuropean]

13000 years old hahaha. Stupid, my fathers branch dates to 6th century after Christ, so early medieval. Stop taking drugs and further embarassing yourself.

I2a Din and Isles split from their core clade over 10,000 years ago Stears, the oldes Isles clade comes from Poland Stears, it's not rocket science.

[Jana]

I2a Din and Isles split from their core clade over 13,000 years ago Stears, the oldes Isles clade comes from Poland Stears, it's not rocket science.

No, Slavic (din branch) is 4 times younger than that. You were caught in lies, dirty troll

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Stears is I1. And the fact it's brother clades are all in NW Europe points to its deep origin which are modern SW German lands tousands of km away from "Balkans"

Deal with it and stop leacturing me about my fathers hg redneck.

[PaleoEuropean]

No, Slavic (din branch) is 4 times younger than that. You were caught in lies, dirty troll

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/

Stears is I1. And the fact it's brother clades are all in NW Europe points to its deep origin which are modern SW German lands tousands of km away from "Balkans"

Deal with it and stop leacturing me about my fathers hg redneck.

Believe whatever you want to believe. I2a Isles and Din split before the Neolithic. You make people on Stormfront with their crackpot theories look like genius visionaries with your lack of knowledge of supposedly your own fathers subclade. I2 Isles came to Northern Europe over 12,000 years ago. Motala and Loschbour man are I2a Isles Stears, were they time travelers who went back in time 10,000 years? Stop hijacking your girlfriends account because you are conflicted about your identity. People here actually read and study, everyone knows I2a Din and Isles split over 10,000 years ago.

[Ford]

Would be cool if it was Illyrian or something paleo-Balkan, but i'm afraid it's Slavic (eastern european) in origin. The I2 that is of high frequency in the Balkans. There's nothing wrong with that.

The Mesopotamian branch, as the Sardinian branch, are different to the Dinaric/Balkan branch.

Why would you want to descend from gypsy pirates who were eternally raped by the Romans? The concentration of I2 in the Balkans is a testament of Slavic hegemony in the region.

[Bosniensis]

Why would you want to descend from gypsy pirates who were eternally raped by the Romans? The concentration of I2 in the Balkans is a testament of Slavic hegemony in the region.

Then who are those R1a people? Turks?

Could it be that we are Slavs and that Russians are Turks then?

If I2 are Slavs then R1a are someone else.

Whatever you decide you can't say that R1a and I2 people belong to the same civilization just like Sardinians are obviously not related to R1b people of Italy.

[PaleoEuropean]

Why would you want to descend from gypsy pirates who were eternally raped by the Romans? The concentration of I2 in the Balkans is a testament of Slavic hegemony in the region.

Illyrians were most likely E,J and R mostly. I won't dispute that the I2 may have migrated from the Balkans and back in, but regardless I2 is Paleo-Balkan pre-Slavic, Pre-Roman, Pre-Illyrian or pre-anyone else. They could have moved into the Ukraine I is a very migratory set of groups; but most certainly I2 was born in the Balkan region and the split between Isles and Din happened in the Balkans. The question is the origin not the concentration.

[Terminator98]

Selfhating Bosniensis (Slavic part) vs selfhating Feiichy (Balkan part) vs PaleoEuropean true lover of I2 HG and honorary Balkaner. Who will win in this clash of titans, I wonder? :eusa_eh::icon_eek:

[Ülev]

Then who are those R1a people? Turks?

Could it be that we are Slavs and that Russians are Turks then?

If I2 are Slavs then R1a are someone else.

Whatever you decide you can't say that R1a and I2 people belong to the same civilization just like Sardinians are obviously not related to R1b people of Italy.

yes, I2a1 the purest Slavs, R1a - Balts, Sarmatians (Sramotians, lol) Scythians etc.

[Jana]

Selfhating Bosniensis (Slavic part) vs selfhating Feiichy (Balkan part) vs PaleoEuropean true lover of I2 HG and honorary Balkaner. Who will win in this clash of titans, I wonder? :eusa_eh::icon_eek:

I can't be self-hating because I am only in minority Paleo-Balkan, I belong to Slavic ethnic group speaking slavic language.

Please, stop being ridiculous.

[Ford]

Then who are those R1a people? Turks?

Could it be that we are Slavs and that Russians are Turks then?

If I2 are Slavs then R1a are someone else.

Whatever you decide you can't say that R1a and I2 people belong to the same civilization just like Sardinians are obviously not related to R1b people of Italy.

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that a culture or society may consist of several haplogroups and clades? Even the original R1b carriers probably spoke a tongue completely alien to Indo-European. It's somehow totally normal how Greeks and Albanians are mainly a mix of E, J and R, yet completely unfathomable that I2 is in any way connected to Slavs...

[Jana]

Why would you want to descend from gypsy pirates who were eternally raped by the Romans? The concentration of I2 in the Balkans is a testament of Slavic hegemony in the region.

Illyrians were one of most irrlevevant people in European history, left absolutely nothing behind them, almost no material culture, no language...absolutely nothing.

Pirates (Liburnians) were advanced ones btw, and most scholars consider them non Illyrian.

Delmatae were among most backwards people in SE Europe.

Only thing they are know for is being subjugated by Romans and Slavs.

I'm proud to descend from NE Euro Slavic invaders who conquered these aboriginal like people.

[Jana]

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that a culture or society may consist of several haplogroups and clades? Even the original R1b carriers probably spoke a tongue completely alien to Indo-European. It's somehow totally normal how Greeks and Albanians are mainly a mix of E, J and R, yet completely unfathomable that I2 is in any way connected to Slavs...

Don't bother with him, he is a muzzie in search for better past and that is only problem here because Islam today isn't very popular among other Slavs (or Europeans for that matter)

:laugh:

[Dorian]

Real Slav is r1a ,i2 is Iranic.

[Hithaeglir]

Stfu. We are not natives. In my signature is visible how much I match ancient Balkan samples, and it is 30%.

Stop pretending you know anything about South Slavs, you are not one dumb Yank.

I think you should calm your tits a little bit. It is one thing to disagree and another to just throw insults around, had to already delete two of them.

[Dušan]

Sincerely, without Vlach component, we would be melancholic, borring, cold people. Without the Slavic component we would be like lazy disorganized mediterraneans.

This mix makes us superior.

[Norb]

Illyrians were one of most irrlevevant people in European history, left absolutely nothing behind them, almost no material culture, no language...absolutely nothing.

Pirates (Liburnians) were advanced ones btw, and most scholars consider them non Illyrian.

Delmatae were among most backwards people in SE Europe.

Only thing they are know for is being subjugated by Romans and Slavs.

I'm proud to descend from NE Euro Slavic invaders who conquered these aboriginal like people.
#metoo

[Jana]

I think you should calm your tits a little bit. It is one thing to disagree and another to just throw insults around, had to already delete two of them.

Okay, but you should understand it's annoying to have your origin attacked every day. Austrians and southern Germans or English are less Germanic genetically than we are Slavic, nobody attacks them.

Not to mention northern Slavs are mixed too, some considerably like Czechs and northern Russians but they are not trolled like south slavs at all.

[Jana]

#metoo

Your ydna is Germanic from.Corded Ware introgression to Scandinavia, nothing to do with Slavs.

[PaleoEuropean]

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that a culture or society may consist of several haplogroups and clades? Even the original R1b carriers probably spoke a tongue completely alien to Indo-European. It's somehow totally normal how Greeks and Albanians are mainly a mix of E, J and R, yet completely unfathomable that I2 is in any way connected to Slavs...

Like I said though before what constitutes a Slav? I agree with both your points in ways, I2 could have migrated out and re-entered but at the end of the day it pre-dates all the cultures we are talking about by thousands of years and autosomally I2 would just be hunter-gatherer which is found in all the aforementioned cultures. Even if this was a troll thread, the scientific method of analysis should be respected.

[Terminator98]

I have it best of all words :) I am genetically pred. Northern/Slavic, but with native component which gives us legitimacy over lands we conquered.
Also I happen to look like northern invader, not wog, but instead of living in cold and not so attractive more Northernly Europe I enjoy in warm Adriatic sea :D :D :D


That's why we feel so Superior, we are northerners who came to this pradise lands and conquered wogs without becoming too much like them <3
Hehehe.


Now you are super contradictory, many times you yourself said that only male Croatians who you consider as attractive are those from Dalmatia and Hercegovina and as we know people from these regions are mainly Dinards, Pontids, Atlanto-Meds and other Med types (usually with CM input though), so how are they so attractive and inferior in same time?
Also, you posted some of your friends from Dalmatia and a lot of them have "dark" skin and dark brown/black hair, I am sure they would be happy to know that you consider them as wog subhumans. :)

[Loki]

I2 is indigenous Balkanic.

[Hithaeglir]

Okay, but you should understand it's annoying to have your origin attacked every day. Austrians and southern Germans or English are less Germanic genetically than we are Slavic, nobody attacks them.

Not to mention northern Slavs are mixed too, some considerably like Czechs and northern Russians but they are not trolled like south slavs at all.

Dude I am Greek, I know how it is to read annoying things about your nationality :lol: Don't fall for it, play along or ignore, the more you respond, the more attacked you will feel.

Cool beans. My job was done here, just be nice kids.

[Bosniensis]

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that a culture or society may consist of several haplogroups and clades? Even the original R1b carriers probably spoke a tongue completely alien to Indo-European. It's somehow totally normal how Greeks and Albanians are mainly a mix of E, J and R, yet completely unfathomable that I2 is in any way connected to Slavs...

It's not difficult to comprehend that. That what you claim is completely impossible because Migrations are thing of early middle ages and people in Iron Age were living in closely related Tribes.

You are telling me that people in Ancient past worked like United States today?

No No.

[Jana]

I2 is indigenous Balkanic.

Our I2 is not but Slavic.

[Jana]

Now you are super contradictory, many times you yourself said that only male Croatians who you consider as attractive are those from Dalmatia and Hercegovina and as we know people from these regions are mainly Dinards, Pontids, Atlanto-Meds and other Med types (usually with CM input though), so how are they so attractive and inferior in same time?
Also, you posted some of your friends from Dalmatia and a lot of them have "dark" skin and dark brown/black hair, I am sure they would be happy to know that you consider them as wog subhumans. :)

These dark Slavic men look nothing like southern Europeans and you know it, they are much taller and more masculine. If you ever visited real Med country you would notice the difference :)

[Jana]

My father for example, who is typical Croat has near black hair but has much more northern than wog facial features.

[Ford]

Like I said though before what constitutes a Slav? I agree with both your points in ways, I2 could have migrated out and re-entered but at the end of the day it pre-dates all the cultures we are talking about by thousands of years and automatically I2 would just be hunter-gatherer which is found in all the aforementioned cultures. Even if this was a troll thread, the scientific method of analysis should be respected.

A Slav is someone who speaks a Slavic language, as it's an ethno-linguistic group. Just as Germanics and Romance people are. And I don't think anyones denies that I2 is native European in the sense that it's connected to Hunter-Gatherers, but rather its association to certain cultural groups in antiquity and early medieval period.

[Bosniensis]

A Slav is someone who speaks a Slavic language, as it's an ethno-linguistic group. Just as Germanics and Romance people are. And I don't think anyones denies that I2 is native European in the sense that it's connected to Hunter-Gatherers, but rather its association to certain cultural groups in antiquity and early medieval period.

Awesome.

I am English then.

I identify as Anglo-Saxon from now on. Following your logic.

[Dušan]

Awesome.

I am English then.

I identify as Anglo-Saxon from now on. Following your logic.

Your autosomal results tell you that you are half proto-SLAV.
Deal with it!

[Ford]

Awesome.

I am English then.

I identify as Anglo-Saxon from now on. Following your logic.

Not really as it's not your mother tongue and you don't draw your cultural heritage from it.

[Jugo]

These dark Slavic men look nothing like southern Europeans and you know it, they are much taller and more masculine. If you ever visited real Med country you would notice the difference :)

Take your pills pls. There are children watching your comments and they are actually appauled. You are an angry person.

[Terminator98]

These dark Slavic men look nothing like southern Europeans and you know it, they are much taller and more masculine. If you ever visited real Med country you would notice the difference :)

Actually I visited Italy 2 times (Greece too but I was child so I dont remember well) and yeah, there is difference (even in facial features, South Slavs have more masculine faces) I agree with that. Anyway, I thought wog=dark (at least that is how people from North call South Europeans, including South East Europe). :)

[Jana]

Take your pills pls. There are children watching your comments and they are actually appauled. You are an angry person.

Whose sock are you, Jugo? Incelslayer?

[Ion Basescul]

Selfhating Bosniensis (Slavic part) vs selfhating Feiichy (Balkan part) vs PaleoEuropean true lover of I2 HG and honorary Balkaner. Who will win in this clash of titans, I wonder? :eusa_eh::icon_eek:

This needs more visibility.

[Jana]

Take your pills pls. There are children watching your comments and they are actually appauled. You are an angry person.

Whose sock are you, Jugo? Incelslayer?

[Maintenance]

Whose sock are you, Jugo? Incelslayer?

IncelSlayer is in love with you, he wouldn't say that.

[Jugo]

Whose sock are you, Jugo? Incelslayer?

Everybody tells you to get help you obviously need and I am a sock? Everyone here knows exactly I am right. Revert back to what I said. Like I said: Pills and quick.

[Unknown European]

It doesn't exist anywhere in the middle east or north africa, and yes, it is Slavic since it originated in what is now Ukraine and so on not so long ago which geneticists use it as a proxy of Slavic male migrants to the balkans at the early middle ages which Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and other Southern Slavs have high frequency of such haplogroup and clade. It's not only R1a that ancient Slavs belong to btw.

It does exist in the Middle east and North Africa but no where in particular high frequencies, Kurdistan is at 6%

Caucasus region
Region/Haplogroup I R1a R1b G J2 J1 E T L Q N Others Sample size
Abkhazians 3 10 3.5 47.5 26.5 2.5 0.5 0.5 5 0.5 0 0
Adygei 2.5 10.5 2.5 53.5 14.5 7.5 1 1.5 2.5 1.5 1.5 0
Armenians 4.5 5 30 11.5 22 10.5 6 4 3 1 0.5 2
Avars 0 2.5 2.5 0 4.5 66.5 7 4.5 9 0 0 2.5
Azeri 3 7 11 18 30.5 11 5.5 4 7 0 0 3
Chechens 0.5 4 2 5.5 56.5 21 0 0 7 0 0 3
Dargins 0.5 8.5 2 1.5 1.5 84 0 0 0 0 0 2
Georgians 2 9 10 30 27 16 2 1.5 1.5 1 0 0
Ingush 1 3.5 0 2 88 2.5 0 0 3 0 0 0
Kabardino-Balkarians 3.5 21 8.5 38 15.5 5 0.5 0.5 0.5 2 0.5 2
Karachay-Cherkessians 4 19.5 4.5 40.5 18.5 5.5 0.5 1 0 0.5 1.5 2
Kumyks 0 13 20 12 25 21 2.5 1.5 0 0 0 5
Lezgins 2 2.5 21.5 17.5 1.5 43.5 3.5 6 1 0 1 0
Nogays 6 14.5 18 8 13.5 13 0 0.5 0 0.5 9 16.5
Ossetians 6.5 2 10 56 15 2 3.5 2 0.5 1.5 0 1
Middle East
Region/Haplogroup I R1a R1b G J2 J1 E T L Q N Others Sample size
Iran 0.5 15.5 9.5 10 23 8.5 6.5 3 6.5 5.5 1 10.5
Iraq 4 5.5 9.5 2.5 19.5 43 9.5 3.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 1.5
South Iraq (Marsh Arabs)
0 0 3 1.5 3.5 81 6.5 0 0.5 3 0 1.5
Jordan 3.5 1.5 18 4 13 31 26 0.5 0 0 0 2.5
Kurdistan 6 10.5 11 5 23.5 12 12.5 5.5 2 0.1 0 11.5
Lebanon 5 2.5 8 6.5 26 20 17.5 5 5 2 0 2.5
Palestine 0 1.5 8.5 3 17 38.5 19.5 7 0 0 0 5
Saudi Arabia 0 5 2 3 16 40 7.5 5 2 2.5 0 17
Syria 5 10 13.5 3 17 30 11.5 5 3 0 0 2
United Arab Emirates 0 7.5 4 4 10 35 11.5 5 3 2 0 8
Yemen 0 0 0 1.5 8.5 72.5 13 0 0 0 0 0
North Africa
Region/Haplogroup I R1a R1b G J2 J1 E T L Q N Others Sample size
Algeria 0 0.5 9.5 0.5 5 22 59 0 0 0.5 0 3
Egypt 0.5 2 6 5.5 6.5 21 46 6 1 0.5 0 5
Morocco 0 0 4.5 0.5 1.5 6.5 83 0 0 0 0 4
Tunisia 0 0.5 2 0.5 3 16.5 72 1 0 0 0 5.5

[PaleoEuropean]

A Slav is someone who speaks a Slavic language, as it's an ethno-linguistic group. Just as Germanics and Romance people are. And I don't think anyones denies that I2 is native European in the sense that it's connected to Hunter-Gatherers, but rather its association to certain cultural groups in antiquity and early medieval period.

True but his question was just the origin, he never asked why it was concentrated there. I fully agree that a good chunk of the I2 population could have been re-introduced through Slavic speakers. I wouldn't think of Slavs as a single people until Rus though because generally they didn't play well with each other. There wouldn't be a major difference in Balkan people and Pre-Slavic Eastern Europeans, they both are heavy mix of HG and Pastoral, Balkaners would just have a little more Neolithic farmer thrown in like they do today. There was always mixing between all of the cultures we are talking about except for some short periods in the bigger scheme of things. Slavic by your definition sure, I could agree with that. But as for an invasion or anything who really knows, without evidence it's all theory and conjecture. That's why I defaulted to the actual origin which is true, I2a-Din, regardless of the reason for it's concentration today; is Paleo-Balkan. Maybe I am taking things to literally.

[Jana]

It does exist in the Middle east and North Africa but no where in particular high frequencies, Kurdistan is at 6%

Caucasus region
Region/Haplogroup I R1a R1b G J2 J1 E T L Q N Others Sample size
Abkhazians 3 10 3.5 47.5 26.5 2.5 0.5 0.5 5 0.5 0 0
Adygei 2.5 10.5 2.5 53.5 14.5 7.5 1 1.5 2.5 1.5 1.5 0
Armenians 4.5 5 30 11.5 22 10.5 6 4 3 1 0.5 2
Avars 0 2.5 2.5 0 4.5 66.5 7 4.5 9 0 0 2.5
Azeri 3 7 11 18 30.5 11 5.5 4 7 0 0 3
Chechens 0.5 4 2 5.5 56.5 21 0 0 7 0 0 3
Dargins 0.5 8.5 2 1.5 1.5 84 0 0 0 0 0 2
Georgians 2 9 10 30 27 16 2 1.5 1.5 1 0 0
Ingush 1 3.5 0 2 88 2.5 0 0 3 0 0 0
Kabardino-Balkarians 3.5 21 8.5 38 15.5 5 0.5 0.5 0.5 2 0.5 2
Karachay-Cherkessians 4 19.5 4.5 40.5 18.5 5.5 0.5 1 0 0.5 1.5 2
Kumyks 0 13 20 12 25 21 2.5 1.5 0 0 0 5
Lezgins 2 2.5 21.5 17.5 1.5 43.5 3.5 6 1 0 1 0
Nogays 6 14.5 18 8 13.5 13 0 0.5 0 0.5 9 16.5
Ossetians 6.5 2 10 56 15 2 3.5 2 0.5 1.5 0 1
Middle East
Region/Haplogroup I R1a R1b G J2 J1 E T L Q N Others Sample size
Iran 0.5 15.5 9.5 10 23 8.5 6.5 3 6.5 5.5 1 10.5
Iraq 4 5.5 9.5 2.5 19.5 43 9.5 3.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 1.5
South Iraq (Marsh Arabs)
0 0 3 1.5 3.5 81 6.5 0 0.5 3 0 1.5
Jordan 3.5 1.5 18 4 13 31 26 0.5 0 0 0 2.5
Kurdistan 6 10.5 11 5 23.5 12 12.5 5.5 2 0.1 0 11.5
Lebanon 5 2.5 8 6.5 26 20 17.5 5 5 2 0 2.5
Palestine 0 1.5 8.5 3 17 38.5 19.5 7 0 0 0 5
Saudi Arabia 0 5 2 3 16 40 7.5 5 2 2.5 0 17
Syria 5 10 13.5 3 17 30 11.5 5 3 0 0 2
United Arab Emirates 0 7.5 4 4 10 35 11.5 5 3 2 0 8
Yemen 0 0 0 1.5 8.5 72.5 13 0 0 0 0 0
North Africa
Region/Haplogroup I R1a R1b G J2 J1 E T L Q N Others Sample size
Algeria 0 0.5 9.5 0.5 5 22 59 0 0 0.5 0 3
Egypt 0.5 2 6 5.5 6.5 21 46 6 1 0.5 0 5
Morocco 0 0 4.5 0.5 1.5 6.5 83 0 0 0 0 4
Tunisia 0 0.5 2 0.5 3 16.5 72 1 0 0 0 5.5

No it doesn't, I2 in Kurdistan has absolutely nothing to do with Slavic I2a.

[Bosniensis]

I2 is original West Med carrier (check Sardinians)

I2a1b's ancestors ALSO original West Med carriers.

Baltic admixture came through female lines end of story.

end of story.

It's simple as that.

R1a is original Slavic autosomal carrier.


R1 are Indo Europeans

I2 are ancient Anatolian Western Mediterranean people.

[Jana]

I2 is original West Med carrier (check Sardinians)

I2a1b's ancestors ALSO original West Med carriers.

Baltic admixture came through female lines end of story.

end of story.

It's simple as that.

R1a is original Baltic carrier.


R1 are Indo Europeans

I2 are ancient Anatolian Western Mediterranean people.

I2 is original WHG lineage, so extremelly northern European and white admixture peaking today in Baltic region.

West Med (neolithic) original lineage is G2a.

Deal with it.

[PaleoEuropean]

I2 is original WHG lineage, so extremelly northern European and white admixture peaking today in Baltic region.

Admixture doesn't mean anything though. You get a random 50/50 from both your parents and people recombinate all the time.

[Jana]

So, your Arabic face is total oposite of original I2 carriers who looked more like dark skinned Finnish user Harkonnen.

You would be parriah among them darkie.

[Jana]

Admixture doesn't mean anything though. You get a random 50/50 from both your parents and people recombinate all the time.

WHG autosomal was extremelly northern, much more than in modern northern Europeans. Even Sicilian WHGs were 100% northern European genetically.

And their facial features were more northern and robust than any modern people.

Should I mention none of them had mud (brown) eye color but only blue?

Those are facts.

[Salonikios]

If it is Slavic why it is more common among Western Balkanites but not Poles or Russians that have more Slavic admixture?

[Terminator98]

I2 is original West Med carrier (check Sardinians)

I2a1b's ancestors ALSO original West Med carriers.

Baltic admixture came through female lines end of story.

end of story.

It's simple as that.

R1a is original Slavic autosomal carrier.


R1 are Indo Europeans

I2 are ancient Anatolian Western Mediterranean people.

So, Hunther-Gatherers nailed hot Med ladies. Interesting.

[Ford]

So, your Arabic face is total oposite of original I2 carriers who looked more like dark skinned Finnish user Harkonnen.

You would be parriah among them darkie.

They looked like Nordics after 2 months vacation in Thailand xD

https://i.imgur.com/pIokGsw.jpg

[Brutus]

I2 does exist in some cases in Mesopotamia and the Levant, but this clade? Clearly Balkan.

[Ford]

If it is Slavic why it is more common among Western Balkanites but not Poles or Russians that have more Slavic admixture?

Founder effect. Also, it exists in relatively high frequencies in Ukraine and Belarus (where it also has its peak diversity).

[Dorian]

If it is Slavic why it is more common among Western Balkanites but not Poles or Russians that have more Slavic admixture?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXkjtpGCFI

[Bosniensis]

So, Hunther-Gatherers nailed hot Med ladies. Interesting.

Watch Series. Rome: Rise and Fall of the Empire

It explains how Germanic people prized most Italian women whom they took as a war bounty.

They did the same to Balkans, took our women, so that males from Balkans had to take their women.

After Dalmatian Illyrian cavalry returned from Persian wars as a part of Roman army, they had no women... and went to hungary to get some from Avars.

Someone will laugh but that's how the world worked.

[Leto]

There was a half Jordanian (maternally Russian) on TA and his Y DNA was I-M223 (I2).

[Jana]

If it is Slavic why it is more common among Western Balkanites but not Poles or Russians that have more Slavic admixture?

Because they didn't encounter founder effect like dinaric Slavs living outside of feudal system. I am fairly certain migrating Slavs had lower I2 but it expoloded after settlement in dinaric alps and baby boom among free Slavic sheperds.

Slavic I2 is 25% in northern Ukraine (Polesia), most Slavic region on earth.

[Dušan]

If it is Slavic why it is more common among Western Balkanites but not Poles or Russians that have more Slavic admixture?

11 million in Russia and Ukraine.

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png

[Jana]

I2 does exist in some cases in Mesopotamia and the Levant, but this clade? Clearly Balkan.

No, clearly Slavic. Because there are much more north than south slavs carrying it dummie.

[Jugo]

They looked like Nordics after 2 months vacation in Thailand xD

https://i.imgur.com/pIokGsw.jpg

Who is this African goddess?:D

[Ion Basescul]

There was a half Jordanian (maternally Russian) on TA and his Y DNA was I-M223 (I2).

That branch does not fall under I-Y3120, which what this thread is about if you ignore 99% of the comments.

[Bosniensis]

11 million in Russia and Ukraine.

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png

Bigger country, easier and fast spreading of populace, Russia BOOMED after 16th century and it expanded X times.

Also it is undisputed fact that all I2 came through Anatolia and Balkans.

[Leto]

That branch does not fall under I-Y3120, which what this thread is about if you ignore 99% of the comments.
I am aware of that, just a side remark. Someone mentioned the Levant or Middle East.

[CommonSense]

There was a half Jordanian (maternally Russian) on TA and his Y DNA was I-M223 (I2).

I looked it up and the branches of that subclade have carriers throughout western Europe. He's likely a descendant of one of the crusaders.

[Dušan]

Of the 24 million I2-din carriers, the majority (13 million) are from Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland.
Not from the Balkans.

[Jana]

I am aware of that, just a side remark. Someone mentioned the Levant or Middle East.

It's Germanic type of I2 usually, but to my suprise in SE Euro ancient paper lot of old Balkan I2 fell under that branch (it's extremelly rare in Balkans today and peaks in Germany)

[Jugo]

No, clearly Slavic. Because there are much more north than south slavs carrying it dummie.

I don't want to be the one to judge but for a "Croatian" person you sound extremely Germans with all the unsophisticated insults which are thrown around like commands. Certainly you don't sound neither nonSlavic nor Slavic Balkan, you sound like a Kraut.

[PaleoEuropean]

I looked it up and the branches of that subclade have carriers throughout western Europe. He's likely a descendant of one of the crusaders.

I2 was common among Italian Normans from whom came many great Crusaders. The progeny of Hauteville being among them.

[Bosniensis]

11 million in Russia and Ukraine.

https://i.imgur.com/3rGwa1s.png

Thraco-Cimmerians who were cousins of Dacians

They lived in Ukraine and Russia.... I assume they are I2

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

[Jugo]

No, clearly Slavic. Because there are much more north than south slavs carrying it dummie.

I2 is Cromagnon, neither Slavic nor Germanic or Balkan. It's related with Cromagnon migrations to Europe.

[Ljubic]

So Bosniensis doesnt believe in the "De Administrando Imperio" and the fact that he speaks a slavic language with family and aquaintances? Does he think this all is a big Byzantine conspiracy? We South Slavs wouldnt have such high amounts of Northeastern-european admixture without slavic invasions considering our geographical position.

[Jana]

I don't want to be the one to judge but for a "Croatian" person you sound extremely Germans with all the unsophisticated insults which are thrown around like commands. Certainly you don't sound neither nonSlavic nor Slavic Balkan, you sound like a Kraut.

I am more Slavic than anything else in DNA, culture and identity. Deal with it sock.

[Jugo]

I am more Slavic than anything else in DNA, culture and identity. Deal with it sock.

Deal with your bullshit, sperg? No thanks. You aren't actually Slavic. 0 plus 0 or "more Slavic" is still really just 0.

[Bosniensis]

So Bosniensis doesnt believe in the "De Administrando Imperio" and the fact that he speaks a slavic language with family and aquaintances? Does he think this all is a big Byzantine conspiracy? We South Slavs wouldnt have such high amounts of Northeastern-european admixture without slavic invasions considering our geographical position.

We have 30% R1a

Slavic invasions happened.

[Moje ime]

Sincerely, without Vlach component, we would be melancholic, borring, cold people. Without the Slavic component we would be like lazy disorganized mediterraneans.

This mix makes us superior.

+1 absolutely agree.

[Salonikios]

Ok another question If it is Slavic what is native Balkan haplogroup? Is there none? Is it E-v13?

[Dušan]

Thraco-Cimmerians who were cousins of Dacians

They lived in Ukraine and Russia.... I assume they are I2

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

Thraco-Cimmerian sample we have is dominantly paleo-Balkan by autosomal genetics.

https://i.imgur.com/28iL9U8.png

There are not very much I2-din among these people listed above.

[Jana]

Deal with your bullshit, sperg? No thanks. You aren't actually Slavic. 0 plus 0 or "more Slavic" is still really just 0.

Don't lecture Slavs on what they are, dog legged Jap.
Rather worry why your people have such short and bended legs like chimpanzee

:o

[Jana]

We have 30% R1a

Slavic invasions happened.

No, you don't. Bosniaks have significantly lower R1a percentage than 30%.

[blueeyes]

If it is Slavic why it is more common among Western Balkanites but not Poles or Russians that have more Slavic admixture?

South Slavs have mostly native Balkan blood

Lithuanians are more Slavic than South Slavs
https://i.ibb.co/pXy0Y1C/Distribution-Haplogroup-R1a-Y-DNA.png

[Leto]

Croats are like 60-70% Early Slavic.

[Ljubic]

We have 30% R1a

Slavic invasions happened.

30% is overblown. Thats just Croatia with the most affected part being the north. You tell me Hercegovina is 65% Native Balkan by paternal line even with this many pagan slavic tribes being recorded there and the Dalmatian hinterland? R1a is relatively low there you know.

Edit: Just realized that considering the rest of the Haplogroups which are mostly E and J, they would be almost entirely Balkan if I2-Din was native. I dont buy this.

[Jana]

Ok another question If it is Slavic what is native Balkan haplogroup? Is there none? Is it E-v13?

In bronze and iron age Croatian samples were found J2b2 and R1b L23 haplogroups, peaking in modern day Albanians. Depends on part of SE Europe though.

E-V13 still hasn't been found but rumors say lot of it will be in Roman graves from upcoming ancient Serbia paper.

[Salonikios]

Sardinians are Slavic too then.

[Jana]

Croats are like 60-70% Early Slavic.

:thumb001:

[Jana]

Sardinians are Slavic too then.

No stupid, they have no Slavic I2 clades. Repeat me your IQ score, 70?

PS stop larping as Russian, Turk.

[Jugo]

Don't lecture Slavs on what they are, dog legged Jap.
Rather worry why your people have such short and bended legs like chimpanzee

:o


East Europid


Description:


"Often depigmented, relatively short-limbed, medium to short-skulled group, found in its highest frequencies in Eastern Europe. Faces tend to be flatter than in other Europeans..."

"snub noses common, chin weak, forehead not very high and receding, eyelid narrow.

You were saying? You are only my half but my full-Asian brother (I am only half). Deal with it. My limbs are even far longer than your tiny shortstuff limbs...if you are a Slav. Or you are going to change ethnicity now? Wear another cloak on top of the other one. You are a tiny-legged midget Slav.

[Bosniensis]

I repeat

Original I2 Autosomal is:

Western Mediterranean

OTHERWISE

Sardinians would be Baltids

[Jana]

i am complexed ugly chink

Please leave the thread, mud eyes. Thank you.

[MiloshN]

I am I2a, long live I2a o7

[Salonikios]

No stupid, they have no Slavic I2 clades. Repeat me your IQ score, 70?

PS stop larping as Russian, Turk.

Please don't be a vulgar gopnik. I am being nice here.

[Jana]

Please don't be a vulgar gopnik. I am being nice here.

You are Turk pretending to be Russian, so you are not nice but trying to deceive people. Also you must be stupid to call Sardinians Slavic when their I2 subclade separated from ours more than 20 000 years ago.

It' similar to claim Kygyz are Slavic because they have tons of R1a, completely unrelated to Balto-Slavic R1a clades.

Educate yourself or keep quiet.

[Bosniensis]

You are Turk pretending to be Russian, so you are not nice but trying to deceive people. Also you must be stupid to call Sardinians Slavic when their I2 subclade separated from ours more than 20 000 years ago.

It' similar to claim Kygyz are Slavic because they have tons of R1a, completely unrelated to Balto-Slavic R1a clades.

Educate yourself or keep quiet.

Syrians have History spanning 10.000 years.

Are you saying they are unrelated to Each other?

Also Sardinian and our haplogroup is separated 7000 years .. not more

[Salonikios]

You are Turk pretending to be Russian, so you are not nice but trying to deceive people. Also you must be stupid to call Sardinians Slavic when their I2 subclade separated from ours more than 20 000 years ago.

It' similar to claim Kygyz are Slavic because they have tons of R1a, completely unrelated to Balto-Slavic R1a clades.

Educate yourself or keep quiet.

All R1a people have Indo-European ancestry like all I1 or I2 people have old European native ancestry. That is what I know. I believe what science says.

[Loki]

Our I2 is not but Slavic.

It was assimilated by some Slavic people, but was not originally Slavic by definition. It predates Slavic.

[Ford]

All R1a people have Indo-European ancestry like all I1 or I2 people have old European native ancestry. That is what I know. I believe what science says.

This is not true as R1a predates Indo-Europeans. I don't think you know what science is.

[Joso]

I repeat

Original I2 Autosomal is:

Western Mediterranean

OTHERWISE

Sardinians would be Baltids

Paleo-sardinians/berid phenotype don't look much different of the baltid one, apart of pigmentation.

[Jana]

It was assimilated by some Slavic people, but was not originally Slavic by definition. It predates Slavic.

It took part in early Slavic ethnogenesis and spread here by Slavs. All hgs predate Slavs or any other group.

I don't care, in my father's branch all samples have slavic paternal ancestry from both east, west and south slavs.

My autosomal DNA is in my signature, compared to ancient samples, that's all I have to say.

Proud Slavic :)

[Jana]

Double

[MiloshN]

Fu*k Shqip E-V13, long live I2a!!!

[Leto]

PS stop larping as Russian, Turk.
Yes! I too want him to stop larping. In Russia he'd be a fruit seller.

[Ion Basescul]

Ok another question If it is Slavic what is native Balkan haplogroup? Is there none? Is it E-v13?

I'd guess on a mix of J2a in the South, J2b by the Adriatic and E-V13 on the edges of Central and Eastern Europe. R1b-Z2103 should also be present throughout.

[Bosniensis]

Paleo-sardinians/berid phenotype don't look much different of the baltid one, apart of pigmentation.

They don't have Slavic autosomal.. nothing.. 0.

How come?

I2a1a = 0 Slavic Autosomal
I2a1b = 40-50%


I2a1a did not live next to R1a's
I2a1b did live next to R1a's

Which one is slavic

hmmm


One came through Balkans and Anatolia as a part of Ancient IJ movement
Another came from Maykor Sintashta etc..

Slavic langauges have enormous similarity with R1a Indian Sanskrit people
Sardinian I2a1a are the cleanest and most precise living Latin example.


Even a 3yr old baby can see this one.

[Jugo]

Fu*k Shqip E-V13, long live I2a!!!

You are Albanian, bro.

[MiloshN]

You are Albanian, bro.

Yes, problem?
ps. My Albanian brother is about 3000 years away from me. A pity. :(

[Leto]

So I2 in the Balkans is supposed to be Slavic but when I said R1a in Romania and Hungary is Slavic some people criticized me.

[Jugo]

Yes, problem?

The complete opposite, zemra.

[MiloshN]

The complete opposite, zemra.

I'm sorry that my Albanian brother is only close to me for about 3000 years, that it is at least after Christ ... :( #sadface Some fucking Ukrainian is closer to me ...

[Loki]

It took part in early Slavic ethnogenesis and spread here by Slavs. All hgs predate Slavs or any other group.

I don't care, in my father's branch all samples have slavic paternal ancestry from both east, west and south slavs.

My autosomal DNA is in my signature, compared to ancient samples, that's all I have to say.

Proud Slavic :)

I'm not so sure about that. The Slavs who entered the Balkan region were likely for the majority carriers of R1a, and they then picked up the I2 when in the Balkans.

[vbnetkhio]

It was assimilated by some Slavic people, but was not originally Slavic by definition. It predates Slavic.

Slavs are 3000-2300 years old, and i2a-din is 2100 years old.

[Caballero]

There is a possibility it's a Dacian-Getae marker IMO.

[Loki]

Slavs are 3000-2300 years old, and i2a-din is 2100 years old.

Doesn't invalidate what I said.

[Caballero]

Otherwise, highest diversity is found inbetween Romania/Ukraine.

Romanians, Moldavians have a lot of percentage as well.

[Jana]

I'm not so sure about that. The Slavs who entered the Balkan region were likely for the majority carriers of R1a, and they then picked up the I2 when in the Balkans.

Nope. All ancient I2 din samples we have so far are Slavic, and balkan clades descend from eastern euro clades. No I2-din has been found in pre Slavic Balkan samples.

R1a is too low in Balkans to explain our huge and predominant Slavic autosomal admixture, sorry.

It is Slavic just like I1 is Germanic.

[Jana]

Otherwise, highest diversity is found inbetween Romania/Ukraine.

Romanians, Moldavians have a lot of percentage as well.

Ukraine, not Romania or Moldova.
Both S and N cluster have higgest diversity there.

In Balkans Bulgaria has decent diversity sugesting that it entered balkans there with danubian slavs from east europe mostly and not central europe (only 2 clades connect to that region)

[Caballero]

Ukraine, not Romania or Moldova.
Both S and N cluster have higgest diversity there.

In Balkans Bulgaria has decent diversity sugesting that it came from danubian slavs from east europe mostly and not central europe (only 2 clades)

I am pretty sure Nordvedt estimated that the borders between Romania and Ukraine. There is a possibility Getae and Slavs shared the I2a2-Din among themselves. It's just hypothetical from my side.

[Jana]

There is a possibility it's a Dacian-Getae marker IMO.

Absolutely not. Dacians never settled in Croatia.and BiH where I2 din peaks.

We have nothing to do with these people, zero.

[Caballero]

Absolutely not. Dacians never settled in Croatia.and BiH where I2 din peaks.

We have nothing to do with these people, zero.

I am not saying Dacians settled, i am saying they could have well been assimilated by Slavs up there. Atleast, a portion of them.

[Jana]

I am pretty sure Nordvedt estimated that the borders between Romania and Ukraine. There is a possibility Getae and Slavs shared the I2a2-Din among themselves. It's just hypothetical from my side.

That was long ago, most recent paper from Ukrainian scientists few years ago puts it in Ukraine and said Balkan (dinS) cluster descends from Dniepr-Carpathian cluster (dinN)

:)

[vbnetkhio]

I'm not so sure about that. The Slavs who entered the Balkan region were likely for the majority carriers of R1a, and they then picked up the I2 when in the Balkans.

i2a-din was found in early medieval East, West and South Slavic samples, so proto-Slavs already had it in their homeland.

[Jana]

I am not saying Dacians settled, i am saying they could have well been assimilated by Slavs up there. Atleast, a portion of them.

But it deepest origin is celtic lands, so I would say rather some migration from western europe which blended with R1a proto Balto Slavs and created proto Slavs.

But we will see.

[Caballero]

The good stories that i am reading around is that E-V13 is Slavic-Carpathian in origin lol. Zdravljeto.

[Ion Basescul]

So I2 in the Balkans is supposed to be Slavic but when I said R1a in Romania and Hungary is Slavic some people criticized me.

R1a is more complicated, as there are a lot of branches and not all of them seem to be connected to the Slavs.
I2a is easy because literally 99% of it in Southeast Europe falls under Y3120, which is linked to the period of Slavic migrations.

[Caballero]

But it deepest origin is celtic lands, so I would say rather some migration from western europe which blended with R1a proto Balto Slavs and created proto Slavs.

But we will see.

We need more consistent aDNA results, not those 1 sample Y-DNA reveal like the Etruscan or Dalmatian(if he was Pre-Illyrian or Illyrian anyway). That's like playing bingo.

[Daos777]

WHG autosomal was extremelly northern, much more than in modern northern Europeans. Even Sicilian WHGs were 100% northern European genetically.

And their facial features were more northern and robust than any modern people.

Should I mention none of them had mud (brown) eye color but only blue?

Those are facts.

WHG was also darker than any wog dreamt of being.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[-Scar-]

Nope. All ancient I2 din samples we have so far are Slavic, and balkan clades descend from eastern euro clades. No I2-din has been found in pre Slavic Balkan samples.

R1a is too low in Balkans to explain our huge and predominant Slavic autosomal admixture, sorry.

It is Slavic just like I1 is Germanic.

Ancient DNA proves significant impact of the Slavic colonization, Croats push 70% on average. Even Bulgarians have at least 40%. This whole ''Slavic invasions were a cultural exchange but had no great genetic impact" is getting nailed since those last 3 years.

[Dušan]

Ancient DNA proves significant impact of the Slavic colonization, Croats push 70% on average. Even Bulgarians have at least 40%. This whole ''Slavic invasions were a cultural exchange but had no great genetic impact" is getting nailed since those last 3 years.

+1

And Serbs 50-60%.

[Blondie]

I2 is Cromagnon, neither Slavic nor Germanic or Balkan. It's related with Cromagnon migrations to Europe.

First of all you should learn the difference between I2 and subtypes of I2, because we are talking about the last one and these are not same. Indeed the pure version of I2 is paleo-european, but this type doesn't exist nowadays only it's subtypes and these subtypes (like I2a-din) is not so old and connected to the slavic ethnogenesis, other subtypes connected to others ethnogenesis for example r1b-u106 is germanic, n1c1 is uralic etc.

[Bosniensis]

First of all you should learn the difference between I2 and subtypes of I2, because we are talking about the last one and these are not same. Indeed the pure version of I2 is paleo-european, but this type doesn't exist nowadays only it's subtypes and these subtypes (like I2a-din) is not so old and connected to the slavic ethnogenesis, other subtypes connected to others ethnogenesis for example r1b-u106 is germanic, n1c1 is uralic etc.

I2-din isn't different to base I2... it just has a mutation.

Father of the first I2-din wasn't I2-din.

It's a not different haplogroup, it's the same people.

Sardinian and Bosniak I2 is the same.

[Blondie]

I2-din isn't different to base I2... it just has a mutation.

Father of the first I2-din wasn't I2-din.

It's a not different haplogroup, it's the same people.

Sardinian and Bosniak I2 is the same.

By this logic everyone are african in the world, because ancestors of humans came from there.

[Caballero]

By the way, for the sake of truth, Slavs didn't invade Illyrians, they migrated in numbers after the devastating Justinian pandemics which weakened the Illyrian population. Otherwise, on their best i seriously doubt Illyrians will allow Slavs to migrate en masse.


The plague pandemic in 541–543 and successive outbreaks of the disease till the latter half of the 8th century caused a deep demographic crisis in the Eastern Roman Empire. The most important effects of the plague were a shortage of manpower and a growing importance of marginal barbarian populations, which had suffered less or not at all from the disease. Demographic, political and economic consequences of the pandemic likely caused or at least facilitated Slavic expansion in the Balkans between the 6th and 8th century. The Slavs began to raid intensively and then settle the European provinces of the Roman Empire soon after the first outbreak of the plague and available textual evidence suggests that this region was depopulated by the disease and neglected by the government. During the 7th century, the Empire’s administration and economy collapsed due to the effects of the plague and the existing system of land taxation and central provisioning of professional armies must have been replaced by regional organization of territorial troops recruited from free peasant farmers. In the new circumstances, the Slavs, who had in the meantime re-populated the Balkans, constituted an abundant source of manpower for a restored Empire.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/270956735_The_plague_pandemic_and_Slavic_expansion _in_the_6th-8th_centuries

[PaleoEuropean]

WHG was also darker than any wog dreamt of being.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not really though, you can't determine a humans skin color unless you have a sample of their skin, melanin production is not easily predictable.

[vbnetkhio]

By the way, for the sake of truth, Slavs didn't invade Illyrians, they migrated in numbers after the devastating Justinian pandemics which weakened the Illyrian population. Otherwise, on their best i seriously doubt Illyrians will allow Slavs to migrate en masse.

Roman.

[Jana]

Thread was opened by Serbian troll anyway, who just wanted to make fights, on SRB/CRO forums he promotes Slavic origin of I2 din clades and makes fun of autochtonists as he is far from stupid.

[Konstantinos]

Ad nauseam, why can't we wait for ancient samples. If after extensive sampling it's not found in Balkans before 5th c AD it means it came with Slavs, then take the next step to investigate if it was originally Slavic or came from elsewhere.

[Jana]

Ad nauseam, why can't we wait for ancient samples. If after extensive sampling it's not found in Balkans before 5th c AD it means it came with Slavs, then take the next step to investigate if it was originally Slavic or came from elsewhere.

Only after you do the same for all other hg and stop claiming they are this and that. Because by that criteria you have absolutely no proof for anything :rolleyes:
It's Slavic, live with it.

And yes we have I2-din ancient samples which are slavic, unlike R1a.

[vbnetkhio]

Ad nauseam, why can't we wait for ancient samples. If after extensive sampling it's not found in Balkans before 5th c AD it means it came with Slavs, then take the next step to investigate if it was originally Slavic or came from elsewhere.

you can wait for decades. there will never be an extensive enough ancient sampling to use them as a sole proof.

instead, we can draw conclusions from a combination of ancient samples and the distribution and dating of subclades. why ignore the other part?

[Konstantinos]

Only after you do the same for all other hg and stop claiming they are this and that. Because by that criteria you have absolutely no proof for anything :rolleyes:
It's Slavic, live with it.

And yes we have I2-din ancient samples which are slavic, unlike R1a.

You are deranged. Show me where I said I have proof for anything. Instead I'm one of the few who speaks very cautiously. Belonging to ancient Slavs doesn't mean it wasn't present in other people too. Please show me the peer-reviewed studies for what is Slavic and what not and the relevant quotes of the scientists, I'll wait. Fuck off otherwise.

[Konstantinos]

you can wait for decades. there will never be an extensive enough ancient sampling to use them as a sole proof.

instead, we can draw conclusions from a combination of ancient samples and the distribution and dating of subclades. why ignore the other part?

I'm saying without enough ancient samples we can't be 100% sure. The more info we have the more educated guesses we can make. Right now we know that I2-Din underwent a founder effect roughly coinciding(but not precisely) with the arrival of Slavs in the Balkans and everyone under this clade descends from this MRCA. This doesn't exclude the possibility that this clade was present in the Balkans and was swept by. Couple with the fact that the assumed more "Slavic" Slavs(you know what I mean), East and West are dominated by R1a while South Slavs are different autosomally and I2-Din mostly. Coincidence or not, this can be properly answered by ancient DNA. If we don't have enough, we can't take the most possible scenario and present it as fact.

[Jana]

You are deranged. Show me where I said I have proof for anything. Instead I'm one of the few who speaks very cautiously. Belonging to ancient Slavs doesn't mean it wasn't present in other people too. Please show me the peer-reviewed studies for what is Slavic and what not and the relevant quotes of the scientists, I'll wait. Fuck off otherwise.

Show me peer-reviewed studies who claims Greek are of Greek origin and not of other (foreign) people, otherwise fuck off.
Bonus: my paternal side subclade, who does it bleong to, ancient Martians? :rolleyes:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A5913/

Now leave us alone.

[Jana]

From wiki:

However, in comparison to older research which argued a prehistoric autochthonous origin of the haplogroup I2 in Croatia,[nb 1] as already Battaglia et al. (2009) observed highest variance of the haplogroup in Ukraine, Zupan et al. (2013) noted that it suggests it arrived with Slavic migration from the homeland which was in present-day Ukraine.[16] The most recent research by O.M. Utevska (2017), concluded that the haplogroup STR haplotypes have the highest diversity in Ukraine, with ancestral STR marker result "DYS448=20" comprising "Dnieper-Carpathian" cluster, while younger derived result "DYS448=19" comprising the "Balkan cluster" which is predominant among the South Slavs.[17] This "Balkan cluster" also has the highest variance in Ukraine, which indicates that the very high frequency in the Western Balkan is because of a founder effect.[17] Utevska calculated that the STR cluster divergence and its secondary expansion from the middle reaches of the Dnieper river or from Eastern Carpathians towards the Balkan peninsula happened approximately 2,860 ± 730 years ago, relating it to the times before Slavs, but much after the decline of the Tripolye culture[17]. More specifically, the cluster is represented by a single SNP, I-PH908, known as I2a1a2b1a1a1c in ISOGG phylogenetic tree (2018), and according to YFull YTree it formed and had TMRCA approximately 1,800 YBP.[15]

Source: http://nrcrm.gov.ua/science/councils/dissertation/

Now go questioning why are north Germanics mainly I1 while western ones are R1b, stupid slavophobe.

[Konstantinos]

Show me peer-reviewed studies who claims Greek are of Greek origin and not of other (foreign) people, otherwise fuck off.
Bonus: my paternal side subclade, who does it bleong to, ancient Martians? :rolleyes:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A5913/

Now leave us alone.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/

"We could also compare the Mycenaeans—again, the first speakers of the Greek language—to modern people from Greece who are very similar to them, but with lower early Neolithic ancestry"

These are quotes from scientists. Now can you do the same?

[vbnetkhio]

I'm saying without enough ancient samples we can't be 100% sure. The more info we have the more educated guesses we can make. Right now we know that I2-Din underwent a founder effect roughly coinciding(but not precisely) with the arrival of Slavs in the Balkans and everyone under this clade descends from this MRCA.

No, the TMRCA was 2000 years ago, +- a few hundred. Some scholars place the ethnogenesis of proto-Slavs around 200 bc. That's the closest event relevant to the TMRCA i can think of. Some place it much earlier though.



This doesn't exclude the possibility that this clade was present in the Balkans and was swept by.

you are forgetting west and east Slavs spread i2a-din with them too.

Even if the "i2a-din people" were originally non-Slavic they:
1) lived right next to Polesia
2) were completely absorbed by early Slavs
3) mixed so thouroughly with early Slavs that wherever Slavs went, they brought i2a-din with them.

or it was just Slavs.


Couple with the fact that the assumed more "Slavic" Slavs(you know what I mean), East and West are dominated by R1a while South Slavs are different autosomally and I2-Din mostly. Coincidence or not, this can be properly answered by ancient DNA. If we don't have enough, we can't take the most possible scenario and present it as fact.

Serbs have around 35% i2a-din, but 25% of the very young subclade I-PH908. take that away, and there is 10% i2a-din, which is quite low even for a lot of east and west Slavic regions. We have a low i2a-din variance, in other words.

This is the rule number one of haplogroups. More important than anyhing else.

[Jana]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/

"We could also compare the Mycenaeans—again, the first speakers of the Greek language—to modern people from Greece who are very similar to them, but with lower early Neolithic ancestry"

These are quotes from scientists. Now can you do the same?

70% similar, yes. I posted you scientific work about I2-din by Ukrainian scientsts. In my dad subclade are only people with Slavic paternal origin, and not anyone else.

Deal with it Greek mongrelised with Slavs, Vlachs and Albanians.

[Jana]

Thankfully we have Mycenean genomes online. They are much closer to south Italians than to modern Macedonian Greeks, heheh.

Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean

0.04621737 Italian_Calabria
0.04809307 Italian_Campania
0.04995370 Italian_Apulia
0.04999673 Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882 Sicilian_East
0.05100425 Greek_Kos
0.05364111 Italian_Jew
0.05422879 Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403 Italian_Molise
0.05550294 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05562512 Greek_Crete
0.05592299 Greek_Izmir
0.05626354 Maltese
0.05656327 Italian_Lazio
0.05678270 Romaniote_Jew
0.05702455 Greek_Peloponnese
0.05864589 Sicilian_West
0.05865506 Italian_Umbria
0.05947335 Sephardic_Jew
0.06132990 Italian_Marche
0.06302908 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.06323574 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06498297 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.06505368 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06516684 Cypriot
0.06542537 French_Corsica
0.06565772 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06637160 Italian_Tuscany
0.07008565 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07037674 Greek_Thessaly
0.07139643 Moroccan_Jew
0.07313342 Albanian
0.07453769 Tunisian_Jew
0.07526313 Italian_Piedmont
0.07622365 Syrian_Jew
0.07658673 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.07700188 Libyan_Jew
0.07977134 Swiss_Italian
0.08043459 Italian_Lombardy
0.08231298 Italian_Bergamo
0.08324580 Sardinian
0.08393354 Lebanese_Christian
0.08397626 Druze
0.08401142 Italian_Liguria
0.08704086 Lebanese_Druze
0.08816327 Italian_Veneto
0.08944131 Karaite_Egypt
0.09038954 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.09124607 Lebanese_Muslim
0.09219824 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

[Konstantinos]

70% similar, yes. I posted you scientific work about I2-din by Ukrainian scientsts. In my dad subclade are only people with Slavic paternal origin, and not anyone else.

Deal with it Greek mongrelised with Slavs, Vlachs and Albanians.

70% is out of your ass, they don't mention any percentage. This is Mycenaean Greeks, before even the Dorian invasion. Completion of the process at least for Greece proper was after 800 BC. Right now it's your word against scientists. Meanwhile check the wording of the Slavic studies, they use suggest or could a lot, because they are cautious as the picture is not complete yet. You have clear issues so I won't continue any further here.

[Jana]

70% is out of your ass, they don't mention any percentage. This is Mycenaean Greeks, before even the Dorian invasion. Completion of the process at least for Greece proper was after 800 BC. Right now it's your word against scientists. Meanwhile check the wording of the Slavic studies, they use suggest or could a lot, because they are cautious as the picture is not complete yet. You have clear issues so I won't continue any further here.

We don't care, Slavs are not xenophobic like Greeks and know they mixed with other groups.
You don't cluster with Myceneans, not even close. Keep dreaming about Hellenic purity nuttie.

[bained]

"Utevska calculated that the STR cluster divergence and its secondary expansion from the middle reaches of the Dnieper river or from Eastern Carpathians towards the Balkan peninsula happened approximately 2,860 ± 730 years ago, relating it to the times before Slavs"

Do you even read what you post?

[Jana]

"Utevska calculated that the STR cluster divergence and its secondary expansion from the middle reaches of the Dnieper river or from Eastern Carpathians towards the Balkan peninsula happened approximately 2,860 ± 730 years ago, relating it to the times before Slavs"

Do you even read what you post?

Do you? +- 730 years
My father's clade is from 6th century after Christ

why do you larp as Bulgar btw? You are mostly Thracian by blood.

[MoroLP]

Utevska et al. study is based on Y-STR which is less accurate than a calculation of Y-SNP done for example by YFull.

[Jugo]

First of all you should learn the difference between I2 and subtypes of I2, because we are talking about the last one and these are not same. Indeed the pure version of I2 is paleo-european, but this type doesn't exist nowadays only it's subtypes and these subtypes (like I2a-din) is not so old and connected to the slavic ethnogenesis, other subtypes connected to others ethnogenesis for example r1b-u106 is germanic, n1c1 is uralic etc.

First of all I know the difference between I2 and the subtypes of I2 and the subtype you are referring to isn't actually connected to Slavic ethnogenesis but Balkan Bronze Age as it's only 8% in Ukraine and even less in Russia. It actually doesn't make any sense to be linked to Slavic ethnogeneses (plural) as it's not literally presented in the Slavic heartlands that much but in ridiculously small percentages hence it doesn't really come from there, the Ukrainian-Russian steppes and countries. It's Balkan Bronze Age component, the subtype you are referring to.

[Jana]

First of all I know the difference between I2 and the subtypes of I2 and the subtype you are referring to isn't actually connected to Slavic ethnogenesis but Balkan Bronze Age as it's only 8% in Ukraine and even less in Russia. It actually doesn't make any sense to be linked to Slavic ethnogeneses (plural) as it's not literally presented in the Slavic heartlands that much but in ridiculously small percentages hence it doesn't really come from there, the Ukrainian-Russian steppes and countries. It's Balkan Bronze Age component, the subtype you are referring to.

There are no Balkan bronze age samples who tested positive for it so please don't make up things.
Croatian bronze age samples tested R1b-L23 and J2b2 while Bulgarian bronze age tested R1a Z93.

I2 din reaches 25% in Polesia, which is Slavic heartleand.

[Jugo]

There are no Balkan bronze age samples who tested positive for it so please don't make up things.
Croatian bronze age samples tested R1b-L23 and J2b2 while Bulgarian bronze age tested R1a Z93.

I2 din reaches 25% in Polesia, which is Slavic heartleand.

They didn't happen to find yet. We have stll few findings. Only 25? Wow that incredibly low and only shows that some of the Balkan Bronze Age peoples moved there. It's vey low compared to Bosnians who are really getting over 70%. It's more than obvious where the heartland of I2 din is and that's actually in Balkans.

[Jana]

They didn't happen to find yet. We have stll few findings. Only 25? Wow that incredibly low and only shows that some of the Balkan Bronze Age peoples moved there. It's vey low compared to Bosnians who are really getting over 70%. It's more than obvious where the heartland of I2 din is and that's actually in Balkans.

Lol no. Stop embarassing yourself. I2-din reaches 70% only in west Herzegovina Croats, not ''Bosnians''. It's much lower in Bosnia.
And west Herzegovina Croats lived in very isolated tribal communities similar like Albanians, therefore fouder effect happened.
We are talking about hundred tousand people btw.

25% is not ''incredibly low'', it's higher than amount of I2-din in Bulgaria where it can be as low as 20% depending on study.

It will never be found in Balkan BA because it has no connection to it. Balkan din clades descend from east euro ones and not the opposite.
And there is no record of any Balkan people settling into Polesia, it's purest Slavic area that exists.

[Blondie]

First of all I know the difference between I2 and the subtypes of I2 and the subtype you are referring to isn't actually connected to Slavic ethnogenesis but Balkan Bronze Age

Can you prove this? Give me any balkan bronze age I2a-din example.

[bained]

Let's pretend this never happened: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-019-00996-0

"The Karos samples’ STR data are 1 genetic distance on 17 loci in the Balkans to a Bulgarian from Montana and 2 mutation steps to a Bulgarian from Sofia, a Bulgarian from Plovdiv, and a Tuscan Albanian (see Fig. 7)."
"Archaeological findings: horse cranium (and leg bones), gold hairrings, pair of silver wire bracelets, golden ring with green glasss tone, boot mounts, arabic dirhems, gilded silver impressed belt-buckles, silver-plated sabre tache, flint, iron knife, gilded-silver mounted saber, snaffle, bridle ornaments, horse breast collar mounts, bone mouth of leather bottle, mounted bow case ornaments, remnants of quiver with rosette mounts, arrow heads, bone plates of the bow grip and horns, girth buckle, stirrups, remnants of ornamented saddle."

Not a I-S17250, closest to 3 Bulgarians and mtDNA X2f. Do you know somebody that is Bulgarian from Plovdiv and X2f? I do.