Is Finnish I1 Swedish?

[Lemminkäinen]

Opinions.

[PaleoEuropean]

I am sure there is some I1 and I2 native to the region, probably the majority is Swedish though.

[Maintenance]

Yes

[Lemminkäinen]

I am sure there is some I1 and I2 native to the region, probably the majority is Swedish though.

Why then the majority of I1 in Finland is 2500 years old or older. Why the distribution of R1b in Finland is 3.5%, although it is in Sweden 21.5%? Reasonable explanations.

[PaleoEuropean]

Why then the majority of I1 in Finland is 2500 years old or older. Why the distribution of R1b in Finland is 3.5%, although it is in Sweden 21.5%?

Most the R1b in Scandinavia comes from later German settlement. Sweden used to have German lands. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Pomerania

[Lemminkäinen]

Most the R1b in Scandinavia comes from later German settlement. Sweden used to have German lands. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Pomerania

Maybe the Swedish R1b is 400 years old, but how do you exlpain that in my own I1-clade, making it now only an example, which is 1500 years old is only one Swedish FtDna match, which actually is a debatable case, because it is an American guy and they usually prefer Swedish ancestry. I have only one Swedish match within 1500 years and around 1000 Finnish matches.

[PaleoEuropean]

Maybe the Swedish R1b is 400 years old, but how do you exlpain that in my own I1-clade, making it now only an example, which is 1500 years old is only one Swedish FtDna match, which actually is a debatable case, because it is an American guy and they usually prefer Swedish ancestry. I have only one Swedish match within 1500 years and around 1000 Finnish matches.

But what percent of Swedes and Finns have actually taken Y-Dna tests and what percent of those people are from major urban areas? Statistics aren't simple nor are they definitive. Your clade could be more ancient, it's possible but Finland wasn't heavily populated until the Viking era. Finland was probably always a path for Hunter Gathers and later Scandinavians. I would imagine there is a good degree of diversity even if its not exaggerated.

[Lemminkäinen]

But what percent of Swedes and Finns have actually taken Y-Dna tests and what percent of those people are from major urban areas? Statistics aren't simple nor are they definitive. Your clade could be more ancient, it's possible but Finland wasn't heavily populated until the Viking era. Finland was probably always a path for Hunter Gathers and later Scandinavians. I would imagine there is a good degree of diversity even if its not exaggerated.

My clade is dated by FtDna and yFull. I have not courage to deny their maths. It is older, it is a branch of a 2500 years old Finnish branch, which have Swedish matches counted by one hand fingers and most of them have Finnish roots. Of course there is more Finnish I1 in Sweden, but maths how they calculate clade ages can't be wrong.

[Maintenance]

But what percent of Swedes and Finns have actually taken Y-Dna tests and what percent of those people are from major urban areas? Statistics aren't simple nor are they definitive. Your clade could be more ancient, it's possible but Finland wasn't heavily populated until the Viking era. Finland was probably always a path for Hunter Gathers and later Scandinavians. I would imagine there is a good degree of diversity even if its not exaggerated.

I don't think many do at all, nobody seem to care about digging deeper than just taking a dna test at most.

[PaleoEuropean]

I don't think many do at all, nobody seem to care about digging deeper than just taking a dna test at most.

A lot test with crappy companies too like Myheritage or FTDNA and just do Morley as well. I remember reading that Europeans use mostly those two companies as where Americans use mostly Ancestry or 23.

[Jana]

Most of it is but not all, native Finnish specific I1 clade exist.

[TheMaestro]

No, the nationality and genetics are differents.
A Turkish was born/living in Sweden can he call himself "Swedish"? He's got Swedish nationality but is ethnic Turkish with haplogroup E or J.

Your haplogroup (I1) is Pre-Indoeuropean.
Common in Scandinavia. Probably you've got that haplogroup for Viking invasions, but depends of your subclade.

Ev13 is not common in Turkey, J yes.

[PaleoEuropean]

My clade is dated by FtDna and yFull. I have not courage to deny their maths. It is older, it is a branch of a 2500 years old Finnish branch, which have Swedish matches counted by one hand fingers and most of them have Finnish roots. Of course there is more Finnish I1 in Sweden, but maths how they calculate clade ages can't be wrong.

The same could be said though for I-l161.1 almost everyone tested commercially is from the Uk or Germany when independent studies show how truly far it is spread out. I am not saying your clade isn't anciently native to Finland; but there are a loooot of factors to consider. 2500 years ago wasn't that long, that's when Hunter Gatherers started to move back into the Balkans and Scandinavia for whatever regions, in the Eastern and Southern Baltic it's thought because they resisted farming. My clade also moved around during this time period, this was probably one of the last great migration periods of Hunter Gathers populations. Things always change and dates are always moved around especially when it comes to I clades, you also have to make sure that the name of the clade is still the same because most I clades have changed names. Not everyone updates the information they put out. Most the studies on I1 and I2 use outdated names because they are relatively old finds or studies.

[Maintenance]

No, the nationality and genetics are differents.
A Turkish was born/living in Sweden can he call himself "Swedish"? He's got Swedish nationality but is ethnic Turkish with haplogroup E or J.

Your haplogroup (I1) is Pre-Indoeuropean.
Common in Scandinavia. Probably you've got that haplogroup for Viking invasions, but depends of your subclade.

He has Swedish relatives so i dont know why hes asking these questions.

[Lemminkäinen]

A lot test with crappy companies too like Myheritage or FTDNA and just do Morley as well. I remember reading that Europeans use mostly those two companies as where Americans use mostly Ancestry or 23.

23 doesn't even do ydna tests. The Finnish I1 is calculated based on 1600 I1 results and I don't think that Swedes are much worse.

FtDna is the leading yDna provider in the world.

[Lemminkäinen]

Most of it is but not all, native Finnish specific I1 clade exist.

Most of it, 95%, is native Finnish based on research.

[Lemminkäinen]

The same could be said though for I-l161.1 almost everyone tested commercially is from the Uk or Germany when independent studies show how truly far it is spread out. I am not saying your clade isn't anciently native to Finland; but there are a loooot of factors to consider. 2500 years ago wasn't that long, that's when Hunter Gatherers started to move back into the Balkans and Scandinavia for whatever regions, in the Eastern and Southern Baltic it's thought because they resisted farming. My clade also moved around during this time period, this was probably one of the last great migration periods of Hunter Gathers populations. Things always change and dates are always moved around especially when it comes to I clades, you also have to make sure that the name of the clade is still the same because most I clades have changed names. Not everyone updates the information they put out. Most the studies on I1 and I2 use outdated names because they are relatively old finds or studies.

Same way as the British I1 can be rooted to somewhere else, just same logic and research proves that the Finnish I1 is solely Finnish and Bronze age. And your knowledge about Finnish HG ancestry is not based on reaserch either; Finland had farming already 5000 years ago, although huntering snd fishing were practices too.

[PaleoEuropean]

23 doesn't even do ydna tests. The Finnish I1 is calculated based on 1600 I1 results.

FtDna is the leading yDna provider in the world.

23 does a basic Y and Mtdna test included with your ethnic background test.

[Lemminkäinen]

23 does a basic Y and Mtdna test included with your ethnic background test.
Obviously you are not familiarized in ydna research. 23 doesn't make even near full grnome ydna. It is, how to say it, an amateur.

[PaleoEuropean]

Obviously you are not familiarized in ydna research. 23 doesn't make even nesr full grnome ydna.

Other companies lowest tier base level clade tests aren't that different from 23 and me's methods.

[Lemminkäinen]

No, the nationality and genetics are differents.
A Turkish was born/living in Sweden can he call himself "Swedish"? He's got Swedish nationality but is ethnic Turkish with haplogroup E or J.

Your haplogroup (I1) is Pre-Indoeuropean.
Common in Scandinavia. Probably you've got that haplogroup for Viking invasions, but depends of your subclade.

Not according leading researchers.

[Lemminkäinen]

Other companies lowest tier base level clade tests aren't that different from 23 and me's methods.

Oh, you don't really know. Which now is known.

[Aren]

Most of it, 95%, is native Finnish based on research.

Depends on what native means in this regard. I1 didn't exist in Finland until the arrival of Proto-Germanics during the IA. That is certain atleast.
Some I1 clades are from proto-Norse speakers such as the Levanluhta outlier who clusters with modern day Norwegians. Other clades are nested within the modern Swedish diversity, probably a spread from Sweden to western Finland which has elevated Scandinavian ancestry when Finland was under the Swedish crown.

[PaleoEuropean]

Oh, you don't really know. Which now is known.

A $80 base clade test is not the same as a $200 test, you are comparing apples and oranges.

[Ülev]

Most the R1b in Scandinavia comes from later German settlement. Sweden used to have German lands. For instance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Pomerania


http://s1.lprs1.fr/images/2015/06/16/4864417_vikings_1000x625.jpg

Viking DNA Results In Normandy,

May 18, 2016

A genetic study has determined that some of todays Normans are probably descendants of the Vikings.

Do the Normans really have Vikings ancestors?

A lot of places in Normandy have names of Viking origin including the local people. A genetic study conducted in the Cotentin region wanted to determine the biological portion of this Scandinavian heritage. Here are the first results.

ANCESTORS. “Men of the North”, such is the literal meaning of the word “Norman”. And the term used to describe the inhabitants of Normandy and their descendants. It was once used to talk about the Vikings, the Scandinavian people who landed on the French coast of the English Channel at the end of the first millennium AD.

Can the Normans today still boast of being the direct descendants of those dreaded Nordic warriors of the Middle Ages? “It could be or not”, The first results of the genetic study were announced Thursday, April 21, 2016. It was a collaboration between British and French researchers, known as the “Viking DNA Project” aims to determine if the Normans contain a “signature” left by the Vikings. Now, this signature is not always clear.

The Viking DNA Signature

Researchers are interested in Normandy because it is the only sustainable political foundation established by the Vikings on the mainland. Scientists have also focused their study on the population of the Cotentin peninsula because the density of places and people whose names are of Scandinavian origin is particularly strong. “We were interested in men with surnames with Scandinavian-sounding that could reflect this legacy: names such as Anquetil, Dutot, Equilbec, Gonfray, Ingouf, Lanfry, Osouf, Osmont, Quetel, Tougis, Tostain, Raoult and their many variations, explains Richard Jones of the University of Leicester. We have also retained only people whose four grandparents were born and lived within 50 km of their current home. This stable residence is often indicative of a longer history of the family in one area.” In the end, the researchers selected according to these criteria, 89 men. They were asked to complete a genealogical questionnaire and submit to a saliva test. The scientists then looked for a “Viking signature” on the Y chromosome (present only in males and passed from father to son) extracted from cells in saliva. Specifically, they were interested in genetic variations present on this chromosome.

“These changes can be grouped according to several criteria. This allows to classify an individual in a ‘haplogroup’ particular depending on the type of detected changes in their DNA,” said British historian.

Results? Of the 89 men who participated in the study, the vast majority (52) represented haplogroup R1b, the type of Y chromosome variations most common in Northern and Western Europe. Its origin, still unclear, is found on the side of shepherds from the plains north of the Black Sea who migrated to the West 4,000 years ago. There can’t, therefore, be a typical Viking signature. But without totally excluding it either: according to experts, this genetic variation could mean an indirect link with the Vikings. However, haplogroup I1, found in 11 of the Normans of the study, suggests more clearly a possible Viking ancestry (more direct this time).

These variations are indeed very present among the Scandinavians (over 45% of the population belongs to this genetic group in some areas). But a Germanic origin is also possible. In fact, “when we look at fingerprints’ underlying haplogroup I1, some Norman Y chromosomes show an affinity with the Germanic, while others show an affinity with the Scandinavians,” said Richard Jones. Still, “it’s very tempting to consider l1 as a mark left by the Vikings in Normandy because it is present in approximately the same proportions as those observed in other populations with known Viking history,” the searcher. Finally, 2 participants presented a haplogroup often regarded as typical Nordic: R1a. The other haplogroups found among the Normans are a priori unrelated to the Vikings. They are of other origins witnesses, particularly around the Mediterranean (including Sicily and southern Italy, the land that belonged to the Norman empire) and extending further eastward from the Middle East and Eastern Europe (going back perhaps to the Crusades).

These results are however not definitive, but they already reflect a high genetic diversity within the population of Cotentin. The researchers intend to refine their analysis of haplogroups in order to more clearly identify the geographic origins of each.

They also want to study another type of genetic material: mitochondrial DNA (inherited this time by the mother to her children), even more, complex to decipher. Finally, future methods of ancient DNA samples may enable to harvest DNA on Viking skulls: it will then be sufficient to compare this authentic DNA to that of the Normans to see if they are related, rather than attempting to trace the genetic trees following the traces of a possible Viking signature. “Knowledge of the genetic history of Normandy is still in its infancy!” Enthuses Richard Jones.

* Groupware matter between the University of Leicester (UK) and the Centre for Archaeological Research and Historical Ancient and Medieval UMR 6273 (CNRS / UCBN), University of Caen Lower Normandy (France).

Source :

-http://www.normandescendants.org/viking-dna-results-normandy/

[Finnish Swede]

Old North Europeans ... anyway.

[PaleoEuropean]

I2 is also found in Normans especially those in from Sicily, R1b did exist in Scandinavia and probably at it's highest frequency in Sweden and the continental part of Denmark but after the expulsion of the Jutes, Anglos and Saxons I can't imagine there was a super large population. The Scandinavians also were privy to adopting clans, people and tribes so it's really hard to say. Your article puts it perfectly that R1b isn't typical but we can't be sure. The Vikings weren't a singular group of people, there were Vikings of Slavic origin, Celtic etc. Vikings weren't typical people; most were ex-slaves, outcasts, criminals, capitalists etc. The Normans in particular came from all walks of life, they adopted tons of people into coalition and were known for making up origin stories for their adoptees. Like in Kieven Rus, they were seen as a means to unify and or change the system; their benefit wasn't only to themselves; they really enriched and leveled out the dynamics of the previous powers.

[PaleoEuropean]

Old North Europeans ... anyway.

Yea it really doesn't matter at the end of the day, they are from the region regardless which side of fake lines they are from.

[Lemminkäinen]

Depends on what native means in this regard. I1 didn't exist in Finland until the arrival of Proto-Germanics during the IA. That is certain atleast.
Some I1 clades are from proto-Norse speakers such as the Levanluhta outlier who clusters with modern day Norwegians. Other clades are nested within the modern Swedish diversity, probably a spread from Sweden to western Finland which has elevated Scandinavian ancestry when Finland was under the Swedish crown.

Finnish I1 is from the proto-Germanic era or older. Remind you that oldest aDna-I1 is from Mesolithic Gotland.