Prussia back on the map?

[Johnston]

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2011/01/the-prussians-are-coming/


Troops in Afghanistan and a shaky eurozone have left Germany searching for ways to redefine itself. Can the militaristic values of the old kingdom of Prussia fill the gap?

http://preussensgloria.spruz.com/member/?g=6A80F10D-F338-4297-A44B-461CDD7D42A5&act=6A80F10D-F338-4297-A44B-461CDD7D42A5-view&id=AB3D0D84-EC93-408C-9109-5761CDB1CBCF

http://newsandviews11.blogspot.com/2007/10/revival-of-prussia.html

http://www.goodnewsmag.ca/issues/getgn.aspx?get=/news-and-prophecy/world-news-and-trends-prussian-revival&d=u

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1380005/German-fears-over-revival-of-Prussia.html

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=57178992181

[poiuytrewq0987]

I knew it, with the economic rise of Germany, it'd start looking back to its old warmongering ways. Nuke Germany before it starts WW3.

[The Lawspeaker]

All for it. There is no problem with a Bundesland called Prussia consisting on the areas stolen from Germany by Poland and Russia in what used to be East and West Prussia.

[Sahson]

Yes, The lands that were stolen from them should be returned to the rightful owners, that had lost them.

[The Ripper]

Put Old Prussia back on the map! Death to the German crusaders! Hail Herkus Mantas! ;)

[Johnston]

If Austria can exist, then so too can Prussia. I refer to the same capacity, as an independent country.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes, The lands that were stolen from them should be returned to the rightful owners, that had lost them.

No thanks... the Germans already committted genocide against the Wends. Germany shouldn't become larger territorially. It doesn't really matter in the end anyhow since the EU is one mega-German Empire/HRE (http://www.euchronicle.eu/holy-german-empire-european-nations).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/West_slavs_9th-10th_c..png

[Johnston]

Personally, I am interested in the restoration of Hannover.

[Johnston]

Put Old Prussia back on the map! Death to the German crusaders! Hail Herkus Mantas! ;)Prussia was part of Germania in Roman times anyway.


No thanks... the Germans already committted genocide against the Wends. Germany shouldn't become larger territorially. It doesn't really matter in the end anyhow since the EU is one mega-German Empire/HRE (http://www.euchronicle.eu/holy-german-empire-european-nations).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/West_slavs_9th-10th_c..pngWho says the Poles are native to Poland? My atlases do not.

[SwordoftheVistula]

If Austria can exist, then so too can Prussia. I refer to the same capacity, as an independent country.

Since the fall of the aristocracy after WWI, it's been the most liberal part of Germany. So, the beneficiaries would probably be the rest of Germany. Not much of Prussian land is left anyways, most of it has been given to Poland and other countries, and settled with Poles who were pushed out of lands to the east that Poland lost to the USSR after WWII.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Prussia was part of Germania in Roman times anyway.

Who says the Poles are native to Poland? My atlases do not.

1. Old Prussians were Balts who were ethnically clenased for being pagan. Germans love to commit ethnic cleansing, don't they?

2. The Germans aren't native to Prussia. It was inhabited by Slavs and Balts until the Germans came and wiped them out from existence during the Northern Crusades.

[Johnston]

1. Old Prussians were Balts who were ethnically clenased for being pagan. Germans love to commit ethnic cleansing, don't they?

2. The Germans aren't native to Prussia. It was inhabited by Slavs and Balts until the Germans came and wiped them out from existence during the Northern Crusades.Tacitus included tribes of Balts and Finns in Germania. There were no Slavs then, and even later, the Goths and Vandals were there, not Slavs. From whence did the Slavs come?:) The Slavs are an historical accident of Steppe warfare in eastern Europe.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Since the fall of the aristocracy after WWI, it's been the most liberal part of Germany. So, the beneficiaries would probably be the rest of Germany. Not much of Prussian land is left anyways, most of it has been given to Poland and other countries, and settled with Poles who were pushed out of lands to the east that Poland lost to the USSR after WWII.

Like Russia will give up Kaliningrad for poor 'ol Germans. It was conquered by the Russians as result of Germans' policy of warmongering, and the Germans need to accept the consequences of their actions.

[The Ripper]

Tacitus included tribes of Balts and Finns in Germania. There were no Slavs then, and even later, the Goths and Vandals were there, not Slavs. From whence did the Slavs come?:)

Tacitus' "Finns" are most likely not Finns.

[Johnston]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19042&page=2

[poiuytrewq0987]

Tacitus included tribes of Balts and Finns in Germania. There were no Slavs then, and even later, the Goths and Vandals were there, not Slavs. From whence did the Slavs come?:) The Slavs are an historical accident of Steppe warfare in eastern Europe.

Germania is a funny thought because the Romans never conquered the region. It's ridiculous to think they knew the exact extent of Germans living in the area let alone the Slavs...

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/nettsch/time/emp.gif

[Johnston]

Tacitus' "Finns" are most likely not Finns.What about the Estonians?

[The Ripper]

What about the Estonians?

What about them?

[Johnston]

What about them?They are listed among the peoples of Germania. Why are the Finns not Finns?:rolleyes:

[The Ripper]

They are listed among the peoples of Germania. Why are the Finns not Finns?:rolleyes:

The Fenni of Tacitus are today widely regarded as forebears of the Sámi. The Aestii could as well be a Baltic tribe, we can't say for sure.

[Johnston]

The Fenni of Tacitus are today widely regarded as forebears of the Sámi. The Aestii could as well be a Baltic tribe, we can't say for sure.Are the Suomi not simply Swedified Saami? What else explains their transition from the nomadic lifestyle to one sedentary and almost carbon-copied from Sweden? Who says the Finns did not herd raindeer and then become domesticated according to Swedish design? Sounds inflammatory, but it is probably true. Fenno-Ugric peoples are not known for anything but their nomadic origins in the east, and subsequent settlement in the West, under Indo-European aegis. Consider how Austria contained Hungary. The same must have happened in the North.

[The Ripper]

Are the Suomi not simply Swedified Saami?

No LOL.



What else explains their transition from the nomadic lifestyle to one sedentary and almost carbon-copied from Sweden?

The neolithic reaching northern latitudes? Baltic Finns have been engaged in farming for thousands of years before Swedish rule. Not to mention that the split between Sámi and Baltic Finnish languages also predates Swedish rule by some millennia.


Who says the Finns did not herd raindeer and then become domesticated according to Swedish design?

Archaeology and history.


Sounds inflammatory, but it is probably true. Fenno-Ugric peoples are not known for anything but their nomadic origins in the east, and subsequent settlement in the West, under Indo-European aegis. Consider how Austria contained Hungary. The same must have happened in the North.

:coffee:

[Johnston]

Prussia people, Prussia.

[Aces High]

1. Old Prussians were Balts who were ethnically clenased for being pagan. Germans love to commit ethnic cleansing, don't they?


Serbs seem to be quite good at it too.

[beaver]

and settled with Poles who were pushed out of lands to the east that Poland lost to the USSR after WWII.
Were you really banned for so long if you dont know that Poland got back Gdansk/Danzig from the Germans absolutely by forces of the Red Army?
surely also "Voisko Polski" (sorry, dont know how to write more correct) as a part of the Red Army.

[Johnston]

So...Berlin, Danzig, and Koenigsberg...could there be a reunion? How about merely like twinned cities, or a neo-Hanseatic League? Bring in Lubeck of course. Merge Prussia and the Hanse.

[The Lawspeaker]

So...Berlin, Danzig, and Koenigsberg...could there be a reunion? How about merely like twinned cities, or a neo-Hanseatic League? Bring in Lubeck of course. Merge Prussia and the Hanse.
And why ?

Merely unite East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia) and West Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Prussia) as a Bundesland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany) with it's capital in Königsberg in Preußen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ningsberg). Make Danzig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig) a Free City like Hamburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg).

[poiuytrewq0987]

Serbs seem to be quite good at it too.

What we did in the 1990s pales in comparison to the 2 million Serbs wiped off the face of the Earth in two world wars, and I don't think we have to guess who were responsible for starting two world wars. We were only doing what the others (Croats, Muslims) were doing. However if it's the Catholics/Protestants and Muslims who are doing it... it's OK but if an Orthodox country does it, it ain't right!

[poiuytrewq0987]

Were you really banned for so long if you dont know that Poland got back Gdansk/Danzig from the Germans absolutely by forces of the Red Army?
surely also "Voisko Polski" (sorry, dont know how to write more correct) as a part of the Red Army.

It's a shame the USSR didn't take all of East Prussia for herself and gave one half to Poland. I don't think Russia should ever return East Prussia to Germany or give it away to Poland. Millions of Russians live there today and they are part of the land there now.

[The Ripper]

It's a shame the USSR didn't take all of East Prussia for herself and gave one half to Poland. I don't think Russia should ever return East Prussia to Germany or give it away to Poland. Millions of Russians live there today and they are part of the land there now.

They should all be put in gas chambers and flown to the moon.

[poiuytrewq0987]

They should all be put in gas chambers and flown to the moon.

The Germans aren't entitled to the land. They took it from the Baltic Prussians and essentially ethnically cleansed them then replaced the inhabitants with German migrants from the West during the Northern Crusades. So now, Prussia can only belong to whomever wins the land, and my sir, that is Russia.

[The Ripper]

The Germans aren't entitled to the land. They took it from the Baltic Prussians and essentially ethnically cleansed them then replaced the inhabitants with German migrants from the West during the Northern Crusades. So now, Prussia can only belong to whomever wins the land, and my sir, that is Russia.

Yeah, totally.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Germans aren't entitled to the land. They took it from the Baltic Prussians and essentially ethnically cleansed them then replaced the inhabitants with German migrants from the West during the Northern Crusades. So now, Prussia can only belong to whomever wins the land, and my sir, that is Russia.
So, by using the same logic, Albania should have Kosovo ?

[Raikaswinþs]

http://brojsimpson.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif

[Frederick]

If Germans killed all native people of East Prussia, why do East Prussian Germans posses 2 times as much "East European" aDNA component than Westgermans?

Why would 3th reich racists claim East Prussia has lots of Baltid or Baltid influenced looks?

The only answere is, East Prussians are etnically mixed people. And that means, the Germans did not genocide the people who lived there before.

And there is even smoking guns for it:
The Teutonic knightly order was very orderly if it came to book-keeping.

The orders chronicles say, in the crussades in the Baltic states, they usualy killed all heathen adults but brought the children back to East Prussia, where the order raised them as christian Germans.

Also, the Westgermans didnt like the refugees from the lost terretories.
They called them "Kartoffelkäfer" (Potatoe beetles) and almost rated them forreigners.

A similiar effect exist for so called "Russlanddeutsche" (Russia-Germans).
The "Russia Germans" are descants of German enineers wich the Czar ordered to modernize Russia, 200-150 years ago. They lived in their own German communities in Russia. Spoke German, kept German culture. Isolated themselfs from the Russians etc.

They even conservated German culture longer than GErmany itself. Like time bubbles.

They had been hated by the Russians because they are Germans. And the Russians wanted them to go home to Germany.

When they finaly went back to Germany in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s.... the Germans hated them too and said, they are fucking Russians. Speaking German with Russian accents, having Russian phenotypes and all that.

Seems like they had not been so isolate there in Russia. And if they had... it seems like 5 Generations in Russia turned them Russian, phenotype like, eh?

Of course the East Prussians, besides not beeing ethnically pure Germans had been wonderfull Nazis.

Who voted for the NSDAP?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/NSDAP_Wahl_1933.png

Look how all the germanized Slavs are the worst Nazis... ha ha ha

[Logan]

I agree with the Nazis, that Prussia should not have been separated from the rest of Germany in 1919.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/g191923.gif

The wrong only became worse after a second defeat of Germany in 1945.http://astro.temple.edu/~barbday/Europe66/resources/images/german1945.jpg

I do not think that the country shall ever be revived.

[The Lawspeaker]

I agree with the Nazis, that Prussia should not have been separated from the rest of Germany in 1919.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/g191923.gif

The wrong only became worse after a second defeat of Germany in 1945.http://astro.temple.edu/~barbday/Europe66/resources/images/german1945.jpg

I do not think that the country shall ever be revived.
Let's hope it will be but not as a country called Prussia but as a German State but and with Germany within wider European framework so they won't pose a danger to the rest of us.

[Frederick]

Besides that, Prussians still exist. Ask a Bavarian. ;)

Even a Rhinelander will tell any NOrthern German "you Prussians lack any humor!"
For a Bavarian, "Prussia" = "Northern Germany"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Map-DR-Prussia.svg/250px-Map-DR-Prussia.svg.png

Technically, 50% of "Prussia" still is part of Germany. ;)

And the capital city of Prussia was Berlin. Wich is now the capital city of Germany.

In every day life, the "Prussians" still exist. Like the "Yankees" still exist in the USAs mind.

[The Ripper]

Besides that, Prussians still exist. Ask a Bavarian. ;)

Even a Rhinelander will tell any NOrthern German "you Prussians lack any humor!"
For a Bavarian, "Prussia" = "Northern Germany"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/70/Map-DR-Prussia.svg/250px-Map-DR-Prussia.svg.png

Technically, 50% of "Prussia" still is part of Germany. ;)

And the capital city of Prussia was Berlin. Wich is now the capital city of Germany.

In every day life, the "Prussians" still exist. Like the "Yankees" still exist in the USAs mind.

The spirit of Herkus Mantas will slay those "Prussian" pretenders in their sleep. ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

I agree with the Nazis, that Prussia should not have been separated from the rest of Germany in 1919.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/g191923.gif

The wrong only became worse after a second defeat of Germany in 1945.http://astro.temple.edu/%7Ebarbday/Europe66/resources/images/german1945.jpg

I do not think that the country shall ever be revived.

What are you high on? Germany started WW1, they lost a lot of their Eastern territories as consequence. They also started WW2, they lost even more of their eastern territories again as consequence for starting another world war.

[The Lawspeaker]

What are you high on? Germany started WW1, they lost a lot of their Eastern territories as consequence. They also started WW2, they lost even more of their eastern territories again as consequence for starting another world war.
Wrong again. Serbia started WWI. France started WW2 with it's unreasonable demands of the Versailles Treaty.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Wrong again. Serbia started WWI. France started WW2 with it's unreasonable demands of the Versailles Treaty.

Nope. Austria started WW1 by annexing Bosnia after the Ottomans lost control of it in the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 and was emboldened by the German Kaiser's promises to aid Austria in crushing little Serbia. Fortunately for us, Serbia is never short on brilliant military minds like Putnik, who was an ailing general. He led the Serbian army to victory which was poorly equipped in comparison to rich and powerful Austria-Hungary.

And WW2? Hitler, enough said.

[The Lawspeaker]

Nope. Austria started WW1 by annexing Bosnia after the Ottomans lost control of it in the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78 and was emboldened by the German Kaiser's promises to aid Austria in crushing little Serbia. Fortunately for us, Serbia is never short on brilliant military minds like Putnik, who was an ailing general. He led the Serbian army to victory which was poorly equipped in comparison to rich and powerful Austria-Hungary.

And WW2? Hitler, enough said.
Bullocks again. Serbia killed the heir to the Austrian throne and Austria-Hungary rightfully invaded Serbia in 1914 (if the Russians would have stayed out then Austria-Hungary would have set things in order and life would have resumed it's normal course if it wasn't for the French and Russians stirring up fire. France put such strains on Germany after 1919 in a spirit of pure maliciousness and revanchism that it's own Allies almost walked away from the table. France, alone, is responsible for WWII. As Serbia alone is responsible for WWI.

[Guapo]

Personally, I am interested in the restoration of Hannover.

Personally, I am interested in getting rid of my Hangover.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Bullocks again. Serbia killed the heir to the Austrian throne and Austria-Hungary right invaded Serbia in 1914. France put such strains on Germany after 1919 in a spirit of pure maliciousness and revanchism that it's own Allies almost walked away from the table. France, alone, is responsible for WWII. As Serbia alone is responsible for WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_crisis

Oh? I guess France should have told the Kaiser thanks for starting WW1 and sent him a box of chocolates then?

[Guapo]

He led the Serbian army to victory which was poorly equipped in comparison to rich and powerful Austria-Hungary.

.

Cuz Krauts didn't fight in the A-H army, Croats, Bosnian muslims and Magyars did, all three of which are pussy nations with males to begin with.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_crisis
Bosnia belonged to Austria-Hungary and it was a rightful annexation and since you maintain to have double standards all the time I might just as well flung "Kosovo" in your face. The Albanians nicked Kosovo.. and it's now rightfully theirs as East Prussia is now "rightfully" Russia.


Oh? I guess France should have told the Kaiser thanks for starting WW1 and sent him a box of chocolates then?
It wasn't a French problem for starters. France just wanted to steal German land and get rid of a competitor.

[Guapo]

But French women are much more prettier than German women.

[The Lawspeaker]

But French women are much more prettier than German women.
Sorry. I wasn't impressed by those haughty mademoiselles. Too many had headscarves or burqa's on. Must be a local custom. :thumb001:

[Guapo]

Sorry. I wasn't impressed by those haughty mademoiselles. Too many had headscarves or burqa's on. Must be a local custom. :thumb001:

next time visit Loire or Bretagne then

[poiuytrewq0987]

Bosnia belonged to Austria-Hungary and it was a rightful annexation and since you maintain to have double standards all the time I might just as well flung "Kosovo" in your face. The Albanians nicked Kosovo.. and it's now rightfully theirs as East Prussia is now "rightfully" Russia.

Please tell me who lives in Bosnia? Serbs or Austrians? :lol: Illegitimate Austrian annexation of Bosnia was only done in favorable political conditions since Britain was rather anti-Russian at the time and didn't want to see Serbia become an even stronger ally of Russia, and since Germany backed Austria and Britain... Russia had no choice but to concede. The Habsburgs, in a way, out of their greediness and foolishness, they caused their own inevitable fall and rise of Communism which both happened as consequence of WW1. You are supporting the bad guys.


It wasn't a French problem for starters. France just wanted to steal German land and get rid of a competitor.
No, the goal of the Versailles Treaty was to ensure Germany would not start another devastating world war. We can clearly see that the treaty failed and a total occupation of Germany a la the Cold War is the only hope to stop Germany from starting world wars.

[Guapo]

Deutschland ist tot. Vive la Turkenland.

http://occidentallibertas.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/germany_turks.png

[SwordoftheVistula]

Cuz Krauts didn't fight in the A-H army, Croats, Bosnian muslims and Magyars did, all three of which are pussy nations with males to begin with.

That's not true at all. I wandered into some random church in a town which is now in Czech, had a huge list of townsfolk who died in battle in WWI, and they were all German names.

[The Lawspeaker]

Please tell me who lives in Bosnia? Serbs or Austrians? :lol: Illegitimate Austrian annexation of Bosnia was only done in favorable political conditions since Britain was rather anti-Russian at the time and didn't want to see Serbia become an even stronger ally of Russia, and since Germany backed Austria and Britain... Russia had no choice but to concede. The Habsburgs, in a way, out of their greediness and foolishness, they caused their own inevitable fall and rise of Communism which both happened as consequence of WW1. You are supporting the bad guys.
Yes.. that's what the standard lesson is. France was butt-hurt over 1870 when they attacked a weaker Prussia or so they thought and got stamped out and humiliated by a unified Germany and also lost the Alsace-Lorraine which the French had nicked from the Holy Roman Empire on several occassions. That is the real reason for the war - not your fantasy stories.


No, the goal of the Versailles Treaty was to ensure Germany would not start another devastating world war. We can clearly see that the treaty failed and a total occupation of Germany a la the Cold War is the only hope to stop Germany from starting world wars.
Bullshit. They were so afraid of Germany as a competitor on the mainland (because France wanted that position) that they continue to blockade and starve her after the war was over. They even made her pay for damage inflicted by the Allies, mainly the French, on their own population in order to bankrupt her.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes.. that's what the standard lesson is. France was butt-hurt over 1870 when they attacked a weaker Prussia or so they thought and got stamped out and humiliated by a unified Germany and also lost the Alsace-Lorraine which the French had nicked from the Holy Roman Empire on several occassions. That is the real reason for the war - not your fantasy stories.

I don't really see how we should suffer because of France's Napoleon complex. At least we didn't start WW2 and gassed 6 million Jews that's a pretty big fail if Hitler's only goal was to recapture Eastern territories. And let's not get started with Hitler's dreams of lebensraum in the East and the planned extermination of Ukrainians to make room for German settlers...


Bullshit. They were so afraid of Germany as a competitor on the mainland (because France wanted that position) that they continue to blockade and starve her after the war was over. They even made her pay for damage inflicted by the Allies, mainly the French, on their own population in order to bankrupt her. France was imperfect for starting that war in 1870 but it could be hardly blamed for WW1 or WW2 since Germany started both wars.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't really see how we should suffer because of France's Napoleon complex. At least we didn't start WW2 and gassed 6 million Jews that's a pretty big fail if Hitler's only goal was to recapture Eastern territories. And let's not get started with Hitler's dreams of lebensraum in the East and the planned extermination of Ukrainians to make room for German settlers...
Tell that to a 19th century Spaniard, Dutchman, Austrian, Italian, German, Pole, Russian etc. He would have beaten you up so badly that you wouldn't have lived another day. Particularly the Spanish, Germans and Russians had a sound reason to have murdered you on the spot.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/staff-college/19256d1267654642-imagery-propaganda-goya.shootings-3-5-1808.jpg
Ask any Spaniard what this painting means.

6 million Jews ? Well.. we will never know for sure how many were murdered and they used to claim it was more back in the day. And "planned extermination" --- evidence, please ?


France was imperfect for starting that war in 1870 but it could be hardly blamed for WW1 or WW2 since Germany started both wars.
Stop repeating the mantra as it is bullshit. Who shot and murdered Archduke Franz Ferdinand on 28 June 1914 ?

A) Germany
B) Serbia

[poiuytrewq0987]

Tell that to a 19th century Spaniard, Dutchman, Austrian, Italian, German, Pole, Russian etc. He would have beaten you up so badly that you wouldn't have lived another day. Particularly the Spanish, Germans and Russians had a sound reason to have murdered you on the spot.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/attachments/staff-college/19256d1267654642-imagery-propaganda-goya.shootings-3-5-1808.jpg
Ask any Spaniard what this painting means.

Serbia is not France. Serbia has always been a victim of imperialists. First the Ottomans then later the Austrians (the Empire and Hitler) and now the Americans. All because they want control of our resources and of a strategic crossing between Europe and Asia.


6 million Jews ? Well.. we will never know for sure how many were murdered and they used to claim it was more back in the day. And "planned extermination" --- evidence, please ?
Don't really care for the Holocaust but German crimes doesn't stop there.


Stop repeating the mantra as it is bullshit. Who shot and murdered Archduke Franz Ferdinand on 28 June 1914 ?

A) Germany
B) Serbia
Who occupied Bosnia, a Serbian land after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78?

A) Austria
B) Turkey

[The Lawspeaker]

Serbia is not France. Serbia has always been a victim of imperialists. First the Ottomans then later the Austrians (the Empire and Hitler) and now the Americans. All because they want control of our resources and of a strategic crossing between Europe and Asia.
From victim to perpetrator then. Bosnia was rightfully in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. You have some double standards: you are butt-hurt when it comes to Kosovo but you deem it o.k when the Germans get half their country from them.


Don't really care for the Holocaust but German crimes doesn't stop there.
Evidence. Now.


Who occupied Bosnia, a Serbian land after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78?

A) Austria
B) Turkey
Bosnia was never a Serbian land so that doesn't work. What would be Sprska would be a Serbian land.

[poiuytrewq0987]

From victim to perpetrator then. Bosnia was rightfully in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. You have some double standards: you are butt-hurt when it comes to Kosovo but you deem it o.k when the Germans get half their country from them.


Rightfully, how? No Austrians lived in Bosnia whereas there are many Serbs who still live in Kosovo.


Evidence. Now.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fileadmin/historyLearningSite/holland.jpg

Bosnia was never a Serbian land so that doesn't work. What would be Sprska would be a Serbian land.Oh really? Tell me who made up the majority of Bosnian population then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#1879

http://operatorchan.org/n/arch/src/n68283_Yugoslavia%20Demographics.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Rightfully, how? No Austrians lived in Bosnia whereas there are many Serbs who still live in Kosovo.
Yes. And since you think that the Germans were rightfully kicked out of Prussia should the Serbs maybe be expelled from Kosovo too. Just using your own logics against you. :thumb001:

Well.. they were obviously so happy with the Serbs that it took the Austrian Army a long time to stop anti-Serb rioting and massacring after Franz Ferdinand was murdered. Yes: they came in defence of Serbs living in that area and to restore order. Ironic, no ?

If it hadn't been for some police officers dragging Princip away him and his accomplices would have been lynched on the spot. So they clearly felt themselves as citizens of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy.


http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fileadmin/historyLearningSite/holland.jpg
Evidence for your claims. That they wanted to genocide the whole of Eastern Europe and to turn into some colony. Evidence. Evidence also for the 6 million. Because no one really knows how many were actually murdered.


Oh really? Tell me who made up the majority of Bosnian population then.

http://operatorchan.org/n/arch/src/n68283_Yugoslavia%20Demographics.jpg
That's 1991. Back to 1870. Do you have a map of that time ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Damn bloody stupid that the only maps I can find lump Muslim Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs together as a single ethnicity. :rolleyes2:

[Johnston]

Austria is as artificial a nation as Prussia was, so why is Austria allowed to exist and Prussia not? Both were Ostsiedlung for Lebensraum from the very beginning. The only difference is one is Habsburg and Catholic, the other is Hohenzollern and Protestant. Should Germany be subject to an establishment other than that based in the stem duchies? Germans are Saxons, Franks, Bavarians, Swabians, etc. in their roots. Austria is not a tribal German name any more than Prussia is. Berlin and Vienna are settlements of the eastern movement.

If anybody were to blame Britain for the dissolution of Prussia they would be wrong. Although Britain hated the fact that Prussia took over Hannover, British attacks were most severe on the Windsors' own hometown of Dresden, not on Berlin.

I approve of the picture in the attachment, although with several modifications. There should be a Union of West Germanics and a Union of North Germanics, and then some confederation between the two. I believe the Roman Catholic/German Protestant split is a very valid way of portraying Western Europe, which would explain the Rome-Berlin Axis. I would rather have had Moscow (the Third Rome) rule instead of Tokyo, so Russia could expand at Turkey's expense (Crimean War). This would have avoided the Armenian Genocide.:thumbs up

[Max]

Merely unite East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia) and West Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Prussia) as a Bundesland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_Germany) with it's capital in Königsberg in Preußen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ningsberg). Make Danzig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danzig) a Free City like Hamburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg).

Well Russia will not just give Königsberg away... How about a trade? You get Königsberg back and we get the Baltic states(you must also take Karl as part of the agreement) Sounds like a fair trade :rolleyes:

[Logan]

What are you high on? Germany started WW1, they lost a lot of their Eastern territories as consequence. They also started WW2, they lost even more of their eastern territories again as consequence for starting another world war.

Nothing. I think you and Civis Batavi went over both sides rather better than I might in the post that followed.


Besides that, Prussians still exist. Ask a Bavarian. ;)

I had read, not long ago some words a native of Konigsberg had composed. Seems in the end that the gains of the Teutonic Knights have been lost
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Deutscher_Orden_1260.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Ordensstaat-kirchlich.jpg
This is the Prussia to which was refered. I do thank you for the illumination.

[Johnston]

Nothing. I think you and Civis Batavi went over both sides rather better than I might in the post that followed.



I had read, not long ago some words a native of Konigsberg had composed. Seems in the end that the gains of the Teutonic Knights have been lost
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Deutscher_Orden_1260.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Ordensstaat-kirchlich.jpg
This is the Prussia to which was refered. I do thank you for the illumination.In older days than the Crusades, those lands would go to the Swedes and the Goths, and Denmark did have some of it during the Crusades. I would not say all of it should go to the Germans.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Yes. And since you think that the Germans were rightfully kicked out of Prussia should the Serbs maybe be expelled from Kosovo too. Just using your own logics against you. :thumb001:

Excuse me, we didn't start WW1 and WW2 unlike Germans who started two major world wars.


Well.. they were obviously so happy with the Serbs that it took the Austrian Army a long time to stop anti-Serb rioting and massacring after Franz Ferdinand was murdered. Yes: they came in defence of Serbs living in that area and to restore order. Ironic, no ?

If it hadn't been for some police officers dragging Princip away him and his accomplices would have been lynched on the spot. So they clearly felt themselves as citizens of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy.
Good for you.


Evidence for your claims. That they wanted to genocide the whole of Eastern Europe and to turn into some colony. Evidence. Evidence also for the 6 million. Because no one really knows how many were actually murdered.

Are you actually denying Hitler's ambition for lebensraum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum)? Haven't you read Mein Kampf?
That's 1991. Back to 1870. Do you have a map of that time ?1879. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#1879 )

Here is a demographic map of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia composed by a French cartographer.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/Carte_ethnographique_de_la_Pninsule_des_Balkans.jp g

[The Lawspeaker]

Excuse me, we didn't start WW1 and WW2 unlike Germans who started two major world wars.
Stop repeating the mantra as it is bullshit.




Are you actually denying Hitler's ambition for lebensraum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensraum)? Haven't you read Mein Kampf?
I am asking for evidence. Not a quick referal to Adolf's book.



1879. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina#1879 )


Here is a demographic map of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia composed by a French cartographer.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/Carte_ethnographique_de_la_Pninsule_des_Balkans.jp g
Show a map that makes it at least visible.


Well Russia will not just give Königsberg away... How about a trade? You get Königsberg back and we get the Baltic states(you must also take Karl as part of the agreement) Sounds like a fair trade :rolleyes:
Well both aren't your lands so why not start nicking lands from the Muzzies ? What use do you have for either the Baltic or East Prussia ?

[Johnston]

The Free City of Kaliningrad. Anybody?

[Logan]

The Free City of Kaliningrad. Anybody?

You might also change the name back. That's a start.

[Johnston]

You might also change the name back. That's a start.Yes, one step at a time. Could Prussia have the Hohenzollerns back?:)

[Guapo]

Yes, one step at a time. Could Prussia have the Hohenzollerns back?:)

Yes and hohenschoenhausen plus al0t moar.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, one step at a time. Could Prussia have the Hohenzollerns back?:)
Why not return to a modernised German Empire ?

[Johnston]

Why not return to a modernised German Empire ?If only WWI did not happen.:(

[The Lawspeaker]

If only WWI did not happen.:(
Well.. This time Germany should also be a full-blown democracy (as well as a constitutional monarchy) and of course a member of a European organisation. The principalities, fiefdoms and duchies (all having to be constitutional monarchies) could be restored but Prussia as it was back then should not be restored (in order to preserve a balance of power) - Prussia should just consist of East and West Prussia. And this flag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg
As it only represents Prussia and the Kleindeutsche Lösung

The flag should present the Großdeutsche Lösung instead. Black - red and gold.

[Johnston]

Well.. This time Germany should also be a full-blown democracy (as well as a constitutional monarchy) and of course a member of a European organisation. The principalities, fiefdoms and duchies (all having to be constitutional monarchies) could be restored but Prussia as it was back then should not be restored (in order to preserve a balance of power) - Prussia should just consist of East and West Prussia. And this flag:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg
As it only represents Prussia and the Kleindeutsche Lösung

The flag should present the Großdeutsche Lösung instead. Black - red and gold.

I prefer this one!

http://flagspot.net/images/d/de-impwa.gif

[The Lawspeaker]

I prefer this one!

http://flagspot.net/images/d/de-impwa.gif
Well that's because you don't understand the symbolism of it. That flag represents Prussia and the little Germany-solution (without Austria). The German flag has always had the Black, Red, Gold combination - dating back to the Holy Roman Empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_-_Reichssturmfahne_vor_1433.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Wappen_Deutscher_Bund.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Maerz1848_berlin.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Nationalversammlung.jpg

Black, White, Red is just Prussia.

[Johnston]

Well that's because you don't understand the symbolism of it. That flag represents Prussia and the little Germany-solution (without Austria). It's not a flag of the German people at all. The German flag has always had the Black, Red, Gold combination - dating back to the Holy Roman Empire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_-_Reichssturmfahne_vor_1433.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Maerz1848_berlin.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Nationalversammlung.jpg

Black, White, Red is just Prussia. I want Prussia its own independent nation like Austria. Germany ought to have closer connections to Holland and Luxembourg, Switzerland and Liechtenstein (a possible merger), instead of the eastern settlements. Perhaps Aachen should be the capital. That is if you are referring to the Reich.

[The Lawspeaker]

I want Prussia its own independent nation like Austria. Germany ought to have closer connections to Holland and Luxembourg, Switzerland and Liechtenstein (a possible merger), instead of the eastern settlements. Perhaps Aachen should be the capital. That is if you are referring to the Reich.

I suggest you stay out of such affairs. :D. Because you, frankly, haven't got a clue.

[Johnston]

I suggest you stay out of such affairs. :D. Because you, frankly, haven't got a clue.I proposed this stuff to begin with, and it has people thinking. Well, are you for West or East Germany? Most controversy stems from East Germany, whether Middle Ages or 20th century. I have not heard or seen the Carolingian West under much scrutiny at all in either period. Perhaps you do not like the Frankish connotations, but don't you speak a form of Low Franconian? How could you not benefit? No Lothringen/Lorraine for you?:confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

I proposed this stuff to begin with, and it has people thinking. Well, are you for West or East Germany? Most controversy stems from East Germany, whether Middle Ages or 20th century. I have not heard or seen the Carolingian West under much scrutiny at all in either period. Perhaps you do not like the Frankish connotations, but don't you speak a form of Low Franconian? How could you not benefit? No Lothringen/Lorraine for you?:confused:
It depends on whether Germany would pose a threat to it's neighbours. If so.. restore East and West Germany. East Germany's capital in Berlin. West Germany's in Bonn but add the lost territories (including Prussia) to East Germany and the Sudetenland and Elsass-Lothringen to West Germany.

If not: one unified Germany (and if the Austrians would want it - including Austria) with it's capital in Berlin. The Netherlands (incl. Belgium), Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Switzerland would probably not join Germany as mainly the Dutch/Belgians, Luxembourgers and Swiss value their independence a lot.

And when it comes to the Franconian stuff. Dutch is Low Franconian. Dutch are Franks, Saxons and Frisians.

[Johnston]

It depends on whether Germany would pose a threat to it's neighbours. If so.. restore East and West Germany. East Germany's capital in Berlin. West Germany's in Bonn but add the lost territories (including Prussia) to East Germany and the Sudetenland and Elsass-Lothringen to West Germany.

If not: one unified Germany (and if the Austrians would want it - including Austria) with it's capital in Berlin. The Netherlands (incl. Belgium), Luxembourg, Liechtenstein and Switzerland would probably not join Germany as mainly the Dutch/Belgians, Luxembourgers and Swiss value their independence a lot.

And when it comes to the Franconian stuff. Dutch is Low Franconian. Dutch are Franks, Saxons and Frisians.
Interesting nuances. You seem to place much value on hemispherical view of Continental Germania: N/S/E/W. If these conditions are observed, then there really is no point, because that is the status quo, save for the disappearance of Prussia in present conditions. Critics of the Germanic Prussia fail to note that at least the name would survive into posterity, even if it is not Baltic the way Lithuania and Latvia are. Perhaps the Baltic Duchy should be the alternative:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Baltic_Duchy

[The Lawspeaker]

Interesting nuances. You seem to place much value on hemispherical view of Continental Germania: N/S/E/W. If these conditions are observed, then there really is no point, because that is the status quo, save for the disappearance of Prussia in present conditions. Critics of the Germanic Prussia fail to note that at least the name would survive into posterity, even if it is not Baltic the way Lithuania and Latvia are. Perhaps the Baltic Duchy should be the alternative:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Baltic_Duchy
O.K.. you don't get it. Prussia is a German land and ought to be a German Bundesland. Note that the word land should be used as in soil (soil meaning something that is a part of the people) or a state as Bundesland in German. I place much value on the idea of a single nation - where possible as the Luxembourgers, Dutch (and Belgians) and Swiss would never want to join Germany. But maybe the Austrians and Liechtensteiners would.

It's called irredentism. The will to unite the people of your kin in one unified nation - in the same way as some Dutch want to unite the Netherlands and Flanders or even the Netherlands and the whole of Belgium.

Where as an all-German state would unite all of the German volk (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Volk) (apart from the Dutch and Swiss).. yours would create a conglomerate of peoples that have nothing to do with each other.

[Johnston]

O.K.. you don't get it. Prussia is a German land and ought to be a German Bundesland. Note that the word land should be used as in soil (soil meaning something that is a part of the people) or a state as Bundesland in German. I place much value on the idea of a single nation - where possible as the Luxembourgers, Dutch (and Belgians) and Swiss would never want to join Germany. But maybe the Austrians and Liechtensteiners would.

It's called irredentism. The will to unite the people of your kin in one unified nation - in the same way as some Dutch want to unite the Netherlands and Flanders or even the Netherlands and the whole of Belgium.

Where as an all-German state would unite all of the German volk (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Volk) (apart from the Dutch and Swiss).. yours would create a conglomerate of peoples that have nothing to do with each other. You are saying you do not care for pre-Prussian, or even pre-Austrian Germany, or Prussia in its own right? No monastic state of Teutonic Knights? Are you despaired at the culture and sustainability of Prussia as much as its opponents, vis a vis Austria? Independent Prussia would be as good as Oestmark/Oesterreich is, and they split from Bayern. How could you appreciate Prussia only as a sublimated province? I mean, it is nice Germany thought so well of Prussia to place them at the helm in lieu of Austria, but Germany is not Prussian to begin with (Germany is not a Baltic country--the North Sea is named the German Ocean for a reason), although Prussia is German (the German Baltic), and a Saxon (Plattdeutsch) offshoot in particular. You do see the difference, right? Prussia's downfall was taking Germany up on the offer to helm the Reich, because look at the thanks they got. They do not even exist now except in memories and a broken nation scattered like the Jews across the globe. Germany should look to the Rhineland and remember its origins, and let the eastern colonizers keep their own fortune away from prying jealous hands. I would be wary if I was Prussian or Austrian at the designs of Germany to take the gains of my countrymen out from under them through annexation. Who should profit from their labors?:(

[Arrow Cross]

Back on the map? Where exactly? Prussians have been so throughoutly cleansed from their lands by the Anti-Fascist Coalition of Equality, Peace and Love that they don't even make up one percent of the area's population now, as far as I know. The only way for Germans to re-establish the state is the way their enemies misplaced them; by invading the land and throwing the Poles and Russians living on it out. Won't happen in a good couple of centuries; but if you want it on the map, might I suggest Antarctica? As much as I admire pre-1945 Prussia, with "virtues" like this...


The count later rang me as I was taking the train back to Berlin. “Tolerance,” he barked. “Forgot to tell you—that’s the cardinal Prussian virtue. Make a note of it!”

...that'd be the most productive spot, as far as Europe is concerned.

[Johnston]

Back on the map? Where exactly? Prussians have been so throughoutly cleansed from their lands by the Anti-Fascist Coalition of Equality, Peace and Love that they don't even make up one percent of the area's population now, as far as I know. The only way for Germans to re-establish the state is the way their enemies misplaced them; by invading the land and throwing the Poles and Russians living on it out. Won't happen in a good couple of centuries; but if you want it on the map, might I suggest Antarctica? As much as I admire pre-1945 Prussia, with "virtues" like this...



...that'd be the most productive spot, as far as Europe is concerned.Do you miss what Austria did to your country?:embarrassed They domesticated the Hungarians and made them Christian Europeans. The Prussians did the same thing to the Balts.:D

[Arrow Cross]

Do you miss what Austria did to your country?:embarrassed They domesticated the Hungarians and made them Christian Europeans. The Prussians did the same thing to the Balts.:D
Oh, please, should I throw Wikipedia links at you now? Where were the Germans of Ostmark in 1000AD, when this country became a kingdom and christened itself?

I'm telling you; licking their wounds after half a century of devastating Magyar raids.

[Johnston]

Oh, please, should I throw Wikipedia links at you now? Where were the Germans of Ostmark in 1000AD, when this country became a kingdom and christened itself?

I'm telling you; licking their wounds after half a century of devastating Magyar raids.Yes, that's how things were to be, century after century, up until WWI? Right...:rolleyes:

[Arrow Cross]

Yes, that's how things were to be, century after century, up until WWI? Right...:rolleyes:
Up until 1526, when the House of Habsburg was able to move in following the defeat against the Ottoman Empire at Mohács, and the death of our king. But this isn't the topic here.

Now, do you have any more Yankee pseudo-history to share with us, or shall we return to Prussia?

[Johnston]

Up until 1526, when the House of Habsburg was able to move in following the defeat against the Ottoman Empire at Mohács, and the death of our king. But this isn't the topic here.

Now, do you have any more Yankee pseudo-history to share with us, or shall we return to Prussia?I compared the eastward movement of Prussia with Austria. They were both German colonies meant to stem the advance of peoples from that region, and I have maps showing their conquests. Quite beautiful and spectacular. They have turned the simpletons out there into perfect clones of themselves, and that is what you call civilizing. The French did that all over Earth, but the Germanic version is more glorious, and has people all over these forums shouting Heil Hitler in imitation. The product of English imperialism, like this Yank here, have as much to benefit from this as the next person, albeit, as one of the conquerors, and not the conquered. Thanks!:rolleyes2:

[Fred]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?78897-Do-you-also-think-that-its-time-for-Prussia-to-secede-from-Germany&p=4393031#post4393031

I wish Frederick could have seen this. He was so insightful!