Mark your matches on a map

[Kaspias]

This is a solid way to estimate your ancestral locations. I invite you to a deep dive into your matches!

Don't be too general and work on only meaningful matches. They can be from any site or company, it doesn't matter. Tool: https://www.mapmarker.app/webapp/

Autosomal matches:

Green: My documented ancestry.
Blue: Turks.
Orange: Pomaks.


https://i.ibb.co/MS1Yy6n/Marked.png

Yellow: Bulgarians
Purple: Greeks
Brown: Anatolian Turks
Pink: Serbians
Gray: Romanians
Weird gray: Gagauz

https://i.ibb.co/Xsvzgrm/mark3.png

[Lucas]

Grandparents /GGparents birth locations


https://i.imgur.com/AZ6wiQ5.png

[Adamm]

matches based upon what?

[Lucas]

Y-DNA matches from FTDNA

https://i.imgur.com/vcmzDsx.png

I don't know why on this map aren't located matches from Kabardinian and Dersim Kurd. They are on match list with added locations.

[Kaspias]

matches based upon what?

Autosomal, Y, MT DNA.


Y-DNA matches from FTDNA

https://i.imgur.com/vcmzDsx.png

Cool! I wish I had some Y matches to post.

[Coastal Elite]

Relatives in Munster in 1775

https://i.imgur.com/hcOzaEF.jpg

[Adamm]

Based upon my closest autosomal matches:

https://i.imgur.com/f9QGe3z.png

[Thracian]

Yellow: My documented ancestry(1/2 Kardzhali, 1/4 Veliko Tarnovo, 1/4 Gevgelija)
Red: Turks
Green:Bulgarians
Blue:Greeks
Grey:Romanian
Brown:Albanian
Weird Green: Macedonian

https://i.ibb.co/F6yNz3C/matches.png

I collected them from 23andMe. I made this according to,

1- 4/4 ancestry from the same country
2- Matches should be over 0.15%
3- Also some surnames -I had these surnames, Ivanov (4), Ionescu (3) and Ganev (3), and all individuals were from the same region/city-

There are a few interesting things that I saw,

1- I did not add but I have many Romanian matches and one of them from Bitola, the others are from Southern Romania. I only have 1 Albanian match, he is also from Bitola, I do not have any Albanian match except this guy.
2- I couldn't add matches from Turkey because picture becomes terrible but I have a few matches from Sivas Divrigi and Erzincan.
3- All of my Turkish matches from Bulgaria are from Kardzgali and Haskovo. My closest match is a Bulgarian now.

[Arap Cumali]

Pomaks are Generally Turkish, Pomak culture and Their Living Style similar to turks. thats make pomaks are turk.and also pomak People loves Ataturk and Turkey. my father is also turkish Nationalist.
but pomaks are genetically Slavic.

dostum bence pomaklar turk olarak kabul edilmeli, pomaklar milliyetci vatanini seven turk gibi yasayan insanlardir, benim babamda pomaktir. Ulkuculugumu Milliyetciligimi, babamdan aldim. ayrica babam da bende mhp liyiz turk milliyetcisiyiz. vede ataturkcuyuz

[Bender1999]

Pomaks are Generally Turkish, Pomak culture and Their Living Style similar to turks. thats make pomaks are turk.and also pomak People loves Ataturk and Turkey. my father is also turkish Nationalist.
but pomaks are genetically Slavic.

dostum bence pomaklar turk olarak kabul edilmeli, pomaklar milliyetci vatanini seven turk gibi yasayan insanlardir, benim babamda pomaktir. Ulkuculugumu Milliyetciligimi, babamdan aldim. ayrica babam da bende mhp liyiz turk milliyetcisiyiz. vede ataturkcuyuz

Lol ridiculous

[Arap Cumali]

Lol ridiculous

sacma mi, bi ara pomak koylerine ugra da gor, tabi her pomak boyle olacak diye birsey yok. ama gordugum pomaklar genellikel boyleydi. kaspias daha iyi bilir.

[Bender1999]

sacma mi, bi ara pomak koylerine ugra da gor, tabi her pomak boyle olacak diye birsey yok. ama gordugum pomaklar genellikel boyleydi. kaspias daha iyi bilir.

Pomkları türk yapmak doğru birşey değil, bizi ve Türkiyeyi sevmeleri onları Türk yapmaz. Ama bizim milletin ayrılamaz bir parçası diyebiliriz ama onların etnik kimliğini yok saymak doğru değil.

[Arap Cumali]

Pomkları türk yapmak doğru birşey değil, bizi ve Türkiyeyi sevmeleri onları Türk yapmaz. Ama bizim milletin ayrılamaz bir parçası diyebiliriz ama onların etnik kimliğini yok saymak doğru değil.

pomaklar turktur gardasim ben bana guven, turkiyede 20 milyon civari balkan gocmeni kokenli insan var ayrica bulgaristandan vede yunanistandan goc eden turklerin bir kismida pomaktir ama turk olarak tanitirlar kendilerini asimile olmuslar tahmin ederimki turkiyede asimile olmuslarla birlikte 3.5-4 milyon pomak var

[Bosniensis]

23andMe & FTDNA mix, not the most precise

https://i.imgur.com/ZalyFHF.png

[Kaspias]

Pomkları türk yapmak doğru birşey değil, bizi ve Türkiyeyi sevmeleri onları Türk yapmaz. Ama bizim milletin ayrılamaz bir parçası diyebiliriz ama onların etnik kimliğini yok saymak doğru değil.


pomaklar turktur gardasim ben bana guven, turkiyede 20 milyon civari balkan gocmeni kokenli insan var ayrica bulgaristandan vede yunanistandan goc eden turklerin bir kismida pomaktir ama turk olarak tanitirlar kendilerini asimile olmuslar tahmin ederimki turkiyede asimile olmuslarla birlikte 3.5-4 milyon pomak var

Sosyal anlamda Pomaklar Türktür, hatta genel anlamda daha tutucular. Bulgaristan'da yaşayan bir kısım Pomak hariç tüm Pomak toplumu Türk olarak geçer zaten(Paşmaklı harici çoğunluğu Bulgar der kendine. Paşmaklı ve Kırcaali'de yaşayanlar hala Türk olarak tanımlar.) Yunanistan'da da müslüman nüfus ikiye ayrılır; Pomak Türkleri ve Çıtak Türkleri derler. Türkiye'deki nüfus 1.5 milyon civarındadır. Makedonya'dan gelen Pomakların(Orta & Doğu) çoğu geldiklerinde zaten kendisine Türk diyordu. Gerçekten bir çoğu Balkan Türkleri içinde asimile olmuş, Arnavut ve Boşnak bu anlamda ayırt edilebilirken Pomaklar iç içe geçmiş.

Ama etnik anlamda ki genetiği etkileyen faktör bu Türk katkısından yoksunlar. Balkan Türkleri ile de bu anlamda ayrılıyorlar. Pomak kimliğini korumak en sağlıklısı bu durumda.

[Arap Cumali]

Sosyal anlamda Pomaklar Türktür, hatta genel anlamda daha tutucular. Bulgaristan'da yaşayan bir kısım Pomak hariç tüm Pomak toplumu Türk olarak geçer zaten(Paşmaklı harici çoğunluğu Bulgar der kendine. Paşmaklı ve Kırcaali'de yaşayanlar hala Türk olarak tanımlar.) Yunanistan'da da müslüman nüfus ikiye ayrılır; Pomak Türkleri ve Çıtak Türkleri derler. Türkiye'deki nüfus 1.5 milyon civarındadır. Makedonya'dan gelen Pomakların(Orta & Doğu) çoğu geldiklerinde zaten kendisine Türk diyordu. Gerçekten bir çoğu Balkan Türkleri içinde asimile olmuş, Arnavut ve Boşnak bu anlamda ayırt edilebilirken Pomaklar iç içe geçmiş.

Ama etnik anlamda ki genetiği etkileyen faktör bu Türk katkısından yoksunlar. Balkan Türkleri ile de bu anlamda ayrılıyorlar. Pomak kimliğini korumak en sağlıklısı bu durumda.

pomaklar balkan turklerine kala biraz daha sarisinlar, sanirim o sarisin olan balkan turkleri pomak kokenli ben onu fark ettim. benim babam pomak ama onun tipi Dinarid-Alpine arasi pomaklar icinde ne kadar yaygin bu fenotip bilmiyorum ama benim anne tarafida Pontid-Armenoid vede North Pontid-Turanid karisimi. kafkas ve karadeniz kokenli bende Pontid-Armenoid agirlikliyim. anne tarafina benzedigim icin ama tenim beyaz aslinda bende tam karadenizli tipi var herkes beni karadenizliye benzetiyor samsun diyen oldu, ordu giresun diyen oldu trabzon diyen oldu, amasya diyen oldu tokat diyen oldu, sinop diyen de oldu ic anadolu ve karadeniz e benzetiyolar beni genellikle. benim sana sorum pomaklar arasinda Armenoid etkili olanlar varmidir?

[Kyp]

https://i.imgur.com/VwXeXyy.png

Only used Myheritage:

Green = German & German-American
Red = Danish
Yellow = Swedish
Blue = Azerbaijani


Edit: forgot the Ukrainian one (also in green)

[Kaspias]

.

I updated thread with non-Balkan Turk and non-Pomak matches. Do you think is it possible to make a prediction based on them? I see some connection on the map but want to take your opinion first.

[Thracian]

I updated thread with non-Balkan Turk and non-Pomak matches. Do you think is it possible to make a prediction based on them? I see some connection on the map but want to take your opinion first.

I believe so. At least, it have me a lot of hints for me.

- Romanian: Can be indicated both Slavic and Aromanian ancestry. In my case, it was clear because I had a Romanian and an Albanian from Bitola and they are probably Aromanians because I do not have any Albanian matches other than him. In your case, it is hard to say.
- Bulgarian and Serbian: I checked my Serbian matches, I did not add them first. They are from, Smederevo, Lozovik and Lokve (Vojvodina) (2 different people from this region). I do not have match from Eastern Serbia. My Croatian matches are from Hajduk but just like Serbs and Poles they do not tell me anything. But in your case, your matches are generally from Eastern Serbia and it supports your Torbeshi -if I am not mistaken- idea. On the other hand, Eastern Serbians and Bulgarians can be related directly your Pomak and Balkan Turkish ancestry as well.
- Greece: interestingly you have a lot of Islanders, I only had a guy he was half Cretan and half Mainlander. You also have matches from Peloponnese. Epirus can be related with Albanians.
- Moldova: most likely common Slavic ancestor.
- Turkey: Well this really supports possible Yoruk ancestry, as you know there are many Yoruks in Toros mt. Also, Denizli, Balıkesir and Aydın have significant Yoruk population. Not sure about Corum,

What are your thoughts about your map?

[Chris596]

Alright, here's mine, I tried my best. These are literally my top 13 matches from Myheritage (largest shared DNA segments)

https://i.imgur.com/iyurFBw.png

Red: 2 people from Hungary, one of them is my relative
Grey: all of them have Serbian names, mostly from the USA or Germany, so I put them on Serbia (Balkan ancestry)
Blue: Romanians from Germany, Sweden, etc so I put them on Romania, 2 of them are from Szeklerland and one is from Maramures (very close match, interesting)
Yellow: Russians, one from Saint-Petersburg (unknown, but very close match), and one from Moscow and she told me they have roots from Kazakhstan as well, so maybe that's also Central-Asian ancestry, not only Eastern-European

[Rgvgjhvv]

Also, Denizli, Balıkesir and Aydın have significant Yoruk population.


Represent

[Kaspias]

I believe so. At least, it have me a lot of hints for me.

- Romanian: Can be indicated both Slavic and Aromanian ancestry. In my case, it was clear because I had a Romanian and an Albanian from Bitola and they are probably Aromanians because I do not have any Albanian matches other than him. In your case, it is hard to say.
- Bulgarian and Serbian: I checked my Serbian matches, I did not add them first. They are from, Smederevo, Lozovik and Lokve (Vojvodina) (2 different people from this region). I do not have match from Eastern Serbia. My Croatian matches are from Hajduk but just like Serbs and Poles they do not tell me anything. But in your case, your matches are generally from Eastern Serbia and it supports your Torbeshi -if I am not mistaken- idea. On the other hand, Eastern Serbians and Bulgarians can be related directly your Pomak and Balkan Turkish ancestry as well.
- Greece: interestingly you have a lot of Islanders, I only had a guy he was half Cretan and half Mainlander. You also have matches from Peloponnese. Epirus can be related with Albanians.
- Moldova: most likely common Slavic ancestor.
- Turkey: Well this really supports possible Yoruk ancestry, as you know there are many Yoruks in Toros mt. Also, Denizli, Balıkesir and Aydın have significant Yoruk population. Not sure about Corum,

What are your thoughts about your map?

Regarding my matches the hotspots are like this; father and mother resp.

(I ignore Vojvodinian and Transylvanian matches as there is no land connection with the rest, I also had ignored Bosnian, Polish, Croatian, and Italian matches and didn't even mark them.)

https://i.ibb.co/1v2Kfdq/MAP.jpg

For my mother,

She had Shopi surname as I mentioned before and speak a different dialect of Pomak than regular Thracian Pomaks. I'm almost sure that my maternal grandfather's line has roots from SE Serbia, but my maternal grandmother is supposed to be regular Pomak. I connect Serbian matches to my maternal side.

For my father,

It is a bit confusing. There is two-component to evaluate:

- Balkan
- Turkic

Turkic,


Turkic part in ancestral meaning possibly includes Beyliks such as Karesi, Aydın, Menteşe, Karaman, Saruhan, Osman, and Çorum either should be about Celali migrations or expelling of Tatars(from Kastamonu-Çorum to Rumelia) in the 15th century. Also late Tatar settlements.
Turkic part in terms of associations of Yörük formed after settling in the Balkans includes: Selanik Yürükleri, Vize Yürükleri, Tanrıdağı Yürükleri, Naldöken Yürükleri. So, basically all of them.



How do I know?

Ancestral: Matches from Anatolia, 23andMe regions, and the information I shared in this thread: Turkic Migration to the Balkans (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316809-Turkic-Migration-to-the-Balkans)
Associations: My regular matches are already covering Vize, Tanrıdağı, and Naldöken. I also have a match from Radovish, North Macedonia where supposedly belonged to Selanik Yürük group.

Worth to mention that migration history in Ottomans are not well-written and there were only one sole Turkish identification, so any other option possible. But what are the possibilities?


Presence of Turkic groups in the region before Ottoman arrive
Late migration of Iranian Turkmens(Avshars)
Migration of a different group of Tatars from North, presumably from around Moldova.


It is hard to comment on these, but it is better to mention.


Balkan,

I have a decent explanation for Romanian matches. (Romania is usually the first country in my match ranking) My paternal grandfather's line known as Çıtaklar as ancestrally, and also Sırtmaçlar at the same time. Sırtmaç means cowherd that Vlachs are used to be usually. Evliya Çelebi(a famous Turkish traveler lived in the 17th century) explains Çıtaklar as such:


Evliya Çelebi, who traveled around Anatolia and the Balkans in the 17th century, mentioned the northeast of Bulgaria as the Uz (Oğuz) region, and that a society named Çıtak consisting of medium-sized, cheerful and strong people lived in Silistra, and also known as the "Dobruca Çıtakları" in Dobruca. He also emphasizes that "Çıtaklar" is made up of a mixture of Tatars, Vlach, and Bulgarians.

The migration of these people from North to South dates to pre and post-Russo-Turkish War. Thrace consists of a great amount of these people, but they usually don't know where they come. I also know that Turks were present in today's Wallachia despite Wallachia was not in direct control of Turks. Targovishte(Romanian one) and Dobrudja(North, until Moldova) were mostly Turkish(/Tatar) according to Ottoman registers. So, it is safe to painting these regions on my hotspot map. On the other hand, the match who is in Moldova is a Gagauz. The homeland of Gagauz is Eastern Bulgaria(Deliorman mostly, also Thrace) so it is perfectly normal. Bulgarian matches seem to be in line as well.

The most interesting part in this story is location of Greek matches. I mean, I was expecting a lot of Greek matches but Islands and such Southern regions? No, I didn't expect. I believe I have an explanation though:

The islands such as Thasos and Samothraki were regular Thracian before Ottomans but I don't know if islands emptied or not after Ottoman conquest. If they weren't, North Aegea Islands explainable. If they were, this should mean there is a population transfer from Peloponnese to these Islands. Why Peloponnese? Because emptying of Islands(escaping of Greeks) was a common occurred in most Islands, and afterward, Ottomans give some privileges to Peloponnesians who get used to trading to settle in Islands and continue their trade there, there was happened a mass migration during the Empire. A similar process, coincidentally, happened in the first years of Greece.

Arrows point out Peloponnese, but what explains it? It is also explainable in some ways:


Turkish population literally disappeared from Morea after Greek revolt. We know that most of them died, but the ones who succeed to escape might be gone to the North.
Greek population in Thrace is mostly not native, I mean, there were of course native Greeks but they are all mixed with Turks. The Greek regions such as Alexandroupoli, Tekirdağ, Gelibolu were recent colonizers who came from the South. If there is mixing with non-Muslims after the 1750s, the type of Greeks would be Southern Greeks as Northern ones completely disappeared.
I mentioned that I also have ancestry from Selanik-Tırhala Yürük group, who lives in the Southernmost region of the Turkish line, extends to Ioannina.
There is also a great chance to be from ancient Greek heritage. (Mycenaean > Thracian > Bulgarian/Vlach/Pomak)


So, Islands are probably doesn't mean that I have an ancestor from these regions but about a more complex issue. I may have an ancestor from Southern Greece and the explanation of it various migrations of Southerns to the North, or a Balkan Turk lived there. Ancient option is creditable as well. On the other hand, I couldn't find meaningful Albanian and Macedonian matches.

That's all I know for now.



Edit: I also had an intention to re-classify Balkan Turkish dialects(as the previous classification offered is not enough to evaluate it well, and the study was not covering entire Balkan Turk community) and prepared a demo last year. This chart is made by according to it. Don't take it so seriously as I'm an amateur still.

https://i.ibb.co/F8HXKy9/sfa.png

[Lucas]

https://i.ibb.co/1v2Kfdq/MAP.jpg

.

Do you have template for those maps?

[Kaspias]

Do you have template for those maps?

I used this site: https://mapchart.net/europe-detailed.html

[vbnetkhio]

Alright, here's mine, I tried my best. These are literally my top 13 matches from Myheritage (largest shared DNA segments)

https://i.imgur.com/iyurFBw.png

Red: 2 people from Hungary, one of them is my relative
Grey: all of them have Serbian names, mostly from the USA or Germany, so I put them on Serbia (Balkan ancestry)
Blue: Romanians from Germany, Sweden, etc so I put them on Romania, 2 of them are from Szeklerland and one is from Maramures (very close match, interesting)
Yellow: Russians, one from Saint-Petersburg (unknown, but very close match), and one from Moscow and she told me they have roots from Kazakhstan as well, so maybe that's also Central-Asian ancestry, not only Eastern-European

those Serbs probably have Romanian ancestry

[Chris596]

those Serbs probably have Romanian ancestry

I have South Slavic ancestors from my Hungarian side. + Serbian is my first match on almost every calculator

Edit: of course, that's also possible

[Halgurd]

I’m using 23andme for this, I have less than 80 matches in total so I think there may be some merit to the matches that I have got. I’ve only included the ones that have provided their locations.

Red=where my ancestors are from

Blue=Kurd
Orange=Iranian
Grey= Assyrian
Brown= Azeri
Turquoise= Circassian
Light green= Arab

The person who established my family was born around 1750. He was known to have 12 sons (daughters unknown), some of whom migrated towards other areas.
We know that one of his sons migrated to Samarra (probably explains the Arab match), and one of his sons migrated to Van (although I have no matches there from 23andme). Some of his sons also migrated elsewhere, but it is not known where they went.

I have a couple of Azeri matches, but only one has provided a proper location. This Azeri seems to be from a town in Armenia. I have a couple Armenian matches too (which I can tell from their surnames, both matches have the same surname), but again they have not provided a location.

I have a couple Assyrian matches too (I think 3 in total), all of whom seem to have heritage from predominantly Kurdish areas.

There were many Circassian migrations to Kurdistan and visa versa, which probably explains the Circassian match. I seem to have many matches from Russia, without specifying a specific location, but i suspect that they are all from somewhere around the Caucasus.

Edit: The Iranian match from Zanjan (in orange) is ethnic Azeri, I just noticed this now.

https://i.ibb.co/1LNcSsS/D1326-AFD-8-BE9-49-F5-BEA0-804-E84864-A07.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

I have South Slavic ancestors from my Hungarian side.
oh, i thought you were 100% Szekely.

i made a map of the commmon matches of me and my Romanian matches to figure out how we're related:

https://i.imgur.com/R2BJIyx.png

i think this is our connection:


Starting in the early 18th century NE Serbia was settled by Romanians (then known by their international exonym as Vlachs) from Banat, parts of Transylvania, and Oltenia (Lesser Walachia).[8] These are the Ungureni (Ungurjani), Munteni (Munćani) and Bufeni (Bufani). Today about three quarters of the Vlach population speak the Ungurean subdialect. In the 19th century other groups of Romanians, originating in Oltenia (Lesser Wallachia), also settled south of the Danube.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians_of_Serbia

the distribution of your Serbian matches looks very similar to this.

[Bosniensis]

Among Greeks, 3rd cousins are (4 grandparents) : 6 of them (Greek last names)

Among Romanians, 3rd cousins are (4 grandparents): 15 of them (various Romanian last names)

Among Serbians, 3rd cousins are (4 grandparents): 16 of them (various Serbian last names)

Among Albanians, 3rd cousins are (4 grandparents): 12 of them (various Albanian last names)

Among Croatian, 3rd cousins are (4 grandparents): 31 of them (Various Croatians, predominantly Dalmatia)

Among Bosnians, 3rd cousins are (4 grandparents): 57 of them (Various Bosniaks people of Bosnia)

[Rgvgjhvv]

For this round, I decided to just to use 23andMe. I went 4-5 pages deep into my closest DNA relatives and these were there reported places of ancestry. I did not include duplicates. The highest frequency was Samos, Chios, and Tripoli.

My matches are almost entirely Greek:

https://i.imgur.com/KenM6G8.png

But funnily enough, two of my matches are Mexicans!

https://i.imgur.com/ziQcs9G.png

[Chris596]

But funnily enough, two of my matches are Mexicans!


Amerindian stronk :P

Next time, should I also include my matches from Japan and Hong Kong? lol

[Rgvgjhvv]

For this round, I decided to just to use 23andMe. I went 4-5 pages deep into my closest DNA relatives and these were there reported places of ancestry. I did not include duplicates. The highest frequency was Samos, Chios, and Tripoli.

My matches are almost entirely Greek:

https://i.imgur.com/KenM6G8.png

But funnily enough, two of my matches are Mexicans!

https://i.imgur.com/ziQcs9G.png

Of course, I am assuming half of these places aren't directly related to me, and are from the other side of my dna's relatives.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Amerindian stronk :P

Next time, should I also include my matches from Japan and Hong Kong? lol

One of the Mexicans is literally my second highest match, lol.

[Thracian]

Regarding my matches the hotspots are like this; father and mother resp.

(I ignore Vojvodinian and Transylvanian matches as there is no land connection with the rest, I also had ignored Bosnian, Polish, Croatian, and Italian matches and didn't even mark them.)

https://i.ibb.co/1v2Kfdq/MAP.jpg

For my mother,

She had Shopi surname as I mentioned before and speak a different dialect of Pomak than regular Thracian Pomaks. I'm almost sure that my maternal grandfather's line has roots from SE Serbia, but my maternal grandmother is supposed to be regular Pomak. I connect Serbian matches to my maternal side.

For my father,

It is a bit confusing. There is two-component to evaluate:

- Balkan
- Turkic

Turkic,


Turkic part in ancestral meaning possibly includes Beyliks such as Karesi, Aydın, Menteşe, Karaman, Saruhan, Osman, and Çorum either should be about Celali migrations or expelling of Tatars(from Kastamonu-Çorum to Rumelia) in the 15th century. Also late Tatar settlements.
Turkic part in terms of associations of Yörük formed after settling in the Balkans includes: Selanik Yürükleri, Vize Yürükleri, Tanrıdağı Yürükleri, Naldöken Yürükleri. So, basically all of them.



How do I know?

Ancestral: Matches from Anatolia, 23andMe regions, and the information I shared in this thread: Turkic Migration to the Balkans (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316809-Turkic-Migration-to-the-Balkans)
Associations: My regular matches are already covering Vize, Tanrıdağı, and Naldöken. I also have a match from Radovish, North Macedonia where supposedly belonged to Selanik Yürük group.

Worth to mention that migration history in Ottomans are not well-written and there were only one sole Turkish identification, so any other option possible. But what are the possibilities?


Presence of Turkic groups in the region before Ottoman arrive
Late migration of Iranian Turkmens(Avshars)
Migration of a different group of Tatars from North, presumably from around Moldova.


It is hard to comment on these, but it is better to mention.


Balkan,

I have a decent explanation for Romanian matches. (Romania is usually the first country in my match ranking) My paternal grandfather's line known as Çıtaklar as ancestrally, and also Sırtmaçlar at the same time. Sırtmaç means cowherd that Vlachs are used to be usually. Evliya Çelebi(a famous Turkish traveler lived in the 17th century) explains Çıtaklar as such:



The migration of these people from North to South dates to pre and post-Russo-Turkish War. Thrace consists of a great amount of these people, but they usually don't know where they come. I also know that Turks were present in today's Wallachia despite Wallachia was not in direct control of Turks. Targovishte(Romanian one) and Dobrudja(North, until Moldova) were mostly Turkish(/Tatar) according to Ottoman registers. So, it is safe to painting these regions on my hotspot map. On the other hand, the match who is in Moldova is a Gagauz. The homeland of Gagauz is Eastern Bulgaria(Deliorman mostly, also Thrace) so it is perfectly normal. Bulgarian matches seem to be in line as well.

The most interesting part in this story is location of Greek matches. I mean, I was expecting a lot of Greek matches but Islands and such Southern regions? No, I didn't expect. I believe I have an explanation though:

The islands such as Thasos and Samothraki were regular Thracian before Ottomans but I don't know if islands emptied or not after Ottoman conquest. If they weren't, North Aegea Islands explainable. If they were, this should mean there is a population transfer from Peloponnese to these Islands. Why Peloponnese? Because emptying of Islands(escaping of Greeks) was a common occurred in most Islands, and afterward, Ottomans give some privileges to Peloponnesians who get used to trading to settle in Islands and continue their trade there, there was happened a mass migration during the Empire. A similar process, coincidentally, happened in the first years of Greece.

Arrows point out Peloponnese, but what explains it? It is also explainable in some ways:


Turkish population literally disappeared from Morea after Greek revolt. We know that most of them died, but the ones who succeed to escape might be gone to the North.
Greek population in Thrace is mostly not native, I mean, there were of course native Greeks but they are all mixed with Turks. The Greek regions such as Alexandroupoli, Tekirdağ, Gelibolu were recent colonizers who came from the South. If there is mixing with non-Muslims after the 1750s, the type of Greeks would be Southern Greeks as Northern ones completely disappeared.
I mentioned that I also have ancestry from Selanik-Tırhala Yürük group, who lives in the Southernmost region of the Turkish line, extends to Ioannina.
There is also a great chance to be from ancient Greek heritage. (Mycenaean > Thracian > Bulgarian/Vlach/Pomak)


So, Islands are probably doesn't mean that I have an ancestor from these regions but about a more complex issue. I may have an ancestor from Southern Greece and the explanation of it various migrations of Southerns to the North, or a Balkan Turk lived there. Ancient option is creditable as well. On the other hand, I couldn't find meaningful Albanian and Macedonian matches.

That's all I know for now.



Edit: I also had an intention to re-classify Balkan Turkish dialects(as the previous classification offered is not enough to evaluate it well, and the study was not covering entire Balkan Turk community) and prepared a demo last year. This chart is made by according to it. Don't take it so seriously as I'm an amateur still.

https://i.ibb.co/F8HXKy9/sfa.png

Impressive.

Turkic,

To me, the best candidate for you Yoruks in your case. For me, probably late migrations of Turkmens from Iran.

Balkan,

That fits with it perfectly.

My Romanian matches are mostly from Targovishte.

Well, as far as I know Gagauz and Gacals are related. Many people claims Gacals are native to Eastern Thrace but they are also in Northern Bulgaria. Maybe you have some Gacal/Gagauz ancestry.

- Were not they just Muslim Greeks? As far as I know, Turks did not resettle in Morea.
- Greek matches could be either because of ancient heritage, as you know they mixed with native Thracians later or could be real matches.

This chart looks great. As far as I know, like you mentioned, Gırcali agzi is the same with Karamanids.

[Jana]

No point to do this for me. Most of my closest matches are Americans who are mixed ethnically. But very nice thread idea.

[17571imre]

No point to do this for me. Most of my closest matches are Americans who are mixed ethnically. But very nice thread idea.

same for me unfortunately

[Kaspias]

Impressive.

Turkic,

To me, the best candidate for you Yoruks in your case. For me, probably late migrations of Turkmens from Iran.

Balkan,

That fits with it perfectly.

My Romanian matches are mostly from Targovishte.

Well, as far as I know Gagauz and Gacals are related. Many people claims Gacals are native to Eastern Thrace but they are also in Northern Bulgaria. Maybe you have some Gacal/Gagauz ancestry.

- Were not they just Muslim Greeks? As far as I know, Turks did not resettle in Morea.
- Greek matches could be either because of ancient heritage, as you know they mixed with native Thracians later or could be real matches.

This chart looks great. As far as I know, like you mentioned, Gırcali agzi is the same with Karamanids.

Thank you. I think so. Either there is a late migration from Iran or about Celali rebellions in your case. There is one thing I should mention that these Early Yörüks I mentioned as a 4% EE contribution at maximum. The regions that took only early Yörük migration and didn't affect from Celali such as Kavala, the majority of Northern Macedonia has typically 1 to 4% East Eurasian. Any score above it should be regarded a recent boost on Turkic admixture. In this sense, almost whole Thrace as being 7-8% EE average has this recent input, including I. The thing which makes a difference that probably I inherited more from those early ones, and possibly Tatar covers some part of Oghuz. These all caused to inherit less Iranian.

I don't really know what Gacals exactly. Only Gacal sample I had was half Bulgarian Turk, and EE amount was quite low. It makes sense to me as well the connect Gacal and Gagauz tbh.

Gagauz speaks Deliorman, Gacal speaks Thracian dialect/accent. Should be an indicator where they are actually from, isn't it?

- Were not they just Muslim Greeks? As far as I know, Turks did not resettle in Morea.


The 16th century also was host to a number of transfers undertaken as the Ottomans attempted to put down a series of insurgencies by the empire's disaffected tribalist Türkmen population. Responding to the pro-pastoralist shi'i propaganda of the new Ottoman rival to the east, Safavids, these tribesmen-called Kızılbaş were subject to harsh crack-downs starting in the reign of Bayezit II. In response to growing Safavid support withing the empire, in 1502 the sultan ordered the deportation of Kızılbaş from Teke, Hamid and elsewhere in Anatolia to Coron and Modon in the Morea. A decade later, such fears were confirmed with the outbreak of a major pro-Safavid rebellion in Teke in 1511. Such revolts, predominantly among the Türkmen, continued periodically through the mid-16th century, notably again in 1519 and 1526-8 as did measures taken to curb their disruptive power.

[JerryS.]

I have scads of Gedmatch cousins, but none list their country of origin. most are American I'm sure and of mixed European backgrounds like myself. No practical way for me to plot them on a map like what's done here.

[Kaspias]

For everyone who has not participated:

You don't necessarily need to mark your close matches. It can be in any degree as long as it is meaningful to you. Sometimes 7cM match can be more helpful than a random 50cM match. Make a quick scanning regarding names/surnames in the language you are looking for. Check their results to confirm and mail them about their origins. What I have posted here is a result of long searches, and I couldn't reach the information I have without doing it.

[Thracian]

Thank you. I think so. Either there is a late migration from Iran or about Celali rebellions in your case. There is one thing I should mention that these Early Yörüks I mentioned as a 4% EE contribution at maximum. The regions that took only early Yörük migration and didn't affect from Celali such as Kavala, the majority of Northern Macedonia has typically 1 to 4% East Eurasian. Any score above it should be regarded a recent boost on Turkic admixture. In this sense, almost whole Thrace as being 7-8% EE average has this recent input, including I. The thing which makes a difference that probably I inherited more from those early ones, and possibly Tatar covers some part of Oghuz. These all caused to inherit less Iranian.

I don't really know what Gacals exactly. Only Gacal sample I had was half Bulgarian Turk, and EE amount was quite low. It makes sense to me as well the connect Gacal and Gagauz tbh.

Gagauz speaks Deliorman, Gacal speaks Thracian dialect/accent. Should be an indicator where they are actually from, isn't it?

- Were not they just Muslim Greeks? As far as I know, Turks did not resettle in Morea.


The 16th century also was host to a number of transfers undertaken as the Ottomans attempted to put down a series of insurgencies by the empire's disaffected tribalist Türkmen population. Responding to the pro-pastoralist shi'i propaganda of the new Ottoman rival to the east, Safavids, these tribesmen-called Kızılbaş were subject to harsh crack-downs starting in the reign of Bayezit II. In response to growing Safavid support withing the empire, in 1502 the sultan ordered the deportation of Kızılbaş from Teke, Hamid and elsewhere in Anatolia to Coron and Modon in the Morea. A decade later, such fears were confirmed with the outbreak of a major pro-Safavid rebellion in Teke in 1511. Such revolts, predominantly among the Türkmen, continued periodically through the mid-16th century, notably again in 1519 and 1526-8 as did measures taken to curb their disruptive power.

They should score less Iranic than late migrations, I assume.

Gacals are known as native to Eastern Thrace in Eastern Thrace, they do not have ancestry from Bulgaria. However, this is not true. There are some Gacals from Northern Bulgaria as well. Maybe, I am really noy good for dialects, because people can change their dialects easily. None of my ancestors were not speaking Gırcali agzi but fluent Istanbul Turkish except older ones like my great grandfather.

[Luso]

how do you guys find this information out?

[Kaspias]

They should score less Iranic than late migrations, I assume.

Gacals are known as native to Eastern Thrace in Eastern Thrace, they do not have ancestry from Bulgaria. However, this is not true. There are some Gacals from Northern Bulgaria as well. Maybe, I am really noy good for dialects, because people can change their dialects easily. None of my ancestors were not speaking Gırcali agzi but fluent Istanbul Turkish except older ones like my great grandfather.

Thrace scores 8 to 11 Gedrosia(mix of all settlements), Macedonia scores 4 to 6(only early yörük / early tatar) Gedrosia. I probably score similar amount of Gedrosia with you but ratio of East Eurasian varies the oracles.

Gacals from Northern Bulgaria? First time have heard. I know that they known as natives of Eastern Thrace and I actually agree so too but wonder what caused such identification on them.

Do your grandparents speak Gırcalı? I speak almost standard Thracian, my father has a called heavy Balkan Yörük, my mother has a Pomak accent.

[Kaspias]

how do you guys find this information out?

23andme regions and e-mailing them directly.

[Adamm]

how do you guys find this information out?

People can write the cities and areas of ancestry with 23andMe, that's how I did it. I checked the ancestry places of the closest 23andMe matches who mentioned their place of origin and used that information on the map.

[Faklon]

Brown: Anatolian Turks


Well played

[TheMaestro]

Maternal FTDNA

https://i.imgur.com/cPdtYDb.jpg

Paternal FTDNA

https://i.imgur.com/jUfVzRN.jpg

As far as I know

https://i.imgur.com/wnKlWMP.jpg

[Thracian]

Thrace scores 8 to 11 Gedrosia(mix of all settlements), Macedonia scores 4 to 6(only early yörük / early tatar) Gedrosia. I probably score similar amount of Gedrosia with you but ratio of East Eurasian varies the oracles.

Gacals from Northern Bulgaria? First time have heard. I know that they known as natives of Eastern Thrace and I actually agree so too but wonder what caused such identification on them.

Do your grandparents speak Gırcalı? I speak almost standard Thracian, my father has a called heavy Balkan Yörük, my mother has a Pomak accent.

Yeah, more or less we probably have similar gedrosia.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacallar


Çeşitli teoriler mevcuttur: Gacallar, Deliorman bölgesinin Osmanlı öncesi Türk halkı olduğuna dair iddialar vardır. Kuzey'den gelmişlerdir ve Çıtaklarla ve Gagavuzlarla ilgileri de düşünülür. Osmanlılarla tanışıp karışınca İslam'a geçmişlerdir.

No, they did not. They were speaking fluently Istanbul Turkish, only my paternal great grandfather was speaking broken Turkish. I have never met other great grandparents from both side. I was a kid, so I really have no idea about this.

[Chris596]

-


Nice maps :D Sometimes I wonder if I am the only Hungarian without any significant German / French / English or Western European ancestor (because so far, after seeing all the results of other Hungarians, also on YouTube, I think I am lol)

[Kaspias]

Yeah, more or less we probably have similar gedrosia.

https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacallar



No, they did not. They were speaking fluently Istanbul Turkish, only my paternal great grandfather was speaking broken Turkish. I have never met other great grandparents from both side. I was a kid, so I really have no idea about this.

It is fixed then, they are Muslim Gagauz.

[TheMaestro]

Nice maps :D Sometimes I wonder if I am the only Hungarian without any significant German / French / English or Western European ancestor (because so far, after seeing all the results of other Hungarians, also on YouTube, I think I am lol)

Huh, well probably it's true, my mother would probably score pretty much around 25-35 Percent of UK/GERMANY, who knows, semmi baj XD

[Jana]

Nice maps :D Sometimes I wonder if I am the only Hungarian without any significant German / French / English or Western European ancestor (because so far, after seeing all the results of other Hungarians, also on YouTube, I think I am lol)

Stears doesn't have any known western European ancestry either, and he has extensive family tree, especially on father's side.
His all ancestors were ethnic Hungarians except mother's grandmother who belonged to Croatian minority of Hungary.

But if you mean genetics than he does score north-western Euro/German/Germanic, lot more than you seem to do.

[17571imre]

i can already share this:

Paternal matches: https://imgur.com/a/DYsiIPW

Maternal maches: https://imgur.com/a/9KIFmnM

[Luso]

People can write the cities and areas of ancestry with 23andMe, that's how I did it. I checked the ancestry places of the closest 23andMe matches who mentioned their place of origin and used that information on the map.

Could I do it with FTDNA?

[Kaspias]

I can also share my FTDNA matches.

Paternal

https://i.ibb.co/Lrmwtqx/father.png

Maternal

https://i.ibb.co/WKhGtPY/mother1.png

[Chris596]

Stears doesn't have any known western European ancestry either, and he has extensive family tree, especially on father's side.
His all ancestors were ethnic Hungarians except mother's grandmother who belonged to Croatian minority of Hungary.

But if you mean genetics than he does score north-western Euro/German/Germanic, lot more than you seem to do.

Interesting. Yes, exactly, I've seen many-many Hungarian results on the internet, whether it be 23andme or Myheritage, it doesn't matter. Most of them always get at least 10-20% French/German and/or English/Irish/Scottish, sometimes even Iberian and I am like lol. Even other full Szekelys get some German/English on Myheritage.
Afterall, I think Myheritage was really right about my ancestry (most of it).

When I told my father about my results, he said that it's right because it's impossible for our family to have Western European ancestry, as far as he knows we really don't have ancestors from there, but I said I was expecting at least some German or something. Seems like he was really right about it.
The only 4-5% Scandinavian what I've got can also be some old admixture from Northern Europe (Proto-Scandinavian or something like this). So basically I'm Eastern European (Southeast, East) and some Turkic, just as Kaspias has told me.

And sorry Kaspias for loading your thread with this!!! :D

[17571imre]

i can already share this:

Paternal matches: https://imgur.com/a/DYsiIPW

Maternal maches: https://imgur.com/a/9KIFmnM

most of my matches are full ashkenazi. but i have no clue why because i score only 8% Jewish and i dont know of any Ashkenazi in my family.

[Ion Basescul]

These are mine, closest overall autosomal matches based on MyHeritage, 23andme and FTDNA.

Blue: Moldovans/Romanians
Yellow: Romanians
Green: Hungarians
Emerald: Ukrainians
Grey: Poles
Brown: Germans
Violet: Finnish

https://i.imgur.com/JFrv8LH.png

Zoomed in
https://i.imgur.com/E6iMbvz.png

Zoomed in on Moldova
https://i.imgur.com/GBzell3.png

[Chris596]

Inspired by Kaspias :) This is probably the best it can get for me. It's a new map based on my FTDNA matches.

I only used my closest matches, I share with all of them at least 50 cM of DNA or more (and it's still a lot)
Lots of these people shared their place of ancestry, in other cases I used the Forebears surname search engine: https://forebears.io/surnames (I marked the countries where these surnames appear the most/are present in a high density)

I marked the countries only, since it would be too many markers on the map and you wouldn't see anything. I list the countries separately and include how many matches I have from there (50 cM at least)

USA/UK/Germany (Orange) (not sure): 103
Russia (Yellow): 16
Poland/Lithuania (Green): 10
Romania (Light Blue): 9
Sweden/Norway/Denmark/Finland (Brown): 7
Hungary (Red): 6
Serbia/Kosovo (Grey): 5
Croatia (Dark Blue): 4
Albania/Bulgaria/Greece (Turquoise, not too many colors left, sorry): 4
Turkey (Purple): 3
Kazakhstan/Uzbekistan (Light Green): 2

169 people in total (at least 50 cM of shared DNA), based on my FTDNA matches

https://i.imgur.com/aMQW2um.png

What do you think of it? I think it's more meaningful than the other one.

[KrashNick]

Y-DNA matches from FTDNA

https://i.imgur.com/LJuq69P.png

[IrisSelene]

Wanna do this but it sounds complicated lol

Enviado desde mi CLT-L09 mediante Tapatalk

[Kaspias]

Bump.

[Crimea-Khan]

This my Grandparents birth location, when I get time I do matches

Red Father
Yellow Mother

100631

[Vojnik]

My known ancestry:

https://i.ibb.co/Z6G8zbQ/ancestry1.png (https://ibb.co/Y7PkBV5)

https://i.ibb.co/Y7PkBV5/ancestry1.png (https://ibb.co/Y7PkBV5)

Relatives map according to 23andme:

https://i.ibb.co/VWxwdGw/relatives.png (https://ibb.co/7JQkHDk)

https://i.ibb.co/7JQkHDk/relatives.png (https://ibb.co/7JQkHDk)

A crazy amount of relatives in the US. That's odd.

[Valentins]

How can i do this, can someone tell me? Thanks.

[InfamousAngel99]

I have a lot of matches, so I'm only going up to my 4th cousins and the matches within Europe. I'll indicate the other continents I have close matches in below the images.
Purple = my known places of origin
Light blue = 2nd cousins
Green = 3rd cousins
Yellow = 4th cousins
100651
100652
I also have close matches in North America, South America, and Australia.

[Far_away]

They are everywhere lol
https://i.ibb.co/X29b2y9/g.png
https://i.ibb.co/QXYRh2Z/ss.png

[Beowulf]

https://i.postimg.cc/8zmqzX5N/Screenshot-2023-06-15-14-23-12.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Lemminkäinen]

This is my STR25 map from FtDna. Being based on STRs rather than SNPs it doesn't show my closest matches, but merely the Finnish I1 group, including closest upstream matches for it in Sweden. What is notable is matches in Karelia. Finnish clade would extend deeper into Russia, but we have not received information except matches on the map received from Karelian refugees after the WWII. The area with matched belonged to Finland. It is notable also that the Finnish I1 is more numerous in Karelia that in the Eastern part of Finland. Because the common idea is that Eastern Finland was populated by Karelians, which in some extent is also true, my implication is that East Finns sre not solely descendants of Karelians, neither descendants of West Finns. They have to be offspring of Laplanders or gone throw a genetic bottle neck, which modified the yDna.

https://i.ibb.co/1mntnD5/Screenshot-20230615-160017.png