Are Poles just Slavicized?

[JohnJack]

A couple of studies from what I have seen show that Polish people show genetic continuity to the Polish Bronze Age, so does this indicate that Poles are Slavicized? Did a Slavic elite just take over the modern-day area of Poland during the Great Migration Period and Slavicize it through culture, linguistics, and religion?

Studies: http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/node/82059
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/06/genetic-continuity-across-millennia-in.html?m=1

[Jana]

No. Poles are very Slavic.

[Leto]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?325081-Are-West-Slavs-just-Slavicized-and-not-actually-Slavic

Stop spamming the forum with nonsense, bro.

[Leto]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?325081-Are-West-Slavs-just-Slavicized-and-not-actually-Slavic

Stop spamming the forum with nonsense, bro.

[TheOldNorth]

Poles are genetically more slavic then some russians, obviously western poles have some germanic and northeastern poles have some baltic, but south central poles are some of the purest slavs in existance

[J. Ketch]

How small does a genetic influence have to be for a population to be considered '-icised'?

Surely anything over 25%, accompanying language change is effectively a new people created.

[Slavic Italian]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?325081-Are-West-Slavs-just-Slavicized-and-not-actually-Slavic

Stop spamming the forum with nonsense, bro.

Your grammar and mannerisms are not that of a native Russian. I interact with two native Russian cousins regularly and there is much difference. You come across as an American in many ways. I bet you are a poser.
This is how one of them types. Broken English and such. I notice your grammar is better than most Americans.

Many thanks. I was very important to know that she is from Sarov

[Scandal]

Your grammar and mannerisms are not that of a native Russian. I interact with two native Russian cousins regularly and there is much difference. You come across as an American in many ways. I bet you are a poser.
This is how one of them types. Broken English and such. I notice your grammar is better than most Americans.

Many thanks. I was very important to know that she is from Sarov

He's really Belarusian/Russian, he has dna test result to prove it.

Btw you're probably to the first one to doubt his ethnicity.

[Scandal]

A couple of studies from what I have seen show that Polish people show genetic continuity to the Polish Bronze Age, so does this indicate that Poles are Slavicized? Did a Slavic elite just take over the modern-day area of Poland during the Great Migration Period and Slavicize it through culture, linguistics, and religion?

Studies: http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/node/82059
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/06/genetic-continuity-across-millennia-in.html?m=1

Poles are one of the purest Slavs by autosomal dna.


Target: Polish
Distance: 1.0294% / 0.01029432 | ADC: 0.25x

86.0 Slavic
9.6 Germanic
4.4 Baltic

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?316531-Balto-Slavic-scale

[Lucas]

Poles are genetically more slavic then some russians, obviously western poles have some germanic and northeastern poles have some baltic, but south central poles are some of the purest slavs in existance

Central yes, but southern has some submerged German admix, especially in Subcarpathia.

[Leto]

Your grammar and mannerisms are not that of a native Russian. I interact with two native Russian cousins regularly and there is much difference. You come across as an American in many ways. I bet you are a poser.
This is how one of them types. Broken English and such. I notice your grammar is better than most Americans.

Many thanks. I was very important to know that she is from Sarov
Once again - can you please stop quoting me? I don't want to interact with you. Thank you.

[Loki]

A couple of studies from what I have seen show that Polish people show genetic continuity to the Polish Bronze Age, so does this indicate that Poles are Slavicized? Did a Slavic elite just take over the modern-day area of Poland during the Great Migration Period and Slavicize it through culture, linguistics, and religion?

Studies: http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/node/82059
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/06/genetic-continuity-across-millennia-in.html?m=1

Very interesting.

[TheMaestro]

Eastern Poland is core of Slavic DNA, what do you think.

[TheOldNorth]

Central yes, but southern has some submerged German admix, especially in Subcarpathia.

southeastern?

[Loki]

southeastern?

Mosty, yes, because the other areas (west and north) used to be German territory before World War 2.

[Leto]

How small does a genetic influence have to be for a population to be considered '-icised'?

Surely anything over 25%, accompanying language change is effectively a new people created.
So the Jews are not the ones prior to 70 A.D. Genetically mixed, a different language, different food, music and clothing. Hell, even the Talmud and Kabbalah didn't exist back in the day.
Yet no one says they are just "Semiticized".

[JohnJack]

Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but if Poles descended from proto-Slavs near the Ukraine and Belarus border, why would a couple DNA studies show Polish genetic continuity to the Bronze Age populations in Poland?

[The Lawspeaker]

Heim ins Reich !


;) (Just making fun).

[vbnetkhio]

A couple of studies from what I have seen show that Polish people show genetic continuity to the Polish Bronze Age, so does this indicate that Poles are Slavicized? Did a Slavic elite just take over the modern-day area of Poland during the Great Migration Period and Slavicize it through culture, linguistics, and religion?

Studies: http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/node/82059
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/06/genetic-continuity-across-millennia-in.html?m=1

these are just announcements for studies which are yet to come out. And they seem poorly written and probably misinterpreted.

in the first article, genetic continuity of modern and bronze age inhabitants of Poland is mentioned in the title, but it isn't mentioned or further explained anywhere in the text.

in the second article ends with a weird conclusion:

"It seems that we are dealing with an interesting genetic continuation in the population living in Kujawy from the early Middle Ages to the 19th century. The roots of these populations probably reach the Neolithic, perhaps even the Mesolithic" - the scientist suggests.

so they just compared medieval (probably early Slavic) and 19th century Poles, and from this they concluded the Neolithic and Mesolithic population must have been the same? this makes no sense, we have countless other studies showing that there were massive population replacements in all of Europe in the Neolithic and Chalcolitic.

[The Lawspeaker]

Poland ?

You mean: EAST GERMANY ! :cool:

(the general idea of this thread is so stupid that we should mock it into the ground).

[Zeno]

Poland?

You mean O S T P R E U ẞ E N?!


https://youtu.be/rsaRsBkrfy0

[Tauromachos]

A couple of studies from what I have seen show that Polish people show genetic continuity to the Polish Bronze Age, so does this indicate that Poles are Slavicized? Did a Slavic elite just take over the modern-day area of Poland during the Great Migration Period and Slavicize it through culture, linguistics, and religion?


If they were Slavicized what would native Pre Slavic Poles then have been?

[Ülev]

but I am Slavicised and was almost Russicised ("Vassiliy") to the new nickname ---> Russophobe :)

[Mingle]

Sorry for my ignorance on this topic but if Poles descended from proto-Slavs near the Ukraine and Belarus border, why would a couple DNA studies show Polish genetic continuity to the Bronze Age populations in Poland?

To have continuity with BA populations, they would just need to be less than 100% Slavic and have at least a drop of native BA blood.

Going from "having a drop of native BA blood" to "Slavicized" is a big leap.

So just cause they're not 100% Slavic doesn't mean they're Slavicized. The vast majority of their DNA is still from Proto-Slavs.

[vbnetkhio]

i did a quick analysis of Polish Bronze age samples:

https://i.imgur.com/G5mU2pP.png

they are not extremely different from modern Poles, but the differences are obvious. most importantly, the North Atlantic and Baltic components switched places.
also, they don't really fit too well into any modern population:
https://i.imgur.com/Tg5YhqV.png

then, we have two Gothic samples which are similar to modern Germanic peoples, and finally, an early medieval sample which is similar to modern Poles:

https://i.imgur.com/Kwmjsds.png

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA

[TheOldNorth]

Mosty, yes, because the other areas (west and north) used to be German territory before World War 2.

yes but you must remember there was mas German deportations in that area, and Polish resettlement

[JohnJack]

i did a quick analysis of Polish Bronze age samples:

https://i.imgur.com/G5mU2pP.png

they are not extremely different from modern Poles, but the differences are obvious. most importantly, the North Atlantic and Baltic components switched places.
also, they don't really fit too well into any modern population:
https://i.imgur.com/Tg5YhqV.png

then, we have two Gothic samples which are similar to modern Germanic peoples, and finally, an early medieval sample which is similar to modern Poles:

https://i.imgur.com/Kwmjsds.png

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34258-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA

So Polish BA and IA must've been similar to the proto-Slavs, but Poles descend from proto-Slavs all in all? Thanks, I've really been kind of obsessed with this question and I have gotten various answers.

[Loki]

yes but you must remember there was mas German deportations in that area, and Polish resettlement

Sure, but the resettled people could have come from anywhere, hence it would be less homogeneic Polish than the SE.

[J. Ketch]

The pre-Slavic natives of East-Central Europe are quite mysterious really, at least to me. Very little is spoken or written of them.

[TheOldNorth]

Sure, but the resettled people could have come from anywhere, hence it would be less homogeneic Polish than the SE.

true, I never denied that fact, was just saying they likely weren't genetically that German, maybe part baltic or east slavic, or hungarian, but likely not german

[Peterski]

Upcoming study:

https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12864-020-06810-9

"The biological material came from archaeological sites distributed across Poland. In total we examined 344 ancient human teeth, including 161 Roman Iron Age and Medieval individuals from our previous studies, detailed description is available, and 183 Medieval individuals from Ląd [37], Obłaczkowo [10], Brzeg [2], Gołuń [6], Poznań–Śródka [12], Opole [41], Końskie [9], Płońsk [20], Ostrów Lednicki [20], Dziekanowice [21], and Warszawa [5] (data to be published)."


The pre-Slavic natives of East-Central Europe are quite mysterious really, at least to me. Very little is spoken or written of them.

This is Late Bronze Age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc_KLJrD054

[vbnetkhio]

Sure, but the resettled people could have come from anywhere, hence it would be less homogeneic Polish than the SE.

no, the resettlers were all Polish
here are some statistics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories#Origin_of_the_post-war_population_according_to_1950_census

[vbnetkhio]

So Polish BA and IA must've been similar to the proto-Slavs, but Poles descend from proto-Slavs all in all? Thanks, I've really been kind of obsessed with this question and I have gotten various answers.

There isn't a short answer to this. There wasn't an unified "Polish BA/IA people" It was a collection of many diferrent tribes in diferrent parts of Poland and diferrent sub-periods of the Bronze and Iron ages. At least one of these tribes, the Vistula Veneti, are in some way closely related to Slavs. But in the end, it seems that all of these tribes were replaced by the East Germanic peoples, and then in turn the Slavs replaced these Germanics.

i recommend these 2 articles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze-_and_Iron-Age_Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland_in_antiquity

[Benyzero]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=27578&dateline=1592583542

[Benyzero]

99871

https://i.imgur.com/Y4K1g1u.jpg

[Lucas]

Cumansky permabanned account return, someone can reports?:)

[TheMaestro]

Slavic is ethnolinguistic and cultural. DNA is not ethnolinguistic or cultural. Simple concept

Nope Slavic can be genetical, cultural and linguistic, get your facts done, simple concept. Core of Slavic DNA is in Poland/Belarus borders.

[TheMaestro]

Your cum is my lunch and part of my diet. No further discussion.

Fixed

[andre]

Avars

Are you alive? Cumansky you are a f*****g scum

[Aldaris]

Nope Slavic can be genetical, cultural and linguistic, get your facts done, simple concept. Core of Slavic DNA is in Poland/Belarus borders.

Vole, ten curacek je do zitrka za zenitem. Mu ani neodpovidej, picusovi jakysimu.

Placing a bet about who's gonna be the judge? ;-)

[TheMaestro]

Are you alive? Cumansky you are a f*****g scum

LOL, actually it's very possible it's Cumansky XD

[andre]

Why would I not be alive? Lol Khazar Greek Hungarian pussy

Wtf, i'm 50% Swahili and 50% Khoisan from Danube river...stupid ass.

[TheMaestro]

You are some LGBT probably

pula retardata

[Leto]

I've reported the sock.

[Lucas]

I've reported the sock.

:)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1e/16/20/1e1620608799cbfcf08db0bf9d580a35.png

[JohnJack]

I guess my question now would be why do the studies suggest strong and direct continuity? Why would it show continuity of the ancestors invaded the area in the early Medieval Ages?

Also, is there some genetic evidence for them descending from invading Slavs?

I’ve been kinda obsessed with this question because my great grandfather was a Polish immigrant and I want to know where Poles come from. However, I’ve gotten a lot of mixed answers and theories so it’s confused me.

[Scandal]

Also, is there some genetic evidence for them descending from invading Slavs?


Yes there is, I already posted it in the thread. They mostly descend from Slavs in fact. There's nothing slavicized about Poles, they're the Slavs themselves.

[Scandal]

The only slavic speaking nations that could be called slavicized are Bulgaria, Macedonia, Montenegro and Czechia, but even that would be debatable. Poland? Definitely not, modern polish samples can be modelled as over 80% early slavic(we do have early slavic samples to compare).

[vbnetkhio]

I guess my question now would be why do the studies suggest strong and direct continuity? Why would it show continuity of the ancestors invaded the area in the early Medieval Ages?


because the arrival of the Slavs was the last major population replacement in (central and eastern) Poland. there was nothing that would break this continuity since then.


Also, is there some genetic evidence for them descending from invading Slavs?

as you can see on that last PCA i posted, Poles are the closest to Belarusians and Ukrainians, with only a slight pull towards Germanic peoples.
also, you can see the Kow samples from the late iron age were diferrent from modern Poles, no modern Pole is like them any more, And the Niemcza sample (an invading Slav) was quite close to modern Poles, only a bit more east Slavic like.



I’ve been kinda obsessed with this question because my great grandfather was a Polish immigrant and I want to know where Poles come from. However, I’ve gotten a lot of mixed answers and theories so it’s confused me.

Slavic history is a sensitive topic, and people like to make up all kinds of theories about this. it's best to look at the available evidence and bring your own conclusion.

[JohnJack]

because the arrival of the Slavs was the last major population replacement in (central and eastern) Poland. there was nothing that would break this continuity since then.



as you can see on that last PCA i posted, Poles are the closest to Belarusians and Ukrainians, with only a slight pull towards Germanic peoples.
also, you can see the Kow samples from the late iron age were diferrent from modern Poles, no modern Pole is like them any more, And the Niemcza sample (an invading Slav) was quite close to modern Poles, only a bit more east Slavic like.



Slavic history is a sensitive topic, and people like to make up all kinds of theories about this. it's best to look at the available evidence and bring your own conclusion.

I guess I have a hard time understanding but if they have continuity to the Bronze Age in a the modern-day area of Poland why would they descend from invaders? Wouldn't it show ancestry to the Ukraine/Belarus border not a central part of Poland?

[Jana]

I guess I have a hard time understanding but if they have continuity to the Bronze Age in a the modern-day area of Poland why would they descend from invaders? Wouldn't it show ancestry to the Ukraine/Belarus border not a central part of Poland?

They don't have continuity and it was already explained to you. Stop asking stupid questions because you are extremely annoying.

[JohnJack]

They don't have continuity and it was already explained to you. Stop asking stupid questions because you are extremely annoying.

No, no it wasn't.

Also, thank you for the compliment!

[JohnJack]

because the arrival of the Slavs was the last major population replacement in (central and eastern) Poland. there was nothing that would break this continuity since then.



as you can see on that last PCA i posted, Poles are the closest to Belarusians and Ukrainians, with only a slight pull towards Germanic peoples.
also, you can see the Kow samples from the late iron age were diferrent from modern Poles, no modern Pole is like them any more, And the Niemcza sample (an invading Slav) was quite close to modern Poles, only a bit more east Slavic like.



Slavic history is a sensitive topic, and people like to make up all kinds of theories about this. it's best to look at the available evidence and bring your own conclusion.

So the Pre-Proto-Slavs, who lived around the Ukraine/Belarus border area were genetically very similar to the BA and IA population in Poland, so the Slavs expanded out of the area in the early Medieval Ages and replaced the previous population there, but since they are so genetically similar to the previous population that modern-day Poles show strong continuity to the BA and IA populations, even though Poles descend from the invading Slavs.

Is this correct or wrong?

[Slavic Italian]

So the Pre-Proto-Slavs, who lived around the Ukraine/Belarus border area were genetically very similar to the BA and IA population in Poland, so the Slavs expanded out of the area in the early Medieval Ages and replaced the previous population there, but since they are so genetically similar to the previous population that modern-day Poles show strong continuity to the BA and IA populations, even though Poles descend from the invading Slavs.

Is this correct or wrong?

Damn you are out there.

[StonyArabia]

They are pure Slavs. There is almost a significant genetic difference between them and the Germans interestingly.Germans did absorb some Baltic and Slavic groups like the original Prussians and the Swabians. Germans are closer to the English than Poles which is interesting since the English are geographical more distant.

[J. Ketch]

So the Pre-Proto-Slavs, who lived around the Ukraine/Belarus border area were genetically very similar to the BA and IA population in Poland, so the Slavs expanded out of the area in the early Medieval Ages and replaced the previous population there, but since they are so genetically similar to the previous population that modern-day Poles show strong continuity to the BA and IA populations, even though Poles descend from the invading Slavs.

Is this correct or wrong?
Isn't that obvious (that's the genetic continuity the paper is referring to)?

It's no different to the recent papers saying the modern British have overwhelming genetic continuity with the British Bronze Age, despite there being obvious large-scale population turnover in England since then.

Alternatively any consistent sign of ancestry from a previous population is technically genetic continuity, even 5%.