(((Davidski)))

[Deusex99]

Imagine trusting this charlatan. It took me 10 minutes to find out that he is not using academic samples. I went on his (((blog))) and asked him about that. He simply refused to respond and cancelled my post. The absolute state of (((Eurogenes))).

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/9828/202005/10116887_6d3192d0626e6f256c2241bd61293868.jpg?Expi res=1592928239&Signature=fIBFuph0fstPZQXhKbZIDjE9JDczyolw~irrgvb2 Xp0PmGwJYXYq0g2AtpxW7t7BNiJC1fgNVtGdrGYMlpgCIMwA2d GMvZFt52Euw56NInW4XPzEKIqg0YrRebwGJ4DMXmxKjB5ccZ6N Zd4WdyeViHnikDYCG~f4-CGrye2TjiD~-iL9NBVgnm274qSgsxcx7Pc4SmM5XeemgFKZ6YqClYq804MQNlk hZ6Y8iGKCmORfLNYgKafePBw8ENbFSH3cZCmvLuBsBQrij8gVm dkmo~vPT7vD92r-PQytoBi5tPJUkQMdNzGW3wmE8e9bSj69pHtMpzxWZmAf2poGTi QTNQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

[Deusex99]

You can check the ID here.

Compare the fam file from the paper Raveane et al 2019 and the G25 Italian text file.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gyNsSeh4tngbOVTUFK7JAv5TC_5AMhJ3/view

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3xpko28yiq50l4/Raveane_Aneli_Montinaro_SciAdv.zip?dl=0&file_subpath=%2FIta_Alb_Omni25ChipData

I can't post this on Anthrogenica because I'm banned for an unrelated reason.

[gixajo]

You can check the ID here.

Compare the fam file from the paper Raveane et al 2019 and the G25 Italian text file.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gyNsSeh4tngbOVTUFK7JAv5TC_5AMhJ3/view

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3xpko28yiq50l4/Raveane_Aneli_Montinaro_SciAdv.zip?dl=0&file_subpath=%2FIta_Alb_Omni25ChipData

I can't post this on Anthrogenica because I'm banned for an unrelated reason.

If he has good judgment in choosing representative samples, what is the problem that not all samples he uses come from academic studies?

Take all this for what it is, a simplified tool for amateurs.

[Deusex99]

If he has good judgment in choosing representative samples, what is the problem that not all samples he uses come from academic studies?

Take all this for what it is, a simplified tool for amateurs.

Nice mental gymnastic there.

Science is not a matter of "interpretation" or "preference". Science is a matter of facts.

There is a clear manipulation of genetic data going on there and the fact that (((Polako))) behaves like a Jew shows how much he is really "reliable".

[JamesBond007]

Nice mental gymnastic there.

Science is not a matter of "interpretation" or "preference". Science is a matter of facts.

There is a clear manipulation of genetic data going on there and the fact that (((Polako))) behaves like a Jew shows how much he is really "reliable".

Since when does academia have a monopoly on science ? Your whole argument against Davidski is the opposite of science since it conforms to the logical fallacy of the argumentum ad verecundiam. He may in fact be manipulating data in a non-scientific fashion but you have not proven it logically. One might even make the argument that academic sources are more likely to be legit but that is not what you are saying here.

[Kamal900]

So..where is the evidence that he's Jewish btw? Love the troll and butthurt thread about your distaste for G25. Yes, it's not a perfect sampling for certain groups and so on, but the G25 in itself is a pretty good tool regardless on the sampling coordinates.

[gixajo]

Nice mental gymnastic there.

Science is not a matter of "interpretation" or "preference". Science is a matter of facts.

There is a clear manipulation of genetic data going on there and the fact that (((Polako))) behaves like a Jew shows how much he is really "reliable".

Alors, mets vos propres conseils en pratique ,
behaves like a Jew shows how much he is really "reliable" ou
Imagine trusting this charlatan. It took me 10 minutes to find out that he is not using academic samples. I went on his (((blog))) and asked him about that. He simply refused to respond and cancelled my post. The absolute state of (((Eurogenes))).
,ceux ne sont pas non plus des arguments scientifiques, ni les disqualifications subjectives dans votre premier post. Cela semble plus à quelque chose de personnel qu'une allégation en défense de la science.

Si vous n'aimez pas les résultats que ces outils d'estimation vous ont donnés, vous feriez mieux de jardiner pendant votre temps libre.

Ici nous connaissons tous la confiance que ces choses méritent, donc je ne comprends pas comment vous prenez quelque chose que je vous ai déjà dit si sérieusement.Dans nos mains ce n'est qu'un outil pour amateurs. Et si vous n'aimez pas certains samples, supprimez-les du datasheet.

[waam]

(((:jewish:)))

[FinalFlash]

So..where is the evidence that he's Jewish btw? Love the troll and butthurt thread about your distaste for G25. Yes, it's not a perfect sampling for certain groups and so on, but the G25 in itself is a pretty good tool regardless on the sampling coordinates.

The tool itself is wonderful. Probably the best amateur tool available for us to use thus far but some of the default population references can be a little off.

[Slavic Italian]

Imagine trusting this charlatan. It took me 10 minutes to find out that he is not using academic samples. I went on his (((blog))) and asked him about that. He simply refused to respond and cancelled my post. The absolute state of (((Eurogenes))).

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/9828/202005/10116887_6d3192d0626e6f256c2241bd61293868.jpg?Expi res=1592928239&Signature=fIBFuph0fstPZQXhKbZIDjE9JDczyolw~irrgvb2 Xp0PmGwJYXYq0g2AtpxW7t7BNiJC1fgNVtGdrGYMlpgCIMwA2d GMvZFt52Euw56NInW4XPzEKIqg0YrRebwGJ4DMXmxKjB5ccZ6N Zd4WdyeViHnikDYCG~f4-CGrye2TjiD~-iL9NBVgnm274qSgsxcx7Pc4SmM5XeemgFKZ6YqClYq804MQNlk hZ6Y8iGKCmORfLNYgKafePBw8ENbFSH3cZCmvLuBsBQrij8gVm dkmo~vPT7vD92r-PQytoBi5tPJUkQMdNzGW3wmE8e9bSj69pHtMpzxWZmAf2poGTi QTNQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3bli2t40pU&list=RDLMbuUUk_3f4&index=2

[Kamal900]

The tool itself is wonderful. Probably the best amateur tool available for us to use thus far but some of the default population references can be a little off.

Agreed.

[Deusex99]

So..where is the evidence that he's Jewish btw? Love the troll and butthurt thread about your distaste for G25. Yes, it's not a perfect sampling for certain groups and so on, but the G25 in itself is a pretty good tool regardless on the sampling coordinates.

He is not one of (((them))), but he is a honorary one.

[Kamal900]

He is not one of (((them))), but he is a honorary one.

Pfft, okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy. Also, place me in between the brackets as well since I'm genetically a Jew but not ethnically one.:wink

[Pine]

I presume OP is part Italian and isn't happy how south shifted those samples are. If not, OP, what big agenda do you think you uncovered?

[FinalFlash]

Pfft, okay. Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy. Also, place me in between the brackets as well since I'm genetically a Jew but not ethnically one.:wink

Genetically, you're more Jewish than any Jew today can claim to be.

[Pine]

Genetically, you're more Jewish than any Jew today can claim to be.

This is false.

[FinalFlash]

This is false.

They were Palestinian-like 2000 years ago, no? No modern-day Jewish population clusters with Palestinians be it Georgian, Ashkenaz, Yemeni, or Med Jew. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Deusex99]

I presume OP is part Italian and isn't happy how south shifted those samples are. If not, OP, what big agenda do you think you uncovered?

The actualy academic samples from the study are not southern shifted at all and that makes this blatant genetic manipulation even more disturbing: clearly I am not the one with an agenda here.

[Gallop]

Whatever happens sooner or later the truth comes to light. We are the first in the entire history of humanity to do all of this, whether at a professional or amateur level, and the beginnings are always hard, probably 10 years from now if we are still alive and read all these posts, which by then will be old, exclaim: poor! They were halfway there. Probably in a few decades there will be no room for agendas because science will be showing how things were with more certainty than today, a matter of time.

[Pine]

They were Palestinian-like 2000 years ago, no? No modern-day Jewish population clusters with Palestinians be it Georgian, Ashkenaz, Yemeni, or Med Jew. Correct me if I'm wrong.

No, the population 2000 years ago wasn't like modern Palestinian muslims. Yes, some Jews do plot in the Levant: some Syrian, Iraqi, and Egyptian Jews. I also don't care. You could take a Yemeni Arab and mix him with the right northern source and he'll plot in the Levant. This "cluster" nonsense doesn't sufficiently answer what the ancestral composition is of either modern Jews or modern Palestinians. I do like that you went from population oracles to "clusters". Upgrade from 1D to 2D. Maybe once you leave flatland, you'll also catch on to your own Semitic ancestry, but - who nose.

[Pine]

The actualy academic samples from the study are not southern shifted at all and that makes this blatant genetic manipulation even more disturbing: clearly I am not the one with an agenda here.

Of course, I'm right as usual. And why is he doing this great evil?

[Slavic Italian]

The actualy academic samples from the study are not southern shifted at all and that makes this blatant genetic manipulation even more disturbing: clearly I am not the one with an agenda here.

I am pleased with the IBD analysis he did on me a year ago, Here are some of my results.

AAB_Anglo_Saxon_NO3423 19.48398
AAB_Sintashta_RISE395 16.164902
English_Kent_HG00158 14.367849
Polish_Polish16H 13.563032
English_Kent_HG00136 12.760677
Sicilian_East_EastSicilian3H 11.8423805
German_IL550_0192 11.722059
German_IL550_0204 11.670863
English_Cornwall_HG00265 11.529468
German_GS000016892 11.427855
AAB_Ireland_EBA_Rathlin1_RM127 11.362549
Utah_USA_NA12045 11.15444104
Norwegian_NOR119 11.037497
Ingrian_GS000016897 10.868328
Croatian_GS000015871 10.8453271
English_Kent_HG00159 10.731073
Finnish_GS000016895 10.5544599
AAB_Nordic_LN_RISE98 10.396912
Ukrainian_West_UkrLv228 10.393318
Orcadian_HG00107 10.355472
Ukrainian_North_Ukraine141 10.3141515
Serbian_Bosnia_Serbian_B-H11_GSM1424666 10.2239582
AAB_Unetice_RISE150 10.212964
Ukrainian_East_UkrBel614 10.036635
Utah_German_NA12057 9.913035
Belarusian_belorus7 9.815257
Vepsa_GS000016971 9.566861
Latvian_GS000035027 9.539401
Polish_Polish13H 9.479041
Bulgarian_Bulgarian15H 9.388864
German_IL550_0391 9.289345
French_HGDP00519 9.277828
German_IL550_0133 9.0737346
Finnish_GS000018756 9.02088
Russian_North_HGDP00880 8.931932
Montenegrin_Montenegro4_GSM1424637 8.880315
German_GS000016893 8.842881
Saami_GS000035024 8.841275
Ukrainian_East_GS000035176 8.735819
Utah_Scandinavian_NA11829 8.668876
Ukrainian_East_GS000035121 8.6328089
Slovenian_Slovenian321 8.4814716
Finnish_GS000016894 8.4297409
Slovakian_Slovakia118 8.41347
Cossack_Kuban_GS000016186 8.407539
Russian_North_HGDP00888 8.385822
Russian_North_HGDP00886 8.24023
Utah_USA_NA12341 8.18311
English_Cornwall_HG00261 8.142136
German_IL550_0367 8.111112
English_Cornwall_HG00262 8.04419
Karelian_GS000016970 8.025878
Spanish_Cataluna_HG01536 7.919741
Orcadian_HGDP00802 7.902739
French_HGDP00534 7.7881298
Estonian_ee59 7.769276
Russian_North_HGDP00885 7.767556
English_Cornwall_HG00251 7.761856
Orcadian_HG00122 7.732638
Croatian_GSM1841120 7.7085598
Serbian_Serbian_Serbia6_GSM1424680 7.69554
Russian_North_HGDP00898 7.687647
Mordovian_GS000013698 7.684275
Croatian_GSM1841121 7.661545
German_IL550_0433 7.629471
Russian_North_HGDP00899 7.589165
German_IL550_0445 7.582084
English_Kent_HG00129 7.492525
English_Cornwall_HG00250 7.483821
English_Cornwall_HG00245 7.436681
Hungarian_hungary8 7.383453
Irish_IRL006 7.377678
Montenegrin_Montenegro5_GSM1424638 7.363673
AAB_Mezhovskaya_RISE523 7.3609616
Bosnian_Bosnian_14_GSM1424655 7.3565848
Utah_USA_NA12383 7.256356
Slovenian_Slovenian299 7.224247
Ukrainian_West_UkrLv226 7.213755
Belarusian_GS000016104 7.199316
English_Kent_HG00126 7.161614
Norwegian_NOR111 7.151616
Russian_Northwest_evo_2 7.139177
Mozabite_HGDP01275 7.108555
Russian_North_GS000013756 7.08604982
Ukrainian_North_Ukraine133 7.055681

[FinalFlash]

No, the population 2000 years ago wasn't like modern Palestinian muslims. Yes, some Jews do plot in the Levant: some Syrian, Iraqi, and Egyptian Jews. I also don't care. You could take a Yemeni Arab and mix him with the right northern source and he'll plot in the Levant. This "cluster" nonsense doesn't sufficiently answer what the ancestral composition is of either modern Jews or modern Palestinians. I do like that you went from population oracles to "clusters". Upgrade from 1D to 2D. Maybe once you leave flatland, you'll also catch on to your own Semitic ancestry, but - who nose.

Not to modern Pali muslims, but Christians who've avoided absorbing the non-Levantine admix. Also, you're talking about superficially taking a certain Jew and mixing them with another source. We aren't playing create-a-Jew here. I'm talking about the general population clusters of the main Jewish groups that CURRENTLY exist and they are all very un-Levantine/Palestinian/whathaveyou-like. 1D, 2D, 3D, 64D however many D's you'd wish highlights what I've seen so far quite well. I'm aware they have Levantine origins, but they've clearly diverged from the Levant no matter which way you spin this. I've no Semitic ancestry but you have A LOT of non-Semitic ancestry and it upsets you, doesn't it? I guess you would definitely nose. :)

[Pine]

You're talking about superficially taking a certain Jew and mixing them with another source. We aren't playing create-a-Jew here. I'm talking about the general population clusters of the main Jewish groups and they are all very un-Levantine/Palestinian/whathaveyou-like. 1D, 2D, 3D, 64D however many D's you'd wish highlights what I've seen so far quite well. I'm aware they have Levantine origins, but they've clearly diverged from the Levant no matter which way you spin this. I've no Semitic ancestry but you have A LOT of non-Semitic ancestry and it upsets you, doesn't it? I guess you would definitely nose. :)

You do have Semitic admixture, especially if your ancestry is from Eastern Turkey. The rest you failed to read or pretended to not read. Both of your premises turned out to be false. There is you and Smeagol who keep trolling me that I'm upset about being admixed. Do you think I imagine myself wandering through the desert and eating hummus? In reality, I'm more "Aryan" than you are, and couldn't care either way. Smeagol is upset about being part Jewish and given recent data, you may be too.

[Zoro]

Nice mental gymnastic there.

Science is not a matter of "interpretation" or "preference". Science is a matter of facts.

There is a clear manipulation of genetic data going on there and the fact that (((Polako))) behaves like a Jew shows how much he is really "reliable".


You're barking up the wrong tree. There's no scientists here with the ability to fully dig into his methods and critique them. Scientists are not his main audience anyways. It really doesn't matter if his G25 methodology doesn't make the standard for publication. All the people here want is something they can easily use which the G25 does and that they get their own ethnicity in first place. That's how the masses judge if something is good They don't understand that admixture percentages and distances are 2 separate things and that distances can be good even if admixture percentages are off.

Also the formal tools used in the scientific community are not user friendly and no one here but a handful knows how to use them.

[FinalFlash]

You do have Semitic admixture, especially if your ancestry is from Eastern Turkey. The rest you failed to read or pretended to not read. Both of your premises turned out to be false. There is you and Smeagol who keep trolling me that I'm upset about being admixed. Do you think I imagine myself wandering through the desert and eating hummus? In reality, I'm more "Aryan" than you are, and couldn't care either way. Smeagol is upset about being part Jewish and given recent data, you may be too.

I don't. And I'm not from Eastern Turkey but even if I was, how would that imply having Semitic ancestry? Smeagol has confirmed Ashkenaz ancestry so he may have a tiny bit of actual Jew DNA. I have no such ancestry so I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

Dude, we're not trolling you. We simply point out the fact that given the genetic makeup of modern Jews, they can't be Levantine. The Ashkenaz and Spharidic and the Mesopotamian Jews are NOT levantine which implies that they have absorbed a very large amounts of non-semitic ancestry from various sources. Yet here you claim the exact opposite where non-Semitic groups have Semitic ancestry just so you can enhance your own "semiticness".

As for your Aryaness, I don't doubt that. Clearly you have more steppe related ancestry than I do which only further strenghtens my argument about Jews not being an ethnicity in a genetic sense.

[FinalFlash]

double post.

[Mingle]

You're barking up the wrong tree. There's no scientists here with the ability to fully dig into his methods and critique them. Scientists are not his main audience anyways. It really doesn't matter if his G25 methodology doesn't make the standard for publication. All the people here want is something they can easily use which the G25 does and that they get their own ethnicity in first place. That's how the masses judge if something is good They don't understand that admixture percentages and distances are 2 separate things and that distances can be good even if admixture percentages are off.

Also the formal tools used in the scientific community are not user friendly and no one here but a handful knows how to use them.

Where did you see him saying that G25 is bad?

All he said was that the averages are bad (to put it mildly). Some of Davidski's averages are indeed bad and it's a valid criticism. I'm not really sure though if the averages he mentioned in this post are bad though as I haven't looked at them but they may be given how some of the existing averages are pretty bad.

Anyways, the criticism is towards Davidski's averages not to the G25 tool.

[Mingle]

double

[Leto]

Dude, we're not trolling you. We simply point out the fact that given the genetic makeup of modern Jews, they can't be Levantine. The Ashkenaz and Spharidic and the Mesopotamian Jews are NOT levantine which implies that they have absorbed a very large amounts of non-semitic ancestry from various sources.
Babylonian Jews are totally Middle Eastern. Iraq is also a Semitic place, the Assyrians are Aramaic speakers.

[FinalFlash]

Babylonian Jews are totally Middle Eastern. Iraq is also a Semitic place, the Assyrians are Aramaic speakers.

Genetically, they aren't Levantine and have clearly absorbed non-Semitic admixture.

[gixajo]

The actualy academic samples from the study are not southern shifted at all and that makes this blatant genetic manipulation even more disturbing: clearly I am not the one with an agenda here.

I imagined what would the problem be. You want more Northern shifted samples.

Mais tu es français ou pas? pourquoi tu ne me reponds pas en français?:)

[gixajo]

Where did you see him saying that G25 is bad?

All he said was that the averages are bad (to put it mildly). Some of Davidski's averages are indeed bad and it's a valid criticism. I'm not really sure though if the averages he mentioned in this post are bad though as I haven't looked at them but they may be given how some of the existing averages are pretty bad.

Anyways, the criticism is towards Davidski's averages not to the G25 tool.

And some academic samples too, even in Gedmatch.

[Mingle]

And some academic samples too, even in Gedmatch.Many GEDmatch averages were bad or subpar. The fact he managed to top that on G25 says a lot. For some of his G25 averages, the number of outliers were similar to the number of normal samples. He claims he just uploads the samples with good data. So outliers being so overrepresented is implied to be some sort of coincidence based on that. Whatever the case is, he doesn't upload all the academic samples and sometimes this results in really bad averages.

[Mingle]

Imagine trusting this charlatan. It took me 10 minutes to find out that he is not using academic samples. I went on his (((blog))) and asked him about that. He simply refused to respond and cancelled my post. The absolute state of (((Eurogenes))).

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/9828/202005/10116887_6d3192d0626e6f256c2241bd61293868.jpg?Expi res=1592928239&Signature=fIBFuph0fstPZQXhKbZIDjE9JDczyolw~irrgvb2 Xp0PmGwJYXYq0g2AtpxW7t7BNiJC1fgNVtGdrGYMlpgCIMwA2d GMvZFt52Euw56NInW4XPzEKIqg0YrRebwGJ4DMXmxKjB5ccZ6N Zd4WdyeViHnikDYCG~f4-CGrye2TjiD~-iL9NBVgnm274qSgsxcx7Pc4SmM5XeemgFKZ6YqClYq804MQNlk hZ6Y8iGKCmORfLNYgKafePBw8ENbFSH3cZCmvLuBsBQrij8gVm dkmo~vPT7vD92r-PQytoBi5tPJUkQMdNzGW3wmE8e9bSj69pHtMpzxWZmAf2poGTi QTNQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

When I asked him to upload some samples a few times, he said he couldn't for "technical reasons" (i.e. they have bad raw data).

[gixajo]

When I asked him to upload some samples a few times, he said he couldn't for "technical reasons" (i.e. they have bad raw data).

I hope we have new samples from July 1.

[Deusex99]

I imagined what would the problem be. You want more Northern shifted samples.

Yeees, that's my problem, not that there is a blatant genetic manipulation and the author refuse to address the issue. Typical behaviour of a certain (((tribe))).


Mais tu es français ou pas? pourquoi tu ne me reponds pas en français?:)

Ca s’agit d’un forum de langue anglaise.

[vbnetkhio]

He claims he just uploads the samples with good data.

did he ever actually say this? that's just what I initially assumed. but actually, now i see he adds some lower quality samples too.

[J. Ketch]

Is something wrong with the French samples?

[Mingle]

did he ever actually say this? that's just what I initially assumed. but actually, now i see he adds some lower quality samples too.

When I asked him to upload some samples, he told me he couldn't for "technical reasons" and to use proxies instead. I assume this means the sample quality is low. When I asked him to upload another set of samples, he uploaded it. He also didn't upload the IVC sample which was said to be low quality. IIRC, he told Decius directly that he doesn't upload samples with low quality.

[Zoro]

did he ever actually say this? that's just what I initially assumed. but actually, now i see he adds some lower quality samples too.

I’ve seen that too. His quality control standards are kind of low.He also doesn’t understand the concept of PCA bias due to unequal sample sizes. Now that you know how to run qpAdm why don’t you check some of the G25 models. I’m pretty sure you’ll find some incorrect to various degrees and some will likely produce failing p-values because a low distance doesn’t necessarily mean the model is a pass. You’re probably the only one that can check the models because for the rest here they believe G25 admixture percentages are good as long as distance is low and they get their ethnic group as closest distance


Edit: I do like one thing he does though he uses qpAdm models in most of his blog posts and not G25

[CommonSense]

The Serbian academic study had like 15 samples, but the fool only opted for five of them he percieved to be of high SNP quality. The trouble is the average of those five is unrepresentative of the whole study and when Mingle and vbnetkhio told him about it he still didn't want to make any changes to the average.

[Lucas]

The Serbian academic study had like 15 samples, but the fool only opted for five of them he percieved to be of high SNP quality. The trouble is the average of those five is unrepresentative of the whole study and when Mingle and vbnetkhio told him about it he still didn't want to make any changes to the average.

If he really said that about MODERN Serbian academic samples??? If yes it is bullshit. All those samples have equally the same quality. So only reason for that he removed outliers but outliers which constitute majority of samples?

[FinalFlash]

The Serbian academic study had like 15 samples, but the fool only opted for five of them he percieved to be of high SNP quality. The trouble is the average of those five is unrepresentative of the whole study and when Mingle and vbnetkhio told him about it he still didn't want to make any changes to the average.

Same thing with the Armenian samples as well as some other populations which had either ridiculous outliers or people who didn't even look like they belonged to that ethnic group.

[FinalFlash]

If he really said that about MODERN Serbian academic samples??? If yes it is bullshit. All those samples have equally the same quality. So only reason for that he removed outliers but outliers which constitute majority of samples?

Wouldn't surprise me if he was trying to push his own agenda.

[vbnetkhio]

five of them he percieved to be of high SNP quality..

again, did he ever say this? as far as i can see, he picked the 5 samples which are on top alphabetically by their official name/id from the study (Serbian1, Serbian2, ... Serbian5) he did the same for Bosnians, Macedonians, and Montenegrins.
that's even worse.


Mingle and vbnetkhio told him about it he still didn't want to make any changes to the average.

i didn't tell him. i didn't buy G25 yet, and it would be weird if i just contacted him out of the blue demanding him to change his samples, lol.

[Pine]

Genetically, they aren't Levantine and have clearly absorbed non-Semitic admixture.

I don't have a problem with your conclusions. Others will argue things that are more false, but argue them better. You're arguing all this because of your "Fuck Israel" crusade. In that case, in your cluster world, where do all these Jewish groups belong? Which group is your Levantine reference? Are Armenians a tightly packed cluster?

[Pine]

5 pages and yet no one can provide any plausible incentive

[vbnetkhio]

I’ve seen that too. His quality control standards are kind of low.He also doesn’t understand the concept of PCA bias due to unequal sample sizes.
tell me about it. i tried to make an Admixture calculator and a Global25 style PCA, but i gave up because it's very sensitive to SNP and Sample choice. it's impossible to get a neutral, unbiased calculation from these tools.



Now that you know how to run qpAdm why don’t you check some of the G25 models. I’m pretty sure you’ll find some incorrect to various degrees and some will likely produce failing p-values because a low distance doesn’t necessarily mean the model is a pass. You’re probably the only one that can check the models because for the rest here they believe G25 admixture percentages are good as long as distance is low and they get their ethnic group as closest distance

i did such an experiment, but other way around. i tried the Serbs as Russia_MA+Illyrian model in k13 and g25.

this is what it was like in qpAdm:

Serbs
Russia_MA 61.1%
Croatia_EIA 38.9%
tail prob 0.995

in k13 the distance is horrible:
Target: Serb

Distance: 7.1780% / 7.17799415
50.0 Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_
50.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp

in g25 the distance is ok, but it's even smaller with samples wich don't actually share much genetic drift with Serbs, like BGR_IA. so going by g25 only, i would've never guessed that Serbs have any connection with the HRV_IA population.


Target: Serbian
Distance: 2.3707% / 0.02370682
55.6 HRV_IA
44.4 RUS_Sunghir_MA


and in both calculators the ratio is wrong.

[CommonSense]

again, did he ever say this? as far as i can see, he picked the 5 samples which are on top alphabetically by their official name/id from the study (Serbian1, Serbian2, ... Serbian5) he did the same for Bosnians, Macedonians, and Montenegrins.
that's even worse.



i didn't tell him. i didn't buy G25 yet, and it would be weird if i just contacted him out of the blue demanding him to change his samples, lol.

Right, it was Mingle who told us he had contacted Davidski and that the man didn't want to upload any more samples 'for technical reasons'. That would imply he wanted to say the other ones aren't of decent enough quality. If he really did select them at random, it makes his excuse even more invalid and insulting.

[FinalFlash]

I don't have a problem with your conclusions. Others will argue things that are more false, but argue them better. You're arguing all this because of your "Fuck Israel" crusade. In that case, in your cluster world, where do all these Jewish groups belong? Which group is your Levantine reference? Are Armenians a tightly packed cluster?

You were right about the Egyptian Jews btw. They are legit Levantines and likely the best representatives of the original Jews. However, I won't give you the Iraqi and Syrian Jews because the former has excess Meso-Iranic input while the latter seems to have elevated steppe and Med affinities. That might be because they are largely derived from Spharidic Jews, no?

[vbnetkhio]

Right, it was Mingle who told us he had contacted Davidski and that the man didn't want to upload any more samples 'for technical reasons'. That would imply he wanted to say the other ones aren't of decent enough quality. If he really did select them at random, it makes his excuse even more invalid and insulting.

he definitely did that.

these are the official labels of Montenegrin samples from the study. Yes, they are labeled a bit randomly, there is no Montenegrin2 or 3.
1,4,5,6,7 are in g25.

Montenegro1 Montenegro1 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro4 Montenegro4 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro5 Montenegro5 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro6 Montenegro6 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro7 Montenegro7 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro9 Montenegro9 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro10 Montenegro10 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro11 Montenegro11 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro14 Montenegro14 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro15 Montenegro15 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro17 Montenegro17 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro19 Montenegro19 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro20 Montenegro20 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro21 Montenegro21 0 0 2 -9

[Pine]

You were right about the Egyptian Jews btw. They are legit Levantines and likely the best representatives of the original Jews. However, I won't give you the Iraqi and Syrian Jews because the former has excess Meso-Iranic input while the latter seems to have elevated steppe and Med affinities. That might be because they are largely derived from Spharidic Jews, no?

I wasn't right about Egyptian Jews (assuming you mean Egyptian Karaites) in the way you think I was right. They do plot in the Levant with most models, as that's what you're solely focused on - so I provided you the counter example. However, their plotting so close is likely due to offsetting admixture, which is why I brought up the example of a European admixed Yemeni Arab who'd plot in the Levant, despite having 0 Levantine ancestry. This is why plotting doesn't tell as much of the story as you think it does. Samaritans likely have a similar issue. Samaritans are an outlier among Levantines. They're the only Levantine group which is closer to MBA Canaanites than to later samples. For whatever reason this ended up the case, they're not a good proxy for ancient Jews either. Other Jews separated from them over 700 years before exile. As for Syrian Jews, they're not a monolith. Some plot exactly in the Levant and it's not utterly clear why yet. Same goes for Iraqi Jews - some plot in the Levant. Iraqi Jews barely have any detectable Sephardic admixture. Syrian Jews have more Sephardic admixture, but have a lot of substructure. There are likely at least 3 subgroups of Syrian Jews. If Roman Era Judean samples changed in the direction if IA III Beirut, then Romaniotes may be the closest to pre-exilic Judeans. Libyan Jews and the "native" subset of Tunisian Jews are also a contender. The big mystery are Crimean Karaites, who score very high WANA on 23andMe, but otherwise, there is very little data on them.

[FinalFlash]

I wasn't right about Egyptian Jews (assuming you mean Egyptian Karaites) in the way you think I was right. They do plot in the Levant with most models, as that's what you're solely focused on - so I provided you the counter example. However, their plotting so close is likely due to offsetting admixture, which is why I brought up the example of a European admixed Yemeni Arab who'd plot in the Levant, despite having 0 Levantine ancestry. This is why plotting doesn't tell as much of the story as you think it does. Samaritans likely have a similar issue. Samaritans are an outlier among Levantines. They're the only Levantine group which is closer to MBA Canaanites than to later samples. For whatever reason this ended up the case, they're not a good proxy for ancient Jews either. Other Jews separated from them over 700 years before exile. As for Syrian Jews, they're not a monolith. Some plot exactly in the Levant and it's not utterly clear why yet. Same goes for Iraqi Jews - some plot in the Levant. Iraqi Jews barely have any detectable Sephardic admixture. Syrian Jews have more Sephardic admixture, but have a lot of substructure. There are likely at least 3 subgroups of Syrian Jews. If Roman Era Judean samples changed in the direction if IA III Beirut, then Romaniotes may be the closest to pre-exilic Judeans. Libyan Jews and the "native" subset of Tunisian Jews are also a contender. The big mystery are Crimean Karaites, who score very high WANA on 23andMe, but otherwise, there is very little data on them.

Interesting. So which group is responsible for the offsetting admixture in Karaites that has them plotting in the Levant? I was surprised to see how close they were to Levantines relatives to other Jews. Syrian Jews did seem mixed, yes. Probably a mix of Spharidic and Iraqi Jews. As for Iraqi Jews, I believe they do have excess non-Levantine input when compared to other Levantines. As for Samaritans, if they are not the best proxy for the ancient Jews, then who are in all honesty? Which modern-day group would likely be the best candidate for being the most Jewish genetically?

[Pine]

Interesting. So which group is responsible for the offsetting admixture in Karaites that has them plotting in the Levant? I was surprised to see how close they were to Levantines relatives to other Jews. Syrian Jews did seem mixed, yes. Probably a mix of Spharidic and Iraqi Jews. As for Iraqi Jews, I believe they do have excess non-Levantine input when compared to other Levantines. As for Samaritans, if they are not the best proxy for the ancient Jews, then who are in all honesty? Which modern-day group would likely be the best candidate for being the most Jewish genetically?

Egyptian Karaites may have a combination of Levantine (primarily), Aegean, North African, and Mesopotamian, where the Mesopotamian and North African "cancel out" the shift from the Aegean. Syrian Jews aren't a mix of Sephardim and and Iraqi Jews. You're forgetting their main component, which is from pre-Sephardic and from pre-Iraqi Jews. The closest modern group would be either Lebanese Christians, Palestinian Christians, or some subsets of of Syrian and Iraqi Jews. There are individual Iraqi Jews which plot in the Levant and it's unclear why. Much less is known about Mizrachi Jews,as they're not studied nearly as much. If, however, Roman Era Judeans were similar to IA III Beirut and shift further in the same direction, then possibly Romaniotes or Cypriots are the best modern proxy. This question isn't going to be solved till we get appropriate Roman Era Jewish samples. One also has to consider that there was likely substructure among Judeans.

[Deusex99]

The Serbian academic study had like 15 samples, but the fool only opted for five of them he percieved to be of high SNP quality. The trouble is the average of those five is unrepresentative of the whole study and when Mingle and vbnetkhio told him about it he still didn't want to make any changes to the average.

Indeed: "technical issue" is a good excuse used by (((Davidski))) to replace academic samples with non academic ones: like all Portuguese and half of Spaniards on G25 are from non academic sources as well.

He also eliminated the Central Greeks from Behar et al 2013 for no logical reason.

[JerryS.]

so why would GEDmatch Dodecad V3, GEDmatch MDLP K23b, and GEDmatch Eurogenes K13 provide difference oracle populations for the same data?

[digital_noise]

so why would GEDmatch Dodecad V3, GEDmatch MDLP K23b, and GEDmatch Eurogenes K13 provide difference oracle populations for the same data?

They use different sample populations for each category.

[Chris596]

There might be too much hype around G25, but I can really model my ancestry with it, pretty accurately.

Should you not trust anyone on this basis? I don't think so.

Davidski looked into my DNA file and he told me practically all the important information about my ancestry and has created a model which works very well almost everywhere. My profile description is basically all of my ancestry. He deserves the money for his work, but I think no one was obliged to pay him and use his services.

[JerryS.]

They use different sample populations for each category.

yes, but why? what is wrong with one model's choice of samples that another model chooses to use a different set?

[Jana]

G25 is overrated and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't pay money for it. Not worth it in my opinion.

[digital_noise]

yes, but why? what is wrong with one model's choice of samples that another model chooses to use a different set?

Because they are different calculators for different purposes. Some fit others better, some don’t. Despite being able to achieve low fits/distances, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the end result is accurate for you.

[JerryS.]

G25 is overrated and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't pay money for it. Not worth it in my opinion.

can you explain for this layman why you think that? Thanks

[ph2ter]

G25 is overrated and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't pay money for it. Not worth it in my opinion.

The real value of G25 are all those ancient samples in Davidski spreadsheet. If you are not interested in the ancient populations, then yes, G25 is not for you.

[Damião de Góis]

Indeed: "technical issue" is a good excuse used by (((Davidski))) to replace academic samples with non academic ones: like all Portuguese and half of Spaniards on G25 are from non academic sources as well.

He also eliminated the Central Greeks from Behar et al 2013 for no logical reason.

According to the user Ruderico, the portuguese EBC samples are from a study about Corsica and Sardinia.

[gixajo]

G25 is overrated and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't pay money for it. Not worth it in my opinion.

You are a Eurogenes K13 fanatic, nothing new.:D

[FinalFlash]

G25 is overrated and if I had to do it again, I wouldn't pay money for it. Not worth it in my opinion.

You should learn how to use qpAdm. It's the only professional tool that I'm aware of.

[JerryS.]

Indeed: "technical issue" is a good excuse used by (((Davidski))) to replace academic samples with non academic ones: like all Portuguese and half of Spaniards on G25 are from non academic sources as well.

He also eliminated the Central Greeks from Behar et al 2013 for no logical reason.

I don't know about the "technical issue" to replace this or that, but I would like to hear what he found objectional about the Central Greeks from Behar et al. 2013?

[JerryS.]

According to the user Ruderico, the portuguese EBC samples are from a study about Corsica and Sardinia.

how could Corsica and Sardinia provide valid sample populations for Spain and Portugal?

[Damião de Góis]

how could Corsica and Sardinia provide valid sample populations for Spain and Portugal?

That is a very intelligent question.

[JerryS.]

That is a very intelligent question.

I'm not up to speed on a lot of this so I don't know if that's sarcasm or not. however, even I know that the best population samples for a given region come from that region, not elsewhere. its like somebody scoring some sort of Iberian on a calculator that is actually Sardinian et al. or is it an accepted fact that Sardinian and Corsican people are closer to Spain/Portugal than to say Tuscany Italy?

[JerryS.]

Because they are different calculators for different purposes. Some fit others better, some don’t. Despite being able to achieve low fits/distances, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the end result is accurate for you.

ok, what other purposes other than to use the best possible samples from a specific region/population for each group to obtain the best possible results? there seems to be an obvious disagreement as to what sample population is best for use with certain groups, why is that?

[gixajo]

how could Corsica and Sardinia provide valid sample populations for Spain and Portugal?

Because most of genetic studies are based in comparations among neighbouring (or not) populations.All we do here is to compare one with other, this is how all this works...


3/D.
For admixture f3 analyses, aimed to test for evidence of admixture in a target population, we computed the f3 statistic using all pairs of population from Europe (including Turkey/Greece, Italian peninsula and Iberian peninsula), Caucasus, Middle East, North Africa, and Subsaharan Africa (Table S7). For the outgroup f3 analyses, aimed to estimate the amount of shared drift between a pair of populations, we computed the f3 statistics between a Sardinian (Arzana or Cagliari) and another mainland population, while using the Mbuti individuals as the outgroup. Both f3 and D statistics were calculated using Admixtools v3.0 (ref. 62). Statistical significance was assessed using the default blocked jackknife implementation in Admixtools. Results were displayed geographically using ‘nps’ set of maps available through the OpenStreetMap package in R.

Genomic history of the Sardinian population
Charleston W K Chiang,1,2,3 Joseph H Marcus,4 Carlo Sidore,5,6 Arjun Biddanda,4 Hussein Al-Asadi,7 Magdalena Zoledziewska,5 Maristella Pitzalis,5 Fabio Busonero,5,6 Andrea Maschio,5 Giorgio Pistis,5,6 Maristella Steri,5 Andrea Angius,5 Kirk E Lohmueller,3 Goncalo R Abecasis,6 David Schlessinger,8 Francesco Cucca,5,9 and John Novembre4

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6168346/

[JerryS.]

Because most of genetic studies are based in comparations among neighbouring (or not) populations.All we do here is to compare one with other, this is how all this works...



Genomic history of the Sardinian population
Charleston W K Chiang,1,2,3 Joseph H Marcus,4 Carlo Sidore,5,6 Arjun Biddanda,4 Hussein Al-Asadi,7 Magdalena Zoledziewska,5 Maristella Pitzalis,5 Fabio Busonero,5,6 Andrea Maschio,5 Giorgio Pistis,5,6 Maristella Steri,5 Andrea Angius,5 Kirk E Lohmueller,3 Goncalo R Abecasis,6 David Schlessinger,8 Francesco Cucca,5,9 and John Novembre4

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6168346/

I realize this is an over-simplified view, but wouldn't it be more accurate to get DNA samples from current populations in several locations on Sardinia and then average them out for a "Sardinian" sample?

[digital_noise]

ok, what other purposes other than to use the best possible samples from a specific region/population for each group to obtain the best possible results? there seems to be an obvious disagreement as to what sample population is best for use with certain groups, why is that?

I mean I think you answered your own question. Not everyone fits Eurogenes. For those who don’t, MDLP or one of the others might be a better fit for their background due to the samples used. As for what is best for what group, I don’t know. I think careful, curated use of G25 is the best we’ve got at this point.

[vbnetkhio]

You are a Eurogenes K13 fanatic, nothing new.:D

if you are interested in the genetics of Central and East Europe and the Balkans, G25 is useless for you.
Davidski is biased against this part of the world, and his tool will be uninformative and in some cases even misleading and wrong for you.
yet he has no problem taking money from East Europeans and Balkanians.

see how for example, he didn't include a single Central Greek in his tool, although a dozen are available.

if i'm interested in Central Greeks, on gedmatch i can check the results of all the academic Central Greeks, plus i can dig through the database and find even more real life central Greeks.


I don't know about the "technical issue" to replace this or that, but I would like to hear what he found objectional about the Central Greeks from Behar et al. 2013?

you can try to ask him on his blog. i wonder how he'll react. :icon_lol:

[marco]

if you all believe you can do a better job I’m waiting nobody is forcing you to use the tools or the averaged populations, you can work with the individuals to build a suitable model

[Slavic Italian]

if you are interested in the genetics of Central and East Europe and the Balkans, G25 is useless for you.
Davidski is biased against this part of the world, and his tool will be uninformative and in some cases even misleading and wrong for you.
yet he has no problem taking money from East Europeans and Balkanians.

see how for example, he didn't include a single Central Greek in his tool, although a dozen are available.

if i'm interested in Central Greeks, on gedmatch i can check the results of all the academic Central Greeks, plus i can dig through the database and find even more real life central Greeks.



you can try to ask him on his blog. i wonder how he'll react. :icon_lol:

David is an Eastern Euro????? I've noticed a lot of these tests do not register Eastern Euro well and not just his but others who have some association with him. Now as far as hid IBD Analysis. I think it is good to go.

[vbnetkhio]

David is an Eastern Euro????? I've noticed a lot of these tests do not register Eastern Euro well and not just his but others who have some association with him. Now as far as hid IBD Analysis. I think it is good to go.

i think he's an Eastern Euro wishing to be a Western one, and sucking up to them. :icon_lol:

the only proper averages he made in G25 are for NW Euros. also, his Yamnaya/WHG/EEF model is NW-Euro centric, and doesn't even work well for his own people, the Poles.

[Leto]

Davidski's Russian, East Slavic averages from G25 are okay. I think they are academic.

[Leto]

i think he's an Eastern Euro wishing to be a Western one, and sucking up to them. :icon_lol:

the only proper averages he made in G25 are for NW Euros. also, his Yamnaya/WHG/EEF model is NW-Euro centric, and doesn't even work well for his own people, the Poles.
He is Polish living in Australia. Don't know if he's a first gen immigrant or was born in the country. His English is correct.

[gixajo]

if you are interested in the genetics of Central and East Europe and the Balkans, G25 is useless for you.
Davidski is biased against this part of the world, and his tool will be uninformative and in some cases even misleading and wrong for you.
yet he has no problem taking money from East Europeans and Balkanians.

see how for example, he didn't include a single Central Greek in his tool, although a dozen are available.

if i'm interested in Central Greeks, on gedmatch i can check the results of all the academic Central Greeks, plus i can dig through the database and find even more real life central Greeks.



you can try to ask him on his blog. i wonder how he'll react. :icon_lol:

I don´t think is useless. Did you already try it?

[Slavic Italian]

Davidski's Russian, East Slavic averages from G25 are okay. I think they are academic.

Most are HGDP.

[Slavic Italian]

i think he's an Eastern Euro wishing to be a Western one, and sucking up to them. :icon_lol:

the only proper averages he made in G25 are for NW Euros. also, his Yamnaya/WHG/EEF model is NW-Euro centric, and doesn't even work well for his own people, the Poles.

I have noticed a lot of these Polish guys like the Germans. Peterski included.

[vbnetkhio]

I don´t think is useless. Did you already try it?

trying it would require giving money to Davidski.
when he fixes his averages for my part of the world, and explains what the hell he was thinking while making the old averages, i might consider it.

some Balkan members already bought it, just to get that Yamnaya model which doesn't even work properly for East Europeans, and just to realize the majority of Balkan samples are missing from his tool.
***** asked him to fix his Macedonian average, he ignored him. Decius asked him about the Serbian samples, Davidski lied to his face about some "technical issues". I can learn from their mistakes.

[Slavic Italian]

trying it would require giving money to Davidski.
when he fixes his averages for my part of the world, and explains what the hell he was thinking while making the old averages, i might consider it.

some Balkan members already bought it, just to get that Yamnaya model which doesn't even work properly for East Europeans, and just to realize the majority of Balkan samples are missing from his tool.
***** asked him to fix his Macedonian average, he ignored him. Decius asked him about the Serbian samples, Davidski lied to his face about some "technical issues". I can learn from their mistakes.

I'm not a fan of G 25. I told him that. I do like his IBD Analysis but he hates to run those.

[J. Ketch]

He is Polish living in Australia. Don't know if he's a first gen immigrant or was born in the country. His English is correct.
I'd heard that he's in Australia but never seen confirmation. It wouldn't surprise me though as his language/humour/wit is that of someone from these parts, not Eastern Europe.

[gixajo]

trying it would require giving money to Davidski.
when he fixes his averages for my part of the world, and explains what the hell he was thinking while making the old averages, i might consider it.

some Balkan members already bought it, just to get that Yamnaya model which doesn't even work properly for East Europeans, and just to realize the majority of Balkan samples are missing from his tool.
***** asked him to fix his Macedonian average, he ignored him. Decius asked him about the Serbian samples, Davidski lied to his face about some "technical issues". I can learn from their mistakes.

But this is a problem with Davidsky election of some references, not a problem with G25 itself. I think the tool itself is good, even the maths behind it and the statistical package must make this tool and those coordinates much more accurates.

[Slavic Italian]

But this is a problem with Davidsky election of some references, not a problem with G25 itself. I think the tool itself is good, even the maths behind it and the statistical package must make this tool and those coordinates much more accurates.

He admitted to me it is not good for someone with mixed ancestry like myself especially a 4 ethnicity model. Then he told me when you go beyond six ethnicities you overload the algorithm.

[Ion Basescul]

he definitely did that.

these are the official labels of Montenegrin samples from the study. Yes, they are labeled a bit randomly, there is no Montenegrin2 or 3.
1,4,5,6,7 are in g25.

Montenegro1 Montenegro1 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro4 Montenegro4 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro5 Montenegro5 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro6 Montenegro6 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro7 Montenegro7 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro9 Montenegro9 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro10 Montenegro10 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro11 Montenegro11 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro14 Montenegro14 0 0 2 -9
Montenegro15 Montenegro15 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro17 Montenegro17 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro19 Montenegro19 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro20 Montenegro20 0 0 1 -9
Montenegro21 Montenegro21 0 0 2 -9Did you guys try converting the files to 23andme raw data and sending them to him?
I've done that for all the samples that I've sent from Moldova and Romania, and he's never ignored any. He also responds to all my emails when I ask for help and even created the imputed coordinates for my family free of charge.


Sent from my Redmi 4X using Tapatalk

[vbnetkhio]

if you all believe you can do a better job I’m waiting nobody is forcing you to use the tools or the averaged populations, you can work with the individuals to build a suitable model

i did make a G25 style tool some time ago. it's surprisingly quick and simple, and doesn't require a strong PC like some other analyses.

here
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q4B_KHZoL3jOO9xhM2pwFp8zJXKqmo0S/view

i gave up from this project because it's very sensitive to the choice or reference samples. for example, if you exclude Finnish samples the coordinates become very different. which is the correct choice of samples then?
the problem is a PCA isn't meant for measuring genetic admixtures. tools which are really meant for this don't have such problems.


But this is a problem with Davidsky election of some references, not a problem with G25 itself. I think the tool itself is good, even the maths behind it and the statistical package must make this tool and those coordinates much more accurates.

i doubt this too, but with a proper set of samples we could make a better judgement.

[vbnetkhio]

Did you guys try converting the files to 23andme raw data and sending them to him?
I've done that for all the samples that I've sent from Moldova and Romania, and he's never ignored any. He also responds to all my emails when I ask for help and even created the imputed coordinates for my family free of charge.


Sent from my Redmi 4X using Tapatalk

he already has these samples in a "pca-ready" format on evolbio.ut.ee
he knows about this database, and gets most of his samples from there.
sending it to him in 23andme format would just make things more complicated for him.

i mean, he could project that entire database onto his g25 in 5 minutes, if he wanted.

converting them to 23andme would take me half an hour, and than it would take him hours to convert each 23andme file to .geno or .bed and project each onto g25.

so he can add them in a minute anytime he wants, but he refused Decius' request to add them. i doubt he would add them in 23andme format which would take him evene more time and effort.

[vbnetkhio]

I have noticed a lot of these Polish guys like the Germans. Peterski included.

i think Peterski likes Russians more.

[gixajo]

He admitted to me it is not good for someone with mixed ancestry like myself especially a 4 ethnicity model. Then he told me when you go beyond six ethnicities you overload the algorithm.

It will be the fault of the software we use, which cannot be very capable either, since none of us have a computer capable of making a quality statistical package work well, but not fault of the maths,;)

About not enough, or not enough good references, I can agree, but that could always get better with time.

[Slavic Italian]

i think Peterski likes Russians more.

Not sure about that.

[vbnetkhio]

It will be the fault of the software we use, which cannot be very capable either, since none of us have a computer capable of making a quality statistical package work well, but not fault of the maths,;)

About not enough, or not enough good references, I can agree, but that could always get better with time.

you could make a tool like G25 on your computer right now. some analyses do require a stronger computer, but a PCA really doesn't.

[Leto]

you could make a tool like G25 on your computer right now. some analyses do require a stronger computer, but a PCA really doesn't.
12 bucks is not a huge amount of money, so I don't know why you'd rather try recreating it instead of just buying the coordinates.

[Jana]

He (Davidski) looks down and has no interest in southern Slavs because we have too little R1a and too much neolithic admixture for his taste.

[vbnetkhio]

He looks down and has no interest in southern Slavs because we have too little R1a and too much neolithic admixture for his taste.

that's Davidski. not Peterski.

[Jana]

that's Davidski. not Peterski.

Indeed. Peterski on the other hand is complexed because of his big NW European autosomal admixture and atypical R1b haplogroup.

[gixajo]

i did make a G25 style tool some time ago. it's surprisingly quick and simple, and doesn't require a strong PC like some other analyses.

here

i gave up from this project because it's very sensitive to the choice or reference samples. for example, if you exclude Finnish samples the coordinates become very different. which is the correct choice of samples then?
the problem is a PCA isn't meant for measuring genetic admixtures. tools which are really meant for this don't have such problems.



I doubt this too, but with a proper set of samples we could make a better judgement.


But in what area is Davidsky formed?

Do you mean that you, starting from raw data, have created those coordinates, or starting from other coordinates of gedmatch references?

The distances in which are expressed every coordinate are the same that g25 coordinates used?

I see less decimal numbers, but this is not so relevant.

[vbnetkhio]

12 bucks is not a huge amount of money, so I don't know why you'd rather try recreating it instead of just buying the coordinates.

as i said, G25 is missing most of the sampless i would like to compare myself to, and Davidski refuses to add them, although he could do it in a couple of minutes.

also, 12 bucks by 12 bucks, and a guy who despises South Slavs, makes false South Slavic averages since Eurogenes k13 days, and uses his earned "authority" on Anthrogenica to spread lies about south Slavic genetics ...earns quite a lot of money from South Slavs. i don't wanna feed the beast.

[Jana]

as i said, G25 is missing most of the sampless i would like to compare myself to, and Davidski refuses to add them, although he could do it in a couple of minutes.

also, 12 bucks by 12 bucks, and a guy who despises South Slavs, makes false South Slavic averages since Eurogenes k13 days, and uses his earned "authority" on Anthrogenica to spread lies about south Slavic genetics ...earns quite a lot of money from South Slavs. i don't wanna feed the beast.

Out of curiosity, what does he says about south slavic genetics on Anthrogenica?

[gixajo]

you could make a tool like G25 on your computer right now. some analyses do require a stronger computer, but a PCA really doesn't.

Yeah, i know this , but I still don´t know many things about all this issue, and nobody can tell me what I want to know. :)

[vbnetkhio]

Yeah, i know this , but I still don´t know many things about all this issue, and nobody can tell me what I want to know. :)

feel free to ask.

[vbnetkhio]

Out of curiosity, what does he says about south slavic genetics on Anthrogenica?

that weird comment about medieval South Slavs being "just like Serbs and Romanians" It's just a little bit random and nonsensical, and shows his ignorance about South Slavic history and genetics.

but there is a bigger problem. it implies he thinks Serbs and Romanians are identical.
because of his "methodology" (lol) of calculating averages, Serbs and Romanians ended up being identical in G25. and he obviously used his G25 to analyze some samples he isn't allowed to publish yet.

so, he made an active effort to make horribly bad averages for the Balkans (and most of Europe).
when his customers ask him about this, he blocks and bans them, or responds to them with a rude one liner about "technical issues."
ok, he doesn't give a fuck about south Euroepans, I get it. actually actively despises them, seems more like it.

yet, when an interesting ancient sample comes out, he is suddenly interested in south Slavic genetics enough to analyse those ancient samples, compare them to modern popualtions, and use those "averages" as represenative, and then act all smart on ag.

remember his old eurogenes k13 Serb and Croat averages which were way off, and confused everybody for years. and on the other hand, every single puntdnal and MDLP calc had normal averages and simply included all the available academic samples.

[Jana]

that weird comment about medieval South Slavs being "just like Serbs and Romanians" It's just a little bit random and nonsensical, and shows his ignorance about South Slavic history and genetics.

but there is a bigger problem. it implies he thinks Serbs and Romanians are identical.
because of his "methodology" (lol) of calculating averages, Serbs and Romanians ended up being identical in G25. and he obviously used his G25 to analyze some samples he isn't allowed to publish yet.

so, he made an active effort to make horribly bad averages for the Balkans (and most of Europe).
when his customers ask him about this, he blocks and bans them, or responds to them with a rude one liner about "technical issues."
ok, he doesn't give a fuck about south Euroepans, I get it. actually actively despises them, seems more like it.

yet, when an interesting ancient sample comes out, he is suddenly interested in south Slavic genetics enough to analyse those ancient samples, compare them to modern popualtions, and use those "averages" as represenative, and then act all smart on ag.

remember his old eurogenes k13 Serb and Croat averages which were way off, and confused everybody for years. and on the other hand, every single puntdnal and MDLP calc had normal averages and simply included all the available academic samples.

Yes, because of his off gedmatch averages I believed Serbs and Romanians were very similar populations for years too, I admit. Which isn't the case.
His G25 Croatian average isn't the best either BTW, it seems made of urban Zagreb Croats of various origins and it's more Germanic than Slovenian average which I suspect is more southern than reality.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, because of his off gedmatch averages I believed Serbs and Romanians were very similar populations for years too, I admit. Which isn't the case.
His G25 Croatian average isn't the best either BTW, it seems made of urban Zagreb Croats of various origins and it's more Germanic than Slovenian average which I suspect is more southern than reality.

yeah, if he was lazy, he could've at least included all the academic Croats(Zagreb, Split, B&H) and given us the freedom to make our own averages.
instead he just kept 10 out of 13 Zagreb Croats.
btw, all B&H and Zagreb Croats are in the same dataset, this filtering required a line of code.

the Slovenian academic samples are more Germanic of course, but he included only 5 out of 10 or 12 i believe, so this can't be seen.

[JerryS.]

if you are interested in the genetics of Central and East Europe and the Balkans, G25 is useless for you.
Davidski is biased against this part of the world, and his tool will be uninformative and in some cases even misleading and wrong for you.
yet he has no problem taking money from East Europeans and Balkanians.

see how for example, he didn't include a single Central Greek in his tool, although a dozen are available.

if i'm interested in Central Greeks, on gedmatch i can check the results of all the academic Central Greeks, plus i can dig through the database and find even more real life central Greeks.



you can try to ask him on his blog. i wonder how he'll react. :icon_lol:


I don't understand the bias if any but I do find it strange that a Balkan review would not include any mainland Greek samples in it. Are you sure of that? I mean that can really slant G25 data away from the south Balkans.

[gixajo]

yeah, if he was lazy, he could've at least included all the academic Croats(Zagreb, Split, B&H) and given us the freedom to make our own averages.
instead he just kept 10 out of 13 Zagreb Croats.
btw, all B&H and Zagreb Croats are in the same dataset, this filtering required a line of code.

the Slovenian academic samples are more Germanic of course, but he included only 5 out of 10 or 12 i believe, so this can't be seen.


Yes, because of his off gedmatch averages I believed Serbs and Romanians were very similar populations for years too, I admit. Which isn't the case.
His G25 Croatian average isn't the best either BTW, it seems made of urban Zagreb Croats of various origins and it's more Germanic than Slovenian average which I suspect is more southern than reality.

And ccording to you, what exactly he pretends to do ?

And also assuming that you are right,according to what you comment, apart from harming certain groups by projection of their bias, is there any group that would benefit for the same reason?

[Zoro]

if you are interested in the genetics of Central and East Europe and the Balkans, G25 is useless for you.
Davidski is biased against this part of the world, and his tool will be uninformative and in some cases even misleading and wrong for you.
yet he has no problem taking money from East Europeans and Balkanians.

see how for example, he didn't include a single Central Greek in his tool, although a dozen are available.

if i'm interested in Central Greeks, on gedmatch i can check the results of all the academic Central Greeks, plus i can dig through the database and find even more real life central Greeks.



you can try to ask him on his blog. i wonder how he'll react.


To understand why Davidski does those types of things you have to go back to 2012 which is a time period probably no one here is familiar with. That’s when he became enemies with the Greek scientist Dienekes Pontikos. If it wasn’t for Pontikos Gedmatch would probably not exist because Dienekes is the guy that produced the DIY Dodecad software which allows calculators to function on Gedmatch.

Needless to say Dienekes was much more skilled with DNA tools than Davidski who was a true amateur and was very lacking on understanding on how these things worked.

You can see some of their arguments from 2012 on Dienekes blog at http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-so-called-calculator-effect.html?m=1

For example Davidski was foolishly arguing that he understood the calculator effect to which he was truly clueless


Polako also proposes a "solution" to the problem:
I actually designed my Eurogenes ancestry tests for Gedmatch with this problem in mind, by only using academic references to source the allele frequencies. This means that test results for Eurogenes project members and non-members are directly comparable. Perhaps other genome bloggers can eventually do the same?
The only effect of this "solution" is to ensure that there is a "calculator effect" for everyone using his tools. For example, if he uses only published Finns and Lithuanians to build his calculator, then every Finn and Lithuanian who takes his test will wonder why he is "different" from the published Finns and Lithuanians, because they will all suffer a "calculator effect" with respect to the reference populations. So, perhaps they will all be on equal footing with respect to each other, but their results will all be biased because of the issue I had identified.

Moreover, their results will never improve as more people join his Project, because these new people will not be included in newer versions of calculators: all users of DIY Eurogenes tools will continue to receive sub-par results. Well, small consolation, at least they'll all receive comparable sub-par results



12 comments:

AnonymousAugust 11, 2012 at 2:30 PM
I try to ignore Polako as much as possible. It's apparent to everyone with a modicum of critical talent that Eurogenes exists purely to assuage his own ethnic insecurities and at the same time find 'undesirable' admixture in populations he dislikes (basically Southern and Western Europeans). He's not a scientist. He wears his agenda on his sleeve. Polako's thought process can be summarised as thus: If it finds less non-European admixture in Poles, it's correct. If it finds more admixture in Poles, it requires revision.

Reply

DienekesAugust 11, 2012 at 2:46 PM
I try to ignore Polako as much as possible.

That is probably best, but I wanted to prevent other genome bloggers from making the same mistake of thinking that by removing project samples they're actually creating better calculators.

Reply

DavidskiAugust 11, 2012 at 3:13 PM
You're missing the point, as usual.

There are lots of people out there confused RIGHT NOW by the results your tools are producing. They have a right to be confused, because the results are useless.

It doesn't help them that maybe in 5 years you'll have enough samples to eliminate the Calculator Effect from many of your tests.

Have some consideration for other people, and stop thinking about yourself and your blog for once.

Explain clearly why people who aren't part of your project can't rely on your population portraits and oracle results.

Reply

DienekesAugust 11, 2012 at 4:08 PM
You're missing the point, as usual.

There are lots of people out there confused RIGHT NOW by the results your tools are producing. They have a right to be confused, because the results are useless.

It is you who is missing the point.

If there is a "calculator effect", then it affects ALL people who use your tools, because NONE of them have been included in the admixture analysis that produced them. By your own admission, you use only "academic references".

Your "fix" to the problem is to make everyone suffer a bias, including your own project members. The fact that all people (project members or not) who use your tools are on equal footing is no consolation, because they are ALL getting bad results.

In the case of the Dodecad Project, the results obtained by project members are as good as can be hoped for, while the results obtained by non-members using DIY tools may suffer a small bias, which will continue to decrease over time. Moreover, whatever bias exists for the Dodecad Project is reduced compared to an "academic only" approach, because the components are inferred with a larger and more repsentative collection of samples.

There is no magic bullet to obtaining higher accuracy.

Dodecad = Great results for some + slightly biased results for non-participants
Eurogenes = Biased results for everyone, participant and non-participant alike.

[Aren]

People need to stop being so dramatic. David does not care enough about Serbs, Romanians, Campanians, Greeks and whatnot for him to take the time and effort to pick out trollish averages for his spreadsheet. That's just the truth.
If he is biased about one thing, it's the Steppe hypothesis/Kurgan hypothesis and the amount of Indo-European admixture in Northeastern Europe, but that's normal. Everyone is biased about something close to their heart. I can't blame him for that.

[gixajo]

To understand why Davidski does those types of things you have to go back to 2012 which is a time period probably no one here is familiar with. That’s when he became enemies with the Greek scientist Dienekes Pontikos. If it wasn’t for Pontikos Gedmatch would probably not exist because Dienekes is the guy that produced the DIY Dodecad software which allows calculators to function on Gedmatch.

Needless to say Dienekes was much more skilled with DNA tools than Davidski who was a true amateur and was very lacking on understanding on how these things worked.

You can see some of their arguments from 2012 on Dienekes blog at http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-so-called-calculator-effect.html?m=1

For example Davidski was foolishly arguing that he understood the calculator effect to which he was truly clueless

Sorry, so Davidski created Eurogenes k13 and Dienekes Dodecad?

And as far as i can understand, the polemic about that "calculator effect" was more about a controversy about the idea of ​​each one of how to solve it, and that Deniekes said to have been aware of the existence of that error before Davidski, isn´t it?

[Leto]

People need to stop being so dramatic. David does not care enough about Serbs, Romanians, Campanians, Greeks and whatnot for him to take the time and effort to pick out trollish averages for his spreadsheet. That's just the truth.
If he is biased about one thing, it's the Steppe hypothesis/Kurgan hypothesis and the amount of Indo-European admixture in Northeastern Europe, but that's normal. Everyone is biased about something close to their heart. I can't blame him for that.
Yeah, I don't believe in that either. After all, he makes a buck from what he does, why would he deliberately promote misinformation about certain ethnicities which could potentially result in a profit decrease for him?

[gixajo]

People need to stop being so dramatic. David does not care enough about Serbs, Romanians, Campanians, Greeks and whatnot for him to take the time and effort to pick out trollish averages for his spreadsheet. That's just the truth.
If he is biased about one thing, it's the Steppe hypothesis/Kurgan hypothesis and the amount of Indo-European admixture in Northeastern Europe, but that's normal. Everyone is biased about something close to their heart. I can't blame him for that.

From what I have observed, there are at least two ways to be biased, one to defend what you like, and one to attack what you hate.

But there is still something worse than the use of biased arguments to defend or attack an idea, and these are the people who do not directly argue biased against the ideas, if not what they do is cancel the opposite argument, simply discrediting the transmitter of the ideas.

[JerryS.]

Yeah, I don't believe in that either. After all, he makes a buck from what he does, why would he deliberately promote misinformation about certain ethnicities which could potentially result in a profit decrease for him?

As I understand it his is the only game in town regarding the G25 coordinates. If there was another game in town then there's competition for them to require each to tweak their product for best results.

[Caballero]

Even if he wasn't so good in 2012, people within 8 years can drastically improve their skills and understanding. He could have gotten 2 degrees during that timeline lol.

I think he is ok in general, Dienekes was alright too but Davidski is more knowledgeable.

[JerryS.]

To understand why Davidski does those types of things you have to go back to 2012 which is a time period probably no one here is familiar with. That’s when he became enemies with the Greek scientist Dienekes Pontikos. If it wasn’t for Pontikos Gedmatch would probably not exist because Dienekes is the guy that produced the DIY Dodecad software which allows calculators to function on Gedmatch.

Needless to say Dienekes was much more skilled with DNA tools than Davidski who was a true amateur and was very lacking on understanding on how these things worked.

You can see some of their arguments from 2012 on Dienekes blog at http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-so-called-calculator-effect.html?m=1

For example Davidski was foolishly arguing that he understood the calculator effect to which he was truly clueless

That's quite the back-and-forth on this topic between those 2 that I did not know existed. There are people with 1/4 deep South Italian that use Dodcad and get that reflected properly but then use Eurogenes and it gets diluted to look like they are almost half North Italian. I always wondered why.

[Voskos]

He thinks he's entitled to badmouth even scientists who publish peer-reviewed papers on a regular basis. A clear case of narcissism combined with armchair science.

[gixajo]

I am unable to judge who was right or wrong between the two of them, with what little I know about them and their work just now. Each one had a way of understanding their work, and each one went their own way. Thanks to this, we now have more options to have fun with these things. The more points of view we have about something, even assuming that some of them could be wrong, the more we will learn about that issue.

[gixajo]

He thinks he's entitled to badmouth even scientists who publish peer-reviewed papers on a regular basis. A clear case of narcissism combined with armchair science.

I would not have so much faith in the academic world, nor so little in an ousider. The academic world is so inbred and corseted, that sometimes it is unable to accept that something good can emerge outside of it.

Although I recognize that if you are an authentic outsider, you would not seek the acceptance of the academic world, and you would present the fruits of your ideas without passing the academic filter.

But actually I don't have enough data to judge this particular case, I'm only talking about generalities.

[Zoro]

Sorry, so Davidski created Eurogenes k13 and Dienekes Dodecad?

And as far as i can understand, the polemic about that "calculator effect" was more about a controversy about the idea of ​​each one of how to solve it, and that Deniekes said to have been aware of the existence of that error before Davidski, isn´t it?

Yes but Dienekes also created the software that allows people to run their calculators at Gedmatch. He’s definitely more knowledgeable than Davidski so the way Davidski counters his weaknesses is by doing anything he can even if it includes biasing data just to prove them wrong. So from a technical capabilities standpoint he’s much weaker than Dienekes, Vadim, Dilawer and others.

On the positive side he’s managed to keep people interested in genetics by being active on his blog.

[Zoro]

Even if he wasn't so good in 2012, people within 8 years can drastically improve their skills and understanding. He could have gotten 2 degrees during that timeline lol.

I think he is ok in general, Dienekes was alright too but Davidski is more knowledgeable.

I disagree. He’s gotten a little better over the years but I have yet seen him to produce software himself or to be able to genotype sequences like Dienekes, Dilawer, or even Vadim. He’s definitely more talented than people here but even his G25 is nothing but a simple Plink PCA program that even a couple of people here can run. Even his G25 nMonte program was actually written by a fellow called Hujbrets

[gixajo]

Yes but Dienekes also created the software that allows people to run their calculators at Gedmatch. He’s definitely more knowledgeable than Davidski so the way Davidski counters his weaknesses is by doing anything he can even if it includes biasing data just to prove them wrong. So from a technical capabilities standpoint he’s much weaker than Dienekes, Vadim, Dilawer and others.

On the positive side he’s managed to keep people interested in genetics by being active on his blog.

So I don´t understand, why some people here think that Davidski is biased choosing references for G25 and for that reason they don´t like G25, but at the same time they defend Eurogenes k13, created also by Davidski?

I don´t know anything about this controversy, probably I am missing many things...

[Zoro]

He thinks he's entitled to badmouth even scientists who publish peer-reviewed papers on a regular basis. A clear case of narcissism combined with armchair science.

Very true! Although he’s been correct a couple of times he’s been wrong more often

[gixajo]

I disagree. He’s gotten a little better over the years but I have yet seen him to produce software himself or to be able to genotype sequences like Dienekes, Dilawer, or even Vadim. He’s definitely more talented than people here but even his G25 is nothing but a simple Plink PCA program that even a couple of people here can run. Even his G25 nMonte program was actually written by a fellow called Hujbrets

If i pass a random raw data, can you make G25 coordinates with them? How many people do you know here that can do this?

You can have talent to choose good references but not have it to create software, and you can be talented to create good software but not to select good references.

[Zoro]

So I don´t understand, why some people here think that Davidski is biased choosing references for G25 and for that reason they don´t like G25, but at the same time they defend Eurogenes k13, created also by Davidski?

I don´t know anything about this controversy, probably I am missing many things...

I don’t use his tools so i’m not very familiar with the bias European issues Discussed here but i give vbnetkhio more weight than others because he’s proven that he understands and is able to run some of these tools better than others here

[gixajo]

I don’t use his tools so i’m not very familiar with the bias European issues Discussed here but i give vbnetkhio more weight than others because he’s proven that he understands and is able to run some of these tools better than others here

Maybe they are right, maybe not, I cannot ajudge them either about if Davidski is biased or not. i have seen French and Italians complaining about their references and accusing him with the same argument.

The "crime" of bias is very popular here, everyone accuses everyone of bias:picard1:

[Zoro]

If i pass a random raw data, can you make G25 coordinates with them? How many people do you know here that can do this?

You can have talent to choose good references but not have it to create software, and you can be talented to create good software but not to select good references.

Very easy. Create a plink database and run plink PCA specifying 25 coordinates.

Yes but if you are able to create genetics software you would have more in depth knowledge of bioinformatics and can understand for example how to properly run g25 and what its weaknesses are

[Voskos]

Very true! Although he’s been correct a couple of times he’s been wrong more often

He was right on the steppe origin of Indoeuropeans I guess, and Dienekes was probably wrong supporting the Anatolian hypothesis. That still doesn't give him the right to discredit fellow scientists or amateur scientists nor to push an agenda through his several calculators.

[gixajo]

I don’t use his tools so i’m not very familiar with the bias European issues Discussed here but i give vbnetkhio more weight than others because he’s proven that he understands and is able to run some of these tools better than others here

i don´t know if he can, he post some unscaled references suposedly made with by him, but he didn´t explain how he obtained them.

I see odd seeing so few decimals, and I realized later that they were unscaled coordinates :picard1: ...I will excuse myself that I sleep little:rolleyes:

Sorry, vbnetkhio...

[Mingle]

So I don´t understand, why some people here think that Davidski is biased choosing references for G25 and for that reason they don´t like G25, but at the same time they defend Eurogenes k13, created also by Davidski?

I don´t know anything about this controversy, probably I am missing many things...

I personally don't think he's biased in the sense he dislikes non-North Euros, but more so that he doesn't give enough of a crap about them to give them decent averages.

That's mostly what the complaints in the thread are about rather than the G25 tool in particular. Nobody is saying that the tools that Davidski makes are bad, only his reference samples.

The thing with K13 is we can make our own averages or just collect enough averages to make our own conclusions about the reference samples. With G25, that's harder to do since barely any people have tested on G25 In comparison.

[gixajo]

Very easy. Create a plink database and run plink PCA specifying 25 coordinates.

Yes but if you are able to create genetics software you would have more in depth knowledge of bioinformatics and can understand for example how to properly run g25 and what its weaknesses are

Don´t worry, I know how to do this, we can do a contest between all who know how to make those coordinates, it could be funny.

We can use a raw data from an anonymous person, and everyone make his own coordinates made with that anonymous raw data, every competitor can present a maximum of 3 g25 different coordinates, then we run several G25 pre-selected models, and we make a poll to let the forum members choose the more accurate ones, after knowing where is the ancestry and origins of the owner.The vote of real owner of that raw data could have more value.

From when the raw data is sent until the coordinates are presented, we can give a period of 24 hours.

Of course it is not valid to pay davidski to make your coordinates

[gixajo]

I personally don't think he's biased in the sense he dislikes non-North Euros, but more so that he doesn't give enough of a crap about them to give them decent averages.

That's mostly what the complaints in the thread are about rather than the G25 tool in particular. Nobody is saying that the tools that Davidski makes are bad, only his reference samples.

The thing with K13 is we can make our own averages or just collect enough averages to make our own conclusions about the reference samples. With G25, that's harder to do since barely any people have tested on G25 In comparison.

They are people who said that tools were not good enough and that more than a few number of coordinates "overload algoritm" making results inaccurate...

That could be true, but I think that this effect is common, and that the error margin of error always can accumulate as to lose precision, but not so much as to invalidate any result.

I'm not using a translator, maybe what I say in English doesn't make sense or the terms I use are imprecise, I'm sorry.

[Mingle]

They are people who said that tools were not good enough and that more than a few number of coordinates "overload algoritm" making results inaccurate...

That could be true, but I think that this effect is common, and that the error margin of error always can accumulate as to lose precision, but not so much as to invalidate any result.

I'm not using a translator, maybe what I say in English doesn't make sense or the terms I use are imprecise, I'm sorry.

Alright, there are some people like Zoro here saying that his G25 is bad, but those are a minority. And those same people also hate GEDmatch/Eurogenes.

The main complaint against Davidski is his references rather than his calculator.

[gixajo]

I personally don't think he's biased in the sense he dislikes non-North Euros, but more so that he doesn't give enough of a crap about them to give them decent averages.

That's mostly what the complaints in the thread are about rather than the G25 tool in particular. Nobody is saying that the tools that Davidski makes are bad, only his reference samples.

The thing with K13 is we can make our own averages or just collect enough averages to make our own conclusions about the reference samples. With G25, that's harder to do since barely any people have tested on G25 In comparison.

You can do with g25 coordinates exactly the same you do with k13, and you don´t need to have your own g25 coordinates to play with references.

Even as you have read, you can do yourself G25 coordinates from raw data.

You just have to have interest, imagination, and a certain capacity for improvisation to join your ability to the tools available to do it.

[gixajo]

Alright, there are some people like Zoro here saying that his G25 is bad, but those are a minority. And those same people also hate GEDmatch/Eurogenes.

The main complaint against Davidski is his references rather than his calculator.

We all know that people is always complaining about anything, some people say that Myheritage is a shit, others say the same thing about 23andme...

We already know how people work, because we ourselves are people, and we don't work differently either ...;)

[gixajo]

I wouldn't take all this seriously, it's just a game.

I'm going to sleep, good night everyone.

[Halgurd]

ngl G25's Kurdish reference is absolutely shit

[Zoro]

G25 is a moneymaker for Davidski. Has anyone ever considered if he has so much faith in G25 why does he use qpAdm and Admixtools to prove something in his blogs and not G25

Hint: It’s because he knows that not just casual users look at his blog and he wants to save face with the more knowledgeable people since they don’t take G25 seriously

[Slavic Italian]

as i said, G25 is missing most of the sampless i would like to compare myself to, and Davidski refuses to add them, although he could do it in a couple of minutes.

also, 12 bucks by 12 bucks, and a guy who despises South Slavs, makes false South Slavic averages since Eurogenes k13 days, and uses his earned "authority" on Anthrogenica to spread lies about south Slavic genetics ...earns quite a lot of money from South Slavs. i don't wanna feed the beast.

His K13 nails my populations at least in the oracles.

1 Estonian_Polish + South_Italian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.346698
2 Ashkenazi + Irish + Ukrainian + West_German @ 1.356535
3 East_Sicilian + Polish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.396887
4 Danish + East_Sicilian + Ukrainian + West_German @ 1.397044
5 North_German + Ukrainian + West_German + West_Sicilian @ 1.403517
6 Southeast_English + Ukrainian_Belgorod + West_German + West_Sicilian @ 1.415856
7 Russian_Smolensk + South_Italian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.416141
8 Belorussian + South_Italian + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.420268
9 Danish + Polish + South_Italian + West_German @ 1.445588
10 Croatian + Danish + Greek_Thessaly + West_German @ 1.446850
11 East_Sicilian + Russian_Smolensk + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.459479
12 East_Sicilian + North_Dutch + Ukrainian + West_German @ 1.470756
13 Southeast_English + Southwest_Russian + West_German + West_Sicilian @ 1.491367
14 East_Sicilian + South_Dutch + Southeast_English + Southwest_Russian @ 1.493043
15 Estonian_Polish + Orcadian + South_Italian + West_German @ 1.493080
16 Hungarian + Hungarian + North_German + Tuscan @ 1.506524
17 East_Sicilian + Southeast_English + Southwest_Russian + West_German @ 1.509553
18 Ashkenazi + Irish + Ukrainian_Lviv + West_German @ 1.518932
19 East_German + Hungarian + North_German + West_Sicilian @ 1.524266
20 East_Sicilian + Estonian_Polish + Southeast_English + West_German @ 1.524837

[J. Ketch]

People need to stop being so dramatic. David does not care enough about Serbs, Romanians, Campanians, Greeks and whatnot for him to take the time and effort to pick out trollish averages for his spreadsheet. That's just the truth.
If he is biased about one thing, it's the Steppe hypothesis/Kurgan hypothesis and the amount of Indo-European admixture in Northeastern Europe, but that's normal. Everyone is biased about something close to their heart. I can't blame him for that.
Yeah, well, Balkanites and Southern Euro's can find agenda's against themselves in a paper bag.

[JerryS.]

Yeah, well, Balkanites and Southern Euro's can find agenda's against themselves in a paper bag.

LOLOLOLOL!!! I don't know the validity or any of the reason behind that but thats still funny.

Next it is hard to believe that Greek like Southern Greek is not used for Balkan references. For instance, while Peloponnese is maintained Greece as opposed to the Greek islands, it seems it would be southern shifted. This omission from Balkan references seems like it would skew the average result. No?

[Kyp]

ngl G25's Kurdish reference is absolutely shit

why

[Folcwalding]

People need to stop being so dramatic. David does not care enough about Serbs, Romanians, Campanians, Greeks and whatnot for him to take the time and effort to pick out trollish averages for his spreadsheet. That's just the truth.
If he is biased about one thing, it's the Steppe hypothesis/Kurgan hypothesis and the amount of Indo-European admixture in Northeastern Europe, but that's normal. Everyone is biased about something close to their heart. I can't blame him for that.

Agree. Face it: Davidski has set the tone and developed nice 'tools', look at the section here in auDNA all filled with G25. That weep and cry thing 'he is against us' is pathetic....

[JerryS.]

Agree. Face it: Davidski has set the tone and developed nice 'tools', look at the section here in auDNA all filled with G25. That weep and cry thing 'he is against us' is pathetic....

I wouldn't say hes against any body I don't know him personally nor have I ever conversed with him. However some people have brought up valid points regarding his omission of key population groups that would benefit a total regional average. Like not including Greece in a Balkan study...

[Folcwalding]

I wouldn't say hes against any body I don't know him personally nor have I ever conversed with him. However some people have brought up valid points regarding his omission of key population groups that would benefit a total regional average. Like not including Greece in a Balkan study...

Ok, but keep it 'sober' or 'matter of fact'. But I see an undertone of 'biased intentions' . That's may be my allergy: I can't stand that weeping 'calimero' kind of statements....

[Folcwalding]

Double....

[vbnetkhio]

So I don´t understand, why some people here think that Davidski is biased choosing references for G25 and for that reason they don´t like G25, but at the same time they defend Eurogenes k13, created also by Davidski?

I don´t know anything about this controversy, probably I am missing many things...

k13 is a calcualtor, so it doesn't have all the inherent problems associated with a PCA.
the official averages are also horrendous, but it's a public and free tool, so we can make our own averages.
that's why i use it. i don't care who made it.


Yeah, I don't believe in that either. After all, he makes a buck from what he does, why would he deliberately promote misinformation about certain ethnicities which could potentially result in a profit decrease for him?


People need to stop being so dramatic. David does not care enough about Serbs, Romanians, Campanians, Greeks and whatnot for him to take the time and effort to pick out trollish averages for his spreadsheet. That's just the truth.
If he is biased about one thing, it's the Steppe hypothesis/Kurgan hypothesis and the amount of Indo-European admixture in Northeastern Europe, but that's normal. Everyone is biased about something close to their heart. I can't blame him for that.

if he was just lazy and didn't care, he would have just included all the samples.
he wouldn't have made such an effort to remove representative samples and keep unrepresentative ones.

i have no idea why he does it, but he does. the proof is in this thread and others. anbody who's interested can read this thread, look at his spreadsheet, and see what i'm saying is true.

this is the last comment i'm wasting on the guy and his G25 tool.

[JamesBond007]

G25 is a moneymaker for Davidski. Has anyone ever considered if he has so much faith in G25 why does he use qpAdm and Admixtools to prove something in his blogs and not G25

Hint: It’s because he knows that not just casual users look at his blog and he wants to save face with the more knowledgeable people since they don’t take G25 seriously

Yeah, but qpAdm etc.. is even nerdier than G25 and it seems to be a pain in the ass to set up on a linux system especially since I found the 'official' documentation to be lackluster at best.

[vbnetkhio]

i don´t know if he can, he post some unscaled references suposedly made with by him, but he didn´t explain how he obtained them.

I see odd seeing so few decimals, and I realized later that they were unscaled coordinates :picard1: ...I will excuse myself that I sleep little:rolleyes:

Sorry, vbnetkhio...

i made a scaled PCA with 30 coordinates directly from hundreds of DNA raw data files.
you can do the same on your PC.



Dienekes is the guy that produced the DIY Dodecad software which allows calculators to function on Gedmatch.

do you know what was Dienekes' solution to the calculator effect? why does he say the bias will decrease over time?

[JerryS.]

i made a scaled PCA with 30 coordinates directly from hundreds of DNA raw data files.
you can do the same on your PC.




do you know what was Dienekes' solution to the calculator effect? why does he say the bias will decrease over time?

I guess this effect only changes as better samples are used for the model?

[Samnium]

Very bad averages for Italy, especially Southern.

[Pine]

Very bad averages for Italy, especially Southern.

Based on what?

[Deusex99]

Based on what?

Both North and South (see Piedmont, Liguria and Italian Swiss)

The study that published those samples (Raveane et al and linked Parolo et al) openly admitted in the supplementary info about having no info about the origin and the birthplace of their samples. They all came from medical databases which include foreigners and mixed people. The authors of the study guessed their origin based on the paternal surname alone and they didn't even had info about surname for all samples. Amateurish at best and they even had the courage to publish them.

[Samnium]

Based on what?

Based on three samples for the calabrian average for example. Inaccurate averages for Piemonte and other regions too.

Sicilian East and West division doesn't make sense at all also, anyone who has studied a bit sicilian genetics know that.

It's not something out of nothing or because I "hate" Davidski, something has to be cleared : the modern averages are most of the time ridiculous.

[Chris596]

as i said, G25 is missing most of the sampless i would like to compare myself to, and Davidski refuses to add them, although he could do it in a couple of minutes.

also, 12 bucks by 12 bucks, and a guy who despises South Slavs, makes false South Slavic averages since Eurogenes k13 days, and uses his earned "authority" on Anthrogenica to spread lies about south Slavic genetics ...earns quite a lot of money from South Slavs. i don't wanna feed the beast.

Wow really? I couldn't have imagined before that he can get so personal with some people. This is what I got from him, don't you think it's accurate? I'm very close to South Slavs genetically:

Distance to: ChrisJ_scaled
0.02392174 Montenegrin
0.02519419 Bosnian
0.02739376 Romanian
0.02778235 Serbian
0.03071410 Croatian
0.03140491 Macedonian
0.03237265 Bulgarian
0.03543271 Slovenian
0.03566924 Hungarian
0.03577579 Moldavian

[vbnetkhio]

Wow really? I couldn't have imagined before that he can get so personal with some people. This is what I got from him, don't you think it's accurate? I'm very close to South Slavs genetically:

Distance to: ChrisJ_scaled
0.02392174 Montenegrin
0.02519419 Bosnian
0.02739376 Romanian
0.02778235 Serbian
0.03071410 Croatian
0.03140491 Macedonian
0.03237265 Bulgarian
0.03543271 Slovenian
0.03566924 Hungarian
0.03577579 Moldavian

probably correct top 10 populations, but in the wrong order. Montenegrin, Macedonian and Serbian averages include slightly outlying samples which skew the averages.

[JerryS.]

Samnium
Very bad averages for Italy, especially Southern.


Pine
Based on what?


Deusex99
Both North and South (see Piedmont, Liguria and Italian Swiss)

The study that published those samples (Raveane et al and linked Parolo et al) openly admitted in the supplementary info about having no info about the origin and the birthplace of their samples. They all came from medical databases which include foreigners and mixed people. The authors of the study guesses their origin based on the paternal surname alone and they didn't even had info about surname for all samples. Amateurish at best and they even had the courage to publish them.


Samnium
Based on three samples for the Calabrian average for example. Inaccurate averages for Piemonte and other regions too.

Sicilian East and West division doesn't make sense at all also, anyone who has studied a bit Sicilian genetics know that.

It's not something out of nothing or because I "hate" Davidski, something has to be cleared : the modern averages are most of the time ridiculous.


I'm beginning to understand the shortcomings of the G25 data with regards to accurate southern groups from the Mediterranean. Its becoming more clear how somebody with 25% deep south Italian will show 35-40% north Italian using G25 coordinates on many of the DIY models.

[digital_noise]

I'm beginning to understand the shortcomings of the G25 data with regards to accurate southern groups from the Mediterranean. Its becoming more clear how somebody with 25% deep south Italian will show 35-40% north Italian using G25 coordinates on many of the DIY models.

It’s more than just this however. I often get Northern Italian instead of southern. Only a handful of calcs made actually identify what is accurate. You need to remember that Vahaduo will look for the best fit possible over accuracy. That’s just how the program works. That’s why often time GEDMATCH oracles are so fucked. I don’t think anyone will argue that G25 is not perfect but it’s a good tool for modeling and getting about as close as we can at this point for DIY stuff.

[Pine]

Based on three samples for the calabrian average for example. Inaccurate averages for Piemonte and other regions too.

Sicilian East and West division doesn't make sense at all also, anyone who has studied a bit sicilian genetics know that.

It's not something out of nothing or because I "hate" Davidski, something has to be cleared : the modern averages are most of the time ridiculous.

What are you comparing those averages to? What's the best way to divide Sicily?

[Pine]

Both North and South (see Piedmont, Liguria and Italian Swiss)

The study that published those samples (Raveane et al and linked Parolo et al) openly admitted in the supplementary info about having no info about the origin and the birthplace of their samples. They all came from medical databases which include foreigners and mixed people. The authors of the study guessed their origin based on the paternal surname alone and they didn't even had info about surname for all samples. Amateurish at best and they even had the courage to publish them.

Can you show me which individuals are likely mixed and/or foreign?

[Deusex99]

Can you show me which individuals are likely mixed and/or foreign?

Too many to count honestly. I only remember 4 Campanians with significant recent North African admixture (up to 20%). Also a few with impossible level of Natufian admixture (up to 18%). Keep in mind that G25 has also 8 Campanians from GEDmatch and they are no different from Apulians and Lucanians.

[Deusex99]

https://i.ibb.co/Kx4rCt4/1596045096200-1.jpg

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I think Davidski has been reading this thread...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/08/housekeeping-stuff.html

[Defcon2]

I think Davidski has been reading this thread...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/08/housekeeping-stuff.html

They seemed like good samples to me, few but good, I don't know what he's going to do in terms of modern populations to supply them.

[Aren]

I think Davidski has been reading this thread...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/08/housekeeping-stuff.html

Sigh...
Ty TS and other crybabies here. Imagine being this sensitive and unreasonable.

[dududud]

Too many to count honestly. I only remember 4 Campanians with significant recent North African admixture (up to 20%). Also a few with impossible level of Natufian admixture (up to 18%). Keep in mind that G25 has also 8 Campanians from GEDmatch and they are no different from Apulians and Lucanians.

And what is the problem? They have that kind of admixture, it's a typically thing in this area.

[JamesBond007]

They seemed like good samples to me, few but good, I don't know what he's going to do in terms of modern populations to supply them.

He said if you want to know your modern ancestry then use Iron Age and Medieval models.

[Samnium]

What are you comparing those averages to? What's the best way to divide Sicily?

SE, NE (Messina Region), Central Sicily, Palermo and Trapani. Something like that.

Western / Eastern doesn't mean anything.

[Samnium]

And what is the problem? They have that kind of admixture, it's a typically thing in this area.

Southern Italians aren't half berbers neither.

There are outliers in the G25 averages not only for Southern Italy but also Northern Italy.

The result is that a piedmontese, will never match the piedmontese average.

And from what he said, 18% Natufian is just an enormous amount. Especially considering the fact that these individuals will probably have also some other "exotic" admixture aside, it's clearly not "typical" at all.

[Adamm]

Southern Italians aren't half berbers neither.

There are outliers in the G25 averages not only for Southern Italy but also Northern Italy.

The result is that a piedmontese, will never match the piedmontese average.

And from what he said, 18% Natufian is just an enormous amount. Especially considering the fact that these individuals will probably have also some other "exotic" admixture aside, it's clearly not "typical" at all.

What do you think?

https://i.imgur.com/cnCaurO.png

I managed to get a good fit on them.

[Ion Basescul]

What do you think?

https://i.imgur.com/cnCaurO.png

I managed to get a good fit on them.

Basal Eurasian? Did they finally discover them?

[Samnium]

What do you think?

https://i.imgur.com/cnCaurO.png

I managed to get a good fit on them.

Good model.

It shows also why 18% Natufian or 20% Iberomaurusian is just impossible for southern Italians, even the most "MENA" shifted one.

The range for S.Italians "non euro" admixture is somewhere between 13% to 20/22% for outliers and very southern shifted samples.

The only reason why you would find "20% Iberomaurusian" or "18% natufian" samples is recent "admixture" impossible otherwise. Non-euro admixture in S.Italians is separated in several different components.

[Damião de Góis]

I think Davidski has been reading this thread...

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/08/housekeeping-stuff.html

I was hoping for more samples. Hopefully more from Portugal, but ok i guess that's that.

[Adamm]

Basal Eurasian? Did they finally discover them?

Some dude from another forum made a custom coordinate for that:


To be clear, this calculator doesn't "prove" and isn't meant to prove the broader Out of America theory I posted. The calculator's purpose is to show that Africans can be modeled with much more Upper Paleolithic Eurasian ancestry than previously considered-- which opens up the way to some type of pre-Neolithic back-migration.

I noticed a curious thing in the G25: representatives from all four of the main linguistic groups in Africa, are more closely related to Ust Ishim than to any other ancient Eurasians from outside of the Near East.-- see this Vahaduo image here.

Now, why would this be the case? Maybe Ust Ishim's older age means it simply had less time to drift away from Africans? But Yoruba are theorized to have 13% Taforalt related ancestry, and Taforalt is ~40-55% Villabruna-like. More signficantly, Amhara have a lot of West Eurasian ancestry-- you can model them (crudely) as ~55% Natufian and ~45% Dinka-- and Natufians are 50-70% Villabruna/West Eurasian-like.

What's going on here? Ust Ishim, of course, represents our sole real Upper Paleolithic Eurasian whose ancestral profile seems to predate the hypothesized East-West Eurasian split. So I thought, could I model the supposed Eurasian back-migration into Africa with this component, then create synthetic "basal" components to to compensate? It worked pretty well

I present the experimental "deep" calculator with Ust Ishim forming a significant part of sub-Saharans' ancestry. This calculator also works well for most West Eurasians (except Balts, Finnics etc). If you're Nilo-Saharan, Niger-Congo, or South African, you can probably remove t

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21281-Experimental-K12-quot-Deep-quot-Calculator-for-Africans-and-West-Eurasians&fbclid=IwAR2ZeuNUf2jQ92v3HkL1isDfVdsfiyOAjlUQY6_9V IFvdqZmxpOdzuglyrs

It works pretty well.

[Adamm]

Good model.

It shows also why 18% Natufian or 20% Iberomaurusian is just impossible for southern Italians, even the most "MENA" shifted one.

The range for S.Italians "non euro" admixture is somewhere between 13% to 20/22% for outliers and very southern shifted samples.

The only reason why you would find "20% Iberomaurusian" or "18% natufian" samples is recent "admixture" impossible otherwise. Non-euro admixture in S.Italians is separated in several different components.

20% IBM is VERY outlier case, when taking into considerations that North Africans get 30% to 45% IBM.

[Defcon2]

He said if you want to know your modern ancestry then use Iron Age and Medieval models.

For the Spanish there are only 6 medieval samples comparable to the modern Iberian ones and all are from Catalonia, the rest of the old samples show African outliers or are simply modern Basques. Of modern we have about 225 samples that are available distributed regionally.

[Pine]

Good model.

It shows also why 18% Natufian or 20% Iberomaurusian is just impossible for southern Italians, even the most "MENA" shifted one.

The range for S.Italians "non euro" admixture is somewhere between 13% to 20/22% for outliers and very southern shifted samples.

The only reason why you would find "20% Iberomaurusian" or "18% natufian" samples is recent "admixture" impossible otherwise. Non-euro admixture in S.Italians is separated in several different components.

You like his model but fail to note that it does show that East vs West is a meaningful distinction in Sicily re: Berber.

[Samnium]

You like his model but fail to note that it does show that East vs West is a meaningful distinction in Sicily re: Berber.

3 samples don't tell the whole story, they could be all from Trapani, which is the only significant province where there's significant NA admixture, I base what I say upon professionnal studies and results that I've seen either on gedmatch/23andme etc.

The East/West division is completely retarded, because Davidski don't know well S.Italian genetics, it would be like dividing Tuscany in Eastern Tuscany and Western Tuscany. I would say just : wtf.

[Lucas]

You like his model but fail to note that it does show that East vs West is a meaningful distinction in Sicily re: Berber.

Are you joking about substantial Berber on Sicily?

[Rocinante]

Are you joking about substantial Berber on Sicily?

He likes MENAizing everything he can, actually.

[gixajo]

I was hoping for more samples. Hopefully more from Portugal, but ok i guess that's that.

I wanted to have seen new references from the peninsula, especially Portuguese, (and that the Spanish ones increased, of course)

But the whole bunch of complexed whiners and crybabies have managed to bore Davidsky.

"my compatriots are not so southern shifted as Davidsky shows in his biased references..."

Panda de gilipollas...

[JamesBond007]

For the Spanish there are only 6 medieval samples comparable to the modern Iberian ones and all are from Catalonia, the rest of the old samples show African outliers or are simply modern Basques. Of modern we have about 225 samples that are available distributed regionally.

I'll give an example. I know that I am 75% British Isles and 25% SouthWestern German. So knowing history I know there were Celts, Saxons, Germans, Vikings and Romans all in the British Isles therefore I do not use simply 'British Samples' :


Insular_Celt:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.057 171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
Insular_Celt:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.05 0388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
Insular_Celt:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.047 804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003 697,0.002289,-0.001317
Insular_Celt:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.04 5866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068, 0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006 159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
Insular_Celt:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.04 6512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225,0 .001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
Insular_Celt:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.0507 11,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000 124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156,0.132035,0.138112,0. 057699,0.053295,0.038776,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0 .007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160,0.129758,0.136081,0. 059585,0.050388,0.03416,0.023427,0.002585,0.00923, 0.002045,0.003827,-0.007632,0.009741,-0.016204,-0.018992,0.019951,-0.006099,-0.015776,0.008995,0.007542,0.003126,0.004243,0.001 607,0.006409,0.012411,-0.000479
German:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0 .067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863 ,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
German:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0 .04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.00347 7,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
German:DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.05 1034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.0046 99,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
German:DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.03 8114,0.036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
German:DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0. 057494,0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
German:DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0. 055233,0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.01043 1,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
German:DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.06222 5,0.037791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
German:DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.0512 88,0.04199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002 588,0.011568,-0.003952
Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.1240 67,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.00 1175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43,0.112685,0.15436,-0.033941,-0.067507,0.001539,-0.025658,0.002115,-0.006692,-0.007976,0.029158,0.005034,0.009142,-0.014123,0.004542,-0.020494,0.000663,0.017341,0.003294,0.003394,-0.002501,-0.010731,0.010881,-0.000493,0.008917,-0.001916
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44,0.118376,0.165531,-0.026398,-0.072998,0.00677,-0.019522,0.00188,-0.006231,-0.003886,0.032438,0.005521,0.005545,-0.013379,0.000413,-0.013436,-0.00305,0.015255,-0.001647,0.000126,-0.004627,0,0.000247,0.001479,0.007471,0.000599
England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.0 59109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048 127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0. 004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.00364 5,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.0 59432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.000 37,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.0 71383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.05 1034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227, 0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.00 0863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.0 50388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084, 0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.0047 77,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.0 62339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015 183,0.001916
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926 ,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.00 6461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848 ,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014 307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143 ,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.00207 7,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000 377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.000838
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035,0.130897,0.13608 1,0.07203,0.047158,0.036622,0.019801,0.00188,0.004 154,0.009613,-0.000547,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.011893,-0.01101,0.022937,0.002387,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.004651,0,0.006364,0.002473,0.001972,0.007109,0.0 02036
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.13303 4,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.0119 99,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.11881 7,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.01 2692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015 608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.00879 6,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.09444 4,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.0 15922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006 378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.12084 8,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.01 9153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.13811 2,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006 183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.11678 6,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.01315 3,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.12287 9,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.00 3461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.12897 2,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009 461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005 068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.12694 1,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.01 5692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.010 17,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0. 002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.12186 4,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.01 6615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.01225 6,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003 113

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02772056 England_Saxon:I0777
0.02932190 England_Saxon:I0769
0.02950685 Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156
0.02996588 England_Saxon:I0161
0.03050188 England_Saxon:I0159
0.03321588 Insular_Celt:6DT18
0.03382754 Insular_Celt:6DT22
0.03401761 England_Saxon:I0774
0.03412486 German: DEU_MA:ALH_1
0.03530978 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.03628384 Insular_Celt:6DT21
0.03689108 England_Saxon:I0157
0.03793991 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.03882568 England_Saxon:I0773
0.04041399 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.04093081 Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160
0.04129293 Insular_Celt:3DT16
0.04385960 German: DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220
0.04540901 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.04542012 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.04751727 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.04782776 Insular_Celt:6DT23
0.04944617 German: DEU_MA:AED_106
0.04999816 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.05011800 German: DEU_MA:ALH_3


Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 1.8788% / 0.01878771
70.6 England_Saxon
11.6 Insular_Celt
10.0 German
6.2 Roman
1.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

[JamesBond007]

^IMHO, this is way better than the modern samples which were trash in comparison.

[gixajo]

I'll give an example. I know that I am 75% British Isles and 25% SouthWestern German. So knowing history I know there were Celts, Saxons, Germans, Vikings and Romans all in the British Isles therefore I do not use simply 'British Samples' :

a
And how do you know all your ancestors were from British Islands?

How many generations can you go back being from US?

[Defcon2]

I'll give an example. I know that I am 75% British Isles and 25% SouthWestern German. So knowing history I know there were Celts, Saxons, Germans, Vikings and Romans all in the British Isles therefore I do not use simply 'British Samples' :


Insular_Celt:3DT16,0.126344,0.14319,0.065619,0.057 171,0.038469,0.021196,0.00141,-0.001154,0.008385,0.009659,0.003248,0.002997,-0.012785,-0.009358,0.014115,0.001061,-0.007953,0.003041,0.002011,-0.006753,0.005865,0.005935,-0.001479,0.007953,-0.000479
Insular_Celt:6DT18,0.125205,0.142174,0.058454,0.05 0388,0.046162,0.021196,0.0047,0.008538,-0.000818,0.005103,0.000487,0.012589,-0.017393,-0.020368,0.023887,0.006762,-0.005346,-0.003041,0.012444,0.001,0.007986,0.000866,-0.00419,0.013857,-0.003353
Insular_Celt:6DT21,0.126344,0.12491,0.061471,0.047 804,0.027697,0.013945,0.005405,0.009923,-0.00225,-0.000911,-0.019487,0.012589,-0.011447,-0.007707,0.019951,0.006099,-0.008345,-0.003927,0.002765,0.003752,0.002246,0.001237,0.003 697,0.002289,-0.001317
Insular_Celt:6DT22,0.125205,0.140143,0.061094,0.04 5866,0.038776,0.014223,0.004935,0.005077,0.003068, 0.000729,-0.004872,0.001349,-0.01115,-0.016928,0.016015,0.000796,0.000652,0.003927,0.006 159,0,0.003993,0.005441,-0.011462,-0.00012,-0.000359
Insular_Celt:6DT23,0.126344,0.141159,0.060339,0.04 6512,0.036622,0.009482,0.005405,0.008077,0.00225,0 .001458,-0.008607,0.006744,-0.016055,-0.007019,0.030944,-0.003845,-0.018906,0.004181,-0.003268,0.012506,0.004492,-0.004081,-0.010476,0.008917,-0.001916
Insular_Celt:6DT3,0.132035,0.13405,0.058077,0.0507 11,0.033237,0.029005,0.008225,0.003461,0.001023,-0.004556,-0.005034,0.005245,-0.017096,-0.005918,0.028908,-0.011403,-0.023469,0.001774,0.003142,0.006378,0.010731,0.000 124,-0.002588,0.011086,0.002874
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156,0.132035,0.138112,0. 057699,0.053295,0.038776,0.017291,0.001645,0.003,0 .007976,0.00328,-0.00682,0.005845,-0.015609,-0.017478,0.025108,0.011403,0.001434,-0.005194,-0.000754,0.006503,0.00836,-0.005812,-0.004437,0.013496,-0.005029
Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160,0.129758,0.136081,0. 059585,0.050388,0.03416,0.023427,0.002585,0.00923, 0.002045,0.003827,-0.007632,0.009741,-0.016204,-0.018992,0.019951,-0.006099,-0.015776,0.008995,0.007542,0.003126,0.004243,0.001 607,0.006409,0.012411,-0.000479
German:DEU_MA:AED_106,0.125205,0.133034,0.064865,0 .067184,0.03416,0.020917,0.00517,0.008769,0.002863 ,-0.009476,-0.006171,0.002548,-0.012042,-0.006193,0.019544,0.008486,0.015255,-0.006968,-0.015964,0.005503,-0.003244,0.012736,-0.017378,0.005422,-0.000239
German:DEU_MA:AED_249,0.125205,0.126941,0.071653,0 .04845,0.043085,0.023706,0.020211,0.001385,0.00347 7,-0.01057,-0.011854,-0.002398,-0.009663,0.003303,0.019679,-0.002784,-0.026598,-0.001774,0.004148,0.00988,0.01697,-0.006554,0.000123,0.007953,0.010658
German:DEU_MA:ALH_1,0.118376,0.129988,0.06939,0.05 1034,0.048009,0.023148,0.014101,-0.000692,0.006136,-0.001822,-0.002436,0.003447,-0.008474,-0.012248,0.012486,0.008088,-0.005215,0.004307,0.00817,0.009755,0.009858,0.0046 99,0.001725,0.002771,-0.002395
German:DEU_MA:ALH_3,0.12862,0.112724,0.061848,0.03 8114,0.036007,0.018686,0.00094,-0.002308,-0.006749,-0.011116,-0.002436,-0.004046,-0.009812,-0.002202,0.017101,0.002652,-0.01695,0.006208,0,-5e-04,0.003993,0.001113,0.009983,0.015303,-0.010538
German:DEU_MA:STR_316,0.125205,0.12491,0.071653,0. 057494,0.040315,0.03012,0.019976,-0.004154,0.000205,0,-0.010718,0.003297,-0.012487,-0.004129,0.028501,-0.008751,-0.019036,0.007095,0.006285,0.002876,-0.001373,0.00915,0.000493,0.01928,-0.00455
German:DEU_MA:STR_486,0.120652,0.137096,0.04714,0. 055233,0.042162,0.020638,0.008695,0.011999,0.01043 1,-0.005467,-0.002923,-0.006894,-0.017245,0.005367,0.007193,-0.002121,-0.028293,-0.002534,0.010559,0.008379,0.007237,0.001484,-0.01972,0.011568,-0.001078
German:DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.06222 5,0.037791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
German:DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.0512 88,0.04199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002 588,0.011568,-0.003952
Continental_celt:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany:DA111,0.1240 67,0.151314,0.063356,0.026163,0.0437,0.005857,0.00 1175,0.002308,0.020861,0.02442,-0.012342,0.00015,-0.01665,-0.003165,0.014658,-0.009546,-0.018254,0.003801,0.005908,0.001626,0.009858,0.006 059,-0.004437,-0.005904,-0.005269
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43,0.112685,0.15436,-0.033941,-0.067507,0.001539,-0.025658,0.002115,-0.006692,-0.007976,0.029158,0.005034,0.009142,-0.014123,0.004542,-0.020494,0.000663,0.017341,0.003294,0.003394,-0.002501,-0.010731,0.010881,-0.000493,0.008917,-0.001916
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44,0.118376,0.165531,-0.026398,-0.072998,0.00677,-0.019522,0.00188,-0.006231,-0.003886,0.032438,0.005521,0.005545,-0.013379,0.000413,-0.013436,-0.00305,0.015255,-0.001647,0.000126,-0.004627,0,0.000247,0.001479,0.007471,0.000599
England_Saxon:I0157,0.129758,0.140143,0.065996,0.0 59109,0.037853,0.019801,0.00752,0.007615,0.006749,-0.00656,-0.006496,0.008992,-0.009217,-0.01156,0.028908,0.007955,-0.006258,0.000253,0.008045,0.009755,0.003619,-0.003215,-0.005176,0.025666,-0.002874
England_Saxon:I0159,0.130897,0.135065,0.062979,0.0 53618,0.038161,0.023148,0.00329,0.006461,0.001023,-0.000729,-0.001299,0.006894,-0.014569,-0.010322,0.028366,0.010342,-0.007432,0.000507,0.004525,0.008254,0.001373,0.007 296,-0.005916,0.012773,0.003592
England_Saxon:I0161,0.12862,0.13405,0.061848,0.048 127,0.04647,0.020638,0.004465,0.005077,0.006749,0. 004738,-0.002436,0.004946,-0.006987,-0.012799,0.024158,0.006895,0.004563,0.0019,0.00364 5,0.005503,0.002246,-0.00272,0.006779,0.016267,0.003233
England_Saxon:I0769,0.129758,0.132019,0.070899,0.0 59432,0.044624,0.025937,0.00282,0.005538,0,-0.006743,-0.006171,0.004796,-0.012785,-0.012386,0.028366,0.0179,0.00691,-0.003674,0.006159,0.008004,0.008235,0.005193,0.000 37,0.019521,0.002036
England_Saxon:I0773,0.141141,0.126941,0.063356,0.0 71383,0.044008,0.024263,0.00799,0.011307,0.00409,-0.00656,-0.005359,0.005395,-0.01219,-0.013074,0.021172,0.011668,-0.001434,0.000887,0.008673,0.008629,0.010981,0.003 957,-0.003081,0.015544,-0.007424
England_Saxon:I0774,0.134311,0.13405,0.054305,0.05 1034,0.038161,0.014223,0.013161,0.007615,0.001227, 0.003462,-0.004709,0.002548,-0.00446,-0.008257,0.018051,0.009016,-0.01004,0.005448,0.005908,0,0.002246,0.000371,0.00 0863,0.016267,-0.00467
England_Saxon:I0777,0.135449,0.136081,0.063356,0.0 50388,0.040315,0.019522,0.006345,0.009461,0.01084, 0.000182,-0.005196,0.001349,-0.003271,-0.020781,0.017101,0.020551,0.00326,0.002154,0.0047 77,0.008129,0.003993,0.00643,-0.00949,0.011929,-0.002754
England_Saxon:NO3423,0.129758,0.13405,0.068259,0.0 62339,0.0397,0.017012,0.004465,0.002077,0.001227,-0.007107,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.010852,-0.010459,0.027823,0.005569,-0.014212,0.004561,-0.000126,0.005002,0.009982,0.002473,0.002465,0.015 183,0.001916
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001,0.133173,0.125926 ,0.076933,0.061047,0.041238,0.021196,0.002585,0.00 6461,0.000205,-0.012028,-0.000974,0.004046,-0.000297,-0.006331,0.018051,0.013259,0.009648,0.001647,-0.000754,0.00075,0.002371,0.000371,0.005176,0.0128 93,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005,0.127482,0.120848 ,0.072784,0.070414,0.042777,0.031794,0.00611,0.014 307,0.009817,-0.022051,-0.001461,-0.001349,0.00892,0.012386,0.012893,-0.007558,-0.01708,0.002027,0.00176,0.001626,0.001497,0.00507 ,0.006902,-0.000241,0.00467
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002,0.129758,0.140143 ,0.05242,0.04845,0.045855,0.014781,0.00141,0.00207 7,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013641,0.001349,-0.012933,-0.001514,0.001629,0.009016,0.000782,0.001267,0.000 377,-0.006878,-0.00262,-0.006306,-0.002218,0.010001,0.000838
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035,0.130897,0.13608 1,0.07203,0.047158,0.036622,0.019801,0.00188,0.004 154,0.009613,-0.000547,-0.007795,0.001499,-0.011893,-0.01101,0.022937,0.002387,-0.001695,0.004561,-0.004651,0,0.006364,0.002473,0.001972,0.007109,0.0 02036
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036,0.132035,0.13303 4,0.065996,0.056202,0.0437,0.02008,0.004935,0.0119 99,0.006954,-0.012757,-0.003248,-0.002248,0.00223,-0.001789,0.002172,0.001591,-0.001956,0.001774,0.006159,0.005878,-0.007237,0.005935,0.003574,0.002048,0.003233
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_gtm021,0.121791,0.11881 7,0.081081,0.067184,0.045239,0.023427,0.00752,0.01 2692,-0.005113,-0.014214,0.000487,0.002398,0.007433,0.001239,0.015 608,0.00305,-0.011474,0.001267,-0.002765,0.003502,0.01123,0.004822,0.00037,0.00879 6,-0.002275
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_KAL006,0.133173,0.09444 4,0.085229,0.092701,0.038776,0.032909,0.017861,0.0 15922,0.004909,-0.038087,-0.001137,-0.012439,0.018137,0.016652,-0.002714,0.005701,0.001173,0.003167,0.005656,0.006 378,0.007112,-0.004575,0.011216,-0.001084,0.001437
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001,0.125205,0.12084 8,0.075047,0.058786,0.040623,0.026774,0.00658,0.01 9153,0.00859,0.000911,-0.007145,-0.000899,-0.016501,-0.007432,0.022258,0.0118,-0.003651,-0.011275,0.013827,0.010255,0.012478,0.021268,-0.017131,0.012532,0.008502
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_nuf002,0.122929,0.13811 2,0.061848,0.047158,0.044316,0.012829,0.0094,-0.002538,0.007976,-0.008565,0.007632,0.016785,-0.006095,0.006331,0.024701,-0.004773,-0.022035,0.014062,0.008045,0.008129,0.006114,0.006 183,-0.009367,0.002771,-0.010658
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg020,0.126344,0.11678 6,0.086361,0.0969,0.02462,0.021753,0.00423,0.01315 3,0.001023,-0.030798,0.007795,0.002698,0.009217,0.006331,-0.000271,0.023999,0.001825,-0.009375,0.004777,0.006628,0.000749,-0.003215,0.012078,0.002169,-0.007784
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021,0.125205,0.12287 9,0.065242,0.053295,0.041854,0.027889,0.00564,0.00 3461,0.005113,-0.002551,-0.007145,0.005695,-0.007582,-0.009771,0.012758,-0.008884,-0.017993,0.001394,0.007039,0.006253,-0.001996,0.005812,-0.002218,0.004097,0.001796
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg026,0.125205,0.12897 2,0.077687,0.070737,0.04647,0.024542,0.00987,0.009 461,-0.000818,-0.010752,0.003897,0.004346,-0.002676,0.005092,0.004072,0.010872,0.001825,0.005 068,0.004777,0.004627,0.006738,0.000618,-0.000986,0.010483,0.000599
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm035,0.117238,0.12694 1,0.079195,0.070091,0.039084,0.032072,0.00047,0.01 5692,0.011044,-0.021504,-0.003248,-0.001499,0.013825,0.007432,0.016151,0.016043,0.010 17,0.005448,0.003142,0.009505,0.005615,0.007419,0. 002588,0.016026,-0.002515
SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_urm160,0.125205,0.12186 4,0.076933,0.068153,0.041238,0.02761,0.008225,0.01 6615,-0.000818,-0.017312,0.003897,-0.004646,0.002973,0.009634,0.0076,0.006629,0.01225 6,-0.00038,0.000503,-0.004377,0.007861,0.000371,0.003697,0.010845,0.003 113

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02772056 England_Saxon:I0777
0.02932190 England_Saxon:I0769
0.02950685 Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0156
0.02996588 England_Saxon:I0161
0.03050188 England_Saxon:I0159
0.03321588 Insular_Celt:6DT18
0.03382754 Insular_Celt:6DT22
0.03401761 England_Saxon:I0774
0.03412486 German: DEU_MA:ALH_1
0.03530978 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt035
0.03628384 Insular_Celt:6DT21
0.03689108 England_Saxon:I0157
0.03793991 England_Saxon:NO3423
0.03882568 England_Saxon:I0773
0.04041399 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
0.04093081 Insular_Celt:England_IA:I0160
0.04129293 Insular_Celt:3DT16
0.04385960 German: DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220
0.04540901 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_kls001
0.04542012 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_97002
0.04751727 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_stg021
0.04782776 Insular_Celt:6DT23
0.04944617 German: DEU_MA:AED_106
0.04999816 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_grt036
0.05011800 German: DEU_MA:ALH_3


Target: Kevin_scaled
Distance: 1.8788% / 0.01878771
70.6 England_Saxon
11.6 Insular_Celt
10.0 German
6.2 Roman
1.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna

I have a specific model for that kind of thing, rather I wanted them to compare myself with other people from different regions or from my region

[JamesBond007]

I wanted to have seen new references from the peninsula, especially Portuguese, (and that the Spanish ones increased, of course)

But the whole bunch of complexed whiners and crybabies have managed to bore Davidsky.

"my compatriots are not so southern shifted as Davidsky shows in his biased references..."

Panda de gilipollas...

If I am not mistaken the modern samples were based on self reported ancestry which is in no way scientific. The ancient samples are based on DNA from grave sites which is scientific.

You really trust people to tell the truth about their ancestry or to know it truly ?

[Pine]

Are you joking about substantial Berber on Sicily?

Did you read what I said?

[Gondor]

What do you think?

https://i.imgur.com/cnCaurO.png

I managed to get a good fit on them.

I tried to use the program a while back, so I don't know much but that looks interesting, where can I find the numbers for it?

Also I think eurogenes is generally boring for me because I'm in the middle of central Italy with nothing interesting, honestly it looks precise to me compared to gedmatch oracles that I get Swedish+Somali or stuff like that, but IDK.

[Deusex99]

And what is the problem? They have that kind of admixture, it's a typically thing in this area.

Typical? The authors don't even know the origin of their samples. Read the study and the suppl info.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?326147-(((Davidski)))&p=6850676&viewfull=1#post6850676

There are 8 Campanians from GEDmatch on G25 and none of them score that. Here are the typical dna results of S. Italians.

https://i.ibb.co/b15vqPw/0.png

[dududud]

Typical? The authors don't even know the origin of their samples. Read the study and the suppl info.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?326147-(((Davidski)))&p=6850676&viewfull=1#post6850676

There are 8 Campanians from GEDmatch on G25 and none of them score that. Here are the typical dna results of S. Italians.

https://i.ibb.co/b15vqPw/0.png

Typical Southern Italian. Rien de neuf sous le soleil.

Do you have southern italian origin?

[Deusex99]

Typical Southern Italian. Rien de neuf sous le soleil.

Do you have southern italian origin?

The average I've posted is typical indeed. The study has not checked the ancestry of their samples hence the numerous outliers with mixed ancestry. Those are facts. Your opinion is irrelevant.