Y-DNA distribution in North Africa.

[Adamm]

For those who're interested in Y-DNA distribution of North Africa, here is a map in which you can see Y-DNA distribution of North Africans, the samples were taken from several DNA projects.

https://i.imgur.com/AAel1tK.png


LINK: http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/north-african-y-dna-distribution_475551?fbclid=IwAR1voWzEXpkVJJUF9P-q9GKQ4v1XnYZ6U--w5Evzr-2C1Z33iUNkhXaKWFs#6/32.999/-1.450

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Any impact from the people of Germany and Iberia that had historic moviments to Morroco and Algeria?

[Adamm]

Any impact from the people of Germany and Iberia that had historic moviments to Morroco and Algeria?

Maybe a little bit, we found R1B in several tribes. Also 1 morisco who carries R-U152 (he hasn't tested further but he's going to test for his terminal haplogroup).

[Rocinante]

Maybe a little bit, we found R1B in several tribes. Also 1 morisco who carries R-U152 (he hasn't tested further but he's going to test for his terminal haplogroup).

Interesting. U152 is found in iberians but to a lesser grade compared to the DF27.

[Adamm]

Interesting. U152 is found in iberians but to a lesser grade compared to the DF27.

We also found R-L21 in a Riffian tribe, R-L21 is dominated on yfull by anglos/Irish.

[Adamm]

Interesting. U152 is found in iberians but to a lesser grade compared to the DF27.

Also DF27 found in a Jebalan tribe:

https://i.imgur.com/teyGDBX.png

[Rocinante]

We also found R-L21 in a Riffian tribe, R-L21 is dominated on yfull by anglos/Irish.

So that's why there are some red hair cases... L21 descendants carry at least 1 red hair marker.

Are they ancient samples or modern? L21 is not common in Iberia.

[Adamm]

So that's why there are some red hair cases... L21 descendants carry at least 1 red hair marker.

Are they ancient samples or modern? L21 is not common in Iberia.

Modern samples. ALL of them are modern samples from people who are active in North African DNA communities.

[frankhammer]

No u106 so no one there won the genetic lottery. :shrug:

[gixajo]

Maybe a little bit, we found R1B in several tribes. Also 1 morisco who carries R-U152 (he hasn't tested further but he's going to test for his terminal haplogroup).

2 whit I, I2 (Beni Mezouar) near Tanger and I L22 (Bni Itfet tribe) near Al-Hoceima.

Most of R in 3 zones, in NorthWest Morocco, Another around Algiers, and another in North East Tunisia. After those 2 samples near Fes (one of them R Z93) 2 samples in North Algeria separated and one "outlier" in the middle of nowhere in Lybia.

What indicates the difference in colours among J´s and E´s? There is not colour difference between R1A and R1b...

This found is fantastic, thanks.

[Damião de Góis]

I think DF27 is definite iberian ancestry. Would be interesting to see a larger sample and to see how much there is, and to what extent expelled iberians settled.

[Rocinante]

Modern samples. ALL of them are modern samples from people who are active in North African DNA communities.

That's actually pretty curious... L21 and U152 in North Africa, couldn't be Beaker, it has to be somehow from iberians.

[gixajo]

That's actually pretty curious... L21 and U152 in North Africa, couldn't be Beaker, it has to be somehow from iberians.

Are you surprised that there are contributions from the Iberian peninsula in North Africa or vice versa?;)

[Adamm]

That's actually pretty curious... L21 and U152 in North Africa, couldn't be Beaker, it has to be somehow from iberians.

It is not weird when taking history into consideration, Phoenicians, Romans and so go on they all had free-pass between North Africa and Iberia.

[Adamm]

2 whit I, I2 (Beni Mezouar) near Tanger and I L22 (Bni Itfet tribe) near Al-Hoceima.

Most of R in 3 zones, in NorthWest Morocco, Another around Algiers, and another in North East Tunisia. After those 2 samples near Fes (one of them R Z93) 2 samples in North Algeria separated and one "outlier" in the middle of nowhere in Lybia.

What indicates the difference in colours among J´s and E´s? There is not colour difference between R1A and R1b...

This found is fantastic, thanks.

I'm one of the map admins so I will take this into consideration and seperate R1A and R1B by color. Thanks for the feedback.

[Rocinante]

Are you surprised that there are contributions from the Iberian peninsula in North Africa or vice versa?;)

I never said it was otherwise, i discuss the how, when and the quantity, nothing more. But actually is cool to know that there is a descendant of the Britonia Bishopric in North Africa.

[de Burgh II]

Probably remnants of Roman, Iberian and Anglo incursions in North Africa.

[Petalpusher]

It could also be viking raids, which still had a high proportion of R's. There are more R1b in Norway and Iceland than I1, about the same in Denmark as well for example. No need to go back to Bronze Age, or simply just even more recent colonies remnants..

[Adamm]

Also about the red hair, it is not necessarily from these haplogroups that red hair made its intro. Iberomaurusians also carried SNPs responsible for red hair:

https://i.imgur.com/NDEbc5R.png

[Rocinante]

Is relative common in North Iberia, but U152 not does not exceed 5% in the peninsula.
Surely the region with the most U152 is Catalonia and that would confirm that the French could have brought it there, I mean because Catalonia was part of the Carolingian Empire and more events with the French.
Who knows. We're here to know and learn.

I don't know exactly how much U152 is in Iberia, but it is old as DF27 in iberian soilds, so we know where does it come from (at least most of them). An user in anthrogenica told me is more common than L21 but still not near like DF27.

[Luso]

Very interesting. The DF27 and U152 are definitely from Iberians probably settling in North Africa not too sure when. Maybe reconquista!

[Adamm]

Very interesting. The DF27 and U152 are definitely from Iberians probably settling in North Africa not too sure when. Maybe reconquista!

Most logical scenario is that these R carriers were refugees (moriscos) whom settled in North Morocco, most moriscos were R1B carriers.

[Rocinante]

Maybe just that user told you a theory, because in some websites i saw that U152 doesn't exceet 5%.
Probably most of these haplogroup it's older, around Bell Beaker, Hallstatt & La Tène cultures. But a minority sure they can comes about Iberian conquests or some acconteciment similar. Like conquest of Spain by France in Napoleonic Wars.
Or Spanish Empire conquest Benelux. Remember en Belgium or North France have DF27. It can happened the same but in reverse. I mean.. someone with U152 comes here.
I also viewed that some Germans came for a kind of repopulation in villages, a German man that comes to Iberia can perfectly had U152 haplogroup.

Just are theories, any confirmation, but You know, We want to know more about it. Not only about U152, even all haplogroups here in Iberia.

That user had a big database and was the one to analize my raw data xD not exactly a theory. The rest is speculative for all sides.

[Rocinante]

This is very interesting actually, 2 R-L21, even more than R-DF27 and R-U152. Were there any brittish explorations to North Africa?

[Rocinante]

He's told you your subclade? :O

He was the one that analized my raw data, yes, and i learned to do so with him.

[Luso]

U152 is from Central Celtic people from Hallstatt and La Tène culture.
It's like saying that haplogroup U106 is Iberian, when It's Germanic.
The Iberian's haplogroup is DF27 and their subclades.
Celtiberian haplogroup probably..
Yeah I guess. But you also see sizable DF27 in Britain and central as well just way more in Iberia. Probably from iberians moving to those populations?

[Voskos]

It's interesting some tribes that consider themselves arab are indeed FGC-11 under J1 which is a true Gulf clade iirc. Good to see that some people managed to remain unmixed over the years.

[Adamm]

It's interesting some tribes that consider themselves arab are indeed FGC-11 under J1 which is a true Gulf clade iirc. Good to see that some people managed to remain unmixed over the years.

Arab tribes have managed to kept their tradition, culture and heritage alive in North Africa, also their arrival is very detailed documented by various historians. Most of them mixed with local population though, so autosomalic-wise most of them are between 30% and 10% Peninsular Arab admixed (23andMe).

[Damião de Góis]

U152 is from Central Celtic people from Hallstatt and La Tène culture.
It's like saying that haplogroup U106 is Iberian, when It's Germanic.
The Iberian's haplogroup is DF27 and their subclades.
Celtiberian haplogroup probably..

It's very difficult to associate an haplogroup with a specific ancient people. In the case of U152, it's modern distribution doesn't correlate that well with La Tene:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/72/c1/c372c1e62e78960b73efc7d0d92a3536.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/1S3lLy7D_99mmnuAo4kTZwHrTXne0BPfW18AVeCxtv3iVYVbov lqpV72aFXmH_LQih1zNyGsvfmrTu0RD99u24bWz8uTAAbGQ6qq LmFceUrhDh8e0efJ49UuceslawN5Emi6DKjzzAjo5aeEMhEkAq M

Its presence in Iberia and given that it peaks in north-central Italy could very well be associated with Roman movements.

[gixajo]

Different colours in J samples could be a way to differentiate J subclades who could come from Jewish people and other populations from Levant ?

And same for E different colours, to differentiate more native North Africans subclades and those that could come from SSA?

I ask it only, I don´t know a lot about Haplotypes.

[Rocinante]

It's very difficult to associate an haplogroup with a specific ancient people. In the case of U152, it's modern distribution doesn't correlate that well with La Tene:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/72/c1/c372c1e62e78960b73efc7d0d92a3536.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/1S3lLy7D_99mmnuAo4kTZwHrTXne0BPfW18AVeCxtv3iVYVbov lqpV72aFXmH_LQih1zNyGsvfmrTu0RD99u24bWz8uTAAbGQ6qq LmFceUrhDh8e0efJ49UuceslawN5Emi6DKjzzAjo5aeEMhEkAq M

Its presence in Iberia and given that it peaks in north-central Italy could very well be associated with Roman movements.

I think is more associated with gallo-romans movements, that map might be very unnacurate.

This is better IMHO and in my researches:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/b1/48/85b1484c7f2f3cd7a37c414962f0b3ee.jpg

Seems to be that U152 arrived alongside the DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but spreaded in a different way, more trending to the East.

[gixajo]

Arab tribes have managed to kept their tradition, culture and heritage alive in North Africa, also their arrival is very detailed documented by various historians. Most of them mixed with local population though, so autosomalic-wise most of them are between 30% and 10% Peninsular Arab admixed (23andMe).



Different colours in J samples could be a way to differentiate J subclades who could come from Jewish people and other populations from Levant/Middle East like Arabs ?

And same for E different colours, to differentiate more native North Africans subclades and those that could come from SSA?

I ask it only, I don´t know a lot about Haplotypes.

[gixajo]

Yeah, in North France or Belgium exist DF27 too cause the Spanish Empire.
So I think that not all haplogroups have to be old, it may also be that you have had them recently.
If there is DF27 in Northern France and Belgium, who doesn't tell you that some U106 or U152 has come to the peninsula because of the Spanish Empire or perhaps also the First French Empire due to the Napoleonic Wars?
For that I think it is better to be more open about it.
It really is fucking complicated to think that from the Bronze Age to the present day a man from that time has always had male children and those children also more male children and so, obviously it is not impossible, however most likely that at one point that be cut. IMHO.

Como te lea un francés o un belga...;)

[Damião de Góis]

I think is more associated with gallo-romans movements, that map might be very unnacurate.

This is better IMHO and in my researches:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/b1/48/85b1484c7f2f3cd7a37c414962f0b3ee.jpg

Seems to be that U152 arrived alongside the DF27 with the Bell Beakers, but spreaded in a different way, more trending to the East.

There are several maps, and in all of them it peaks in Italy. But it's all speculation. What i think it's certain is that the peoples that came to Iberia in the Iron Age (all of them) weren't all one haplogroup so it's very difficult to guess which people carried which haplogroup (to Iberia, in this case).

It's also possible that the Iron Age didn't change haplogroups that much in Iberia and the R1b haplogroups being discussed were already here. Sampling is very few so far.

[gixajo]

¿Qué pasaría? U152 también tiene relevancia en esos países. en Bélgica sobretodo en Valonia. Evidentemente la presencia Francesa/Gala.

Por lo de que es herencia española, no les gusta encontrar ninguna herencia ni relación con nosotros, y aunque la haya, cierran los ojos y tratan de no verla.

Tuve muchas discusiones con varios de ellos por cuestiones semejantes, se tapan los oidos con las manos , cierran los ojos y se ponen a cantar en alto para no oirte.

[gixajo]

There are several maps, and in all of them it peaks in Italy. But it's all speculation. What i think it's certain is that the peoples that came to Iberia in the Iron Age (all of them) weren't all one haplogroup so it's very difficult to guess which people carried which haplogroup (to Iberia, in this case).

It's also possible that the Iron Age didn't change haplogroups that much in Iberia and the R1b haplogroups being discussed were already here. Sampling is very few so far.

Bronze age "invaders" impact in native Haplogroups was quite heavy, isn´t it? Specially in Y Dna haplos.

[gixajo]

Quizás en este foro, pero seguramente en vida real les sude la polla al respecto. No pueden hacer nada, lo dicho, es como si me voy a Rusia y tuviese nacionalidad Rusa, seré ruso a los ojos de la ley pero voy a seguir siendo de dónde provengo. Un francés va a ser un francés, pero si tiene un haplogrupo que mayormente tienen los Ibéricos (no precisamente tiene que ser el mismo subclade) pues eso es por alguna razón, no tenemos una máquina del tiempo para averiguar los acontecimientos. También vete a saber todo lo que la Historia nos ha ocultado.

Sí, pero es que a este foro entra gente muy... "especial", por decirlo de alguna forma.:D

Pocas opiniones y temas que se leen aquí importan una mierda a nadie fuera de aquí, nos convertimos en una especie de frikies, y cada país o etnia tiene sus propias obesiones.

[Damião de Góis]

Bronze age "invaders" impact in native Haplogroups was quite heavy, isn´t it? Specially in Y Dna haplos.

Yeah, but Bronze Age isn't Romans, Celts, Germanic Tribes, Moors, etc. Peoples the people like to bring up when discussing haplogroups. The people that carried different haplogroups to the peninsula were probably much less glamorous.

[Adamm]

Different colours in J samples could be a way to differentiate J subclades who could come from Jewish people and other populations from Levant/Middle East like Arabs ?

And same for E different colours, to differentiate more native North Africans subclades and those that could come from SSA?

I ask it only, I don´t know a lot about Haplotypes.

Dark blue: Indigenous E-M183 subclade
Light blue: Indigenous E-PF2431 subclade
Red color: (foreign) R1b/R1a with their subclades (i will edit this to distinguish r1b from r1a in color)
Purple color: E-M78 with its subclade E-V13 (foreign) and E-V65 (indigenous)
Dark green: (foreign) G haplogroup with its subclades
Light green: (foreign) J2 with its subclades
Yellow: (foreign) J1 with its subclades
Very light blue: (foreign) I with its subclades

[Luso]

I think Z225 is native iberian? My theory as it’s far west Iberia

[Rocinante]

There are several maps, and in all of them it peaks in Italy. But it's all speculation. What i think it's certain is that the peoples that came to Iberia in the Iron Age (all of them) weren't all one haplogroup so it's very difficult to guess which people carried which haplogroup (to Iberia, in this case).

It's also possible that the Iron Age didn't change haplogroups that much in Iberia and the R1b haplogroups being discussed were already here. Sampling is very few so far.

Actually you might be right, but we have to play with the cards we have right now, and make numbers, % and conclusion with it.

U152 peaks in North Italy (actually every north italian in this forum is U152, including the nordicist savvas), meaning that the movements ¨started¨ there, but i don´t really think it is only a roman haplo, i think it is more italic and gaul, it is my humble opinion, because romans were J2 like most of central italians. Makes sense actually that catalans have the peak in U152 because they have strong affinities with southern frenchs.

[Rocinante]

I think Z225 is native iberian? My theory as it’s far west Iberia

Seems to be that is unique for West Iberians (Galicians, Portugueses, Castillians and Asturleoneses). The basque clade would be M153 and the one in East Iberia would be M167.

Z225/Z229 is the best of all.

[Luso]

Seems to be that is unique for West Iberians (Galicians, Portugueses, Castillians and Asturleoneses). The basque clade would be M153 and the one in East Iberia would be M167.

Z225/Z229 is the best of all.

Yeah, and a lot of Cubanos have it which is interesting as a lot of cubanos were originally from Galicia... makes a lot of sense.

[Daos777]

Any E-V13?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Adamm]

Any E-V13?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes in Fes Morocco we found a person with E-V13:

https://i.imgur.com/awyGr0u.png

[Elias.99]

I wish I knew my grandfathers Y-DNA since you can't carry that from your mother but he's a berber from Errachidia so I bet he has a pure E-lineage

[Elias.99]

Any theories on why G seems to be more dominant in the ketama-region?

[Adamm]

Any theories why G seems to be more dominant in the ketama-region?

I have no idea, it seems both Ketama of Morocco and Algeria have a higher concentration of G haplogroup.

[Adamm]

I wish I knew my grandfathers Y-DNA since you can't carry that from your mother but he's a berber from Errachidia so I bet he has a pure E-lineage

If your mother has brothers (your uncles) you could test them, or you could test the nephews of yours who are paternally in line with your grandfather. That way you could still discover their lineage.

[Elias.99]

I have no idea, it seems both Ketama of Morocco and Algeria have a higher concentration of G haplogroup.

My theory is that the Ottoman Empire had many that settled in Algiers that then made their way into the Atlas mountains of Morocco.

[Adamm]

My theory is that the Ottoman Empire had many that settled in Algiers that then made their way into the Atlas mountains of Morocco.

No of course not, Kutema is an old tribe which was allied to the Fatimid Empire, they became shia and went from Morocco to North Algeria to Egypt. Ottoman Empire had no foothold in Morocco and there has never been a mass migration of Algerians into Morocco (except for Hilali Arabs but they are not considered Algerians and they are majority J1). Atlas Mountain is very isolated and majority there are E-M183.

[axel.aleman]

I am a Carrier of E-M78, i want to know More about my paternal haplogroup

[Rocinante]

I am a Carrier of E-M78, i want to know More about my paternal haplogroup

Tu haplogrupo pertenece a los E1b comun en Europa, ser M78 no necesariamente tiene que significar parentesco con los canarios, podria ser peninsular tranquilamente, hay muchos ibericos en Anthrogenica con tu haplogrupo. Usa esto y dime que te sale:

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

[axel.aleman]

Tu haplogrupo pertenece a los E1b comun en Europa, ser M78 no necesariamente tiene que significar parentesco con los canarios, podria ser peninsular tranquilamente, hay muchos ibericos en Anthrogenica con tu haplogrupo. Usa esto y dime que te sale:

https://cladefinder.yseq.net/

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=100773&d=1594670447

Interesante resultado

[samario]

I would like to see a thread like this one covering up mtDNA.

[Leto]

Is E-M183 only North African? Where is it found outside of NA in a significant amount? I just found a person with M183 but he is not North African at all.

[Adamm]

Is E-M183 only North African? Where is it found outside of NA in a significant amount? I just found a person with M183 but he is not North African at all.

E-M183 is majority North African and dominated by Berber groups, where is this person from that you mentioned? Some non-N Africans indeed carry this haplogroup but they are a minority.

[Leto]

E-M183 is majority North African and dominated by Berber groups, where is this person from that you mentioned? Some non-N Africans indeed carry this haplogroup but they are a minority.
He is Russian. Possibly distant Jewish, though I'm not sure and it should be 1/8 or less if anything.