Which was the genetic legacy of the Dacians in your opinion?

[andre]

In your opinion they were:

1) Thracian-like, so basically similar to modern day central-south italians

2) Slavic-like but with some celtic admix, so they were polish, slovakian-like

3) Extremely mixed, so a central european melting-pot (slovenian-like) but with iranic admixture too


If you know any genetic/Anthropological or other historycal documentation, please share.

[andre]

Transylvanian Romanian or Great Plain Hungarian, they are not like Thracians who are Balkan Turk, Gagauz, Albanian (3/4 Cumansky)
I think that it’s wrong, Cumansky is 3/4 gypsy and 1/4 Finnish (from Turku)

Ps. Could someone ban Cumansky again please?

[vbnetkhio]

In your opinion they were:

1) Thracian-like, so basically similar to modern day central-south italians

2) Slavic-like but with some celtic admix, so they were polish, slovakian-like

3) Extremely mixed, so a central european melting-pot (slovenian-like) but with iranic admixture too


If you know any genetic/Anthropological or other historycal documentation, please share.

1+2+3 but without the Slavic influence, and with some Germanic, one of the Moldovan ancient samples is 100% Scandinavian, probably a Bastarnae

[DStephenson]

10 great Empires created by Proto Balkan Albanians and not Germanic Yugoslaves

1 - Egypt

2 - Bantu

3 - Israeli British

4 - Timurid

5 - Mughal

6 - Macedinian

7 - Roman

8 - Ottoman

9 - Habsburg and Holy Roman

10 - USA

[DStephenson]

I think that it’s wrong, Cumansky is 3/4 gypsy and 1/4 Finnish (from Turku)

Ps. Could someone ban Cumansky again please?

I'm back pussy, back again, and again until you understand

[andre]

10 great Empires created by Proto Balkan Albanians and not Germanic Yugoslaves

1 - Egypt

2 - Bantu

3 - Israeli British

4 - Timurid

5 - Mughal

6 - Macedinian

7 - Roman

8 - Ottoman

9 - Habsburg and Holy Roman

10 - USA

Cumansky, it’s not funny

[DStephenson]

Cumansky, it’s not funny

Is not supposed to be pussy, we learning real history today

[andre]

I'm back pussy, back again, and again until you understand

Ahahahahahah

[Kaspias]

1+2+3 but without the Slavic influence, and with some Germanic, one of the Moldovan ancient samples is 100% Scandinavian, probably a Bastarnae

Have you noticed that BGR_MLBA is a pure Steppe Thracian?

25% Varna N + 25% BGR MLBA + 50% Mycenaean gives you a BGR_IA.

[vbnetkhio]

Have you noticed that BGR_MLBA is a pure Steppe Thracian?

25% Varna N + 25% BGR MLBA + 50% Mycenaean gives you a BGR_IA.

or maybe a Scythian who "got lost" in Thrace? because he is r1a-Z93, and MLBA is pretty late for a first generation steppe invader.

btw, a 100% steppe sample from bronze age Romania got added to G25 recently, have you noticed?

[Ion Basescul]

or maybe a Scythian who "got lost" in Thrace? because he is r1a-Z93, and MLBA is pretty late for a first generation steppe invader.

btw, a 100% steppe sample from bronze age Romania got added to G25 recently, have you noticed?

Not 100%, but already mixed locally or en route. And the sample seems to be quite noisy.



Target: Yamnaya_UKR:I2105
Distance: 2.2215% / 0.02221461
99.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.8 ROU_C


Target: Yamnaya_BGR:Bul4
Distance: 3.9460% / 0.03945978
58.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
42.0 ROU_C


Target: ROU_BA:S11955
Distance: 4.7762% / 0.04776213
89.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.2 ROU_C

Target: ROU_BA:S11955
Distance: 3.8264% / 0.03826366
88.2 Yamnaya_UKR
4.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.8 Indian
1.8 Levant_Natufian
1.6 Nganassan
0.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.0 GEO_CHG
0.0 IberomaurusianMAR_Taforalt
0.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.0 West_African
0.0 WHG

[Kaspias]

or maybe a Scythian who "got lost" in Thrace? because he is r1a-Z93, and MLBA is pretty late for a first generation steppe invader.

btw, a 100% steppe sample from bronze age Romania got added to G25 recently, have you noticed?

Lately, I made that subtraction thing to BGR_IA, and the first two population Steppe part got was Poltavka_o and BGR MLBA. Then I thought I can create a pseudo BGR_IA coordinate by using these proxies in order to crosscheck what I have found. BGR_N + BGR_MLBA gave the HRV_IA. Adding Mycen to this gave the BGR_IA.

So I don't know. It makes sense when taking into account Cimmerians, but just speculating.

I didn't check the Romanian sample yet, but thanks for reminding me, going to play with it.

[Ion Basescul]

All the evidence so far points to them being basically like Albanians, albeit these are not from the inner Carpathians, so that could be a wrong guess.

https://i.imgur.com/qV59LOe.png

A supporting thesis for that comes from the 2 Chernyakhov/Santana de Mures culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture) samples. This culture is supposed to be a mix of Gothic, Slavic, Sarmatian and Geto-Dacian elements. So one of the guys from central Ukraine looks more North shifted, while the other more Geto-Dacian shifted, towards the samples from above.

https://i.imgur.com/qIIfhlp.png

[Ion Basescul]

All the evidence so far points to them being basically like Albanians, albeit these are not from the inner Carpathians, so that could be a wrong guess.

https://i.imgur.com/qV59LOe.png

A supporting thesis for that comes from the 2 Chernyakhov/Santana de Mures culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture) samples. This culture is supposed to be a mix of Gothic, Slavic, Sarmatian and Geto-Dacian elements. So one of the guys from central Ukraine looks more North shifted, while the other more Geto-Dacian shifted, towards the samples from above.

https://i.imgur.com/qIIfhlp.png


<tbody>
Distance to:
scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp


3.88591045
Albanian_central_Albania


3.90220451
Greek_Eastern-Macedonia


3.92116054
Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East


4.96767551
Albanian_Albania


4.97490703
Vlach_Central-Macedonia


5.12555363
Albanian


5.26485517
Albanian_Kosovo


5.44478650
Albanian_north_Albania


5.51688206
Kosovo_Albanian


5.74342232
Greek_Peloponnese



</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp


6.87866266
Albanian_north_Albania


7.29365478
Vlach_Central-Macedonia


7.64342855
Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East


7.69003251
Albanian_Kosovo


7.71172484
Albanian_Albania


7.80235862
Albanian


7.81294439
Greek_Eastern-Macedonia


8.14415128
Albanian_central_Albania


8.32019831
Tuscany


8.68545336
Albanian_Macedonia



</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
scy300_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2253_ybp


2.66443240
Romagna


2.84590935
Umbria


3.32758170
Lazio


3.41820128
Tuscan


3.54005650
Marche


4.20923984
Tuscany


5.37927504
Emilia


6.40427982
Liguria


6.71983631
FrenchCorsica


6.97823760
Greek_Western-Thrace

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
scy305_Moldova_Scythian.SG_2254_ybp


6.55373176
Romagna


6.72301272
Tuscany


6.83202752
Umbria


6.85025547
Emilia


7.35024489
Tuscan


7.43365321
Liguria


7.43907252
Marche


7.49291666
Lazio


9.07155995
Greek_Western-Thrace


9.18930901
Veneto



</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp


7.05137575
Bulgarian_Southwest


7.09702050
Romania_Crisana


7.34225442
Montenegrin


7.54011936
Friuli-VG


7.61684974
Bulgarian_Central


7.76612516
Romania_Transylvania


7.77546783
Romanian_Oltenia


7.87687755
Romania_Moldavia_South


8.01071782
Bulgarian_Dupnitsa


8.13210920
Trentino



</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
DA198_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_


4.59447494
FrenchCorsica


7.32100403
Tuscany


7.99898744
Emilia


8.22912511
Tuscan


8.37496269
Liguria


8.74058350
Lombardy


8.74355763
Romagna


9.11825641
Lazio


9.48676973
Umbria


9.91585599
Marche



</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
UKR_MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_


5.00703505
Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East


5.02248942
Albanian_central_Albania


5.97580957
Greek_Eastern-Macedonia


6.53303146
Albanian_Albania


6.53342177
Greek_Peloponnese


6.83833313
Albanian


7.02896152
Greek_Thessaly


7.12562980
Vlach_Central-Macedonia


7.25505639
Kosovo_Albanian


7.26464498
GR_Macedonia



</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
UKR_MJ19_Chernyakhov_262_530_AD_


8.81268404
South_Polish


8.93260880
Czech


9.14154254
Sorb_Lusatia


9.59215304
German_east


9.69903308
Slovak


9.95078389
Croat_Croatia_Zagorje


10.20530744
Ukrainian_Lviv


10.63629057
Hungarian_Northern


10.97128981
Polish


11.18117167
Ukrainian

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
UKR_MJ37_Chernyakhov_2430386_AD_


5.95439078
Hungarian_Szekely


6.64493646
Hungarian_Transylvania


6.85799533
Bulgarian_Dupnitsa


6.95022844
Hungarian_Transdanubia


7.53925063
Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar


7.57394932
Hungarian_Budapest


7.89699169
Hungarian


7.92176748
Austrian


8.50463293
Hungarian_Csango


8.69421072
Croat_Croatia

</tbody>

[Ion Basescul]

<tbody>
Distance to:
DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp


7.05137575
Bulgarian_Southwest


7.09702050
Romania_Crisana


7.34225442
Montenegrin


7.54011936
Friuli-VG


7.61684974
Bulgarian_Central


7.76612516
Romania_Transylvania


7.77546783
Romanian_Oltenia


7.87687755
Romania_Moldavia_South


8.01071782
Bulgarian_Dupnitsa


8.13210920
Trentino

</tbody>



Maybe a coincidence, but DA195 is basically buried one step away from Crisana.

https://i.imgur.com/5tNrBCN.png

[Ion Basescul]

Maybe a coincidence, but DA195 is basically buried one step away from Crisana.

https://i.imgur.com/5tNrBCN.png

Target: Romania_Crisana
Distance: 4.3957% / 4.39567823 | ADC: 0.25x
58.6 DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp
32.6 AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
8.8 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
0.0 I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_ybp
0.0 AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_


Target: Romania_Crisana
Distance: 3.2837% / 3.28365501
63.2 AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
35.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
1.2 AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_
0.0 DA195_Hungary_Scythian.SG_2553_ybp
0.0 I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_ybp

[Ion Basescul]

I'm currently reading a book on this time period and am taking notes for my own entertainment. But I'm sharing them in case someone's interested. I'm translating from Romanian to English, so there could be some mistakes. The notes are written in chronological order. For people unaware of the archeological landscape, you should read the below, while also looking at the following maps:
https://indo-european.eu/maps/middle-bronze-age/
https://indo-european.eu/maps/late-bronze-age/
https://indo-european.eu/maps/iron-age/
https://indo-european.eu/maps/classical-antiquity/

Thracians

Language: Satem branch of IE, related to Balto-Slavic and Iranic families

Ceramic vases characteristic to the East-Balkanic area were found in the VII B2 level from Troy. Dated to around XII BC, they confirm the migration of people from the Balkans to the Near East.

By XII BC Thracians divide into ethnic groups and distinct tribes.

During LBA, in the region of the future Dacia, populations from the steppes, bearers of the Noua and Coslogeni cultures, settled in.
Economy of cattle breeding

Noua and Coslogeni are derived from Sabatinovka; evolved until IA.

Iron objects intra-Carpathic region - one of the oldest (axes, knives, daggers) in this region.
Metallurgy is supposed to have been introduced from South - Greece or East - Cimmerians via Armenia, Caucasus and the steppe.
IA objects show connections to Mycenaean Greece.
They were either traded or appeared due to individual mobility.

By X - VIII BC, region of modern Romanian territory was roughly divided in 2: Gava-Holihrady (grooved ceramics) - North, Babadag, Cozia-Brad - South (incised and printed ceramics)

Gava-Holihrady believed the ancestors of the Dacians, Babadag and Cozia-Brad -- Getae and Moesians.
Due to the uniformity of the materials and the forms of the manifestation.

Both influenced Basarabi culture, arose in VIII BC, combined both ceramic designs, created spiral and geometric motifs. Also shaped by Illyrian elements.
Pastoral type of economy, based on transhumanism.
Formed ties with North Pontic Greek colonies.

In Wallachia, Basarabi transitioned to the Ferigile-Barsesti culture.
Characterised by kurgan burials with incineration. Funerary inventory shows Scythian elements, as well as Illyrian and South Thracian.
These are considered the Getae.

Scythian groups in Transylvania represented by warriors who imposed their authority on local communities. Borrowings and influences happened on both sides.
Will disappear gradually during V BC.
Around middle of V BC, in the necropolis from Baita, Mures, Scythian burials transit to the incineration style, while the inventory retains the usual Scythian elements. Hence, their assimilation was happening in full swing by then.

Next century characterised by Illyrian influences.

Sigynnae lived to the West, in the basin of Tisa. Iranic Thracians of Scythian provenience, similar clothing to that of the Medes. Identified as the Szentes-Vekersug culture. Evolved until the arrival of the Celts in IV BC.

Near Carei-Satu Mare, local communities were not ruled by outsiders. Sanislau-Nir, characterised by necropoles with burials of urn incineration style, no Scythian artefacts.
Apart from usual vases worked by hand, 20-30% worked by the wheel. Likely transfer of know-how from North Pontic Greek colonies.

Getae V - III BC

Under authority of the Odrysian Kingdom in V BC - IV BC.
According to Tucidide, the Getae are neighbouring the Scythians with whom they share the same weapons and are all mounted archers.
After the death of Alexander the Great, the Thracian domain rebelled against the new diadochi - Lysimach. The Getae, who lived in Wallachia and Northeastern Bulgaria were led by Dromichaites.
Sboryanovo in Bulgaria, believed to be the Getic residence of Dromichaites. The architectural elements, together with the paintings suggest strong ties with the Greek world. Balkan_IA_5769 is 150km away from there, in Dzhulyunitsa.

Most common iconographic themes: men riding horses, hunting scenes, men and women riding war chariots, sacrifices, winged feminine divinities, hierogamy, animal fights, animal processing, fantasy animals, mythical heroes (Herakles).

Kurgans started to disappear around III BC. The phenomenon indicates the dissolution of the aristocracy, determined by societal transformation.
As the political power of the aristocracy weakened, Celts and Bastarnae managed to settle in the region.

Thracian Dark Ages, III - II BC
In this period, the local aristocracy changed, both ethnically and archeologically.

Kurgans disappeared and where replaced by incineration style tumulus burials, which contained the remains that were placed in urns, armory and weaponry representative of local types (sica, shields of type umbo) and sometimes also Celtic. This phenomenon is called the Padea-Panaghiurski Kolonii group.
Characteristic for Southern Romania, this group expanded to Transylvania and Southern Moldova. They gave birth to the Dacian kingdom under Burebista.

Dacia

During Burebista

The migration from the South towards Transylvania happened due to both strategic and economic reasons.
Salt exploitation in Mures valley; open to distribution both to the West and South.

The aristocracy migrated together with people from Wallachia. Number of rural settlements doubled in this period. Also, the first raised settlements appeared, which are characteristic of the flourishing period of the Dacian civilisation.

[Mingle]

All the evidence so far points to them being basically like Albanians, albeit these are not from the inner Carpathians, so that could be a wrong guess.

https://i.imgur.com/qV59LOe.png

A supporting thesis for that comes from the 2 Chernyakhov/Santana de Mures culture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture) samples. This culture is supposed to be a mix of Gothic, Slavic, Sarmatian and Geto-Dacian elements. So one of the guys from central Ukraine looks more North shifted, while the other more Geto-Dacian shifted, towards the samples from above.

https://i.imgur.com/qIIfhlp.png

How do we know these samples are Scythians for sure and not some locals?

[Ion Basescul]

How do we know these samples are Scythians for sure and not some locals?

They are locals or Scythians mixed with locals. Actual Scythians don't score like that. Those who labelled them didn't bother researching that, so they put everyone in the Scythian category, when they are clearly very different.