Swiss - an ethnicity?

[Albion]

Are the Swiss an ethnicity or simply a group of the ethnicities of surrounding nations (French, German, Italian, with Romanch only in Switzerland)?

So are the French-speaking Swiss of Romandie French or Swiss, and what is the denonym? Romandians?
What of the Swiss Germans? Just Germans or Allemanics?

A ethnicity speaking many different native languages seems quite strange in the traditional sense, usually an ethnicity speaks one native language and usually some foreign ones too, like the Welsh speak Welsh as natives and English which was imposed somewhat.

Switzerland's terrain could have made it quite isolated for large scale movements of people in the past which probably accounts for how French survived in Romandie, Romanch in the high mountains, Italian in the South and Allemanic German amongst the Swiss Germans.

So who are the Swiss? Who do they see themselves as? The same as the surrounding nations, just a different country or as a unique, mutlilingual ethnicity.
Ethnicity or a group of ethnicities?

(If there's any Swiss on here, their opinion obviously counts for a lot)

[The Lawspeaker]

The Swiss have a very complicated history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland#Early_history) but they are no Germans, no Italians, no French (and they would probably take offense if they were called that). They are Swiss (http://www.myswissalps.com/switzerland/switzerland-history.asp?lang=DU). The thing is that eventhough they speak the languages they are the decendants of the Alamanni (in the North), the Burgundians (the "French"- speaking area), Helvetised/ Romans and other tribes. They are no Italians, French, Germans or anything else but Swiss.

[Agrippa]

The Swiss are ethnic groups on their own insofar, as those are special groups inside of the mentioned larger ethnic groups.

For example the Swiss Germans in particular are a special branche of the South Western German, Alemannic ethnolinguistic group. Swabians are therefore closer to the German Swiss, than to Bavarians-Austrians (exception is Vorarlberg) even, yet alone other, for example Northern Germans.

So obviously, they are Germans, but in a specific ethnolinguistic branch of Germans with a development on their own.

Then there are Raetoromans, which exist in Italy and Austria too. Those are a group on their own as well.

Politically, that is a different question, but a "Swiss ethnicity" is impossible. All the three main components are BY ALL reasonable definitions, based on ethnicity, ethnolinguistic affinities, closer to the neighbouring main groups, than to each other - even genetically-racially, linguistically and historically anyway, should be clear.

Also, some parts of Switzerland came under the Swiss-German control, those who really made up the country, just rather recently if looking at the historical developments.

[memobekes]

Agrippa, is it true that most German-speaking Swiss are Protestants, as opposed to the Tyrolese and Bavarians?

[Agrippa]

Agrippa, is it true that most German-speaking Swiss are Protestants, as opposed to the Tyrolese and Bavarians?

Well, a large portion of the Swiss is protestant, but so are many South Western Germans, to which they are related.

But not all. Actually they fought each other for quite some time...

Religious map:
http://www.gacheson.org/images/1/16/Swiss_Map_Religion.jpg

Ethnolinguistic map:
http://www.aiep.am/images/switzerland_map_lang.gif

Germans expanded and Germanicised many Raetoroman areas by the way.

But as you can see, there are German Catholics and Protestants in Switzerland.

The areas are quite mixed often.

[memobekes]

Interesting maps, thanks for uploading those :)

It's funny because I once read that Geneva was also historically a Protestant stronghold but has since evened out between the before-mentioned and Catholics. I wonder why this demographic shift occurred? Internal immigration?

Also the religious map shows us that the Italian-speaking Swiss are overwhelmingly Catholic in sect. But the French who are also Catholics in France and Belgium are rather not so homogeneous in Western Switzerland. Perhaps atheism has taken over, as the map has a lot of regions, specially in the border areas, that are mixed with no denomination in the clear majority.

It seems as though most pious Swiss (barring the Italian area) are found in the internal/central parts. Some interesting facts to look at, indeed.

[Ouistreham]

Agrippa, is it true that most German-speaking Swiss are Protestants, as opposed to the Tyrolese and Bavarians?

Switzerland is majority Catholic by about 40% vs 1/3 of Protestants, but the backbone of the country is clearly Protestant (Calvinist of the French speaking side, Zwingli Evangelist on the German speaking side). Catholics are proportionally more in the German part, and Italian Switzerland is entirely Catholic.

Modern Switzerland is the product of a short civil war, the so-called Sonderbund War, that took place in 1847 and opposed a federation of French and German Protestant cantons to a confederation of conservative Catholic cantons (German, or bilingual like Fribourg or Wallis). The Protestant side rapidly won under leading of general Guillaume-Henri Dufour (from Geneva).

Note that the "Urkantone", the historical core of Switzerland (Uri, Schwyz and Unterwald cantons), were on the losing (Catholic) side. Therefore, this Sonderbund Secession War was really the craddle of modern Switzerland.

Canton Ticino (Italian) wasn't involved in that struggle. Actually, Ticino really entered Swiss life later in the 20th century.

[Agrippa]

The Italian part could be called a colony of the Swiss core actually - the Swiss core was, for a certain period of time, not that peaceful and expanded over regions, which didn't wanted to become part of it...

Many regions and "citizens", or better inhabitants, had no rights for quite some time and were under the rule of the privileged parts and social strata of the Swiss.

[memobekes]

Was Geneva a part of this Protestant "backbone"? I believe the Catholics have more numbers there now. Can someone confirm?

[supergiovane]

I do consider the romansh as italians because their language is basically a cisalpine dialect with some different features like sygmatic plural and palatalization of occlusive consonants (chaval for caval, ciasa for casa etc.).

[Marino]

The maps seemed intruiguing to me at first sight as well, taking into account that Geneva (Calvinism) respectively Zurich (Zwinglianism) were not only strongholds but the very birthplaces of, at least in the case of Calvinism, quite radical forms of protestantism. However, these maps might prove true nowadays, maybe even due to Islamic immigration.



But the French who are also Catholics in France and Belgium are rather not so homogeneous in Western Switzerland. Perhaps atheism has taken over, as the map has a lot of regions, specially in the border areas, that are mixed with no denomination in the clear majority.


Regarding the large canton of Vaud (German: Waadt), the reason is, that its territory was until 1798 (invasion of Napoleon ---> Helvetic Republic) under the rule of Berne, which itself is - except the Jura territorries - almost exclusively protestant (--> cuius regio, eius religio), and, interestingly, also the most Nordoid canton of the whole confederation according to renowned anthropologists.

As federalism and federalist attitudes are still very strong in Switzerland, there is according to my personal experience only a minority of Swiss who call themselves "Swiss" in the first place. First and foremost, a "real" (what is a "real" Swiss nowadays anyway?) Swiss is from Zurich or Basel, he is Vaudois, Bernese, Lucernese etc., that's the basic thing. "Switzerland" however is an abstraction in the intuitive perception of most people, a so called "Willensnation", existing by the sheer will of its citizens, i.e. nothing organic but quite an artificial conglomerate of in various respects (language, religion, history, culture) very heterogenous elements. To call oneself "Swiss" in the first place has, at least among city dwellers, something "unsexy", a rural, unprogressive, freshwater kind of undertone. On the other hand, one is mostly some kind of "proud" to be from a certain canton, a certain (larger) city.

What a Swiss will never (or almost never) do nowadays (it was different in the ancient régime) is to call himself "Italian", "French" or - most absurde - "German". It's not that these nations are generally not liked among the group of Swiss speaking the language of the respective nation, but a Swiss still considers himself to be something different than a member of these three bigger nations. This is especially true for the German speaking Swiss: Even if they are not generally hostile to Germans, the latter are seen as a culturally different group with a different language, different way of talking and - last but not least - behaving by the German speaking Swiss. Due to the fact that the country has four language groups, there is an increased sensitivity for difference and a greater "respect", carefulness in everyday contact: The other person could be quite different from me in any respect yet unknown to me, so I have to be cautious in order not to snub him. On the other hand, the German in every day life assumes that his counterpart is in essence like himself. Therefore, he is more assertive, direct, loud and outspoken, something occasionally misunderstood by the (German speaking) Swiss as arrogance and rudeness.

[memobekes]

This is especially true for the German speaking Swiss: Even if they are not generally hostile to Germans, the latter are seen as a culturally different group with a different language, different way of talking and - most important - behaving by the German speaking Swiss.
Thank you for your detailed answer.
I want to ask, is Swiss German a foreign language in the ears of most speakers from Germany?

[Marino]

Thank you for your detailed answer.
I want to ask, is Swiss German a foreign language in the ears of most speakers from Germany?

Well, "Swiss German" is not a language actually, as it does not really exist. What exists are certain dialects, i.e. "Zurichese, Basilese, Bernese, Lucernese, St. Gallese" etc. These are allemanic dialects which are different in various respects from each other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alemannic_German

Many Southern Germans, who are themselves of Alemannic origin, understand at least some of the Swiss dialects. Swabians for example have a dialect quite similar to the Northeastern/utmost Northern Swiss (St. Gallen, Thurgovia, Schaffhausen) actually. The farther North you go, the less people understand them. A Northern German understands virtually nothing, whereas Austrians for instance might even confound a Swiss german dialect with Dutch. Germans like to make fun about the Swiss because of their "funny" dialect on one hand and their way (generally slower, less dashing and coarser) to speak high German on the other hand.

[memobekes]

@Marino

This clip would be interesting to listen to. It contrasts the German spoken by German and Swiss guests on a talk programme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prew3Zi-qIQ

The man with the glasses at 0:51 speaks in a distinctive Swiss German accent. I don't think many Germans from Germany would understand him, am I right?

[Marino]

The man with the glasses at 0:51 speaks in a distinctive Swiss German accent.

:eek:No, not at all. He is a "romand", a French speaking Swiss from a French speaking canton. In the video, he is speaking high German ("Hochdeutsch" or, as a Swiss might say, "Schriftsprache") with a French accent. :) So, Germans will understand him.

The French speaking Swiss learn high German at school. They generally only speak high German and don't understand the Swiss German dialects, except if they are "bilingue" (have been raised bilingually and therefore speak French as well as a Swiss German dialect).

However, there are myriads of weird mixtures between French and Swiss German dialects, all of which sound extremely funny for the native speaker.

[Agrippa]

Typical for such branches which split off - to a certain degree - from the main branch, is, that they might make a big deal about their "independence" inside of their larger group, so if a Swiss meets a German or Austrian in particular.

But in the end, they know quite well whose closest related to them and appreciate certain similarities, especially in the face of more foreign elements and under pressure.

Yet, one thing is clear, while the Swiss Germans are now more independent from greater German for hundreds of years, the 2nd World War made it even less fashionable and desirable being German.

The same happened, just in a much shorter period of time and more radical way, in Austria.

Anyway, ethnically, they are Germans, politically and identity otherwise, they are Swiss Germans or Swiss, but thats just a branch of the greater German ethnolinguistic group.

[_______]

switzerland is barely a country

[The Lawspeaker]

switzerland is barely a country
Ever been there ? I doubt it.

[Peyrol]

Are the Swiss an ethnicity or simply a group of the ethnicities of surrounding nations (French, German, Italian, with Romanch only in Switzerland)?

So are the French-speaking Swiss of Romandie French or Swiss, and what is the denonym? Romandians?
What of the Swiss Germans? Just Germans or Allemanics?

A ethnicity speaking many different native languages seems quite strange in the traditional sense, usually an ethnicity speaks one native language and usually some foreign ones too, like the Welsh speak Welsh as natives and English which was imposed somewhat.

Switzerland's terrain could have made it quite isolated for large scale movements of people in the past which probably accounts for how French survived in Romandie, Romanch in the high mountains, Italian in the South and Allemanic German amongst the Swiss Germans.

So who are the Swiss? Who do they see themselves as? The same as the surrounding nations, just a different country or as a unique, mutlilingual ethnicity.
Ethnicity or a group of ethnicities?

(If there's any Swiss on here, their opinion obviously counts for a lot)

Italian-swiss are virtually identical to the lombards, so i can definitely say that aren't a different ethnicity from us.

I can't talk about the others ethnic groups.

[_______]

Ever been there ? I doubt it.


to zurich and geneva, yes. but i was being a dick. hard to respect any nation without its own language :D

[Ouistreham]

switzerland is barely a country

i was being a dick. hard to respect any nation without its own language :D
You should understand (in case you could) that Switzerland is not Belgium. It's just the opposite.

Belgium in almost an ethnicity, but not at all a nation.
Switzerland is not an ethnicity, but really a nation.

When you travel from Amsterdam to Paris, there is no clear cut ethnic boundary, all Belgians share common mindset and way of life, drink the same kind of beers. On both sides of both borders to France and to the Netherlands people are basically the same, there's nowhere any dramatic change in popular traditions, in vernacular architecture or in social habits. Except that beyond a certain line people suddenly chat in another language than their neighbours.

Switzerland is all different. The French speaking Swiss are quite French in mentality and traditions, wilst their German speaking countrymen are über-Germanic in all aspects of their lives. But both groups have a very strong commitment to their country, their flag, their history — and their complex of superiority over the outer world.

Switzerland is a unique case of peaceful bilinguism, possibly because both main national languages have an equal weight. The only trouble is a problem of asymmetrical intelligibility: the French Swiss speak a very clean standard French, but the High German they learn at school is of little help to grasp what their Eastern countrymen say.

[_______]

You should understand (in case you could) that Switzerland is not Belgium. It's just the opposite.

Belgium in almost an ethnicity, but not at all a nation.
Switzerland is not an ethnicity, but really a nation.

When you travel from Amsterdam to Paris, there is no clear cut ethnic boundary, all Belgians share common mindset and way of life, drink the same kind of beers. On both sides of both borders to France and to the Netherlands people are basically the same, there's nowhere any dramatic change in popular traditions, in vernacular architecture or in social habits. Except that beyond a certain line people suddenly chat in another language than their neighbours.

Switzerland is all different. The French speaking Swiss are quite French in mentality and traditions, wilst their German speaking countrymen are über-Germanic in all aspects of their lives. But both groups have a very strong commitment to their country, their flag, their history — and their complex of superiority over the outer world.Switzerland is a unique case of peaceful bilinguism, possibly because both main national languages have an equal weight. The only trouble is a problem of asymmetrical intelligibility: the French Swiss speak a very clean standard French, but the High German they learn at school is of little help to grasp what their Eastern countrymen say.

this is what i was mocking. i find it ironic.

[sioned]

Despite the Swiss speak French, german, Italian, Rhaetoromance, i however believe the Swiss hav a own distinctive identity, Swiss patriotism and Swiss Nationalism. Perhaps because the Swiss confederation was created by the Swiss themselves and not artificial constructions like belgium, forced by the worldpowers.

[Adalrich]

You should understand (in case you could) that Switzerland is not Belgium. It's just the opposite.

Belgium in almost an ethnicity, but not at all a nation.
Switzerland is not an ethnicity, but really a nation.


Exactly correct. Switzerland's nationhood is seen best in the mythos of Eidgenossenschaft in the national character. It's a rich history that stretches back eight hundred years at least, from the Rütlischwur onward.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Swiss_R%C3%BCtlischwur.jpg

It's a nation that has stood the test of time, maintained independence and become the centre rock of middle Europe. But has that dissolved the ethnicities? Of course not. It is a piece of symbolism to claim a 'Swiss' ethnicity, what's actually meant is an identity and identification with the binding Eidgenossenschaft.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Romansh = swiss ethnicity.

Others in switzerland = others in switzerland.

[Sideritis]

Switzerland is a prime example that money can glue things with each-other. :D

[Journeyman26]

Was Geneva a part of this Protestant "backbone"? I believe the Catholics have more numbers there now. Can someone confirm?

It was Catholic long before Protestantism even existed. Switzerland was nestled between three of the four great Catholic regions of Europe. France to the west, the duchies/kingdoms of Italy to the South and Hapsburg Austria to the East. The Swiss Guard to this day guard the Vatican.