R1a-Z93 > Z2125 (Lots of new samples added to the tree)

[Kyp]

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2125/

Lots of samples from Russia,Central Asia & South Central Asia have been added. Aswell as Caucasus and Hungary.

The ones from Russia are mainly from Bashkir and Tatars. Hungarians seem to share this clade.

In Caucasus there have been Chechens, Cherkess and Kabardians/Balkars samples added. Aswell as Adygheans and other Caucasus groups.

Also lots of new samples from Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Turkmenistan.

[Kaspias]

These are from the recent Arpad study.


muh iranic hungarians

https://scontent.fyei1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/110315423_10158465946879297_2707571489617277740_o. jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=J6fJ4VzVPkIAX_fKNFI&_nc_ht=scontent.fyei1-1.fna&oh=aaf0c6cc8b26742c608b8066e436650c&oe=5F45EE10

[Sora]

It's highest also in Kyrgyz people(who are 66% Mongoloid on average), right?

[Kyp]

It's highest also in Kyrgyz people(who are 66% Mongoloid on average), right?

yes but also in Pashtuns and Pamiris I think

[Sora]

yes but also in Pashtuns and Pamiris I think

I guess ancient Turkics were mainly mix of R1a/R1b Steppe men and Mongoloid(A,C,D,G) women. Because most of Gokturk, Hun, Xiongnu, Karluk & Kipchak samples have Caucasoid ydna & Mongoloid mtdna. Of course there are samples who had Mongoloid ydna & Caucasoid mtdna but they were rarer than vice versa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Genetics

https://turkishdnaproject.com/orta-cag-turkleri-ve-diger-avrasya-populasyonlarinin-genetik-yapisi-mezolitikten-orta-caga/

[Leto]

yes but also in Pashtuns and Pamiris I think
Not in Tajiks. Tajiks are not as heavily R1a as Pashtuns. Afghan Tajiks are 25-30% R1a, I believe.

[Leto]

It's highest also in Kyrgyz people(who are 66% Mongoloid on average), right?
Yes, it's 45-65% in them (R1a).

One study from Di Cristofaro et al. (2013) reported the results of analysis of the Y-DNA of 132 Kyrgyz individuals from Kyrgyzstan (40 from Central Kyrgyzstan, 37 from Northwest Kyrgyzstan, 35 from East Kyrgyzstan, and 20 from Southwest Kyrgyzstan), finding that they belonged to haplogroup R (78/132 = 59.1%, including 72/132 = 54.5% R1a-M198/M17, 3/132 = 2.3% R1b-L23(xU106, S116, U152), 2/132 = 1.5% R1b-M478/M73, and 1/132 = 0.76% R-M207(xR1a-SRY1532.2, R1b-M343, R2-M479)), haplogroup C2-M217 (26/132 = 19.7%, including 11/132 = 8.3% C-M401, 7/132 = 5.3% C-M532(xM86, M504, M546, M401), 7/132 = 5.3% C-M86, and 1/132 = 0.76% C-M386/PK2(xM407, M532)), haplogroup O (8/132 = 6.1%, including 5/132 = 3.8% O-M134(xM117), 2/132 = 1.5% O-M122(xKL2, P201), and 1/132 = 0.76% O-M95), haplogroup J (7/132 = 5.3%, including 2/132 = 1.5% J2a-P55(xM530, M322, M67), 1/132 = 0.76% J2a-M410(xP55), 1/132 = 0.76% J2a-M67(xM92), 1/132 = 0.76% J2b-M241, 1/132 = 0.76% J1-Page8, and 1/132 = 0.76% J1-M267(xPage8, short DYS388)), haplogroup N (6/132 = 4.5%, including 5/132 = 3.8% N-M231(xP43, Tat) and 1/132 = 0.76% N-P43), haplogroup G (2/132 = 1.5%, including 1/132 = 0.76% G2a-P16 and 1/132 = 0.76% G2a-P303), haplogroup L (2/132 = 1.5%, including 1/132 = 0.76% L-M76 and 1/132 = 0.76% L-M357), haplogroup E-M81 (1/132 = 0.76%), haplogroup H-M82 (1/132 = 0.76%), and haplogroup Q-M346 (1/132 = 0.76%).


Depending on the geographical location of samples, West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroup lineages make up 27% to 42.6% in the Kyrgyz.[37] with Haplogroup mtDNA H being the most predominant marker at 21.3% among the Kyrgyz. The majority of Kyrgyz belong to East Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups, with Haplogroup mtDNA D being the most frequent lineage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrgyz_people#Genetics

[Bender1999]

I guess ancient Turkics were mainly mix of R1a/R1b Steppe men and Mongoloid(A,C,D,G) women. Because most of Gokturk, Hun, Xiongnu, Karluk & Kipchak samples have Caucasoid ydna & Mongoloid mtdna. Of course there are samples who had Mongoloid ydna & Caucasoid mtdna but they were rarer than vice versa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Genetics

https://turkishdnaproject.com/orta-cag-turkleri-ve-diger-avrasya-populasyonlarinin-genetik-yapisi-mezolitikten-orta-caga/

Do you mean with caucasoid men just ydna or also the autosomal dna?

[Sora]

Do you mean with caucasoid men just ydna or also the autosomal dna?

Just ydna. In autosomal dna, it's more complicated. Ancient Turkic peoples were between 25%-60% Mongoloid and the rest being mainly Caucasoid.

[Bender1999]

Just ydna. In autosomal dna, it's more complicated. Ancient Turkic peoples were between 25%-60% Mongoloid and the rest being mainly Caucasoid.

Agree with that.

Btw i read Ottomans and Göktürks belonged also to this haplogroup. I doubt about Gökturks not because it is unrealistic but not enough evidences. It looks like every noble dynasty had this haplogroup haha.

[Turul Karom]

These are from the recent Arpad study.


muh iranic hungarians

https://scontent.fyei1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/110315423_10158465946879297_2707571489617277740_o. jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=J6fJ4VzVPkIAX_fKNFI&_nc_ht=scontent.fyei1-1.fna&oh=aaf0c6cc8b26742c608b8066e436650c&oe=5F45EE10

I wish I could thumb this up ten times.

[gixajo]

https://scontent.fyei1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/110315423_10158465946879297_2707571489617277740_o. jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=J6fJ4VzVPkIAX_fKNFI&_nc_ht=scontent.fyei1-1.fna&oh=aaf0c6cc8b26742c608b8066e436650c&oe=5F45EE10

My cousins.

[Pine]

0 mention of the basal Saudi of course.

[gixajo]

0 mention of the basal Saudi of course.

0 mentions where? In Ytree?

Are usually Saudis Z2125?

[Pine]

0 mentions where? In Ytree?

Are usually Saudis Z2125?

There are plenty of Arab Z2125

[Kyp]

Z2125 heatmap:

https://i.imgur.com/6fMr26m.jpg

[Leto]

No longer relevant, I guess.

[Kyp]

No longer relevant, I guess.

yseq free tool apparently gives lots of false positives for z-2125

[Leto]

yseq free tool apparently gives lots of false positives for z-2125
Is Z2125 significantly different from Z2122? Sounds almost the same ;)

[Kyp]

Is Z2125 significantly different from Z2122? Sounds almost the same ;)

no idea.. I know nothing about Z2122

[Illyrius]

I guess ancient Turkics were mainly mix of R1a/R1b Steppe men and Mongoloid(A,C,D,G) women. Because most of Gokturk, Hun, Xiongnu, Karluk & Kipchak samples have Caucasoid ydna & Mongoloid mtdna. Of course there are samples who had Mongoloid ydna & Caucasoid mtdna but they were rarer than vice versa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu#Genetics

https://turkishdnaproject.com/orta-cag-turkleri-ve-diger-avrasya-populasyonlarinin-genetik-yapisi-mezolitikten-orta-caga/

Some say that the gokturks were blond and red haired people. Is that true?

[Illyrius]

These are from the recent Arpad study.


muh iranic hungarians

https://scontent.fyei1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/110315423_10158465946879297_2707571489617277740_o. jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_sid=1480c5&_nc_ohc=J6fJ4VzVPkIAX_fKNFI&_nc_ht=scontent.fyei1-1.fna&oh=aaf0c6cc8b26742c608b8066e436650c&oe=5F45EE10

Everyone knows R1a Z93 is a proto Albanian marker

[Arhat]

There are plenty of Arab Z2125

R1a-Z93 is around 1-3% among Arabs and only higher in the Gulf region where arabs are very mixed. On Yfull Arabs are overrepresentef so no there is not much Arab Z2125

[Rethel]

Some say that the gokturks were blond and red haired people. Is that true?

At least Kirgizes were gingers.
It is obviously not the original altaic trait, but whatever the original bearers of turcic languages were, there weret white, and their medieval whiteness comes from assimilated scythian and tocharian peoples, which even today contain 1/3 of them. It is also worthy of reminding that the first khaganates were created, ruled and adminitrated by Iranians, and that chief clans in majority of turcic tribes are of IE Iranian provenance includeing Arpads, Ashinas and postJochi (from Merkaite chieftain) khans.

[Chelubey]

It is also worthy of reminding that the first khaganates were created, ruled and adminitrated by Iranians, and that chief clans in majority of turcic tribes are of IE Iranian provenance includeing Arpads, Ashinas and postJochi (from Merkaite chieftain) khans.

Stop spreading marginal concepts,pls.

[Chelubey]

...

[Rethel]

Stop spreading marginal concepts,pls.

What is wrong in what I said?

[Chelubey]

What is wrong in what I said?

The ancient Turks did not know "Ashina" dynasty/clan (this is a Chinese transcription). We do not know the original sound of this word and what it means.
Possibly this word is contained in the title of the Bulgarian king https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Asen_I_of_Bulgaria
Then


Asen came from a Turkic word meaning "sound, safe, healthy"

There is no data that Arpad spoke Iranic language and so on.

[Mejgusu]

Some say that the gokturks were blond and red haired people. Is that true?

No, but one of the first Chinese sources about Turks claimed there are tribes with red hairs.

[Rethel]

The ancient Turks did not know "Ashina" dynasty/clan (this is a Chinese transcription). We do not know the original sound of this word and what it means.

:picard2:

Who cares how it was pronounced. My post which you negated, wasn't about this.



There is no data that Arpad spoke Iranic language and so on.

Did I say so? You are contradicting a non existing statement of mine.

[Rethel]

No, but one of the first Chinese sources about Turks claimed there are tribes with red hairs.

There is a theory which explains not only the ethnonym "Turk" as IE word, but also suggests,
that name of Turks was translated to altaic people. It is very possible from couple of reasns:

1. There were some iranic tribes with similar name.
2. There can be made an IE etymology.
3. Iranian myth says, that Turan was brother of Sauromat and Iran.
4. First turkic states were ruled by Ind-Ir khans.
5. Ind-Ir, sogdian, language was a diplomatic, official and administrative language in the kaganates.
6. Turks at the beginning in Europe were called Scythians.
7. Some Indo-Scythian subtribe was called Turk-like (if I remember correctly).

So, it is possible, that original Turks with whom Chinese had contact, were Indoeuropeans so they were white.
Kirgizes are the best example of that - even today in huge majority R1s and originaly white gingers...

[Mejgusu]

There is a theory which explain not only the ethnonym "Turk" as IE word, but also suggests,
that name of Turks was translated to altaic people. It is very possible from couple of reasns:

1. There were some iranic tribes with similar name.
2. There can be made an IE etymology.
3. Iranian myth says, that Turan was brother of Sarmat and Iran.
4. First turkic states were ruled by IndIr khans.
5. Ind-Ir, sogdian, alnguage was a diplomatic, official and administrative language.

So, it is possible, that original Turks with whom Chinese had contact, were Indoeuropeans so they were white.
Kirgizes are the best example of that - even today in huge majority R1s and originaly white gingers...

Turks are not IEs, there are some theories that the term Turk came from Iranic or Chinese nothing more. Your obsession with this nonsense is ridiculous.

[Rethel]

Turks are not IEs

Where I wrote, that they are? :picard2:


there are some theories that the term Turk came from Iranic

I wrote exactly this. Can you read before you comment?

[Mejgusu]

So, it is possible, that original Turks with whom Chinese had contact, were Indoeuropeans so they were white.
Kirgizes are the best example of that - even today in huge majority R1s and originaly white gingers...

.....

[Rethel]

.....

Do you know the difference, between were and are and word possible?

If I write, that original Ruses were (even for sure) Swedes, it doesn't mean, that Russians are Swedes. Do you see a difference?

[Chelubey]

3. Iranian myth says, that Turan was brother of Sauromat and Iran.

The Avesta also lists the Aryan territories, the northernmost of which is Sogdiana(and,possibly,Khorezm -the border is unknown there). Turan and Sarmatians are not included in the Aryan territories / ethnic groups.


4. First turkic states were ruled by Ind-Ir khans.

No data.


7. Some Indo-Scythian subtribe was called Turk-like (if I remember correctly).

Turushka ( possibly *tur/turuk, shka-affix) - this is how the Indo-Scythians, Kushans, and Turks were called in the ancient Idian tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turushka

[Rethel]

The Avesta also lists the Aryan territories, the northernmost of which is Sogdiana(and,possibly,Khorezm -the border is unknown there). Turan and Sarmatians are not included in the Aryan territories / ethnic groups.

You negate something what I didn't say. What is sense of that?


No data.

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks

"According to Charles Holcombe, the early Turk population was rather heterogeneous and many of the names of Türk rulers, including the two founding members, are not even Turkic.[37] This is supported by evidence from the Orkhon inscriptions, which include several non-Turkic lexemes, possibly representing Uralic or Yeniseian words.[38][39] Peter Benjamin Golden points out that the khaghans of the Turkic Khaganate, the Ashina, who were of an undetermined ethnic origin, adopted Iranian and Tokharian (or non-Altaic) titles, he also adds that this hypothesis assumes that they were not themselves lranian or Tokharian in speech.[40] German Turkologist W.-E. Scharlipp points out that many common terms in Turkic are Iranian in origin.[41] Whatever language the Ashina may have spoken originally, they and those they ruled would all speak Turkic, in a variety of dialects, and create, in a broadly defined sense, a common culture.[40][42]"

"Über die Ethnogenese dieses Stammes ist viel gerätselt worden. Auffallend ist, dass viele zentrale Begriffe iranischen Ursprungs sind. Dies betrifft fast alle Titel (...). Einige Gelehrte wollen auch die Eigenbezeichnung türk auf einen iranischen Ursprung zurückführen und ihn mit dem Wort "Turan", der persischen Bezeichnung für das Land jeneseits des Oxus, in Verbindung bringen.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_tribe

"Several researchers, including Peter B. Golden,[29] H. W. Haussig,[30] S. G. Klyashtorny,[31][32] Carter V. Findley,[33] D. G. Savinov,[34] S. P. Guschin,[35] and András Róna-Tas[36] have posited that the term Ashina is from the Iranian Saka or possibly from the Indo-Aryan Wusun.[37] They have put forward this version[clarification needed] of the following arguments: Carter Vaughin Findley assumes that the name "Ashina" comes from one of the Saka languages of central Asia and means "blue" (gök in Turkic). The color is identified with the east, so that Göktürk, another name for the Turkic empire, meant the "Turks of the East".[38] This idea is seconded by the Hungarian researcher András Róna-Tas, who finds it plausible "that we are dealing with a royal family and clan of Saka origin".[39] "The term bori, used to identify the ruler's retinue as 'wolves', probably also derived from one of the Iranian languages" proposes Findley. H. W. Haussig and S. G. Kljyashtorny suggest an association between the name and the compound "kindred of Ashin" ahşaẽna (in Old Persian). This is so even in East Turkestan; then the desired form would be in the Sogdian 'xs' yn' k (-әhšēnē) "blue, dark"; Khotan-Saka (Brahmi) āşşeiņa (-āşşena) "blue", where a long -ā- emerged as development ahş-> āşş-; in Tocharian A āśna- "blue, dark" (from Khotan-Saka and Sogdian)."



Turushka ( possibly *tur/turuk, shka-affix) - this is how the Indo-Scythians, Kushans, and Turks were called in the ancient Idian tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turushka

This is what I had in mind.
Scythians and Kushans were before Turks, so, it is also interesting.

Also some "Turcae" lived in first century around Azov Sea, and they were clearly Scythian.

[Zoro]

You negate something what I didn't say. What is sense of that?



For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks

["Ashina" comes from one of the Saka languages of central Asia and means "blue" (gök in Turkic). The color is identified with the east, so that Göktürk, another name for the Turkic empire, meant the "Turks of the East".[38]-; in Tocharian A āśna- "blue, dark" (from Khotan-Saka and Sogdian)[/B]."[/I]


This is what I had in mind.
Scythians and Kushans were before Turks, so, it is also interesting.

Also some "Turcae" lived in first century around Azov Sea, and they were clearly Scythian.

Interesting factoid:

Shin = blue in Kurdish and Pashto also. :) In persian blue is abi or nili

[Chelubey]

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrks

"According to Charles Holcombe, the early Turk population was rather heterogeneous and many of the names of Türk rulers, including the two founding members, are not even Turkic.[37] This is supported by evidence from the Orkhon inscriptions, which include several non-Turkic lexemes, possibly representing Uralic or Yeniseian words.[38][39] Peter Benjamin Golden points out that the khaghans of the Turkic Khaganate, the Ashina, who were of an undetermined ethnic origin, adopted Iranian and Tokharian (or non-Altaic) titles, he also adds that this hypothesis assumes that they were not themselves lranian or Tokharian in speech.[40] German Turkologist W.-E. Scharlipp points out that many common terms in Turkic are Iranian in origin.[41] Whatever language the Ashina may have spoken originally, they and those they ruled would all speak Turkic, in a variety of dialects, and create, in a broadly defined sense, a common culture.[40][42]"

"Über die Ethnogenese dieses Stammes ist viel gerätselt worden. Auffallend ist, dass viele zentrale Begriffe iranischen Ursprungs sind. Dies betrifft fast alle Titel (...). Einige Gelehrte wollen auch die Eigenbezeichnung türk auf einen iranischen Ursprung zurückführen und ihn mit dem Wort "Turan", der persischen Bezeichnung für das Land jeneseits des Oxus, in Verbindung bringen.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_tribe

"Several researchers, including Peter B. Golden,[29] H. W. Haussig,[30] S. G. Klyashtorny,[31][32] Carter V. Findley,[33] D. G. Savinov,[34] S. P. Guschin,[35] and András Róna-Tas[36] have posited that the term Ashina is from the Iranian Saka or possibly from the Indo-Aryan Wusun.[37] They have put forward this version[clarification needed] of the following arguments: Carter Vaughin Findley assumes that the name "Ashina" comes from one of the Saka languages of central Asia and means "blue" (gök in Turkic). The color is identified with the east, so that Göktürk, another name for the Turkic empire, meant the "Turks of the East".[38] This idea is seconded by the Hungarian researcher András Róna-Tas, who finds it plausible "that we are dealing with a royal family and clan of Saka origin".[39] "The term bori, used to identify the ruler's retinue as 'wolves', probably also derived from one of the Iranian languages" proposes Findley. H. W. Haussig and S. G. Kljyashtorny suggest an association between the name and the compound "kindred of Ashin" ahşaẽna (in Old Persian). This is so even in East Turkestan; then the desired form would be in the Sogdian 'xs' yn' k (-әhšēnē) "blue, dark"; Khotan-Saka (Brahmi) āşşeiņa (-āşşena) "blue", where a long -ā- emerged as development ahş-> āşş-; in Tocharian A āśna- "blue, dark" (from Khotan-Saka and Sogdian)."


We discussed this earlier.
1) In Chinese sources, "Ashina" is the ruling clan of Turks, not the name of state.
2. Ancient Turks knew neither the Ashina clans, nor Gek clan (eastern, blue). They called the state Gek(Eastern,Blue) Turk kaganate.
Possibly the Chinese "Ashina" is a Turkic Asen.


According some researchers, the Bulgar Asen dynasty might be descendants of Ashina

As you can see, the connection between Iranian "āşşeiņa" and Turkic "gek" is illusory.

Borrowing titles by peripheral states is a ordinary practice. The Gek Turks just copied some titles from the Iranians when they created a state that they did not have before.
That is historical analogies:
Rus. "imperator"- from Latin source.
Rus. "tsar" - from Roman "Caesar".
Slav. "knaz" - from German sources.

"Entities should not be multiplied without necessity"

[Arhat]

The Avesta also lists the Aryan territories, the northernmost of which is Sogdiana(and,possibly,Khorezm -the border is unknown there). Turan and Sarmatians are not included in the Aryan territories / ethnic groups.

No data.

Turushka ( possibly *tur/turuk, shka-affix) - this is how the Indo-Scythians, Kushans, and Turks were called in the ancient Idian tradition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turushka

Very funny. Turan were just non-Persian East Iranics thats it. Brahmins also called Persians non-Aryans does that make them Turkic too?. Turks are from a historical point of view recent in the region and not even directly related to the Pre-Indo-European East Eurasian populations of the region who were rather ANE-shifted like WSHG.

[Chelubey]

Very funny. Turan were just non-Persian East Iranics thats it. Brahmins also called Persians non-Aryans does that make them Turkic too?.
However, Sogdians (eastern Iranians) and Khorezmians, as well as the inhabitants of the territory of Afghanistan, are counted among the Aryans. And there is not a single reference that they are Turanians. Undoubtedly, the modern interpretation of the terms Turanians and Turan is illogical. Possibly , the border of Turan was between Amu Darya and Syr Darya and Turanians were only Saka-like nomads . The border of Turan was mobile due to confrontation between Turan and Iran.
Later, during Turkic expansions, the border of the Turan significantly advanced to the South, and just at that time the territory of Sogdiana can be called Turan(partly).
The Map of Ariana according to Eratosthenes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariana



Turks are from a historical point of view recent in the region and not even directly related to the Pre-Indo-European East Eurasian populations of the region who were rather ANE-shifted like WSHG.

If you talk that Turks were recent and if you know the genetics of Proto-Turks, you can easily identify archaeological culture that was Proto-Turkic. This is very logical. So, from which archaeological culture did proto-Turk expansion begin?