E1b1b in South Europeans belongs to four different subclades

[Shubotai]

Haplogroup E in South Europeans belongs predominantly to four different subclades of E1b1b each one of which is more common in a different peninsula. E-M81 is more common in Iberia and mainly the western part of the Iberian peninsula, E-V22 is more common in Italia but absent from Sardinia, E-V13 is more common in the Balkans, especially Greeks and Albanians and E-M123 is more common in Anatolia and particularly Kurdish. The approximate frequency of each subclade is about 10% in each one of these areas not counting other subclades of E that might further increase its frequency in each place.

E-V13 E1b1b1a1b1a
E-V22 E1b1b1a1b2
E-M81 E1b1b1b1a
E-M123 E1b1b1b2a1

The four subclades E-V13, E-V22, E-M81 and E-M123 are parallel and stem from different haplogroups of E1b1b, which are respectively common in the Cushitic branch, the Egyptian branch, the Berberic branch and the Semitic branch of the Afroasiatic languages. E-V13 is more closely related to E-V22 and E-M81 is more closely related to E-M123.

The African admixture and the frequency of African mtdna are also higher in Iberia, Italia and Anatolia than they are in the Balkans. The frequency of y-dna E1b1b however is higher in the Balkans. A different migration route is the most probable for each one of the four groups.

101281

[Ülev]

E-V13achs

[Rocinante]

M81 and M123, by frecuency and history, can't be considered european haplogroups. You say M81 is common in Iberia, actually M78 family would be more common than M81, this obviously includes V22 and V13.

Since when Turkey is considered Europe?

[Gallop]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YKFiQybWiB8/XyMiBBzHyuI/AAAAAAAAEXA/Yo9mbEXayr4cvV8XvkdxMCDxqslHaQTIwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/YfullJULIO2020.jpg

This is my E-V22 group. How do you see it?

[Shubotai]

The joint frequency of E-V13 and E-V22 seems to equal that of E-M81 and they all follow the same distribution pattern being higher in the west part but also in the east coastal region although E-M81 seems to be older and more widespread. And there is the genetic impact of the Moors also.
Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/)

Haven't actually mentioned the country by its name, but for convenience purposes included the Kurds because of that shared haplogroup, along with some others. Of course, all of E1b1b is ultimately of North African origin.

The E-V22 in Andalusia came from the Maghreb recently.
They found all E-M81, E-V22 and E-M123 in samples from Andalus.
Genetic structure in the paternal lineages of South East Spain revealed by the analysis of 17 Y-STRs (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41580-9)

[Pine]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YKFiQybWiB8/XyMiBBzHyuI/AAAAAAAAEXA/Yo9mbEXayr4cvV8XvkdxMCDxqslHaQTIwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/YfullJULIO2020.jpg

This is my E-V22 group. How do you see it?

Your sibling clade is Jewish.

[Gallop]

Your sibling clade is Jewish.

There may be different religions, religions are infinitely more modern than genetics.

[Gallop]

Shubotai
The E-V22 in Andalusia came from the Maghreb recently.
They found all E-M81, E-V22 and E-M123 in samples from Andalus.
Genetic structure in the paternal lineages of South East Spain revealed by the analysis of 17 Y-STRs (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41580-9)

Age stimate

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ui5XRvwHh58/XgYmR55pWSI/AAAAAAAABzw/hCcDxPdlAIMCe26BL2QFHLp6ZubAykBDgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/edadl%25C3%25ADnea.JPEG

Neolithic? well I don't see it very recent

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SrqtShPZUQw/XjW0mrTZCYI/AAAAAAAACnw/reVI737dzroG6Xve-DlT6c6YDekhmSg-ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/EBY7449tBY7566.JPEG


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-71q6ZCGVaHA/XjBjzf08-4I/AAAAAAAACmw/EWO8q80POyYMEGLngAEcQ0zv2LzQGWAPACLcBGAsYHQ/s640/Refinitivo.jpg

[Shubotai]

That is its coalescence age and it is apparently very old and I think the ancestral subclades of E-V22 are found in Saudi Arabia. But the major frequency of E-V22 is still in Morocco and Western Sahara but also Italians and I think it came from there. Maybe you belong to the subclade Italians have, if the estimation of the molecular clock is around 2500 years could it have come with Romans (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Conquista_Hispania.svg/950px-Conquista_Hispania.svg.png)?

I am not sure which E1b1b subclade is connected to Shephardim Jews. The French should have also been included, most E1b1b belongs to E-M123 which was also the haplogroup of Napoleon and Einstein.

[Ion Basescul]

Biaka, Dinka, San and Pygmy?

[Chris596]

Just one question: if I get my 23andme data and use that on the MorleyDNA Y-SNP Subclade predictor, is it possible to go down to find a more specific subclade? I know that my paternal haplogroup is E-V13 but I don't really have any other information on it.

I know there are tests specifically for Y-DNA but I didn't want to spend that much and so on...

[gixajo]

Just one question: if I get my 23andme data and use that on the MorleyDNA Y-SNP Subclade predictor, is it possible to go down to find a more specific subclade? I know that my paternal haplogroup is E-V13 but I don't really have any other information on it.

I know there are tests specifically for Y-DNA but I didn't want to spend that much and so on...

If you got your E-V13 in Morley´s predictor using MyHeritage raw data,with 23andMe raw data will give you one step further (at most) or it will remain the same (usually).

Don´t forget to use Cladefinder also to compare both results.

[Shubotai]

If you have the 23andme raw data and want to manually find out your subclade, you have to browse the snps of Y-DNA or mtDNA chromosomes and check if you have the mutations. You have to cross-check them with a database like ybrowse (https://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?) or genetic homeland (https://www.genetichomeland.com/welcome/dnamarkerindex.asp) from where you can see the characteristic mutations for all haplogroups. For example, if the mutation is A -> C for a haplogroup and you have the ancestral allele A then you are negative for a haplogroup and if you have the derived allele C then your are positive for a haplogroup. The ancestral is on the left and your allele is on the right. If you are positive for a subclade there is no need to check for its parent haplogroup but you can do it anyway.
When checking for haplogroups it is a fun process but when looking for diseases you don't want to have the mutations.

[Hashoeva]

Haplogroup E-V22 in Morocco is only found among some Moroccan Arabs Muslims and among some Moroccan Jews. It is not commonly found in Morocco at all.

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Biaka, Dinka, San and Pygmy?

All those groups got their original Y-DNA replaced by the Bantu E carriers.

[Adamm]

E-V13 E1b1b1a1b1a (South-East Europe)
E-V22 E1b1b1a1b2 (East Africa)
E-M81 E1b1b1b1a (North-West Africa)
E-M123 E1b1b1b2a1 (Fertile Crescent)

[Hashoeva]

Haplogroup E-V22 in Morocco is only found among some Moroccan Arabs Muslims and among some Moroccan Jews. It is not commonly found in Morocco. Haplogroup E-V22 is mostly found in North East of Egypt, in the Levant like Palestine, Lebanon, etc.

The Levis tribe of the Samaritans is an example of E-V22 rooted in the Levant. So haplogroup E-V22 was also the haplogroup of the ancient Israelite tribes.

[Hamilcar]

Haplogroup E-V22 in Morocco is only found among some Moroccan Arabs Muslims and among some Moroccan Jews. It is not commonly found in Morocco. Haplogroup E-V22 is mostly found in North East of Egypt, in the Levant like Palestine, Lebanon, etc.

The Levis tribe of the Samaritans is an example of E-V22 rooted in the Levant. So haplogroup E-V22 was also the haplogroup of the ancient Israelite tribes.

I think we already understood calm down pls

[Leto]

All those groups got their original Y-DNA replaced by the Bantu E carriers.
The best thread about E1b1b, gotta love that title
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?209471-Haplogroup-E1b-Nigger-or-West-Eurasian (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?209471-Haplogroup-E1b-N-gger-or-West-Eurasian)
Yes, it is Niger
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/p6vVFILemBs/maxresdefault.jpg

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Haplogroup E-V22 in Morocco is only found among some Moroccan Arabs Muslims and among some Moroccan Jews. It is not commonly found in Morocco. Haplogroup E-V22 is mostly found in North East of Egypt, in the Levant like Palestine, Lebanon, etc.

The Levis tribe of the Samaritans is an example of E-V22 rooted in the Levant. So haplogroup E-V22 was also the haplogroup of the ancient Israelite tribes.


E-V22 is more Afro-Asiatic than it is Semitic. That’s why in both ancient and present times it’s center is around Egypt. Sure some of them spilled into surrounding areas in significant quantity.

Original semites were probably some off shoot subclade of E-Z827(Natufian branch) that got completely replaced by J in the Bronze Age.

[Hamilcar]

Haplogroup E-V22 in Morocco is only found among some Moroccan Arabs Muslims and among some Moroccan Jews. It is not commonly found in Morocco. Haplogroup E-V22 is mostly found in North East of Egypt, in the Levant like Palestine, Lebanon, etc.

The Levis tribe of the Samaritans is an example of E-V22 rooted in the Levant. So haplogroup E-V22 was also the haplogroup of the ancient Israelite tribes.

I think we already understood calm down pls

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

The best thread about E1b1b, gotta love that title
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?209471-Haplogroup-E1b-Nigger-or-West-Eurasian (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?209471-Haplogroup-E1b-N-gger-or-West-Eurasian)
Yes, it is Niger
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/p6vVFILemBs/maxresdefault.jpg


Lol not enough info about iberomaurusian mechtoids or ancestral North Africans in that thread for me to take it seriously.

[Shubotai]

Sure, linguistically E-V22 may have been the modal haplogroup for ancient Egyptians and E-M81 for Berbers in northwest Africa, just discussing how certain subclades would have reached Iberia.

[Hapanuwa]

Is this E-V13 or E-V22

E1b1b1a1b~1~3
E-PF1917 (E-PF1919, E-PF1921)

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Fun fact about the E1b-V13 sub clade, it arrived in Europe before it arrived in North Africa and and the Middle East. So it's presence in Europe is completely a mystery, furthermore despite E1b1b being an "African" originating haplogroup, because of how old, ancient and widespread it is. It is generally not refereed to as that in genetic experts. To be more precise there are different versions, E1b-M123 (My subclade) is Middle Eastern and is most commonly found among Near-Easterners or "ethnic groups" with Ancient Near-Eastern origin such as Assyrians and Jews. E1b-M83 is the North African subclade and is generally found only in Berbers and other North African ethnic groups, it is also sometimes found in Europe but it's uncommon. Finally the E1b-V13 is the European subclade and is present in Europeans with Neolithic DNA such as Italians, Serbians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks. There are millions of other subclades obviously but I just mentioned the 3 main ones, there also subclades found in Ethiopians and Somalians.

It's important to never use Haplogroups as an accurate determination of Race or DNA as Haplogroups go back Thousands upon Thousands of years ago.

[Aren]

E-V22 is more Afro-Asiatic than it is Semitic. That’s why in both ancient and present times it’s center is around Egypt. Sure some of them spilled into surrounding areas in significant quantity.

Original semites were probably some off shoot subclade of E-Z827(Natufian branch) that got completely replaced by J in the Bronze Age.

Natufians were not pre-proto-Semitic. Semitic and Berber split off ca 5500BC meaning the split happend way post the Natufian era, probably in a population that had just shifted to farming in Lower Egypt rich in E-M34.

[Gallop]

That is its coalescence age and it is apparently very old and I think the ancestral subclades of E-V22 are found in Saudi Arabia. But the major frequency of E-V22 is still in Morocco and Western Sahara but also Italians and I think it came from there. Maybe you belong to the subclade Italians have, if the estimation of the molecular clock is around 2500 years could it have come with Romans (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Conquista_Hispania.svg/950px-Conquista_Hispania.svg.png)?

I am not sure which E1b1b subclade is connected to Shephardim Jews. The French should have also been included, most E1b1b belongs to E-M123 which was also the haplogroup of Napoleon and Einstein.

With Rome perhaps he would have moved, since Rome propitiated movements, displacements, military and of all kinds. It could have become Roman, it could have become Gallo etc

[Gallop]

Sure, linguistically E-V22 may have been the modal haplogroup for ancient Egyptians and E-M81 for Berbers in northwest Africa, just discussing how certain subclades would have reached Iberia.

Someone has known by the forums some Spanish E-M81 by curiosity since I have not found it yet or perhaps they are not fans to the forums also can happen or are and do not publish also could be, I do not know.

[Gallop]

The joint frequency of E-V13 and E-V22 seems to equal that of E-M81 and they all follow the same distribution pattern being higher in the west part but also in the east coastal region although E-M81 seems to be older and more widespread. And there is the genetic impact of the Moors also.
Moors and Saracens in Europe: estimating the medieval North African male legacy in southern Europe (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/)

Haven't actually mentioned the country by its name, but for convenience purposes included the Kurds because of that shared haplogroup, along with some others. Of course, all of E1b1b is ultimately of North African origin.

The E-V22 in Andalusia came from the Maghreb recently.
They found all E-M81, E-V22 and E-M123 in samples from Andalus.
Genetic structure in the paternal lineages of South East Spain revealed by the analysis of 17 Y-STRs (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41580-9)

The day before yesterday?

My results do not agree much with what you say.

And with the story it doesn't fit me very well. That is, territories were being conquered from the Muslims and were populated with people from the Christian kingdoms who had to live side by side with the enemy, there were many repopulations they say that people could have come from different places in Europe too, when the Reconquest is completed the Muslims have just been expelled, the revolts of the Alpujarras, of those who could stay were to be converted, many would already be Hispanic-Roman and were very moved from Andalusia, perhaps even taken to other Spanish regions and now the only E V22 within the immense minority that has to be I go and stay in Andalusia with all my eggs, I do not see it, I am very quiet, would be of the nerves even today.

A place with a beastly frenzy and the most minority haplogroup that can exist is 800 years old and stays in the same place, statistically it would be already rare.

In Andalusia there were many movements as in all places to be in one place for so long that there are so many differences between the old and modern populations, there are changes.

I do not know what Moroccan users think, they are often the most impartial and honest and know Europe better than many Europeans who do not even know Andalusia, come on.

[Adamm]

The day before yesterday?

My results do not agree much with what you say.

And with the story it doesn't fit me very well. That is, territories were being conquered from the Muslims and were populated with people from the Christian kingdoms who had to live side by side with the enemy, there were many repopulations they say that people could have come from different places in Europe too, when the Reconquest is completed the Muslims have just been expelled, the revolts of the Alpujarras, of those who could stay were to be converted, many would already be Hispanic-Roman and were very moved from Andalusia, perhaps even taken to other Spanish regions and now the only E V22 within the immense minority that has to be I go and stay in Andalusia with all my eggs, I do not see it, I am very quiet, would be of the nerves even today.

A place with a beastly frenzy and the most minority haplogroup that can exist is 800 years old and stays in the same place, statistically it would be already rare.

In Andalusia there were many movements as in all places to be in one place for so long that there are so many differences between the old and modern populations, there are changes.

I do not know what Moroccan users think, they are often the most impartial and honest and know Europe better than many Europeans who do not even know Andalusia, come on.

E-V22 is VERY rare in Morocco or north-west Africa, I think E-v22 in Iberia comes either from Phoenicians or Arabs but not from the Maghreb. I've collected a lot of y-DNA and if I'm not mistaken I've not seen yet any individual tested for E-V22 out of Morocco:

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/north-african-y-dna-distribution_475551#7/32.292/-4.735 <-- Here is where I collect the data (y-DNA)

E-M81 is North-West African (Maghrebi) without any doubts, and I know a decent amount of Iberian carriers of this haplogroup (they are also part on our E-M81 DNA project on FTDNA).

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Natufians were not pre-proto-Semitic. Semitic and Berber split off ca 5500BC meaning the split happend way post the Natufian era, probably in a population that had just shifted to farming in Lower Egypt rich in E-M34.


Right but the Y-DNA of berbers has its roots from natufians and same would go for these early Semitic people. E-V22 is more of the local north East African haplogroup.

[Chris596]

Is this E-V13 or E-V22

E1b1b1a1b~1~3
E-PF1917 (E-PF1919, E-PF1921)

It's E-V13

[Gallop]

It has increased my age 3143 years for my line as of today.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ui5XRvwHh58/XgYmR55pWSI/AAAAAAAABzw/hCcDxPdlAIMCe26BL2QFHLp6ZubAykBDgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/edadl%25C3%25ADnea.JPEG

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xl569tAFcIU/YJW2NZjx0LI/AAAAAAAAGNU/wwSfxTUa8-I47ZI790wy9eg5ZzAwynp6wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1149/Estimaci%25C3%25B3nEdad2021.jpeg

[Linebacker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTQbiNvZqaY