Is the modern Left a largely conservative project?

[Tooting Carmen]

As absurd and preposterous as this might sound to many at first, I increasingly think it is. Consider how lots of modern leftists stand on the following issues:

Pornography and prostitution. While traditional rightists would rail against them for their 'decadence' and 'immorality', plenty of modern leftists now rail against them for being symbols of 'patriarchy' and 'sexism'.

Miscegenation. While many traditional rightists would rail against it in the name of White supremacy or racial purity, nowadays some modern leftists rail against it because they see it as evidence of Black/Asian/Latino self-hatred and succumbing to White privilege and dominance.

Environmentalism. Despite being seen as a left-wing movement, the truth is that environmentalism, what with its almost Spenglerian suspicion of modernity and technology (or rather, what it regards as the excesses of both) is in many aspects a thoroughly conservative, if not reactionary ideology.

A prime example of the growing conservatism of much of the Left has gotta be the Aussie feminist Germaine Greer. Having come to the conclusion that it has been mostly men who have benefited from the Sexual Revolution, the woman once synonymous with sexual liberation and the joys of fatherlessness now advocates for traditional marriage and family values, albeit with a feminist twist. Furthermore, as the eminent LGBT activist Peter Tatchell himself has said, the modern-day campaign to recognise gay marriage is itself highly conservative and conformist.

[gixajo]

As absurd and preposterous as this might sound to many at first, I increasingly think it is. Consider how lots of modern leftists stand on the following issues:

Pornography and prostitution. While traditional rightists would rail against them for their 'decadence' and 'immorality', plenty of modern leftists now rail against them for being symbols of 'patriarchy' and 'sexism'.

Miscegenation. While many traditional rightists would rail against it in the name of White supremacy or racial purity, nowadays some modern leftists rail against it because they see it as evidence of Black/Asian/Latino self-hatred and succumbing to White privilege and dominance.

Environmentalism. Despite being seen as a left-wing movement, the truth is that environmentalism, what with its almost Spenglerian suspicion of modernity and technology (or rather, what it regards as the excesses of both) is in many aspects a thoroughly conservative, if not reactionary ideology.

A prime example of the growing conservatism of much of the Left has gotta be the Aussie feminist Germaine Greer. Having come to the conclusion that it has been mostly men who have benefited from the Sexual Revolution, the woman once synonymous with sexual liberation and the joys of fatherlessness now advocates for traditional marriage and family values, albeit with a feminist twist. Furthermore, as the eminent LGBT activist Peter Tatchell himself has said, the modern-day campaign to recognise gay marriage is itself highly conservative and conformist.

It is not absurd what you propose, actually left and right, today have no meaning beyond a convenient label, there are many conservative trends on the modern left, and also on the right, many progressive ideas that a right-wing person from another time would have considered ridiculous to see in the ideology of the right but nowadays they are part of what is considered right-wing ideas.

Everything changes with time, everything changes, so that everything remains the same :)

[Tooting Carmen]

It is not absurd what you propose, actually left and right, today have no meaning beyond a convenient label, there are many conservative trends on the modern left, and also on the right, many progressive ideas that a right-wing person from another time would have considered ridiculous to see in the ideology of the right but nowadays they are part of what is considered right-wing ideas.

Everything changes with time, everything changes, so that everything remains the same :)

For good and for ill, I'd say that over the last 3-4 decades the Right has become more socially liberal/libertarian and the Left (or significant strands of it, at any rate) less so.

[Tooting Carmen]

One thing that radical feminists ironically share with social/religious traditionalists is their suspicion towards women's sexuality. Only that where the latter label overly sexual women as 'whores', the former label them as 'victims'. While both camps would have issues with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onX6jBwUlyw

The funny thing is that usually they wouldn't with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBtdm3fk2QQ

[Daco Celtic]

What a joke. I've literally never met a left wing person that subscribes to these views. This type of left winger does exist in large numbers, at least not in the US.

[sean]

While many traditional rightists would rail against it in the name of White supremacy or racial purity, nowadays some modern leftists rail against it because they see it as evidence of Black/Asian/Latino self-hatred and succumbing to White privilege and dominance.

https://i.imgur.com/D47sXqj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/f7xnZLY.jpg

When we all know its not true.

https://i.imgur.com/GCeZtEy.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VIasEKx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/u5oQ0fg.png

Conservative project my foot lel.

Just a reminder, you've been spamming this board non-stop with total bullshit, shitting up every thread with nonsense, and generally been awful every minute of every hour of every day since 2013.

[ShieldWolf]

No, the left is not a conservative project. Far from it. They have moved farther and farther to the left. Instead of being predominantly left-of-center in the past, they are now unabashedly socialists and communists.

[Tooting Carmen]

What a joke. I've literally never met a left wing person that subscribes to these views. This type of left winger does exist in large numbers, at least not in the US.

For leftist feminists who oppose pornography and prostitution, try Julie Bindel, Catherine MacKinnon or the late Andrea Dworkin. For leftist sceptics of miscegenation, try loads of African-American intellectuals and activists beginning with Malcolm X himself. And most if not all Green Parties are (putatively) left-leaning nowadays, even if that wasn't always the case.

[Daco Celtic]

For leftist feminists who oppose pornography and prostitution, try Julie Bindel, Catherine MacKinnon or the late Andrea Dworkin. For leftist sceptics of miscegenation, try loads of African-American intellectuals and activists beginning with Malcolm X himself. And most if not all Green Parties are (putatively) left-leaning nowadays, even if that wasn't always the case.

Like I said, these people don't exist in large numbers. All these people are outside of mainstream left wing politics and don't represent rank-and-file liberals.

[Tooting Carmen]

Like I said, these people don't exist in large numbers. All these people are outside of mainstream left wing politics and don't represent rank-and-file liberals.

Perhaps so, but I still think that to some extent these small 'c' conservative ideas about sex, race and the natural world itself have infiltrated even the mainstream Left.

[Tooting Carmen]

A prime example of a semi-leftist sceptic of miscegenation in our very forum is the recently-returned Somali user Wadaad/Ascended, who argues that non-Whites with White partners are often 'self-hating', 'complexed' and may have 'OWD'.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I think the question is only relevant when referring to white liberals. Most minority leftists are just conservatives(i.e most Mexican Americans vote Democrat, but do it for reasons of self and almost ethnic chauvinism, same with blacks, polls consistently find blacks are far more anti-gay/etc than whites in the US) that are only left on racial issues(sometimes gender for the women, minority men not so much), if not just outright ethno-centric politics disguised as leftism. Imo true leftism is almost entirely a white, Ashkenazi Jewish, and to a lesser extent Turk/Arab/Iranian thing, I don't think I've ever seen a genuine black, east Asian or Indian leftist.

As for your question, I tend to agree with everyone else that these are mostly minority positions/stances on the left, especially pornography. Every leftist I know dislikes those anti-porn types. Same with race mixing, especially among whites. I agree environmentalism as a movement was largely started by conservatives, and even racial conservationists(the idea itself is also reactionary, yes), it's all pretty much been abandoned by the right by now though, gotta pick between being flooded by Joses/Mustafas and caring about the planet usually.

This is kind of off-topic but I too have a rather absurd theory about modern white leftists. I am absolutely convinced they are(largely, or more per capita) descended from colonists, missionaries, slave owners, etc, the people they despise pretty much. I won't provide a huge explanation why, but in my honest opinion, European colonists were the SJWs of their time. Was colonialism done to benefit Europe? Yes, that doesn't mean it also wasn't done for Religious reasons back then to help people, you had a mix of both, and I believe to move to such a foreign place at the time, even temporarily you'd have to be a pretty tolerant person. Same can possibly be said for slave owners, who may've thought they were doing enslaved Africans a favour by giving them better conditions than they'd have in Africa. Slave owners who literally had black people live in their own houses and take care of their children. Did they have non-politically correct views by today's standards? Sure, but imo they were the anti-racists of their time and modern SJWs take on more of their legacy imo than modern racists do(who pretty much want nothing to do with minorities). A good example would be Richard Dawkins, maybe not the best example of a leftist(but overall he is one imo), his father was a rich plantation owner in Kenya. Not to mention conservatives usually come from poorer backgrounds. Off-topic rant over.

Also, Wadaad, cannot be under any circumstances be considered leftist lol.

[Tooting Carmen]

I think the question is only relevant when referring to white liberals. Most minority leftists are just conservatives(i.e most Mexican Americans vote Democrat, but do it for reasons of self and almost ethnic chauvinism, same with blacks, polls consistently find blacks are far more anti-gay/etc than whites in the US) that are only left on racial issues(sometimes gender for the women, minority men not so much), if not just outright ethno-centric politics disguised as leftism.

While I think there is some truth to that, that outlook comes across as too Nietzschean and cynical. Also, within the Left there are doubtless divisions based on gender and race when it comes to the issues I listed in the OP - leftist women are probably much more likely to oppose porn and prostitution than are leftist men; similarly, non-white leftists may feel more ambivalent about miscegenation than do White leftists, since they may regard it as just another tool of White domination.


Imo true leftism is almost entirely a white, Ashkenazi Jewish, and to a lesser extent Turk/Arab/Iranian thing, I don't think I've ever seen a genuine black, east Asian or Indian leftist.

MENAs more left-wing than other non-whites? How on Earth so?


As for your question, I tend to agree with everyone else that these are mostly minority positions/stances on the left, especially pornography. Every leftist I know dislikes those anti-porn types.

Depends which circles you move in, especially with women.


Same with race mixing, especially among whites.

OK.


I agree environmentalism as a movement was largely started by conservatives, and even racial conservationists (the idea itself is also reactionary, yes)

Exactly.


it's all pretty much been abandoned by the right by now though, gotta pick between being flooded by Joses/Mustafas and caring about the planet usually.

Well climate change and resource depletion are real issues, but the trouble is that many environmentalists tend to regard technology as the problem rather than the solution when it comes to adaptation and mitigation. (The opposition most of them have towards nuclear energy is especially dogmatic and irrational, even though it will have to play its part if we are to truly move away from fossil fuels).


This is kind of off-topic but I too have a rather absurd theory about modern white leftists. I am absolutely convinced they are (largely, or more per capita) descended from colonists, missionaries, slave owners, etc, the people they despise pretty much. I won't provide a huge explanation why, but in my honest opinion, European colonists were the SJWs of their time. Was colonialism done to benefit Europe? Yes, that doesn't mean it also wasn't done for Religious reasons back then to help people, you had a mix of both, and I believe to move to such a foreign place at the time, even temporarily you'd have to be a pretty tolerant person. Same can possibly be said for slave owners, who may've thought they were doing enslaved Africans a favour by giving them better conditions than they'd have in Africa. Slave owners who literally had black people live in their own houses and take care of their children. Did they have non-politically correct views by today's standards? Sure, but imo they were the anti-racists of their time and modern SJWs take on more of their legacy imo than modern racists do (who pretty much want nothing to do with minorities).

In another thread of mine, I actually just said there are interesting parallels between the Anglo-Saxon and Arab-Islamic worlds: both have a messianic view of themselves where, be it due to expediency or a strange sense of duty, they feel the need to impose/spread their language, culture and faith all over the world. (Contrast this with the Chinese, who may be extremely ruthless and brutally assimilationist at home, but when it comes to global affairs tend to be a lot more pragmatic and less fervent).


A good example would be Richard Dawkins, maybe not the best example of a leftist(but overall he is one imo), his father was a rich plantation owner in Kenya. Not to mention conservatives usually come from poorer backgrounds. Off-topic rant over.

Richard Dawkins, however good some of his points are, ultimately comes across as joyless and hysterical. Also, his ideas about genetic pre-determinism and 'memes' are actually quite totalitarian and injurious to human individualism and free will.


Also, Wadaad, cannot be under any circumstances be considered leftist lol.

Wadaad may be a social conservative, but his ideas about race and global relations are very much in the vein of Toussain L'Ouverture and Frantz Fanon. And I don't know what his economic views are like either.

[XenophobicPrussian]

MENAs more left-wing than other non-whites? How on Earth so?

Sorry, I didn't mean on average, obviously that isn't the case. I mean among pure, committed definite left-wing people(anyone from social democrats to tumblr SJWs, and outright communists). For example, the Chinese, Indian immigrants and upper classes at home will be far more centrist and pragmatic from my experience. I'm probably going off of too much ancedotal evidence but I've noticed an overrepresentation among MENA people in Antifa for example, atleast in a place like the US and Canada(in mainland Europe it's only natural since there's more of them compared to other minorities), as opposed to blacks/hispanics, or Indians/Chinese in Canada. Maybe Europe is the complete opposite or maybe I'm just flat out wrong, but yeah, when I hear a person like Cenk Uygur speak, I hear a person genuinely leftist and concerned about everyone, when I hear a person like Simone Sanders or Cornel West I hear black ethnocentrists concerned about their own kind first and foremost. I really have not met many East Asian leftists, other than those types of "azn pride" immigrants who basically do the exact thing as the situation I described before, using so called social justice to further ethnocentrism. The lower classes of Indians(in the west too) are outright as conservative as Muslims, and straight up more ethnocentric(I don't think anyone is more ethnocentric than Indians tbh). I guess if you include rather apolitical centre-left people and obviously centrists who share a lot of leftist views this isn't the case.

[Jacques de Imbelloni]

the stream of thought run by critical theory, postmodernism/post structuralism seeks the destruction of traditional western values and the implementations of their own decolonized/feministic values.
What we are now seeing is a new step foward, now that they are "trendy" they are going to become purist, or even puritanical, looking to be higher in the moral ladder.
SJWs are the new church ladies, pointing their fingers against anybody that transgress or just don't conform with the new moral values: diversity, tolerance, anty racism, femenism etc

[Tooting Carmen]

the stream of thought run by critical theory, postmodernism/post structuralism seeks the destruction of traditional western values and the implementations of their own decolonized/feministic values.
What we are now seeing is a new step foward, now that they are "trendy" they are going to become purist, or even puritanical, looking to be higher in the moral ladder.
SJWs are the new church ladies, pointing their fingers against anybody that transgress or just don't conform with the new moral values: diversity, tolerance, anty racism, femenism etc

But the point is: how do you define anti-racism and feminism? Do we mean the ideas of MLK or Malcolm X? Do we mean the ideas of Andrea Dworkin or 1970's Germaine Greer?

[Tooting Carmen]

Sorry, I didn't mean on average, obviously that isn't the case. I mean among pure, committed definite left-wing people(anyone from social democrats to tumblr SJWs, and outright communists). For example, the Chinese, Indian immigrants and upper classes at home will be far more centrist and pragmatic from my experience. I'm probably going off of too much ancedotal evidence but I've noticed an overrepresentation among MENA people in Antifa for example, atleast in a place like the US and Canada(in mainland Europe it's only natural since there's more of them compared to other minorities), as opposed to blacks/hispanics, or Indians/Chinese in Canada. Maybe Europe is the complete opposite or maybe I'm just flat out wrong, but yeah, when I hear a person like Cenk Uygur speak, I hear a person genuinely leftist and concerned about everyone, when I hear a person like Simone Sanders or Cornel West I hear black ethnocentrists concerned about their own kind first and foremost. I really have not met many East Asian leftists, other than those types of "azn pride" immigrants who basically do the exact thing as the situation I described before, using so called social justice to further ethnocentrism. The lower classes of Indians(in the west too) are outright as conservative as Muslims, and straight up more ethnocentric(I don't think anyone is more ethnocentric than Indians tbh). I guess if you include rather apolitical centre-left people and obviously centrists who share a lot of leftist views this isn't the case.

In Britain, while Blacks, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis still overwhelmingly vote Labour, a good number of Indians nowadays vote Tory, due to a combination of (real or perceived) social conservatism and a more middle-class and aspirational outlook. (Our current Tory government has four Indian-descended members of the cabinet).

Anyway, my essential point is that, within the Left, it is the identitarian and puritanical strains that have become increasingly vocal and dominant at the expense of the more libertarian and free-spirited strains.

[Jacques de Imbelloni]

But the point is: how do you define anti-racism and feminism? Do we mean the ideas of MLK or Malcolm X? Do we mean the ideas of Andrea Dworkin or 1970's Germaine Greer?
In frantz fanon books it's pretty clear that only by eliminating western culture will the oppressed colonized POCS liberate themselfs in body and spirit.
Already marx wiev the nuclear patrilinial family as a product of welth acumulation, third wave feminism only reinforces that by blaming very social problem to patriarchy.

[Tooting Carmen]

In frantz fanon books it's pretty clear that only by eliminating western culture will the oppressed colonized POCS liberate themselfs in body and spirit.

While I am all for cultural diversity and pluralism, and I despise cultural globalisation and homogenisation, the point is that what would they replace Western culture with? Islam? The Hindu caste system? Chinese Communism?


Already marx wiev the nuclear patrilinial family as a product of welth acumulation, third wave feminism only reinforces that by blaming very social problem to patriarchy.

The thing is that, within the family structure, men have responsibilities as well as rights - fidelity and financial security being chief among them.

[Faklon]

You are confusing logical reasoning with paranoia.


Chaos may overlap with everything including logical reasoning, it doesn't make it logical reasoning.

[Immanenz]

As absurd and preposterous as this might sound to many at first, I increasingly think it is. Consider how lots of modern leftists stand on the following issues:

Pornography and prostitution. While traditional rightists would rail against them for their 'decadence' and 'immorality', plenty of modern leftists now rail against them for being symbols of 'patriarchy' and 'sexism'.

Miscegenation. While many traditional rightists would rail against it in the name of White supremacy or racial purity, nowadays some modern leftists rail against it because they see it as evidence of Black/Asian/Latino self-hatred and succumbing to White privilege and dominance.





i think you are only confusing becoming more rigid in their views with conservative. Some Leftist just became more rigid and therefor act less liberal which is true. Nobody with extreme values can see himself as liberal (not in the economical sense, but in giving others feeedom of choices) if he does not allow others to express themselves how they want to.

[Tooting Carmen]

i think you are only confusing becoming more rigid in their views with conservative. Some Leftist just became more rigid and therefor act less liberal which is true. Nobody with extreme values can see himself as liberal (not in the economical sense, but in giving others freedom of choices) if he does not allow others to express themselves how they want to.

The point is that the old distinction whereby the Right stood for (real or imaginary) traditional morals and values and the Left stood for wanting greater liberty and self-expression has largely broken down.

[Immanenz]

The point is that the old distinction whereby the Right stood for (real or imaginary) traditional morals and values and the Left stood for wanting greater liberty and self-expression has largely broken down.

i kind of agree in this point although i do think that majority of people are still somewhere in the middle or simply dont care too much about/ are only looking for their own prosperitiy etc.

[Tooting Carmen]

Here is some proof of the bullshit I am talking about:

Students at NYC University organise a petition for racially-segregated accommodation in the name of 'anti-racism' and 'safe spaces': https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/27/you-cant-fight-racism-with-segregation/

Prominent Afram intellectual rants against transracial adoptions: https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/30/ibram-x-kendi-when-wokes-and-white-supremacists-agree/