Understanding Sicilian and Maltese YDNA

[Varg Vikernes 2]

I have recently purchased a 23andMe DNA test (though I haven't received the results yet). I'm trying to do more research into YDNA in order to understand my results once they arrive. My father is of Maltese origin, specifically Gozitan, and has a surname derived from Ancient Greek. I have traced back my paternal line to the late 1400s. At this point, I believe it probably entered Malta from Sicily or Calabria, probably from the Griko population (Greek-speaking population of Southern Italy).

The most common haplogroups in Malta are R1 (35.55% including 32.2% R1b), J (28.90% including 21.10% J2 and 7.8% J1), I (12.20%), E (11.10% including 8.9% E1b1b).

Similar percentages are found in Sicily.

My question is, seeing as I have about a 50% chance of belonging to a MENA haplogroup (E or J), I would like to know, is it possible to know when the haplogroups entered Malta and Sicily, beyond them simply being from the North Africa or the Middle East? I would like to know whether most of this comes from ancient migrations such as the Neolithic farmers or Phoenicians, or whether it is more likely a result of Muslim raids over the last 1500 years.

Can anyone with more of an understanding shed some light on this or direct me to further reading? Are some subclades of these haplogroups associated with a particular migration?

[Rocinante]

J2 and E1b1 are not entirely MENA lineages.

[Varg Vikernes 2]

J2 and E1b1 are not entirely MENA lineages.

Can you explain please?

[Varg Vikernes 2]

J2 and E1b1 are not entirely MENA lineages.

Can you explain please?

[Slavic Italian]

J2 and E1b1 are not entirely MENA lineages.

They mostly are.

[Rocinante]

They mostly are.

E1b1 can be european, MENA and negroid, but J2 has a lot of european clades, including anatolian ones.


Can you explain please?

I will explain it graphically.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/J2-tree-2016.png

J2a1 is european and is found among on neolithic farmers, romans, ancient greeks, etc.

E1b1 is more complex and would be useless to post a distribution map, but there is a very common mutation that is E-V13, belongs to E1b1 and is quite european, is common among west balkanites and greeks, of course a big part of the E1b1 sicilians belongs to this clade.

[Pine]

E1b1 can be european, MENA and negroid, but J2 has a lot of european clades, including anatolian ones.



I will explain it graphically.

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/J2-tree-2016.png

J2a1 is european and is found among on neolithic farmers, romans, ancient greeks, etc.

E1b1 is more complex and would be useless to post a distribution map, but there is a very common mutation that is E-V13, belongs to E1b1 and is quite european, is common among west balkanites and greeks, of course a big part of the E1b1 sicilians belongs to this clade.

Almost no J2a in Europe is from the Neolithic.

[Rocinante]

Almost no J2a in Europe is from the Neolithic.

I5078, Sopot, 4692-4546 calBCE

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778
doi:10.1038/nature25778

I5078
mtDNA: H10
Y-DNA: J2a1

R16, R17, R18, R19, Neolithic, 5465 - 5214 calBCE

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708
DOI: 10.1126/science.aay6826

R16
mtDNA: U5b2b3

R17
mtDNA: U8b1b
Y-DNA: J-M304

R18
mtDNA: H2a

R19
mtDNA: U5b3a1
Y-DNA: J-L26

I5070, I5204, I5205, I5206, I5207, I5208, LBK, 5500-4500 BCE

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778
doi:10.1038/nature25778

I5070
mtDNA: K1a1a
Y-DNA: C1a2

I5204
mtDNA: J1c2
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a3

I5205
mtDNA: H

I5206
mtDNA: T2b

I5207
mtDNA: H67
Y-DNA: J2a

I5208
mtDNA: K1b1a

There are many more, also J1c1 is very present among neolithic expansion, but i think J1 is very present in the Middle East so it is mainly MENA.

[mitalit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZUJKXs6W-4&t=35s

[Gallop]

Apparently the term MENA that is being used in the forums in a not very scientific way and it may be wrong since it would not be scientific.

On the other hand, you do not have to worry about the vast majority of countries on the European continent are E in their compositions of haplogroups.

They can be due to early Palaeolithic or Neolithic entries or other historical events throughout history such as Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Roman Empire or also the movements between European countries afterwards. In many cases it is not yet known with certainty when each entry belongs

Entries of single men without women in a few hundred years of mixing with native women all their autosomal is already native. In the case of Sicily, I am constantly reading that it is different from the rest of Europe, it should not be just because there are E haplogroups since it is all over Europe.

In my Yfull group I am with Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Dutch, we are all E-V22 Tell us that we are not Europeans because we have the dnaY E-V22, we eat it with potatoes.

https://loresumo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/el-extra%C3%B1o-caso-del-dr-jekyll-y-mr-hyde-22.jpg

[Pine]

I5078, Sopot, 4692-4546 calBCE

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778
doi:10.1038/nature25778

I5078
mtDNA: H10
Y-DNA: J2a1

R16, R17, R18, R19, Neolithic, 5465 - 5214 calBCE

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708
DOI: 10.1126/science.aay6826

R16
mtDNA: U5b2b3

R17
mtDNA: U8b1b
Y-DNA: J-M304

R18
mtDNA: H2a

R19
mtDNA: U5b3a1
Y-DNA: J-L26

I5070, I5204, I5205, I5206, I5207, I5208, LBK, 5500-4500 BCE

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778
doi:10.1038/nature25778

I5070
mtDNA: K1a1a
Y-DNA: C1a2

I5204
mtDNA: J1c2
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a3

I5205
mtDNA: H

I5206
mtDNA: T2b

I5207
mtDNA: H67
Y-DNA: J2a

I5208
mtDNA: K1b1a

There are many more, also J1c1 is very present among neolithic expansion, but i think J1 is very present in the Middle East so it is mainly MENA.

They don't account for that much.

[Rocinante]

They don't account for that much.

So, if it didn't came between Neolithic and Chalcolithic period by farmers, who brought that big bunch of J2a in italians and greeks?

[Pine]

So, if it didn't came between Neolithic and Chalcolithic period by farmers, who brought that big bunch of J2a in italians and greeks?

Bronze Age Near Easterners, sometimes even later.

[xripkan]

So, if it didn't came between Neolithic and Chalcolithic period by farmers, who brought that big bunch of J2a in italians and greeks?

J2a has been found among Mycenaeans. It is believed that it arrived in Greece during Bronze Age with Proto-Greeks.

[Rocinante]

J2a has been found among Mycenaeans. It is believed that it arrived in Greece during Bronze Age with Proto-Greeks.

It arrived in the Neolithic period, with some anatolian farmers carrying it, that is why it can be found even in North of Europe. Good haplo, i like it a lot.

[xripkan]

It arrived in the Neolithic period, with some anatolian farmers carrying it, that is why it can be found even in North of Europe. Good haplo, i like it a lot.

In Greece and Balkans it arrived with the Bronza Age Indo-Europeans. J2a in Greece and J2b in Balkans. Neolithic farmers brought in Greece G2a, which was the dominant haplogroup before the arrival of Proto-Greeks.

[Hamilcar]

Bronze Age Near Easterners, sometimes even later.

in the case of sicily is it due to the colonization of it by greeks or has sicily also been directly influenced by bronze age migrations ?

[Rocinante]

In Greece and Balkans it arrived with the Bronza Age Indo-Europeans. J2a in Greece and J2b in Balkans. Neolithic farmers brought in Greece G2a, which was the dominant haplogroup before the arrival of Proto-Greeks.

There are neolithic samples in Hungary, Austria, Italy and other european countries with J2, these people didn't reach Europe through the eurasian steppe, these niggas went farmers that crossed the Aegean Sea or the Bosporus. J2 was way before the indo-europeans, which i think they didn't had any J2 (not that i know, i think i might be wrong on here).

[xripkan]

There are neolithic samples in Hungary, Austria, Italy and other european countries with J2, these people didn't reach Europe through the eurasian steppe, these niggas went farmers that crossed the Aegean Sea or the Bosporus. J2 was way before the indo-europeans, which i think they didn't had any J2 (not that i know, i think i might be wrong on here).

Maybe it was a minor haplogroup in Neolithic Greece. Its frequence was increased significantly in Greece and Balkans when Indo-Europeans arrived. Proto-Greeks had some CHG and this explains why they carried this haplogroup. In general it exists mostly in Caucasus, West Asia and Mediterranean. It decreases as we go to northern Europe.