Turks of Aegean shores, Greek islanders, mainland Greeks?

[princeton90]

How distant are these three populations, genetically? Someone on Reddit told Turks of Aegean shores are mainly assimilated Greeks long time ago but I don’t know.

[princeton90]

Bump

[Kaspias]

I have been into genetics for almost five years and since the beginning, people claim Western Turks are "assimilated Greeks" while in fact Turkic admixture peaks in the West. Perhaps it is time to search what is the truth before argue about it. It is easy to find that information nowadays.

[Zeno]

I have been into genetics for almost five years and since the beginning, people claim Western Turks are "assimilated Greeks" while in fact Turkic admixture peaks in the West. Perhaps it is time to search what is the truth before argue about it. It is easy to find that information nowadays.

Don't western Turks have a significant, really significant European admixture, which is Greek in its majority tho?

[catgeorge]

To mainland Greece very distant - to Greek islands and Greek refugees of the 1920's share a significant west asian/anatolian admixture.

Kaspias is one sandwich short of a picnic.

[Peloponnesian pride]

I have been into genetics for almost five years and since the beginning, people claim Western Turks are "assimilated Greeks" while in fact Turkic admixture peaks in the West. Perhaps it is time to search what is the truth before argue about it. It is easy to find that information nowadays.

You seem cool guy,so i will be serious.And if i am wrong and you prove it to me i will say it.
But when there are "turks" of med pheno,when many of the genitsars were greek,when in the past in the west turkey there were there many many greeks,you don't believe that the modern day westerns turks have a high amount of greek dna ?
And there are even more proofs.

[Kaspias]

Don't western Turks have a significant, really significant European admixture, which is Greek in its majority tho?

Yes, they have.


You seem cool guy,so i will be serious.And if i am wrong and you prove it to me i will say it.
But when there are "turks" of med pheno,when many of the genitsars were greek,when in the past in the west turkey there were there many many greeks,you don't believe that the modern day westerns turks have a high amount of greek dna ?
And there are even more proofs.

Let me explain.

What is the definition of Greek DNA? If it means former Greek speaker then whole Anatolia has at least 50% Greek DNA. If it means Mycenaean then only Western parts have it, because there were legit ethnic Greek settlements in the Aegean region despite inner Anatolia had been just Hellenized. In any chance, Western Turks carry a big chunk of Greek DNA. Actually this was what I had been claiming while people say Turks are a mix of Armenians and Central Asians. No, Turks are a mix of Greeks and Central Asians.

But does it mean they are assimilated Greeks? I don't think so. There is a mass-mixing of Turks and Greeks in medieval which resulted in modern Turkish ethnogenesis, and Western Turks are the community that carries the most Turkic admixture in Anatolia, up to 50%. Assimilated should mean 100% Greek who speak Turkish and become Muslim despite don't have any of Turkic DNA.

[Zeno]

Yes, they have.



Let me explain.

What is the definition of Greek DNA? If it means former Greek speaker then whole Anatolia has at least 50% Greek DNA. If it means Mycenaean then only Western parts have it, because there were legit ethnic Greek settlements in the Aegean region despite inner Anatolia had been just Hellenized. In any chance, Western Turks carry a big chunk of Greek DNA. Actually this was what I had been claiming while people say Turks are a mix of Armenians and Central Asians. No, Turks are a mix of Greeks and Central Asians.

But does it mean they are assimilated Greeks? I don't think so. There is a mass-mixing of Turks and Greeks in medieval which resulted in modern Turkish ethnogenesis, and Western Turks are the community that carries the most Turkic admixture in Anatolia, up to 50%. Assimilated should mean 100% Greek who speak Turkish and become Muslim despite don't have any of Turkic DNA.

Fair enough. Accurate explanation. And, what do you mean by "Greek speaker"? You mean ethnic Greeks, who later mixed with the Turkics?

[catgeorge]

Kaspias continues to be an insideous clown ask him to send Luca Cavalli Sforza an email and ask what Greek DNA is.

[Kyp]

not very related

[itilvolga]

Aegean Turks have too much Turkic admixture to be called as “assimilated Greek” but yeah, indeed there’s a good amount of Greek admixture among Aegean Turks.

[ShereKhan]

The main stock of turks is something between armenoid(continental) and cypriot(near the shore), not greek, when was the last time you saw greek faces in Turkey?Never.

Meanwhile this is one of the main faces you see in Turkey everyday

https://ia.tmgrup.com.tr/5aa1c4/555/370/0/0/555/370?u=https://i.tmgrup.com.tr/fikriyat/2019/08/31/tarih-sahnesinde-ulu-hakan-sultan-abdulhamid-1567244275566.jpg

50% greek 50% turkic according to our expert on turkic matters, Kaspias

[Kyp]

They are still more Eastern shifted:

Distance to: Turk_Izmir
14.84405268 Kurd_Kurmanji
16.09557082 Iran_Khorasan
16.32297767 Kurd_Sorani
16.84586003 Greek_Crete
17.55885247 Turkmens
18.61211971 Greek_Cappadocia
23.15567749 Greek
23.62433703 Greek_Pontus

Distance to: Turk_Aydin
14.89638211 Greek_Crete
15.95251391 Kurd_Kurmanji
16.82090366 Greek_Cappadocia
17.49794845 Kurd_Sorani
18.24072915 Iran_Khorasan
19.93963139 Turkmens
21.43183147 Greek
22.41760246 Greek_Pontus


Mainland ancestry starts to increase in Northwest. What is real Greek I can't discuss as I have no knowledge on this issue.

[Peloponnesian pride]

The main stock of turks is something between armenoid(continental) and cypriot(near the shore), not greek, when was the last time you saw greek faces in Turkey?Never.

Meanwhile this is one of the main faces you see in Turkey everyday

https://ia.tmgrup.com.tr/5aa1c4/555/370/0/0/555/370?u=https://i.tmgrup.com.tr/fikriyat/2019/08/31/tarih-sahnesinde-ulu-hakan-sultan-abdulhamid-1567244275566.jpg

50% greek 50% turkic according to our expert on turkic matters, Kaspias

I have seen an article about the turks and this article says that the majority are armenoids.But there are also meds there,mostly in the west turkey.This people have high amount of greek dna.

[Kaspias]

Fair enough. Accurate explanation. And, what do you mean by "Greek speaker"? You mean ethnic Greeks, who later mixed with the Turkics?

Yes. I evaluated them as Greek speakers because we are not sure if they really carry Myceneaen heritage or not and even if they, it is very small.

I prepared a PCA to illustrate the case. Check how close Western Turks to Gokturk(Turkic Khanate) despite sharing 50% of Greek heritage with Greek samples.

https://i.ibb.co/1MPnvwT/PCA1.png
https://i.ibb.co/mz39sK4/PCA2-1.png

[Renekton]

Sub.

[Zeno]

Yes. I evaluated them as Greek speakers because we are not sure if they really carry Myceneaen heritage or not and even if they, it is very small.

I prepared a PCA to illustrate the case. Check how close Western Turks to Gokturk(Turkic Khanate) despite sharing 50% of Greek heritage with Greek samples.

https://i.ibb.co/1MPnvwT/PCA1.png
https://i.ibb.co/mz39sK4/PCA2-1.png

So, ethnic Greek heritage is widespread?

[Kamal900]

No. Turkish people are basically genetically modelled as half Central Asiatic Turkic people and half Anatolians, and the Greek ancestry in Turks is small at best, esp the Western Turkish people. Central Anatolian and Pontic Greeks cluster much more closely with Turks and other west asiatics namely Caucasians than to Greeks as a whole while Cypriots cluster much more closely with the Druze and Syria Jews than they do with the mainland.

[Kaspias]

So, ethnic Greek heritage is widespread?

Of course. Greek and Turkish ethnicities resemble(thanks to imperial-founder effect on both) each other and include many people from different genetic backgrounds. For example, Germans are closer to Russians and Ukrainians than Northern Greeks to Trabzon and Anatolian Greeks:

Distance to: German
0.05644546 Ukrainian
0.06723504 Russian_Smolensk

Distance to: Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08286731 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.10891634 Greek_Trabzon

And the same goes for Turks:

Distance to: Turkish_Deliorman
0.08064563 Turkish_Central
0.09687087 Turkish_East

[Zeno]

Of course. Greek and Turkish ethnicities resemble(thanks to imperial-founder effect on both) each other and include many people from different genetic backgrounds. For example, Germans are closer to Russians and Ukrainians than Northern Greeks to Trabzon and Anatolian Greeks:

Distance to: German
0.05644546 Ukrainian
0.06723504 Russian_Smolensk

Distance to: Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08286731 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.10891634 Greek_Trabzon

And the same goes for Turks:

Distance to: Turkish_Deliorman
0.08064563 Turkish_Central
0.09687087 Turkish_East

But Greeks themselves don't have significant West Asian in them at all except the Pontics.

[Sora]

Aegean Turks have the highest Central Asian DNA and their non-Turkic ancestry is mostly Greek(closest to Mainland & Islanders). Because Greeks mainly settled in Aegea during Hellenization of Anatolia at 4th century BC. Also there were many Greek colonies almost everywhere in Anatolia, including Eastern Black Sea but Pontic Greeks are mainly Hellenized native Caucasians.

Then Turkification... When Turks came to Anatolia(especially in first Beyliks & Seljuk period), mixing was rare. But especially in second Beyliks & Ottoman period, a lot of non-Muslims became Muslim and lots of mixings happened. When we look at modern (Anatolian) Turkish results, it's obvious modern Turks are mixture of Oghuz Turkic + Anatolian(mainly Greek-speaker) + some Iranian(in some individuals due to high Gedrosia & South Asian). But Aegean Turks can be modelled roughly as 50% Oghuz Turkic + 50% Greek due to high Mongoloid and European ancestry they have more than other Turks.

*I'm saying them according to documents and genetic results I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hapanuwa]

I'm Turkish from the eastern Aegean (so not from the shores) and these were my distances:

Distance to: Hapanuwa_scaled
0.02957951 Turkish_North
0.02998560 Turkish_Central
0.03074841 Turkish_Istanbul
0.03099855 Turkish_Aydin
0.03200710 Turkish_Balikesir
0.03259897 Turkish_Northwest
0.03457727 Turkish_Southwest
0.03858439 Turkish_Adana
0.03908261 Turkish_South
0.04022503 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05293618 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05542821 Azeri
0.05779079 Azeri_Turkey
0.05872379 Turkish_East
0.05883111 Kumyk
0.05898135 Kabardin
0.06145890 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06509345 Abazin
0.06514907 Cherkes
0.06530046 Karachay
0.06560158 Circassian
0.06685415 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06692696 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06813410 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06916515 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07074870 Balkar
0.07075192 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.07181428 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.07299873 Ezid
0.07374110 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.07460248 Roma_Madrid
0.07530668 Adygei
0.07640529 Greek_Crete
0.07671711 Ingushian
0.07757843 Iranian_Fars
0.07772325 Kurdish
0.07810150 Greek_Kos
0.07835223 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.07870179 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07903267 North_Ossetian
0.07907825 Greek_Izmir

[Peloponnesian pride]

I'm Turkish from the eastern Aegean (so not from the shores) and these were my distances:

Distance to: Hapanuwa_scaled
0.02957951 Turkish_North
0.02998560 Turkish_Central
0.03074841 Turkish_Istanbul
0.03099855 Turkish_Aydin
0.03200710 Turkish_Balikesir
0.03259897 Turkish_Northwest
0.03457727 Turkish_Southwest
0.03858439 Turkish_Adana
0.03908261 Turkish_South
0.04022503 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05293618 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05542821 Azeri
0.05779079 Azeri_Turkey
0.05872379 Turkish_East
0.05883111 Kumyk
0.05898135 Kabardin
0.06145890 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06509345 Abazin
0.06514907 Cherkes
0.06530046 Karachay
0.06560158 Circassian
0.06685415 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06692696 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.06813410 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06916515 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07074870 Balkar
0.07075192 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.07181428 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.07299873 Ezid
0.07374110 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.07460248 Roma_Madrid
0.07530668 Adygei
0.07640529 Greek_Crete
0.07671711 Ingushian
0.07757843 Iranian_Fars
0.07772325 Kurdish
0.07810150 Greek_Kos
0.07835223 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.07870179 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.07903267 North_Ossetian
0.07907825 Greek_Izmir

Because i don't know this kind of shit,it means that the upper the number the more close is your dna to this districts?

[Zeno]

Aegean Turks have the highest Central Asian DNA and their non-Turkic ancestry is mostly Greek(closest to Mainland & Islanders). Because Greeks mainly settled in Aegea during Hellenization of Anatolia at 4th century BC. Also there were many Greek colonies almost everywhere in Anatolia, including Eastern Black Sea but Pontic Greeks are mainly Hellenized native Caucasians.

Then Turkification... When Turks came to Anatolia(especially in first Beyliks & Seljuk period), mixing was rare. But especially in second Beyliks & Ottoman period, a lot of non-Muslims became Muslim and lots of mixings happened. When we look at modern (Anatolian) Turkish results, it's obvious modern Turks are mixture of Oghuz Turkic + Anatolian(mainly Greek-speaker) + some Iranian(in some individuals due to high Gedrosia & South Asian). But Aegean Turks can be modelled roughly as 50% Oghuz Turkic + 50% Greek due to high Mongoloid and European ancestry they have more than other Turks.

*I'm saying them according to documents and genetic results I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I wouldn't say Pontics are mainly Hellenised Caucasians. But they've got a significant chunk of West Asian in them.

[Kamal900]

Aegean Turks have the highest Central Asian DNA and their non-Turkic ancestry is mostly Greek(closest to Mainland & Islanders). Because Greeks mainly settled in Aegea during Hellenization of Anatolia at 4th century BC. Also there were many Greek colonies almost everywhere in Anatolia, including Eastern Black Sea but Pontic Greeks are mainly Hellenized native Caucasians.

Then Turkification... When Turks came to Anatolia(especially in first Beyliks & Seljuk period), mixing was rare. But especially in second Beyliks & Ottoman period, a lot of non-Muslims became Muslim and lots of mixings happened. When we look at modern (Anatolian) Turkish results, it's obvious modern Turks are mixture of Oghuz Turkic + Anatolian(mainly Greek-speaker) + some Iranian(in some individuals due to high Gedrosia & South Asian). But Aegean Turks can be modelled roughly as 50% Oghuz Turkic + 50% Greek due to high Mongoloid and European ancestry they have more than other Turks.

*I'm saying them according to documents and genetic results I've seen. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The Oghuz Turkic peoples weren't fully Mongoloids. In fact, far from it really since they were already mixed with the local PIE populations of Asia, namely Iranics and possible the Tocharians as well, when they first arrived in the middle east. I mean, western Turkish people are modeled as 50% Turkmen and 50% Greek, yes, but that doesn't mean that they're directly descendants from either group but rather to model their genome. In other words, we have Anatolian DNA from the Bronze and Iron age periods, and they don't cluster with Greeks but rather with west Asiatics instead. In fact, there were immigrants from Anatolia to the Levant according to the 2020 study on the ancient Canaanites along with the immigrants from the Caucasus and Iran as well. Canaanites were genetically very similar to today's Arabians back in the early bronze age, but the later immigration and admixtures from west Asiatic regions to the Levant made the Canaanites more west asiatic shifted which is why I myself have an ancient Anatolian female relative according to MyTrueAncestry along with a relative from the Kingdom of Ururtu and the Minoans(they're modeled as half Levantines half Sardinians, and they cluster the closest to Western Jewry and Sicilians). Western Anatolian Greeks are indeed descendants of the Greek colonists from the mainland judging by their DNA while the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots are mostly assimilated natives with some ancient Greek admixture in them(around 25 to 30% on average).

[Hapanuwa]

Because i don't know this kind of shit,it means that the upper the number the more close is your dna to this districts?

Correct. Lower distance (so lower number) means that I'm closer to that sample/region

[Sora]

Because i don't know this kind of shit,it means that the upper the number the more close is your dna to this districts?

Indeed lowermost the number is the closest to your dna. For example:
Distance: Sora(it's just an example, I haven't taken dna test yet)
0.248 Turkish_Anatolia
0.452 Greek_Crete
0.793 Kurdish
1.553 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

In that example, Sora is closer to Turkish_Anatolia and Greek_Crete more and less closer to Kurdish and Turkmen_Uzbekistan

[kundur]

Most Turks I know, if they were to make the choice between having either a Greek grandmother or a Persian/Armenian one, they would still think the Greeks are the ''lesser of the evil''. Having geopolitical issues with Greece today, or even having a war with Greece is another issue.
Thus, trying to Armenize what's not, that's pointless.

Turks owe their success to their north east asian genes.
When you look at the Middle East, Balkans, Caucasus, the Turks are by far the most advanced folk, with the strongest state, strongest army, strongest institutions, strongest industrial-military potential (weapons development and production).
At an era when the epicenter of human progress and technological breakthrough are shifting from the Atlantic to the Asia Pacific region (China, Japan, Singapore, S.Korea, Hong Kong being now leader in many fields), it would not be wrong to pretend that the Turks owe their success to their Eastern genetic legacy.

[placebo]

The main stock of turks is something between armenoid(continental) and cypriot(near the shore), not greek, when was the last time you saw greek faces in Turkey?Never.

Meanwhile this is one of the main faces you see in Turkey everyday

https://ia.tmgrup.com.tr/5aa1c4/555/370/0/0/555/370?u=https://i.tmgrup.com.tr/fikriyat/2019/08/31/tarih-sahnesinde-ulu-hakan-sultan-abdulhamid-1567244275566.jpg

50% greek 50% turkic according to our expert on turkic matters, Kaspias

:DDDD

If I didn't live in Turkey I'd say you're right but I never see the armenoid face type you throw in my daily life. Sometimes I see faces with a slight armenoid effect but these are very few too. The Armenoid influence is mostly seen in the eastern part, and especially among those who identify themselves as Kurdish, Zaza and another ethnicity. Taurid certainly exists, but it's mostly seen in the Anatolid type.

I think these are the most common phenotypes in Turkey:

Anatolid, Turanid, Pontid.

[Bender1999]

I wouldn't say Pontics are mainly Hellenised Caucasians. But they've got a significant chunk of West Asian in them.

They have nearly no European, even Cappadocian Greeks have a bit more.

[Zeno]

They have nearly no European, even Cappadocian Greeks have a bit more.

No, Kamal correctly pointed out they have lots of Mycenaean, 30%.

[Bender1999]

No, Kamal correctly pointed out they have lots of Mycenaean, 30%.

They are nearly the same like Lazes/ Armenians.

[Kyp]

Indeed lowermost the number is the closest to your dna. For example:
Distance: Sora(it's just an example, I haven't taken dna test yet)
0.248 Turkish_Anatolia
0.452 Greek_Crete
0.793 Kurdish
1.553 Turkmen_Uzbekistan

In that example, Sora is closer to Turkish_Anatolia and Greek_Crete more and less closer to Kurdish and Turkmen_Uzbekistan

you will be closer to Kurds than to Crete, especially with your Meshketian & Central Turkish ancestry. Even Izmir is closer to Kurds than to Crete on average

[Bender1999]

A Westanatolian native, pure Izmir result:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?231231-%26%23304%3Bzmir-Turk-GEDmatch-results

This person doesn’t really differ from other Turks, most Turkics are SW and NW Anatolian Turks, often high mongoloid people there are members of specific subgroups like Yörüks. „Normal“ Western Turks are between 12-14%.

[Kyp]

A Westanatolian native, pure Izmir result:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?231231-%26%23304%3Bzmir-Turk-GEDmatch-results

This person doesn’t really differ from other Turks, most Turkics are SW and NW Anatolian Turks, often high mongoloid people there are members of specific subgroups like Yörüks. „Normal“ Western Turks are between 12-14%.


Western populations nowhere to be seen:

Distance to: Turk_Izmir1
5.05421606 Turk_South
6.09547373 Turk_Anatolia
6.31365188 Turk_Southwest
6.60842644 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
6.94061236 Turk_Central_West
6.99909994 Yoruk
7.53708166 Turk_West_BlackSea
7.69133278 Turk_Northwest
7.88667230 Turk_Central_East
7.91791008 Turk_Southeast
8.36013158 Azerbaijani
8.87031003 Azerbaijani_Turkey
9.82981689 Azerbaijani_Iran
12.74685059 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
13.25403712 Kurd_Kurmanji
13.29488623 Karachay
13.38052316 Turkmen_Iran
13.52632618 Turk_East
13.62539908 Turkmen_Iraq
13.79828250 Qumuq
13.94873829 Zaza
14.02365502 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
14.26190029 Iran_Khorasan
14.33946303 Balkar
14.66581740 Talysh_Azerbaijan
14.76838515 Kurd_Sorani
14.98423171 Ingush
15.71649134 Turkmens
16.22316554 Ossetian
16.27538018 Kumyks
16.31846194 Circassian
16.36323318 Iranian_Fars

Target: Turk_Izmir1
Distance: 2.2692% / 2.26915972 | ADC: 0.25x
51.2 Yoruk
19.6 Qumuq
17.0 Uzbekistan_Jews
5.8 Syrians
3.2 Selkup
3.0 Balkar
0.2 Nogais

[Leto]

Let's not exaggerate. An average Anatolian Turk is not 50% "Central Asian" but more like 25% Oghuz/Medieval Turkic.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Western populations nowhere to be seen:

Distance to: Turk_Izmir1
5.05421606 Turk_South
6.09547373 Turk_Anatolia
6.31365188 Turk_Southwest
6.60842644 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
6.94061236 Turk_Central_West
6.99909994 Yoruk
7.53708166 Turk_West_BlackSea
7.69133278 Turk_Northwest
7.88667230 Turk_Central_East
7.91791008 Turk_Southeast
8.36013158 Azerbaijani
8.87031003 Azerbaijani_Turkey
9.82981689 Azerbaijani_Iran
12.74685059 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
13.25403712 Kurd_Kurmanji
13.29488623 Karachay
13.38052316 Turkmen_Iran
13.52632618 Turk_East
13.62539908 Turkmen_Iraq
13.79828250 Qumuq
13.94873829 Zaza
14.02365502 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
14.26190029 Iran_Khorasan
14.33946303 Balkar
14.66581740 Talysh_Azerbaijan
14.76838515 Kurd_Sorani
14.98423171 Ingush
15.71649134 Turkmens
16.22316554 Ossetian
16.27538018 Kumyks
16.31846194 Circassian
16.36323318 Iranian_Fars

Target: Turk_Izmir1
Distance: 2.2692% / 2.26915972 | ADC: 0.25x
51.2 Yoruk
19.6 Qumuq
17.0 Uzbekistan_Jews
5.8 Syrians
3.2 Selkup
3.0 Balkar
0.2 Nogais

Kaspias has already spoken to this in another thread. That for Turks, the most accurate results come from unscaled coordinates because from his experience it's absolutely impossible a Western Aegean Turk would ever be genetically closer to Caucasus groups than Greeks.

[Zeno]

They are nearly the same like Lazes/ Armenians.

Nop.

[Kyp]

Kaspias has already spoken to this in another thread. That for Turks, the most accurate results come from unscaled coordinates because from his experience it's absolutely impossible a Western Aegean Turk would ever be genetically closer to Caucasus groups than Greeks.

I have my problems with the dataset for the G25 averages because they are very variable for every ethnicity. The old calculators have problems too, but at least we can be sure of the samples used.

Anyway here one of the Aegean Turks (unscaled):


Distance to: Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18596
0.01594522 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest1
0.01653663 Turkish_North:Turkish_North9
0.01698529 Azeri:AZR-1012
0.01737297 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest2
0.01763009 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest1
0.01773189 Turkish_South:Turkish_South6
0.01779831 Turkish_South:Turkish_South2
0.01781039 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central6
0.01816645 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18636
0.01916116 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central13
0.01934787 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest7
0.01939820 Turkish_South:Turkish_South3
0.01942550 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24392
0.01943090 Azeri:AZR-1010
0.01947845 Azeri:azerE3
0.01952895 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest8
0.01979975 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest4
0.01992812 Azeri:AZR-1018
0.01995846 Turkish_North:Turkish_North7
0.02017944 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16653
0.02020817 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central4
0.02022226 Turkish_North:Turkish_North2
0.02032904 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central7
0.02045923 Turkish_South:Turkish_South5
0.02070869 Turkish_East:Turkish_East8
0.02073427 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest3
0.02094994 Azeri:AZR-1058
0.02103901 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16887
0.02104020 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16837
0.02104994 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central8
0.02113220 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central5
0.02121509 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest10
0.02135626 Turkmen:TUR043
0.02138294 Turkmen:TUR032
0.02139089 Turkish_South:Turkish_South7
0.02140864 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri23549
0.02163701 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18873
0.02174327 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul25081
0.02174994 Turkish_South:Turkish_South1
0.02175132 Turkmen:TUR025
0.02181834 Talysh_Azerbaijan:Talysh1
0.02189087 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest9
0.02190662 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24075
0.02194015 Azeri:azerE6
0.02196452 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central10
0.02203928 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central12
0.02205652 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest2
0.02205856 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest5
0.02211583 Turkmen:TUR048
0.02218152 Turkish_South:Turkish_South4
0.02220135 Turkish_North:Turkish_North1
0.02221824 Turkish_Adana:Adana23112
0.02240335 Turkish_Adana:Adana23117
0.02251333 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central2
0.02252820 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central3
0.02257787 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest11
0.02270242 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest7
0.02270352 Georgian_Jew:GeorgianJew1883
0.02278421 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16790
0.02287007 Turkmen:TUR026
0.02289105 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul17778
0.02292335 Azeri:AZR-1054
0.02294602 Turkmen:TUR008
0.02294798 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24266
0.02296933 Turkmen:TUR042
0.02313439 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri23892
0.02317758 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul19708
0.02319720 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest3
0.02321487 Turkmen:TUR035
0.02331888 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest5
0.02337092 Azeri_Dagestan:AZR535_azer_Dagestan
0.02340855 Turkish_North:Turkish_North4
0.02349000 Azeri_Dagestan:AZR-0864
0.02349553 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24032
0.02349936 Azeri_Turkey:Azeri_Turkey2
0.02357393 Turkish_North:Turkish_North5
0.02359407 Turkish_North:Turkish_North8
0.02398604 Turkish_Adana:Adana23114
0.02398625 Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_10
0.02403872 Turkmen:TUR051
0.02405182 Turkish_East:Turkish_East3
0.02417830 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24402
0.02418967 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18419
0.02427427 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest6
0.02429239 Azeri:azerB8
0.02433578 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18784
0.02439857 Turkmen_Uzbekistan:UZB101_turkmen
0.02443317 Turkmen:TUR054
0.02452203 Turkish_Rumeli:Turkish_Kircaali3
0.02452794 Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_3
0.02454588 Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_7
0.02463493 Azeri:azerB64
0.02467286 Iranian_Zoroastrian:I001
0.02473014 Turkish_East:Turkish_East5
0.02479556 Ezid:EZI-074
0.02479738 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul20010
0.02480242 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18483
0.02481753 Armenian:GS000013745
0.02485377 Turkish_Rumeli:Turkish_Gumulcine1
0.02494113 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central1


Others can be closer to Aegean/Anatolian Greeks or Cypriots. But to Mainland Greeks I seriously doubt. (Except for Turks from Thrace/Edirne etc...)

[PaleoEuropean]

Don't western Turks have a significant, really significant European admixture, which is Greek in its majority tho?

Turkey all around has like 3% Turkic DNA I would assume most would be Armenian, Greek and Romans who just switched culture.

[Bender1999]

Nop.

βεβαίως!

[Rgvgjhvv]

I have my problems with the dataset for the G25 averages because they are very variable for every ethnicity. The old calculators have problems too, but at least we can be sure of the samples used.

Anyway here one of the Aegean Turks (unscaled):


Distance to: Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18596
0.01594522 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest1
0.01653663 Turkish_North:Turkish_North9
0.01698529 Azeri:AZR-1012
0.01737297 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest2
0.01763009 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest1
0.01773189 Turkish_South:Turkish_South6
0.01779831 Turkish_South:Turkish_South2
0.01781039 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central6
0.01816645 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18636
0.01916116 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central13
0.01934787 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest7
0.01939820 Turkish_South:Turkish_South3
0.01942550 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24392
0.01943090 Azeri:AZR-1010
0.01947845 Azeri:azerE3
0.01952895 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest8
0.01979975 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest4
0.01992812 Azeri:AZR-1018
0.01995846 Turkish_North:Turkish_North7
0.02017944 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16653
0.02020817 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central4
0.02022226 Turkish_North:Turkish_North2
0.02032904 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central7
0.02045923 Turkish_South:Turkish_South5
0.02070869 Turkish_East:Turkish_East8
0.02073427 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest3
0.02094994 Azeri:AZR-1058
0.02103901 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16887
0.02104020 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16837
0.02104994 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central8
0.02113220 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central5
0.02121509 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest10
0.02135626 Turkmen:TUR043
0.02138294 Turkmen:TUR032
0.02139089 Turkish_South:Turkish_South7
0.02140864 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri23549
0.02163701 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18873
0.02174327 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul25081
0.02174994 Turkish_South:Turkish_South1
0.02175132 Turkmen:TUR025
0.02181834 Talysh_Azerbaijan:Talysh1
0.02189087 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest9
0.02190662 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24075
0.02194015 Azeri:azerE6
0.02196452 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central10
0.02203928 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central12
0.02205652 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest2
0.02205856 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest5
0.02211583 Turkmen:TUR048
0.02218152 Turkish_South:Turkish_South4
0.02220135 Turkish_North:Turkish_North1
0.02221824 Turkish_Adana:Adana23112
0.02240335 Turkish_Adana:Adana23117
0.02251333 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central2
0.02252820 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central3
0.02257787 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest11
0.02270242 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest7
0.02270352 Georgian_Jew:GeorgianJew1883
0.02278421 Turkish_Balikesir:Balikesir16790
0.02287007 Turkmen:TUR026
0.02289105 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul17778
0.02292335 Azeri:AZR-1054
0.02294602 Turkmen:TUR008
0.02294798 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24266
0.02296933 Turkmen:TUR042
0.02313439 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri23892
0.02317758 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul19708
0.02319720 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest3
0.02321487 Turkmen:TUR035
0.02331888 Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest5
0.02337092 Azeri_Dagestan:AZR535_azer_Dagestan
0.02340855 Turkish_North:Turkish_North4
0.02349000 Azeri_Dagestan:AZR-0864
0.02349553 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24032
0.02349936 Azeri_Turkey:Azeri_Turkey2
0.02357393 Turkish_North:Turkish_North5
0.02359407 Turkish_North:Turkish_North8
0.02398604 Turkish_Adana:Adana23114
0.02398625 Ashkenazi_Russia:Ashk_RU_RU_10
0.02403872 Turkmen:TUR051
0.02405182 Turkish_East:Turkish_East3
0.02417830 Turkish_Kayseri:Kayseri24402
0.02418967 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18419
0.02427427 Turkish_Southwest:Turkish_Southwest6
0.02429239 Azeri:azerB8
0.02433578 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18784
0.02439857 Turkmen_Uzbekistan:UZB101_turkmen
0.02443317 Turkmen:TUR054
0.02452203 Turkish_Rumeli:Turkish_Kircaali3
0.02452794 Ashkenazi_Ukraine:Ashk_UA_UA_3
0.02454588 Ashkenazi_Belarussia:Ashk_BY_BY_7
0.02463493 Azeri:azerB64
0.02467286 Iranian_Zoroastrian:I001
0.02473014 Turkish_East:Turkish_East5
0.02479556 Ezid:EZI-074
0.02479738 Turkish_Istanbul:Istanbul20010
0.02480242 Turkish_Aydin:Aydin18483
0.02481753 Armenian:GS000013745
0.02485377 Turkish_Rumeli:Turkish_Gumulcine1
0.02494113 Turkish_Central:Turkish_Central1


Others can be closer to Aegean/Anatolian Greeks or Cypriots. But to Mainland Greeks I seriously doubt. (Except for Turks from Thrace/Edirne etc...)

Kaspias will know better than me. Can't say too much about it personally tbh.

[Hapanuwa]

When I use unscaled, I'm closer to Italians and even Maltese than mainland Greeks.

Distance to: Hapanuwa
0.01278771 Turkish_Istanbul
0.01437723 Turkish_Central
0.01447471 Turkish_Northwest
0.01520318 Turkish_Balikesir
0.01544930 Turkish_Aydin
0.01571740 Turkish_North
0.01629638 Turkish_South
0.01705858 Turkish_Kayseri
0.01734694 Turkish_Southwest
0.01742548 Turkish_Adana
0.01977316 Turkish_East
0.01977388 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02002565 Greek_Crete
0.02029520 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.02065070 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.02069085 Greek_Kos
0.02074170 Turkish_Rumeli
0.02104619 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.02145337 Italian_Basilicata
0.02164659 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02170694 Greek_Izmir
0.02172042 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.02173827 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02193982 Italian_Campania
0.02210341 Italian_Apulia
0.02244788 Armenian
0.02257642 Azeri
0.02296667 Cypriot
0.02297282 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.02317510 Italian_Calabria
0.02340144 Syrian_Jew
0.02342435 Italian_Molise
0.02355109 Syrian
0.02375034 Italian_Marche
0.02389640 Romaniote_Jew
0.02393863 Georgian_Jew
0.02412277 Lebanese_Druze
0.02427861 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02433276 Maltese
0.02438458 Sicilian_East
0.02446671 Greek_Thessaly
0.02459922 Lebanese_Muslim
0.02464405 Turkish_Deliorman
0.02490398 Italian_Lazio
0.02505112 Druze
0.02512036 Assyrian
0.02537202 Azeri_Turkey
0.02548177 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02549872 Italian_Jew
0.02572189 Italian_Umbria

[Kyp]

When I use unscaled, I'm closer to Italians and even Maltese than mainland Greeks.

Distance to: Hapanuwa
0.01278771 Turkish_Istanbul
0.01437723 Turkish_Central
0.01447471 Turkish_Northwest
0.01520318 Turkish_Balikesir
0.01544930 Turkish_Aydin
0.01571740 Turkish_North
0.01629638 Turkish_South
0.01705858 Turkish_Kayseri
0.01734694 Turkish_Southwest
0.01742548 Turkish_Adana
0.01977316 Turkish_East
0.01977388 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.02002565 Greek_Crete
0.02029520 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.02065070 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.02069085 Greek_Kos
0.02074170 Turkish_Rumeli
0.02104619 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.02145337 Italian_Basilicata
0.02164659 Italian_Abruzzo
0.02170694 Greek_Izmir
0.02172042 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.02173827 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.02193982 Italian_Campania
0.02210341 Italian_Apulia
0.02244788 Armenian
0.02257642 Azeri
0.02296667 Cypriot
0.02297282 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.02317510 Italian_Calabria
0.02340144 Syrian_Jew
0.02342435 Italian_Molise
0.02355109 Syrian
0.02375034 Italian_Marche
0.02389640 Romaniote_Jew
0.02393863 Georgian_Jew
0.02412277 Lebanese_Druze
0.02427861 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02433276 Maltese
0.02438458 Sicilian_East
0.02446671 Greek_Thessaly
0.02459922 Lebanese_Muslim
0.02464405 Turkish_Deliorman
0.02490398 Italian_Lazio
0.02505112 Druze
0.02512036 Assyrian
0.02537202 Azeri_Turkey
0.02548177 Greek_Peloponnese
0.02549872 Italian_Jew
0.02572189 Italian_Umbria

Do you score Jewish in commercial test?

[Hapanuwa]

Do you score Jewish in commercial test?

No, my results were:

Asia:
West Asian: 35,3%
Central Asian: 9,9%
East Asian- Eskimo/Inuit: 0,8%

Europe:
Italian: 23,5%
Greek and South Italian: 14,3%
North-West Europe: 7%

Middle East: 9,2%

[Kyp]

No, my results were:

Asia:
West Asian: 35,3%
Central Asian: 9,9%
East Asian- Eskimo/Inuit: 0,8%

Europe:
Italian: 23,5%
Greek and South Italian: 14,3%
North-West Europe: 7%

Middle East: 9,2%

Your results (besides your turkic side) always seems very Med and Levantine like.

[Narration]

Greek islands are geographically isolated from each other. Therefore, each island has its own genetic cluster. As for Turks living on Aegean coasts, they score too East Eurasian to be just assimilated Greeks.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR53Yga1wxtauYkgsBQBhfdgOFqSUV nwpC7ug&usqp=CAU

[Aren]

Kaspias has already spoken to this in another thread. That for Turks, the most accurate results come from unscaled coordinates because from his experience it's absolutely impossible a Western Aegean Turk would ever be genetically closer to Caucasus groups than Greeks.

And therefore he is right? What is this logic?

Everyone uses scaled coordinates and even David himself has said scaled coordinates gives results close to what one finds in peer reviewed studies.

[Rgvgjhvv]

And therefore he is right? What is this logic?

Everyone uses scaled coordinates and even David himself has said scaled coordinates gives results close to what one finds in peer reviewed studies.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?328266-Update-on-Balkan-Turk-Samples-in-G25

[brennus dux gallorum]

How distant are these three populations, genetically? Someone on Reddit told Turks of Aegean shores are mainly assimilated Greeks long time ago but I don’t know.

Theyre not
https://www.nevgen.org/PCA%20charts/PCA%20Europe%20and%20vicinity%20axis%202-1%20a.png

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9a917575697beb254c992a5f27d2fe1c.webp

Turkish people are a mix of central and west asian people with no connections to southern Europe

Mugla, next door to Greek islands like rhodes is the most "mongolian" part of Turkey

Ironically the most "assimilated" natives in turkey are in eastern turkey

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greek islands are geographically isolated from each other. Therefore, each island has its own genetic cluster. As for Turks living on Aegean coasts, they score too East Eurasian to be just assimilated Greeks.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR53Yga1wxtauYkgsBQBhfdgOFqSUV nwpC7ug&usqp=CAU

Sit i just posted the same map before even seeing your post

[Hapanuwa]

Your results (besides your turkic side) always seems very Med and Levantine like.

Must be the strong Latin crusader genes running through my veins ;)

[Bender1999]

Ironically the most "assimilated" natives in turkey are in eastern turkey

Can you tell me why it is ironic? Besides of specific subgroups(for instance Yörüks and Tahtaci?) Westanatolian Turks show 10-14%, Southern 10-12%, Northern and Central parts around 7-10% and Eastern around 5-10% east eurasian, ethnic Turks of course. They are not really a big difference if we say the average for whole Turkey is around 10%. Also eastern Anatolia is and was always heterogeneous, Turks weren’t the majority in many places and there are even Turkish tribes which are assimilated into non turkish groups. The majority of eastern Turks aren’t assimilated there, they are mixed. The ethnogenesis of Western/Central Anatolian Turks ended hundreds of years ago, while in eastern parts Turks still mix with non Turks.

[Sora]

you will be closer to Kurds than to Crete, especially with your Meshketian & Central Turkish ancestry. Even Izmir is closer to Kurds than to Crete on average

I know. I just made it up to give an example :D

Even with my 25% Chepni ancestry, I can be closer even to Ashgabat Turkmens or Caucasus Turkic people than Greeks(especially to Mainlanders & Islanders).

[Kyp]

Ironically the most "assimilated" natives in turkey are in eastern turkey


Eastern Anatolia has a complex history it's not surprising if you know about the history.
Eastern Turkmens mostly went into Iran and are what we know as Azerbaijanis today. Also prior to that Mongol and Timurid invasion pushed a lot of Central Anatolian Turkmens to the West and South additionally. Some (from the South and Syria) went back into Eastern/Central regions but those (as I have said) went into Iran/Azerbaijan later. That's why Turkmen ancestry is sparce in the East and is mostly find where there are Azeri settlements but they are not numberous too in Turkey.

[Faklon]

As I told you in the other thread, most Tukrs living in the Aegean shores are not native.

Most of these cities used to be Greek speaking until 1922, it is Greek nationalism that still considers these cities Greek so the local population must be Greekish and Turkish nationalism that denies that it destroyed some of the best cities of the Mediterranean. The people that lived there used to have a cultural overlap with Greek Aegean islanders since antiquity. Nowadays, these cities are full of transplanted Turks.

[Zeno]

As I told you in the other thread, most Tukrs living in the Aegean shores are not native.

Most of these cities used to be Greek speaking until 1922, it is Greek nationalism that still considers these cities Greek so the local population must be Greekish and Turkish nationalism that denies that it destroyed some of the best cities of the Mediterranean. The people that lived there used to have a cultural overlap with Greek Aegean islanders since antiquity. Nowadays, these cities are full of transplanted Turks.

Plus the fact that western Turks themselves have intense levels of ethnic Greek ancestry.

[kundur]

Eastern Anatolia has a complex history it's not surprising if you know about the history.
Eastern Turkmens mostly went into Iran and are what we know as Azerbaijanis today. Also prior to that Mongol and Timurid invasion pushed a lot of Central Anatolian Turkmens to the West and South additionally. Some (from the South and Syria) went back into Eastern/Central regions but those (as I have said) went into Iran/Azerbaijan later. That's why Turkmen ancestry is sparce in the East and is mostly find where there are Azeri settlements but they are not numberous too in Turkey.

Mongol onslaught and Turkmens pushed constantly westwards ahead the progressing hordes was one of the reasons. Actually, Mugla mountains were furthest regions to escape from the Great Mongol Khan, beyond there was the sea. So, they anyway sent embassy and acknowledge supremacy of the Khan based in Beijing. That is also how the Ottomans started as Mongol vassals in 1299.
Kipchaks went to Hungary, the Hungarian king refused to return them to Mongols, in turn Mongols destroyed Hungary killing no less than half of her population.

Modern Eastern Turkey is full of Kurds and Muslim Armenians. Safavids and Twelver Shia fanaticism also played since many brainwashed Eastern Turks, being dragged by Shia propaganda, left their homes (or moved their tents) to what has later become Azerbaijan. The Ottomans were losing so much population that at the turn of the 16th century, moving to or from Iran was banned and was punishable with death penality.

As a result, the Kurds (who can be viewed as Sunni Persians, like Pashtuns) and Armenians ended up being majority in many eastern regions of Turkey. With finally Kurds massacring the Christian Armenians during 1915 hostilities.

In turn, NW parts of Iran were turkified.

[Faklon]

Plus the fact that western Turks themselves have intense levels of ethnic Greek ancestry.

Repeat this and this documentary stays at 8k views.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuSGgz57Co

Turks are not native to the Aegean shores

[Zeno]

Repeat this and this documentary stays at 8k views.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuSGgz57Co

Turks are not native to the Aegean shores

My bad, spoiled the documentary