Modeling ancients and modern Kurds

[Halgurd]

Created a basic model consisting of Barcin, Yamnaya, Ganj Dareh N etc. I included the Alalakh outlier just for comparison, because it is the only other sample in the region from the Bronze Age that has a Yamnaya like signature.

As you can see, the copper age sample mostly resembles the natives of the region before the incursion of Indo Europeans into West Asia. In the Bronze Age, however, we get a sample that is more than 50% Yamnaya. This sample was discussed previously, and was originally dated to the chalcolithic but this dating was disputed by Davidski. I guess this is why he has labeled it as a Bronze Age sample. It’s a very important sample because this is the region where the ancestors of Kurds and Persians may possibility originate.

According to tradition, the earliest Iranic immigrants from Central Asia must have settled in this region. Lake Urmia was previously known as lake Matiene, which is the region where the Parsua (early Persians) and Medes are first mentioned.

Could this sample then be what the early settled Iranic populations looked like before mixing with the natives? Or perhaps this sample is already a 50% 50% mix.

The model shows that modern Kurds mostly resemble the Iron Age samples, who were (probably) partially descended from the Bronze Age 50% Yamnaya like sample. The Medes were first mentioned between 900BC and 800BC by the Assyrians, and they were mentioned as living in the exact same region. Perhaps these 2 iron age samples are actually Medes, and the Kurds still mostly resemble them.

https://i.ibb.co/z51SsKX/74-C04-AFC-94-E0-433-F-A40-E-5-A00384487-E1.jpg

[Kyp]

Can you post the Bronze Age sample? And is it on Gedmatch? Any more information on it?

Can you post the whole model too?

[Halgurd]

Can you post the Bronze Age sample? And is it on Gedmatch? Any more information on it?

Can you post the whole model too?

The model is saved on my laptop at home, but I will send you the code tonight so you can do some runs yourself.

The bronze age sample from Haji Firuz is:

IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA,0.113823,0.117801,-0.003394,0.034884,-0.020927,0.019801,0.00893,0.000692,-0.045813,-0.036265,0.012017,0.007643,-0.004162,-0.012248,0.019815,0.001193,-0.007432,0.00038,-0.004902,0.002751,-0.000749,-0.00371,0.001356,0.005061,0.000958

[Halgurd]

Also that sample is discussed here

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-hajji-firuz-fiasco.html?m=1

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/04/likely-yamnaya-incursions-into.html?m=1

[Aren]

Decent run but you forgot CHG. Also a small misstake but it was the Iron Age sample from Hajji Firuz that was first dated to the Copper Age, not the heavily Steppe shifted female from the Bronze Age.

The two Iron Age samples are interesting, from the time frame and their location one would assume Mannean. The one from Hajji Firuz is undoubtedly not Iranic, it's too early (around 1100BC). Even the Hasanlu sample I find it hard to see him as an early Iranic speaker. His subclade of R1b, R-Y23838* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23838/) isn't really convincing me as being Iranian.

[Halgurd]

Decent run but you forgot CHG. Also a small misstake but it was the Iron Age sample from Hajji Firuz that was first dated to the Copper Age, not the heavily Steppe shifted female from the Bronze Age.

The two Iron Age samples are interesting, from the time frame and their location one would assume Mannean. The one from Hajji Firuz is undoubtedly not Iranic, it's too early (around 1100BC). Even the Hasanlu sample I find it hard to see him as an early Iranic speaker. His subclade of R1b, R-Y23838* (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y23838/) isn't really convincing me as being Iranian.

What would explain their Yamnaya like ancestry, in your opinion? The only other option that I could see would be Hittite, but they didn't venture so far east.

Maybe Iranic speakers arrived earlier than we previously thought?

[Zoro]

Created a basic model consisting of Barcin, Yamnaya, Ganj Dareh N etc. I included the Alalakh outlier just for comparison, because it is the only other sample in the region from the Bronze Age that has a Yamnaya like signature.

As you can see, the copper age sample mostly resembles the natives of the region before the incursion of Indo Europeans into West Asia. In the Bronze Age, however, we get a sample that is more than 50% Yamnaya. This sample was discussed previously, and was originally dated to the chalcolithic but this dating was disputed by Davidski. I guess this is why he has labeled it as a Bronze Age sample. It’s a very important sample because this is the region where the ancestors of Kurds and Persians may possibility originate.

According to tradition, the earliest Iranic immigrants from Central Asia must have settled in this region. Lake Urmia was previously known as lake Matiene, which is the region where the Parsua (early Persians) and Medes are first mentioned.

Could this sample then be what the early settled Iranic populations looked like before mixing with the natives? Or perhaps this sample is already a 50% 50% mix.

The model shows that modern Kurds mostly resemble the Iron Age samples, who were (probably) partially descended from the Bronze Age 50% Yamnaya like sample. The Medes were first mentioned between 900BC and 800BC by the Assyrians, and they were mentioned as living in the exact same region. Perhaps these 2 iron age samples are actually Medes, and the Kurds still mostly resemble them.

https://i.ibb.co/z51SsKX/74-C04-AFC-94-E0-433-F-A40-E-5-A00384487-E1.jpg


Bira, Something is very off with this G25. How can you only be 1.6% E Asian when Gedmatch calculators have you at 5% to 9% (guessing with k3 which has more pure components) and formal stats (Eurasiandna.com) showing modern kurds very significantly E Asian shifted compared to Iran-Chl. Ofc we also know about IA Steppe.

It’s just not reasonable to assume all these evidences are wrong and the single G25 is correct. It wouldn’t make any sense.

[Aren]

What would explain their Yamnaya like ancestry, in your opinion? The only other option that I could see would be Hittite, but they didn't venture so far east.

Maybe Iranic speakers arrived earlier than we previously thought?

We know Steppe ancestry was present in NW Iran way before Indo-Iranians are attested, atleast from the Early-Middle Bronze Age(Hajji Firuz BA) and we know it was present in Armenia even earlier in the Copper Age. Considering their ydna, R1b-Z103 and the timeframe I'm leaning towards their Steppe coming form the North Caucasus arriving via modern day Armenia/Azerbaijan and not from Central Asia/Turan. The nearby Late Bronze Age samples from Armenia are even higher in Steppe, almost 30% Yamnaya-like maybe that was the source.
The Hasanlu sample though seems to have something Central Asian, he seems to be modelled with a good fit using the Alalakh outlier.

[Halgurd]

Bira, Something is very off with this G25. How can you only be 1.6% E Asian when Gedmatch calculators have you at 5% to 9% (guessing with k3 which has more pure components) and formal stats (Eurasiandna.com) showing modern kurds very significantly E Asian shifted compared to Iran-Chl. Ofc we also know about IA Steppe.

It’s just not reasonable to assume all these evidences are wrong and the single G25 is correct. It wouldn’t make any sense.

You're right, but unfortunately I don't have the expertise to make runs like that.

[Zoro]

You're right, but unfortunately I don't have the expertise to make runs like that.

No problem. At least you understand what I'm talking about. I have learned to run qpadm. I'll try to make some models for kurds later.