Slovenian Eurogenes k13 results

[vbnetkhio]

Slovenian Eurogenes k13 results from academic kits, results posted on apricity, and found on Gedmatch by Peterski.

..North_AtlanticBalticWest_MedWest_AsianEast_MedRe d_SeaSouth_AsianEast_AsianSiberianAmerindianOceani anNortheast_AfrSub-Saharan
ZS8957116Slovenian13631.7929.5416.26.611.581.830.8 400.490.850.180.110
SJ1127070Slovenian_830.2431.3614.457.6313.432.100. 3200.110.2900.08
ZD4091876Slovenian_1428.6233.7415.488.477.772.520. 641.590.240.250.3700.28
LJ2497366Slovenian27527.6235.114.937.529.571.281.9 70.6301.150.2100
.štajerska nazarje27.1736.7713.067.9910.571.11.7001.580.0600
TX3283788Slovenian18830.9533.2715.925.739.211.792. 6500.0600.3800
T807218South carniola28.9935.9515.686.617.961.462.61000.08000.6 6
T017946štajerska33.2331.813.737.2312.17001.020.160 0.360.270
H565107Dolenjska 29.3536.1914.658.478.740.2401.18000.9900.19
FH7895994Slovenian23737.0728.4916.385.4410.530.530 00.570.820.1700
A210391Dolenjska 35.0830.8115.856.938.390.220.55000.70.770.70
XU8215762Slovenian9032.7333.4916.996.245.81.2700.2 41.850.1200.850.42
A890582carniola32.2134.1813.987.778.750.480.1700.2 61.50.700
.upper carniola31.634.8714.875.398.951.510.590.660.4700.7 80.310
NN2483207Slovenian32133.3233.214.037.378.21.340.96 0.830.300.4500
A338065Dolenjska 33.4733.4712.627.9810.760.48000.5100.0700.64
BP4318140Slovenian14730.1137.2215.444.339.261.290. 4801.460.4000
T019068litoral+stajer31.9635.4416.173.1811.221.030 .840.0900000.06
.stajerska29.7939.0611.225.6911.8700001.240.70.150 .28
A558379Gorenjsko32.137.1512.856.0910.070.110.080.4 600.210.540.22
SF5393037Slovenian18429.6140.4112.247.249.390.7700 0.0600.2700
RT7548330Slovenian27136.5634.4214.473.468.420.8500 0.150.371.2500
.Average31.5334.3614.606.529.661.010.640.320.300.4 30.390.120.12

4 out of 15 "academic" kits have close Bosnian and Serb matches. 3 of them are outside the Slovenian range, judging by the collection above. good job. :picard1:

MV8899827Bosnian Slovenian29928.7536.3516.156.129.531.9500.20.81000 0.1
SJ7656272Bosnian Slovenian17225.5434.916.248.5312.770000.680.980.36 00
YW7774737Bosnian Slovenian13727.1532.1214.310.211.780.720.86001.430 .460.840.15
PQ7519412Bosnian Slovenian24129.2629.1417.217.5512.141.131.240.451. 120.67000.09

[CommonSense]

According to this Slovenes, non-Dinaric Croats and Hungarians are almost identical:

Distance to: Slovenian_New_Average
1.70903482 Croat_Croatia_Central
2.02271009 Slovenian
2.24352401 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
2.30145606 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
2.40838909 Hungarian_Northern
2.48465400 Hungarian_Budapest
2.63168208 Hungarian
3.00161510 Hungarian_Alfold
3.06010309 Hungarian_Transdanubia
3.75151774 Croat
3.77043921 Slovak
4.13559071 Croat
4.90073464 Croat_Slavonia
4.93583833 Czech
6.22588949 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.27446412 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.39177597 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.59144142 Moldova_North
6.94469582 Croat_Istria_&_Kvarner
7.07078496 East_German
7.12407889 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
7.24621245 Hungarian_Transylvania
7.30712666 Croat_B&H
7.40670642 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
7.45436114 Austrian

[Jana]

Great job. Old Slovenian average on Vahaduo (which I suspected was too southern) should be replaced with this new, improved one.

[vbnetkhio]

According to this Slovenes, non-Dinaric Croats and Hungarians are almost identical:

Distance to: Slovenian_New_Average
1.70903482 Croat_Croatia_Central
2.02271009 Slovenian
2.24352401 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
2.30145606 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
2.40838909 Hungarian_Northern
2.48465400 Hungarian_Budapest
2.63168208 Hungarian
3.00161510 Hungarian_Alfold
3.06010309 Hungarian_Transdanubia
3.75151774 Croat
3.77043921 Slovak
4.13559071 Croat
4.90073464 Croat_Slavonia
4.93583833 Czech
6.22588949 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.27446412 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.39177597 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.59144142 Moldova_North
6.94469582 Croat_Istria_&_Kvarner
7.07078496 East_German
7.12407889 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
7.24621245 Hungarian_Transylvania
7.30712666 Croat_B&H
7.40670642 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
7.45436114 Austrian

it's just Kajkavian Croats. Central Croatia and Gorski Kotar are a part of the Dinaric mountain range, but they speak Kajkavian. And Slavonia and Istria aren't, and they are more distant to Slovenians.

[Leto]

Why are those 'Bosnian Slovenians' outside the range? They looks pretty Northern to me. One is straight up a Vlatko Vukovic type of person.

[Jana]

it's just Kajkavian Croats. Central Croatia and Gorski Kotar are a part of the Dinaric mountain range, but they speak Kajkavian. And Slavonia and Istria aren't, and they are more distant to Slovenians.

Gorski kotar yeah, it's in dinaric zone (SW Slovenia is too), I think they have some genuine Slovenian and German blood. It was sparsely populated region until Habsburgs brought settlers to work in forests/wood industry.
Mix of north Croats (Kajkavians), Slovenes, Austrians-Germans and minority of dinaric Croats/Bunjevci like that sample from Lič. Also few Serb settlements (Moravice) and Čakavian Croat enclaves.

Central Croatia is mostly in Panonnian lowland, everything north/east of Karlovac is basically.

[vbnetkhio]

Why are those 'Bosnian Slovenians' outside the range? They looks pretty Northern to me. One is straight up a Vlatko Vukovic type of person.

too low North Atlantic, or North Atlantic+Baltic sum
i noticed at least one of them has both Slovenian and Bosnian matches, they aren't all pure Bosnians.

[Jana]

Why are those 'Bosnian Slovenians' outside the range? They looks pretty Northern to me. One is straight up a Vlatko Vukovic type of person.

Slovenes have higher North Atlantic in general. And it doesn't matter how northern they are, they aren't native Slovenians and should not be in the average.

[Terminator98]

2-3 of them have seriously high amount of NA. Probably some Germanic ancestry in last few centuries.

[Alenka]

2-3 of them have seriously high amount of NA. Probably some Germanic ancestry in last few centuries.
It doesn't even have to be distant ancestry, it can be recent. Both of those are academic samples from the study which seems to possibly have included some unmixed Bosnians. If they included minorities, those could even be local Germans. This one academic sample Slovenian237 is particularly Austrian-German seeming:
Slovenian237,37.07,28.49,16.38,5.44,10.53,0.53 ,0,0,0.57,0.82,0.17,0,0
Austrian,37.21,29.87,14.58,7.23,8.23,1.56,0.78,0.0 7,0.16,0.12,0.11,0.07,0.00

[Scandal]

stajerska,29.79,39.06,11.22,5.69,11.87,0,0,0,0,1.2 4,0.7,0.15,0.28
Distance to: stajerska
3.84126281 Universe

[Scandal]

According to this Slovenes, non-Dinaric Croats and Hungarians are almost identical:

Distance to: Slovenian_New_Average
1.70903482 Croat_Croatia_Central
2.02271009 Slovenian
2.24352401 Croat_Croatia_Gorski_Kotar
2.30145606 Croat_Croatia_Zagorje
2.40838909 Hungarian_Northern
2.48465400 Hungarian_Budapest
2.63168208 Hungarian
3.00161510 Hungarian_Alfold
3.06010309 Hungarian_Transdanubia
3.75151774 Croat
3.77043921 Slovak
4.13559071 Croat
4.90073464 Croat_Slavonia
4.93583833 Czech
6.22588949 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
6.27446412 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.39177597 Bosniak_Bosnia_NE&Central
6.59144142 Moldova_North
6.94469582 Croat_Istria_&_Kvarner
7.07078496 East_German
7.12407889 Ukrainian_Ivano_Frankivsk
7.24621245 Hungarian_Transylvania
7.30712666 Croat_B&H
7.40670642 Croat_B&H_West_Bosnia
7.45436114 Austrian

Did you save the coordinates of new_Slovenes?

[vbnetkhio]

Distance to: stajerska
3.84126281 Universe

those are region names next to the samples (if available)
Štajerska = Styria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(Slovenia))



Did you save the coordinates of new_Slovenes?

they are already on Vahaduo

[Jana]

Distance to: stajerska
3.84126281 Universe

Is this closest distance you get to individual sample yet? :)

[Scandal]

those are region names next to the samples (if available)
Štajerska = Styria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styria_(Slovenia))



they are already on Vahaduo

We call it "Stájerország" in my language, so stajerska was recognizable enough for me.

[Scandal]

Is this closest distance you get to individual sample yet? :)

Yes.

[Leto]

We call it "Stájerország" in my language, so stajerska was recognizable enough for me.
It's from Steiermark in German where ei is pronounced as "eye".

[Aren]

Why are those 'Bosnian Slovenians' outside the range? They looks pretty Northern to me. One is straight up a Vlatko Vukovic type of person.

This is why I have trouple trusting people here who create averages. They remove people who they think are outside the norm when they are only slightly off? This is cherry picking to me.

[Jana]

This is why I have trouple trusting people here who create averages. They remove people who they think are outside the norm when they are only slightly off? This is cherry picking to me.

Are you serious of just trolling? Bosniaks and Slovenians are two separate ethnic groups. Bosnians came there as guest workers.

What a incredibly dumb post, no offense.

It's like counting Ukrainian migrants in Polish average just because they are genetically similar. Lmao.

[Aren]

Are you serious of yust trolling? Bosniaks amd Slovenians are two separate ethnic groups. Bosnians came there as guest workers.

What a incredibly dumb post, no offense.

Was that what I was implying in my post? That Bosnians and Slovenians are the same? How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?

You are guessing that they are Bosnians, you have no proof.

[Jana]

Was that what I was implying in my post? That Bosnians and Slovenians are the same? How the fuck did you come to that conclusion?

You are guessing that they are Bosnians, you have no proof.

I didn't guess that, Vbnethkio did. And they are, no ethnic Slovenians would be getting so many Bosnian matches bevause they never had any contact trough history until recently.

Bosnian matches amd Bosnian like genetic profile - yes they are Bosnians (some are mixed). Not suprising since there is ton of people from Bosnia living in Slovenia. Slovenia is only around 80% ethnic Slovenian.

[CommonSense]

Did you save the coordinates of new_Slovenes?

It's in the original post of the thread, just add the commas:

Average 31.53 34.36 14.60 6.52 9.66 1.01 0.64 0.32 0.30 0.43 0.39 0.12 0.12

[Peterski]

4 out of 15 "academic" kits have close Bosnian and Serb matches. 3 of them are outside the Slovenian range, judging by the collection above. good job. :picard1:


<tbody>
MV8899827
Bosnian Slovenian299
28.75
36.35
16.15
6.12
9.53
1.95
0
0.2
0.81
0
0
0
0.1


SJ7656272
Bosnian Slovenian172
25.54
34.9
16.24
8.53
12.77
0
0
0
0.68
0.98
0.36
0
0


YW7774737
Bosnian Slovenian137
27.15
32.12
14.3
10.2
11.78
0.72
0.86
0
0
1.43
0.46
0.84
0.15


PQ7519412
Bosnian Slovenian241
29.26
29.14
17.21
7.55
12.14
1.13
1.24
0.45
1.12
0.67
0
0
0.09

</tbody>


Do you think they are not Slovenes? Maybe from areas near the Croatian border?

[vbnetkhio]

Do you think they are not Slovenes? Maybe from areas near the Croatian border?

No, they have close matches which are too far from Slovenia. One matches Bosnian Croats within 3 generations, another a Bosnian/Dalmatian Croat with a gedcom, the last one could be a Krajina Serb or Bosniak.

[noricum]

Distance to: Noricum(austrian)
4.02462421 Slovenian271
4.11837347 litoral_stajer
4.31530995 uppercarniola
4.65249395 Gorenjsko
4.69722258 Dolenjska
4.90196899 Slovenian321
5.11501711 štajerska
5.39472891 Slovenian188
5.46103470 carniola
6.00917632 Slovenian147
6.27806499 Dolenjska
7.04671555 Slovenian136
7.25629382 Slovenian_8
7.38547900 Slovenian90
7.46558102 Southcarniola
7.47335935 stajerska
7.66420903 Slovenian237
7.83998087 Dolenjska
8.15274800 Slovenian275
8.67392645 Slovenian184
8.68073730 Slovenian_14
8.79103521 štajerskanazarje

Noricum(austrian),34.35,34.42,13.15,3.82,10.84,1.0 4,1.43,0,0.39,0,0.11,0.1,0


Slovenian136,31.79,29.54,16.2,6.6,11.58,1.83,0.84, 0,0.49,0.85,0.18,0.11,0
Slovenian_8,30.24,31.36,14.45,7.63,13.43,2.1,0,0.3 2,0,0.11,0.29,0,0.08
Slovenian_14,28.62,33.74,15.48,8.47,7.77,2.52,0.64 ,1.59,0.24,0.25,0.37,0,0.28
Slovenian275,27.62,35.1,14.93,7.52,9.57,1.28,1.97, 0.63,0,1.15,0.21,0,0
štajerska nazarje,27.17,36.77,13.06,7.99,10.57,1.1,1.7,0,0,1 .58,0.06,0,0
Slovenian188,30.95,33.27,15.92,5.73,9.21,1.79,2.65 ,0,0.06,0,0.38,0,0
South carniola,28.99,35.95,15.68,6.61,7.96,1.46,2.61,0,0 ,0.08,0,0,0.66
štajerska,33.23,31.8,13.73,7.23,12.17,0,0,1.02,0.1 6,0,0.36,0.27,0
Dolenjska,29.35,36.19,14.65,8.47,8.74,0.24,0,1.18, 0,0,0.99,0,0.19
Slovenian237,37.07,28.49,16.38,5.44,10.53,0.53,0,0 ,0.57,0.82,0.17,0,0
Dolenjska,35.08,30.81,15.85,6.93,8.39,0.22,0.55,0, 0,0.7,0.77,0.7,0
Slovenian90,32.73,33.49,16.99,6.24,5.8,1.27,0,0.24 ,1.85,0.12,0,0.85,0.42
carniola,32.21,34.18,13.98,7.77,8.75,0.48,0.17,0,0 .26,1.5,0.7,0,0
upper carniola,31.6,34.87,14.87,5.39,8.95,1.51,0.59,0.66 ,0.47,0,0.78,0.31,0
Slovenian321,33.32,33.2,14.03,7.37,8.2,1.34,0.96,0 .83,0.3,0,0.45,0,0
Dolenjska,33.47,33.47,12.62,7.98,10.76,0.48,0,0,0. 51,0,0.07,0,0.64
Slovenian147,30.11,37.22,15.44,4.33,9.26,1.29,0.48 ,0,1.46,0.4,0,0,0
litoral_stajer,31.96,35.44,16.17,3.18,11.22,1.03,0 .84,0.09,0,0,0,0,0.06
stajerska,29.79,39.06,11.22,5.69,11.87,0,0,0,0,1.2 4,0.7,0.15,0.28
Gorenjsko,32.1,37.15,12.85,6.09,10.07,0.11,0.08,0. 46,0,0.21,0.54,0.22,0
Slovenian184,29.61,40.41,12.24,7.24,9.39,0.77,0,0, 0.06,0,0.27,0,0
Slovenian271,36.56,34.42,14.47,3.46,8.42,0.85,0,0, 0.15,0.37,1.25,0,0

[Jana]

Slovene from western Slovenia: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/qhtm65/from_slovenia_but_quite_surprised_at_the/


Western_Slovenia,32.04,31.43,13.21,8.74,12.11,0.15 ,0,0,0.3,0.94,0.73,0,0.34

Target: Western_Slovenia
Distance: 2.4230% / 2.42299024 | R2P

81.7 Croat_West
18.3 North_German

Distance to: Western_Slovenia

3.69921613 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
3.72311697 Hungarian
4.43744296 Hungarian_Alföld
4.66177005 Croat_West
4.78737924 Croat_North
4.83715826 Slovenian
5.00416826 Croat
5.61515806 Hungarian_North
5.78995682 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
6.21894686 Csángó-Ceangău
6.39349670 Croat_East
6.68374147 Croat_South
7.22303260 Austrian
7.52604146 Bosniak_Bosnia
7.72626041 Slovak
7.87247102 Romania_Maramures
8.02762107 Bosniak
8.06674036 Romania_Moldavia_North
8.32070310 Serb_Bosnia
8.33625216 Poland_Lemko
8.46719552 Serb_Croatia
8.48011792 Czech
8.59879061 Serb_Serbia_West
8.78672294 Moldova_North
9.32273565 Serb

K12b and K36 available here:

https://imgur.com/a/QXPQFkF

[Alenka]

Slovene from western Slovenia: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/qhtm65/from_slovenia_but_quite_surprised_at_the/

Cool find. She states she's from a place near the Italian border.
Thanks for sharing.

[Ion Basescul]

double

[Leto]

Slovene from western Slovenia: https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/comments/qhtm65/from_slovenia_but_quite_surprised_at_the/

She is pretty but her results aren't similar to Eastern Slavs at all, not even the Baltic/N. Atlantic ratio. Very Western.

EDIT: her D K12b is very Croatian though

-,5.73,0.14,0,0,27.17,45.28,0.35,0,3.67,0,17.21,0.4 4

Distance to: -
1.48182320 Croat
2.64306640 Slovenian
2.71979779 Hungarian
2.82395113 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
2.94190415 Croat_South
3.19003135 Hungarian_Alföld
3.24311579 Hungarian_North
4.19995238 Bosnian
4.84872148 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
4.96611518 Moldovan_North

Target: -
Distance: 1.2601% / 1.26006419 | ADC: 0.5x RC
76.4 Croat
23.6 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest

[Ion Basescul]

No, they have close matches which are too far from Slovenia. One matches Bosnian Croats within 3 generations, another a Bosnian/Dalmatian Croat with a gedcom, the last one could be a Krajina Serb or Bosniak.

These are just as different from the average, but in the Northern direction.


SF5393037 Slovenian184 29.61 40.41 12.24 7.24 9.39 0.77 0 0 0.06 0 0.27 0 0
FH7895994 Slovenian237 37.07 28.49 16.38 5.44 10.53 0.53 0 0 0.57 0.82 0.17 0 0

[vbnetkhio]

These are just as different from the average, but in the Northern direction.


SF5393037 Slovenian184 29.61 40.41 12.24 7.24 9.39 0.77 0 0 0.06 0 0.27 0 0
FH7895994 Slovenian237 37.07 28.49 16.38 5.44 10.53 0.53 0 0 0.57 0.82 0.17 0 0

distance from the average doesn't mean much.

184 just has the highest early Slavic ancestry, and 237 local pre-Slavic, and those which I excluded require a different pre-Slavic element from the rest, it easy to see this on a pca:

https://i.imgur.com/Fpvi5F8.png

the exception is 299, but he has both Slovenian and Balkan close matches.

The one which is actually more "northern" than the rest is 271. It's Austrian ancestry, most likely.

However, Austrian ancestry came to Slovenia 100 years ago or earlier, so I don't think it's worth trying to filter it out.

[Ion Basescul]

distance from the average doesn't mean much.

184 just has the highest early Slavic ancestry, and 237 local pre-Slavic, and those which I excluded require a different pre-Slavic element from the rest, it easy to see this on a pca:



the exception is 299, but he has both Slovenian and Balkan close matches.

The one which is actually more "northern" than the rest is 271. It's Austrian ancestry, most likely.

However, Austrian ancestry came to Slovenia 100 years ago or earlier, so I don't think it's worth trying to filter it out.

Bullshit imo, I think that you guys close your eyes at such bias, because it's what you like to see.

Here's 184:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Sl


3.14259447
Ukrainian_Galicia


4.08507038
Polish_Southeast


4.15908644
Moldova_Ukrainian


4.19248137
Slovak


4.23075643
South_Polish


4.44208284
Poland_Lemko


4.45033707
Ukrainian_Carpathian


5.04229115
Polish_Silesia


5.55637472
Polish_Lesser_Poland


5.62615322
Hungarian_North


5.63937053
Sorb_Lusatia


5.97390994
Czech


6.06517106
Polish_North_Wielkopolska


6.16929494
Polish_Greater_Poland


6.30622708
Polish_GreaterPoland


6.60043938
Croat_North


6.87787031
Slovenian


6.90953689
Polish_Kielce


6.90953689
Polish_Kielce


7.01953702
Polish_Silesia


7.25809204
Polish_Lower_Silesia


7.32386510
Ukrainian


7.41814667
Polish_Staropolska


7.52131637
Croat_East


7.70043505
Bosniak_Bosnia


</tbody>

[Ion Basescul]

And I will tell you even more about 184.
He or she is the closest match to an Ukrainian with the surname Stepanenko at 63cM. You will see her as Lidia there. I have that person in my database.
And guess what, the second closest match after that is at a distant 28cM. So this means that this is not even close to being a fluke.
They have genuine recent Ukrainian ancestry, not some distant bullshit of preservation from a migration in 800AD.

Academics are just trash at gathering samples, especially if they go to a town/city.

[vbnetkhio]

Bullshit imo, I think that you guys close your eyes at such bias, because it's what you like to see.

Here's 184:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Sl


3.14259447
Ukrainian_Galicia


4.08507038
Polish_Southeast


4.15908644
Moldova_Ukrainian


4.19248137
Slovak


4.23075643
South_Polish


4.44208284
Poland_Lemko


4.45033707
Ukrainian_Carpathian


5.04229115
Polish_Silesia


5.55637472
Polish_Lesser_Poland


5.62615322
Hungarian_North


5.63937053
Sorb_Lusatia


5.97390994
Czech


6.06517106
Polish_North_Wielkopolska


6.16929494
Polish_Greater_Poland


6.30622708
Polish_GreaterPoland


6.60043938
Croat_North


6.87787031
Slovenian


6.90953689
Polish_Kielce


6.90953689
Polish_Kielce


7.01953702
Polish_Silesia


7.25809204
Polish_Lower_Silesia


7.32386510
Ukrainian


7.41814667
Polish_Staropolska


7.52131637
Croat_East


7.70043505
Bosniak_Bosnia


</tbody>

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Galician-like results can be found in this region, among natives.

Except this academic sample, one result from Štajerska and one of noricum's family members (with Austrian and Slovenian ancestry) also have similar results.
some northern Croats are like this too. Bosniaks can also be 40% Baltic, but in that case they have lower North Atlantic than these Austrians/Slovenians/Croats.

[vbnetkhio]

And I will tell you even more about 184.
He or she is the closest match to an Ukrainian with the surname Stepanenko at 63cM. You will see her as Lidia there. I have that person in my database.
And guess what, the second closest match after that is at a distant 28cM. So this means that this is not even close to being a fluke.
They have genuine recent Ukrainian ancestry, not some distant bullshit of preservation from a migration in 800AD.

Academics are just trash at gathering samples, especially if they go to a town/city.

there is something wrong with that kit, she matches half of gedmatch's database. she's my match too.

[Ion Basescul]

I don't understand what you're trying to say.
Galician-like results can be found in this region, among natives.

Except this academic sample, one result from Štajerska and one of noricum's family members (with Austrian and Slovenian ancestry) also have similar results.
some northern Croats are like this too. Bosniaks can also be 40% Baltic, but in that case they have lower North Atlantic than these Austrians/Slovenians/Croats.

I don't care about 40% Baltic, but it being combined with 30% Atlantic obviously points to foreign ancestry. And that's backed up by it matching very closely with an Ukrainian, followed by a significantly large distance to the second closest match.
I don't buy this person being more than half Slovenian at best.
But this is not my average, so I don't care what you guys include at the end of the day. I am just contributing to the discussion, since it's an open thread.

[Ion Basescul]

there is something wrong with that kit, she matches half of gedmatch's database. she's my match too.

Yes, something's wrong with that kit.

[vbnetkhio]

I don't care about 40% Baltic, but it being combined with 30% Atlantic obviously points to foreign ancestry.

It's very unlikely that Ukrainian admixture would increase the "Baltic+North Atlantic" in a Slovenian.

It would decrease the North Atlantic and increase the Baltic, specifically.

I don't understand why you ignore this.


Yes, something's wrong with that kit.

Are you being sarcastic? I know what I'm talking about, she is a close match with 14/18 Serbian academic kits from various regions, the closest match for some of them, and I don't think she's some sort of genetic miracle.

[Ion Basescul]

It's very unlikely that Ukrainian admixture would increase the "Baltic+North Atlantic" in a Slovenian.

It would decrease the North Atlantic and increase the Baltic, specifically.



Nope, not even close. You are confusing them with Ukrainians from around the Carpathians. Ukrainians with 30ish NA and 40ish Baltic are not uncommon.
A Slovenian with about 30 NA and 35 Baltic would get roughly 28-32 NA and 37-40ish Baltic in an offspring with such an Ukrainian, give or take because of imperfections of inheritance.

These are just some examples of Ukrainians that I have handy.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; --darkreader-inline-color:#e8e6e3;" data-darkreader-inline-color="">
<tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


31.25
43.56
7.87
4.74
10.12
0
0
1.05
0
0.39
0
1.01
0


31.62
45.30
6.36
6.04
4.53
0
1.11
0
2.50
0.85
0.82
0.86
0


30.18
42.38
9.17
4.43
8.35
1.08
0.24
1.26
1.53
1.08
0
0
0.32


29.08
43.59
11.28
4.32
8.26
0
1.73
0
0
0.99
0.30
0
0.45


31.28
41.26
7.59
4.86
9.66
0.24
0.97
1.86
1.16
1.10
0
0
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>


Are you being sarcastic? I know what I'm talking about, she is a close match with 14/18 Serbian academic kits from various regions, the closest match for some of them.
No, the kit is faulty. I did not notice that at first. But even without that one, you would still find Ukrainians, Poles and Germans in this Slovenian's top 50. I gather from this thread that Slovenians are basically mutted with Germans, so that is expected. But the link to Poles and Ukrainians is not explained.

[vbnetkhio]

Nope, not even close. You are confusing them with Ukrainians from around the Carpathians. Ukrainians with 30ish NA and 40ish Baltic are not uncommon.
A Slovenian with about 30 NA and 35 Baltic would get roughly 28-32 NA and 37-40ish Baltic in an offspring with such an Ukrainian, give or take because of imperfections of inheritance.

These are just some examples of Ukrainians that I have handy.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium; --darkreader-inline-color:#e8e6e3;" data-darkreader-inline-color="">
<tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


31.25
43.56
7.87
4.74
10.12
0
0
1.05
0
0.39
0
1.01
0


31.62
45.30
6.36
6.04
4.53
0
1.11
0
2.50
0.85
0.82
0.86
0


30.18
42.38
9.17
4.43
8.35
1.08
0.24
1.26
1.53
1.08
0
0
0.32


29.08
43.59
11.28
4.32
8.26
0
1.73
0
0
0.99
0.30
0
0.45


31.28
41.26
7.59
4.86
9.66
0.24
0.97
1.86
1.16
1.10
0
0
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

No, the kit is faulty. I did not notice that at first. But even without that one, you would still find Ukrainians, Poles and Germans in this Slovenian's top 50. I gather from this thread that Slovenians are basically mutted with Germans, so that is expected. But the link to Poles and Ukrainians is not explained.

exactly, in a mix of a Slovenian + a high-NA Ukrainian like these - the NA remains around the Slovenian average.
and the offspring of a Slovenian and an average Ukrainian would most likely have slightly decreased NA compared to the Slovenian average.

[Ion Basescul]

The other kit that I flagged as being dodgy. So you have an insane diversity where allegedly proper Slovenians range from German to Hungarian to Polish/Ukrainian.
This is a population of only 1.6 million living on only 20 thousand km^2. You guys tell me how realistic such a diversity is.

Distance to: Slovenian237
3.99986250 Austrian
7.08614140 French_Alsace
7.47513211 Swiss_German
7.51009987 German_South
7.82426354 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.83155795 German
8.25095752 German_East
8.38830734 Swiss_German2
8.40463563 Hungarian
8.44303263 Slovenian
9.01365076 Swiss_French
9.12260379 Pennsylvania_Dutch
9.42198493 Hungarian_Alföld
9.55357001 Croat_North
9.68409005 German_West
9.79895403 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
9.89403861 Croat_West
10.22691058 Hungarian_North
10.41436988 French_Northeast
10.54924642 Csángó-Ceangău
10.62739855 Croat
10.64784955 Afrikaner
10.76397696 Belgian
10.83228969 Czech
10.97986339 Flemish

[vbnetkhio]

The other kit that I flagged as being dodgy. So you have an insane diversity where allegedly proper Slovenians range from German to Hungarian to Polish/Ukrainian.
This is a population of only 1.6 million living on only 20 thousand km^2. You guys tell me how realistic such a diversity is.

Distance to: Slovenian237
3.99986250 Austrian
7.08614140 French_Alsace
7.47513211 Swiss_German
7.51009987 German_South
7.82426354 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.83155795 German
8.25095752 German_East
8.38830734 Swiss_German2
8.40463563 Hungarian
8.44303263 Slovenian
9.01365076 Swiss_French
9.12260379 Pennsylvania_Dutch
9.42198493 Hungarian_Alföld
9.55357001 Croat_North
9.68409005 German_West
9.79895403 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
9.89403861 Croat_West
10.22691058 Hungarian_North
10.41436988 French_Northeast
10.54924642 Csángó-Ceangău
10.62739855 Croat
10.64784955 Afrikaner
10.76397696 Belgian
10.83228969 Czech
10.97986339 Flemish

their diversity is normal, for example, the Baltic ranges from 30ish to 40ish, you can get this range even if you sample a bunch of individuals from the same village (of any ethnicity).

Austrians aren't regular Germans, they are heavily Slavic, and their non-Slavic part is more southern, so they are quite similar to Slovenians. And even they have some West Ukrainian -like individuals:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205946-Post-your-Eurogenes-K13-Baltic-admixture&p=7245692&viewfull=1#post7245692

[Alenka]

I plotted all the Slovenian academic samples to a Eurogenes K15 map.
vbnetkhio excluded 12, 13, 14, 15 because he assumed they are Bosnian.
Ion Basescul suspects 10 and 6 might be foreign.

But looking at this, 12 is plotting perfectly as a local, to begin with.
As for 13, it's plotting close enough to number 3.
14 and 15 aren't too far either, especially if we are to believe number 11 is a local.

https://i.imgur.com/RI2fN3R.png

Adding the non-academic kits to the plot, we get a fairly balanced amount of outliers.
Both on the Eastern and Western sides.

https://i.imgur.com/E4KXspC.png

[vbnetkhio]

I plotted all the Slovenian academic samples to a Eurogenes K15 map.
vbnetkhio excluded 12, 13, 14, 15 because he assumed they are Bosnian.
Ion Basescul suspects 10 and 6 might be foreign.

But looking at this, 12 is plotting perfectly as a local, to begin with.
As for 13, it's plotting close enough to number 3.
14 and 15 aren't too far either, especially if we are to believe number 11 is a local.

https://i.imgur.com/RI2fN3R.png

Adding the non-academic kits to the plot, we get a fairly balanced amount of outliers.
Both on the Eastern and Western sides.

https://i.imgur.com/E4KXspC.png

It's a subtle difference in results, which obviously gets lost on this PCA. I've explained the difference a couple of times already in this thread.

And, it's not just their results, but also matches, which I also had to explain multiple times.

Those who have also seen hundreds of south Slavic results (CommonSense, Stearsolina) understood what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I'll delete the kits now, to protect the privacy of their matches.
If anybody's interested, upload the kits again to gedmatch and check their matches. I can provide the raw datas.

[Ion Basescul]

I plotted all the Slovenian academic samples to a Eurogenes K15 map.
vbnetkhio excluded 12, 13, 14, 15 because he assumed they are Bosnian.
Ion Basescul suspects 10 and 6 might be foreign.

But looking at this, 12 is plotting perfectly as a local, to begin with.
As for 13, it's plotting close enough to number 3.
14 and 15 aren't too far either, especially if we are to believe number 11 is a local.

https://i.imgur.com/RI2fN3R.png

Adding the non-academic kits to the plot, we get a fairly balanced amount of outliers.
Both on the Eastern and Western sides.

https://i.imgur.com/E4KXspC.png

Insane diversity. In my country, which is also comparably small it's similar, but I think that here that is better explained because of the not so distant past, which brought East Slavic minorities mainly to the North, South, towns and South Slavic to the South.

[Ion Basescul]

Anyway, I'll delete the kits now, to protect the privacy of their matches.
If anybody's interested, upload the kits again to gedmatch and check their matches. I can provide the raw datas.
If you mark them as Research, you will be the only one to see their matches.

[CommonSense]

There's just as much diversity in Montengro, which is even smaller and less populated than Slovenia. I don't understand why you all are so surprised.

[Leto]

There's just as much diversity in Montengro, which is even smaller and less populated than Slovenia. I don't understand why you all are so surprised.
Because tiny countries with 1-2 million are not supposed to be so diverse. Unless those are some artificial immigrant states.

[Jana]

Because tiny countries with 1-2 million are not supposed to be so diverse. Unless those are some artificial immigrant states.

There is a reason why south Slavs are genetically more diverse than much more numerous north Slavs who live in much larger area. There is no endless plain without natural barriers. Both Montenegro and Slovenia are mountanious countries, where differences can be more easily preserved. Slovenia itself has much bigger dialectical diversity than eg. Russia or Poland, and it is situated on crossroads of Slavic, Mediterranean and Alpine German world (and Hungarian). Thus some diversity is to be expected.

[Jana]

Never heard for any Ukrainian settlers in Slovenia. There were none to my knowledge. I doubt these samples are mixed with them. "Ukrainians" (actually Rusyns) settled Slavonia, Vojvodina and even sporadically northern Bosnia but not Slovenia.

[noricum]

[FONT=Verdana]The other kit that I flagged as being dodgy. So you have an insane diversity where allegedly proper Slovenians range from German to Hungarian to Polish/Ukrainian.
This is a population of only 1.6 million living on only 20 thousand km^2. You guys tell me how realistic such a diversity is.

When I, as a fairly close related Carinthian Austrian, get the same diversity within my wider family, with only 3 people tested, it shouldn't come as such a big surprise that also Slovenes are genetically similarly diverse.

[vbnetkhio]

not some distant bullshit of preservation from a migration in 800AD.


could you elaborate your view on this further?

do you think that after the proto-Slavs fully intermixed with the locals, the range fell down something really dense, for example the Baltic ranged 32-36? And the today's range of Slovenians is the result of them mass-mixing with their neighbours?

[Ion Basescul]

could you elaborate your view on this further?

do you think that after the proto-Slavs fully intermixed with the locals, the range fell down something really dense, for example the Baltic ranged 32-36? And the today's range of Slovenians is the result of them mass-mixing with their neighbours?

Yes, sure, on such a small territory it's neigh to impossible to preserve a mix from 800AD, which is what that person looks like. It's more likely that this is a recently foreign mix from a town, where foreigners are not surprising in any shape or form.
But you nibbas discount only the Southern outliers, while, as is in this caase, admitting the more outlying Northern ones. As expected from Balkaners, but still, let's take this seriously.

[Alenka]

It's a subtle difference in results, which obviously gets lost on this PCA. I've explained the difference a couple of times already in this thread.

And, it's not just their results, but also matches, which I also had to explain multiple times.

Those who have also seen hundreds of south Slavic results (CommonSense, Stearsolina) understood what I'm talking about.

Anyway, I'll delete the kits now, to protect the privacy of their matches.
If anybody's interested, upload the kits again to gedmatch and check their matches. I can provide the raw datas.
So in the southern direction, you looked for a subtle difference, but in the northern direction, an obvious difference raised no suspicion?
If locals can have 40 Baltic or 37 North Atlantic, which is respectively about +6 Baltic and +6 North Atlantic from the average, then 28 Baltic or 25 North Atlantic could be plausible to come across also, in the other direction. None of the four you've excluded is that much of an outlier, comparatively they seem well within range.

When Ion Basescul pointed out the northern outliers, you said drastic diversity is possible, but in the southern direction you dismiss the option of there being diversity.

And yes, you've mentioned those four have matches with Croats and Bosnians, but did you make sure others who plot more typically don't get any such matches?
Are you saying the core of the cluster matches only with Slovenes?
And how about the northern outliers, do they match with no other ethnicities?

The objective method would be to either be inclusive, or inspect the outliers with equal scrunity in all directions.

So I was thinking of having a look at the matches of all kits and making observations.
Did you actually delete the kits? Why are their matches suddenly a privacy concern?

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, sure, on such a small territory it's neigh to impossible to preserve a mix from 800AD, which is what that person looks like. It's more likely that this is a recently foreign mix from a town, where foreigners are not surprising in any shape or form.

You make a mistake in the first step - the intra-population diversity never becomes as low as you think it does.

It falls down until a certain level - and then remains that way, no matter how much time passes.

A human population which occupies a single point on a PCA , or has a very small cluster as you imagine, doesn't exist, no matter how endogamous it is.

Take a look at these results of these actual isolated communities - they have the same "huge diversity" as Slovenians do.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24403-New-Italian-Samples-from-Isolated-Populations

You can also take a look at the G25 results of endogamous populations like the Kalash, where everybody is each other's cousin.
Their cluster is just a bit smaller than most European populations, and that's about it.



But you nibbas discount only the Southern outliers, while, as is in this caase, admitting the more outlying Northern ones. As expected from Balkaners, but still, let's take this seriously.

they are not "southern outliers", they are close cousins of Serbs, Croats (not those close to the Slovenian border) and Bosniaks, plus they have k13 results typical for those ethnicities.

[vbnetkhio]

So in the southern direction, you looked for a subtle difference, but in the northern direction, an obvious difference raised no suspicion?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, because Serbs and Bosniaks arrived to Slovenia mostly from 1960s to 1980s, so I think they can still be easily separated for the purposes of this average.

Influences like Austrian or North Italian are much more deeply rooted, so I didn't bother.
Separating such an influence from Slovenians would be a much harder task.

For example, I didn't notice any unusual matches among the high-NA samples. Maybe they come from some micro-region which received German or Austrian influence in the 1700s.
In that case they wouldn't have any German matches (matching is reliable for the last 6 generations) , but their autosomal would still be different.



If locals can have 40 Baltic or 37 North Atlantic, which is respectively about +6 Baltic and +6 North Atlantic from the average, then 28 Baltic or 25 North Atlantic could be plausible to come across also, in the other direction. None of the four you've excluded is that much of an outlier, comparatively they seem well within range.

When Ion Basescul pointed out the northern outliers, you said drastic diversity is possible, but in the southern direction you dismiss the option of there being diversity.


It's not just about the ranges, it's also about ratios of components.
Serbs can have high Baltic, like 34, but then their NA is low, around 20. The NA can be 29, but then the Baltic is always 29 or lower.

Slovenians and Northern Croats tend to "avoid" such combinations, from the samples i've seen.



And yes, you've mentioned those four have matches with Croats and Bosnians, but did you make sure others who plot more typically don't get any such matches?
Are you saying the core of the cluster matches only with Slovenes?
And how about the northern outliers, do they match with no other ethnicities?

The objective method would be to either be inclusive, or inspect the outliers with equal scrunity in all directions.

So I was thinking of having a look at the matches of all kits and making observations.
Did you actually delete the kits? Why are their matches suddenly a privacy concern?

Because they were getting dragged around too much on this thread. I can send them to you if you want to upload them on Gedmatch.
If it's a problem, I can reupload them, and show the matches to you.

[Jana]

Hrvoje's Slovene matches. Father and son I guess (due to shared cms). One is a geologist and one works at University of Ljubljana. Ph2ter is their match too, but he has some far back ancestry from Slovenia as well.


Jaril,34.79,32.61,12.5,3.45,13.38,1.09,0,0,1.24,0. 81,0,0,0.12
Gašper,32.27,35.8,12.86,6.05,8.99,1.34,1.2,0.23,1. 26,0,0,0,0

Target: Jaril
Distance: 3.4463% / 3.44631315 | R2P

55.3 Polish_Podlaskie
44.7 Swiss_Italian

Distance to: Jaril

6.56325377 Slovenian
6.66648333 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
6.77578040 Hungarian
6.91550432 Hungarian_North
7.34812901 Croat_North
7.56372263 Hungarian_Alföld
7.81085143 Austrian
8.17099137 Croat_West
8.42345535 Czech
8.53301236 Croat
8.70407376 Slovak
8.84652474 German_East
9.51185576 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
9.71718066 Croat_East
10.43672362 Croat_South
10.45245904 Csángó-Ceangău
10.62937910 Poland_Lemko
10.96112677 Bosniak_Bosnia
11.27246646 Ukrainian_Carpathian
11.55862881 Sorb_Lusatia
11.77676101 Bosniak
11.89517549 Romania_Maramures
11.95191616 Romania_Moldavia_North
12.12335762 Serb_Croatia
12.19448646 Serb_Bosnia

Target: Gašper
Distance: 1.1409% / 1.14090949 | R2P

54.7 Hungarian_North
45.3 Czech

Distance to: Gašper

2.50473551 Hungarian_North
2.54334426 Slovak
2.83488977 Slovenian
2.92764410 Czech
3.63583553 Croat_North
4.08936425 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
4.42677083 Hungarian
4.95128266 Hungarian_Alföld
5.74074908 Poland_Lemko
6.28947534 German_East
6.38739383 Ukrainian_Galicia
6.42165088 Ukrainian_Carpathian
6.54096323 Croat
6.75933429 Sorb_Lusatia
7.07176781 Croat_East
7.33359393 South_Polish
7.73927645 Croat_West
7.91589540 Bosniak_Bosnia
8.12334291 Austrian
8.19478493 Polish_Southeast
8.36086718 Moldova_Ukrainian
8.61453423 Polish_Lesser_Poland
8.69349182 Polish_Silesia
8.80951758 Polish_North_Wielkopolska
9.17642632 Csángó-Ceangău

[Ion Basescul]

You make a mistake in the first step - the intra-population diversity never becomes as low as you think it does.

It falls down until a certain level - and then remains that way, no matter how much time passes.

A human population which occupies a single point on a PCA , or has a very small cluster as you imagine, doesn't exist, no matter how endogamous it is.

Take a look at these results of these actual isolated communities - they have the same "huge diversity" as Slovenians do.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24403-New-Italian-Samples-from-Isolated-Populations

You can also take a look at the G25 results of endogamous populations like the Kalash, where everybody is each other's cousin.
Their cluster is just a bit smaller than most European populations, and that's about it.



they are not "southern outliers", they are close cousins of Serbs, Croats (not those close to the Slovenian border) and Bosniaks, plus they have k13 results typical for those ethnicities.

Agree to disagree; it's your average, so feel free to include what you want.

[Leto]

You guys can collect at least 10 Slovenian samples (there might be more) and make an average if you don't trust those academic ones.

[Jana]

You guys can collect at least 10 Slovenian samples (there might be more) and make an average if you don't trust those academic ones.

I found much more Slovenian kits than 10 (many with gedcom) and I sent them to Alenka. She can post their results if she pleases. But no need for new average (it can eventually be upgraded with larger sample size), Vbn average is great and it is closest to NW Croats as it should be. Just because some clueless and arrogant users like Ion Basecul claim otherwise, it doesn't mean anything.

Vbn is nicer and more objective than him or any other user here.

"Outliers" he excluded are excluded because they closely match with "Serbo-Croats", and that makes sense considering how much economic immigration Slovenia faced after WW2 from rest of Yugoslavia.
Much more realistic than to claim some samples are mixed with Ukrainians, when none ever herd for Ukrainians in SLO.

[Leto]

I found much more than 10 (many with gedcom) and I sent them to Alenka. She can poste their results if she pleases. But no need for new average (it can eventually be upgraded with larger sample size), Vbn average is great and it is closest to NW Croats as it should be. Just because some clueless and arrogant users like Ion Basecul claim otherwise, it doesn't mean anything.

Vbn is nicer and more objective than him or any other user here.

"Outliers" he excluded are excluded because they closely match with "Serbo-Croats", and that makes sense considering how much economic immigration Slovenia faced after WW2 from rest of Yugoslavia.
Much more realistic than to claim some samples are mixed with Ukrainians, when none ever herd for Ukrainians in SLO.
Yeah, obviously there are no Ukrainians in SLO in any significant number. I wonder if the same samples were used for Dodecad. No one was eliminated back then, so those alleged Yugoslavs must've been included too. The average still looks totally realistic though.


Slovenian,4.70,0.44,0.22,0.26,28.92,45.97,0.22,0.0 6,3.18,0.10,15.90,0

[Alenka]

Yes, because Serbs and Bosniaks arrived to Slovenia mostly from 1960s to 1980s, so I think they can still be easily separated for the purposes of this average.

Influences like Austrian or North Italian are much more deeply rooted, so I didn't bother.
Separating such an influence from Slovenians would be a much harder task.

For example, I didn't notice any unusual matches among the high-NA samples. Maybe they come from some micro-region which received German or Austrian influence in the 1700s.
In that case they wouldn't have any German matches (matching is reliable for the last 6 generations) , but their autosomal would still be different.
That's not the first time Slovenes came into contact with Serbs. What about the Uskok population replacements due to Ottoman raids? Did that influence vanish into thin air?

A while ago in another thread, you've written that Slovenes have no Balkan influence.
You need to be careful about confirmation bias.

If we're to believe an ethnic Slovene can cluster like a full-blooded German due to deep-rooted admix from centuries ago. then it's not far-fetcned to believe an ethnic Slovene can cluster on the very northern part of the Serb cluster due to deep-rooted admix from centuries ago.

One of those is more of an outiier, and guess which one it is.
If separating such an influence from Slovenians would be a such a hard task, then that kit wouldn't stand out.
But it does.



It's not just about the ranges, it's also about ratios of components.
Serbs can have high Baltic, like 34, but then their NA is low, around 20. The NA can be 29, but then the Baltic is always 29 or lower.
Slovenians and Northern Croats tend to "avoid" such combinations, from the samples i've seen.
You mean, from the samples you've chosen to consider.



Because they were getting dragged around too much on this thread. I can send them to you if you want to upload them on Gedmatch.
If it's a problem, I can reupload them, and show the matches to you.
Dragged around? That's really offensive.
We were just discussing methodology.

[vbnetkhio]

That's not the first time Slovenes came into contact with Serbs. What about the Uskok population replacements due to Ottoman raids? Did that influence vanish into thin air?


I tried not to mention Uskoks in this thread, because they are a small group limited to a very specific region of Slovenia. Some outsider reading this thread like Ion Basescul might get the wrong idea that Slovenians are mass mixed with Serbs.

But yes , they exist, and I expect Slovenians from those parts to have Balkan-shifted results, maybe exactly like these outliers I excluded, but they definitely won't have 3rd generation matches in Bosnia and Serbia.



A while ago in another thread, you've written that Slovenes have no Balkan influence.
You need to be careful about confirmation bias.

If we're to believe an ethnic Slovene can cluster like a full-blooded German due to deep-rooted admix from centuries ago. then it's not far-fetcned to believe an ethnic Slovene can cluster on the very northern part of the Serb cluster due to deep-rooted admix from centuries ago.

One of those is more of an outiier, and guess which one it is.
If separating such an influence from Slovenians would be a such a hard task, then that kit wouldn't stand out.
But it does.


Those are all reasonable arguments, the only way to know is to collect more Slovenian results with known ancestry. Only then it will be clear how "west" and "north" Slovenians can be.



You mean, from the samples you've chosen to consider.


I'm talking about non-academic results from gedmatch. Except these I posted here, I checked many random kits with ethnic Slovenian names I saw on Gedmatch.



Dragged around? That's really offensive.
We were just discussing methodology.

Sorry, but they were mentioned way too many times in this thread, that usually ends with people deleting their kits from gedmatch, and that way we lose valuable results.
Most people upload there just to find relatives, and don't like when they are discussed on random forums.

[Ion Basescul]

Just because some clueless and arrogant users like Ion Basecul claim otherwise, it doesn't mean anything.

Vbn is nicer and more objective than him or any other user here.


Says the girl who is like 66% ethnically Croat, but matches the average at a distance of 1%.
You clowns realise that I went through thousand samples for my Romania and Moldova project and another 300 for Bulgaria?
And what I am seeing with your results is something that's next to impossible for a random individual. Such distances are more akin to comparing one average to another, so I have zero faith in them. I just don't mention this, because I don't care. Everyone has their own demons, and for some people that's insecurity.

So I don't even want to hear about objectivity from anyone coming from the Balkans. The results that I post are as transparent as possible, and an extra difference from the rest of the clowns, is that I diversify and also share commercial results, not just one model.

[Jana]

Says the girl who is like 66% ethnically Croat, but matches the average at a distance of 1%.

Because when all is evened out, I plot like average Croat (eg. German and Serb cancel each other), and I am mix of different regions just like average is. It doesn't take high IQ to figure it out.
And that is K12b, not K13. K12b generally provides better fits due to more stable and simplistic components.


You clowns realise that I went through thousand samples for my Romania and Moldova project and another 300 for Bulgaria?
Only clown here is you. We are using as much samples as we can get, for Serbs those are several hundred, for Croats between 150-200 currently iirc and they will be updated soon (but that is now menaged by another user)


And what I am seeing with your results is something that's next to impossible for a random individual. Such distances are more akin to comparing one average to another, so I have zero faith in them. I just don't mention this, because I don't care. Everyone has their own demons, and for some people that's insecurity.

You sound absolutely ridiculous. No comment.


So I don't even want to hear about objectivity from anyone coming from the Balkans. The results that I post are as transparent as possible, and an extra difference from the rest of the clowns, is that I diversify and also share commercial results, not just one model.

We also share commercial results (from reddit and youtube) and did so quite a bit in last few days. Don't act so high and mighty.

[Leto]

Says the girl who is like 66% ethnically Croat, but matches the average at a distance of 1%.

A Serbian-Lithuanian mix would plot deep in Ukraine if not further north. Just saying.

30% Baltic + 54% Baltic / 2 = 42%
Most Serbs and Lithuanians are 20-something % North_Atlantic
Lithuanians are below 10% West_Med, Serbs are up to 20% WM.
East_Med is negligible or non-existent in LT but can reach 20% in Serbia

All in all, this would give you a solid Ukrainian or even Polish result technically without a drop of recent East Slavic blood.

[Jana]

double

[Jana]

A Serbian-Lithuanian mix would plot deep in Ukraine if not further north. Just saying.

30% Baltic + 54% Baltic / 2 = 42%
Most Serbs and Lithuanians are 20-something % North_Atlantic
Lithuanians are below 10% West_Med, Serbs are up to 20% WM.
East_Med is negligible or non-existent in LT but can reach 20% in Serbia

All in all, this would give you a solid Ukrainian or even Polish result technically without a drop of recent East Slavic blood.

Good example are my parents results: their values are so similar they can pass for members od same family (distance between them is below 5)

Feiichy_Father,28.42,31.99,15.48,8.37,12.10,0.00,0 .00,1.59,0.53,1.00,0.00,0.37,0.16
Feiichy_Mother,28.72,31.08,15.50,9.98,9.71,2.93,1. 15,0,0.40,0.35,0,0.15,0

North Atlantic, Baltic and west Med scores are basically identical.

My father is 100% south Slavic. My mother is 62.5% south Slavic.

[Leto]

Good example are my parents results: their values are so similar they can pass for members od same family (distance between them is below 5)

Feiichy_Father,28.42,31.99,15.48,8.37,12.10,0.00,0 .00,1.59,0.53,1.00,0.00,0.37,0.16
Feiichy_Mother,28.72,31.08,15.50,9.98,9.71,2.93,1. 15,0,0.40,0.35,0,0.15,0

North Atlantic, Baltic and west Med scores are basically identical.

My father is 100% south Slavic. My mother is 62.5% south Slavic.
Only 62.5% South Slavic? And the rest is German and what else?

[Dick]

Anyone know when the autosomal from viminacium will be published or uploaded to gedmatch or were they already?

[Jana]

Only 62.5% South Slavic? And the rest is German and what else?

Greek.

But to give exact breakdown, I'd need to check church records.

[Jana]

Anyone know when the autosomal from viminacium will be published or uploaded to gedmatch or were they already?

Hopefully soon. Especially interesting will be local Moesian samples.

[vbnetkhio]

Says the girl who is like 66% ethnically Croat, but matches the average at a distance of 1%.

I didn't bother to study Stearsolina's results, however the Croat average is very tight, it's a simple mix of northern and southern Croats, confirmed also by the academic samples.



You clowns realise that I went through thousand samples for my Romania and Moldova project and another 300 for Bulgaria?

That might be the problem, you are familiar only with Romanian and Bulgarian samples.
So, for Romanians which are too different from their regional average for your liking, you assume this is a result of recent Ukrainian/Hungarian/Bulgarian influence.

If you collected the results from more ethnicites, especially isolated ones with much simpler demographics than Romania, your views would change.

Actually, I think most Romanians/Moldovans are also isolated as the rest of the Balkans, and they are much less mixed than you think they are.

Yes, groups like Northern Croats, Slovenians, Austrians, and Bosniaks have some individuals with almost proto-Slavic results, despite being physically separated from West/East Slavs, and near to non-existent recent settlement of West/East Slavs. If you accept this as true, you'll have to change your views on Romanian genetics too.



And what I am seeing with your results is something that's next to impossible for a random individual. Such distances are more akin to comparing one average to another, so I have zero faith in them. I just don't mention this, because I don't care.

Well, you do mention it.



Everyone has their own demons, and for some people that's insecurity.
So I don't even want to hear about objectivity from anyone coming from the Balkans.

I think I realize where the misunderstanding is. We collect fewer results than you, and combine it with our knowledge of History, Demographics, Ethno-linguistics, etc., to make conclusions.

You just gather 100s of results, and have the pre-conception that Romanians, and all other ethnicites are "mutts" who mixed with any other ethnicity which was at hand, and any other view is a nationalistic delusion.

I think you should really collect your own samples for some of these ethnicites. If you are convinced that we are faking results to fit our agendas, only this can settle the issue.

I made averages for ethnicites far away from mine such as Greeks, so it shouldn't be a problem.



The results that I post are as transparent as possible, and an extra difference from the rest of the clowns, is that I diversify and also share commercial results, not just one model.


I did consider collecting commercial results, however most of the commercial tests are either very poorly designed and flat out misinformative, or they give boring results (showing Balkanites as Balkan, or South+ East Euro.)
There is still some useful data to be gathered from them, especially with the new communites on MyHeritage, so I might do it now.

[Ion Basescul]

double

[Ion Basescul]

I didn't bother to study Stearsolina's results, however the Croat average is very tight, it's a simple mix of northern and southern Croats, confirmed also by the academic samples.



That might be the problem, you are familiar only with Romanian and Bulgarian samples.
So, for Romanians which are too different from their regional average for your liking, you assume this is a result of recent Ukrainian/Hungarian/Bulgarian influence.

If you collected the results from more ethnicites, especially isolated ones with much simpler demographics than Romania, your views would change.

Actually, I think most Romanians/Moldovans are also isolated as the rest of the Balkans, and they are much less mixed than you think they are.

Yes, groups like Northern Croats, Slovenians, Austrians, and Bosniaks have some individuals with almost proto-Slavic results, despite being physically separated from West/East Slavs, and near to non-existent recent settlement of West/East Slavs. If you accept this as true, you'll have to change your views on Romanian genetics too.



Well, you do mention it.



I think I realize where the misunderstanding is. We collect fewer results than you, and combine it with our knowledge of History, Demographics, Ethno-linguistics, etc., to make conclusions.

You just gather 100s of results, and have the pre-conception that Romanians, and all other ethnicites are "mutts" who mixed with any other ethnicity which was at hand, and any other view is a nationalistic delusion.

I think you should really collect your own samples for some of these ethnicites. If you are convinced that we are faking results to fit our agendas, only this can settle the issue.

I made averages for ethnicites far away from mine such as Greeks, so it shouldn't be a problem.



I did consider collecting commercial results, however most of the commercial tests are either very poorly designed and flat out misinformative, or they give boring results (showing Balkanites as Balkan, or South+ East Euro.)
There is still some useful data to be gathered from them, especially with the new communites on MyHeritage, so I might do it now.

I don't assume anything. When I claim something, that's justified. There isn't such a thing as "to my liking". If it were, I would be the closest to Romanians and not Csangos, Serbs/Bosniaks, Szekelys, etc. I am not the one with a distance of 1% to my ethnicity here, but between 3-8%, depending on the region. So from the very start, you nibbas should look under your own noses.

Distance to: IonBasescul
2.93703933 Csángó-Ceangău
2.98968226 Romania_Moldavia_North
3.19231891 Romania_Maramures
3.50794812 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
3.70978436 Moldova_Centre
3.85185670 Serb_Bosnia
3.92462737 Moldova_average
3.95326447 Serb_Serbia_West
4.05120970 Croat_South
4.19824964 Serb_Croatia
4.27679787 Bosniak
4.34673441 Serb
4.85520339 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
4.95957659 Serb_Serbia_Central
5.02414172 Croat_West
5.20153823 Moldova_North
5.31538334 Romania_Crisana
5.56564462 Croat
5.62585105 Serb_Herzegovina
5.77230457 Serb_Serbia_South
5.97866206 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.10317131 Croat_East
6.31011886 Romania_Transylvania
6.38485709 Hungarian_Alföld
6.40910290 Bosniak_Bosnia
6.64887960 Romania_average
6.87694700 Montenegrin
6.97603756 Romania_Banat
7.03396759 Hungarian
7.23805913 Moldova_South
7.75589453 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
7.80787423 Serb_Southern_Montenegro
8.07635438 Croat_North
8.32228935 Romania_Oltenia
8.71126282 Romania_Dobruja
8.73557668 Bulgaria_Northwestern
8.82945072 Romania_Wallachia


If someone is very outlying from the average either in the Southern or Northern direction, then I always include them if the person replies confirming to me that all 4 gp were Moldovan/Romanian. How could anyone even claim otherwise when I have all flavours of Romanians in my database, with some as Southern as South Bulgarians and Macedonians, and others comparable to Carpathian Ukrainians? This is called either being oblivious to what I am posting, or outright a lying cunt.

I said that for example Caplani samples are likely mixed with Bulgarians, Gagauz, Russians, based on surnames there and results, and after uploading one sample to MyHeritage, that sample received only one region, and that was for Bulgaria.

For Romania, and especially Moldova, we have enough academic samples and user results, even without my involvement. The G25 average and individuals from around Balti county and Caplani, which are academic sourced only, are pretty good as is and there I have a better fit than with my own averages. That's how biased I am, fools.

I just add extra value by looking at smaller regions. But of course when you don't know how to insult, you attempt to attack my work. But that doesn't affect me, because only I know how much I chase each individual to confirm every little detail about their ancestry.

[Jana]

I am not even closest to Croats at K13 (with merged raw data) as lying Ion claims, my closest (general) Croat average is at distance at 5.

Distance to: Feiichy

4.65179535 Hungarian_Alföld
4.76152287 Hungarian
4.79646745 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
5.00931133 Croat
5.09227847 Croat_North
5.28020833 Csángó-Ceangău
5.66190781 Slovenian
5.72571393 Croat_West
5.99180273 Croat_East
6.31080819 Croat_South
6.51801350 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
6.53330697 Hungarian_North
6.60392308 Bosniak_Bosnia
6.94298207 Poland_Lemko
7.29110417 Bosniak
7.41849041 Moldova_North
7.45670168 Serb_Bosnia
7.65083002 Romania_Moldavia_North
7.77352558 Romania_Maramures
7.81689197 Slovak
7.98280026 Serb_Serbia_West
8.28763537 Serb_Croatia
8.40464157 Ukrainian_Carpathian
8.51893773 Moldova_Centre
8.74857131 Moldova_average

K12b is different story and we have right to put in our signature results we prefer.
AND: I took part in making K13 averages, but not K12b ones, which are far closer fit to me.

[Jana]

With myheritage raw data at K13 Lemko highlanders are closest fit to me. It doesn't make sense for me to be closest to people living in southern Poland. So obviously K12b works better for some people.

Distance to: Stearsolina

3.88328469 Poland_Lemko
4.43407262 Croat_East
4.48306815 Bosniak_Bosnia
4.58758106 Croat
4.64383462 Croat_North
4.86671347 Hungarian_Alföld
5.52196523 Ukrainian_Carpathian
5.62725510 Hungarian
5.68233227 Slovenian
5.71636248 Hungarian_North
5.85787504 Moldova_North
6.01780691 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
6.12248316 Croat_South
6.23436444 Croat_West
6.46706270 Bosniak
6.47602502 Slovak
7.03102411 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.04628271 Csángó-Ceangău
7.23221266 Serb_Bosnia
7.67591688 Romania_Moldavia_North
8.14194080 Moldova_Centre
8.30960890 Moldova_average
8.39834508 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
8.51442306 Moldova_Ukrainian
8.55248502 Serb_Croatia

[Ion Basescul]

I am not even closest to Croats at K13 (with merged raw data) as lying Ion claims, my closest (general) Croat average is at distance at 5.

Distance to: Feiichy

4.65179535 Hungarian_Alföld
4.76152287 Hungarian
4.79646745 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
5.00931133 Croat
5.09227847 Croat_North
5.28020833 Csángó-Ceangău
5.66190781 Slovenian
5.72571393 Croat_West
5.99180273 Croat_East
6.31080819 Croat_South
6.51801350 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
6.53330697 Hungarian_North
6.60392308 Bosniak_Bosnia
6.94298207 Poland_Lemko
7.29110417 Bosniak
7.41849041 Moldova_North
7.45670168 Serb_Bosnia
7.65083002 Romania_Moldavia_North
7.77352558 Romania_Maramures
7.81689197 Slovak
7.98280026 Serb_Serbia_West
8.28763537 Serb_Croatia
8.40464157 Ukrainian_Carpathian
8.51893773 Moldova_Centre
8.74857131 Moldova_average

K12b is different story and we have right to put in our signature results we prefer.
AND: I took part in making K13 averages, but not K12b ones, which are far closer fit to me.

It does make better fits because of fewer components and it is a different story in that sense.
But it's not my problem that you guys don't want to admit that it is unnatural for such a tiny population to range from German to Ukrainian. These are not similar populations at all genetically, despite both being comparably Northern. Such variations cannot be explained otherwise than with recent incursions. You are literally stuffing half of Europe in Slovenia and it looks more like metropolitan Canada than Central Europe.

[Dušan]

Yeah, I got closer distance with Dodecad K12b than with Eurogenes K13.


K12b
Distance to: Dušan
3.65034245 Moldovan
3.77189607 Serb
5.62389545 Croat
7.10482934 Montenegrin
7.67639890 Hungarian
7.68753537 Slovenian
8.92643826 Romanian
11.26346749 Bulgarian
12.21644384 Slovak
12.32342485 Czech
13.23736756 N.Macedonian
15.95412799 German
16.30242313 Belgian
16.45566772 Dutch
16.91483964 Ukrainian


K13
Distance to: Dušan
5.50637812 Moldovan
6.07526954 Serb
7.00071425 Croat
9.59033889 Romanian
9.66417612 Hungarian
10.27612768 Montenegrin
10.73976722 Slovenian
11.95486094 Slovak
12.47298280 Bulgarian
14.63066984 Czech
15.15224406 NorthMacedonian
16.40985375 Ukrainian
16.64068208 Austrian
18.98135401 Polish
20.32234238 Albanian



But K12b is weird, that I got closer Belgian and Dutch than Ukrainian:confused:

[Jana]

Yeah, I got closer distance with Dodecad K12b than with Eurogenes K13.


K12b
Distance to: Dušan
3.65034245 Moldovan
3.77189607 Serb
5.62389545 Croat
7.10482934 Montenegrin
7.67639890 Hungarian
7.68753537 Slovenian
8.92643826 Romanian
11.26346749 Bulgarian
12.21644384 Slovak
12.32342485 Czech
13.23736756 N.Macedonian
15.95412799 German
16.30242313 Belgian
16.45566772 Dutch
16.91483964 Ukrainian


K13
Distance to: Dušan
5.50637812 Moldovan
6.07526954 Serb
7.00071425 Croat
9.59033889 Romanian
9.66417612 Hungarian
10.27612768 Montenegrin
10.73976722 Slovenian
11.95486094 Slovak
12.47298280 Bulgarian
14.63066984 Czech
15.15224406 NorthMacedonian
16.40985375 Ukrainian
16.64068208 Austrian
18.98135401 Polish
20.32234238 Albanian



But K12b is weird, that I got closer Belgian and Dutch than Ukrainian:confused:

It is strange how you omit Bosniaks from your results. I guess you are closest to them than heheh xD