That Norwegian G25 average

[RyoHazuki]

Even ignoring the drifted outliers, why is it considerably closer to British samples than the Swedish one? Is there just not enough samples?


Distance to: Norwegian
0.01438819 Icelandic
0.01631960 Shetlandic
0.01734299 Scottish
0.01742621 Dutch
0.01818180 Irish
0.01856720 Swedish
0.01914271 Orcadian
0.02112961 English
0.02116143 Welsh
0.02211209 Danish
0.02392111 English_Cornwall
0.02701306 French_Brittany
0.02968311 German
0.03240656 Afrikaner
0.03899890 Belgian
0.04062528 German_East
0.04140877 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04198413 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04216745 Czech
0.04345717 Austrian
0.04349002 French_Nord
0.04624936 French_Paris
0.04654429 French_Alsace
0.04826477 Hungarian
0.05038207 Swiss_German

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.3583% / 0.01358339 | ADC: 2x
57.2 Scottish
28.8 Swedish
14.0 Dutch

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.2245% / 0.01224545 | ADC: 1x
43.2 Irish
43.2 Swedish
13.2 Dutch
0.4 Scottish

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.2169% / 0.01216929 | ADC: 0.5x
48.0 Irish
47.0 Swedish
5.0 Dutch

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.1297% / 0.01129691 | ADC: 0.25x
54.4 Irish
44.6 Swedish
1.0 Ket

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.1199% / 0.01119918
63.8 Irish
28.8 Swedish
4.4 Ingrian
1.6 Cossack_Kuban
0.8 Ket
0.6 Welsh

[Peterski]

Because Norwegians have British admixture.

They reported it in the preprint of this study:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

Iron Age Norwegians did not have it, but modern ones do.

[Aren]

The Swedish average is from Stockholm so it’s Finnish-shifted. NW Europeans are very close so it makes sense.

[Coastal Elite]

I think the Norwegian sample was a group of Irish tourists in Norway. On some G25 calculators, Norwegian is my Irish mom's closest population. I've always thought the samples were questionable.

[Peterski]

The Swedish average is from Stockholm so it’s Finnish-shifted.

Yes Finnish admixture in Sweden also plays a role. But this is what the VA study says:

"(...) Within the British Isles, it is difficult to assess how much of the Danish-like ancestry is due to pre-existing Anglo-Saxon ancestry; however, the Norwegian-like ancestry is consistently around 4%. The Danish-like contribution is likely to be similar in magnitude and is certainly not larger than 16% as found in Scotland and Ireland. The lack of strong variation in ancestry from Scandinavia makes sense if the Vikings did not maintain a diaspora identity over time but instead integrated into the respective societies in which they settled. The genetic impacts are stronger in the other direction. The ‘British-like’ populations of Orkney became ‘Scandinavian’ culturally, whilst other British populations found themselves in Iceland and Norway, and beyond. Present-day Norwegians vary between 12 and 25% in their ‘British-like’ ancestry, whilst it is still (a more uniform) 10% in Sweden. Separating the VA signals from more recent population movements is difficult, but these numbers are consistent with our VA estimates. (...)"

[Aren]

Yes Finnish admixture in Sweden also plays a role. But this is what the VA study says:

"(...) Within the British Isles, it is difficult to assess how much of the Danish-like ancestry is due to pre-existing Anglo-Saxon ancestry; however, the Norwegian-like ancestry is consistently around 4%. The Danish-like contribution is likely to be similar in magnitude and is certainly not larger than 16% as found in Scotland and Ireland. The lack of strong variation in ancestry from Scandinavia makes sense if the Vikings did not maintain a diaspora identity over time but instead integrated into the respective societies in which they settled. The genetic impacts are stronger in the other direction. The ‘British-like’ populations of Orkney became ‘Scandinavian’ culturally, whilst other British populations found themselves in Iceland and Norway, and beyond. Present-day Norwegians vary between 12 and 25% in their ‘British-like’ ancestry, whilst it is still (a more uniform) 10% in Sweden. Separating the VA signals from more recent population movements is difficult, but these numbers are consistent with our VA estimates. (...)"

Yes 10% British Admixture in Swedes from Svealand :picard1:
I’m not even going into the whole why ADMIXTURE is shit for tracing actual heritage.

[Peterski]

Yes 10% British Admixture in Swedes from Svealand

There were some genetically 100% British individuals buried in Sigtuna, so not impossible.

[Aren]

There were some genetically 100% British individuals buried in Sigtuna, so not impossible.

Yeah, no. I’m confident these people wanted to spice things up. Again I can’t take any paper using ADMMIXTURE to calculate actual heritage seriously.

[Peterski]

I’m confident these people wanted to spice things up.

Who, which people, the Vikings? By inviting and bringing various exotic foreigners back home to Scandinavia?

Iron Age / Early Medieval Scandinavia was sparsely populated, so it did not require a massive immigration to spread there a ~10% foreign admixture. British Isles at the beginning of the Viking Age had a population size amounting to few million, while Scandinavia - maybe few hundred thousand.

500 people moving to Scandinavia could have a bigger impact (percentage-wise) than 5000 people moving to Britain.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think the problem is that there aren't enough samples from Norway (only 7). I used to be closest to Iceland than Ireland but Irish samples were increased (tot 64) and now I'm closest to them. Anyway Davidski is not continuing with the modern database.

[Peterski]

Modern e.g. Shetlanders are genetically British but culturally/linguistically Viking (basically "ethnic conversion" took place there).

Scandinavian admixture in the Shetland Islands is barely detectable, even though a language shift to Old Norse took place there.

I think the authors of the study suggested, that people like these could be moving to Scandinavia, spreading British DNA there.

[Aren]

Who, which people, the Vikings? By inviting and bringing various exotic foreigners back home to Scandinavia?

Iron Age / Early Medieval Scandinavia was sparsely populated, so it did not require a massive immigration to spread there a ~10% foreign admixture. British Isles at the beginning of the Viking Age had a population size amounting to few million, while Scandinavia - maybe few hundred thousand.

500 people moving to Scandinavia could have a bigger impact (percentage-wise) than 5000 people moving to Britain.

Lol no the authors obviously.

I don’t know where you get your numbers from but Scandinavia was not that sparsely populated especially not the southern half. A quick search

In The Vikings course from The Great Courses, Prof. Kenneth Harl guesses the population in the Scandinavian areas (which would become Norway, Denmark, and Sweden) from around 800 A.D. through around 1100 A.D. was something in the range of 800,000 to 1,000,000 people. He thinks migration to Ireland, England, and Iceland offset the natural population growth.
https://www.google.se/amp/s/ancientfinances.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/population-in-scandinavia-during-viking-age/amp/

So yeah not 500 but rather 100 000 thralls.

[Peterski]

especially not the southern half

The southern half is Denmark, and nothing was quoted about British admixture in Denmark.

BTW you pretend like there was no German and British immigration to Scandinavia in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Era?

Because even the authors of the study acknowledge that not all of it is from Viking Age times.

There were German, Scottish, English immigrants in Scandinavia in the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s.

[Grace O'Malley]

Modern e.g. Shetlanders are genetically British but culturally/linguistically Viking (basically "ethnic conversion" took place there).

Scandinavian admixture in the Shetland Islands is barely detectable, even though a language shift to Old Norse took place there.

I think the authors of the study suggested, that people like these could be moving to Scandinavia, spreading British DNA there.

Shetlanders and Orcadians have the highest amount of Scandinavian ancestry but this was done using British populations and Scandinavian populations. I do think using modern day populations is not the best but historically it would not make sense if they didn't have Scandinavian admixture.

We document a pole of Norwegian ancestry in the north of the archipelago (reaching 23 to 28% in Shetland) which complements previously described poles of Germanic ancestry in the east, and “Celtic” to the west. This modern genetic structure suggests a northwestern British or Irish source population for the ancient Gaels that contributed to the founding of Iceland.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/38/19064

[JamesBond007]

Even ignoring the drifted outliers, why is it considerably closer to British samples than the Swedish one? Is there just not enough samples?


Distance to: Norwegian
0.01438819 Icelandic
0.01631960 Shetlandic
0.01734299 Scottish
0.01742621 Dutch
0.01818180 Irish
0.01856720 Swedish
0.01914271 Orcadian
0.02112961 English
0.02116143 Welsh
0.02211209 Danish
0.02392111 English_Cornwall
0.02701306 French_Brittany
0.02968311 German
0.03240656 Afrikaner
0.03899890 Belgian
0.04062528 German_East
0.04140877 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04198413 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04216745 Czech
0.04345717 Austrian
0.04349002 French_Nord
0.04624936 French_Paris
0.04654429 French_Alsace
0.04826477 Hungarian
0.05038207 Swiss_German

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.3583% / 0.01358339 | ADC: 2x
57.2 Scottish
28.8 Swedish
14.0 Dutch

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.2245% / 0.01224545 | ADC: 1x
43.2 Irish
43.2 Swedish
13.2 Dutch
0.4 Scottish

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.2169% / 0.01216929 | ADC: 0.5x
48.0 Irish
47.0 Swedish
5.0 Dutch

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.1297% / 0.01129691 | ADC: 0.25x
54.4 Irish
44.6 Swedish
1.0 Ket

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 1.1199% / 0.01119918
63.8 Irish
28.8 Swedish
4.4 Ingrian
1.6 Cossack_Kuban
0.8 Ket
0.6 Welsh


Ah , a retarded unsophisticated American question. Norway is really close to Scotland and to a lesser extant Iceland (which had Gaelic slaves) and there was historically the auld alliance between Scotland, Norway and France against England and Norway was allied with Brtain against Nazi Germany unlike Sweden which was neutral etc..

[Aren]

Modern e.g. Shetlanders are genetically British but culturally/linguistically Viking (basically "ethnic conversion" took place there).

Scandinavian admixture in the Shetland Islands is barely detectable, even though a language shift to Old Norse took place there.

I think the authors of the study suggested, that people like these could be moving to Scandinavia, spreading British DNA there.

Barely detectable according to whom? Shetland is heavily Scandinavian.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/shetland?iframe=yresults

More than half of the results here are Germanic. Ridiculous claim.

[J. Ketch]

K13/K15 updated is more accurate, for reasons already mentioned

K13

Distance to: Norwegian
1.18978990 Denmark
1.28136646 Norway_South_Central
1.51052971 Sweden_Götaland
2.75287123 North-Dutch
3.03537477 Sweden_Svealand_West
3.97795173 Danish
4.32578317 Swedish
5.16778483 Orcadian
5.30584583 North_German
5.49009107 Irish
5.68641363 English_North
6.20405513 West_Scottish
6.29085050 English
6.57752233 Scottish
7.07174660 English_Midlands
7.46287478 Sweden_Svealand_East
7.70485561 Southeast_English
8.55339114 Southwest_English
8.66072168 German_West
8.97354445 Welsh
9.38042643 FRA_Armorica
11.76909087 North-Swedish
12.31751192 South_Dutch
13.22317662 West_German
15.02575788 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Norway_South_Central
0.56956123 Sweden_Götaland
0.85667964 Denmark
1.28136646 Norwegian
2.15346233 Sweden_Svealand_West
3.09257175 North-Dutch
3.42238221 Swedish
3.66092884 Danish
5.31037663 North_German
5.56054853 Orcadian
6.00424850 English_North
6.11586462 Irish
6.68588812 English
6.72722826 West_Scottish
6.81143157 Sweden_Svealand_East
7.19065366 Scottish
7.52968127 English_Midlands
7.91021491 Southeast_English
8.84009050 German_West
8.94770362 Southwest_English
9.61026534 Welsh
9.67084795 FRA_Armorica
11.16954789 North-Swedish
12.43704145 South_Dutch
13.30364988 West_German
15.15464615 FRA_Belgica

----------------------------------------------------------------------

K15

Distance to: Norwegian
1.20909057 Norway
1.91588100 Swedish
2.64599698 Danish
3.18017295 West_Norwegian
3.68517299 North_Swedish
5.24669420 North_Dutch
6.18377716 Dutch
6.60703413 English_North
6.79782318 Scotland
6.82542306 North_Swedish
7.49278987 English_Midlands
8.21680595 Orcadian
8.23852535 Welsh
8.44754402 West_Scottish
8.65401063 England
8.67487176 North_German
9.00350487 Irish
9.48729677 Southeast_English
10.08529623 Southwest_English
10.60237238 FRA_Armorica
10.81984750 West_German
11.87227021 Aland_Sweden
11.97694869 Belgium
12.99935383 South_Dutch
14.28174359 FRA_Belgica

Distance to: Norway
1.20909057 Norwegian
1.62391502 Swedish
2.64151472 Danish
3.22707298 North_Swedish
3.70521254 West_Norwegian
5.00930135 North_Dutch
5.91007614 Dutch
6.35787700 English_North
6.52068248 Scotland
6.54740407 North_Swedish
7.19171746 English_Midlands
7.90020253 Welsh
8.08168299 Orcadian
8.09329970 West_Scottish
8.24402208 North_German
8.26478070 England
8.63579759 Irish
9.19393822 Southeast_English
9.79550407 Southwest_English
10.26178347 FRA_Armorica
11.02515306 West_German
11.36820566 Aland_Sweden
11.84470346 Belgium
12.70086218 South_Dutch
14.12020892 FRA_Belgica

[JamesBond007]

interesting enough I have a hiberno-Norman Irish name but :

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02865240 Dutch
0.02966293 Norwegian
0.03097112 Welsh
0.03128845 Irish
0.03153649 Scottish
0.03173773 English
0.03264249 Orcadian
0.03323547 French_Brittany
0.03424252 English_Cornwall
0.03434020 Shetlandic
0.03436223 Afrikaner
0.03554585 Icelandic
0.03738934 German
0.03750983 Danish
0.03848059 Swedish
0.03928214 Belgian
0.03989744 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04385257 French_Nord
0.04392513 French_Paris
0.04724831 French_Alsace
0.04744523 Austrian
0.04848521 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04923271 Swiss_German
0.05276382 German_East
0.05488675 Czech

[Aren]

The southern half is Denmark, and nothing was quoted about British admixture in Denmark.

BTW you pretend like there was no German and British immigration to Scandinavia in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Era?

Because even the authors of the study acknowledge that not all of it is from Viking Age times.

There were German, Scottish, English immigrants in Scandinavia in the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s.

Southern half is Denmark only? You’re joking?

Sporadic movements of sailors and merchans do not impact the population structure like this. How much German admix is there in the Baltid States after what 6, 7 centuries of German influence and settlements?

[Peterski]

Shetlanders and Orcadians have the highest amount of Scandinavian ancestry

This is what I get for Shetland average using K36:

Shetland_Average:

United Kingdom 40,6%
Ireland 17,4%
Germany 17,4%
Denmark 11,6%
Sweden 9,8%
France 1,6%
Netherlands 1,0%
Iceland 0,5%
Italy 0,1%

So only about 1/3 of Scandinavia + North Germany. They are more British-Irish autosomally.


Barely detectable according to whom? Shetland is heavily Scandinavian.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/shetland?iframe=yresults

More than half of the results here are Germanic. Ridiculous claim.

I was talking about autosomal DNA. According to scientists, authors of this study, for example:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

https://twitter.com/medievalatX/status/1222475595302477825

"Although not peer reviewed (yet) this is a fascinating wide-ranging genetic study of the Viking diaspora. Interesting findings: populations in the Orkneys and Shetlands may have adopted Scandinavian culture, but were genetically more closely related to British & Irish populations."

https://i.imgur.com/B1EUggB.png

=====

Autosomally Shetlanders are intermediate, but closer to British people than to Scandinavians:

Shetland_Average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
GB_Scotland-Average
0.4096474
GB_Orkney-Islands
0.4360172
GB_Northumberland
0.4375020
GB_Tyne-and-Wear
0.4698670
IS_Iceland
0.4837634
GB_Lancashire
0.4915018
GB_North-West-England
0.4936041
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.5178031
NL_Groningen
0.5196778
(...)

[Grace O'Malley]

This is what I get for Shetland average using K36:

Shetland_Average:

United Kingdom 40,6%
Ireland 17,4%
Germany 17,4%
Denmark 11,6%
Sweden 9,8%
France 1,6%
Netherlands 1,0%
Iceland 0,5%
Italy 0,1%

So only about 1/3 of Scandinavia + North Germany. They are more British-Irish autosomally.



I was talking about autosomal DNA. According to scientists, authors of this study, for example:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

https://twitter.com/medievalatX/status/1222475595302477825

"Although not peer reviewed (yet) this is a fascinating wide-ranging genetic study of the Viking diaspora https://biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1.full. Interesting findings: populations in the Orkneys and Shetlands may have adopted Scandinavian culture, but were genetically more closely related to British & Irish populations."

Autosomally Shetlanders are intermediate, but closer to British people than to Scandinavians:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
GB_Scotland-Average
0.4096474
GB_Orkney-Islands
0.4360172
GB_Northumberland
0.4375020
GB_Tyne-and-Wear
0.4698670
IS_Iceland
0.4837634
GB_Lancashire
0.4915018
GB_North-West-England
0.4936041
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.5178031
NL_Groningen
0.5196778
(...)

No one is saying they aren't mostly Isles but they have a lot of Scandinavian approx 25%.

[Peterski]

No one is saying they aren't mostly Isles but they have a lot of Scandinavian approx 25%.

Yes, 25% is correct, not sure that is "a lot" though, it doesn't make them cluster with Scandinavians.

Considering that their culture & language became entirely Scandinavian, 25% admixture is not much.

And then such culturally 100% Scandinavian but genetically 75% British people migrated to Sigtuna.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes, 25% is correct, not sure that is "a lot" though, it doesn't make them cluster with Scandinavians.

Considering that their culture & language became entirely Scandinavian, 25% admixture is not much.

And then such culturally 100% Scandinavian but genetically 75% British people migrated to Sigtuna.

I think that is a lot. That's quite a significant percentage.

[Peterski]

Southern half is Denmark only? You’re joking?

In ancient times Denmark had more inhabitants than all of Sweden + Norway combined. That was the case in the Iron Age at least:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260572-Population-size-of-Ancient-Germanic-Tribes

[Peterski]

I think that is a lot. That's quite a significant percentage.

But if a genetically 75% British 25% Scandinavian Shetlander migrated back to Scandinavia, he was spreading a lot of British admixture there.

And the people there didn't know about it because that Shetlander spoke Old Norse and was culturally 100% the same as local Scandinavians.

Edit:

And Orcadians are much less Scandinavian-admixed than Shetlanders.

[Aren]

This is what I get for Shetland average using K36:

Shetland_Average:

United Kingdom 40,6%
Ireland 17,4%
Germany 17,4%
Denmark 11,6%
Sweden 9,8%
France 1,6%
Netherlands 1,0%
Iceland 0,5%
Italy 0,1%

So only about 1/3 of Scandinavia + North Germany. They are more British-Irish autosomally.



I was talking about autosomal DNA. According to scientists, authors of this study, for example:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/703405v1

https://twitter.com/medievalatX/status/1222475595302477825

"Although not peer reviewed (yet) this is a fascinating wide-ranging genetic study of the Viking diaspora. Interesting findings: populations in the Orkneys and Shetlands may have adopted Scandinavian culture, but were genetically more closely related to British & Irish populations."

https://i.imgur.com/B1EUggB.png

=====

Autosomally Shetlanders are intermediate, but closer to British people than to Scandinavians:

Shetland_Average

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
GB_Scotland-Average
0.4096474
GB_Orkney-Islands
0.4360172
GB_Northumberland
0.4375020
GB_Tyne-and-Wear
0.4698670
IS_Iceland
0.4837634
GB_Lancashire
0.4915018
GB_North-West-England
0.4936041
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.5178031
NL_Groningen
0.5196778
(...)
But all Brits have substantial Scandinavian input already. And your number adds up to 40% Scandinavian + German in addition to what the British average gets. You think that means they are only culturally Norse?

[Peterski]

But all Brits have substantial Scandinavian input already.

Modern Norwegians modelled with K36 as a mix of Iron Age Sweden and Late Bronze Age Scotland:

(IA_Sweden = only one sample, RISE174)

Norway_Average

IA_Sweden,57.4
LBA_Scotland,42.6

Are you going to tell me that LBA_Scotland had Scandinavian admixture long before Viking times?

Norway_Average is most similar to NO_Midt-Norge regional average.

PS:

Of course now you will say that RISE174 is not representative because it was Baltic-shifted ???

So there were Balto-Slavs in Iron Age Sweden, but there were no Brits in Viking Age Sweden?

[Aren]

Modern Norwegians modelled with K36 as a mix of Iron Age Sweden and Late Bronze Age Scotland:

(IA_Sweden = only one sample, RISE174)

Norway_Average

IA_Sweden,57.4
LBA_Scotland,42.6

Are you going to tell me that LBA_Scotland had Scandinavian admixture long before Viking times?

Norway_Average is most similar to NO_Midt-Norge regional average.

PS:

Of course now you will say that RISE174 is not representative because it was Baltic-shifted ???

So there were Balto-Slavs in Iron Age Sweden, but there were no Brits in Viking Age Sweden?

First of all that sample isn’t from the Iron Age it’s from the Nordic Bronze Age. Read the thread on Anthrogenica on him, they seem sure he’s much older.
And yes he is different than the majority of all early Germanic genomes so far there’s no denying he has some Baltic admixture or maybe something from the Welzin samples? Eitherway he is not a proxy for Viking era Scandinavians.

LBA Scotland predates the Hallstatt period so it’s useless.

[Peterski]

OK modern Norwegian average, modelled with K36, using full modern spreadsheet except Norwegian populations:

Norway_Average

Denmark 27,10%
United Kingdom 18,40%
Iceland 17,80%
Finland 11,60%
Netherlands 7,10%
Germany 6,50%
Sweden 5,40%
Ireland 5,20%
France 0,90%

^^^
Before you say that modern UK has Scandinavian admixture - remember that modern Iceland also has British too.

So it balances each other out.

Of course ideally we should be using only ancient samples for such models, but ancient samples are still too rare.

[Aren]

OK modern Norwegian average, modelled with K36, using full modern spreadsheet except Norwegian populations:

Norway_Average

Denmark 27,10%
United Kingdom 18,40%
Iceland 17,80%
Finland 11,60%
Netherlands 7,10%
Germany 6,50%
Sweden 5,40%
Ireland 5,20%
France 0,90%

^^^
Before you say that modern UK has Scandinavian admixture - remember that modern Iceland also has British too.

So it balances each other out.

Of course ideally we should be using only ancient samples for such models, but ancient samples are still too rare.
Are you for real? You know better than this, that the modell will give high British cause you include something Eastern such as Finnish.

[Peterski]

Are you for real? You know better than this, that the modell will give high British cause you include something Eastern such as Finnish.

I included all the world except Norway. And they do have Finnic admixture, look at their levels of "Fennoscandian" in K36 (much higher than British).

Though tbh prehistoric hunter-gatherers from Norway also scored high "Fennoscandian", so it could be from them rather than more recent Finnic DNA:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277794-North-Norwegian-Hunter-Gatherer-on-GEDmatch

^^^ This Norwegian hunter-gatherer from Steigen scores: Fennoscandian 33.75 Pct

https://i.imgur.com/aGSDer2.png

https://i.imgur.com/rSInTVZ.png

[J. Ketch]

It would be good if somebody could compile decent North, Central & South Dutch, and Flemish averages for Vahaduo. The South Dutch avg is too southern shifted IMO, probably people from Limburg.

[Peterski]

It would be good if somebody could compile decent North, Central & South Dutch, and Flemish averages for Vahaduo. The South Dutch avg is too southern shifted IMO, probably people from Limburg.

I have academic Dutch regional samples, will check if I can run them through K15 and K13.

[Jana]

There is Viking admixture in Scotland, even in highlands. Some clans are of mixed Norse-Gael origin. And in the islands facing towards Scandinavia it is ofcourse more significant.

British population is more mixed than Scandinavian and using modern Brits to measure some kind of foreign admixture in Norwegians is a failure.

[Peterski]

and using modern Brits to measure some kind of foreign admixfure in Norwegians is a failure.

I don't think that they did that in the study. They used ancient samples. And they are going to publish also ancient Norwegian samples.

If I understand correctly ancient (Pre-Viking) Norwegian samples had much weaker genetic affinity to Britain, than modern Norwegians.

[Jana]

I don't think that they did that in the study. They used ancient samples. And they are going to publish also ancient Norwegian samples.

If I understand correctly ancient (Pre-Viking) Norwegian samples had much weaker genetic affinity to Britain, than modern Norwegians.

Sure, we should wait for the study to come out.
Yet I doubt Norwegians are 25% Isles because most "pure" Germanic samples from medieval Europe come out as closest to Norwegians out of all populations.

Now I don 't know is that by using pro tools in studies such as those on Langobards or only by using G25 though. G25 is pretty poor for moderns.

[RyoHazuki]

I think the problem is that there aren't enough samples from Norway (only 7). I used to be closest to Iceland than Ireland but Irish samples were increased (tot 64) and now I'm closest to them. Anyway Davidski is not continuing with the modern database.

I won't think much else of it, I was just curious because usually I see Norwegians and Swedes broadly closer to one another than to any other population.

[Peterski]

come out as closest to Norwegians out of all populations.

In G25 ???

That's because there are no Frisians in G25, and the Dutch average is made from all regions (there is no North Dutch average).

There is also no North German average, but one German average, so obviously it is not going to be closest to Early Germanics.

[Jana]

In G25 ???

That's because there are no Frisians in G25, and the Dutch average is made from all regions (there is no North Dutch average).

There is also no North German average, but one German average, so obviously it is not going to be closest to Early Germanics.

Yes, that makes sense. As far as I know G25 had no Danish average either?

[Peterski]

Now it has one, but the Danish average is not so super representative.

Frisians, NW Germans, North Dutch and some Danes and Southern Swedes are also close to Proto-Germanic.

[RyoHazuki]

Ah , a retarded unsophisticated American question.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. Your rude remarks make a far worse example of Americans than a simple question about genomic similarities :picard1:

[Jana]

Now it has one, but the Danish average is not so super representative.

OK. I assume it was added recently. Back than when people were discussing how early medieval Langobards and Bavarians were Norwegian-like, it was due to lack of other important NW Euro averages so it created fake illusion Norwegians are closest to them, I guess.

[Peterski]

Yes, the Dutch and Germans are just too diverse to make one national average.

Only NW Germans and North Dutch are close to Proto-Germanic populations.

[RyoHazuki]

It would be good if somebody could compile decent North, Central & South Dutch, and Flemish averages for Vahaduo. The South Dutch avg is too southern shifted IMO, probably people from Limburg.

Yeah, I noticed this too and they appear closer to Walloons than North Dutch populations.

[J. Ketch]

According to the Viking paper Norwegians have some of the most and least Germanic people of all Scandinavians.

The extremes of ancient Scandinavian admix:

Norway - 92%
Sweden - 91%
DenmarkB - 84%
SwedenB - 82%
Denmark - 82%
NorwayB - 65%
UKB - 51%
UK - 2%

[Jana]

Yeah, I noticed this too and they appear closer to Walloons than North Dutch populations.

West German is too southern shifted too IMO. It's similar to south Dutch.

[Jana]

Regarding south Dutch/Flemish I think they aren't uniform. Some Flemish like Dandielion (who is minor part from Limburg as far as I remember) are very northern shifted.

[Mingle]

West German is too southern shifted too IMO. It's similar to south Dutch.

Depends on how they define West German. If North-West German and West German are separate, then West German probably refers to Middle-West and South-West Germans, and those populations aren't too different to the South Dutch.

[Lucas]

OK modern Norwegian average, modelled with K36, using full modern spreadsheet except Norwegian populations:

Norway_Average

Denmark 27,10%
United Kingdom 18,40%
Iceland 17,80%
Finland 11,60%
Netherlands 7,10%
Germany 6,50%
Sweden 5,40%
Ireland 5,20%
France 0,90%

^^^
Before you say that modern UK has Scandinavian admixture - remember that modern Iceland also has British too.

So it balances each other out.

Of course ideally we should be using only ancient samples for such models, but ancient samples are still too rare.

Wait. What regions are included for Norway average. Troms, Finnmark too or not? It changes heavily Fennoscandian level.

And it is weighted average based on regional populations? North is sparsely populated.

[Peterski]

Wait. What regions are included for Norway average.

Norway average has 18% Fennoscandian, similar level as Norway Midt-Norge (Central Norway) region which has around 17.8% IIRC.

BTW my Scottish Highlands average has just 7% Fennoscandian, among the lowest levels of British regions (most have below 10%).

[JamesBond007]

I think it's a perfectly reasonable question. Your rude remarks make a far worse example of Americans than a simple question about genomic similarities :picard1:

Americans don't know history especially if it's not American history. I apologize to the two Americans (including myself) who actually know history.:picard2:

[Peterski]

Depends on how they define West German. If North-West German and West German are separate, then West German probably refers to Middle-West and South-West Germans, and those populations aren't too different to the South Dutch.

South-West Germans from areas like Baden are already similar to Swiss Germans and to Alsatians, so more southern-shifted than South Dutch.

[RyoHazuki]

Americans don't know history especially if it's not American history. I apologize to the two Americans (including myself) who actually know history.:picard2:

Dunning-Kruger is strong with you.