Interesting posts from Illyrian-Thracian differences from genetic pov (Eupedia)

[Jana]

Some very well written posts from this thread, I'd like to share (and possibly discuss) here
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/40057-Were-pre-Slavic-Albanians-like-ancient-Illyrians


Firstly Iron Age Illyrian is more Northern shifted because she is Iapodian (I believe even by archaeological location), nothing to do with "Latins", who barely existed at the time and were not migrating to Illyrian areas. Iapodes have received additional Urnfield admixture in LBA/EIA. These Urnfield people would have been Bell-Beaker-like.

I actually think some linguistic evidence might point to Illyrian connection, but here's something about autosomal DNA.

Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: 10.8025% / 10.80252316
83.8 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
16.2 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: 3.1523% / 3.15229064
74.0 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
26.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

Lets take your advice and remove the Slavic component from the Albanians.
Modelling the Slavs as average of Sungir6 and AV2, assuming Albanians have 25 % of Slavic autosomal admix. (Slav-Sungir6.AV2,27.93,46.57,12.08,4.33,4.39,0.61,0.25, 0.00,2.08,0.99,0.29,0.48,0.00)

Here is N.Albanian K13 minus 25 % of Slavic
Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav,19.60,8.30,25.49,12 .07,29.54,3.33,0.73,0.51,0.00,0.42,0.00,0.01,0.00

Who are SZ40 and SZ43??

SZ40 Langobard looks like a Romanized Thracian/Mysian, away from Illyrians. Female.

Distance to: SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
10.58235796 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
11.69874780 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.47761848 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
14.35825547 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
15.69379814 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
16.80639759 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
18.97208739 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
20.30019212 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
21.48707751 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


SZ19 is a Thracian, it's crazy how Thracian she is considering IA Thracian sample was more Southern shifted yet SZ19 is much much closer to Thracian than to Myceneans or anyone else.
Distance to: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
4.31142668 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
11.69874780 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
13.00880471 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
15.82648413 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
17.62164862 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
18.43425887 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
18.93289465 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
19.72673313 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
20.07776880 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_

SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_


Now where does our North Albanian without 25 % of Slavic cluster?
Distance to: Albanian_north_Albania.no.Slav
4.22202558 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
8.96922516 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
10.94313483 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
11.17245273 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
12.00272469 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
12.55558043 scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.14445113 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
15.56958252 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc
18.34741399 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
18.55283536 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
20.75844407 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp


The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

Scy192 from Moldova from 300 BC is also way closer to a proto-Albanian candidate than Illyrians:
Distance to: scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
3.16608591 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
13.47761848 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
13.96434030 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
14.32547032 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
16.12145465 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
16.63311456 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
16.64757340 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
18.43425887 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
24.19005167 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_

Scy197 is V13+, Somebody added wrong dates for these samples.
Distance to: scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
6.63604551 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
8.98541040 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
11.51131183 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
12.16415225 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
13.37844535 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
14.55909338 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
14.93957831 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
15.05223239 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.20738103 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp


These "Scythians" are surely 100 % Getae, look at their distance to Early IA Thraco-Cimmerian from the similar area. Superficial partial similarity to proto-Illyrians is due to more Steppe admixture, but in their case it is not Bell Beaker derived like in Illyrians, rather Yamnaya.

So having N.Albanians without the 25 % of Slavic autosomal makes them Thracians. And Albanians (this sample for sure) cannot be modelled as Illyrian + little Slavic because the distances are too great.

Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: 13.0927% / 13.09274359
86.0 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
14.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: 13.0355% / 13.03550408
88.0 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2


Target: Albanian_north_Albania
Distance: 14.8717% / 14.87173063
88.0 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
12.0 Slav-Sungir6.AV2

You see these combinations with Illyrians don't work with only 12-14 % of Slavic admixture!!

ofc Albanians have some Slavic autosomal influence, they have more Baltic in K13 than any Paleo-Balkan population. And way more than Illyrians.

Well we see there were a bunch of romanized Thracians among the Szolad samples, likely heavy with E-V13. So looking at these results it seems some of these V13's positioned in Illyrian areas today might actually be Romans of Thracian origins. I think it is quite possible even that Illyrians had no more than 5-10 % of V13, and were like 50 % J-L283 and completely opposite with the Thracians (including Northern Thracians/Dacians/Getae). Albanians do have significant Y-DNA Illyrian ancestry but it looks like they have heavy Thracian autosomal admixture.

SZ1 quoted by Angela (And BA date should be a mistake) has some Germanic admixture in the study. And indeed
Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
Distance: 6.6138% / 6.61379823
88.6 Albanian_Kosovo
11.4 German_West

Target: SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
Distance: 6.4739% / 6.47391514
68.2 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
31.8 SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

SZ12 is a Germanic proper sample.


If you mix the Bronze Age Dalmatian with a Mycenaean, then you have something closer to Albanians and Greeks. The only difference is that Albanians and Greeks will have some Slavic admixture. Removing the Slavic admixture from Albanians does not pull them closer to the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Rather the opposite. Because the Albanians will be closer to Bronze Age Greeks rather than the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Hence I suspect that there were migrations in the Balkans during the Iron Age. And this pulled the Northern Balkans closer to the Mycenaeans, while the South Balkans Albania and the Greek peninsula were pulled a little bit towards the Bronze Age Dalmatian. Then during the medieval migrations the South Balkans was pulled North East.


There was some Greek influence in the N.Balkans, but generally in LBA/EIA there was massive migration to the South coinciding with the Mycenaean fall. You forget that the Dalmatian Iron Age sample is even more Northern than the MBA samples. This is in line with proven Urnfield migrations from Central Europe in LBA/IE which caused the Mycenaean fall. I already proposed the main difference: Illyrians were Bell Beaker inspired, while the entire Thracian and Greek world was Yamnaya inspired regarding their IE element, with Srubnaya-like influence.

The Bell Beaker - Yamnaya cline is the basis of difference between Illyrian and Thraco-Greek groups. The other one is Neolithic, but the differences between Neolithic elements were generally smaller than those between BB and Yamnaya.

Mycenaeans were essentially Minoans with small Yamnaya influence.
Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp



Minoans were mostly Greek Neolithics with Kura Araxes influence which brought vast majority of Greek J2a. Unlike in autosomal DNA though, J2a overwhelmed the G2a.
Target: I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
Distance: 2.1728% / 2.17275655
83.8 I3708_Greece_Peloponnese_N_6550_ybp
16.2 ARM003_Kaps_Kura_Araxes_5148_years_old_G2b_K3_


IA Greek shows clear signs that Dorian invasions brought some N.Balkan ancestry
Target: EmpI8215
Distance: 3.7929% / 3.79285949
55.4 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
44.6 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp


Target: EmpI8215
Distance: 5.8597% / 5.85965700
80.8 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_
19.2 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp

It seems though the Greek Neolithic element stayed the single most important source of Greek ancestry up to IA.


"SZ43, I-L812 (today common in C.Europe and Iberia), looks Illyrian, might be local Pannonian
Distance to: SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
3.62466550 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
7.45226140 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
7.49074763 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
13.00880471 SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
13.56766745 I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
14.32547032 scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
15.69379814 SZ40_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
16.72392896 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
28.93335964 I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_


When looking for matches of any sample, especially Ancient sample you need to be looking at the most likely candidates for representing his makeup. For Dalmatian proto-Illyrians you should most definitely not be looking at those who are distant geographically (except for new comers like IE's for ex). If possible you need samples which if possible immediately precede the aDNA sample chronologically and are situated in the same geographical area.

So let us see what are these Dalmatians. Logically their Neolithic element should related to EEF's which lived in Dalmatia and indeed this is where we get best matches. Lets try random Bulgarian EEF and Yamnaya, works well?
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 12.2366% / 12.23664441
78.6 I1297_Bulgaria_MP_N_7817_ybp
21.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

Nope.
Look at this now:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4330% / 3.43296136
59.8 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
40.2 I3947_Croatia_Cardial_N_7836_ybp



Let's try for diversity second Dalmatian Cardial
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 3.4715% / 3.47149623
61.2 I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
38.8 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp

Works great.

More BB's

Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 5.4849% / 5.48492039
61.0 I0805_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4255_ybp
39.0 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp


Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 6.4420% / 6.44201259
63.8 E09569_Germany_Bell_Beaker_Augsburg_4223_ybp
36.2 I3948_Croatia_Cardial_N_7860_ybp


Another Dalmatian Cardial EEF
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 4.9936% / 4.99357642
60.6 I0805_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4255_ybp
39.4 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp

Let's replace BB with Yamnaya:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 15.4353% / 15.43531388
51.0 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp
49.0 I0357_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_4952_ybp



maybe this was one off, lets try another Yamnaya:
Target: I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
Distance: 17.1371% / 17.13712291
52.0 I3433_Croatia_Cardial_N_7814_ybp
48.0 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


It doesn't work with Yamnaya, why? Because of huge CHG in Yamnaya which Dalmatian MBA lacks.

So problem solved, you don't have to speculate about the ancestry of MBA Dalmatian that much at all. It was not some abstract "IE" it was approx 60 % German Bell Beaker + 40 % Dalmatian EEF, with whom they mixed in those centuries they have been there. The culture of the Dalmatian most likely is connected to intrusion of Ljubljana culture people. These were heavily admixed with BB's. With this J2b find in Hungary it might have arrived from the East but still apparently in formation of Ljubljana culture Vucedol and BB met, and some said BB's overwhelmed Vucedol people. Though it's possible some BB like affinities where there too in Maros culture.

German Bell Beakers themselves were already with some Central Euro EEF admixture so they were not purely Steppe. Let's see what this ideal BB is
Target: I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
Distance: 10.9657% / 10.96565604
81.6 I0104_Germany_Corded_Ware_4378_ybp
18.4 I0046_Germany_LBK_EN_7051_ybp

Trying German LBK EEF with German CW, not so ideal..


Try Remedello.. Much better
Target: I3589_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4175_ybp
Distance: 5.4389% / 5.43890177
77.0 I0104_Germany_Corded_Ware_4378_ybp
23.0 RISE487_Remedello_di_Sotto_Italy_4557_years_M_I_CT S6231_H2c1_

Interestingly some Remedello elements were spotted in genesis of Ljubljana culture, and here we see these N.Italian Remedello samples seem like a good match for BB's.

So this BB element in Dalmatian was predominately IE/Steppe (CW derived), and CW were similar to Srubnaya where for example the mtdna of Dalmatian was found, my own I1a1. Though in my case surviving I1a1 do not seem of Balkan origin.

What was Iron Age Croat that is Iapodian
Target: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
Distance: 4.5108% / 4.51080673
89.8 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
10.2 I0112_Germany_Bell_Beaker_4250_ybp

Just MBA Dalmatian (proto-Delmatae) with little bit of BB-like. Likely Urnfield LBA influence which was attested in them. This EIA sample might be a good fit for Venetian-Liburnian group which is not considered Illyrian anymore. This group had a heavy Urnfield influence. As did Pannonian group. But it seems in Liburnian group Urnfield dominated and imposed their language, whereas in Pannonian group they strongly influenced Illyrian language but they didn't replace it.

And who is closest to this EIA sample? Venetians.
Distance to: I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
5.43453770 Veneto
5.56891372 Piedmont
6.91223553 Friuli-VG
7.23040801 Liguria

As far as these Illyrians, that is the entire Delmato-Pannonian group is concerned I think no way were they at any point during their existence "more Southern" genetically. Southern Illyrians might have had significant southern admixture. But I believe these were as these samples show. You basically see in 800 years the only difference was this slight Central European Urnfield intrusion, very likely no mixing with additional "Southerners". Practically genetic continuity in 800 years. This already 700 BC and Iapodian is more NW than MBA Dalmatians. They were more likely to be like him in 400 BC..

So MBA was dominated by J-L283. Urnfield brought likely some R-L51 clades we found today in the area, with the likely addition of some E-V13 clades (might argue for some CTS9320 and L241 primarily).


Sure, superficially Thracians and Myceneans are kinda alike. But they still have some distance. And there is something unusual about Thracians, and also it seems Late Antiquity SZ19 is definitely a Thracian as he is close to IA Thracian and very distant from everyone else, which means this admixture definitely circulated in the area.

Target: I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp
Distance: 3.6854% / 3.68539366
88.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
11.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp


Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: 15.0178% / 15.01781376
76.8 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
23.2 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

There is something very off about Thracians, Myceneans are a great fit for Minoan + little Yamnaya which is logical, Thracians totally not. So I think these are derived of quite distinct elements.

Same with SZ19, SZ19 is very similar to I5769 even in components so must be even fully Thracian person.
Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: 17.2677% / 17.26771481
77.6 I0070_Greece_Minoan_Lassithi_4000_ybp
22.4 I0231_Russia_Yamnaya_Samara_published_4800_ybp

[Jana]

More:


Linguistically, Dalmatians, Pannonians and those above were different to the "Illyri Proper" so we should expect them to have a different signature than Illryi proper.

[Jana]

Main part:

The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

There is also clear continuation from Bronze age to early Iron Age Croatian samples, and they are all very homogenous, from Panonnia to Dalmatia sugesting genetic profile of "northen Illyrians" was indeed like that and quite well defined with little change.

Some Illyrian groups like Liburnians (living in the Adriatic coast) were considered part of Venetic group in the past.

So it seems west Paleo-Balkanites were mix of Bell Beaker (hence the western European shift) and local neolithic, while eastern Paleo-Balkanites were mix of Yamnya and local neolithics.
Not taking in account later Roman admixture ofc.

[Lucas]

You are on Eupedia too? What nick?

[Jana]

You are on Eupedia too? What nick?

I am not. But sometimes I like to read good posters there.

[vbnetkhio]

Main part:

The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

There is also clear continuation from Bronze age to early Iron Age Croatian samples, and they are all very homogenous, from Panonnia to Dalmatia sugesting genetic profile of "northen Illyrians" was indeed like that and quite well defined with little change.

Some Illyrian groups like Liburnians (living in the Adriatic coast) were considered part of Venetic group in the past.

So it seems west Paleo-Balkanites were mix of Bell Beaker (hence the western European shift) and local neolithic, while eastern Paleo-Balkanites were mix of Yamnya and local neolithics.
Not taking in account later Roman admixture ofc.

I don't think k13 is fit for analyzing such old admixtures like Steppe and CHG.

I think those Illyrians were actually a mix of Corded Ware and/or Yamnaya + north shifted neolithic farmers(compared to those in Greece and Bulgaria, for example). these north shifted farmers give them a fake Bell Beaker-like profile in calculators like k13. some of the Moldovan Scythians are also like this.

i believe in history and archaeology Illyrians usually aren't seen as Bell beaker descendants? and look at their haplogroups: j2b2, which seems to have come from Corded Ware, and (probably?) R1b-z2103, which seems to have come directly from Yamnaya.

[Dr_Maul]

I think I have the same Y DNA as these guys, J-Z638

[Ion Basescul]

Medieval Thracians and Illyrians... God they are dumb.
Also scoring similarly doesn't make them neither Thracian nor Illyrian. How many examples do we have of modern people from Southeast Europe scoring similarly to people from other countries? A lot

[Jana]

I don't think k13 is fit for analyzing such old admixtures like Steppe and CHG.

I think those Illyrians were actually a mix of Corded Ware and/or Yamnaya + north shifted neolithic farmers(compared to those in Greece and Bulgaria, for example). these north shifted farmers give them a fake Bell Beaker-like profile in calculators like k13. some of the Moldovan Scythians are also like this.

i believe in history and archaeology Illyrians usually aren't seen as Bell beaker descendants? and look at their haplogroups: j2b2, which seems to have come from Corded Ware, and (probably?) R1b-z2103, which seems to have come directly from Yamnaya.

Weren't Dalmatian neolithic farmers pretty Sardinian like though? They all are If I remember well from running them on G25. But somebody should check.
I don't understand these ancient migrations too well, I admit.

But it's interesting to note Celtic and Venetic influence is mentioned among northern Illyrian tribes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Pannonian_tribes

Could that be were Bell Beaker like influence comes from? Unnfield culture that's mentioned as penetrating the region is pre Celto-Italo-Germanic?

R1b-z2103 was found in Vučedol, which is definitely kind of Illyrian culture. Autosomaly same as EBA and IA samples but on Vahaduo and G25 seem to be neolithic Vučedol and not proper Vučedol sample.
Because in SE Euro paper were published samples burried in Vučedol which were neolithics too.

That marker def. Yamnaya and not BB.

This is all very confusing to me. Will we ever grasp it better?

[Jana]

Medieval Thracians and Illyrians... God they are dumb.
Also scoring similarly doesn't make them neither Thracian nor Illyrian. How many examples do we have of modern people from Southeast Europe scoring similarly to people from other countries? A lot

??

[vbnetkhio]

Weren't Dalmatian neolithic farmers pretty Sardinian like though? They all are If I remember well from running them on G25. But somebody should check.
I don't understand these ancient migrations too well, I admit.

But it's interesting to note Celtic and Venetic influence is mentioned among northern Illyrian tribes,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Pannonian_tribes

Could that be were Bell Beaker like influence comes from? Unnfield culture that's mentioned as penetrating the region is pre Celto-Italo-Germanic?

R1b-z2103 was found in Vučedol, which is definitely kind of Illyrian culture. Autosomaly same as EBA and IA samples but on Vahaduo and G25 seem to be neolithic Vučedol and not proper Vučedol sample.
Because in SE Euro paper were published samples burried in Vučedol which were neolithics too.

That marker def. Yamnaya and not BB.

This is all very confusing to me. Will we ever grasp it better?

farmers in Greece were pure EEF, as you go north there was more residual WHG, peaking in Britain. Sardinians are just one point on this spectrum. so if they were identical to Sardinians, that's already some north(WHG) shift.

[Ion Basescul]

??

Everyone on that forum is borderline obsessed with their nationality. I wouldn't trust them to even predict the weather tomorrow without bias.
Connecting those guys from Szolad to culture X or Y is as useful as predicting my mood by looking at the horoscope. They could have been a mix of a lot of different cultures. There's no way to tell.

[Jana]

Everyone on that forum is borderline obsessed with their nationality. I wouldn't trust them to even predict the weather tomorrow without bias.
Connecting those guys from Szolad to culture X or Y is as useful as predicting my mood by looking at the horoscope. They could have been a mix of a lot of different cultures. There's no way to tell.

Szolad samples aren't very relevant because we have actual Iron Age samples from SE Europe.
And I think they are right. It isn't hard to guess some of these were Romans, Panonnians(Illyrians) or Thracians based on their genetic make up.

Just like it is not hard to guess some of Scythians from Moldova were Getae actually.

There is still huge lack of samples from the region and people work with what's available.

[Jana]

farmers in Greece were pure EEF, as you go north there was more residual WHG, peaking in Britain. Sardinians are just one point on this spectrum. so if they were identical to Sardinians, that's already some north(WHG) shift.

I still don't think it's the answer, because you can't model these samples as Dalmatian neolithic + Yamnaya as far as I see.
Also thinking about R-U152 present in dinaric alps, could be from that Urnfield/Celtic/Venetic like introgression.

[vbnetkhio]

I still don't think it's the answer, because you can't model these samples as Dalmatian neolithic + Yamnaya as far as I see.
Also thinking about R-U152 present in dinaric alps, could be from that Urnfield/Celtic/Venetic like introgression.

but model where? in k13 (which the guy from Eupedia used) components are based on modern populations. in g25 too, but it's probably a bit more accurate.

[vbnetkhio]

Main part:

The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

There is also clear continuation from Bronze age to early Iron Age Croatian samples, and they are all very homogenous, from Panonnia to Dalmatia sugesting genetic profile of "northen Illyrians" was indeed like that and quite well defined with little change.

Some Illyrian groups like Liburnians (living in the Adriatic coast) were considered part of Venetic group in the past.

So it seems west Paleo-Balkanites were mix of Bell Beaker (hence the western European shift) and local neolithic, while eastern Paleo-Balkanites were mix of Yamnya and local neolithics.
Not taking in account later Roman admixture ofc.

of course.
Corded Ware was Yamnaya+ a bit of Narva(which was a WHG/EHG mix), so more "northern" than Yamnaya actually.
and BB was Corded Ware+West European farmers (those in Italy and Iberia being the most EEF shifted and those in Britain the most WHG)

this is my understanding at least.

[Jana]

but model where? in k13 (which the guy from Eupedia used) components are based on modern populations. in g25 too, but it's probably a bit more accurate.

Well, unfortunately most of us don't know how to work with more professional tools. :/

[Token]

Well, unfortunately most of us don't know how to work with more professional tools. :/

Nearly all of these models are rejected by qpAdm.

[Jana]

Nearly all of these models are rejected by qpAdm.

If you menage to get some decent ones, please post them here! :)

[vbnetkhio]

This is all very confusing to me. Will we ever grasp it better?

so to summarize there were:

1)an initial wave of r-z2103 directly from Yamnaya - the real Paleo-Balkanians
2)a wave of j2b2 from Corded Ware - proto-Illyrians?
3)wave(s) of BB, or Celtic, or Venetic influence- separated Pannonians and northern Illyrians(Liburni etc.) from the rest?
4)Scythian influence which made an impact on a part of Thracians, Getians/Dacians and Pannonians?

the E-V13 expansion could have also been an expansion of an IE group?

[vbnetkhio]

https://i.imgur.com/N9h2LcX.png

https://i.imgur.com/R7Ws7D7.png

some PCAs

[Jana]

Thank you Vbnetkhio! :)

[Jana]

I made great model for myself, and I like my entire family can be modeled well with Illyrian samples! I didn't include Thraco-Getae because they simply never lived west from Serbia/Kosovo.

West Balkanites can try this out:

Proto-Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,3 0.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.8 9,0.00,0.42,0.00
Proto-Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25. 54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08, 0.58,0.53,0.00
North_Illyrian:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12 .02,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00 ,0.00,0.00
North_Illyrian:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13 .00,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.0 0,0.00,0.64
North_Illyrian:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34. 15,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R70_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,3.21, 2.28,19.34,21.39,41.91,10.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.19,0 .00,1.38,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R71_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,6.09, 0.06,20.33,24.54,44.64,3.40,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 94,0.00,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R72_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.24 ,0.00,22.92,19.04,41.20,5.12,0.00,0.00,0.57,0.00,0 .91,0.00,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R73_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,11.96 ,1.16,19.72,17.30,34.38,11.41,2.22,0.01,0.03,0.19, 0.00,1.21,0.41
Imperial_Roman:R75_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,8.62, 0.00,22.68,21.74,35.29,9.37,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.21,0. 47,1.25,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R76_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,3.62, 3.30,16.77,23.96,38.85,10.18,1.73,0.00,0.00,0.82,0 .00,0.77,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R78_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.76, 2.77,22.82,22.14,43.72,2.03,0.00,0.10,0.00,0.27,0. 39,0.00,0.00
Proto-Germanic:SZ13_Hungary_Langobard_son.SZ24_father.SZ 7_brother.SZ22_1469_ybp,51.91,27.94,8.54,6.68,0.00 ,1.86,0.46,0.00,0.00,1.60,0.70,0.30,0.00
Proto-Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26. 28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0 .00,0.00
Proto-Germanic:SZ16_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,48.77,31. 63,9.58,6.50,0.00,0.00,1.35,0.00,0.85,0.66,0.45,0. 00,0.21
Jewish:Ashkenazi,15.32,10.16,18.44,10.29,34.61,5.9 8,1.04,0.79,0.97,0.46,0.29,1.15,0.50
Celtic:France_IA_COL153A,41.26,20.62,18.22,0,16.67 ,3.22,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Celtic:France_IA_ERS86,37.1,22.42,26.11,2.55,7.85, 1.32,0,0,0,0.15,0.98,0.76,0.75
Celtic:France_IA_ERS88,37.83,12.85,19.92,3.27,22.4 ,2.1,0,0,0,1.23,0,0.39,0
Celtic:DA111_Czech_HallstattBylany.SG_2702_ybp,48. 08,19.16,23.33,0.01,6.63,1.07,0.10,0.00,0.00,0.68, 0.00,0.24,0.69
Kavkazian:SIJ002_Sinyukha_Late_Maykop_culture_5125 _M_L_U4c1_,0.58,4.21,12.29,59.01,23.19,0.64,0.00,0 .00,0.00,0.00,0.08,0.00,0.00
Kavkazian:SIJ003_Sinyukha_Late_Maykop_5174_U4c1_,0 .00,4.16,12.63,61.56,21.08,0.57,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00
Hellenic:I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp,8.75,3.24 ,32.05,13.71,37.05,3.81,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.80,0.58,0 .00,0.00
Hellenic:I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_,10.52,2.73,31.92 ,8.82,36.83,8.03,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.86,0.00,0.3 0
Hellenic:I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_,18.69,1.27,31. 47,12.51,27.61,2.03,0.00,0.87,0.24,0.00,0.87,3.47, 0.98
Hellenic:I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp,20.11,0.0 0,30.28,9.34,35.01,3.56,0.00,0.00,1.40,0.00,0.00,0 .30,0.00

My father, who should be of pure Croatian origin scores like this:

Target: Father
Distance: 1.7957% / 1.79567159

55.0 Proto-Slavic
15.8 Imperial_Roman
14.6 North_Illyrian
13.6 Proto-Germanic
1.0 Celtic

I can't be modeled well without ancient Caucasus samples. My mother gets it too, and she is only half Croat. So I obviously inherited this mysterious Kavkaz affinity from her, as my father scores 0.
Sorry for offtopic, but this is really interesting. I noticed it long before on G25 too and I wonder...

Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 1.3400% / 1.33997398

51.8 Proto-Slavic
24.2 North_Illyrian
12.2 Proto-Germanic
7.0 Kavkazian
4.8 Imperial_Roman

[Skiz-gaaR]

...

what is italic_o vs italic ?

[Jana]

My guess would also be, based on DNA, that north Illyrian dialects from Dalmatian-Panonnian group were Centum variety of Indo-European.
Thracian - Satem

[Dušan]

I made great model for myself, and I like my entire family can be modeled well with Illyrian samples! I didn't include Thraco-Getae because they simply never lived west from Serbia/Kosovo.

West Balkanites can try this out:

Proto-Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,3 0.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.8 9,0.00,0.42,0.00
Proto-Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25. 54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08, 0.58,0.53,0.00
North_Illyrian:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12 .02,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00 ,0.00,0.00
North_Illyrian:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13 .00,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.0 0,0.00,0.64
North_Illyrian:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34. 15,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R70_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,3.21, 2.28,19.34,21.39,41.91,10.30,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.19,0 .00,1.38,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R71_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,6.09, 0.06,20.33,24.54,44.64,3.40,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 94,0.00,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R72_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.24 ,0.00,22.92,19.04,41.20,5.12,0.00,0.00,0.57,0.00,0 .91,0.00,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R73_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,11.96 ,1.16,19.72,17.30,34.38,11.41,2.22,0.01,0.03,0.19, 0.00,1.21,0.41
Imperial_Roman:R75_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,8.62, 0.00,22.68,21.74,35.29,9.37,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.21,0. 47,1.25,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R76_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,3.62, 3.30,16.77,23.96,38.85,10.18,1.73,0.00,0.00,0.82,0 .00,0.77,0.00
Imperial_Roman:R78_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.76, 2.77,22.82,22.14,43.72,2.03,0.00,0.10,0.00,0.27,0. 39,0.00,0.00
Proto-Germanic:SZ13_Hungary_Langobard_son.SZ24_father.SZ 7_brother.SZ22_1469_ybp,51.91,27.94,8.54,6.68,0.00 ,1.86,0.46,0.00,0.00,1.60,0.70,0.30,0.00
Proto-Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26. 28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0 .00,0.00
Proto-Germanic:SZ16_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,48.77,31. 63,9.58,6.50,0.00,0.00,1.35,0.00,0.85,0.66,0.45,0. 00,0.21
Jewish:Ashkenazi,15.32,10.16,18.44,10.29,34.61,5.9 8,1.04,0.79,0.97,0.46,0.29,1.15,0.50
Celtic:France_IA_COL153A,41.26,20.62,18.22,0,16.67 ,3.22,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Celtic:France_IA_ERS86,37.1,22.42,26.11,2.55,7.85, 1.32,0,0,0,0.15,0.98,0.76,0.75
Celtic:France_IA_ERS88,37.83,12.85,19.92,3.27,22.4 ,2.1,0,0,0,1.23,0,0.39,0
Celtic:DA111_Czech_HallstattBylany.SG_2702_ybp,48. 08,19.16,23.33,0.01,6.63,1.07,0.10,0.00,0.00,0.68, 0.00,0.24,0.69
Kavkazian:SIJ002_Sinyukha_Late_Maykop_culture_5125 _M_L_U4c1_,0.58,4.21,12.29,59.01,23.19,0.64,0.00,0 .00,0.00,0.00,0.08,0.00,0.00
Kavkazian:SIJ003_Sinyukha_Late_Maykop_5174_U4c1_,0 .00,4.16,12.63,61.56,21.08,0.57,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00
Hellenic:I9006_Greece_Mycenaean_3287_ybp,8.75,3.24 ,32.05,13.71,37.05,3.81,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.80,0.58,0 .00,0.00
Hellenic:I9010_Mycenaean_1351_bc_,10.52,2.73,31.92 ,8.82,36.83,8.03,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.86,0.00,0.3 0
Hellenic:I9033_Mycenaean_1352_bc_M_,18.69,1.27,31. 47,12.51,27.61,2.03,0.00,0.87,0.24,0.00,0.87,3.47, 0.98
Hellenic:I9041_Greece_Mycenaean_3250_ybp,20.11,0.0 0,30.28,9.34,35.01,3.56,0.00,0.00,1.40,0.00,0.00,0 .30,0.00

My father, who should be of pure Croatian origin scores like this:

Target: Father
Distance: 1.7957% / 1.79567159

55.0 Proto-Slavic
15.8 Imperial_Roman
14.6 North_Illyrian
13.6 Proto-Germanic
1.0 Celtic

I can't be modeled well without ancient Caucasus samples. My mother gets it too, and she is only half Croat. So I obviously inherited this mysterious Kavkaz affinity from her, as my father scores 0.
Sorry for offtopic, but this is really interesting. I noticed it long before on G25 too and I wonder...

Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 1.3400% / 1.33997398

51.8 Proto-Slavic
24.2 North_Illyrian
12.2 Proto-Germanic
7.0 Kavkazian
4.8 Imperial_Roman

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.4072% / 1.40724638
66.6 Proto-Slavic
19.2 Hellenic
10.2 Celtic
4.0 Kavkazian

[Jana]

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.4072% / 1.40724638
66.6 Proto-Slavic
19.2 Hellenic
10.2 Celtic
4.0 Kavkazian

You need modeling with Thracian samples, me thinks.

[Dušan]

You need modeling with Thracian samples, me thinks.

I think so, too.
Interesting that I didnt get any % of imperial Roman.

[Jana]

I think so, too.
Interesting that I didnt get any % of imperial Roman.

Try add this: Thracian:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30. 00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0 .00

[Dušan]

Try add this: Thracian:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30. 00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0 .00

Still the same.

[Dušan]

Try add this: Thracian:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30. 00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0 .00

Still the same.

[Jana]

Still the same.

Try to remove Celtic and Kavkaz.

[Dušan]

Try to remove Celtic and Kavkaz.

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.9790% / 1.97902323
69.2 Proto-Slavic
13.8 Hellenic
10.8 North_Illyrian
6.2 Imperial_Roman

[Jana]

Target: Dušan
Distance: 1.9790% / 1.97902323
69.2 Proto-Slavic
13.8 Hellenic
10.8 North_Illyrian
6.2 Imperial_Roman

You have high Slavic and high Hellenic-Med at the same time. I think you get that elsewhere too.

[vbnetkhio]

what is italic_o vs italic ?

italic_0 are Etruscans and Latini with Levantine and North African admixture.

[vbnetkhio]

https://i.imgur.com/N9h2LcX.png

https://i.imgur.com/R7Ws7D7.png

some PCAs

this is what i think happened in Hungary from the Chalcholithic onwards:
somewhere between 2700 and 2300 bc - Yamnaya arrives, mixes with local farmers and forms an Italic_IA-like population. we don't have samples from this period, im guessing based on later samples.
2300 bc -Bell Beakers arrived and mixed with this population. the Hungary BB samples capture these two populations in the moment of mixing. the resulting population was probably just slightly north shifted.
2000 bc -the population gets strongly pulled towards Unetice, which was autosomally Scandinavian-like. (hun ba/ia on the PCA)
800 bc - we find a heavily steppe admixed sample with an east asian haplogroup N-Y6503 which is common among ethnic Serbs today. (he is in the Hungary/Moldova Scythian cluster)
500 bc - the samples are again almost identical as in 2000 bc, just slightly shifted towards the N-Y6503 Scythian. even Unetice shifted samples are still here , although proper Unetice doesn't exist anymore, and got replaced by autosomally different populations. (also in hun ba/ia on the PCA)

in Bulgaria, among the EBA samples, there is a main cluster of 4 samples ("Thracian" on the pca), and two which look like first generation steppe/farmer mixes. one of them is labeled as Yamnaya.
in the MLBA there is a pure steppe sample with the r1a-z93 haplo. i think this is obviuosly a different wave of steppe migration from the initial Yamnaya one.
then in the IA, there is again a sample wich falls in the EBA Thracian cluster. maybe it was a similar story as in Hungary.

among samples from Croatia, there's something interesting i didn't notice before. the Starcevo/Vucedol r-z2103 sample is actually quite similar to the later Illyrians from Dalmatia. He is included as an Illyrian sample on the PCA. The R1 sample from the Italian east coast is also there.

the biggest mistery remains: who spread E-v13?

[Token]

If you menage to get some decent ones, please post them here! :)


Main part:

The reason modern Spaniards cluster with Illyrians is that Illyrians were a mixture of Bell Beaker and Neolithic (Dalmatian MBA were 60 % Central Euro Bell Beaker + 40 Dalmatian Cardial EEF) elements whereas Thracians and Greeks were Yamnaya + Neolithics (in various proportions, with Getae having the most, Myceneans least of Yamnaya). And BB and Yamnaya were not quite alike. Also some differences in Neolithic elements, but the main difference was along the BB-Yamnaya cline.

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA
MA1
CHG
Villabruna
Ganj_Dareh_N
Jordan_PPNB
Ust_Ishim
Anatolia_N
EHG
Iron_Gates_HG
Kostenki14
Iberomaurusian

Croatia_MBA requires some Yamnaya-related ancestry besides Bell Beaker as can be seen here:

Croatia_MBA
Croatia_N 0.448
Germany_BellBeaker 0.385
Yamnaya_Samara 0.167
tail prob 0.2158
chisq 11.955

Croatia_MBA
Croatia_N 0.355
Germany_BellBeaker 0.645
tail prob 0.0846051
chisq 16.563


There is also clear continuation from Bronze age to early Iron Age Croatian samples, and they are all very homogenous, from Panonnia to Dalmatia sugesting genetic profile of "northen Illyrians" was indeed like that and quite well defined with little change.
I added Yamnaya_Samara to the right pops and tried Croatia_EIA as Croatia_MBA + Bell Beaker. It is rejected. Croatia_MBA + Myceanaean is barely passable, the std errors are quite high:

Croatia_EIA
Croatia_MBA 0.766
Greece_Mycenaean 0.234
tail prob 0.058833
chisq 19.128

[vbnetkhio]

there is one weird thing about the Moldovan samples. the samples on gedmatch (uploaded by Anthrogenica user Serganover) have very different results from the same samples published later by reich lab.
the gedmatch version looks more similar to other Balkan iron age samples:


Serganover's version:


Distance to: ScythianMoldova_SCY197_Moldova_288502632_BC
5.05924896 Lombardy
6.82756179 Piedmont
6.97853853 Swiss-Italian2
7.12679451 Swiss_Italian
8.17178071 Veneto
8.26632929 Liguria
8.45540064 Trentino
8.92888571 FRA_Provence
9.26836555 Emilia
9.47829626 Spanish_Valencia
9.84430292 Portuguese
10.19473884 Spanish_Extremadura
10.28693832 Spanish_Andalucia
10.45607479 Tuscany
10.54939335 Spanish_Murcia
10.83650313 Friuli-VG
10.85466720 FrenchCorsica
11.15533953 Spanish_Galicia
11.24464317 Spanish_Cataluna
11.57187971 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
11.98993745 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
12.70738762 Tuscan
12.82517446 FRA_Septimania
13.13780042 AostaValley
13.33125275 Spanish_Cantabria


Distance to: scy192_scythian_2863_2503bce_
7.61036793 Lombardy
8.21921529 FrenchCorsica
8.51479301 Liguria
8.54334244 Emilia
8.61624048 Tuscany
9.29774704 Piedmont
9.51386882 Veneto
11.22844602 Tuscan
11.44571972 Trentino
11.50222152 Romagna
11.89408677 Swiss-Italian2
12.29107400 Lazio
12.29144825 Umbria
12.49542716 FRA_Provence
12.78197559 Friuli-VG
13.06155044 Marche
13.11122039 Swiss_Italian
13.40427171 Albanian_north_Albania
13.68164829 Albanian_Kosovo
14.02238567 Greek_Western-Thrace
14.25308388 Spanish_Andalucia
14.44901727 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
14.49124908 Albanian
14.53129726 Spanish_Extremadura
14.61428753 Albanian_Albania

reich lab version:


Distance to: scy197_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
6.87866266 Albanian_north_Albania
7.29365478 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
7.64342855 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
7.69003251 Albanian_Kosovo
7.71172484 Albanian_Albania
7.80235862 Albanian
7.81294439 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
8.14415128 Albanian_central_Albania
8.32019831 Tuscany
8.68545336 Albanian_Macedonia
8.75502142 Romagna
8.80964490 Kosovo_Albanian
9.07295983 Albanian_south_Albania
9.07667340 Greek_Western-Thrace
9.21926244 Vlach_North-Macedonia
9.23403487 FrenchCorsica
9.39195933 Albanian_Montenegro
9.45345440 Emilia
9.46202410 Tuscan
9.54204381 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
9.55164384 Greek_Thessaly
9.60281729 Greek_Central-Macedonia
9.68273722 Lazio
9.99962999 Umbria
10.20947599 Marche


Distance to: scy192_Moldova_Scythian.SG_1650_ybp
3.88591045 Albanian_central_Albania
3.90220451 Greek_Eastern-Macedonia
3.92116054 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East
4.96767551 Albanian_Albania
4.97490703 Vlach_Central-Macedonia
5.12555363 Albanian
5.26485517 Albanian_Kosovo
5.44478650 Albanian_north_Albania
5.51688206 Kosovo_Albanian
5.74342232 Greek_Peloponnese
5.96184535 Greek_Thessaly
6.19620852 Albanian_Montenegro
6.32176399 Greek_Western-Thrace
6.83904233 Albanian_south_Albania
7.13965685 Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-Central
7.35713939 Vlach_North-Macedonia
7.42800108 Greek_Central-Macedonia
7.46892228 Greek_Thessaloniki
7.49430450 Albanian_Macedonia
7.66047431 GR_Macedonia
7.76470379 GR_Peloponese
7.82357801 Bulgarian_Thrace
7.98338274 Greek_Western-Macedonia
8.26897817 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
8.27527643 Turk_Kazanlik

the Steppe and Germanic samples from this set also have two different versions. both are on Vahaduo k13 ancient

[Jana]

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA
MA1
CHG
Villabruna
Ganj_Dareh_N
Jordan_PPNB
Ust_Ishim
Anatolia_N
EHG
Iron_Gates_HG
Kostenki14
Iberomaurusian

Croatia_MBA requires some Yamnaya-related ancestry besides Bell Beaker as can be seen here:

Croatia_MBA
Croatia_N 0.448
Germany_BellBeaker 0.385
Yamnaya_Samara 0.167
tail prob 0.2158
chisq 11.955

Croatia_MBA
Croatia_N 0.355
Germany_BellBeaker 0.645
tail prob 0.0846051
chisq 16.563


I added Yamnaya_Samara to the right pops and tried Croatia_EIA as Croatia_MBA + Bell Beaker. It is rejected. Croatia_MBA + Myceanaean is barely passable, the std errors are quite high:

Croatia_EIA
Croatia_MBA 0.766
Greece_Mycenaean 0.234
tail prob 0.058833
chisq 19.128

Thanks, fantastic work! :)
Makes sense, Vučedol was Yamnaya R1b.

[Jana]

the biggest mistery remains: who spread E-v13?

Thracians.

How could have you missed this?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?331528-Viminacium-YDNA-leaked&p=6873391

SE Bulgarian Iron Age will be almost completely E (various clades of EV13 mostly, but others too I think - those were classical Thracians)
Around 30% of Viminancium is E-V13, representing Romanized Moesians who were subset of Thracians. For real deep clades we'll need to wait for BAM files analysis.

Read the thread.

[vbnetkhio]

Thracians.

How could have you missed this?
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?331528-Viminacium-YDNA-leaked&p=6873391

SE Bulgarian Iron Age will be almost completely E (various clades of EV13 mostly, but others too I think - those were classical Thracians)
Around 30% of Viminancium is E-V13, representing Romanized Moesians who were subset of Thracians. For real deep clades we'll need to wait for BAM files analysis.

Read the thread.

give me some hints, are the e-v13 samples identified as locals (by archaeology, isotopes etc.) or what?

could we rule out, for example, E-V13 coming from a group of Greek, or South Italian settlers, who had a founder effect during the Roman imperial era? (just one wild idea)

E-v13 is the most dominant pre-Slavic haplogroup in the Western Balkans too.
do you think there was a large scale Thracian migration towards today's Croatia at one point?

[vbnetkhio]

---

[vbnetkhio]

---

[Jana]

give me some hints, are the e-v13 samples identified as locals (by archaeology, isotopes etc.) or what?

could we rule out, for example, E-V13 coming from a group of Greek, or South Italian settlers, who had a founder effect during the Roman imperial era? (just one wild idea)

E-v13 is the most dominant pre-Slavic haplogroup in the Western Balkans too.
do you think there was a large scale Thracian migration towards today's Croatia at one point?

Well I don't think it was only Thracian. Pretty sure Illyrians had it too, albeit in smaller numbers (and with different deeper branches). This is my guess.

If you read papers about ethnic make up of the area (links in the thread), you'll see it was very cosmopolitan place with strong Paleo-Balkan element. Not necessary Moesian only, there were legions of Dardanians, Macedonians etc encamped in Vinimacium too.

In settlement lot of Dacian ceramics was found. And Dacians are ultimately another subset of Thracians.

I think autosomal and mtdna analysis can shed more light on exact origins of these samples.

So, it's almost certain E-V13 was main classical Thracian marker (depending on subclades, some V13 clades in Balkans have northern origins), but question remains who brought it there.

Proto Thracians were probably closer to that R1a Z93 guy with Srubnaya like genetic profile. They came from steppe, with a Baltoid like language, I doubt proto Thracians brought E-V13.

Who did? I still have no clue.

But by time of classic Thracians were formed, E-V13 took part in their ethnogenesis as they assimilated local population. Classic era Thracians will likely be Mycenean like with extra steppe like that Bulgarian IA sample we got and which was likely a classic Thracian, basesd on dating and location it's from.

Think of V13 for Thracian as Din for Slavs. Both took part to form these people as we know them, but neither is their "most original" marker. This is my opinion.

And I still hope we find some EV13 in Balkan neolithic like Thessalian one but looks like it had later expansion from Danubian regions.

Also I see now you read the thread few days back, I even upvoted you. Sorry for confusion.