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Loki
09-14-2011, 09:04 PM
Can China save Europe? (http://money.cnn.com/2011/09/14/markets/thebuzz/index.htm?iid=HP_LN)

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/09/14/markets/thebuzz/buzz-bric.ju.top.jpg

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- In the late 1980s, developed nations helped bail out Latin America and other emerging markets.

The issuance of so-called Brady bonds (named for the former Reagan/Bush-era Treasury secretary) enabled Brazil and other debt-laden countries to find a way out of the fiscal abyss.

Oh, how the tables have turned.

With Europe's credit and banking crisis seeming to get worse by the day, there are now several reports that Brazil -- as well as Russia, India and China -- may look to buy up a portion of sovereign debt from troubled European nations. You could a call it a BRIC Brady bond plan for the 21st century.

"Capital is flowing from lesser developed countries to higher per capita income countries. We are not used to that," said Jeffrey Bergstrand, a professor of finance with the Mendoza College of Business at the University of Notre Dame." But it makes sense because of the dramatic shift in global wealth."
Although China premier Wen Jiabao confirmed at a World Economic Forum meeting Wednesday that it may step up its purchase of European debt, nothing is set in stone (or BRICs if you will.)

But a rescue of Europe by some of the more rapidly growing emerging markets would be a delicious twist. And it would also be a savvy move by the leaders of the developing world.

After all, it doesn't do Brazil any good if Europe is in such a mess that it starts to buy less oil. And all those "made in China" consumer goods? Europe (and the U.S., of course) is a big importer.

"It's an ironic turn of events. But emerging market sovereign wealth funds can invest in Europe to help keep their customers afloat," said Robert Howe, CEO of Geomatrix, an Asia-focused hedge fund based in Hong Kong. "It could stop the euro zone from freezing up, which would help keep their own economies from stalling."

But Howe said that while investments from Brazil, China and others could help stem the bleeding, it's not the ultimate solution.

"There isn't the capacity for all the BRICs to get together and bail out Europe," he said. "The problem is bigger than the sovereign wealth funds of Russia and China. What saves the day is the ECB and Germans blink and issue euro bonds."

The creation of a so-called euro bond, which would act as a common debt instrument much like the euro now acts as a unified currency, has been mentioned by many economists and financial experts as a possible way to help end the crisis.

A euro bond, in principle, would have lower yields than bonds for Greece, Ireland and Portugal -- the three most troubled Europe members.

If those nations could refinance some of their higher-yielding debt, that could provide much needed-relief. But stronger nations like Germany have not been keen on the idea of paying higher interest rates for their debt to subsidize Europe's weakest links.

Still, experts said a euro bond can't be ruled out yet. China and other nations may be able to exert pressure on Europe to get its fiscal house in order as a condition for investments.

And keeping potential purchasers of their goods and services financially flush wouldn't be the only motivation for the developing nations to buy up bonds of European nations.

It would also give emerging markets a way to spice up some of their foreign debt holdings and move away from the low-yielding United States. China, in particular, has voiced some displeasure about how the uncertain economic environment in the U.S. has devalued the dollar and U.S. Treasury bonds.

As of July, China held $1.17 trillion worth of Treasuries. The remaining three BRIC nations held a collective $356 billion. The yield on the 10-year is now a paltry 2%. Euro debt, while obviously much riskier, could offer these countries more bang for their real, ruble, rupee and renminbi.

"It's no secret that emerging economies want to diversify beyond the U.S. But the question is what are they willing to buy and what are they willing to pay for it," said Steven Huber, manager of the T. Rowe Price Strategic Income Fund (PRSNX) in Baltimore.

But is it really that simple? If the BRICs just bought Greek and Italian debt, would that really help stabilize Europe and boost potential returns in their own fixed-income portfolios?

Bergstrand thinks so. He said developed markets are more worried about another Lehman-like event hurting them and that's why they realize they have to do something. Adding higher-yielding bonds may be an added benefit but it will not be the driving factor behind a decision to act.

"Buying euro debt would not be a Machiavellian move," he said. "It is in the best interest of the developing world for Western Europe to do well."
Is default the next Greek tragedy?

But Aaron Gurwitz, chief investment officer at Barclays Wealth in New York, said he wasn't sure if China or other emerging market countries really wanted to make a bold bet on all of Europe. He said that it may be safer to buy more German bonds, as opposed to debt from the PIIGS.

Gurwitz said that if China was truly sincere in wanting to assist Europe, there's another way to do so.

It could let the renminbi, or yuan as its more commonly known, float more freely on the global financial markets. China has been criticized for keeping the yuan artificially low to make Chinese-made goods cheaper.

"What I really wish the Chinese would do is stop buying so many foreign bonds and just let its currency appreciate a bit," he said."That would allow the Europeans and U.S. to export more to China, and that could help the global economy."

That may be asking for a bit much. It is becoming increasingly clear that the gap between the developing and developed markets is continuing to narrow -- and the emerging markets are dealing more from a position of strength than ever before.

Joe McCarthy
09-17-2011, 12:50 PM
The implications here are not difficult to foresee. One of China's top priorities with the EU is to get it to lift its arms embargo. This will give them leverage to try and drive a wedge between the US and Europe.

beaver
09-17-2011, 01:18 PM
China can save Europe. Almost all European industry goes to China (or around). So, the living standards of Europe and China will draw together with time. So, Europe will stop to be attractive for various Arabs and Africans (and Russians :D).

ikki
09-17-2011, 01:24 PM
And the price?
The companies have already transfered their jobs there and all their technology.

Now the chinese will purchase those companies and own all the patents. Europe will be left holding a population holding nothing but unemployment, huge taxes and inflexible markets. Jo jobs, no technology, no knowhow... might aswell burn the cities and kill our children while at it (they wont have to starve when dead, its merciful).

ikki
09-17-2011, 01:34 PM
"What I really wish the Chinese would do is stop buying so many foreign bonds and just let its currency appreciate a bit," he said."That would allow the Europeans and U.S. to export more to China, and that could help the global economy."

oh ffs... ofcourse they will never do that! They remember quite well what happened to japan. Damn these fungibrained idiots that have destroyed the west! Guess the sole hope now is to drop 95% of the value of the euro... to be done with moneyprinting. That ought to wipe out most of the debts too. And when doing that, raise minimum resertve requirements to 100%. Then do another 95% depriciation move.

Then there will be 400 times as much cash, but only 20 times as much money as electronic money is wiped out. Then keep on printing until the debts are gone.

AussieScott
09-17-2011, 01:53 PM
The USA debt repayments/year pays for China's military budget alone, that is a very disturbing fact. China will have a blue water fleet Navy before 2020 at this rate, increasing there power projection and bully tactics.

Giving China more leverage and income/year will only degrade the West's position in the world.

Another note is Europe would be under their thumb for more favourable immigration and education issues, Europe has enough diversity enriches...

If a mini recession is enabled perhaps that would encourage China to float their currency. Being if Europe goes, USA goes further, China goes and Australia mining boom collapses, giving a GFC 2. That would certainly give China more encouragement to float their currency.

Better to take a little pain now to even the board, then to write the West's suicide note on more debt...

Talvi
09-17-2011, 02:05 PM
Im not sure and I didnt read this article but what Ive understood is that Chinas economy can easily collapse within the next few years due to bad investments within the country.

beaver
09-17-2011, 02:43 PM
And the price?
The companies have already transfered their jobs there and all their technology.
Honestly, we have a fight between California/Massachusetts (Boston)/state Washington (not DC) vs. China. Americans have already successfully sold to Chineses all their "stone age" (including all PC and laptops) and work hard on the absolutely new generation - cloud computing, thin clients and so on. And Chineses will be forced to throw all they had bought in the trash can and buy new American technologies. (Btw, there are now maybe already more Indians/Pakistanis in the Silicone walley than "white Europeans" of all sorts.) I dont even speak about other industries.

ikki
09-17-2011, 03:27 PM
Thats just the thing, by buying all the companies those will be chinese technology, and they will be the only ones making any research as they will end up owning all the patents and the companies doing research and developing new products.

The most advanced american company remaining will be a hotdog stand.

Albion
09-17-2011, 03:34 PM
China wants to prop up Europe so they'll continue to buy their crap, same with America.

beaver
09-17-2011, 04:00 PM
Thats just the thing, by buying all the companies those will be chinese technology
Any technology will be Chinese but only when Americans have decided: it is time. All garbage goes to China immediately.

Loki
09-23-2011, 05:53 AM
Will China rescue the West? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15016828)

From a rooftop terrace on Shanghai's historic Bund, overlooking the city's magnificent skyline, it was difficult just a couple of hours ago to believe that global markets are in meltdown.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/55530000/jpg/_55530431_009134074-1.jpg

It was all deluxe brands and boomtime euphoria at a party thrown by Sir Richard Branson.

China is still working hard and partying hard, more skyscrapers are blotting out the sun, and its business leaders regard the crisis in the rich West with both detachment and a sense that the cloud over the US and Europe may provide an opportunity for them.

Guo Guangchang, the chairman of Fosun, China's largest conglomerate, told me in an interview that he will take advantage of the fall in share prices to take big stakes in Western businesses - but only where those businesses have the potential to grow in the one place where he sees growth as assured, China.

Over at the largest lighting manufacturer in China, NVC, its chairman, Wu Changjiang, says if his export markets in America and Europe tumble back into recession, he will simply prioritise selling to China - where he says the demand is becoming stronger.

That's the point. There are signs of modest economic slowdown in China. And the Hong Kong and Shanghai stock markets have caught the same cold as the London Stock Exchange and Wall Street.

But China is a world away from slump - and the mood among the Chinese elite is that their country is better protected from the turmoil in the developed world than it was during the great banking crisis of 2008, when China's economy temporarily ground to a halt.

That may be naive. But it also means that although the financially strong Chinese government and Chinese businesses are in a position to help the ailing richer economies - by lending to countries with excessive debts, like Italy, by investing in companies short of capital, even by backing infrastructure projects that create jobs - they will strike a hard bargain.

Little sympathy

That hard bargain mght be Western governments being less resistant to the idea of Chinese businesses buying companies in the US and Europe that are regarded as somehow of strategic national importance to us.

The Chinese might also demand the relaxation of restrictions on the exports of certain technologies to them.

The big point is that I got absolutely no sense here that the Chinese feel we are all in this together.

Intellectually they understand that China's vast trade and financial surpluses are causally linked to the unsustainably large debts of the US, UK and a swathe of the eurozone.

But emotionally they take the view that the US and much of Europe have lived high on the hog for too long - and that we need to clean up our own mess.

Contra Mundum
09-23-2011, 06:31 AM
Not sure China can save the West but their continued economic expansion creates investment and trade opportunities for Western countries that can help keep the world economy afloat. Same goes for India and other emerging markets. It seems Western countries are in a slow decline because of declining birthrates. The answer isn't bringing in more immigrants from Africa, The Muslim world and Latin America, it will actually accelerate the decline.