Do psychiatrists take it TOO far with children?

[Boudica]

Is it just me or do psychologists/psychiatrists get a bit too carried away at times when it comes to diagnosing children? I will give a perfect example. A 7 year old boy that is about to be 8 was diagnosed with ADHD, and an anxiety disorder when he was taken by his mother to a psychiatrist. Please keep in mind that his mother does not discipline him correctly (if ever) and he can get away with anything he wants, and do anything he wants. The reason for the psychiatrist's diagnosis of ADHD is because "he is unable to pay attention at school especially after lunch, becomes hyper active, and constantly refuses to pay attention to things school related". Gee, that doesn't sound like the result of a child with no discipline that gets bored at school like most children do when they are young and full of energy, does it? The reason for the psychiatrist's diagnosis of an anxiety disorder (which is a pretty hardcore diagnosis IMO) is because "he is afraid of the dark at night when he goes to sleep, and can not go to sleep with out there being some sort of light on, he also dislikes going to bed at night". DOES THIS NOT SOUND LIKE ANY CHILD?! I know that I, like many other people, was afraid of the dark as a child and hated having to go to sleep, a child would hate the idea of sleep especially after consuming a large amount of MOUNTAIN DEW right before bed time like this child does :)! This is so common!

This is a real life scenario, I know the boy. I can tell you right now that his problem is having a parent that spoils him, never disciplines him, and lets him do whatever he wants with out there being any consequences. Of course I believe in mental disorders and I believe that children can have them, but in cases like this is it not complete bullshit? Is the psychiatrist not taking it WAY too far? What is your opinion on children and psychology, or cases similar to this.. Discuss

[Curtis24]

Well, the ADHD thing is becaue many children aren't suited for academics. The parents get desperate, and they make up some bull definition so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Keep in mind, also, that psychiatrists are trying to justify their existence and keep earning money.

[Raskolnikov]

The common psychologist/psychiatrist/counselor you find near schools and suburban parents is a type of psychopath, but:

"A 7 year old boy that is about to be 8 was diagnosed with ADHD, and an anxiety disorder when he was taken by his mother to a psychiatrist."

They are not any kind of psychic police unless you seek them out and pay them to delude you. You're focusing on the psychiatrist, who is a type of salesmen, but who exists because the mother accepted what she heard from this or that source. Not that this is her reason, but if you just accepted a television plot where a neglected, spoiled and intelligent kid is portrayed as a potential parent killer that needs to be put in a mental hospital or defeated in a physical showdown on the edge of a rooftop, you can see why some people are convinced to hire a psychoanalyst to complicate really simple issues of their (ir)responsibility.

This woman should be condemned for this by you and everyone else she knows - but sometimes that's not too many people.

[Don]

- Of course I believe in mental disorders and I believe that children can have them, but in cases like this is it not complete bullshit?

- Is the psychiatrist not taking it WAY too far?

- What is your opinion on children and psychology, or cases similar to this.. Discuss

- No.

- No.

- An early diagnostic can not be negative regarding disorders that very usually evolve in greater problems in the adult life.

[Boudica]

- No.

- No.

- An early diagnostic can not be negative regarding disorders that very usually evolve in greater problems in the adult life.

How is that an early diagnostic?? His supposed "symptoms" are nothing more then something many children go through, especially given the circumstances!!

[Osweo]

Such fakirs and witch-doctors should not be allowed within fifty feet of a child.

[Absinthe]

I agree with Don here, NO it is not far fetched, ADHD is a real condition that correlates with other mental disorders (e.g. conduct disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder)) so an early diagnosis is significant for the prevention of other problems later in life.

Also, children with ADHD need to be diagnosed so that the educational system is notified of their condition and not attribute certain characteristics to boredom, lack of intelligence, lack of studying, etc.

I also have a real life scenario, Boudica.

My brother is an ADHD child but in Greece psychological support is not readily available in schools, so he wasn't diagnosed until he was 10.

You know what happened?

Because he suffered from this condition and the teachers were unaware of it, he was constantly being kicked out of class, he was repeatedly in detention due to what seemed to be "misconduct", which was basically hyperactivity and attention deficit,
he was given bad marks in school because teachers thought he was "stupid" and he had to go through traumatic school years where he was himself convinced he is stupid and a poor student.

When they finally took him to a child psychiatrist and he was diagnosed with the condition, he went off to a different school that had a different system, relying more on pupils conversating about the lesson in the class than having to sit silent throughout the whole class and pay attention to the teacher speaking.

That worked miracles for him! He was never bored again, he was very active and talkative and his marks improved significantly.... Now he is finishing the lyceum and about to give exams to enter the University, and he is doing just fine :)

Knowing that he has this condition also took away the "stupid" taboo that others had imposed on him during his first school years. Imagine what would have happened if my father and his wife thought like you, and would not have taken him to the psychologist. They would have basically ruined his life.

[Raskolnikov]

When they finally took him to a child psychiatrist and he was diagnosed with the condition, he went off to a school with a different system which relies more on conversation in the class than having to sit silent throughout the whole class and listen to the teacher speak.
That worked miracles for him! He was never bored again, he was very active and talkative and his marks improved significantly.... Now he is finishing the lyceum and about to give exams to enter the University, and he is doing just fine :)Sounds like the "psychological diagnosis" here was "not subhuman" or "male".

I personally inverted my 6-8 hours of boredom into nervous-muscular masochism.

[rhiannon]

Is it just me or do psychologists/psychiatrists get a bit too carried away at times when it comes to diagnosing children? I will give a perfect example. A 7 year old boy that is about to be 8 was diagnosed with ADHD, and an anxiety disorder when he was taken by his mother to a psychiatrist. Please keep in mind that his mother does not discipline him correctly (if ever) and he can get away with anything he wants, and do anything he wants. The reason for the psychiatrist's diagnosis of ADHD is because "he is unable to pay attention at school especially after lunch, becomes hyper active, and constantly refuses to pay attention to things school related". Gee, that doesn't sound like the result of a child with no discipline that gets bored at school like most children do when they are young and full of energy, does it? The reason for the psychiatrist's diagnosis of an anxiety disorder (which is a pretty hardcore diagnosis IMO) is because "he is afraid of the dark at night when he goes to sleep, and can not go to sleep with out there being some sort of light on, he also dislikes going to bed at night". DOES THIS NOT SOUND LIKE ANY CHILD?! I know that I, like many other people, was afraid of the dark as a child and hated having to go to sleep, a child would hate the idea of sleep especially after consuming a large amount of MOUNTAIN DEW right before bed time like this child does :)! This is so common!

This is a real life scenario, I know the boy. I can tell you right now that his problem is having a parent that spoils him, never disciplines him, and lets him do whatever he wants with out there being any consequences. Of course I believe in mental disorders and I believe that children can have them, but in cases like this is it not complete bullshit? Is the psychiatrist not taking it WAY too far? What is your opinion on children and psychology, or cases similar to this.. Discuss

Yes!There are some sociobiological explanations for ADHD's and Autism's increasing prevalence......but there is a fat lot of overdiagnosing going on as well which just confuzzles the issue further.

[Han Cholo]

Having too much time in your hands can indeed produce lots of mental illnesses

[rhiannon]

I agree with Don here, NO it is not far fetched, ADHD is a real condition that correlates with other mental disorders (e.g. conduct disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduct_disorder)) so an early diagnosis is significant for the prevention of other problems later in life.Very true. Conduct disorder is also correlated with future psychopathy...


Also, children with ADHD need to be diagnosed so that the educational system is notified of their condition and not attribute certain characteristics to boredom, lack of intelligence, lack of studying, etc.Also true in theory....but the condition is definitely overdiagnosed here in the US where frantic parents are always on a search to put a label on what may be nothing more than an unruly brat who lacks parental discipline (as Boudica mentioned in her post),


I also have a real life scenario, Boudica.

My brother is an ADHD child but in Greece psychological support is not readily available in schools, so he wasn't diagnosed until he was 10.

You know what happened?

Because he suffered from this condition and the teachers were unaware of it, he was constantly being kicked out of class, he was repeatedly in detention due to what seemed to be "misconduct", which was basically hyperactivity and attention deficit,
he was given bad marks in school because teachers thought he was "stupid" and he had to go through traumatic school years where he was himself convinced he is stupid and a poor student.

When they finally took him to a child psychiatrist and he was diagnosed with the condition, he went off to a different school that had a different system, relying more on pupils conversating about the lesson in the class than having to sit silent throughout the whole class and pay attention to the teacher speaking.

That worked miracles for him! He was never bored again, he was very active and talkative and his marks improved significantly.... Now he is finishing the lyceum and about to give exams to enter the University, and he is doing just fine :)

Knowing that he has this condition also took away the "stupid" taboo that others had imposed on him during his first school years. Imagine what would have happened if my father and his wife thought like you, and would not have taken him to the psychologist. They would have basically ruined his life.

Good to hear this boy was able to benefit from the diagnosis. I realize that stories like this are the backdrop for why early diagnosis is a good thing. However, ADHD is overdiagnosed probably much moreso than even Autism or Aspberger's...

[Fortis in Arduis]

Perhaps, but:

Well, I had an early diagnosis for ADHD at age 11.

My parents and teachers forgot all about this and treated me like a naughty child who wilfully misbehaved.

I received no special support, apart from being put up two years at school on the strength of an IQ test, which came out normal to off-the-scale ridiculously high for everything except social reasoning and something else.

This should have set alarm bells ringing, along with my persistent echolalia, and much else besides.

I was not a model pupil, could hardly concentrate, yet, achieved average grades, amongst my new peers who were two years my senior.

It was a horrible experience, and my parents did not help, nor did my teachers.

It has left me with a negative 'can't do' attitude towards just about everything, which I am struggling to defeat.

It was not overdiagnosed in my case, but no support was given and I was treated very poorly, and I feel hard done by.

I obtained a further diagnosis for Asperger's Syndrome in 2007. The whole thing just makes me want to yawn and go back to bed.

Even with the diagnoses, it has still been a shower of excrement. :)

My parents and teachers could not have applied much more discipline without really exhausting themselves, and actually, I think that they did.

[Grumpy Cat]

It's the drug companies. I was going to post a thread on this a while back but I get insulted every time I post, so I rarely do anymore.

Big Pharma's Brazen Crusade to Push Pills on Little Kids


Every year, pharmaceutical companies spend billions to get doctors to prescribe drugs to children. Johnson & Johnson even distributes tons of Legos that advertise its latest anti-psychotic, which causes diabetes, weight gain, and even breasts in boys and girls who take it.

In the past decade, America's pharmaceutical industry has knowingly marketed dozens of dangerous drugs to millions of children, a group that executives apparently view as a lucrative, untapped market for their products. Most kids have no one to look out for their interests except anxious parents who put their trust in doctors. As it turns out, that trust is often misplaced. Big Pharma spends massive amounts to entertain physicians, send them on luxury vacations and ply them with an endless supply of free products. As a result, hundreds of thousands of American kids—some as young as three years old—have become dependent on amphetamines like Adderall and a pharmacopeia of other drugs that allegedly treat depression, insomnia, aggression and other mental health disorders.

The fact that none of these powerful mood-altering medications have been approved by the FDA to treat children under 10 has posed no obstacle to the industry's marketing masterminds. They've waved off objections by some some doctors who wonder how these complex drugs will affect the vulnerable brains and bodies of their young patients. Other experts have warned that children exposed to this multi-molecular barrage on their central nervous systems could potentially be at much higher risk of becoming adults who are addicted to chemicals, prescription and otherwise. But thanks to a billion-dollar advertising campaign, millions of kids across the nation are now taking pills to control a long litany of "behavioral problems."

Luckily, Johnson and Johnson is not getting off scot-free. Last week, Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakely announced that the state was suing the world's biggest pharmaceutical firm, Johnson & Johnson, for illegally promoting Risperdal, an "atypical anti-psychotic", for off-label treatment of childhood schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, autism, hyperactivity and attention deficit disorder, depression and anxiety, sleep disorders, anger management, mood enhancement or stabilization. As BNet's Placebo Effect blog recently reported, the list of maladies is grotesquely long. J&J, which prides itself on its high-minded credo of "always putting patients first," began moving its new drug into this new market as soon as Risperdal won approval in adults—even though the FDA explicitly forbid it from doing so, for the simple reason that the firm had never done a single test of the drug in children who suffered from these or any other conditions.

Though Risperdal was marketed as a less dangerous—if not more effective—alternative to older "typical" anti-psychotics, it quickly became apparent that the drug had many worrisome side effects in adults, including the rapid onset of diabetes and alarming weight gains. But despite a growing weight of evidence about the drugs, J&J only stepped up its promotion of the drug for children—aiming for more conditions and in ever-younger kids—no doubt to squeeze as many profits as possible out of this lemon before the FDA ordered them to stamp a warning on the label or withdraw it from the market altogether.

Not surprisingly, teens and kids soon started developing the same symptoms of drug-induced diabetes and weight gain that were experienced by their adult counterparts. Several also developed a bizarre condition called galactorrhea, in which milk flows spontaneously from the nipples of your breasts—girls and boys alike—a happening that is likely to drive even the most balanced teen around the bend. What may be even more bizarre, when doctors alerted J&J sales reps to this side effect, sales reps relayed the warning to their managers, who advised the sales reps to tell the doctors (in a frankly illegal reversal of medical protocol) that rather than take the kids off Risperdal, they could be treated with yet another drug.

The Massachusetts case is the third of about 10 state lawsuits in which jurors will be asked to pass judgment on whether J&J's Risperdal promotional practices constitute medical fraud. Class-action suits by patients (or parents) claiming injury are also in the works. The Obama administration has shown some guts in not simply allowing the giant drug makers to settle such lawsuits for giant fees ($2 billion is not unusual, however ho-hum to pharma) but in holding individual company executives personally liable for the criminal activity.

In fact this code of misconduct is what we have come to expect from the pharmaceutical industry: Always put profits first, break the law now, pay the fine years later. Given the high-risk nature of drug development—a novel compound costs close to $1 billion and a decade to get to market—Big Pharma has tried all manner of dark arts to increase its odds. Criminal activity, once largely limited to the sales divisions, has overtaken the entire endeavor. Clinical trials that produce negative data—including health risks—are hidden from the FDA. Early signals of serious side effects are covered up, as are promised follow-up studies upon which approval is conditioned. Like other industries, pharma and its lobbyists have regulators and Congress by the balls.

But it's the corruption of the medical profession by the pharmaceutical industry that has proved most insidious, and nothing illustrates the perilous consequences better than J&J's illegal marketing of Risperdal to kids. Making 100,000 sales calls on psychiatrists and pediatricians, the company lined the pockets of willing MDs employing familiar pharma ploys, from the small-change items like lavishing free samples, free lunches and—this may be a first—even free colorful plastic Lego blocks printed with the word RISPERDAL for children to play with in the waiting room, to the big-ticket items such as "educational" meetings at fancy resorts and "advisory board" soirees at the Four Seasons. The company even paid certain leading specialists hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to conduct J&J-designed trials and sign their name to J&J-written studies published in the top medical journals—providing a "scientific" spin to the promotional materials. In this amorphous manner, a professional consensus emerged that the atypical anti-psychotics were effective in very young children for attacks of rage, poor impulse control, defiant and oppositional behavior—the transient, irrational, sometimes frightening "acting out" that sends overworked adults around the bend.

By means of this closed circle or deceit and kickbacks, J&J beat out the competition to grab 50 percent of the pediatric market for anti-psychotics. And although many other psychiatrists and pediatricians were arguing that anti-psychotics should never be given to children under 10 in the first place, the white wall of silence in the medical profession generally prevents doctors from becoming whistleblowers unless prodded by investigative news reporting.

Everybody was profiting, it seemed, except for the kids.

Consider Kyle Warren, who as an 18-month-old Louisiana toddler began taking Risperdal prescribed by a pediatrician on the J&J payroll (plastic RISPERDAL Legos and all). Kyle suffered from frequent temper tantrums, and his mother, Brandy Warren, then 22, was a new mother on Medicaid and, as she told the New York Times, "at my wit's end." But like any good mother, Brandy kept on searching for the right diagnosis and the right treatment, going from doctor to doctor and amassing a contradictory set of assessments, such as autism, psychosis, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. By the time he was age three, Kyle's daily pill regimen resembled that of someone very old or very sick, including Risperdal, the antidepressant Prozac, uppers for ADHD and downers for insomnia. He was sedated, he drooled, and he was ballooning with fat from the side effects of the Risperdal—but, look Ma, no more temper tantrums!

“All I had was a medicated little boy,” Brandy Warren told the Times. “I didn’t have my son. It’s like, you’d look into his eyes and you would just see just blankness.” Brandy got word of a high-quality program affiliated with Tulane University for low-income families with children with mental health problems. Over the next two years, Kyle was gradually weaned off the dangerous cocktail of drugs and given an ongoing exhaustive evaluation. His current diagnosis—attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder—is very common among boys his age; he takes a single long-acting stimulant to control it. At the time of the Times profile, in fall 2010, he was in his fourth week of first record and earning As in his first tests. There can be little doubt that the original course of treatment was a terrible medical error.

Says Brandy Warren: “Once he came off the medication, he was Kyle again. He’s an intelligent person. He’s loud. He’s funny. He’s smart. He’s bouncy. I mean, there’s never a dull moment. He has a few little behavior issues. But he’s like any other normal 6-year-old.” Still, she worries that the many months he spent taking those drugs may have damaged his development. Will Kyle be more susceptible to mental health problems and addiction as he ages? No one knows. "I will never, ever let my children be put on these drugs again,” she told the Times, choking back tears. “I didn’t realize what I was doing.”

Surely some adults and even some children with behavioral problems have been helped by Risperdal, though rounds of scientific studies suggest that the wonder drug is no more beneficial to patients than less hazardous anti-psychotics that came before it. Ultimately, its Johnson & Johnson (and its billionaire competitors) who may have real behavioral problems to deal with. According to a 2009 report by the FDA, an estimated 500,000 adolescents and children are on anti-psychotics, despite the fact that schizophrenia—the original condition that was supposed to be treated by these drugs—typically manifests only in the late teens. Despite all the bad publicity and billions of fines levied against the company, J&J continues to make a nifty profit off of Risperdal. Even in 2010, when the company's patent on the drug had expired, sales continued to climb. In fact, over the past decade "atypical anti-psychotics" have emerged as one of the drug industry's most lucrative products, averaging about $15 billion in annual sales. But is America really experiencing an"epidemic" of psychosis among preschoolers? Far likelier that we are witnessing an epidemic of unethical and illegal collusion between Big Pharma and Big Medicine—a derangement of values, if you will. The pharmaceutical industry's craving for endless profits has progressed so far that executives feel free to prey on the most vulnerable members of our society.

http://www.thefix.com/content/jj-sued-illegal-promotion-drugs-kids

[SwordoftheVistula]

Yeah it's BS. They take normal kids, or kids who just need discipline, and drug them up. The drugs mess them up, so in time they actually develop a real mental illness because of the drugs.

Any kid that's not perfectly average gets diagnosed with a 'mental disorder'

Above average energy: 'ADD/ADHD'. Needs drugs.
Below average energy: 'Depressed'. Needs drugs.
Sometimes above normal energy, below normal energy: 'bipolar'. Needs drugs.
Above average sociability: 'ADHD'. Needs drugs.
Below average sociability: 'Asbergers syndrom'. Needs drugs.
Has unusual habits: 'Austistic'. Needs drugs.

[Fortis in Arduis]

The disorders are real, social impairments are real, autistic sensory overload and 'meltdown' are real, but the medications are all poisons.

School is rubbish for most children anyway. If I were at school again today, I'd want a really big list of drugs just to cope with the boredom, the PC and lack of educational standards.

I have a friend who is more autistic than I and she has never needed drugs to make her 'normal'. She went to a nice specialist school instead.

I quite like the Scientologists' line about psychiatry being a scam, but I'm afraid that the disorders do seem to be real, and on a spectrum of severity.

Better to diagnose and treat (but not with drugs) than ignore and create misery. :shrug:

[Osweo]

If a kid is REALLY mental, it's gunna get picked up on, and THEN the head doctors might be worth a try (though still a bit of a gamble to my mind).

If a kid is just a bit rowdy/surly/naughty/twatlike, then it'll probably grow out of it, or just needs a smacked arse. Calling in a 'professional' is almost guaranteeing some 'condition' will be found, so fuck that. Our millions of ancestors got by somehow, and so can we, if we try to live a natural lifestyle.

[Don]

I
If a kid is just a bit rowdy/surly/naughty/twatlike, then it'll probably grow out of it, or just needs a smacked arse. Our millions of ancestors got by somehow, and so can we, if we try to live a natural lifestyle.

The prevalence of mental disorders in our ancestors times was infimal compared to our deranged world.

Even the healthy, preventive and effective natural act of smacking an ass (or the cheek) of a bad behaving child, is banned in it.

The context is quite different and the natural lifestyle is not an option for most of modern humans of western societies.

[Don]

but the medications are all poisons.


I don't waste my time reacting to infantile comments like this, but I will do an exception and encourage you to use these same words and discuss with -for example- some of the millions of persons that thanks to these "poisons" are still alive or can enjoy the lives of their beloved ones. I would like to remind that major depression is related with an "event" called suicide (>2/10).

I think Panacea has not been discovered still, so adverse effects exist,(you know, is not a perfect world, like humans) but these -in 2011- are not comparable to the ones of the medications 50 years ago or to these that appear in the fantasies of unknowers.

Sincerely I have another idea of "Poison".

[Fortis in Arduis]

Don, Valium, Respiradal and Ritalin are poisons, even if they save lives.

I have self-medicated myself up to the eyeballs over the years, but I'm glad that I was never prescribed these medications for my condition, just to keep me sat in a chair.

This is what happens to some children with my diagnoses.

[research_centre]

Well, the ADHD thing is becaue many children aren't suited for academics. The parents get desperate, and they make up some bull definition so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

Keep in mind, also, that psychiatrists are trying to justify their existence and keep earning money.

I hold a science degree and I could not agree more.

[Ibericus]

Psychiarty is today a very profitable business. A good small slap in the right place, right time, in a kid sometimes makes more results.

[Sunray]

Looking at this thread, and in general, it is obvious that some kids behave in ways which need changing but also that a great many are misdiagnosed.

However; my most striking memory from school is sitting in double chemistry on a Wednesday afternoon in acute and physical pain from the boredom.

There are no easy answers as children are all different, schools are all different as are parents and even shrinks. All are to blame in some instances. On the other hand some factors make them all skew wrong more often. Diversity (is our strength, repeat ten times) decreases understanding and trust between children, schools, shrinks and parents. Furthermore it makes it less likely that any will match each other and produce the ideal result: well-adjusted and educated young adults. A diverse school is as clearly inefficient and guaranteed to mostly mismatch as a dog school which trains guide dogs, guard dogs and all others in the same class.

[Boudica]

I just looked back at this thread, oops. Of course there is a difference between a child actually having some type of disorder and being misdiagnosed. I think that both happen. However I know this child, and I know that this diagnosis was bullshit, lol. In his case it is all due to a lack of discipline and structure. If a child knows that he/she can do whatever they want of course they will go ahead and do so. The point is that this woman diagnosed him with this after only having an hour session with him, without giving him an ADHD test of some sort, and without knowing about his lack of good parenting. In my opinion children, (and adults) these days are diagnosed with mental illnesses too freely. I am not trying to say that mental illnesses don't exist, that would be ignorant to say, especially since I suffer from one. It just seems as if a psychiatrist will deem some one as being depressed if they come in and talk about feeling like shit lately because they lost their job and girlfriend, when being sad after what I gave as an example is completely normal..