Was Venice a Balkanized civilization? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Faklon

09-09-2020, 06:35 PM

Venice was shit.

Venice was swag if you were really Venetian.

Saint Mark's Basilica,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Venezia_Basilica_di_San_Marco_Fassade_2.jpg/1200px-Venezia_Basilica_di_San_Marco_Fassade_2.jpg

Or Palazzo Loredan

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5b3e20c2b1059889dc69514e/1530891818704-MYZC4RV8VOT5KZAZON7T/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kJK4Mm1kch8SFO9ZNkN1NT97gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z5QHyNOqBUUEtDDsRWrJLTmFk_H6M1tkD9NpL7mXac0oV SXdFfjxR5AjcLwGSebOiGBsFzzcw3xKxvyC_6CFFG_/Palazzo+Loredan.jpg

are masterpieces of Byzantine architecture

renaissance12

09-09-2020, 06:38 PM

By introducing them the mandolin and building fortresses for the nobility?

Venice Is The Craddle Of Classical Music and The Place Where Violin and Viola and Piano Were Born....

Jana

09-09-2020, 06:38 PM

Yeah, city is very special given you visit when it doesn't stink. What I don't like about Venice was that it was trading Empire before all, with strong Jewish element - I don't have lot of respect for Traders.
Here is very nice Byzantine architectural remnant from Croatia for you:

https://www.google.com/search?q=eufrazijeva+bazilika&tbm=isch&chips=q:eufrazijeva+bazilika,g_1:euphrasian+basili ca:lyHETc8-U0o%3D&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju76i33NzrAhVRr6QKHR80CAIQ4lYoAXoECAEQF Q&biw=1903&bih=1005

renaissance12

09-09-2020, 06:43 PM

Cristiano viejo

09-09-2020, 10:59 PM

Venice was shit.

And still is.

MoroLP

09-10-2020, 08:52 AM

What I don't like about Venice was that it was trading Empire before all, with strong Jewish element...

Weren't the Venetian Jews forcibly segregated and surveilled? The Ghetto was one of the if not the poorest part of the city.

Vid Flumina

09-10-2020, 09:33 AM

Venice was swag if you were really Venetian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbQ5PBGpa6g

Bosniensis

09-10-2020, 09:43 AM

Justinian brought Venice under Roman rule after west was conquered by Germanics, but never the less it was destroyed later, later they
infested Roman Empire especially Constantinople and trade routes which contributed to collapse of orthodox world.

Venice is a Frankish trade city state, it can be easily checked by it's doges:

Marcello Tegalliano (717–726)
Orso Ipato (726–737) nominated by the popular assembly opposed to the iconoclast policies of the Byzantine Emperor; murdered by rebels during a civil conflict
Brief Interregnum (737–742) of duke magistrate equivalents (Latin: magister militum)[1]

Dominicus Leo Abrogatis (737)
Felice Cornicola (738)
Teodato Ipato (739)
Gioviano Cepanico Ipato (740)
Giovanni Fabriciaco (741)
Teodato Ipato (742–755) deposed, blinded, and exiled
Galla Gaulo (755–756) deposed, blinded, and exiled
Domenico Monegario (756–764) deposed, blinded, and exiled
Maurizio Galbaio (764–787)
Giovanni Galbaio (787–804) fled to Mantua in 803 with family, where they all probably died
9th century
Obelerio Antenoreo (804–811) exiled, attempted to return to power, killed & head displayed in the market
Agnello Participazio (811–827)
Giustiniano Participazio (827–829)
Giovanni I Participazio (829–837) arrested, and tonsured (head shaved like monk)
Pietro Tradonico (837–864) assassinated, although in this case his successor arrested and executed the assassins
Orso I Participazio (864–881)
Giovanni II Participazio (881–887) resigned due to poor health
Pietro I Candiano (887–888) killed in open battle while invading the Narentines
Pietro Tribuno (888–912)

etc..

Generally speaking Romans lost all possesions in Italy 1054 when the last city of Bari was lost.

If I remember Rome was lost in 7th century, Ravenna sometimes later or before...

Venice was lost in 7th century.

Antudo

09-10-2020, 10:02 AM

And still is.

if you think that Venice is shit then i don't know how you can define any city in Spain.

renaissance12

09-10-2020, 10:23 AM

if you think that Venice is shit then i don't know how you can define any city in Spain.

Arabic.......700 Years Of Arabic Culture...

Cristiano viejo

09-10-2020, 03:42 PM

if you think that Venice is shit then i don't know how you can define any city in Spain.
Imagine then. At least we don't walk on water and our cities don't inundate.

Arabic.......700 Years Of Arabic Culture...

You 300 and Venice Looking like a minaret city.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 04:40 PM

If we consider dalmatia as a part of Balkans then Its more possibly the exactly other way around, Its a part of Balkans which was "italized", as Venetians took a slavic speaking area from the Ottomans, turning it to a western society and culture. The parts of yugoslavia around nis, fyrom and kosovo which left the Ottoman empire later than anyone else, have always had the biggest illiteracy and poverty rate in Yugoslavia, followed by central Serbia. On the contrary, only Austrian ruled north Serbia and Croatia had an equal or higher culture than Dalmatia

In Greece* things were a little better, as the areas that got liberated after the revolution do not have a lower education or gdp than Ionian islands, Crete or Cyclades (parts with longer Venetian domination). But sadly in parts which were occupied by ottomans prior to 1400 and got liberated after 1850 (basically anything north of Lamia), illiteracy and poverty is higher, meawhnile these parts have little to show in terms of architecture, literature etc, meanwhile the only parts with interesting culture and architecture are again those with long venetian dominion, like Preveza and parga. Exception might be Macedonia, which in spite of longer Ottoman dominion it is more developed than a couple of regions south of it

*if we consider Greece as part of Balkans, as most of sources today see it as either non-balkan as a whole, or as balkan only in particular portions (thessaly, epirus or further north, like Britannica)

Tauromachos

09-10-2020, 04:53 PM

No Venice isn't Balkanian in any regard

Geographically its not far off from the Balkans thats for sure but Balkan just doesn't fit as a label for Venice

Venice is as much Balkan as Sicily is Middle Eastern or even less

Faklon

09-10-2020, 05:23 PM

And still is.

Venetian influence is the European influence in Spain, otherwise :

https://www.go4travelblog.com/app/uploads/2018/07/Mezquita-in-Cordoba-e1531539559284.png

If we consider dalmatia as a part of Balkans then Its more possibly the exactly other way around, Its a part of Balkans which was "italized", as Venetians took a slavic speaking area from the Ottomans, turning it to a western society and culture. The parts of yugoslavia around nis, fyrom and kosovo which left the Ottoman empire later than anyone else, have always had the biggest illiteracy and poverty rate in Yugoslavia, followed by central Serbia. On the contrary, only Austrian ruled north Serbia and Croatia had an equal or higher culture than Dalmatia

In Greece* things were a little better, as the areas that got liberated after the revolution do not have a lower education or gdp than Ionian islands, Crete or Cyclades (parts with longer Venetian domination). But sadly in parts which were occupied by ottomans prior to 1400 and got liberated after 1850 (basically anything north of Lamia), illiteracy and poverty is higher, meawhnile these parts have little to show in terms of architecture, literature etc, meanwhile the only parts with interesting culture and architecture are again those with long venetian dominion, like Preveza and parga. Exception might be Macedonia, which in spite of longer Ottoman dominion it is more developed than a couple of regions south of it

*if we consider Greece as part of Balkans, as most of sources today see it as either non-balkan as a whole, or as balkan only in particular portions (thessaly, epirus or further north, like Britannica)

Ionian islanders are mostly uninspiring fishermen without hero statues. The only way they have slightly higher GDP than Thessaly is because they are owned by 2 bar owners whereas mainland Greece is owned by 1000000 shepherds.

The point of the thread is not to degrade Venice but how medieval Venice is considered by self-hating Balkan larpers as something distinctly Western (the right term imo is Romanesque). What is understood nowadays as Venice evolved with the Renaissance and the industrialization of Northern Italy, the places in the Balkans/Eastern Mediterranean which Venice ruled in the medieval lack these influences.

Tauromachos

09-10-2020, 05:26 PM

Duplicate

Please delete!

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 05:53 PM

Venetian influence is the European influence in Spain, otherwise :

https://www.go4travelblog.com/app/uploads/2018/07/Mezquita-in-Cordoba-e1531539559284.png

Ionian islanders are mostly uninspiring fishermen without hero statues. The only way they have slightly higher GDP than Thessaly is because they are owned by 2 bar owners whereas mainland Greece is owned by 1000000 shepherds.

The point of the thread is not to degrade Venice but how medieval Venice is considered by self-hating Balkan larpers as something distinctly Western (the right term imo is Romanesque). What is understood nowadays as Venice evolved with the Renaissance and the industrialization of Northern Italy, the places in the Balkans/Eastern Mediterranean which Venice ruled in the medieval lack these influences.

Well, if that makes you feel better, yes Ionian islanders are uninspiring fishermen :D

But i think there are some things you have confused: the middle ages end in 14th century. Venice rules ionian islands until 18th century, and along with the rest of venetian colonies (Crete, cyclades and many cities of the peloponese, for some period in 1688 all of peloponnese) it becomes the first place in Greece to get affected by rennaisance and later the first which was affected by the enlightenment.

For that reason as we know since primary school the vast majotity of artists, scientists and aithors and all of architectural activity prior to 1800 come from the ionian islands, meanwhile the center shifts in southern mainland after the revolution, but regions which got liberated after 1850 and had been previously ruled by ottomans since 1400 have little or nothing to present in terms of culture, literature and architecture. By this logic ionian islands (and later southern mainland) was a distinct west in the Balkans 2 centuries ago. We all know el greco or dionisios solomos. Who knows an average karagiannis or gikas from ropoto trikalon?

Now if by the places in Balkans ruled by Venetians during the middle ages you mean north Albania, then you would be right, as only Albania was ruled by venetians only during the middle ages

Its not mainland Greece as a whole which is ruled by 100000 sepherds, its specific regions, the part that connects epirus with thessaly (not even thessaly as a whole). Shepherds exist in all Greek regions (ionian islands included), but shepherds as local lords dominate only west thessaly and eastern epirus:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nikolaos_Karanikolas/publication/237051910/figure/fig5/AS:299338292056066@1448379218098/Percentage-of-illiteracy-in-Greece.png

If thessalians were not so illiterate and non-enlightened they would also be as clever as ionian islanders to open a couple of bars and increase their gdp.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 06:15 PM

snip

The only usefulness of Ionian islands was to serve an outpost for different empires, the notable people (Solomos, Giovanni Antonio Capodistria...) weren't native Ionian islanders who were mostly uneducated fishermen.

Meanwhile, the monasteries of Meteora and Mount Athos would save ancient manuscripts and paint icons of ancient Greek and Roman philosophers.

Ancient Greek philosophers in an Orthodox monastery (https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/09/ancient-greek-philosophers-in-orthodox.html)

Byzantine frescoes of ancient philosophers (https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/03/byzantine-frescoes-of-ancient.html)

Where true Romanesque culture survived was the merchantile cities of the East (Constantinople, Smyrna...), altered by newcoming Ottoman (Turkiranoarabic) elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuSGgz57Co&t=455s&ab_channel=pwnthemonkeys

Ionian islanders will struggle to please their Skanderbeg overlords.

Crete as a more influential area was better in standing their ground and producing themselves Venetian lords like Kallergi (descendant of Phokas).

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 06:26 PM

The only usefulness of Ionian islands was to serve an outpost for different empires, the notable people (Solomos, Giovanni Antonio Capodistria...) weren't native Ionian islanders who were mostly uneducated fishermen.

Meanwhile, the monasteries of Meteora and Mouth Athos would save ancient manuscripts and paint icons of ancient Greek and Roman philosophers.

Ancient Greek philosophers in an Orthodox monastery (https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/09/ancient-greek-philosophers-in-orthodox.html)

Byzantine frescoes of ancient philosophers (https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2011/03/byzantine-frescoes-of-ancient.html)

Where true Romanesque culture survived was the merchantile cities of the East (Constantinople, Smyrna...), altered by newcoming Ottoman (Turkiranoarabic) elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxuSGgz57Co&t=455s&ab_channel=pwnthemonkeys

Ionian islanders will struggle to please their Skanderbeg overlords.

Crete as a more influential area was better in standing their ground and producing themselves Venetian lords like Kallergi (descendant of Phokas).

By your logic there are no native ionian islanders at all, as all of us had ancestors from other parts of Greece (or italy in many cases). This doesnt change the fact that these people, when they had to live in Greece, the only part they could live and create was the ionian islands, as it was the one of the few parts which back then was not dominated by ottomans. or the fact that they are our ancestors, and we are their descendants, regardless from if they came from "somewhere else"

Monasteries in meteora did not offer any important scientist or scholar, nor there is anything special about their architecture. They could depict voyager 2 as well, that wouldnt make them comparable to nasa.

Indeed Crete was more fluent than Ionian islands before 17th century, and that has to do with the emphasis that venetians put on Crete back then. After Crete (sadly) fell to the ottomans many cretan nobles emigrated in the ionian islands, making up a good percentage of our ancestors, just like a good portion of surnames in achaea, coastal aetolia and messinia is from the ionian islands today

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 06:29 PM

But since as i can see the issue makes you angry, i can do you the favor to not irritate you anymore and say "yes to all" if you want :D

Varda

09-10-2020, 06:35 PM

Faklon

09-10-2020, 06:38 PM

By your logic there are no native ionian islanders at all, as all of us had ancestors from other parts of Greece (or italy in many cases). This doesnt change the fact that these people, when they had to live in Greece, the only part they could live and create was the ionian islands, as it was the one of the few parts which back then was not dominated by ottomans. or the fact that they are our ancestors, and we are their descendants, regardless from if they came from "somewhere else"

Monasteries in meteora did not offer any important scientist or scholar, nor there is anything special about their architecture. They could depict voyager 2 as well, that wouldnt make them comparable to nasa.

Indeed Crete was more fluent than Ionian islands before 17th century, and that has to do with the emphasis that venetians put on Crete back then. After Crete (sadly) fell to the ottomans many cretan nobles emigrated in the ionian islands, making up a good percentage of our ancestors, just like a good portion of surnames in achaea, coastal aetolia and messinia is from the ionian islands today

Monks from Meteora, Agrafa, Athos would educated the people and prepare the ground for the revolution.

Crete wasn't influential because of Venetians but because it has always been an influential mercantile and alpha place that managed to make it into Venetian nobility.

Ionian islander larpers are also portayed in modern Greek folklore with Sior Dionisis

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EWcm4LVbEQc/WpxW4KmUCGI/AAAAAAAAH4c/_ZVCN3hHswo8_eHQMVRWvHbkbRoIGpDVQCLcBGAs/s1600/sior-dionisios.jpg

A guy trying too hard to speak with an Italian accent and showcase his civilization but he is nevertheless a weak hypocrite.

On the other hand you have Barba-Giorgos,

https://mikros-romios.gr/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/mparbagiorgos31.jpg

A honest shepherd from mainland Greece who always saves other characters from the Turks.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 06:43 PM

Monks from Meteora, Agrafa, Athos would educated the people and prepare the ground for the revolution.

Crete wasn't influential because of Venetians but because it has always been an influential mercantile and alpha place that managed to make it into Venetian nobility.

Ionian islander larpers are also portayed in modern Greek folklore with Sior Dionisis

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EWcm4LVbEQc/WpxW4KmUCGI/AAAAAAAAH4c/_ZVCN3hHswo8_eHQMVRWvHbkbRoIGpDVQCLcBGAs/s1600/sior-dionisios.jpg

A guy trying too hard to speak with an Italian accent and showcase his civilization but he is nevertheless a weak hypocrite.

On the other hand you have Barba-Giorgos,

https://mikros-romios.gr/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/mparbagiorgos31.jpg

A honest shepherd from mainland Greece who always saves other characters from the Turks.

Not sure whats funny: karagiozis or the level of your arguments :D

Varda

09-10-2020, 06:46 PM

My two ancestors served in Venetian army. One died in 1693 in the battle against Ottomans, and his son died in 1770 by natural death. Second one who died in 1770 had a rank of lieutenant (il tenente in Italian).

In the time of Venetian rule on Dalmatia Catholic church was very agressive towards the Orthodoxes.

Here is what Venetians did to Serbian Orthodox priest Petar Jagodić Kuridža https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Kurid%C5%BEa%27s_Rebellion

Jana

09-10-2020, 06:46 PM

double

Jana

09-10-2020, 06:47 PM

@Brennux, Dalmatian cities have/had higher culture than anything you can find in Panonnia. It's incomparable.
These ancient Roman cities/some founded by ancient Greeks (except Šibenik which was founded by Croatian King), later under Byzantine influence, later Venetian - those stone cities are unlike anything in central Europe. They have deep urban traditions, fascinating legal tradition and architecture, splendid at times - mastery of both local Dalmatian and Venetian artists.
They had renaissance first after Italy. However Dubrovnik/Ragusa which remained free of Venetians was most shinny star. It's political system, culture, quality of life - it absolished slavery long before USA - was world class.

However Habsburg Empire and Kingdom of Hungary before Ottoman defeat were above Venetian Republic.
For my people they were much better and they they developed local areas much more than Venice which simply used it as colony.
As states I rate them above Venice. But they didn't have cities that can compare to Dalmatian ones, in my opinion.

However villages in Austrian/Hungarian dominated parts of Croatia and general infrastructure/education were miles ahead of those in Venetian held parts.
Apart from Dalmatian coastal cities and few Island towns Dalmatia was underdeveloped backwater not far from African level.

North Croatia didn't have such shiny cities but overall it was significantly ahead, it was Europe compared to Venetian held Dalmatia.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 06:47 PM

Not sure whats funny: karagiozis or the level of your arguments :D

Go fish some tsipoura and farm some wine for your nobility.

Karagkiozis is a very honest portayal of modern Greek sociopolitics.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 06:50 PM

My two ancestors served in Venetian army. One died in 1693 in the battle against Ottomans, and his son died in 1770 by natural death. Second one who died in 1770 had a rank of lieutenant (il tenente in Italian).

I also have a Cretan-Venetian ancestor, who left the island to the ionian islands after the fall of Crete to the Ottomans in 1669. Judging by his surname he very likely was italian

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 06:52 PM

@Brennux, Dalmatian cities have/had higher culture than anything you can find in Panonnia. It's incomparable.
These ancient Roman cities/some founded by ancient Greeks (except Šibenik which was founded by Croatian King), later under Byzantine influence, later Venetian - those stone cities are unlike anything in central Europe. They have deep urban traditions, fascinating legal tradition and architecture, splendid at times - mastery of both local Dalmatian and Venetian artists.
They had renaissance first after Italy. However Dubrovnik/Ragusa which remained free of Venetians was most shinny star. It's political system, culture, quality of life - it absolished slavery long before USA - was world class.

However Habsburg Empire and Kingdom of Hungary before Ottoman defeat were above Venetian Republic.
For my people they were much better and they they developed local areas much more than Venice which simply used it as colony.
As states I rate them above Venice. But they didn't have cities that can compare to Dalmatian ones, in my opinion.

However villages in Austrian/Hungarian dominated parts of Croatia and general infrastructure/education were miles ahead of Venice.
Apart from Dalmatian coastal cities and few Island towns Dalmatia was underdeveloped backwater not far from African level.

North Croatia didn't have such shiny cities but overall it was significantly ahead, it was Europe compared to Venetian held Dalmatia.

Calm your tetas girl, Dalmatia was obviously better than northern croatia from many aspects

Varda

09-10-2020, 06:53 PM

In the time of Venetian rule on Dalmatia Catholic church was very agressive towards the Orthodoxes.

Here is what Venetians did to Serbian Orthodox priest Petar Jagodić Kuridža https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Kurid%C5%BEa%27s_Rebellion

Simeon Končarević, another Serbian Orthodox leader from Dalmatia who was under attack of Venetian authorities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Končarević#Exile

Jana

09-10-2020, 06:56 PM

Calm your tetas girl, Dalmatia was obviously better than northern croatia from many aspects

It wasn't. Only cities were, were elite was not even Croatian. Average Dalmatian peasant was poor African compared to north Croatian peasant.
Also after Croatia lost political control of Dalmatia our nobility all went north - despite all major nobles have roots from Dalmatia.

Northern Croatia was ruled by Croatian nobility, at least until Habsburgs destroyed them during Magnate Conspiracy, Dalmatia was ruled by foreigners or Italianised locals.
It was completely deCroatised until Napoleon quashed Venice.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 06:57 PM

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 06:59 PM

Orthodox Churches with Venetian originated Romanesque/rennaisance influence:

Peloponnesehttp://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/05/85/81/10_big.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Eglise_Agios_Nikolaos_%C3%A0_Monemvasia.jpg

Crete
https://el.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AE_%CE%91%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B1% CE%B4%CE%AF%CE%BF%CF%85#/media/%CE%91%CF%81%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BF%3AArkadi_Mona stery_Church.jpg
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQFJTGXDVy7pOtwaHe68V6fuheoQof BBxsiRQ&usqp=CAU

Jana

09-10-2020, 06:59 PM

Check how he discriminates the Slavs:

Like Slavs are always meant to be peasants.

Ionian islanders are called crazy in Greece and they are portayed as larpers.

Well I disagree with that since Croats like Magyars or Poles etc adopted western feudal system directly from Franks.
Medieval Croatia was not different than any other medieval western Christian Kingdom, and that was before Venice.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 07:00 PM

It wasn't. Only cities were, were elite was not even Croatian. Average Dalmatian peasant was poor African compared to north Croatian peasant.
Also after Croatia lost political control of Dalmatia our nobility all went north - despite all major nobles have roots from Dalmatia.

Northern Croatia was ruled by Croatian nobility, at least until Habsburgs destroyed them during Magnate Conspiracy, Dalmatia was ruled by foreigners or Italianised locals.
It was completely deCroatised until Napoleon quashed Venice.

Does that mean i was right earlier saying that you had a higher illiteracy compared to northern croatia?

Renekton

09-10-2020, 07:03 PM

Sub

Varda

09-10-2020, 07:04 PM

I also have a Cretan-Venetian ancestor, who left the island to the ionian islands after the fall of Crete to the Ottomans in 1669. Judging by his surname he very likely was italian

My ancestors who served in Venetian army are from Dalmatian hinterland.
Venetians ruled by part of Dalmatian hinterland from were my ancestors are from 1688 to the 1797.
In coastal Dalmatia they were present much longer, for example Zadar was under the Venetian rule 544 years (1202-1358, 1409-1797) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zadar#History

Jana

09-10-2020, 07:06 PM

Does that mean i was right earlier saying that you had a higher illiteracy compared to northern croatia?

https://i.imgur.com/X9oJsOU.png

Renekton

09-10-2020, 07:06 PM

Venice had a cultural impart in some places in Greece.

It was colonialism thank God Napoleon crush them.

Also the natives was second category citizens..

Faklon

09-10-2020, 07:08 PM

I also have a Cretan-Venetian ancestor, who left the island to the ionian islands after the fall of Crete to the Ottomans in 1669. Judging by his surname he very likely was italian

Lel, you don't.

Otherwise, mention it so I can look it up in medieval sources.

Dorian

09-10-2020, 07:09 PM

Rare footage from medieval Ionian island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTA0b93x1yY

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 07:19 PM

Venice had a cultural impart in some places in Greece.

It was colonialism thank God Napoleon crush them.

Also the natives was second category citizens..

The "natives" were devided into classes, as in all republics and empires back then. Some were second class, others belonged to higher classes

The only sure is that for at least one century (from 1700 to 1830) it was the only part of the country which experienced enlightenment. Enlightenment reached the rest of the country after 1828, and some parts never in history

Varda

09-10-2020, 07:23 PM

Calm your tetas girl, Dalmatia was obviously better than northern croatia from many aspects

Vast majority of native people of north Croatia during the Austrian rule were peasants in a feaudal relationship towards the their German and Hungarian masters (magnats).

In Dalmatia in Venetian and later Austrian coastal cities locals were free citizens, and people from hinterland were free peasants.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 07:23 PM

Rare footage from medieval Ionian island

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTA0b93x1yY

Zante high civilization

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQGE1oihCy0&ab_channel=OlgaBertaSellina

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHv19kBNnKI&ab_channel=RobbertVervuurt

Nothing to do with the Turkoids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElYEKMJLItk&ab_channel=EOEChannel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jrc7tF5s-xA&ab_channel=mihamike

Faklon

09-10-2020, 07:27 PM

The "natives" were devided into classes, as in all republics and empires back then. Some were second class, others belonged to higher classes

The only sure is that for at least one century (from 1700 to 1830) it was the only part of the country which experienced enlightenment. Enlightenment reached the rest of the country after 1828, and some parts never in history

Tell me your Venetian name so I can look it up.

I have various sources ranging from the Latin suburb of Contantinople to early modern Corsica.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 07:31 PM

Lel, you don't.

Otherwise, mention it so I can look it up in medieval sources.

Πιτσαμανος (originally Πιντζαμανος). It was my grandmas surname

Now if you dont have the intention to behave as if you are in a forum instead of your sheep herd, would you at least do me the favor to not quote me so that i will not waste time with useless notifications? Please :D

Jana

09-10-2020, 07:32 PM

Vast majority of native people of north Croatia during the Austrian rule were peasants in a feaudal relationship towards the their German and Hungarian masters (magnats).

In Dalmatia in Venetian and later Austrian coastal cities locals were free citizens, and people from hinterland were free peasants.

False. Masters in north Croatia were Croat nobles. In addition Croat nobles owned lot of land in Hungary proper. Several Magnate families from Hungary are of Croat origin.
Austrian nobility only gained hold after Magnate Conspiracy failure which I described.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnate_conspiracy

Dušan

09-10-2020, 07:35 PM

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 07:36 PM

Life of Serbs in Venetian ruled Dalmatia (Serbs have lived in Dalmatian hinterland) was very hard. This region is poor with natural resources, and famines were common in some years during that colonial rule.
In combination with Venetian politics of Catholization, some Serbs emigrated from Dalmatian hinterland to Austrian controled Pannonian plain (Banat in todays Serbia) and Galitia in todays Ukraine.
Some Dalmatian Serbs even moved to Ottoman controled Bosnia.

Were dalmatian serbs native to Dalmatia? Or the result of any more recent immigration?

Varda

09-10-2020, 07:38 PM

False. Masters in north Croatia were Croat nobles. In addition Croat nobles owned lot of land in Hungary proper. Several Magnate families from Hungary are of Croat origin.
Austrian nobility only gained hold after Magnate Conspiracy failure which I described.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnate_conspiracy

Only part of nobility were of Croatian origin, part were Germans and Hungarians. This does not change the fact that vast majority of locals were peasants in feudal relation towards the tiny nobility.
Even Croatian nobility in north Croatia most of time of Austrian rule despised local peasants and considered them for subhumans, they often used German and Hungarians language and they scoffed to kaykavian speech of local peasants.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 07:38 PM

Were dalmatian serbs native to Dalmatia? Or the result of any more recent immigration?

Mostly migration because of Ottoman invasion in 16th century.
I am by origin half Dalmatian and half Lika Serb (both regions are in todays Croatia).

Jana

09-10-2020, 07:41 PM

We have no love for Habsburgs either, that is for sure:

During the trial and after the execution, the estates of the royal families were pillaged, and their families scattered. The destruction of these powerful feudal families ensured that no similar event took place until the bourgeois era. Petar's wife (Katarina Zrinska) and two of their daughters died in convents, and his son, Ivan, died mad after a terrible imprisonment and torture as did Katarina, the very symbol of Croatia's destiny.

Only the Zrinski and Frankopan families stayed powerful because their possessions were in the unconquered, western part of Croatia. In the time of the conspiracy, they were controlling around 35% of civilian Croatia (1/3 of Croatian territory was under the emperor's direct control as the Military Frontier). After the conspiracy failed, these lands were confiscated by the emperor, who could grant them upon his discretion. Nothing better shows the situation in Croatia after the conspiracy than the fact that between 1527 - 1670 there were 13 bans (viceroys) of Croatia of Croatian origin. But between 1670 and the revolution of 1848, there would be only 2 bans of Croatian nationality. The period from 1670 to the Croatian cultural revival in the 19th century was Croatia's political dark age.

Neither did Hungarians:

The crackdown caused a number of former soldiers and other Hungarian nationals to rise up against the state in a sort of guerilla warfare. These Kuruc ("Crusaders") began launching raids on the Habsburg army stationed within Hungary. For years after the crackdown, Kuruc rebels would gather en masse to combat the Habsburgs; their forces' numbers swelled to 15,000 by the summer of 1672.

These Kuruc forces were far more successful than the conspiracy, and remained active against the Habsburgs up until 1711; they were also more successful in convincing foreign governments of their ability to succeed. Foreign aid came first from Transylvania (which was under Ottoman suzerainty) and later by the Ottoman Empire.

In order to combat the perceived threat from Hungary's Protestants against the Roman Catholics in his lands, Leopold ordered some 60,000 forced conversions in the first two years of his reprisals for the conspiracy. In addition, 800 Protestant churches were closed down. By 1675, 41 Protestant pastors would be publicly executed after having been found guilty of inciting riots and revolts.

Jana

09-10-2020, 07:43 PM

Only part of nobility were of Croatian origin, part were Germans and Hungarians. This does not change the fact that vast majority of locals were peasants in feudal relation towards the tiny nobility.
Even Croatian nobility in north Croatia most of time of Austrian rule despised local peasants and considered them for subhumans, they often used German and Hungarians language and they scoffed to kaykavian speech of local peasants.

Yes, peasants in north Croatia were serfs. Some Morlachs (both Serbs and Croats) in Dalmatian Hinterland like your ancestors were free men.
However their life was very hard, they mostly lived from looting Ottomans (Hajduci)

Ofcourse this also causes a different mentality between your free spirited southern bandits and obidient and hard working northern commoners.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 07:44 PM

Πιτσαμανος (originally Πιντζαμανος). It was my grandmas surname

Now if you dont have the intention to behave as if you are in a forum instead of your sheep herd, would you at least do me the favor to not quote me so that i will not waste time with useless notifications? Please :D

Likely not your surname since it's a known architect of the 18th century.

And the name Mano sounds Greek, if it was Italic he would be Manuel/Manuele.

Barely found in Italy,

https://www.mappadeicognomi.it/index.php?sur=pizzamano&s=Genera

Likely some Latin pronunciation of "Pittamanos" meaning mouthful/fat Manos.

Looks Cretan farmer af.

https://www.searchculture.gr/aggregator/thumbnails/edm-record/pandektis_prosopa/000085-10442_68384

Varda

09-10-2020, 07:44 PM

Were dalmatian serbs native to Dalmatia? Or the result of any more recent immigration?

Present day Dalmatian Serbs (who lived in Dalmatia until recently or still live) settled in Dalmatia mostly in 16th and 17th century from Bosnia and Herzegovina. My paternal ancestors came to Dalmatia in late 17th century from western Bosnia, but by some other ancestral lines I have ancestors in Dalmatia since 16th century.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 07:47 PM

Likely not your surname since it's a known architect of the 18th century.

And the name Mano sounds Greek, if it was Italic he would be Manuel/Manuele.

Barely found in Italy,

https://www.mappadeicognomi.it/index.php?sur=pizzamano&s=Genera

Likely some Latin pronunciation of "Pittamanos" meaning mouthful/fat Manos.

Looks Cretan farmer af.

https://www.searchculture.gr/aggregator/thumbnails/edm-record/pandektis_prosopa/000085-10442_68384

It is not my surname, it was my grandmas paternal one

Its origins is confirmed to be Cretan, and familys tradition says that it has deep Italian origins. I havent done any further research on the latter, so i cant say it for sure, but its Cretan origins are confirmed

Faklon

09-10-2020, 07:47 PM

I like how my thread opened you Balkanic brethen to discover yourselves.:thumb001:

Don't turn it into Yugoslavia tho.:wink

Jana

09-10-2020, 07:48 PM

Were dalmatian serbs native to Dalmatia? Or the result of any more recent immigration?

They came when land was conquered by Ottoman Empire, mostly from nearby Bosnia.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 07:53 PM

They came when land was conquered by Ottoman Empire, mostly from nearby Bosnia.

Was there intermarriage between them and native Croats?

Jana

09-10-2020, 07:56 PM

Was there intermarriage between them and native Croats?

Religion mostly prevented that, but I think it occured in some pockets. Varda will know this better.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 08:00 PM

Was there intermarriage between them and native Croats?

In surrounding villages of my ancestors, no.

There were no Croats, because they fled because of Ottoman invasion. Dalmatian hinterland and Lika was settled by Orthodox Serbs and Catholic tribe Bunjevci who got Croatized recently.
But we didnt mix with them.

Varda

09-10-2020, 08:02 PM

Was there intermarriage between them and native Croats?

In some areas of Dalmatia intermarriages between Orthodoxes and Catholics were relatively common, and I have seen evidences for that from 18th and 19th century. In some areas mixing was very rare.

I think about Dalmatian hinterland. Both Orthodoxes and Catholics from Dalmatian hinterlan settled there in 16th and 17th century from BiH. Pre-Ottoman population dissapeared in 1520s when Ottomans arrived (they migrated on Dalmatians islands and in Austrian lands).

Faklon

09-10-2020, 08:06 PM

It is not my surname, it was my grandmas paternal one

Its origins is confirmed to be Cretan, and familys tradition says that it has deep Italian origins. I havent done any further research on the latter, so i cant say it for sure, but its Cretan origins are confirmed

We will work and decode everything together so no bipolar inferiority/superiority complex exists among you.

Apparently Pizzamano appears in Venetian nobility in the 12th century, likely of Bohemian or German origin.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzamano

La tradizione li vuole di origine boema[1], o forse tedesca[2].

Giunti a Venezia in epoca antichissima, i Pizzamano diedero alla città alcuni tribuni[2]. Assieme ai Dandolo, questo casato fece costruire nel 1146 la chiesa di San Luca a San Marco. Tra i membri di questa nobile famiglia, si ricorda Antonio Pizzamano, vescovo di Feltre, il cui corpo, sepolto nella basilica di San Pietro di Castello, fu ritrovato dopo lungo tempo incorrotto nella carne[2].

I Pizzamano ricoprirono importanti incarichi soprattutto nelle terre dello Stato da Mar, specialmente in Dalmazia, Albania e nelle Isole del Levante. Dopo la caduta della Repubblica, ottennero il riconoscimento della propria nobiltà da parte del Governo imperiale austriaco con Sovrane Risoluzioni datate 16 novembre, 18 dicembre e 30 dicembre 1817[1].

But the name is interesting, the other meaning i could think is something like "pizza a mano" (pitta at hand like souvlaki lel).

It's not like it's your name but certainly interesting.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 08:09 PM

.

.

Do Slavs use the name Mano?

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:09 PM

In some areas of Dalmatia intermarriages between Orthodoxes and Catholics were relatively common, and I have seen evidences for that from 18th and 19th century. In some areas mixing was very rare.

I think about Dalmatian hinterland. Both Orthodoxes and Catholics from Dalmatian hinterlan settled there in 16th and 17th century from BiH. Pre-Ottoman population dissapeared in 1520s when Ottomans arrived (they migrated on Dalmatians islands and in Austrian lands).

Church sometimes prevented marriages, other times not

In south-western Greece and Cyclades there were marriages between catholic and orthodox Christians, the children of these "mixed" marriages would follow either the Orthodox Church or Catholic Church

But my impression is that Dalmatians and Serbs were both less open to intermarriage

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:11 PM

We will work and decode everything together so no bipolar inferiority/superiority complex exists among you.

Apparently Pizzamano appears in Venetian nobility in the 12th century, likely of Bohemian or German origin.

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzamano

But the name is interesting, the other meaning i could think is something like "pizza a mano" (pitta at hand like souvlaki lel).

It's not like it's your name but certainly interesting.

No worries as no superiority/inferiority complex already exists among me, i rarely even read your posts (ok when I want to have fun i always do), its rather you the one who follows me and the 90% of Greek members like an attention whore :D

Thanks for the additional info, and once again, its not my name, its my grandmas one. Therefore i likely was right about it being Venetian

Faklon

09-10-2020, 08:12 PM

No superiority/inferiority complex already exists among me, i rarely even read your posts, its rather you the one who follows me and the 90% of Greek members like an attention whore :D

Don't hit the messenger who happens to be your alpha nobility.

We may make something here.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 08:12 PM

Do Slavs use the name Mano?

As far as I know, no.
But there is name Mane.

Mane is a male name derived from the Greek name Manouel which is a variant of Ennanouel, derived from the ancient Hebrew word "immanuel" which means "God is with us".

Varda

09-10-2020, 08:13 PM

In surrounding villages of my ancestors, no.

There were no Croats, because they fled because of Ottoman invasion. Dalmatian hinterland and Lika was settled by Orthodox Serbs and Catholic tribe Bunjevci who got Croatized recently.
But we didnt mix with them.

One interesting thing.
Catholic Ivan Ante Viličić from Drniš was declared Serb, and he was leader of Serbian party in Drniš in late 19th and early 20th century.
https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/bvikgdyrk244dqs/images/44-ab88d0bbc8.jpg

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:17 PM

Don't hit the messenger who happens to be your alpha nobility.

We may make something here.

Now take your meds, you re in a forum, not in your sheep herd, duke of karagouns

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:24 PM

In surrounding villages of my ancestors, no.

There were no Croats, because they fled because of Ottoman invasion. Dalmatian hinterland and Lika was settled by Orthodox Serbs and Catholic tribe Bunjevci who got Croatized recently.
But we didnt mix with them.

Bunjevci is just another name for Croats from western BiH. They got "Croatized" at same time your and Varda's anestors got Serbified, during 19th century national revival.
Otherwise you were known as Vlachs.

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:26 PM

One interesting thing.
Catholic Ivan Ante Viličić from Drniš was declared Serb, and he was leader of Serbian party in Drniš in late 19th and early 20th century.
https://html2-f.scribdassets.com/bvikgdyrk244dqs/images/44-ab88d0bbc8.jpg

Ante Viličić was surely not Serb, lmao. At least not by origin. Maybe he married Serb woman or converted to Orthodoxy.
There are no Serbs named Ante. His surname is 100% Croatian as well ofcourse.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 08:28 PM

Bunjevci is just another name for Croats from western BiH. They got "Croatized" at same time your and Varda's anestors got Serbified, during 19th century national revival.
Otherwise you were known as Vlachs.

No, they were no Croats. Even today you have problem with Herzegovina "Croats" because they are too Balkanite for your taste. :)

Only relation between Croats from Croatia and these Bunjevci is Catholic religion. Their culture is Balkan 100%.

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:31 PM

No, they were no Croats. Even today you have problem with Herzegovina "Croats" because they are too Balkanite for your taste. :)

Only relation between Croats from Croatia and these Bunjevci is Catholic religion. Their culture is Balkan 100%.

No, they are genetically same as other southern Croats and like it or not western Bosnia is historically our land and our Kings were crowned there.
If they aren't Croats, than you aren't Serbs either. Just Vlachs.

Because historical records describe your ancestors settling in Dalmatia as orthodox Vlachs, no mention of Serbs.

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:32 PM

Also culture has nothing to do with origins, it depends on surrounding somebody lives in. Bosniaks are culturally Middle Eastern but genetically European.

Varda

09-10-2020, 08:32 PM

Ante Viličić was surely not Serb, lmao. At least not by origin. Maybe he married Serb woman or converted to Orthodoxy.
There are no Serbs named Ante. His surname is 100% Croatian as well ofcourse.

I don't know what was in his mind. But he was realy declared Serb of Catholic religion.
In 19th and first half of 20th century Catholic intelectuals in Dalmatia who were declared Serbs existed. They were most numerous in Dubrovnik and around, but also existed in Split and northern Dalmatia.
I found only one man from Dalmatia who was declared Orthodox Croat, it was Špiro Vujatović from Knin who was poet and lived in second half of 19th century.

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:34 PM

I don't know what was in his mind. But he was realy declared Serb of Catholic religion.
In 19th and first half of 20th century Catholic intelectuals in Dalmatia who were declared Serbs existed. They were most numerous in Dubrovnik and around, but also existed in Split and northern Dalmatia.
I found only one man from Dalmatia who was declared Orthodox Croat, it was Špiro Vujatović from Knin who was poet and lived in second half of 19th century.

Okay, and Lajos Kossuth was fiercest Magyar nationalist along with Sandor Pettofi, both had little to none Hungarian blood.
This is nothing strange. Napoleon wasn't French origin but Italian. Origin and identity are separate things.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 08:36 PM

No, they are genetically same as other southern Croats and like it or not western Bosnia is historically our land and our Kings were crowned there.
If they aren't Croats, than you aren't Serbs either. Just Vlachs.

Because historical records describe your ancestors settling in Dalmatia as orthodox Vlachs, no mention of Serbs.

Look at Insuperables autosomal result how Croatian are they. :)
In other thread you pull poison on "Croats" of Bosnia-Herzegovina, now you want to adopt those Balkanites.

My ancestors were Vlachs as social status in Ottoman empire, that mean shepherds with some privileges. Not simple captured peasants.

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:37 PM

My ancestors were Vlachs as social status in Ottoman empire, that mean shepherds with some privileges. Not simple captured peasants.

Yes, I know. My point was that many different names were used for same people.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:38 PM

Croats and serbs, relax, and enjoy the landscape of peloponessian cities with some venetian historical background

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/ed/74/4eed74cba07d1036fc65105339ec5fbd.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ef/aa/59/efaa595407d0e20f7c88298a6a0fc75b.jpg
https://travelphoto.gr/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Koroni-Messinia.jpg
https://previews.123rf.com/images/backyardproduction/backyardproduction1906/backyardproduction190600064/134251556-nafplio-greece-15-may-2019-narrow-streets-in-the-old-town-in-the-city-of-nafplio-in-greece.jpg

Jana

09-10-2020, 08:42 PM

Very beautiful. :)

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:43 PM

Chania, Crete. Also known as "eastern venice":

Dušan

09-10-2020, 08:51 PM

Croats and serbs, relax, and enjoy the landscape of peloponessian cities with some venetian historical background

Whole Greece is beautiful.
That country is the diamond of the Mediterranean.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 08:53 PM

Chania, Crete. Also known as "eastern venice":

Lmao, it's not named Eastern Venice but old Venice port because it served as a Venetian port.

Architecture is not different than coastal Smyrna.

https://www.lifo.gr/uploads/image/719643/32_7.jpg

There is no Gothic architecture like you can occasionally find in Venice.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:55 PM

Whole Greece is beautiful.
That country is the diamond of the Mediterranean.

And equally beautiful are both Serbia and Croatia.

Hithaeglir

09-10-2020, 08:56 PM

Was Piran part of Venice?

Varda

09-10-2020, 08:57 PM

Life of Serbs in Venetian ruled Dalmatia (Serbs have lived in Dalmatian hinterland) was very hard. This region is poor with natural resources, and famines were common in some years during that colonial rule.
In combination with Venetian politics of Catholization, some Serbs emigrated from Dalmatian hinterland to Austrian controled Pannonian plain (Banat in todays Serbia) and Galitia in todays Ukraine.
Some Dalmatian Serbs even moved to Ottoman controled Bosnia.

Yes, everything is true.
In period 1771-74 a lot Serbs from Dalmatian hinterland migrated to the Ottoman Bosnia, and Syrmia, Banat and Galicia which were under the Austria https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/02/14/seobe-dalmatinskih-srba-drugi-deo/
Early 1770s were years of starvation in Dalmatia, due to droutht.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 08:59 PM

Lmao, it's not named Eastern Venice but old Venice port because it served as a Venetian port.

Architecture is not different than coastal Smyrna.

https://www.lifo.gr/uploads/image/719643/32_7.jpg

https://www.travelstyle.gr/odiporiko-sti-venetia-tis-anatolis/?amp

As for The architecture of smyrna, it was not kazakh or arabic, you know.

It was mostly a combination of byzantine, french and italian elements, mainly brought by merchants from nearby islands (lesvos, Chios etc) who were settled there ib the past

Varda

09-10-2020, 09:01 PM

Yes, everything is true.
In period 1771-74 a lot Serbs from Dalmatian hinterland migrated to the Ottoman Bosnia, and Syrmia, Banat and Galicia which were under the Austria https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/02/14/seobe-dalmatinskih-srba-drugi-deo/
Early 1770s were years of starvation in Dalmatia, due to droutht.

I wonder who are today descendants of Dalmatian Serbs who migrated in Galicia? Poles or Ukrainians? Catholics, Uniates or Orthodoxes?

Faklon

09-10-2020, 09:06 PM

https://www.travelstyle.gr/odiporiko-sti-venetia-tis-anatolis/?amp

As for The architecture of smyrna, it was not kazakh or arabic, you know.

It was mostly a combination of byzantine, french and italian elements, mainly brought by merchants from nearby islands (lesvos, Chios etc) who were settled there ib the past

It's native Romanesque/Byzantine and there wasn't yet a concept such as Italy and France when these buildings were built.

Chios merchants is part of my origin and they weren't cucks, stick in speaking for your Ionian larper islands.

This shit in your link looks like Maghreb,

https://www.travelstyle.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/TzamiYiali.jpg

North African influence in your Cretan Venice?

Tacitus

09-10-2020, 09:10 PM

Was Piran part of Venice?

Yes (from Wiki):

From 1283 to 1797, the town became part of the Republic of Venice, where it was governed in a semi-autonoumous way, with a council of local noblemen assisting the Venetian delegate. Several enemy (e.g. from the Republic of Genoa) and pirate assaults were repelled during the late Middle Ages; a great pestilence hit the town in 1558, killing about two thirds of the population. The last decades of Venetian rule were marked by decadence, due to the competition with the nearby Austrian port town of Trieste.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 09:10 PM

It's native Romanesque/Byzantine and there wasn't yet a concept such as Italy and France when these buildings were built.

Chios merchants is part of my origin and they weren't cucks, stick in speaking for your Ionian larper islands.

Once again, you are in a forum, not in your sheep herd, and either you like it or not, anyone has the right to talk about whatever he/she wants, without your permission. I hardly even care where you actually come from, meanwhile my origins have become part of your daily thoughts as it seems, which is funny :D
For the record, my best friend in the army was from Chios

Hithaeglir

09-10-2020, 09:14 PM

Yes (from Wiki):

Ok, for quite a long time then.

Faklon

09-10-2020, 09:16 PM

Once again, you are in a forum, not in your sheep herd, and either you like it or not, anyone has the right to talk about whatever he/she wants, without your permission. I hardly even care where you actually come from, meanwhile my origins have become part of your daily thoughts as it seems, which is funny :D
For the record, my best friend in the army was from Chios

Well, I don't want my country to be humiliated in every thread here by OVD (off Venetian dilemma) of perfectly Balkanic people and degrade the parts that motivated Byron to fight for us.

Bosniensis

09-10-2020, 09:17 PM

Also culture has nothing to do with origins, it depends on surrounding somebody lives in. Bosniaks are culturally Middle Eastern but genetically European.

I wouldn't say middle eastern, rather Ottoman Anatolian.

Neither Turks nor Bosniaks see themselves identical to Arabian culture.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 09:20 PM

Well, I don't want my country to be humiliated in every thread here by OVD (off Venetian dilemma) of perfectly Balkanic people and degrade the parts that motivated Byron to fight for us.

Thats your own problem. Visit a psychologist if your complexes block your communication with others, but in a forum you are obliged to behave like a human, something rare in your life i guess

90% of Greeks dislike you here but they still tolerate you, and unlike me they dont even ignore you

Faklon

09-10-2020, 09:23 PM

Thats your own problem. Visit a psychologist if your complexes block your communication with others, but in a forum you are obliged to behave like a human, something rare in your life i guess

90% of Greeks dislike you here but tolerate you, and unlike me they dont even ignore you

https://i.imgur.com/xqDhNBF.gif

Yes, they ignore you lololol.

brennus dux gallorum

09-10-2020, 09:25 PM

https://i.imgur.com/xqDhNBF.gif

Bah, i can count at least 8 out of 10 who used the word starting from "mal" to charachterise you when i joined the forum and just asked "whats wrong with that weirdo" till i decided to ignore you

Varda

09-10-2020, 09:26 PM

Kotor in Montenegro have Venetian architecture, it was under the Venetian rule in period 1420-1797 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor

https://youtu.be/aDyGYhYj3tU

Varda

09-10-2020, 09:51 PM

Kotor in Montenegro have Venetian architecture, it was under the Venetian rule in period 1420-1797 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor

https://youtu.be/aDyGYhYj3tU

But most famous building in Kotor Cathedral of Saint Tryphon is not from Venetian time, it was built in 1166 by Catholic Serbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor_Cathedral
Kotor was very important city of medieval Serbia. Experts who managed the finances and diplomats in medieval Serbia in the time of Nemanjić dynasty were mostly from Kotor.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/emicristea/emicristea1610/emicristea161000018/65439453-kotor-montenegro-cathedral-of-saint-tryphon.jpg

Faklon

09-10-2020, 10:00 PM

But most famous building in Kotor Cathedral of Saint Tryphon is not from Venetian time, it was built in 1166 by Catholic Serbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor_Cathedral
Kotor was very important city of medieval Serbia. Experts who managed the finances and diplomats in medieval Serbia in the time of Nemanjić dynasty were mostly from Kotor.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/emicristea1610/emicristea161000018/65439453-kotor-montenegro-cathedral-of-saint-tryphon.jpg

102082

Very cool, Hagios Dimitrios (4th century AD church) in Balkan villain Greek Macedonia also didn't have the typical dome of Eastern churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagios_Demetrios

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/BG0JRT/agios-dimitrios-church-thessaloniki-macedonia-greece-europe-BG0JRT.jpg

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:07 PM

But most famous building in Kotor Cathedral of Saint Tryphon is not from Venetian time, it was built in 1166 by Catholic Serbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor_Cathedral
Kotor was very important city of medieval Serbia. Experts who managed the finances and diplomats in medieval Serbia in the time of Nemanjić dynasty were mostly from Kotor.
https://previews.123rf.com/images/emicristea/emicristea1610/emicristea161000018/65439453-kotor-montenegro-cathedral-of-saint-tryphon.jpg

No, it was built by Croats. Kotor was Croatian town in what became Montenegro only in 20th century.
Please stop trying to apporpriate Croatian culture by lies and Serbian manipulations. It's repulsive.

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:09 PM

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:11 PM

I wouldn't say middle eastern, rather Ottoman Anatolian.

Neither Turks nor Bosniaks see themselves identical to Arabian culture.

Anatolia is Asia. Middle east isn't limited to Arabia. Islam means MENA culture.

Varda

09-10-2020, 10:11 PM

No, it was built by Croats. Kotor was Croatian town in what became Montenegro only in 20th century.
Please stop trying to apporpriate Croatian culture by lies and Serbian manipulations. It's repulsive.

Fuck you Muslim leftover! Kotor was never part of Croatia. It was part of Serbia in the miidle age, learn history idiot! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor#Middle_Ages

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:14 PM

Fuck you Muslim leftover! Kotor was never part of Croatia. It was part of Serbia in the miidle age, learn history idiot monkey! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor#Middle_Ages

Population of Kotor was majority Croatian. Since always. I couldn't care lass what was it part of in medieval, it won't make it's people Serbs.
You are Orthodox, leave us Catholics in peace.

Varda

09-10-2020, 10:15 PM

Tivat was another Croatian town in Bay of Kotor. This Bay is extension of Dalmatia and had no connection with savage Orthodox/Muslim tribes in Montenegrin highlands.
It became part of Montenegro in 1945.

Your paternal granddady was a Muslim idiot!
Golden age of Kotor was when it was part of Nemanjić Serbia. Every historian know that. Venetian period is time of degradation of city in comparation with Nemanjić period.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 10:16 PM

Tivat was another Croatian town in Bay of Kotor. This Bay is extension of Dalmatia and had no connection with savage Orthodox/Muslim tribes in Montenegrin highlands.
It became part of Montenegro in 1945.

There where never any Croats in Bay of Kotor.

Did you just call us Orthodox - savage? On other thread you are calling for union of churches. What a disgusting hipocrite.

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:19 PM

There where never any Croats in Bay of Kotor.

Did you just call us Orthodox - savage? On other thread you are calling for union of churches. What a disgusting hipocrite.

They are still there today, and your wishes won't make them go away. It's our Land Montenegro took in 1945 and it's not forgotten - Kotor Bay is Dalmatia.
It's old name - Bay of Croatian Saints.

Maybe in some future war we will reclaim what is ours, and your kin can go back to the mountains where they belong.

Varda

09-10-2020, 10:20 PM

Population of Kotor was majority Croatian. Since always. I couldn't care lass what was it part of in medieval, it won't make it's people Serbs.
You are Orthodox, leave us Catholics in peace.

On the last census in 2011 Kotor had 47% Montenegrins, 23% Serbs, and only 8% Croatians.

Municipality of Kotor on the last census had 49% Montenegrins, 31% Serbs, and only 7% Croatians.

On the next census % of Serbs will be higher, and % of Montenegrins and Croatian lower, without doubt. Deal with it!

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:21 PM

On the last census in 2011 Kotor had 47% Montenegrins, 23% Serbs, and only 8% Croatians.

Municipality of Kotor on the last census had 49% Montenegrins, 31% Serbs, and only 7% Croatians.

On the next census % of Serbs will be higher and % of Montenegrins and Croatian lower, without doubt. Deal with it!

Ofcourse, Orthodox Clans since communism especially settled the coast in masses. Četnik Herceg Novi is best example hehehe.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 10:26 PM

They are still there today, and your wishes won't make them go away. It's our Land Montenegro took in 1945 and it's not forgotten - Kotor Bay is Dalmatia.
It's old name - Bay of Croatian Saints.

Maybe in some future war we will reclaim what is ours, and your kin can go back to the mountains where they belong.

Croats are just tiny minority in Bay of Kotor.
You can just fuck of from Serbian land, ustaša crazy woman.

Dušan

09-10-2020, 10:27 PM

Very cool, Hagios Dimitrios (4th century AD church) in Balkan villain Greek Macedonia also didn't have the typical dome of Eastern churches.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagios_Demetrios

It looks great, but I love the most Byzantine style domed churches.

Varda

09-10-2020, 10:28 PM

Ofcourse, Orthodox Clans since communism especially settled the coast in masses. Četnik Herceg Novi is best example hehehe.

Četnik Herceg Novi had 50% Serbs on the last census. It's for few % lower than in early 2000s, because anti-Serbian authorities brought some Montenegrins from other regions in the meantime with the goal to increase number of Montenegrins and reduce number of Serbs.
Good new! Most of Montenegrins in Herceg Novi are just formal Montenegrins, and many of them will declare themselves as Serbs on the next census. Without Milo they don't have to act Montenegrins.

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:28 PM

Catholics are just tiny minority in Bay of Kotor.
You can just fuck of from Serbian land, ustaša crazy woman.

Montenegro isn't Serbia, Psycho. And it is in NATO heheh. Learn to respect other countries soveregnity! :)))

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:30 PM

Četnik Herceg Novi had 50% Serbs on the last census. It's for few % lower than in early 2000s, because anti-Serbian authorities brought some Montenegrins from other regions in the meantime with the goal to increase number of Montenegrins and reduce number of Serbs.
Good new! Most of Montenegrins in Herceg Novi are just formal Montenegrins, and many of them will declated themselves as Serbs on the next census. Without Milo they don't have to act Montenegrins.

We know Herceg Novi is Serb stronghold in Bay of Kotor. Most of them pretty recent settlers. Hahah.
When my parents visited Montenegro locals told them to avoid Herceg Novi, and they did :o

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:34 PM

Was Piran part of Venice?

Yes.
There is even a Byzantine and Greek connection.

This started local urbanisation and by the 7th century, under Byzantine rule, Piran had become heavily fortified.
The name of the town most probably originates from the Greek "pyrrhos", which means "red", because of the reddish flysch stones commonly found in the town's area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piran

Varda

09-10-2020, 10:35 PM

We know Herceg Novi is Serb stronghold in Bay of Kotor. Most of them pretty recent settlers. Hahah.
When my parents visited Montenegro locals told them to avoid Herceg Novi, and they did :o

You know Ilija Petković former Serbian footballer from Knin, he died recently. He lived in Herceg Novi many years, part of his family is still there I think. He said Novi reminds him on Knin, from architecture to the mentality of people and their customs.
One my cousin bought an apartment in Herceg Novi about 15 years ago, for the same reasons as Ilija Petković.

Jana

09-10-2020, 10:36 PM

You know Ilija Petković former Serbian footballer from Knin, he died recently. He lived in Herceg Novi many years, part of his family is still there I think. He said Novi reminds him on Knin, from architecture to the mentality of people and their customs.
One my cousin bought an apartment in Herceg Novi about 15 years ago, for the same reasons as Ilija Petković.

They have wild reputation even among Orthodox Montenegrins.

Hithaeglir

09-10-2020, 10:44 PM

Yes.
There is even a Byzantine and Greek connection.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piran

A very weak one if any :) But I remember it looked very “Italian” compared to the rest of Slovenia. Completely random anyway, just the second picture Brennus posted from Chania, gave me an instant flashback to the cobbled streets in Piran, which lead to the castle :)

Varda

09-10-2020, 10:44 PM

They have wild reputation even among Orthodox Montenegrins.

Herceg Novi is a Serbian stronghold in Bay of Kotor, because most of local Serbs have deep origin in Trebinje and Popovo Polje (they came in 17th and 18th century). Serbs of Herceg Novi are closer to Herzegovinian than to Montenegrin regional identity.
In places of Bay of Kotor where there is more declared Montenegrins there is more people with origin from Old Montenegro.

Mingle

09-10-2020, 10:50 PM

Kotor in Montenegro have Venetian architecture, it was under the Venetian rule in period 1420-1797 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor

https://youtu.be/aDyGYhYj3tUDo you know what most Montenegrins think of Venetian rule? If they weren't ruled by Venetians, maybe it would've been Turks instead. So I guess they won't have much negative things to say about it.

Aspirin

09-10-2020, 11:21 PM

Or Palazzo Loredan

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5b3e20c2b1059889dc69514e/1530891818704-MYZC4RV8VOT5KZAZON7T/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kJK4Mm1kch8SFO9ZNkN1NT97gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLf rh8O1z5QHyNOqBUUEtDDsRWrJLTmFk_H6M1tkD9NpL7mXac0oV SXdFfjxR5AjcLwGSebOiGBsFzzcw3xKxvyC_6CFFG_/Palazzo+Loredan.jpg

are masterpieces of Byzantine architecture

This is not Byzantine architecture.

Cristiano viejo

09-10-2020, 11:22 PM

Venetian influence is the European influence

Juasss

The impact of the islamic world on the Venetian architecture

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RpaJ9gf8d9s

https://muslimheritage.com/uploads/East_Meets_West_Venice_10b.jpg

You as semi ottoman should know :thumb001:

Faklon

09-10-2020, 11:28 PM

This is not Byzantine architecture.

Good thing you noticed that.

It's Ca' Farsetti e Ca' Loredan I got from an article but felt stupid to change the picture afterwards.

https://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/06/13/91/21_big.jpg

Faklon

09-10-2020, 11:31 PM

Juasss

The impact of the islamic world on the Venetian architecture

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RpaJ9gf8d9s

https://muslimheritage.com/uploads/East_Meets_West_Venice_10b.jpg

You as semi ottoman should know :thumb001:

Inshallah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNfV1M6_6bs&ab_channel=AlFirdausEnsemble%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%82%D8% A9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%B3

Varda

09-10-2020, 11:41 PM

Yes, peasants in north Croatia were serfs. Some Morlachs (both Serbs and Croats) in Dalmatian Hinterland like your ancestors were free men.
However their life was very hard, they mostly lived from looting Ottomans (Hajduci)

Ofcourse this also causes a different mentality between your free spirited southern bandits and obidient and hard working northern commoners.

People from Dalmatian hinterland were free of taxes in Austrian time. In Venetian time they paid relatively low taxes. There was no Venetian and Austrian lords there and feudal system like in north Croatia. In Venetian time Venetians did not have contact with villagers. About taxes and other things connection between villagers and Venetian authorities were heads of villages who had tittle of kapitan. Every village had own kapitan local man, as connection between villagers and Venetian authorities.

True story.
After WW2 when communists established power they came to my native village and took away lovestock from villagers (in every village was like that). My great-grandfather exclaimed: "Ajme Franjo, ajme ljuta rano", and communist bastards hit him few times. His pro Austro-Hungarian attitude was because they were even free of taxes during the AH period, and unlike them communist bastards took away livestock and whatever they wanted.

Cristiano viejo

09-10-2020, 11:57 PM

Inshallah

Did you notice how thes Moriscos (descendants of ethnic spaniards) are lighter than you? :D
I did :D

Faklon

09-11-2020, 12:01 AM

Did you notice how thes Moriscos (descendants of ethnic spaniards) are lighter than you? :D
I did :D

The singer is English.

The rest look like a Peruvian band in Monastiraki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastiraki), familiar phenotypes to you and in some parallel universe lighter than me or whatever.

Comments are funny af

The arabian people left such beautiful culture and history behind. God bless the andalusians.

So poignant!!! Some guy who loved prophet pbuh and wrote this poetry was either expelled or killed in 17th century from Al Andalous. And here in 2019 we are hearing his poetry. May Allah bless him and his family and give him higher places in paradise ....Amin

I went to spain.. I saw the faces of people once in the past was the muslim...but their generation changed... history changed everything..
Its quite sad though

ALLAH is the best planner..

Greetings to all Moriscos from Malaysia. InshaAllah Islam will rise again from the West. Amiin.

United we stand, divided we fall. (Muslims)
❤ From Pakistan ��

May Allah forgive, preserve and bless the Moors and their descendents, wherever they are and whatever they call themselves today. May they be reconnected to their roots and identity, and find success in this world and the hereafter.

Cristiano viejo

09-11-2020, 12:09 AM

The singer is English.

The rest look like a Peruvian band in Monastiraki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastiraki), familiar phenotypes to you and in some parallel universe lighter than me or whatever.

Comments are funny af
Anda speciall y than your african Looking mother :rofl:

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 08:01 AM

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 08:09 AM

The Duchy of Naxos :D

https://www.greeka.com/photos/cyclades/naxos/night-life/hero/naxos-night-life-1280.jpg

Not very venetian looking though, in spite of the Venetian rule. Cyclades are more similar to puglia and southern half of iberia

Antudo

09-11-2020, 09:55 AM

Juasss

The impact of the islamic world on the Venetian architecture

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RpaJ9gf8d9s

https://muslimheritage.com/uploads/East_Meets_West_Venice_10b.jpg

You as semi ottoman should know :thumb001:

Dude there is nothing islamic in that building, that's just gothic style with some byzantine elements. By the way i see you are from Spain, a country filled with Islamic monuments:

https://blogs-images.forbes.com/geoffreymorrison/files/2015/10/Alhambra-by-Geoffrey-Morrison-12.jpg

https://cdn.getyourguide.com/img/tour/5acb9520f1d43.jpeg/146.jpg

https://images.placesonline.com/photos/37865_cordoba_medina_azahara.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8724/17352118516_a2e65bd152_b.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Patio_de_la_Monter%C3%ADa%2C_01.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/dd/1b/9bdd1b766cbf51a71a151bd8b77122c3.jpg

Those are some impressive examples of moorish architecture, they look very beautiful.

renaissance12

09-11-2020, 10:36 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNfV1M6_6bs&ab_channel=AlFirdausEnsemble%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%82%D8% A9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%B3

What fantastic spanish sound......Vivaldi Would Have Liked It

Blondie

09-11-2020, 10:56 AM

False. Masters in north Croatia were Croat nobles. In addition Croat nobles owned lot of land in Hungary proper. Several Magnate families from Hungary are of Croat origin.
Austrian nobility only gained hold after Magnate Conspiracy failure which I described.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnate_conspiracy

The croatian nobles were part of medieval hungarian nation concept, unlike the peasants who had hungarus identity (which means someone from Kingdom of Hungary) regardless of their ethnic origin. I don't know the croatian peasants had hungarus identity or not because Croatia was relative independent inside of Lands of the Hungarian Crown, but the croatian nobility had dual identity for sure.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 11:01 AM

True story.
After WW2 when communists established power they came to my native village and took away lovestock from villagers (in every village was like that). My great-grandfather exclaimed: "Ajme Franjo, ajme ljuta rano", and communist bastards hit him few times. His pro Austro-Hungarian attitude was because they were even free of taxes during the AH period, and unlike them communist bastards took away livestock and whatever they wanted.

He was 100% right. The austro-hungarian living standards were much better.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:04 AM

The croatian nobles were part of medieval hungarian nation concept, unlike the peasants who had hungarus identity (which means someone from Kingdom of Hungary) regardless of their ethnic origin. I don't know the croatian peasants had hungarus identity or not because Croatia was relative independent inside of Lands of the Hungarian Crown, but the croatian nobility had dual identity for sure.

Yeah, that's known. Good example is Counts Zrinski brothers, one wrote on Croatian and other on Hungarian (they knew many languages ofcourse, but it was their preference)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petar_Zrinski
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikl%C3%B3s_Zr%C3%ADnyi

Varda

09-11-2020, 11:06 AM

The croatian nobles were part of medieval hungarian nation concept, unlike the peasants who had hungarus identity (which means someone from Kingdom of Hungary) regardless of their ethnic origin. I don't know the croatian peasants had hungarus identity or not because Croatia was relative independent inside of Lands of the Hungarian Crown, but the croatian nobility had dual identity for sure.

Hungarian nobleman Ferenc Tahy was ban of Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Tahy

Reason for Croatian-Slovenian peasant revolt in 1573 was terror towards the peasants by Ferenc Tahy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian-Slovene_Peasant_Revolt

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:11 AM

Hungarian nobleman Ferenc Tahy was ban of Croatia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferenc_Tahy

Reason for Croatian-Slovenian peasant revolt in 1573 was terror towards the peasants by Ferenc Tahy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian-Slovene_Peasant_Revolt

So? Croatia was not ruled by Hungary, that is only in your Serbian dreams.
Otherwise I can show Croat nobles who ruled over Hungarian peasants in Hungary proper.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 11:23 AM

So? Croatia was not ruled by Hungary, that is only in your Serbian dreams.
Otherwise I can show Croat nobles who ruled over Hungarian peasants in Hungary proper.

Officially there was a personal union between Hungary and Croatia, in the reality the croatian ban depended on hungarian king, and sometimes hungarians didn't respect the relative croatian independence and there were periods were Croatia was just a simple province of Hungary, that's why croats did rise up in rebellion against hungarians many times, in 1848 at last time.

ioan assen

09-11-2020, 11:25 AM

Venice is an Italian city and Italy is part of Western Europe. Id go and say that Italy is the heart of Europe per se. However Venice is historically linked to Greece. Crete (especially), Rhodes, Kos and other islands... All of them have the medieval "Venice"/knights influence. Unlike the Turks, Venetians created, built and developed the islands and to this day those treasures (churches, castles, fountains, roads etc.) have remained as a reminder that southern Balkan (Southern Greece) is forever connected to Western Europe. Unfortunately those influences were not as strong on the north of Greece.

Varda

09-11-2020, 11:26 AM

So? Croatia was not ruled by Hungary, that is only in your Serbian dreams.
Otherwise I can show Croat nobles who ruled over Hungarian peasants in Hungary proper.

Death of Matija Gubac by glowing crown is a later entry, inspired by death of György Dózsa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/György_Dózsa#Downfall_and_execution
Matija Gubec died in old age by natural death.

Croatian-Slovenian peasant revolt calmed down Serbs of White Carniola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs_of_White_Carniola
Vienna sent Serbs from White Carniola, they have come and easy crushed the rebellion.

Dušan

09-11-2020, 11:26 AM

Officially there was a personal union between Hungary and Croatia, in the reality the croatian ban depended on hungarian king, and sometimes hungarians didn't respect the relative croatian independence and there were periods were Croatia was just a simple province of Hungary, that's why croats did rise up in rebellion against hungarians many times, in 1848 at last time.

Croatia was Hugarian province, as same as Dalmatia was first Venetian, then Austrian province.

Croatian larping about some statehood is just nationalistic dream and revisionism of history.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:30 AM

Croatia was Hugarian province, as same as Dalmatia was first Venetian, then Austrian province.

Croatian larping about some statehood is just nationalistic dream and revisionism of history.

No, you confused with Serbia which was erased off map and became Turkish province.
Croatia shared a Crown with Hungary, but that concept is unknown to former Turkish subject such as you are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_union_with_Hungary

even in dynastic union with Hungary, institutions of separate Croatian statehood were maintained through the Sabor (an assembly of Croatian nobles) and the ban (viceroy). In addition, the Croatian nobles retained their lands and titles

Now die of jelaousy frustrated Serv. No wonder your country is bottom of Europe in almost everything with such stupid and intellectually neglected population.

Dušan

09-11-2020, 11:33 AM

No, you confused with Serbia which was erased of map and became Turkish province.
Croatia shared a Crown with Hungary, but that concept is unknow to former Turkish subject such as you are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_in_union_with_Hungary

Now die of jelaousy frustrated Serv. No wonder your country is bottom of Europe in almost everything with such stupid and intellectually neglected population.

You never have your own state until Hitler created his little puppet-state in 1941.
Complexed peasants and servants who think they are some culture. Simple piece of shit.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 11:34 AM

Croatia was Hugarian province, as same as Dalmatia was first Venetian, then Austrian province.

Croatian larping about some statehood is just nationalistic dream and revisionism of history.

There were periods when Croatia was really a hungarian province, another time it was realtive independent, but it was austrian military zone too:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Militargrenze%2C_Wojwodowena_und_Banat.jpg

You can't say they were only this or this, the history is more difficult.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:35 AM

You never have your own state until Hitler created his little puppet-state in 1941.
Complexed peasants and servants who think they are some culture. Simple piece of shit.

Look subhuman, I couldn't care about your primitive complexes. Your kin was chased from my country like dogs, and that's why you are so frustrated.
We defeated and humiliated your Gypsy shit, and be happy we let you dogs escape alive after all you did.

Fuck off from Croatia and concentrate on your shithole Servia.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 11:36 AM

You never have your own state until Hitler created his little puppet-state in 1941.

This is not true, independent Croatia existed in 9. century.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:37 AM

There were periods when Croatia was really a hungarian province

No, there were not.

Varda

09-11-2020, 11:37 AM

You never have your own state until Hitler created his little puppet-state in 1941.
Complexed peasants and servants who think they are some culture. Simple piece of shit.

Croatian-Slovenian peasant rebellion is name created by modern historians. It was Slovenian peasant rebellion. Kaykavian peasants of NW Croatia in 1573 were not Croatians, they are croatized later. Matija Gubec was ethnic Slovenian (Slovinac/Slovenac).

Dušan

09-11-2020, 11:37 AM

There were periods when Croatia was really a hungarian province, another time it was realtive independent, but it was austrian military zone too:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Militargrenze%2C_Wojwodowena_und_Banat.jpg

You can't say they were only this or this, the history is more difficult.

Yes, Military zone was by direct rule of Vienna. Zagreb as provincial town didnt have any jurisdiction over Military zone.
Austrian emparor gave to Serbs some autonomous rights in Military zone.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:38 AM

Croatian-Slovenian peasant rebellion is name created by modern historians. It was Slovenian peasant rebellion. Kaykavian peasants of NW Croatia in 1573 were not Croatians, they are croatized later. Matija Gubec was ethnic Slovenian (Slovinac/Slovenac).

Okay, I had enough of you. I did not report your sock account after you returned and gave you chance but enought is enough.
I am writing to Loki to remove you from TA.

Varda

09-11-2020, 11:40 AM

Okay, I had enough of you. I did not report your sock account after you returned and gave you chance but enought is enough.
I am writing to Loki to remove you from TA.

Idiot, I am not sock. I just forgot password. I was never banned.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:42 AM

Idiot, I am not sock. I just forgot password. I was never banned.

I reported you to Loki, Pribislav/Serbo Makeridov.

Dušan

09-11-2020, 11:43 AM

This is not true, independent Croatia existed in 9. century.

It is uncertain. Where are the tombs of rulers?
Tombs of the most of Serbian medieval rulers are known.

There are theory that some of their kings have never existed. Most of their statehood is fairytale.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 11:45 AM

Yes, Military zone was by direct rule of Vienna. Zagreb as provincial town didnt have any jurisdiction over Military zone.
Austrian emparor gave to Serbs some autonomous rights in Military zone.

Yes because many serb migrated to southern borders of Hungary and Croatia at this time because of ottoman opression and it was their "job" defending the borders, that's why they had special rights, similar to székely case in Transylvania they were also border guards.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:46 AM

Look at the subhuman coping and tears :laugh:

And please never again insist we are similar to Servs. To be honest Croats look at them as lower race often.
Almost like Orcs from Mordor, cross of Europeans with Vlachs and Gypsies degenerated with Ottoman-Roma culture.

It's hard to explain to foreigners disgust we feel towards them.

I honestly think Serbia is bottom of Europe when it comes to primitivness of their masses, there is nothing below it.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 11:46 AM

It is uncertain. Where are the tombs of rulers?
Tombs of the most of Serbian medieval rulers are known.

There are theory that some of their kings have never existed. Most of their statehood is fairytale.

You can see many source about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%80%931102)

Ford

09-11-2020, 11:49 AM

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:50 AM

Yes because many serb migrated to southern borders of Hungary and Croatia at this time because of ottoman opression and it was their "job" defending the borders, that's why they had special rights, similar to székely case in Transylvania they were also border guards.

Hmmm, not really. Those Vlachs first served Ottomans as Akinj light troops looting and burning villages and they crossed in masses to Habsburgs relatively late when Ottoman power started declining.
You can check demographic censuses of military frontier, during heyday of Turkish threats Vlachs (later Serbs) were nowhere close to majority.

They mostly served whichever side was stronger.

Which is why Croatian Parliament issued decree to impale any captured Vlach due to war crimes they commited towards villagers.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:52 AM

Except for Balkan Croats? :lol:

Not really. I never saw likes of Deretic and other charlatans among Croats.
In the end, Catholics of Bosnia had better hygienic standards than Orthodoxes according to 19th century accounts.

Varda

09-11-2020, 11:52 AM

I reported you to Loki, Pribislav/Serbo Makeridov.

Crying and accusation is your mentallity. You always expect that somebody protect you from "evill" Serbs. Such times are about to set.

You showed racism and hate on this forum many times, not only towards the Serbs but also toward the some other ethnicities including Croatians from BiH. You don't have a right to teach lessons to anyone.

Ford

09-11-2020, 11:54 AM

Not really. I never saw likes of Deretic and other charlatans among Croats.
In the end, Catholics of Bosnia had better hygienic standards than Orthodoxes according to 19th century accounts.

It was a joke based on your arguments with Insuperable

Dušan

09-11-2020, 11:56 AM

Which is why Croatian Parliament issued decree to impale any captured Vlach due to war crimes they commited towards villagers.

:rotfl2

And Austrian emparor gave privileges to these same Vlachs and encouraged their further settling from Bosnia to military zone.

Who is the boss - Vienna or Zagreb, you little servant?

Renekton

09-11-2020, 11:57 AM

Seems Yugoslavian wars never ends.

xD

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:58 AM

Whoever doesn't see evil in propaganda these Serbs are preaching, never will. Evil needs to be called it's right name.
Serbian nationalistic propaganda is pure evil and cause of suffering of many unluncky people in their neighbourhood.

We tought evil was defeated in 90s, but it lived on.
Which is why we won't be caught sleeping next time, now everyone knows what Serbs are.

Jana

09-11-2020, 11:59 AM

:rotfl2

And Austrian emparor gave privileges to these same Vlachs and encouraged their further settling from Bosnia to military zone.

Who is the boss - Vienna or Zagreb, you little servant?

Yes, Habsburgs allowed Serbs to settle. That's another injustice they did towards us, sent us neighbours from Hell/Mordor.

Ford

09-11-2020, 12:09 PM

https://i.imgur.com/3lK2xJW.png

Blondie

09-11-2020, 12:14 PM

Hmmm, not really. Those Vlachs first served Ottomans as Akinj light troops looting and burning villages and they crossed in masses to Habsburgs relatively late when Ottoman power started declining.
You can check demographic censuses of military frontier, during heyday of Turkish threats Vlachs (later Serbs) were nowhere close to majority.

They mostly served whichever side was stronger.

Which is why Croatian Parliament issued decree to impale any captured Vlach due to war crimes they commited towards villagers.

Vlachs = serbs? I don't consider them vlachs but okay.
There were traitors and collaborators everywhere (even in Hungary), bosniaks are good example for that who adopted the ottoman culture and islam. The history is not black and white, the nationalist narrative makes no sense, basically hungarians, croats, serbs, romanians and many other nation together were against the jihadist invaders. Also Kingdom of Hungary did many faults, for example when serbs have fought against ottomans, the hungarian army invaded the last parts of Serbia, Bosnia including the capital Beograd, or when Matthias Corvinus was the king in 15. century, Hungary as medieval greatpower had one of the most powerful army in Europe (called Black Army), and the hungarian king attacked the HRE instead of Ottoman Empire, but Hungary was enough strong at this time to kick ottomans out from Balkans but they didn't do it, unfortunatelly. So i don't want to blame others, these traitors who were with ottomans and helped them are all in dustbin of history.

Jana

09-11-2020, 12:24 PM

Vlachs = serbs? I don't consider them vlachs but okay.
There were traitors and collaborators everywhere (even in Hungary), bosniaks are good example for that who adopted the ottoman culture and islam. The history is not black and white, the nationalist narrative makes no sense, basically hungarians, croats, serbs, romanians and many other nation together were against the jihadist invaders. Also Kingdom of Hungary did many faults, for example when serbs have fought against ottomans, the hungarian army invaded the last parts of Serbia, Bosnia including the capital Beograd, or when Matthias Corvinus was the king in 15. century, Hungary as medieval greatpower had one of the most powerful army in Europe (called Black Army), and the hungarian king attacked the HRE instead of Ottoman Empire, but Hungary was enough strong at this time to kick ottomans out from Balkans but they didn't do it, unfortunatelly. So i don't want to blame others, these traitors who were with ottomans and helped them are all in dustbin of history.

They were called Vlachs by official laws that regulated their status. It's not my invention but historical reality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statuta_Valachorum

Yes, none history is black and white but Serbs played a role in Ottoman advance in Europe. They served as Turkish vassals in very important battle of Nicopolis against other Europeans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nicopolis

Serbian calvary also helped save Ottomans from Mongol onslaught.

So their stories about being defenders of Europe are very much laughable.
Those slavophone Vlachs (future west Serbs) did serve both Ottomans and Habsburgs depending on who offerered them more.

Kosovo defeat was honorable. But the rest....let's just say I won't spend my time on Serbs any longer.

They should just leave us alone and we will leave them.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 12:53 PM

So their stories about being defenders of Europe are very much laughable.

Basically the Holy League and catholic countries kicked ottomans out from Europe.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 12:54 PM

double

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 12:55 PM

How can every thread end up with a Serbo-Croatian war?

Blondie

09-11-2020, 01:03 PM

How can every thread end up with a Serbo-Croatian war?

At least there is more life in TA :D

Varda

09-11-2020, 02:30 PM

Do you know what most Montenegrins think of Venetian rule? If they weren't ruled by Venetians, maybe it would've been Turks instead. So I guess they won't have much negative things to say about it.

Serbs of Montenegro and Montenegrins who are Montenegrins only formally but in esence Serbs mostly have neutral opinion about presence of Venetians on the part of Montenegrin coast.
Anti-Serbian Montenegrins tend to have have possitive opinion about Venetians and to claim Venetian heritage as own, because they are are pro-Catholic and pro-western.

Manuel

09-11-2020, 02:32 PM

x.

Off-topic q, I hope I am not destroying this thread but where does ur nickname come from?

Varda

09-11-2020, 02:46 PM

Off-topic q, I hope I am not destroying this thread but where does ur nickname come from?

Ardiaei or Vardiaei / Vardaei was Illyrians tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardiaei#Name

Varda is surname among modern Serbs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratko_Varda

Varda is name of village in western Serbia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varda_(Kosjerić)

Mingle

09-11-2020, 02:50 PM

How can every thread end up with a Serbo-Croatian war?Yeah, it can get annoying. It started with saying Austrian-Hungarian administration was superior to the Venetian one and that Croats had more freedom under Austria-Hungary. The latter part was disputed and led to this.

Varda

09-11-2020, 02:56 PM

Yeah, it can get annoying. It started with saying Austrian-Hungarian administration was superior to the Venetian one and that Croats had more freedom under Austria-Hungary. The latter part was disputed and led to this.

In Dalmatia in period of Venetian administration there was no feudal system as in northern Croatia during the most of time of Austrian administration.
Reason for poorness in Dalmatia was geography/nature - lack of fertile land.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 03:52 PM

In Dalmatia in period of Venetian administration there was no feudal system as in northern Croatia during the most of time of Austrian administration.
Reason for poorness in Dalmatia was geography/nature - lack of fertile land.

Austrian administration in southern parts of Croatia was between 1553–1881.

Blondie

09-11-2020, 04:03 PM

Southern part of Küstenland was part of Austria
The austrian military administration was in Lika Korbava, eastern parts of Modrus-Fiume, south Zágráb, south Pozsega, Belovár-Kőrös and Szerém
Under the hungarian Holy Crown: western Modrus-Fiume, most Zágráb, Varasd and Verőce.

Varda

09-11-2020, 04:04 PM

Austrian administration in southern parts of Croatia was between 1553–1881.

Not in Dalmatia.
Dalmatia was under the Austrian rule in period 1797-1918 (minus 1806-1814, when it was under the Napoleon).

Blondie

09-11-2020, 04:09 PM

Not in Dalmatia.
Dalmatia was under the Austrian rule in period 1797-1918 (minus 1806-1814) when it was under the Napoleon).

Yes i know i have talked about inner Croatia.

Faklon

09-11-2020, 04:35 PM

Faralko, a mountainous village of laconia (peloponnese) built by and named after a local venetian lord in the late 15th century

102094

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zHuv1bYpcG8/WvH72GTzLtI/AAAAAAABA_M/yG1EaDKzWk0d3Im38an6xZu7gjXTyIA_wCLcBGAs/s1600/%25CE%25A6%25CF%2589%25CF%2584%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B3 %25CF%2581%25CE%25B1%25CF%2586%25CE%25AF%25CE%25B1 0123.jpg

https://monemvasia.gov.gr/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/farakloesolink.jpg

https://www.visitvatika.gr/images/Villages/Faraklo/Faraklo24.jpg

Some natives that i met there when i visited the place (along with monemvasia, 3 years ago) descrided the venetian part of their heritage very positively. No need to talk about monemvasia: byzantine and venetian heritage is everywhere, even in restaurants and hotels names (malvasia, enetikon, vyzantinon etc)

There is nothing unique in these buildings.

Let me do this for you, there is neighborhood in Chios (Pyrgi) that was influenced by the Sgraffito style that was brought by the Ligurians in the 15th century.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2017/10/25/pyrgi-thestunning-medieval-village-chios-2/

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/qcD9apTFioT70serqjJw_thumb_2868.webp

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/R7AUEFC8SOZxZIaeeBtHg_thumb_2865.webp

But it's a small neighborhood, the rest of the island looked fully Byzantine,

https://www.greeka.com/photos/eastern-aegean/chios/architecture/hero/chios-architecture-1280.webp

No difference with mountain villages in mainland with no Venetian or other influence.

https://en.myantaeus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%83%C E%B9.png

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ojQtfz7DRkE/maxresdefault.jpg

Cycladic people using white houses is a greater difference.

Varda

09-11-2020, 06:12 PM

Venetian republic was "balkanized" or Balkan folks who lived under the Venetian republic were "venetized/italianized." Depends on the angle from which it is viewed. Most correct to say is that both processes which I mentioned in the first sentence are happened in some degree.

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 06:35 PM

There is nothing unique in these buildings.

Let me do this for you, there is neighborhood in Chios (Pyrgi) that was influenced by the Sgraffito style that was brought by the Ligurians in the 15th century.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2017/10/25/pyrgi-thestunning-medieval-village-chios-2/

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/qcD9apTFioT70serqjJw_thumb_2868.webp

https://greekcitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/R7AUEFC8SOZxZIaeeBtHg_thumb_2865.webp

But it's a small neighborhood, the rest of the island looked fully Byzantine,

https://www.greeka.com/photos/eastern-aegean/chios/architecture/hero/chios-architecture-1280.webp

No difference with mountain villages in mainland with no Venetian or other influence.

https://en.myantaeus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%80%CE%B5%CE%BD%CE%AE%CF%83%C E%B9.png

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ojQtfz7DRkE/maxresdefault.jpg

Cycladic people using white houses is a greater difference.

Both of the pics that you posted in the end are irrelevant, and especially the last one which is mainly composed of very recent buildings, mainly built for touristic purposes

But to be fair it certainly doesnt differ from the typical style of mountainous southern Greece (peloponnese and sterea south of lamia) which itself is not terribly different from the mountainous areas of non-alpine regions of italy

The point is that the village (and the rest around it as far as i remember) was built by and named after venetians. Was anything in Chios built by Venetians?

Faklon

09-11-2020, 06:52 PM

Both of the pics that you posted in the end are irrelevant, and especially the last one which is mainly composed of very recent buildings, mainly built for touristic purposes

But to be fair it certainly doesnt differ from the typical style of mountainous southern Greece (peloponnese and sterea south of lamia) which itself is not terribly different from the mountainous areas of non-alpine regions of italy

The point is that the village (and the rest around it as far as i remember) was built by and named after venetians. Was anything in Chios built by Venetians?

Ioannina, Northernmost Greece

same pattern

https://www.driverstories.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/%CE%B4%CF%88%CF%86%CE%B3%CF%89%CE%B4.jpg

All area from Northern Greece to Peloponnese is pretty similar. No Venetian occupation needed.

Fornesighe, Veneto

https://www.e-borghi.com/public/02_03_20-11_08_29-x785f9c66cce6f0c0bf5fb88c716e3a3.jpg

Very different

Was anything in Chios built by Venetians?

No why it should be?

If Americans come and built your village in African architecture, will you call it American influence? lel incel

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 07:00 PM

Ioannina, Northernmost Greece

same pattern

https://www.driverstories.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/%CE%B4%CF%88%CF%86%CE%B3%CF%89%CE%B4.jpg

All area from Northern Greece to Peloponnese is pretty similar. No Venetian occupation needed.

Fornesighe, Veneto

https://www.e-borghi.com/public/02_03_20-11_08_29-x785f9c66cce6f0c0bf5fb88c716e3a3.jpg

Very different

No why it should be?

If Americans come and built your village in African architecture, will you call it American influence? lel incel

It certainly is very different, as long as its in dolomiti alps, not around venice, and i already typed "non-alpine italian villages"

This
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b5/2e/5c/b52e5c5f6fe804e855dd27c9e1d0069f.jpg

Is a more accurate pic according to what i have experienced more than 2 times in non-alpine Italy myself. Not very different

If nothing was built in Chios by Venetians, then Chios is irrelevant to the thread.

Things are not so complicated, incel

Faklon

09-11-2020, 07:07 PM

It certainly is very different, as long as its in dolomiti alps, not around venice, and i already typed "non-alpine italian villages"

This
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b5/2e/5c/b52e5c5f6fe804e855dd27c9e1d0069f.jpg

Is a more accurate pic according to what i have experienced more than 2 times in non-alpine Italy myself. Not very different

If nothing was built in Chios by Venetians, then Chios is irrelevant to the thread.

Things are not so complicated, incel

Chios is not relevant to Venetians but the patterns of Pyrgi is something new brought by other people (whereas they may be Westerners, Africans or Japanese).

You are so passive (c word) that who did what is more important to you than what he did.

Keep nuthugging Maghrebian-looking momunents from Crete as Eastern Venice lel.

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 07:27 PM

Chios is not relevant to Venetians but the patterns of Pyrgi is something new brought by other people (whereas they may be Westerners, Africans or Japanese).

You are so passive (c word) that who did what is more important to you than what he did.

Keep nuthugging Maghrebian-looking momunents from Crete as Eastern Venice lel.

By this logic we can argue all night about all kinds of foreign influence in the country. The thread was supposed to be about venice, Chios, along with being uninteresting itself, is irrelevant to venice, and therefore irrelevant to the discussion

What has been done is directly associated to who has done it, and i have wasted whole pages in the beggining of this thread talking about what was done by venetians, i am not here to waste my time trying to persuade anyone who is not smarter than a pork-shoulder sandwich

Talking about pork shoulder sandwich (and intelligence), mind doing me the favor to not quote me, so that i wont waste time in notifications?

Faklon

09-11-2020, 07:33 PM

...

Nobody invited you here.

I mean we usually don't speak about retards infront of retards.

Chios produces Mastic which is a very interesting thing and more relevant to reality and Greek development than any of this mastrubation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MepbREttF0Y&ab_channel=TRTWorld

Amen

Varda

09-11-2020, 07:39 PM

Kotor in Montenegro have Venetian architecture, it was under the Venetian rule in period 1420-1797 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotor

https://youtu.be/aDyGYhYj3tU

From one book about history of Montenegro, about Kotor.

Zeta and Raška - two Serbian states in late 12th century unified župan Stefan Nemanja. Nemanjić dynasty ruled on Serbia over two centuries. During their rule Kotor has flourished in every sense. In Kotor have devreoped strongly culture, sailing, shipbuilding, trade, crafts, political life.
Kotor was main port on medieval Serbia. From Kotor sea lanes lead towards the all important ports of Adriatic and Mediterranean. Kotor maintained trade and martime connections with Dubrovnik, Venice, Bari, Durrës, Ancona, Vlorë, Corfu, Partas...
Except martime, Kotor also had developed trade by land. Took place by caravan route in three directions. Zeta road - via Gurdići and Mirca towards the Podgorica, Plav, Prizren, Skopje and further towards the Constantinople. Northern road - started from Škudra and than via Risan and Onogošt (Nikšić) arrived in Brskovo, and from there in one direction towards the Breznica, in second direction towards the Bijelo Polje, Prijepolje and Trgovište, and in third direction towards the Peć, Priština and Novo Brdo. Coastal road - via Budva, Bar, Ulcinj, Sveti Srđ and Sveti Spas towards the Prizren, where it was merged with Zeta road.

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 07:40 PM

Nobody invited you here.

I mean we usually don't speak about retards infront of retards.

You are right, i just made an exception, as the last time that i talked to someone about you, was literraly 4 years ago, and certainly not in front of you (accidentaly all Greeks had a similar opinion about you)

As far as we are in a forum i can post wherever i want, without any invitation. So would you like to respond to my request?

Vid Flumina

09-11-2020, 08:35 PM

brennus dux gallorum

09-11-2020, 08:52 PM

That's Lecce nei Marsi in Abruzzo. For non-alpine Veneto look up Padova/Riviera del Brenta, Conegliano, Schio or Treviso

I am aware, i just brought it as an example of non-alpine italian countryside as i personally experienced it.

Btw these examples are cities, not villages

renaissance12

09-12-2020, 07:42 AM

I am aware, i just brought it as an example of non-alpine italian countryside as i personally experienced it.

Btw these examples are cities, not villages

Italian country side are very varied...

brennus dux gallorum

09-12-2020, 09:04 AM

Italian country side are very varied...

Having been there for many times i confirm.

The parts that reminded me the mountains of peloponnese, and to a degree central Greeece calabria and abruzzo, meanwhile coasts of puglia were significantly similar to southern Greek and Aegean islands coasts. Ionian coasts and the coasts of mainland with venetian influence have a more "central/northern" italian vibe

On the other hand alpine regions or places like parma, torino etc felt completely alien, meanwhile parts, and the same goes for more inland northern regions of Greece

Italy and even Greece have a higher variety within their borders than the whole scandinavia and baltic states combined