Natives are genetically much more divergent from Asiatics than even Indians are to Europeans?

[Maguzanci]

This is insane...I didn't expect 20,000-30,000 years of separation of Natives from Asiatics can cause much genetic divergence... (PYF_150 and Botocudo are Polynesians btw). Also Botai is an ancient group called Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers from Kazakhstan.

Distance to: Surui

0.45144807 Chukchi
0.50381745 Koryak
0.53161020 KAZ_Botai
0.55156500 Altaian
0.55528829 Yukagir_Tundra
0.55907543 Selkup
0.55926897 Kazakh
0.56170177 Ket
0.57265833 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.57328313 Hazara
0.58726398 Sherpa
0.58932856 JPN_Jomon
0.59467301 Japanese
0.60032053 Aeta
0.60447868 Onge
0.61563785 Malay
0.61677137 BRA_Botocudo
0.61727473 Udmurt
0.61745215 Saami
0.62104489 Bonda
0.62442478 Dai
0.62713080 PYF_150BP
0.62957509 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.63061934 Luzon
0.64498427 Paniya


Distance to: Velamas (midcaste from South India)


Distance to: Velamas
0.02948442 Punjabi_Lahore
0.05188826 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.19373848 Balochi
0.22050721 Tajik
0.24348394 Uygur
0.29265249 Udmurt
0.29464021 Chechen
0.31607171 Mari
0.32183968 Georgian_Imer
0.32196834 Saami
0.32256238 Armenian
0.32256838 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35077714 Hungarian
0.35098842 Italian_Tuscany
0.35852091 Irish
0.36033086 Swedish
0.36718953 Saudi
0.36895333 Moroccan_North
0.37479319 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40084321 Sardinian
0.42695245 Eritrean
0.43605525 Ethiopian_Amhara
0.47986719 Somali
0.53230494 WHG


A more shortened one so can se clearly.

Distance to: Pima
0.46300918 Altaian
0.47118075 Yukagir_Tundra
0.47170680 Kazakh
0.48935916 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.50309788 Sherpa
0.50901470 JPN_Jomon
0.51351575 Japanese
0.52262922 Aeta
0.53825127 Malay
0.54699183 Dai
0.55549131 Luzon

Distance to: Velamas
0.29265249 Udmurt
0.31607171 Mari
0.32196834 Saami
0.32256838 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35077714 Hungarian
0.35098842 Italian_Tuscany
0.35852091 Irish
0.36033086 Swedish
0.37479319 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40084321 Sardinian
0.53230494 WHG
...................

Distance to: Surui
0.55156500 Altaian
0.55528829 Yukagir_Tundra
0.55926897 Kazakh
0.57265833 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.58726398 Sherpa
0.58932856 JPN_Jomon
0.59467301 Japanese
0.60032053 Aeta
0.61563785 Malay
0.62442478 Dai
0.63061934 Luzon

Distance to: Punjabi_Jatt
0.20097085 Udmurt
0.20223741 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.23648429 Saami
0.23702569 Hungarian
0.24208672 Mari
0.24269117 Italian_Tuscany
0.24372003 Irish
0.24669102 Swedish
0.28345721 RUS_Samara_HG
0.30775119 Sardinian
0.46137171 WHG
....................
Distance to: Nahua
0.45872069 Altaian
0.46629917 Kazakh
0.47099982 Yukagir_Tundra
0.48862662 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.50118473 Sherpa
0.50810482 JPN_Jomon
0.51275069 Japanese
0.52192616 Aeta
0.53704657 Malay
0.54630823 Dai
0.55500117 Luzon

Distance to: Bengali_Bangladesh
0.28279072 Udmurt
0.30187513 Mari
0.30933370 Saami
0.33035752 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35516587 Hungarian
0.35922458 Italian_Tuscany
0.36287571 Irish
0.36360128 Swedish
0.37292777 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40636844 Sardinian
0.52731704 WHG

[Maguzanci]

A more shortened one so can se clearly.

Distance to: Pima
0.46300918 Altaian
0.47118075 Yukagir_Tundra
0.47170680 Kazakh
0.48935916 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.50309788 Sherpa
0.50901470 JPN_Jomon
0.51351575 Japanese
0.52262922 Aeta
0.53825127 Malay
0.54699183 Dai
0.55549131 Luzon

Distance to: Velamas
0.29265249 Udmurt
0.31607171 Mari
0.32196834 Saami
0.32256838 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35077714 Hungarian
0.35098842 Italian_Tuscany
0.35852091 Irish
0.36033086 Swedish
0.37479319 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40084321 Sardinian
0.53230494 WHG
...................

Distance to: Surui
0.55156500 Altaian
0.55528829 Yukagir_Tundra
0.55926897 Kazakh
0.57265833 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.58726398 Sherpa
0.58932856 JPN_Jomon
0.59467301 Japanese
0.60032053 Aeta
0.61563785 Malay
0.62442478 Dai
0.63061934 Luzon

Distance to: Punjabi_Jatt
0.20097085 Udmurt
0.20223741 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.23648429 Saami
0.23702569 Hungarian
0.24208672 Mari
0.24269117 Italian_Tuscany
0.24372003 Irish
0.24669102 Swedish
0.28345721 RUS_Samara_HG
0.30775119 Sardinian
0.46137171 WHG
....................
Distance to: Nahua
0.45872069 Altaian
0.46629917 Kazakh
0.47099982 Yukagir_Tundra
0.48862662 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.50118473 Sherpa
0.50810482 JPN_Jomon
0.51275069 Japanese
0.52192616 Aeta
0.53704657 Malay
0.54630823 Dai
0.55500117 Luzon

Distance to: Bengali_Bangladesh
0.28279072 Udmurt
0.30187513 Mari
0.30933370 Saami
0.33035752 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35516587 Hungarian
0.35922458 Italian_Tuscany
0.36287571 Irish
0.36360128 Swedish
0.37292777 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40636844 Sardinian
0.52731704 WHG

[Chris596]

This is really interesting. I'm predominantly European with a little East Asian ancestry and I'm even closer to some East Asians. But how is this possible? I thought most Amerindians must be much closer to them.

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.43500262 Altaian
0.52704592 Burmese
0.52977829 Thai
0.54728784 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.55120406 Malay
0.55932749 Cambodian
0.56542795 Mongola
0.58504113 Han_Shanxi
0.58906149 Kinh_Vietnam
0.59053283 Han_Henan
0.59316369 Japanese

My father:

Distance to: ChrisFather
0.43500262 Altaian
0.52027069 Burmese
0.52270082 Thai
0.54097503 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.54416243 Malay
0.55218510 Cambodian
0.55901619 Mongola
0.57824888 Han_Shanxi
0.58159669 Kinh_Vietnam
0.58348780 Han_Henan
0.58639879 Japanese

[Seya]

amerindians are siberian people. they're not east asians. they plot in the center of siberia. right in between east and west siberia

[Maguzanci]

This is really interesting. I'm predominantly European with a little East Asian ancestry and I'm even closer to some East Asians. But how is this possible? I thought most Amerindians must be much closer to them.

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.43500262 Altaian
0.52704592 Burmese
0.52977829 Thai
0.54728784 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.55120406 Malay
0.55932749 Cambodian
0.56542795 Mongola
0.58504113 Han_Shanxi
0.58906149 Kinh_Vietnam
0.59053283 Han_Henan
0.59316369 Japanese

My father:

Distance to: ChrisFather
0.43500262 Altaian
0.52027069 Burmese
0.52270082 Thai
0.54097503 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.54416243 Malay
0.55218510 Cambodian
0.55901619 Mongola
0.57824888 Han_Shanxi
0.58159669 Kinh_Vietnam
0.58348780 Han_Henan
0.58639879 Japanese

I wonder if it has to do with the fact that Amerindians are very genetically divergent from Asiatics/East Asians after being isolated in the American continents for 15000-20000 years? Also maybe you have recent East Asian ancestry thus closer distance, while the Asiatic ancestry of those Natives are very ancient?

Here are some Natives for comparison: not that much difference in distance to you and East Asians methinks:

Distance to: Pima
0.46300918 Altaian
0.49843287 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.49883118 Mongola
0.50252973 Burmese
0.51351575 Japanese
0.51548165 Han_Shanxi
0.51916829 Thai
0.52074227 Han_Henan
0.53705408 Kinh_Vietnam
0.53825127 Malay

Distance to: Nahua
0.45872069 Altaian
0.49653748 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.49723681 Mongola
0.50067021 Burmese
0.51275069 Japanese
0.51416564 Han_Shanxi
0.51746701 Thai
0.51948607 Han_Henan
0.53627489 Kinh_Vietnam
0.53704657 Malay

Distance to: Surui
0.55156500 Altaian
0.58303222 Mongola
0.58306446 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.58556412 Burmese
0.59467301 Japanese
0.59745968 Han_Shanxi
0.59931826 Thai
0.60220315 Han_Henan
0.61505200 Kinh_Vietnam
0.61563785 Malay

Can you try run some Native populations into your distance such as Pima, Surui, Nahua, Huichol, Amerindian_North, Zapotec, USA_Kennewick, Quechua?

[Token]

This is insane...I didn't expect 20,000-30,000 years of separation of Natives from Asiatics can cause much genetic divergence... (PYF_150 and Botocudo are Polynesians btw). Also Botai is an ancient group called Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers from Kazakhstan.

Are you being ironic? Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster. Native Americans set foot in the Americas just at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum and have been endogamous since then, what were you expecting?

[Thambi]

Are you being ironic? Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster. Native Americans set foot in the Americas just at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum and have been endogamous since then, what were you expecting?

I guess indians being closer to northwest euros than natives are to east asians came off as a big shocker.. Especially given that natives still share mongoloid features to a large degree with east asians.

[Maguzanci]

Are you being ironic? Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster. Native Americans set foot in the Americas just at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum and have been endogamous since then, what were you expecting?

Nope. Because why would I make this thread in the first place? I want to know why the genetic distance is so high.

Ok I didn't know about this. So I guess its a case of genetic drift. But why do some groups have lower genetic distance despite being separated from each other for a long time?

What would the actual distance of Natives be to Asiatics then if there were no isolation/drift? Would it be closer than Indians are to Euros or similar distances?

[Maguzanci]

I guess indians being closer to northwest euros than natives are to east asians came off as a big shocker.. Especially given that natives still share mongoloid features to a large degree with east asians.

Are you flabbergasted yourself seeing the distance?

[Token]

Nope. Because why would I make this thread in the first place? I want to know the genetic distance is so high.

Ok I didn't know about this. So I guess its a cae of genetic drift. But why do some groups have lower genetic distance despite being separated from each other for a long time
None of them have been isolated for nearly as much time as Amerindians.


What would the actual distance of Natives be to Asiatics then if there were no isolation/drift? Would it be closer than Indians are to Euros or similar distances?
Native Americans are pretty much Siberians in terms of deep ancestry, the drift caused by endogamy mess up the dimensions of the PCA.

[Token]

I guess indians being closer to northwest euros than natives are to east asians came off as a big shocker.. Especially given that natives still share mongoloid features to a large degree with east asians.

Indians share a lot more recent ancestry with Northwestern Europeans than Amerindians share with East Asians. Indians were never a static entity living isolated from the rest of the world, there has been continuous geneflow from all directions since ever.

[Thambi]

Are you flabbergasted yourself seeing the distance?

kind of, but again the more I think of it not really. Natives have diverged quite early from east asians. even siberians are far from modern east asians on these charts. south indians are closer to tajiks and uyghurs than yakuts are to koreans according to these distances atleast. The ANE is a very differentiating component im assuming despite the pheno similarities.

Distance to: Yakut
0.26195371 Korean
0.26370013 Han_Shanxi
0.26410502 Japanese
0.27125031 Han_Henan
0.27331411 Han_Shandong
0.28462081 Han_Shanghai
0.28570350 Han_Jiangsu
0.29150999 Han_Zhejiang
0.29158384 Han_Hubei
0.29329037 Han_Sichuan
0.30132979 Han_Chongqing
0.30405598 Han_Fujian
0.31409786 Han_Guangdong


Indians are closer to euros than they are to aborigines for example but phenotype wise i've seen more indians that look like the latter group.

[Chris596]

I wonder if it has to do with the fact that Amerindians are very genetically divergent from Asiatics/East Asians after being isolated in the American continents for 15000-20000 years? Also maybe you have recent East Asian ancestry thus closer distance, while the Asiatic ancestry of those Natives are very ancient?

Here are some Natives for comparison: not that much difference in distance to you and East Asians methinks:

...

Can you try run some Native populations into your distance such as Pima, Surui, Nahua, Huichol, Amerindian_North, Zapotec, USA_Kennewick, Quechua?

Well, this could be the explanation to it. My father is Szekely Hungarian and most Szekelys consider themselves the descendant of the Huns (could be Xiongnu for instance). But it also happens that I get modeled as 80/90% European + 10/20% Tatar or something.

Okay, I ran myself and my dad with some of these samples. As you can see most Amerindians are far from us, I think it's because we don't share ancestry with them. I think I've read somewhere that North Amerindians are the most similar to East Asians (more recent migration?)

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.58611650 Amerindian_North
0.61783246 Quechua
0.63435818 Zapotec
0.63897731 Nahua
0.64745619 Pima
0.64820294 Huichol
0.71449200 Surui

Distance to: ChrisFather
0.58844972 Amerindian_North
0.62094158 Quechua
0.63737592 Zapotec
0.64182914 Nahua
0.65015513 Pima
0.65150394 Huichol
0.71737293 Surui


And here are some of our mixed mode oracles if you're interested in these as well:

Me


[1,] "89.4% Montenegrin + 10.6% Tatar_Mishar" "0.0204"
[2,] "59.5% Gagauz + 40.5% Slovakian" "0.0205"
[3,] "92.9% Montenegrin + 7.1% Tatar_Lipka" "0.0206"
[4,] "48.2% Cossack_Ukrainian + 51.8% Greek" "0.0207"
[5,] "56.7% Greek + 43.3% Russian_Tver" "0.0207"
[6,] "75.5% Bulgarian + 24.5% Russian_Tver" "0.0208"
[7,] "91.8% Montenegrin + 8.2% Tatar_Kazan" "0.0208"
[8,] "33.9% Cossack_Ukrainian + 66.1% Gagauz" "0.0209"
[9,] "54% Albanian + 46% Cossack_Ukrainian" "0.0209"
[10,] "20% Ingrian + 80% Macedonian" "0.0209"
[11,] "3.1% Ket + 96.9% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[12,] "58.8% Albanian + 41.2% Russian_Tver" "0.021"
[13,] "2.1% Igorot + 97.9% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[14,] "98.1% Montenegrin + 1.9% Tujia" "0.021"
[15,] "1.9% Atayal + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[16,] "1.9% Miao + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[17,] "1.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[18,] "1.9% Han + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[19,] "2.2% Dungan + 97.8% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[20,] "71.9% Bulgarian + 28.1% Cossack_Ukrainian" "0.021"


My Father


[1,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Tujia" "0.0411"
[2,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Miao" "0.0411"
[3,] "3.8% Dai + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[4,] "3.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 96.1% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[5,] "3.7% Igorot + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[6,] "3.8% Han + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[7,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% She" "0.0412"
[8,] "3.7% Atayal + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0412"
[9,] "3.8% Lahu + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0412"
[10,] "3.7% Ami + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0413"
[11,] "3.7% Luzon + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0413"
[12,] "96.3% Macedonian + 3.7% Murut" "0.0413"
[13,] "4.3% Dungan + 95.7% Macedonian" "0.0413"
[14,] "3.7% Korean + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0414"
[15,] "3.8% Htin_Mal + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0414"
[16,] "3.8% Han_NChina + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0414"
[17,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Naxi" "0.0414"
[18,] "3.7% Dusun + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0415"
[19,] "4% Cambodian + 96% Macedonian" "0.0415"
[20,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Yi" "0.0415"
[21,] "97.5% Gagauz + 2.5% Igorot" "0.0415"
[22,] "3.7% Japanese + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0416"
[23,] "3.8% Hawaiian + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0416"
[24,] "95.9% Macedonian + 4.1% Thai" "0.0416"
[25,] "96% Macedonian + 4% Tu" "0.0416"

[Leto]

Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster.
Are they not fully Northwestern European? Would they score something else or in different proportions? I thought they were just white like the rest of the Irish, just a cultural subgroup a bit like German Mennonites (only not faith-based).

[Ion Basescul]

This is insane...I didn't expect 20,000-30,000 years of separation of Natives from Asiatics can cause much genetic divergence... (PYF_150 and Botocudo are Polynesians btw). Also Botai is an ancient group called Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers from Kazakhstan.

Did you live under a rock for the past 10 years in genetics? Indians descend from Ancient Europeans, Ancient West Asians that lived around Iran and local South Indian Hunter Gatherers. It is only natural that they will be kind of close to other West Eurasians.

[Alenka]

I think I'v read somewhere that North Amerindians are the most similar to East Asians (more recent migration?)

The most recent migration are the Eskimos, followed by North Amerindians.

[Token]

Are they not fully Northwestern European? Would they score something else or in different proportions? I thought they were just white like the rest of the Irish, just a cultural subgroup a bit like German Mennonites (only not faith-based).

They are fully Northwestern Europeans, but they still behave weirdly in a PCA.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSRryCNfK3prEVHDDWUsopamC4nPkz 5aYMaLw&usqp=CAU

It is the same idea for Amerindians, but with the weirdness multiplied by 1000.

Something similar happens to Slavs. They are extremely similar to Northwest Europeans in terms of ancestry components, but they are still easily distinguishable in a PCA due to recent drift (what is popularly known as Balto-Slavic drift)

[Maguzanci]

Did you live under a rock for the past 10 years in genetics? Indians descend from Ancient Europeans, Ancient West Asians that lived around Iran and local South Indian Hunter Gatherers. It is only natural that they will be kind of close to other West Eurasians.

No need to insult.

Of couse i know that. But Indians are not considered as West Eurasian group. They are only 45-55% West Eurasian on average similar to Horn Africans like Ethiopians, Somalians. The remaining of their genes is AASI (and somtimes East Asian admix in the cases of Bengalis and some groups that live close to SE Asia or Himalayas like Nepalis) which i thought would make them very distant and diverged from West Eurasians.

If you think Indians are West Eurasian pop, then you must see Horn Africans as West Eurasian group and not a mixed intermediate population.

[Zoro]

Are you being ironic? Irish travellers lived in isolation for just a few hundred years, and they are already easily distinguishable from the main Irish cluster. Native Americans set foot in the Americas just at the end of the Last Glacial Maximum and have been endogamous since then, what were you expecting?

Exactly why it's not wise to rely on PCAs or G25 to infer relatedness.

[Maguzanci]

Well, this could be the explanation to it. My father is Szekely Hungarian and most Szekelys consider themselves the descendant of the Huns (could be Xiongnu for instance). But it also happens that I get modeled as 80/90% European + 10/20% Tatar or something.

Okay, I ran myself and my dad with some of these samples. As you can see most Amerindians are far from us, I think it's because we don't share ancestry with them. I think I've read somewhere that North Amerindians are the most similar to East Asians (more recent migration?)

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.58611650 Amerindian_North
0.61783246 Quechua
0.63435818 Zapotec
0.63897731 Nahua
0.64745619 Pima
0.64820294 Huichol
0.71449200 Surui

Distance to: ChrisFather
0.58844972 Amerindian_North
0.62094158 Quechua
0.63737592 Zapotec
0.64182914 Nahua
0.65015513 Pima
0.65150394 Huichol
0.71737293 Surui


And here are some of our mixed mode oracles if you're interested in these as well:

Me


[1,] "89.4% Montenegrin + 10.6% Tatar_Mishar" "0.0204"
[2,] "59.5% Gagauz + 40.5% Slovakian" "0.0205"
[3,] "92.9% Montenegrin + 7.1% Tatar_Lipka" "0.0206"
[4,] "48.2% Cossack_Ukrainian + 51.8% Greek" "0.0207"
[5,] "56.7% Greek + 43.3% Russian_Tver" "0.0207"
[6,] "75.5% Bulgarian + 24.5% Russian_Tver" "0.0208"
[7,] "91.8% Montenegrin + 8.2% Tatar_Kazan" "0.0208"
[8,] "33.9% Cossack_Ukrainian + 66.1% Gagauz" "0.0209"
[9,] "54% Albanian + 46% Cossack_Ukrainian" "0.0209"
[10,] "20% Ingrian + 80% Macedonian" "0.0209"
[11,] "3.1% Ket + 96.9% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[12,] "58.8% Albanian + 41.2% Russian_Tver" "0.021"
[13,] "2.1% Igorot + 97.9% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[14,] "98.1% Montenegrin + 1.9% Tujia" "0.021"
[15,] "1.9% Atayal + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[16,] "1.9% Miao + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[17,] "1.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[18,] "1.9% Han + 98.1% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[19,] "2.2% Dungan + 97.8% Montenegrin" "0.021"
[20,] "71.9% Bulgarian + 28.1% Cossack_Ukrainian" "0.021"


My Father


[1,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Tujia" "0.0411"
[2,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Miao" "0.0411"
[3,] "3.8% Dai + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[4,] "3.9% Kinh_Vietnam + 96.1% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[5,] "3.7% Igorot + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[6,] "3.8% Han + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0411"
[7,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% She" "0.0412"
[8,] "3.7% Atayal + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0412"
[9,] "3.8% Lahu + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0412"
[10,] "3.7% Ami + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0413"
[11,] "3.7% Luzon + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0413"
[12,] "96.3% Macedonian + 3.7% Murut" "0.0413"
[13,] "4.3% Dungan + 95.7% Macedonian" "0.0413"
[14,] "3.7% Korean + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0414"
[15,] "3.8% Htin_Mal + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0414"
[16,] "3.8% Han_NChina + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0414"
[17,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Naxi" "0.0414"
[18,] "3.7% Dusun + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0415"
[19,] "4% Cambodian + 96% Macedonian" "0.0415"
[20,] "96.2% Macedonian + 3.8% Yi" "0.0415"
[21,] "97.5% Gagauz + 2.5% Igorot" "0.0415"
[22,] "3.7% Japanese + 96.3% Macedonian" "0.0416"
[23,] "3.8% Hawaiian + 96.2% Macedonian" "0.0416"
[24,] "95.9% Macedonian + 4.1% Thai" "0.0416"
[25,] "96% Macedonian + 4% Tu" "0.0416"


What's the highest amount of Mongoloid ancestry you have seen for a Hungarian? Are Szekelys more East Asian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Yep, Natives seem to be more distant genetically from you and your dad than East Asians. I think your East Eurasian admix might be distinct than the ones ancestral to Amerindians, that could also be why they are genetically distant from you. Although, Ket, Selkup, Chukchi, Koryak are one of the closest groups to Native Americans genetically. Can you try to run them along with other Siberians like Yakut, Oroqen or include them along with the general East Asian groups in you and your dad distance runs?

Actually Inuits/Eskimos are even more similar to East Asians than Northern Natives are. But they are not considered American Indians because they are pretty recent migrants from Siberians compared to Natives. So yes, Northern Amerindians are the most East Asian-shifted/similar to East Asians among Native Americans.

You seem to be around 2% Mongoloid while your dad seems approx 4% East Asian? Are you and your dad more East Eurasian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Also it's interesting that the East Asian ancestry of you and your dad is Southern Chinese/SE Asian-related rather than Tungusic/Mongolic/Turkic which would be the Mongoloid ancestors of the Huns.

[Maguzanci]

None of them have been isolated for nearly as much time as Amerindians.


Native Americans are pretty much Siberians in terms of deep ancestry, the drift caused by endogamy mess up the dimensions of the PCA.

Ok that make sense. Is the drift also the reason why they plot further East than where they should be located on PCA? I noticed that in many PCAs including in this G25 one, Natives are located only slightly western of Mongolians who are approx. 20-21% West Eurasian, on a East-West Eurasia-Africa Global PCA. If there is no drift, would Amerindians, being approx. 23-30% West Eurasian from their ANE, plot closer to the Altaian, Kyrgyz, Khakass who also have similar amounts of Western ancestry?

Like in this PCA based on the ANE K6 calculator?: (its not created by me, I got it from somewhere else, originally its from the user Petalpusher if I remembered). As you can see in this PCA, the Pima is plot slightly east of the Altaian while Clovis-Anzick plot slightly east of the Kyrgyz?
https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1601189507666.png

[Chris596]

What's the highest amount of Mongoloid ancestry you have seen for a Hungarian? Are Szekelys more East Asian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Yep, Natives seem to be more distant genetically from you and your dad than East Asians. I think your East Eurasian admix might be distinct than the ones ancestral to Amerindians, that could also be why they are genetically distant from you. Although, Ket, Selkup, Chukchi, Koryak are one of the closest groups to Native Americans genetically. Can you try to run them along with other Siberians like Yakut, Oroqen or include them along with the general East Asian groups in you and your dad distance runs?

Actually Inuits/Eskimos are even more similar to East Asians than Northern Natives are. But they are not considered American Indians because they are pretty recent migrants from Siberians compared to Natives. So yes, Northern Amerindians are the most East Asian-shifted/similar to East Asians among Native Americans.

You seem to be around 2% Mongoloid while your dad seems approx 4% East Asian? Are you and your dad more East Eurasian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Also it's interesting that the East Asian ancestry of you and your dad is Southern Chinese/SE Asian-related rather than Tungusic/Mongolic/Turkic which would be the Mongoloid ancestors of the Huns.

Yes I think I'm around 2% and my father is around 4% East Asian. It happens that I get Chinese or other South Chinese groups in many calculators (like Dai, Naxi, etc.). Even FTDNA said that I'm around 1% Southeast Asian, but that has disappeared after the newest update. Many full Szekelys get 2-3% Chinese/Japanese/Korean on Myheritage and what's really weird that I got nothing, but I'm waiting for the new update, maybe it will be fixed for me too.

So I consider myself average, or maybe a bit over the whole Hungarian average thanks to my half Szekely ancestry.

Based on what I've seen so far (here on the forum, Reddit, YouTube, DNA test results, etc.) the Hungarian average in Hungary is around 1% or lower. Szekely Hungarians are usually around 3-4-5% East Asian + Siberian (Mongoloid), so my dad is average I think. There are also other groups of Hungarians (Csango or Csangos) and they can be 6-7% Mongoloid, I believe Ion Basescul can help you more because he has Csango results.

Also, many people have more Siberian than actual East Asian ancestry, but it's the opposite in my case for some reason.

Here are the Siberian groups that you mentioned plus general East Asian nations, compared to me and my father:



Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.36126184 Ket
0.40070146 Mala
0.42774208 Malayan
0.43512974 Selkup
0.47284299 Mongolian
0.52977829 Thai
0.54754375 Yakut
0.55120406 Malay
0.56441033 Chukchi
0.56542795 Mongola
0.56566487 Koryak
0.56835789 Indonesian_Bali
0.57841607 Indonesian_Java
0.58335360 Oroqen
0.58504113 Han_Shanxi
0.58626161 Lahu
0.58906149 Kinh_Vietnam
0.59053283 Han_Henan
0.59316369 Japanese
0.59478467 Han_Shandong
0.59538412 Han_Shanghai
0.59616686 Han_Sichuan
0.60037977 Korean
0.60125132 Han_Chongqing
0.60197788 Han_Hubei
0.60217430 Han_Fujian
0.60236773 Han_Jiangsu
0.60286939 Han_Zhejiang
0.60396400 Han_Guangdong
0.61783827 Igorot




Distance to: ChrisFather
0.36261866 Ket
0.39853140 Mala
0.42476063 Malayan
0.43521014 Selkup
0.46798013 Mongolian
0.52270082 Thai
0.54310382 Yakut
0.54416243 Malay
0.55901619 Mongola
0.56120522 Indonesian_Bali
0.56404870 Chukchi
0.56439116 Koryak
0.57116465 Indonesian_Java
0.57791766 Oroqen
0.57824888 Han_Shanxi
0.57888691 Lahu
0.58159669 Kinh_Vietnam
0.58348780 Han_Henan
0.58639879 Japanese
0.58791988 Han_Shandong
0.58817916 Han_Shanghai
0.58887024 Han_Sichuan
0.59353716 Korean
0.59397536 Han_Chongqing
0.59470994 Han_Hubei
0.59485999 Han_Fujian
0.59503054 Han_Jiangsu
0.59577210 Han_Zhejiang
0.59647230 Han_Guangdong
0.61000701 Igorot

[Zoro]

This is insane...I didn't expect 20,000-30,000 years of separation of Natives from Asiatics can cause much genetic divergence... (PYF_150 and Botocudo are Polynesians btw). Also Botai is an ancient group called Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers from Kazakhstan.

Distance to: Surui

0.45144807 Chukchi
0.50381745 Koryak
0.53161020 KAZ_Botai
0.55156500 Altaian
0.55528829 Yukagir_Tundra
0.55907543 Selkup
0.55926897 Kazakh
0.56170177 Ket
0.57265833 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.57328313 Hazara
0.58726398 Sherpa
0.58932856 JPN_Jomon
0.59467301 Japanese
0.60032053 Aeta
0.60447868 Onge
0.61563785 Malay
0.61677137 BRA_Botocudo
0.61727473 Udmurt
0.61745215 Saami
0.62104489 Bonda
0.62442478 Dai
0.62713080 PYF_150BP
0.62957509 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.63061934 Luzon
0.64498427 Paniya




Distance to: Bengali_Bangladesh
0.28279072 Udmurt
0.30187513 Mari
0.30933370 Saami
0.33035752 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35516587 Hungarian
0.35922458 Italian_Tuscany
0.36287571 Irish
0.36360128 Swedish
0.37292777 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40636844 Sardinian
0.52731704 WHG


First you have to realize that the population history of Siberia is very complicated and there has been several population replacements there since the 1st humans appeared in NE Siberia around 45,000 years ago during the time of large mammals such as mammoths. Those 1st Siberians who are known as Ancient Northern Siberians (ANS, 2 genomes from Yana) predated ANE and there is no living person anywhere with significant ancestry from them. Neither do any of the ancients of Siberia show much ancestry from them except for the Paleo-Siberians who carried around 15% ancestry related to ANS. Their Y-DNA was P which is ancestral to Q, M, R, N and their MtDNA is basal U.

What I believe happened is that the Last Glacial Maximum around 20kya dessimated them and the few surviving ones made it south were absorbed by the Paleo Siberians.

ANS had ancestry from both Ancient West Eurasians such as Sungir and the like and Ancient E Eurasian such as Tianyuan although they had more ancestry from AWE. Similar to Malta Boy except more AEE shifted.

The fact that Paleo Siberians form about 75% of ancestry of Native Americans (the rest being ANE related) and harbor ANS and the 3rd generation Siberians of today don't carry this PS ancestry will cause them to be genetically very differentiated from modern E Asians. The only E Asians and Siberians that I know of that carry this PS ancestry are Koryaks (about 30%), Even, and Ket (but Ket also has some Afanasievo related also which would push them further away). That's why you see Koryaks closer to Native Americans. The other reason Koryaks are closer is because they have a little Clovis Native American from the back to Siberia migration. However Koryaks carry more E Asian than Native Americans.

I'll continue this later if i have time.

[samario]

No need to insult.

Of couse i know that. But Indians are not considered as West Eurasian group. They are only 45-55% West Eurasian on average similar to Horn Africans like Ethiopians, Somalians. The remaining of their genes is AASI (and somtimes East Asian admix in the cases of Bengalis and some groups that live close to SE Asia or Himalayas like Nepalis) which i thought would make them very distant and diverged from West Eurasians.

If you think Indians are West Eurasian pop, then you must see Horn Africans as West Eurasian group and not a mixed intermediate population.

I would imagine there's not a single pattern regarding West Eurasian ancestry in India. Maybe those from the north are more West Eurasian on average.

There was any sort of ancient migration from the Indian subcontinent into Europe or West Asia? I get some minimal South Asian when I run my kit on GEDmatch (usually a tad below 1%). Odd.

It's really cool that Native Americans descend from Siberians.

[Maguzanci]

First you have to realize that the population history of Siberia is very complicated and there has been several population replacements there since the 1st humans appeared in NE Siberia around 45,000 years ago during the time of large mammals such as mammoths. Those 1st Siberians who are known as Ancient Northern Siberians (ANS, 2 genomes from Yana) predated ANE and there is no living person anywhere with significant ancestry from them. Neither do any of the ancients of Siberia show much ancestry from them except for the Paleo-Siberians who carried around 15% ancestry related to ANS. Their Y-DNA was P which is ancestral to Q, M, R, N and their MtDNA is basal U.

What I believe happened is that the Last Glacial Maximum around 20kya dessimated them and the few surviving ones made it south were absorbed by the Paleo Siberians.

ANS had ancestry from both Ancient West Eurasians such as Sungir and the like and Ancient E Eurasian such as Tianyuan although they had more ancestry from AWE. Similar to Malta Boy except more AEE shifted.

The fact that Paleo Siberians form about 75% of ancestry of Native Americans (the rest being ANE related) and harbor ANS and the 3rd generation Siberians of today don't carry this PS ancestry will cause them to be genetically very differentiated from modern E Asians. The only E Asians and Siberians that I know of that carry this PS ancestry are Koryaks (about 30%), Even, and Ket (but Ket also has some Afanasievo related also which would push them further away). That's why you see Koryaks closer to Native Americans. The other reason Koryaks are closer is because they have a little Clovis Native American from the back to Siberia migration. However Koryaks carry more E Asian than Native Americans.

I'll continue this later if i have time.


Thank you for educating me about this. So Yana is the ancestor of ANE? Who are the Paleo-Siberians: are they a mix of East and West Eurasians?

I see. ANS was mostly ancient West Eurasian? I heard another user here also told me their West Eurasian is mostly related to Gravettians/Paleo Europeans. How did they get to Siberia from Europe in the first place? So Native Americans are around 75% Paleo-Siberian and 25% ANE?

I have learned that Native Americans are around 60-70% East Eurasian and 30-40% ANE. This is true right? And that means they are around 23-30% West Eurasian since ANE is 3/4 ancient West Eurasian-related (Sunghir, Gravettian/PaleoEuropean) and 1/4 basal East Eurasian?

Also should Natives actually plot with Turkic Siberians/Central Asians like Altaian, Khakass, Kyrgyz on a 3-axis, East Eurasia-West Eurasia-Africa PCA plot due to having similar amounts of East and West ancestries like the aforementioned groups? I noticed that in many PCAs, Natives are often plot a lot more further East, only slightly western of where Mongolians plot. Does the reason they plot further East in PCAs has to do with extreme genetic drift?

Like in this PCA based on ANE K6 calculator, the Native Americans (Clovis and Pima) seem to be plot where they should be: close to Altaian and Kyrgyz:
https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1601189507666.png

Please continue when you have time..I really appreciated you teaching me about this.

[Maguzanci]

I would imagine there's not a single pattern regarding West Eurasian ancestry in India. Maybe those from the north are more West Eurasian on average.

There was any sort of ancient migration from the Indian subcontinent into Europe or West Asia? I get some minimal South Asian when I run my kit on GEDmatch (usually a tad below 1%). Odd.

It's really cool that Native Americans descend from Siberians.

There are indeed several waves of migrations that brings West Eurasian ancestry to the Indian subcontinent. Its mostly those from the Northwest/Northern part of India/Pakistan such as Kashmiris, Sindhis, Jatts, Khatris, Rors or from upper castes such as Kshatriyas, Brahmins (the upper castes live all over the country, not only the Northwest) who are more West Eurasian on average. Most Indians including those from the North are still rather in the 45-55% range of Western ancestry.

There are even Indians who barely have any West Eurasian like the Austroasiatic tribes of East India (they are mainly an Australoid+Mongoloid mix plus some minor Caucasoid), or those who are literally zero like the Mongoloids of the Northeast and Himalayan regions and the Andamanese tribes. Although these groups are a very tiny minority of India's population.

Yup, its even more interesting that they are a literally an ancient "mixed race" group being a mix of ancient East Eurasians and Ancient North Eurasian (much more related to West Eurasians than to East Eurasians).

[Zoro]

Thank you for educating me about this. So Yana is the ancestor of ANE? Who are the Paleo-Siberians: are they a mix of East and West Eurasians?

I see. ANS was mostly ancient West Eurasian? I heard another user here also told me their West Eurasian is mostly related to Gravettians/Paleo Europeans. How did they get to Siberia from Europe in the first place? So Native Americans are around 75% Paleo-Siberian and 25% ANE?



I'll give you a summary of the chain of events:

1- Ancestors of W and E Eurasians split around 45kya thus forming a Basal W Eurasian and Basal E Eurasian

2- Ancient N Siberians (ANS) (Yana) split from Early W Eurasians (EWS) (Kostenki-UP, Sunghir-UP, Vestonice-UP, El Miron-UP) around 38kya

3- ANS gets a pulse(s) of around 30% Basal E Eurasian admixture (related to Tianyuan-UP) around 35-38kya. That's why ANE is E Eurasian shifted compared to Ancient West Eurasians

4- ANE descends from ANS

5- Ancient Paleo-Siberians (AP) and [ ancestors of NeoSiberians (Even) and E Asians (Han) ] who are all on the E Eurasian branch split from each other around 27kya. That's why the E Eurasian in Native Americans is old and not Han like.

6- AP splits from Ancient Beringians (AB) around 23kya. AFTER this split both AP and AB get a pulse of about 17% ghost ANS


7- NeoSiberians (Even) split from E Asians (Han) around 20kya. Siberian in E Europeans is NeoSiberian related and not PaleoSiberian.

8- NS get a pulse of about 4% PS


Here are some proportions of PS, NS, and E Asian

https://i.imgur.com/76eA8Zr.jpg

[Zoro]

20-25% W Eurasian related would be a fair estimate for Pre-Colonial Native Americans. Presently W Eurasian in many Native Americans would be higher due to recent admixture with Europeans

[Maguzanci]

20-25% W Eurasian related would be a fair estimate for Pre-Colonial Native Americans. Presently W Eurasian in many Native Americans would be higher due to recent admixture with Europeans

Interesting. So isn't somewhere from 23-30% West Eurasian for Natives due to their 30-40% ANE? Or the ANE estimates for them are not accurate?

In an East to West Eurasia to Africa PCA,, would they plot somewhere between Altaians and Kyrgyz due to similar amounts of West Eurasian ancestry?

Are these PCAs accurate where they should plot?

For example, does this PCA based on the Gedrosia ANE K6 exhibits well where Native Americans are located genetically (Credits to the user Petalpusher from TA for creating the PCA)?

https://i.imgur.com/PblLwBj.jpg


And also this PCA: Totonacs are an Amerindian ethnic group from Southern Mexico. The PCA comes from this DNA study. The Bolivians according to this paper has some European admixture while the Totonacs are 100%/close to 100% Amerindian. CHB/JPT are Han Chinese from Beijing, Japanese from Tokyo while CEU are Americans of European descent from Utah and YRI aer Yorubas fo West Africa. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225046043_Genetic_analysis_of_ancestry_admixture_a nd_selection_in_Bolivian_and_Totonac_populations_o f_the_New_World

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/PCA_plot_of_Totonacs_and_Bolivians.png


Also one more: This PCA from the Malaspinas DNA paper on Botocudo genomes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214012743
https://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/botocudo-not-admixed.png

[Maguzanci]

I'll give you a summary of the chain of events:

1- Ancestors of W and E Eurasians split around 45kya thus forming a Basal W Eurasian and Basal E Eurasian

2- Ancient N Siberians (ANS) (Yana) split from Early W Eurasians (EWS) (Kostenki-UP, Sunghir-UP, Vestonice-UP, El Miron-UP) around 38kya

3- ANS gets a pulse(s) of around 30% Basal E Eurasian admixture (related to Tianyuan-UP) around 35-38kya. That's why ANE is E Eurasian shifted compared to Ancient West Eurasians

4- ANE descends from ANS

5- Ancient Paleo-Siberians (AP) and [ ancestors of NeoSiberians (Even) and E Asians (Han) ] who are all on the E Eurasian branch split from each other around 27kya. That's why the E Eurasian in Native Americans is old and not Han like.

6- AP splits from Ancient Beringians (AB) around 23kya. AFTER this split both AP and AB get a pulse of about 17% ghost ANS


7- NeoSiberians (Even) split from E Asians (Han) around 20kya. Siberian in E Europeans is NeoSiberian related and not PaleoSiberian.

8- NS get a pulse of about 4% PS


Here are some proportions of PS, NS, and E Asian

https://i.imgur.com/76eA8Zr.jpg


Thanks for explaining the summary of the events.

So how much total ANE do Native Americans actually have? What's the closest modern population to the E Eurasian ancestors of Natives? Do Amazonians have highest ANE/West Eurasian despite looking phenotypically much more Asiatic than North American, Mexican, Central American and Andean, Southern Cone tribes?

[Parça do Neymar]

Aren't Native Americans like 30% ANE? "Ancient North Eurasians" and "West Eurasian" are more closely related to one another than either one is to "East Eurasian".

[Maguzanci]

Aren't Native Americans like 30% ANE? "Ancient North Eurasians" and "West Eurasian" are more closely related to one another than either one is to "East Eurasian".

Yes, they range from 30 to 40% ANE. And yes, but I have heard from some genetic experts on this and another forum that Ancient North Eurasian is actually a very ancient West Eurasian group with some Basal East Eurasian (related to Tianyuan or Onge than to modern Mongoloids).

[Sovanz]

Thank you for educating me about this. So Yana is the ancestor of ANE? Who are the Paleo-Siberians: are they a mix of East and West Eurasians?

I see. ANS was mostly ancient West Eurasian? I heard another user here also told me their West Eurasian is mostly related to Gravettians/Paleo Europeans. How did they get to Siberia from Europe in the first place? So Native Americans are around 75% Paleo-Siberian and 25% ANE?

I have learned that Native Americans are around 60-70% East Eurasian and 30-40% ANE. This is true right? And that means they are around 23-30% West Eurasian since ANE is 3/4 ancient West Eurasian-related (Sunghir, Gravettian/PaleoEuropean) and 1/4 basal East Eurasian?

Also should Natives actually plot with Turkic Siberians/Central Asians like Altaian, Khakass, Kyrgyz on a 3-axis, East Eurasia-West Eurasia-Africa PCA plot due to having similar amounts of East and West ancestries like the aforementioned groups? I noticed that in many PCAs, Natives are often plot a lot more further East, only slightly western of where Mongolians plot. Does the reason they plot further East in PCAs has to do with extreme genetic drift?

Like in this PCA based on ANE K6 calculator, the Native Americans (Clovis and Pima) seem to be plot where they should be: close to Altaian and Kyrgyz:
https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1601189507666.png

Please continue when you have time..I really appreciated you teaching me about this.


I'll give you a summary of the chain of events:

1- Ancestors of W and E Eurasians split around 45kya thus forming a Basal W Eurasian and Basal E Eurasian

2- Ancient N Siberians (ANS) (Yana) split from Early W Eurasians (EWS) (Kostenki-UP, Sunghir-UP, Vestonice-UP, El Miron-UP) around 38kya

3- ANS gets a pulse(s) of around 30% Basal E Eurasian admixture (related to Tianyuan-UP) around 35-38kya. That's why ANE is E Eurasian shifted compared to Ancient West Eurasians

4- ANE descends from ANS

5- Ancient Paleo-Siberians (AP) and [ ancestors of NeoSiberians (Even) and E Asians (Han) ] who are all on the E Eurasian branch split from each other around 27kya. That's why the E Eurasian in Native Americans is old and not Han like.

6- AP splits from Ancient Beringians (AB) around 23kya. AFTER this split both AP and AB get a pulse of about 17% ghost ANS


7- NeoSiberians (Even) split from E Asians (Han) around 20kya. Siberian in E Europeans is NeoSiberian related and not PaleoSiberian.

8- NS get a pulse of about 4% PS


Here are some proportions of PS, NS, and E Asian

https://i.imgur.com/76eA8Zr.jpg


20-25% W Eurasian related would be a fair estimate for Pre-Colonial Native Americans. Presently W Eurasian in many Native Americans would be higher due to recent admixture with Europeans

This.