Theory : coastal north africans don't have any SSA ancestry

[Hamilcar]

or it's very low. But how ?

when it comes to the west african ancestry it's due to shared alleles that goes back to the time when iberomaurusians spread their genes southward :




Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full

strangely this "12.5±1.1%" is very similar to the amount of SSA coastal NAs score on gedmatch.


As for the east african component it's also due to shared alleles (same source of ancestry) :


A single prehistoric migration of both the Maghrebi and the Ethio-Somali back into Africa is the most parsimonious hypothesis. That is, a common ancestral population migrated into northeast Africa through the Sinai and then split into two, with one branch continuing west across North Africa and the other heading south into the HOA

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004393

Also the capsian culture (originally from the Near East) that is found in both the maghreb and North-east africa (eburran culture). It can't be a coincidence :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capsian_culture



What do you think ?

[Leto]

I don't know. Nassbean, can you provide unmixed Moroccan and Algerian Berber kits/results for our Dodecad K12b spreadsheet? There is no way I can find them myself and the original references are horribly inaccurate. At least 10 unmixed samples for either country would suffice.

[Hamilcar]

I don't know. Nassbean, can you provide unmixed Moroccan and Algerian Berber kits/results for our Dodecad K12b spreadsheet? There is no way I can find them myself and the original references are horribly inaccurate. At least 10 unmixed samples for either country would suffice.

https://imgur.com/CuMkZ5Z
https://imgur.com/CICtUGV
https://imgur.com/7QkbiaB
https://imgur.com/k9i9CBL
https://imgur.com/XkErFI7
https://imgur.com/VdKxiAY
https://imgur.com/AYFWLJq
https://imgur.com/63OyiXa
https://imgur.com/CguqyIZ


That's all I found

[Leto]

https://imgur.com/CuMkZ5Z
https://imgur.com/CICtUGV
https://imgur.com/7QkbiaB
https://imgur.com/k9i9CBL
https://imgur.com/XkErFI7
https://imgur.com/VdKxiAY
https://imgur.com/AYFWLJq
https://imgur.com/63OyiXa
https://imgur.com/CguqyIZ


That's all I found
Are they all Moroccan or Algerian? Maybe creating a "Mixed_Berber" reference would not be a bad idea?

[Hamilcar]

Are they all Moroccan or Algerian? Maybe creating a "Mixed_Berber" reference would not be a bad idea?

yes some tunisians too

[Leto]

yes some tunisians too
Well, picking random kits with Maghrebi-sounding names wasn't my idea, to be honest. Thanks for the contribution but I'm not sure random people from three different countries belong together in one reference pop.

[Hamilcar]

Well, picking random kits with Maghrebi-sounding names wasn't my idea, to be honest. Thanks for the contribution but I'm not sure random people from three different countries belong together in one reference pop.

well if you look closely they don't diverge that much from each other and that's all I could found for dodecad k12b (I can classify them based on their country and delete the ones who have higher ssa but we'll end up with even less samples)

[Leto]

well if you look closely they don't diverge that much from each other and that's all I could found for dodecad k12b (I can classify them based on their country and delete the ones who have higher ssa but we'll end up with even less samples)
SSA is not the only thing. Some score elevated Gedrosia and North European which may indicate additional European ancestry. I don't want to add such individuals, that would be an average for nobody. Tunisians are said to have more European ancestry, so I would exclude them altogether.

[Hamilcar]

SSA is not the only thing. Some score elevated Gedrosia and North European which may indicate additional European ancestry. I don't want to add such individuals, that would be an average for nobody. Tunisians are said to have more European ancestry, so I would exclude them altogether.

What you're saying here doesn't make sense. You can't be a pure berber and at the same time be representative for your country (the purest berbers I've seen came from the souss region in Morocco and Chenini in Tunisia but they are both small groups).

The people I posted are totally representative and "average" for their respective countries and no overall tunisians don't have more Euro ancestry except some outliers

[Thunder_shock]

Well the African component in taforalt/iberomaurisian pulls them a lot closer to other ssa (taforalt 40% indigenous north african and plots like a mullato), so it's reasonable to assume that this african component is highly related to a sub saharan african population.

[Hamilcar]

Well the African component in taforalt/iberomaurisian pulls them a lot closer to other ssa (taforalt 40% indigenous north african and plots like a mullato), so it's reasonable to assume that this african component is highly related to a sub saharan african population.

that's actually false because ANA is on the same tree root as other Eurasian components and closer to eurasians than SSA (it's even more eurasian shifted than the most west eurasian north-east african populations like tigray for example)

[Thunder_shock]

that's actually false because ANA is on the same tree root as other Eurasian components and closer to eurasians than SSA (it's even more eurasian shifted than the most west eurasian north-east african populations like tigray for example)
What does that even mean? tigray are a mixed population, we dont have data for pure ana populations. We can only infer from observing populations who have partial ana admixture where a pure ana would plot. And like i said taforalt individuals plot close to Tigray despite being only 40% ana. Basically half ana individuals plot similar to mulattoes. So how do you explain that?

[Hamilcar]

What does that even mean? tigray are a mixed population, we dont have data for pure ana populations. We can only infer from observing populations who have partial ana admixture where a pure ana would plot. And like i said taforalt individuals plot close to Tigray despite being only 40% ana. Basically half ana individuals plot similar to mulattoes. So how do you explain that?

that simply means that the only thing that ANA and modern SSA share in common is probably their dark skin lol. ANA was probably craniometrically caucasoid (based on the morphological analyses of Iberomaurusians, ANA was morphologically distinct from sub-saharan africans (Cranio-Dentally) because if it was so it would have been obvious in the Iberomaurusians but it isn't. Moreover craniometrically taforalt was similar to late pleistocene europeans) and closer to other eurasian populations than any SSA one ( Taforalt in PCA don't act the same as an usual mixed 45% SSA and 55% Eurasian populations , again its more Eurasian shifted)

Technically it can't be labelled as SSA because it's an indigenous north african population (population pre-OOA ,indigenous to North africa)

[Thunder_shock]

that simply means that the only thing that ANA and modern SSA share in common is probably their dark skin lol. ANA was probably craniometrically caucasoid (based on the morphological analyses of Iberomaurusians, ANA was morphologically distinct from sub-saharan africans (Cranio-Dentally) because if it was so it would have been obvious in the Iberomaurusians but it isn't. Moreover craniometrically taforalt was similar to late pleistocene europeans) and closer to other eurasian populations than any SSA one ( Taforalt in PCA don't act the same as an usual mixed 45% SSA and 55% Eurasian populations , again its more Eurasian shifted)

Technically it can't be labelled as SSA because it's an indigenous north african population (population pre-OOA ,indigenous to North africa)
It's only slightly more eurasian shifted than an actual mulatto population with similar admixture (west eurasian + ssa).
I wouldnt put too much importance on craniometric data because you get weird results with mixed populations (as in results wont be consistent with genetic data).

[Hamilcar]

It's only slightly more eurasian shifted than an actual mulatto population with similar admixture (west eurasian + ssa).
I wouldnt put too much importance on craniometric data because you get weird results with mixed populations (as in results wont be consistent with genetic data).

even with these arguments ANA was still not similar to any non-caucasoid ssa populations so why putting it in the same bag as SSA ?

Yoruba ancestry is deeper than the regular erytrean component for example (they only share the same geographical position that's it)

Now the main point of my topic was about modern west african and east african ancestry among NAs You should debate about this not about an obscure ghost population hided inside the taforalt component that only composes 1/3 of NAs ancestry

[Thunder_shock]

even with these arguments ANA was still not similar to any non-caucasoid ssa populations so why putting it in the same bag as SSA ?

Yoruba ancestry is deeper than the regular erytrean component for example (they only share the same geographical position that's it)

Now the main point of my topic was about modern west african and east african ancestry among NAs You should debate about this not about an obscure ghost population hided inside the taforalt component that only composes 1/3 of NAs ancestry
atm for scientists ana is a mysterious lineage and we dont know about the different african lineages that coalesced to form modern ssa's or ana's.
I'm only commenting on where this component clusters on a global PCA.

[Hamilcar]

atm for scientists ana is a mysterious lineage and we dont know about the different african lineages that coalesced to form modern ssa's or ana's.
I'm only commenting on where this component clusters on a global PCA.

Well I suppose you already know PCA for these kind of archaic populations can be quite misleading especially in the case of taforalt we still need more datas (let alone ANA)

[SharpFork]

I'm not sure if the argument makes sense, if we already have Taforalt and Mar_EN as references and North Africans score more SSA with them doesn't that mean that the calculators find SSA ancestry, which you yourself argue is different from ANA, to be right type of indigenous African ancestry in North Africans?

Sure those same SSA could have 1/8 ancestry from Taforalt but at this point is so deep I don't get why this would invalidate the entire of SSA ancestry in North Africa.

Edit: Also modern North Africans accept more SSA even when having ancient north African samples already admixed with ENF and Levant, the implication is clear to me.

[Hamilcar]

I'm not sure if the argument makes sense, if we already have Taforalt and Mar_EN as references and North Africans score more SSA with them doesn't that mean that the calculators find SSA ancestry, which you yourself argue is different from ANA, to be right type of indigenous African ancestry in North Africans?

Sure those same SSA could have 1/8 ancestry from Taforalt but at this point is so deep I don't get why this would invalidate the entire of SSA ancestry in North Africa.

Edit: Also modern North Africans accept more SSA even when having ancient north African samples already admixed with ENF and Levant, the implication is clear to me.

reread the title pls I'm not saying all north africans only coastal north africans especially the endemic groups from these regions like riffians or kabyles. Taforalt/MAR_EN predates the capsian culture and these two populations are more southern shifted than modern NAs so my argument makes sense

Deep or not yoruba are still used as proxies in many calculators and studies

and that's totally false coastal NAs are not more ssa shifted than ancient north africans

[SharpFork]

Even when you literally use all ancient North African samples together you cannot remove West African ancestry, that ancestry is real:

https://i.imgur.com/q7sXStJ.png

[Hamilcar]

Even when you literally use all ancient North African samples together you cannot remove West African ancestry, that ancestry is real:



again coastal north africans and your model is terrible : putting mar_EN and taforalt while they are basically the same people (almost) ? Putting two copper age north africans that are similar to modern north africans ? Putting a levantine source and at the same time using natufian ?

and it seems you misunderstood my arguments I invite you to reread my first post

[Sora]

Interesting! But in the results Hamilcar posted in this page are generally 10%-20% SSA but the chart below shows 2%-14% SSA :confused:

https://i.imgur.com/GVkpiaT.png

[Hamilcar]

Interesting! But in the results Hamilcar posted in this page are generally 10%-20% SSA but the chart below shows 2%-14% SSA :confused:



the goal of this topic is to question this

[EternalYouth]

I think we can all agree that Berbers are the Whitest indigenous Africans.

[Leto]

What you're saying here doesn't make sense. You can't be a pure berber and at the same time be representative for your country (the purest berbers I've seen came from the souss region in Morocco and Chenini in Tunisia but they are both small groups).

The people I posted are totally representative and "average" for their respective countries and no overall tunisians don't have more Euro ancestry except some outliers
I've made an average but only you and another sample from that list were used.

What are your thoughts on the Mozabite Berbers? Are they like very indigenous or something?

[Hamilcar]

I've made an average but only you and another sample from that list were used.

What are your thoughts on the Mozabite Berbers? Are they like very indigenous or something?

they are also very "pure" but still their ssa is higher than soussi,chenini and north moroccans like me

[SharpFork]

again coastal north africans and your model is terrible : putting mar_EN and taforalt while they are basically the same people (almost) ? Putting two copper age north africans that are similar to modern north africans ? Putting a levantine source and at the same time using natufian ?

and it seems you misunderstood my arguments I invite you to reread my first post
So none of the subgroupings in my model is coastal? Really? In any case you are cherrypicking, try finding a model that somehow doesn't require a Subsaharan African reference.

[Hamilcar]

So none of the subgroupings in my model is coastal? Really? In any case you are cherrypicking, try finding a model that somehow doesn't require a Subsaharan African reference.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xL7PDV9frcudO/giphy.gif

You're definitely trolling me haha

[SharpFork]

You're definitely trolling me haha
Not sure what your problem is, but sure

[Hamilcar]

Not sure what your problem is, but sure

by "coastal" I meant people living in the "Tell" region of the maghreb which is the mediterranean coast.

Also no your model is totally inaccurate you don't mix such different pops like that It has nothing to do with me wanting to erase the ssa

that's good models for example (with ssa) :


Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
MAR_Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036



Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.0341921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
Corded_Ware_DEU,0.1298723,0.1110989,0.0568699,0.08 87606,0.0040622,0.0337179,0.001034,0.0025616,-0.0280402,-0.0395815,0.0003734,0.0023378,-0.0068234,-0.0095647,0.0240903,0.0072393,-0.0146682,0.0042188,-0.0020237,0.0046773,0.0029074,0.0013601,0.0060884, 0.0183278,8.38e-05
SSA,-0.915,0.1375,0.08,0.01,-0.01,0.0175,0.2525,-0.1925,-0.0515,0.0515,0.0155,-0.205,-0.065,0.001,0.005,-0.01,-0.002,-0.0425,0.01,-0.0075,-0.002,-0.0065,0,0.0085,-0.0115
SSA,-1.0455,0.155,0.0945,0.011,-0.0235,0.0465,-0.05,0.0775,-0.1425,0.0475,0.005,0.0075,0.0155,0.0075,0.005,-0.004,0.0095,0.0125,0.045,-0.0205,0.0065,0.025,-0.0175,0.005,-0.0075
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
Levant_PPNC,0.067156,0.168578,-0.023004,-0.150842,0.028621,-0.071954,-0.013866,-0.017999,0.077719,0.037905,0.006496,-0.013188,0.032705,-0.000275,-0.014929,0.008486,-0.000913,-0.007728,-0.013575,0.012381,-0.009982,0.01014,0.002958,0.003012,-0.001916
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036

yours was simply crap

[SharpFork]

Literally nothing changes:

https://i.imgur.com/uXN7s54.png

Is all this SSA fake? Or is somehow NONE of those populations "coastal"?

[Hamilcar]

Literally nothing changes:



Is all this SSA fake? Or is somehow NONE of those populations "coastal"?

Berber_Algeria is a sample from Timimoun (in the far south of Algeria where blacks live)
Moroccan_south doesn't need an explanation
Moroccan is mostly based on samples from casablancas
Algerian is ok
Berber_ERR are from errachidia which is not in the med region
Saharawi doesn't need an explanation
Berber_TIZ are from tiznit which is southern morocco
tunisian are not all from the tell region
mozabite are from central algeria in a desertic place
Berber_sen are from sened the hinterland of tunisia
Moroccan_North is ok
Berber_chen is from chenini south tunisia

And again reread my arguments in my first post