Southern Italians have no ancient Greek ancestry

[manu15151513]

It seems that the current genetic similarity is practically totally due not to the migration of Magna Graecia but to more remote common ancestors. These estimates suggest a lineage equal to or less than 0.3% on the autosomal genome for eastern Sicily, and being among the southern territories most linked to the ancient Greek gene flow, the southern Italians could be less than 0.1% ancient Greeks overall.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec2

"Greek colonization of South Italy and Sicily (Magna Graecia) was a defining event in European cultural history, although the demographic processes and genetic impacts involved have not been systematically investigated. Here, we combine high-resolution surveys of the variability at the uni- parentally inherited Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA in selected samples of putative source and recipient populations with forward-in-time simulations of alternative demographic models to detect signatures of that impact. Using a subset of haplotypes chosen to represent historical sources, we recover a clear signature of Greek ancestry in East Sicily compatible with the settlement from Euboea during the Archaic Period (eighth to fifth century BCE). We inferred moderate sex-bias in the numbers of individuals involved in the colonization: a few thousand breeding men and a few hundred breeding women were the estimated number of migrants. Last, we demonstrate that studies aimed at quantifying Hellenic genetic flow by the proportion of specific lineages surviving in present-day populations may be misleading. "


"To quantify the original demographic impact of the Greek settlers inferable from present-day Y chromosome variability, we explored two main census scenarios using a simulation-based approach. In the first scenario, high count, we based our model on the demographic estimates of Beloch, 18, 19 who suggested a census size of 1.35 million people for Sicily and of 3 million for Greece at the time of the Hellenic colonization in the Archaic Period. In the second scenario, low count, we modeled population size estimates that were smaller by an order of magnitude. 21 Nevertheless, the two scenarios have similar source / recipient effective size ratios (S / R). If we assume that the proportions of past Sicilian, Euboean and Peloponnese census and male (and female) effective population sizes is one-sixth of the current census size, we estimate a S / R of 3.65 for the high-count model and a S / R of 3.75 for the low-count model. Simulation results are reported on Figure 3 and Supplementary Table S8. When Considering Y-STR haplotypes, the observed DHS value between Euboea and East Sicily (0.5353) is compatible with an effective number of migrants ranging between 500 and 5000, clearly rejecting larger contributions (10 000), irrespective of the scenario considered. The DHS value obtained for hypervariable region I haplotypes (0.5995) supports an effective number of migrants between 500 and 1000, with larger contributions clearly excluded. When the NRY- and mtDNA-based estimates are paired according to the demographic model, the male-to-female migrant ratio ranged between 1: 1 and 2: 1 under a population growth model and between 2: 1 and 10: 1 under a constant population size model. "

[Benyzero]

Northern greeks have no southern italian ancestry

[manu15151513]

Here I discuss the genetic impact of all Greeks involved in migrating from the Greeks starting in the 8th century BC.

[Peterski]

It seems that the current genetic similarity is practically totally due not to the migration of Magna Graecia but to more remote common ancestors.

Then how do you explain that Bronze Age (before Greek colonization) Sicilians were very different than modern Sicilians?

I am talking for example about these samples (all of them were more West Med / less East Med than modern Sicilians):

Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10372
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10373
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3124
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3125
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3876
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3878
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I4109
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I7796

^^^
None of those samples was close to modern Sicilians, all of them were much more Sardinian/Corsican/Iberian-shifted.

Using Global25 scaled:


ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122,0.126344,0.165531,0.028661,-0.063631,0.06832,-0.034304,-0.001175,-0.002769,0.048881,0.087473,-0.001624,0.007493,-0.0333,-0.012661,-0.019815,0.005436,0.028163,0.007221,0.008673,-0.001126,-0.003244,-0.002226,-0.006532,-0.013014,-0.002275
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123,0.120652,0.165531,0.020365,-0.049419,0.049548,-0.020638,0.003055,-0.003461,0.036201,0.06761,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018583,-0.004954,-0.016558,-0.002254,0.011474,-0.003421,-0.004274,-0.015257,-0.00549,-0.00507,-0.009244,-0.014339,0.004431
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807,0.125205,0.188888,0.015085,-0.066861,0.051394,-0.045459,0,-0.004384,0.03661,0.078179,0.008282,0.015736,-0.016947,0.011973,-0.032437,-0.019491,0.008345,-0.01685,-0.000754,-0.004627,-0.012104,0.003833,-0.014666,-0.011568,-0.000958
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561,0.134311,0.147252,0.043369,-0.01292,0.04924,-0.007251,-0.00423,0.006231,0.03661,0.051026,-0.004222,0.008842,-0.023637,-0.006331,-0.009772,0.001193,0.004433,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.006878,-0.007736,0.005812,-0.005916,-0.013255,0.003592
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442,0.125205,0.167562,0.023381,-0.061047,0.053548,-0.026216,-0.00705,0.003231,0.032315,0.065058,0.007145,0.0118 39,-0.018434,-0.005092,-0.017915,-0.019358,-0.00678,-0.006208,0.003645,-0.007253,-0.004742,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.014219,0.004311
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878,0.119514,0.168578,0.015462,-0.063631,0.049855,-0.029562,-0.00799,-0.005538,0.026997,0.063054,-0.001786,0.01094,-0.019475,-0.011836,-0.019951,0.00053,0.011343,-0.003041,-0.00088,-0.003752,-0.009733,-0.003091,-0.006655,-0.014219,-0.005389
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125,0.120652,0.162485,0.004148,-0.065569,0.045239,-0.023985,0.00611,-0.004154,0.027611,0.069796,0.004384,0.015736,-0.024975,-0.009358,-0.023072,0.004641,0.029467,-0.00038,0.005154,-0.004002,0.001123,0.00371,-0.00986,-0.013496,-0.001557
ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109,0.118376,0.170609,0.007165,-0.076228,0.053856,-0.026495,-0.000705,-0.003231,0.030065,0.074717,-0.001137,0.017235,-0.024529,0.003578,-0.02253,-0.014717,-0.005215,-0.00114,0.004022,-0.015507,-0.009858,-0.00272,0.000986,-0.012411,0.005748

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109
0.04965037 Sardinian
0.08508219 French_Corsica
0.09017750 Italian_Lazio
0.09213939 Sicilian_East
0.09222862 Italian_Apulia

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125
0.04666990 Sardinian
0.07385622 French_Corsica
0.07954924 Italian_Lazio
0.08206636 Italian_Umbria
0.08365708 Italian_Campania

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.05491102 Sardinian
0.08114985 French_Corsica
0.08848051 Italian_Lazio
0.09046529 Italian_Apulia
0.09049673 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.03782324 Sardinian
0.06554333 French_Corsica
0.07313148 Italian_Lazio
0.07696144 Italian_Umbria
0.07903601 Italian_Tuscany

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05478154 Sardinian
0.05759252 French_Corsica
0.06271652 Italian_Lazio
0.06441082 Italian_Apulia
0.06478119 Sicilian_East

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442
0.03826780 Sardinian
0.06881276 French_Corsica
0.07897987 Italian_Lombardy
0.07979584 Italian_Lazio
0.08131195 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561
0.03979033 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04029966 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04193531 Spanish_Castello
0.04293118 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04320926 French_South

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807
0.06047338 Sardinian
0.09852818 French_Corsica
0.10543786 Italian_Lazio
0.10808443 Sicilian_East
0.10825288 Italian_Apulia

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124
0.04159034 Sardinian
0.05265708 French_Corsica
0.06018985 Italian_Lombardy
0.06168108 Italian_Bergamo
0.06529842 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123
0.02793917 Sardinian
0.05974928 French_Corsica
0.07272875 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.07284828 Italian_Lazio
0.07422434 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122
0.03812461 Sardinian
0.09521185 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.09578470 French_Corsica
0.10773453 Spanish_Murcia
0.10912516 Spanish_Castello

=====

Modern Sicilians are probably mostly descended from Greek and Phoenician settlers.

[Deusex99]

Sicilians are just regular South Italians with some North African dna (max 5%). Real Greek ancestry (Mycenaean like) is probably no more than 10/20%. The East Med input is related to Bronze Anatolians, while the rest is a mix of various Euro ancestries.

https://i.ibb.co/b15vqPw/0.png

[Peterski]

Sicilians are just regular South Italians with some North African dna (max 5%). Real Greek ancestry (Mycenaean like) is probably no more than 10/20%. The East Med input is related to Bronze Anatolians, while the rest is a mix of various Euro ancestries.

https://i.ibb.co/b15vqPw/0.png

But what happened to Bronze Age Sicilians?

[Dorian]

Cool story

[Deusex99]

But what happened to Bronze Age Sicilians?

Wiped out by plagues spread by Indo Europeans??? There weren't many of them to begin with.

[Peterski]

Wiped out by plagues spread by Indo Europeans???

By what Indo-Europeans? The first Indo-Europeans who came there were Greeks...

[manu15151513]

Then how do you explain that Bronze Age (before Greek colonization) Sicilians were very different than modern Sicilians?

I am talking for example about these samples (all of them were more West Med / less East Med than modern Sicilians):

Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10372
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10373
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3124
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3125
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3876
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3878
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I4109
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I7796

^^^
None of those samples was close to modern Sicilians, all of them were much more Sardinian/Corsican/Iberian-shifted.

Using Global25 scaled:


ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122,0.126344,0.165531,0.028661,-0.063631,0.06832,-0.034304,-0.001175,-0.002769,0.048881,0.087473,-0.001624,0.007493,-0.0333,-0.012661,-0.019815,0.005436,0.028163,0.007221,0.008673,-0.001126,-0.003244,-0.002226,-0.006532,-0.013014,-0.002275
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123,0.120652,0.165531,0.020365,-0.049419,0.049548,-0.020638,0.003055,-0.003461,0.036201,0.06761,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018583,-0.004954,-0.016558,-0.002254,0.011474,-0.003421,-0.004274,-0.015257,-0.00549,-0.00507,-0.009244,-0.014339,0.004431
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807,0.125205,0.188888,0.015085,-0.066861,0.051394,-0.045459,0,-0.004384,0.03661,0.078179,0.008282,0.015736,-0.016947,0.011973,-0.032437,-0.019491,0.008345,-0.01685,-0.000754,-0.004627,-0.012104,0.003833,-0.014666,-0.011568,-0.000958
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561,0.134311,0.147252,0.043369,-0.01292,0.04924,-0.007251,-0.00423,0.006231,0.03661,0.051026,-0.004222,0.008842,-0.023637,-0.006331,-0.009772,0.001193,0.004433,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.006878,-0.007736,0.005812,-0.005916,-0.013255,0.003592
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442,0.125205,0.167562,0.023381,-0.061047,0.053548,-0.026216,-0.00705,0.003231,0.032315,0.065058,0.007145,0.0118 39,-0.018434,-0.005092,-0.017915,-0.019358,-0.00678,-0.006208,0.003645,-0.007253,-0.004742,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.014219,0.004311
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878,0.119514,0.168578,0.015462,-0.063631,0.049855,-0.029562,-0.00799,-0.005538,0.026997,0.063054,-0.001786,0.01094,-0.019475,-0.011836,-0.019951,0.00053,0.011343,-0.003041,-0.00088,-0.003752,-0.009733,-0.003091,-0.006655,-0.014219,-0.005389
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125,0.120652,0.162485,0.004148,-0.065569,0.045239,-0.023985,0.00611,-0.004154,0.027611,0.069796,0.004384,0.015736,-0.024975,-0.009358,-0.023072,0.004641,0.029467,-0.00038,0.005154,-0.004002,0.001123,0.00371,-0.00986,-0.013496,-0.001557
ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109,0.118376,0.170609,0.007165,-0.076228,0.053856,-0.026495,-0.000705,-0.003231,0.030065,0.074717,-0.001137,0.017235,-0.024529,0.003578,-0.02253,-0.014717,-0.005215,-0.00114,0.004022,-0.015507,-0.009858,-0.00272,0.000986,-0.012411,0.005748

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109
0.04965037 Sardinian
0.08508219 French_Corsica
0.09017750 Italian_Lazio
0.09213939 Sicilian_East
0.09222862 Italian_Apulia

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125
0.04666990 Sardinian
0.07385622 French_Corsica
0.07954924 Italian_Lazio
0.08206636 Italian_Umbria
0.08365708 Italian_Campania

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.05491102 Sardinian
0.08114985 French_Corsica
0.08848051 Italian_Lazio
0.09046529 Italian_Apulia
0.09049673 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.03782324 Sardinian
0.06554333 French_Corsica
0.07313148 Italian_Lazio
0.07696144 Italian_Umbria
0.07903601 Italian_Tuscany

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05478154 Sardinian
0.05759252 French_Corsica
0.06271652 Italian_Lazio
0.06441082 Italian_Apulia
0.06478119 Sicilian_East

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442
0.03826780 Sardinian
0.06881276 French_Corsica
0.07897987 Italian_Lombardy
0.07979584 Italian_Lazio
0.08131195 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561
0.03979033 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04029966 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04193531 Spanish_Castello
0.04293118 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04320926 French_South

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807
0.06047338 Sardinian
0.09852818 French_Corsica
0.10543786 Italian_Lazio
0.10808443 Sicilian_East
0.10825288 Italian_Apulia

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124
0.04159034 Sardinian
0.05265708 French_Corsica
0.06018985 Italian_Lombardy
0.06168108 Italian_Bergamo
0.06529842 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123
0.02793917 Sardinian
0.05974928 French_Corsica
0.07272875 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.07284828 Italian_Lazio
0.07422434 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122
0.03812461 Sardinian
0.09521185 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.09578470 French_Corsica
0.10773453 Spanish_Murcia
0.10912516 Spanish_Castello

=====

Modern Sicilians are probably mostly descended from Greek and Phoenician settlers.


About 5000-5500 years ago groups of people migrated from the Caucasus to the areas around Turkey and the coastal east and about 3500-4000 years ago they migrated to Southern Italy and then spread to the rest of the country, greatly increasing the East Med and CHG to the detriment of the Neolithic one in the Sardinian sense, which was not essentially affected by this latter migratory flow. This is the almost exclusive cause of the spread of the paternal haplogroup J2a. Haplogroups and other evidence point to very strong reproductive isolation after indoeuropean expansion, so the more parsimonious explanation absolutely negates the impact of those groups. Haven't read the thread? It practically seems far-fetched.

[TheMaestro]

Your photos look creepier than Mortimers.

[manu15151513]

Your photos look creepier than Mortimers.

You are right.

[Peterski]

About 5000-5500 years ago groups of people migrated from the Caucasus to the areas around Turkey and the coastal east and about 3500-4000 years ago they migrated to Southern Italy and then spread to the rest of the country, greatly increasing the East Med and CHG to the detriment of the Neolithic one in the Sardinian sense, which was not essentially affected by this latter migratory flow. This is the almost exclusive cause of the spread of the paternal haplogroup J2a. Haplogroups and other evidence point to very strong reproductive isolation after indoeuropean expansion, so the more parsimonious explanation absolutely negates the impact of those groups. Haven't read the thread? It practically seems far-fetched.

Those Bronze Age Sicilians are much younger than 4000 years. They lived immediately before the Greek colonization of Sicily:

https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41559-020-1102-0/MediaObjects/41559_2020_1102_MOESM1_ESM.pdf

Sample = age according to the link above

I3876 = C14 dated to 1071-902 calBCE
I10372 = 1374-1131 calBCE (3005±20 BP)
I10373 = 1450-1150 BCE (the son of I3878)
I3878 = 1379-1196 calBCE (3015±20 BP)
I3125 = 1612-1506 calBCE (3275±20 BP)
I4109 = 1631-1509 calBCE (3300±25 BP)
I7796 = 1879-1691 calBCE (3455±25 BP)
I3124 = 1948-1777 calBCE (3545±20 BP)

^^^
You wrote that Greek started migrating to Sicily in the 8th century BC, so I3876 is not much older than the arrival of Greeks:


Greeks involved in migrating from the Greeks starting in the 8th century BC.

[TheMaestro]

You are right.

No, my name is TheMaestro

[TheMaestro]

You are right.

No, my name is TheMaestro

[Peterski]

Here is what these Ancient Sicilian samples score in Eurogenes K36 (post modern South Italian results for comparison):

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3876
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0.84
Armenian 2.11
Basque 4.63
Central African 0
Central Euro 1.76
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 5.7
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 15.57
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 10.98
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 29.3
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 5.52
North African 2.06
North Atlantic 3.33
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 1.67
West Med 16.54

=====

Ancient Sicilian I10372
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 5.53
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 1.41
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 19.73
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 15.14
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 35.17
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 23.02

=====

Ancient Sicilian I10373
Amerindian 0
Arabian 1.98
Armenian 2.77
Basque 2.96
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 1.93
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 14.08
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 24.07
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 30.14
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0.59
North African 0.85
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 20.64

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3878
Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.71
Armenian 6.71
Basque 2.04
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 3.42
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 12.24
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 3.54
Iberian 18.13
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 26.39
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 1.87
North African 1
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 21.94

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3125
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 1.81
Basque 2
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 5.12
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 14.22
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 15.54
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 32.66
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 6.93
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 21.71

=====

Ancient Sicilian I4109
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 1.42
Basque 0
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 3
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 12.62
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 15.73
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 36.35
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 5.15
North African 1.84
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 23.89

=====

Ancient Sicilian I7796
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0.35
Armenian 0.7
Basque 0
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 0.05
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 18.17
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 0
Iberian 25.28
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 26.25
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 0.01
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0.01
South Central Asian 0.01
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0.01
West Caucasian 5.02
West Med 24.28

=====

Ancient Sicilian I3124
Amerindian 0
Arabian 2.12
Armenian 0
Basque 3.72
Central African 0
Central Euro 0
East African 0
East Asian 0.17
East Balkan 1.12
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 0
East Med 11.57
Eastern Euro 0
Fennoscandian 0
French 2.51
Iberian 28.73
Indo-Chinese 0.06
Italian 34.35
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 0
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 1.69
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 13.97

=====

[Peterski]

Eurogenes K13:


AncientSicilian_I10372,24.61,0,42.35,0,32.25,0.78, 0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I10373,20.05,1.91,44.6,0,30.64,2.0 4,0,0.76,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3124,29.94,3.22,38.03,0,25.21,2.8 ,0,0.3,0,0,0.5,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3125,21.35,0,41.69,1.19,32.23,2.6 9,0,0.53,0,0,0.32,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3876,22.21,3.82,35.95,3.19,31.27, 2.64,0,0.13,0,0,0.57,0,0.22
AncientSicilian_I3878,23.91,0,41.45,0.37,29.21,4.9 5,0,0.11,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I4109,18.64,0,44.84,1.67,28.82,5.7 2,0,0.32,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I7796,21,0,42.68,0,32.43,2.5,0,0,0 ,1.39,0,0,0

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I7796
11.52736744 Sardinia
14.52264439 Sardinian
20.90261228 FrenchCorsica
24.49838158 West_Sicilian
24.59187264 Moroccan_Jew

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I4109
9.23414858 Sardinia
11.68246121 Sardinian
21.65917588 FrenchCorsica
25.32858069 West_Sicilian
26.00318634 Lazio

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3878
9.27732720 Sardinia
13.50091108 Sardinian
18.12545172 FrenchCorsica
22.72793215 Tuscan
23.01950695 West_Sicilian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3876
13.06826691 FrenchCorsica
14.78495181 Sardinia
16.26220465 West_Sicilian
16.95231548 Lazio
17.03654601 Tuscan

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3125
11.61199380 Sardinia
14.98889589 Sardinian
19.64008147 FrenchCorsica
23.07483694 West_Sicilian
23.31171379 Moroccan_Jew

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3124
11.50652858 Sardinia
13.56817600 FrenchCorsica
16.31971201 Sardinian
17.05773725 Lombardy
18.15685821 Spanish_Andalucia

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10373
9.44177949 Sardinia
11.94877400 Sardinian
21.19610813 FrenchCorsica
25.42991742 West_Sicilian
25.83756180 Lazio

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10372
11.25767738 Sardinia
14.68303443 Sardinian
20.04231274 FrenchCorsica
24.50861073 Tuscan
24.65350685 West_Sicilian

=====

Eurogenes K15:


AncientSicilian_I10372,1.46,29.79,0,0,36.96,2.37,2 7.57,1.84,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I10373,3.45,21.21,4.07,0,39.44,2.2 1,26.13,3.09,0,0.4,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3124,9.9,25.69,5.12,0,34.19,0,21. 06,3.82,0,0.11,0,0,0.11,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3125,8.78,16.27,1.43,0,37.9,3.74, 28,3.36,0,0.32,0,0,0.2,0,0
AncientSicilian_I3876,4.86,21.86,5.56,0,31.2,5.94, 25.55,4.57,0,0,0,0,0.35,0,0.12
AncientSicilian_I3878,7.29,21.65,0.55,0,37.08,2.56 ,25.41,5.45,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I4109,1.27,22.57,0.63,0,40.33,3.66 ,24.58,6.95,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
AncientSicilian_I7796,3.33,21.99,0,0,38.79,4.53,25 .99,4.21,0,0,0,1.17,0,0,0

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I7796
13.93344179 Sardinian
23.94542963 West_Sicilian
24.35632361 Tuscan
25.32865373 Algerian_Jewish
25.77625652 North_Italian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I4109
12.89108995 Sardinian
26.18503771 West_Sicilian
26.44064107 Tuscan
27.36827178 Algerian_Jewish
27.58737755 North_Italian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3878
14.44253440 Sardinian
21.69891472 Tuscan
22.09934841 West_Sicilian
22.66344634 North_Italian
24.42764213 Algerian_Jewish

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3876
15.97820390 West_Sicilian
16.45841122 Tuscan
18.66615922 South_Italian
18.96693966 North_Italian
19.41084748 East_Sicilian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3125
16.23572912 Sardinian
22.09341305 West_Sicilian
22.35378715 Tuscan
22.83426811 Algerian_Jewish
23.39781186 South_Italian

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I3124
15.98435172 Sardinian
17.59775270 North_Italian
17.65960645 Spanish_Andalucia
19.21933922 Tuscan
19.67041687 Spanish_Valencia

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10373
12.61784054 Sardinian
24.67511499 West_Sicilian
24.72213179 Tuscan
25.75110677 North_Italian
26.26147368 Algerian_Jewish

Distance to: AncientSicilian_I10372
18.23174704 Sardinian
26.19780907 West_Sicilian
26.54679265 Spanish_Andalucia
26.76649585 Tuscan
27.29980586 North_Italian

[Ajeje Brazorf]

It seems that the current genetic similarity is practically totally due not to the migration of Magna Graecia but to more remote common ancestors. These estimates suggest a lineage equal to or less than 0.3% on the autosomal genome for eastern Sicily, and being among the southern territories most linked to the ancient Greek gene flow, the southern Italians could be less than 0.1% ancient Greeks overall.

The ethno-genesis of southern Italians is very recent, so you can also throw away all the narrative of remote connections and so on. The Roman-age Levantine contribution is much greater than the ancient Greek one, but it makes no sense to say that the latter is less than 0.1%. Instead, it is more realistic to say that the ancient Greek contribution is there, but it is not a predominant part being less than 25% in the average southern Italian.


https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124#Sec2

"To quantify the original demographic impact of the Greek settlers inferable from present-day Y chromosome variability, we explored two main census scenarios using a simulation-based approach. In the first scenario, high count, we based our model on the demographic estimates of Beloch, 18, 19 who suggested a census size of 1.35 million people for Sicily and of 3 million for Greece at the time of the Hellenic colonization in the Archaic Period. In the second scenario, low count, we modeled population size estimates that were smaller by an order of magnitude. 21 Nevertheless, the two scenarios have similar source / recipient effective size ratios (S / R). If we assume that the proportions of past Sicilian, Euboean and Peloponnese census and male (and female) effective population sizes is one-sixth of the current census size, we estimate a S / R of 3.65 for the high-count model and a S / R of 3.75 for the low-count model. Simulation results are reported on Figure 3 and Supplementary Table S8. When Considering Y-STR haplotypes, the observed DHS value between Euboea and East Sicily (0.5353) is compatible with an effective number of migrants ranging between 500 and 5000, clearly rejecting larger contributions (10 000), irrespective of the scenario considered. The DHS value obtained for hypervariable region I haplotypes (0.5995) supports an effective number of migrants between 500 and 1000, with larger contributions clearly excluded. When the NRY- and mtDNA-based estimates are paired according to the demographic model, the male-to-female migrant ratio ranged between 1: 1 and 2: 1 under a population growth model and between 2: 1 and 10: 1 under a constant population size model. "

The impact of the ancient Greeks must be quantified with autosomal DNA, not with conjectures or Y chromosome.


About 5000-5500 years ago groups of people migrated from the Caucasus to the areas around Turkey and the coastal east and about 3500-4000 years ago they migrated to Southern Italy and then spread to the rest of the country, greatly increasing the East Med and CHG to the detriment of the Neolithic one in the Sardinian sense, which was not essentially affected by this latter migratory flow. This is the almost exclusive cause of the spread of the paternal haplogroup J2a. Haplogroups and other evidence point to very strong reproductive isolation after indoeuropean expansion, so the more parsimonious explanation absolutely negates the impact of those groups. Haven't read the thread? It practically seems far-fetched.

Brother, you don't know what you're talking about. The Sicilians of that period were only 6% CHG and the Levantine component was almost completely missing.

[Jana]

Don't see how can you prove that they don't. I'm pretty sure they do have significant ancient Greek ancestry.

[Deusex99]

The ethno-genesis of southern Italians is very recent, so you can also throw away all the narrative of remote connections and so on. The Roman-age Levantine contribution is much greater than the ancient Greek one

It's about the same and both are only slightly above 10%. Main components are Anatolian and Italo-Celtic. Moreover using a southern less Kavkaz shifted Anatolian source completely eliminates the Levantine admixture. That doesn't work for truly semitic admixed populations like the Jews.

https://iili.io/2Swo1S.jpg

https://iili.io/2SwT7e.jpg

[Leto]

TUR_Alalakh is not fully Middle Eastern?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

It's about the same and both are only slightly above 10%. Main components are Anatolian and Italo-Celtic. Moreover using a southern less Kavkaz shifted Anatolian source completely eliminates the Levantine admixture. That doesn't work for truly semitic admixed populations like the Jews.

https://iili.io/2Swo1S.jpg

https://iili.io/2SwT7e.jpg

I doubt Apulians represent the average south Italian. However the Levantine component does not go away and the models can easily be used to support the most disparate theories and hardly make "sense".

Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 0.9102% / 0.00910212
27.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
20.0 FRA_IA
19.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
19.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
12.0 Germanic
1.6 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr

Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 0.7519% / 0.00751854
30.8 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
23.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
21.8 FRA_IA
11.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
9.8 Germanic
2.6 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
0.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Target: Italian_Campania
Distance: 0.8138% / 0.00813786
30.6 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
21.0 Germanic
16.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
15.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
13.4 Italic
3.0 Iberia_Central_CA_Afr


TUR_Alalakh is not fully Middle Eastern?

TUR_Alalakh_MLBA = 41.6% EEF, 27.4% Iran_Neo, 20.8% Natufian, 10.2% CHG
SYR_Ebla_EMBA = 38% EEF, 25.2% Natufian, 24.8% Iran_Neo, 12% CHG
Levant_Sidon_MBA = 33.2 EEF, 33% Natufian, 24.4% Iran_Neo, 9.4% CHG
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA = 33.2% Natufian, 32.6% EEF, 25.4% Iran_Neo, 8.8% CHG

[Leto]

I asked about the Alalakh because if it's Middle Eastern then Jews are supposed to be nearly 60% and not 50% as they're commonly thought to be.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I asked about the Alalakh because if it's Middle Eastern then Jews are supposed to be nearly 60% and not 50% as they're commonly thought to be.

It is called overfitting. The average Ashkenazi will be about 34% "Jewish", not more.

[Leto]

It is called overfitting. The average Ashkenazi will be about 34% "Jewish", not more.
No way. They're at least half Levantine. And German Jews score around 40% East Med. No ethnic European can be that much.

[Tacitus]

Impossible to make a definitive statement either way without ancient samples from the southern Italian mainland (Gaudo, Laterza, Appenine cultures) as well as Greek samples from Magna Grecia. Otherwise we're all just talking out of our asses.

All I'm going to add is that going by the literature we have *so far,* there was an important Anatolian/Caucasus input that possibly occurred sometime at the start of the Bronze Age, in addition to whatever impact Classical-era Greeks may or may not have had. The former may have been more significant than the latter.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

No way. They're at least half Levantine. And German Jews score around 40% East Med. No ethnic European can be that much.

Lol, what is "East Med"? A 2012 calculator will be good for detecting variation in modern-day Europeans, certainly not for establishing how Jewish Jews are. I am taking into consideration the autosomal DNA of the Israelites, not of other Levantines. And to be at least 50% Israelites, they should have at least 30% Levant_PPNB, but they actually have about 35% of what Megiddo_MLBA has.

Ashkenazi
35.0 TUR_Barcin_N
24.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.8 Levant_PPNB
10.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.8 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Han
1.0 WHG

Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
58.8 Levant_PPNB
29.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
11.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Impossible to make a definitive statement either way without ancient samples from the southern Italian mainland (Gaudo, Laterza, Appenine cultures) as well as Greek samples from Magna Grecia. Otherwise we're all just talking out of our asses.

We are.

[Deusex99]

Italian Campania is not representative. The study who published those samples states in the supplementary information that it has not checked the ancestry and the birthplace of those samples. We have Campanians on GEDMatch and they are identical to Apulians.

I've seen hundreds of GEDmatch samples and Apulians are perfectly average.

https://i.ibb.co/DLW6BK6/Screenshot-20200711-012413.jpg

[Deusex99]

Impossible to make a definitive statement either way without ancient samples from the southern Italian mainland (Gaudo, Laterza, Appenine cultures) as well as Greek samples from Magna Grecia. Otherwise we're all just talking out of our asses.

All I'm going to add is that going by the literature we have *so far,* there was an important Anatolian/Caucasus input that possibly occurred sometime at the start of the Bronze Age, in addition to whatever impact Classical-era Greeks may or may not have had. The former may have been more significant than the latter.

Dude, you are talking with a complexed Mexican mestizo who use unreliable not fully native samples to push the agenda that Europeans are heavily mixed to cope with his own mixed ancestry.

[Samnium]

They even have recent Greek ancestry, notably for Apulia, Calabria... So claiming that they don't have any ancient Greek ancestry is just laughable.

Compare BA Sicilians and modern Sicilians, you will notice a difference.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Dude, you are talking with a complexed Mexican mestizo who use unreliable not fully native samples to push the agenda that Europeans are heavily mixed to cope with his own mixed ancestry.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg/341px-Sigmund_Freud_LIFE.jpg

Wow, that will be my new bio :) Anyway Tacitus is right, without ancient DNA we can't make certain statements, the best we can do for now is to speculate.


They even have recent Greek ancestry, notably for Apulia, Calabria... So claiming that they don't have any ancient Greek ancestry is just laughable.

Yeah, indeed.

[Teutonski]

Anyway whats your favorite sicilian club?
Was Skieliots classification based on your club picture accurate?

[Vid Flumina]

Iron Age Southern Italians (at least those belonging to the Oscan-speaking tribes) are said to be no different from early Latins, Umbrians, Etruscans and Picentes from those who have seen Reich's (?) preliminary results. Only a couple of outliers are reported (one close to modern Sardinians and a couple of East Med shifted samples just like in Antonio et al. paper) so we are dealing again with substantial late to post-Iron Age gene flow/pop. replacement here.

[Deusex99]

Iron Age Southern Italians (at least those belonging to the Oscan-speaking tribes) are said to be no different from early Latins, Umbrians, Etruscans and Picentes from those who have seen Reich's (?) preliminary results. Only a couple of outliers are reported (one close to modern Sardinians and a couple of East Med shifted samples just like in Antonio et al. paper) so we are dealing again with substantial late to post-Iron Age gene flow/pop. replacement here.

Oscans and Latins were 1000 BC Urnfield migrants. All Italians before that were typical farmers with the minority of East Med outliers.

[mena]

many(but not majority) south italians have a small egyptian na ancestry on their dna results ive seen and you yourself look north african op

[Deusex99]

Italian Campania is not representative. The study who published those samples states in the supplementary information that it has not checked the ancestry and the birthplace of those samples. We have Campanians on GEDMatch and they are identical to Apulians.

I've seen hundreds of GEDmatch samples and Apulians are perfectly average.

https://i.ibb.co/DLW6BK6/Screenshot-20200711-012413.jpg

Those are coastal Campanians anyway. Inland Campanians, whose ancestry/birthplace has been checked, are similar to Abruzzo/Molise (Sazzini et al 2016 and Di Gaetano et al 2012).

[grabielx]

https://i.imgur.com/k2CcMIV.png

[Peterski]

Can you try modelling modern Sicilians & South Italians using MBA/LBA Sicilians + other populations?

[Mingle]

Then how do you explain that Bronze Age (before Greek colonization) Sicilians were very different than modern Sicilians?

I am talking for example about these samples (all of them were more West Med / less East Med than modern Sicilians):

Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10372
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I10373
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3124
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3125
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3876
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I3878
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I4109
Bronze-Age-Sicily-I7796

^^^
None of those samples was close to modern Sicilians, all of them were much more Sardinian/Corsican/Iberian-shifted.

Using Global25 scaled:


ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122,0.126344,0.165531,0.028661,-0.063631,0.06832,-0.034304,-0.001175,-0.002769,0.048881,0.087473,-0.001624,0.007493,-0.0333,-0.012661,-0.019815,0.005436,0.028163,0.007221,0.008673,-0.001126,-0.003244,-0.002226,-0.006532,-0.013014,-0.002275
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123,0.120652,0.165531,0.020365,-0.049419,0.049548,-0.020638,0.003055,-0.003461,0.036201,0.06761,-0.004709,0.009591,-0.018583,-0.004954,-0.016558,-0.002254,0.011474,-0.003421,-0.004274,-0.015257,-0.00549,-0.00507,-0.009244,-0.014339,0.004431
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124,0.126344,0.160454,0.029415,-0.042636,0.060319,-0.023427,-0.003055,-0.000462,0.026588,0.059773,-0.001137,0.008393,-0.017542,-0.006468,-0.014658,-0.016839,-0.004433,0.00038,0.006536,-0.007379,-0.004866,0.000618,-0.00912,-0.003976,0.000718
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807,0.125205,0.188888,0.015085,-0.066861,0.051394,-0.045459,0,-0.004384,0.03661,0.078179,0.008282,0.015736,-0.016947,0.011973,-0.032437,-0.019491,0.008345,-0.01685,-0.000754,-0.004627,-0.012104,0.003833,-0.014666,-0.011568,-0.000958
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561,0.134311,0.147252,0.043369,-0.01292,0.04924,-0.007251,-0.00423,0.006231,0.03661,0.051026,-0.004222,0.008842,-0.023637,-0.006331,-0.009772,0.001193,0.004433,-0.000633,-0.000754,-0.006878,-0.007736,0.005812,-0.005916,-0.013255,0.003592
ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442,0.125205,0.167562,0.023381,-0.061047,0.053548,-0.026216,-0.00705,0.003231,0.032315,0.065058,0.007145,0.0118 39,-0.018434,-0.005092,-0.017915,-0.019358,-0.00678,-0.006208,0.003645,-0.007253,-0.004742,-0.004946,-0.008504,-0.014219,0.004311
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876,0.1161,0.165531,0.010559,-0.059432,0.0437,-0.022032,-0.00846,-0.003923,0.019839,0.056858,-0.00065,0.013788,-0.017393,0.003303,-0.018051,-0.016309,-0.00339,0.004687,0.006788,-0.001,-0.005366,0.003586,0.001602,-0.010845,0.006706
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878,0.119514,0.168578,0.015462,-0.063631,0.049855,-0.029562,-0.00799,-0.005538,0.026997,0.063054,-0.001786,0.01094,-0.019475,-0.011836,-0.019951,0.00053,0.011343,-0.003041,-0.00088,-0.003752,-0.009733,-0.003091,-0.006655,-0.014219,-0.005389
ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372,0.133173,0.174671,0.00792,-0.065892,0.049855,-0.026216,-0.006815,-0.004384,0.033951,0.063965,-0.003248,0.008542,-0.02438,-0.001514,-0.025244,-0.031822,-0.005607,0.005321,0.01081,-0.015257,-0.009982,-0.00136,-0.005669,-0.013737,0.002155
ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125,0.120652,0.162485,0.004148,-0.065569,0.045239,-0.023985,0.00611,-0.004154,0.027611,0.069796,0.004384,0.015736,-0.024975,-0.009358,-0.023072,0.004641,0.029467,-0.00038,0.005154,-0.004002,0.001123,0.00371,-0.00986,-0.013496,-0.001557
ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109,0.118376,0.170609,0.007165,-0.076228,0.053856,-0.026495,-0.000705,-0.003231,0.030065,0.074717,-0.001137,0.017235,-0.024529,0.003578,-0.02253,-0.014717,-0.005215,-0.00114,0.004022,-0.015507,-0.009858,-0.00272,0.000986,-0.012411,0.005748

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I4109
0.04965037 Sardinian
0.08508219 French_Corsica
0.09017750 Italian_Lazio
0.09213939 Sicilian_East
0.09222862 Italian_Apulia

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_MBA:I3125
0.04666990 Sardinian
0.07385622 French_Corsica
0.07954924 Italian_Lazio
0.08206636 Italian_Umbria
0.08365708 Italian_Campania

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I10372
0.05491102 Sardinian
0.08114985 French_Corsica
0.08848051 Italian_Lazio
0.09046529 Italian_Apulia
0.09049673 Italian_Lombardy

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3878
0.03782324 Sardinian
0.06554333 French_Corsica
0.07313148 Italian_Lazio
0.07696144 Italian_Umbria
0.07903601 Italian_Tuscany

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_LBA:I3876
0.05478154 Sardinian
0.05759252 French_Corsica
0.06271652 Italian_Lazio
0.06441082 Italian_Apulia
0.06478119 Sicilian_East

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I11442
0.03826780 Sardinian
0.06881276 French_Corsica
0.07897987 Italian_Lombardy
0.07979584 Italian_Lazio
0.08131195 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I8561
0.03979033 Spanish_Pirineu
0.04029966 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.04193531 Spanish_Castello
0.04293118 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.04320926 French_South

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I7807
0.06047338 Sardinian
0.09852818 French_Corsica
0.10543786 Italian_Lazio
0.10808443 Sicilian_East
0.10825288 Italian_Apulia

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3124
0.04159034 Sardinian
0.05265708 French_Corsica
0.06018985 Italian_Lombardy
0.06168108 Italian_Bergamo
0.06529842 Spanish_Menorca

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3123
0.02793917 Sardinian
0.05974928 French_Corsica
0.07272875 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.07284828 Italian_Lazio
0.07422434 Italian_Bergamo

Distance to: ITA_Sicily_EBA:I3122
0.03812461 Sardinian
0.09521185 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.09578470 French_Corsica
0.10773453 Spanish_Murcia
0.10912516 Spanish_Castello

=====

Modern Sicilians are probably mostly descended from Greek and Phoenician settlers.

How much Pre-Greek, Greek, and Post-Greek (Phoenician, etc.) ancestry would you say Sicilians/South Italians have?

[Tarlus Magnus]

sicilians are probably the most mixed people in europe if not in the world (apart from USA) and thats not suprising at all since they're also one the most promiscuos people ever, they literally fucked the whole mediterranean sea and not only that.
They mostly have lebanese/arab and greek DNA and a bit of normand/alpinid DNA

[gixajo]

sicilians are probably the most mixed people in europe if not in the world (apart from USA) and thats not suprising at all since they're also one the most promiscuos people ever, they literally fucked the whole mediterranean sea and not only that.
They mostly have lebanese/arab and greek DNA and a bit of normand/alpinid DNA

And who says that is:
Ancestry
Croatian (50%) , French, Austrian, Italian

[Tarlus Magnus]

And who says that is:

well almost entirely eastern and central european so not really that mixed my french ancestry is quite far because my grand grandfather was french (alpes)

[grabielx]

Can you try modelling modern Sicilians & South Italians using MBA/LBA Sicilians + other populations?

https://i.imgur.com/Z3ciCFr.png

[gixajo]

https://i.imgur.com/Z3ciCFr.png

Could you post sources? (with coordinates), maybe someone want to try this model.:rolleyes:

[gixajo]

https://i.imgur.com/Z3ciCFr.png

Could you post sources? (with coordinates), maybe someone want to try this model.:rolleyes:

[grabielx]

Could you post sources? (with coordinates), maybe someone want to try this model.:rolleyes:



Greek:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423 ,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Greek:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
Levant_Ashkelon_IA2,0.0789173,0.1411587,-0.0600877,-0.1049757,-0.0165157,-0.0365343,-0.0036033,-0.017461,0.0156117,0.011906,0.0060623,-0.007094,0.0225967,-0.003991,-0.010541,0.0114467,0.00339,-0.005574,-0.005447,0.0036683,0.0041593,0.0037097,-0.0047657,-0.007471,0.0026343
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
Yoruba,-0.630062,0.062501,0.022113,0.016708,0.000503,0.012 474,-0.044417,0.047767,-0.048881,0.032769,0.004621,0.00079,0.023056,0.0009 51,0.012523,-0.009607,0.007076,0.000449,0.006022,-0.00299,0.001554,0.002316,-0.001759,-0.000471,-0.000425
ITA_Sicily_MBA,0.119514,0.166547,0.0056565,-0.0708985,0.0495475,-0.02524,0.0027025,-0.0036925,0.028838,0.0722565,0.0016235,0.0164855,-0.024752,-0.00289,-0.022801,-0.005038,0.012126,-0.00076,0.004588,-0.0097545,-0.0043675,0.000495,-0.004437,-0.0129535,0.0020955

It doesn't have European neolithic sources outside of Sicily MBA that has CHG and Levant compared to other EFF and CA Europeans. So for non southern Italians one should add:


EEF:Scotland_N,0.1269127,0.1690178,0.0542928,-0.0322677,0.0862828,-0.0224879,-0.0037679,0.0030922,0.0634297,0.0853533,-0.0002544,0.0123091,-0.0271157,-0.0115236,-0.0072611,0.0027269,0.0076274,0.0045017,0.0042653,-0.0041436,0.0120538,0.0032151,-0.0154018,-0.0339485,-0.0001358
EEF:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N,0.1222458,0.1842168,0. 0082966,-0.0902462,0.0553334,-0.044957,-0.0058282,-0.0081228,0.0436042,0.0857604,0.0063658,0.0136678,-0.0239346,-0.0047618,-0.0360746,-0.0112964,0.0194534,0.0015456,0.0086482,-0.0130314,-0.012827,0.0041546,-0.002465,-0.0036872,-0.0021554
EEF:AUT_LBK_N,0.1220754,0.1839379,0.015792,-0.0885424,0.0642426,-0.0428098,-0.0023206,-0.0037789,0.0449952,0.0860381,0.0079368,0.0105094,-0.0204036,0.0025289,-0.0382054,-0.0129606,0.0148475,0.0011245,0.0146436,-0.0096453,-0.006738,0.0098304,-0.0058542,-0.0064919,-0.0058527
EEF:Iberia_Southeast_MLN,0.1261811,0.1677073,0.045 7934,-0.042959,0.0838399,-0.0274906,-0.0071173,-0.0006594,0.0686909,0.0943201,0.0008583,0.0181337,-0.0329389,-0.0142144,-0.0076001,-0.0033906,0.0013783,0.002968,0.0018857,-0.0046451,0.0077719,0.0038863,-0.0161279,-0.037768,0.0005473

[Deusex99]

Terrible models. You are literally forcing the software to use Ashkelon as the Southern component. There are plenty of Anatolian populations who gave better fits. See here.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?333897-Southern-Italians-have-no-ancient-Greek-ancestry&p=6927163&viewfull=1#post6927163

[gixajo]

It doesn't have European neolithic sources outside of Sicily MBA that has CHG and Levant compared to other EFF and CA Europeans. So for non southern Italians one should add:

Thanks.

I´ve just posted this model wich maybe you could be interested in:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?334120-Mediterranean-amp-Atlantic-Islanders-Model-(G25-scaled)&p=6928545#post6928545

Just for fun, of course.

[Deusex99]

Double.

[grabielx]

Terrible models. You are literally forcing the software to use Ashkelon as the Southern component. There are plenty of Anatolian populations who gave better fits. See here.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?333897-Southern-Italians-have-no-ancient-Greek-ancestry&p=6927163&viewfull=1#post6927163

Those Anatolians are a mix of EFF,CHG and steppe and they are low quality, do you understand that there is a lot of overlap between these samples? That Anatolian could be anything since those Anatolians are made of very generic and common mix.

edit:
Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Distance: 2.3573% / 0.02357343
50.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
15.4 GEO_CHG
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

They are half EEF, Italians are like half EEF themselves, go figure here, there is a lot of overlap, and a very close reference will create overfitting

[gixajo]

T,,,,,

https://i.imgur.com/b5cyFMR.png

[Deusex99]

Those Anatolians are a mix of EFF,CHG and steppe and they are low quality, do you understand that there is a lot of overlap between these samples? That Anatolian could be anything since those Anatolians are made of very generic and common mix.

edit:
Target: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Distance: 2.3573% / 0.02357343
50.4 TUR_Barcin_N
26.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
15.4 GEO_CHG
8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

They are half EEF, Italians are like half EEF themselves, go figure here, there is a lot of overlap, and a very close reference will create overfitting

Stay calm. It's not my fault if that software picks certain Anatolian populations over Ashkelon. It also makes sense historically since the bulk of Greek speaking population was in Anatolia, Cyprus, Southern Balkans (also a quite East Med population before the Slavic migration)... While only an hand full of Israelites/Canaanites became Greek speaking. Magna Graecians would have been nearly identical to Imperial Romans.

[grabielx]

In my opinion there is no question that South Italians are more than 25% Greek
now let's look at this model and the dist%

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 2.6033% / 0.02603258
51.6 French_Provence
48.4 Lebanese_Muslim

2.6% dist is relatively high, now if you had a Greek source:

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 0.8881% / 0.00888105
35.8 French_Provence
34.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
29.4 Lebanese_Muslim

0.8% is almost as good as you are going to get, there is no question IMO that S Italians have Greek ancestry, it's going to obvious as soon as we get the right papers

a more historically sound model

Target: Italian_Apulia
Distance: 1.0132% / 0.01013174
41.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
22.4 ITA_Etruscan
20.6 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
12.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.6 GRC_Mycenaean

[Deusex99]

Tried various models. S.Italians are more or less a third East Med like (Samaritan like) and the rest is a mix of various Euro ancestries. Other Italians have less of that, while French speakers from Aosta lack it completely.

https://i.ibb.co/m68VZKV/Screenshot-20201011-204207.jpg

[Kenshiro]

Italian Campania is not representative. The study who published those samples states in the supplementary information that it has not checked the ancestry and the birthplace of those samples. We have Campanians on GEDMatch and they are identical to Apulians.

I've seen hundreds of GEDmatch samples and Apulians are perfectly average.

https://i.ibb.co/DLW6BK6/Screenshot-20200711-012413.jpg

We Apulians are quite heterogeneous, I plot with central Italy and the Balkans on average and are almost equidistant between southern Italy and northern Italy
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[Roy]

Interesting if true, but I am not compelled.