People from turkey might have less mongoloid DNA than I originally thought

[Hoihey]

We’ve all seen those posts of Turks proudly proclaiming their mongoloid origin, they even send presentations and graphs of different areas of turkey showing which regions have this most mongoloid influence (those graphs show that its western Turkey). What they don’t seem to remember is that even in the case of massive migration from Central Asia (it didn’t have much population at that point) the median mongoloid DNA of Turks wouldn’t reach that high. Why? Because there were many more latter day migrations into modern day Anatolia during the Ottoman Empire, then modern day Turkey.

Muhacir

For those who were oppressed due to their beliefs, perceived race, and traditions, being an Ottoman was a lifesaver. The Ottoman state was not a nation-state, it was an empire It was always more advanced than its contemporary states in terms of perception of subjects and minority rights. Ottoman subjects came from different religious backgrounds, but they were equal before law. At that time, this right was not granted to those outside the dominant group anywhere around the world.Whether they were Muslim or not, all people who recognized the sovereignty of the Ottoman Empire were its subjects. In return, the state was expected to protect the people. When Muslims living in other countries wanted to immigrate to the Ottoman Empire, which they used to see as the "dar al-Islam" ("Abode of Islam", where the Muslims enjoy peace and security within the country under Islamic rule), the empire felt itself responsible to allow the immigrants to become subjects. No matter in which country they were living, the Ottoman Empire treated the world's Muslims as its subjects. After the Russian invasion of Crimea in 1784 and the Caucasus in 1864, Muslims living in these regions immigrated to Anatolia either by ship or land routes Thousands of them died on the way. The Muslims who were able to make it to the empire, which they thought of as their homeland, were settled in available villages and towns. When Ottoman rule receded in the Central Europe and the Balkans toward the end of the 17th century, Muslims flocked to Anatolia and found asylum there. Many hundreds of thousands of folks from all over the empire flocked to modern day Anatolia, these folks were european or Caucasian transplants in Anatolia, they didn’t differ in DNA from other people in their place of origin, and they would have a profound effect on the modern day Turkish population.

NUMBER OF TRANSMIGRANTS

The influx of migration during the late 19th century and early 20th century was due to the loss of almost all Ottoman territory during the Balkan War of 1912-13 and World War I. These Muhacirs, or refugees, saw the Ottoman Empire, and subsequently the Republic of Turkey, as a protective "motherland". Many of the Muhacir escaped to Anatolia as a result of the widespread persecution of Ottoman Muslims that occurred during the last years of the Ottoman Empire.
Thereafter, with the establishment of the Republic of Turkey in 1923, a large influx of Turks, as well as other Muslims, from the Balkans, the Black Sea, the Caucasus, the Aegean islands, the island of Cyprus, the Sanjak of Alexandretta (İskenderun), the Middle East, and the Soviet Union continued to arrive in the region, most of which settled in urban north-western Anatolia. In 1923 more than half a million ethnic Muslims of various nationalities arrived from Greece as part of the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (the population exchange was not based on ethnicity but religious affiliation). After 1925, Turkey continued to accept Turkic-speaking Muslims as immigrants and did not discourage the emigration of members of non-Turkic minorities. More than 90 percent of all immigrants arrived from the Balkan countries. From 1934 till 1945, 229,870 refugees and immigrants came to Turkey. Between 1935 and 1940, for example, approximately 124,000 Bulgarians and Romanians of Turkish origin immigrated to Turkey, and between 1954 and 1956 about 35,000 Muslim Slavs immigrated from Yugoslavia. In the fifty-five-year period ending in 1980, Turkey admitted approximately 1.3 million immigrants; 36 percent came from Bulgaria, 25 percent from Greece 22.1 percent from Yugoslavia, and 8.9 percent from Romania. These Balkan immigrants, as well as smaller numbers of Turkic immigrants from Cyprus and the Soviet Union, were granted full citizenship upon their arrival in Turkey. The immigrants were settled primarily in the Marmara and Aegean regions (78 percent) and in Central Anatolia (11.7 percent).
From the 1930s to 2016 migration added two million Muslims in Turkey. The majority of these immigrants were the Balkan Turks. New waves of Turks and other Muslims expelled from Bulgaria and Yugoslavia between 1951 and 1953 were followed to Turkey by another exodus from Bulgaria in 1983-89, bringing the total of immigrants to nearly ten million people.
More recently, Meskhetian Turks have emigrated to Turkey from the former Soviet Union states (particularly in Ukraine - after the Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation in 2014), and many Iraqi Turkmen and Syrian Turkmen have taken refuge in Turkey due to the recent Iraq War (2003-2011) and Syrian Civil War

It is estimated that a full FOURTH of modern Turkish peoples DNA come from these migrants.

23 and me results of random Turks
NOTE THIS IS ONLY TO SHOW RECENT NON ANATOLIAN ADMIXTURE IN TURKEY IS QUITE HIGH, I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT 23ANDME IS AN ACCURATE DNA SITE FOR ANCIENT ADMIXTURE
https://i.ibb.co/J2BBsWD/2-F98-FBF7-3-D25-4507-96-CE-BCDD15-AC96-C9.jpg (https://ibb.co/4MmmVwh)
https://i.ibb.co/BcYDPr3/01331-D5-B-0-EE0-44-A8-A749-E3807378899-D.jpg (https://ibb.co/HB9v2x4)
https://i.ibb.co/dkr6KZb/7-C03756-E-671-D-494-A-846-E-7081-D0-C8-D322.png (https://ibb.co/2cyPKJ8)
https://i.ibb.co/svxmQKF/CAF59053-65-A3-4-C46-92-FE-595039-F18189.jpg (https://ibb.co/WW8xFkc)
https://i.ibb.co/NpqV1bz/05-D0-C495-876-E-424-A-B89-B-A7128589-D410.jpg (https://ibb.co/Y8SRDwG)
https://i.ibb.co/tPxGj7D/5-CF864-F4-C88-E-4-C6-E-AD25-5-F3709588310.jpg (https://ibb.co/2Ys9VDd)
https://i.ibb.co/C9055GH/6-C84-F2-F1-9168-4811-8-D2-D-841-C7467-B026.png (https://ibb.co/n1kssJL)
https://i.ibb.co/HPJ5S99/C7210-E74-234-C-4417-8-F31-67114-BEF1-FF6.jpg (https://ibb.co/LgGVFss)
https://i.ibb.co/PZDMCDk/546258-FB-DD8-A-41-EE-90-DB-7079-B25-A98-D3.jpg (https://ibb.co/yn4ps42)
https://i.ibb.co/Zz6w1hr/48-F98084-173-D-4096-AB6-A-13-A0-C7-CA71-CD.png (https://ibb.co/KxjQz9g)
https://i.ibb.co/KsC9CYg/9-F20-A2-DE-F2-C5-4-D60-BCF9-A176641-B8419.png (https://ibb.co/pKC3CgT)
https://i.ibb.co/vkJqkBX/E12-B4-E9-B-866-D-4-C70-8-AE8-29-A363-C52-F6-F.jpg (https://ibb.co/XtzLt4Y)
https://i.ibb.co/0qgddvd/E692-F645-9306-435-A-97-FB-3-B0204-EDC201.png (https://ibb.co/gy5BBhB)
https://i.ibb.co/306C4dx/739-EBEB5-587-D-4-A75-87-A1-66-B1-E92-AAA35.png (https://ibb.co/hKQmL9G)
https://i.ibb.co/0ndL8Qd/1-E5-E3155-AB02-42-B7-9-BAC-9-C16-AD62885-B.png (https://ibb.co/7S6D8b6)
https://i.ibb.co/58cKr00/73-E2-CA8-A-4040-4-BB8-97-CB-0-A5-F3-A80369-E.jpg (https://ibb.co/Z8T2Bjj)
https://i.ibb.co/KrNVsB2/3202-C0-FD-2-E61-47-EC-894-A-3-E42-C1-FA9714.png (https://ibb.co/2k8cMRv)
https://i.ibb.co/J2BBsWD/2-F98-FBF7-3-D25-4507-96-CE-BCDD15-AC96-C9.jpg (https://ibb.co/4MmmVwh)
https://i.ibb.co/Mc4c0Dz/48-BFCFBF-1-AB5-42-FD-A17-F-88777561-D5-C5.jpg (https://ibb.co/6HxHCRK)
https://i.ibb.co/h2m3kMf/3-EEB59-C0-D7-B1-442-D-9-D91-1469-C8-CC85-DD.png (https://ibb.co/NWycX3S)
https://i.ibb.co/hYs8PwR/CF107-B86-1255-47-F7-9058-51-B5-CA2-ADF9-D.png (https://ibb.co/WVnKbjW)
https://i.ibb.co/vkJqkBX/E12-B4-E9-B-866-D-4-C70-8-AE8-29-A363-C52-F6-F.jpg (https://ibb.co/XtzLt4Y)
https://i.ibb.co/jrSfL7b/DE20-D586-608-E-4061-AE1-D-449748324-E9-C.jpg (https://ibb.co/CHf8nxm)
https://i.ibb.co/VgJb35q/83435339-2-BBA-4-FA0-ADB1-AAA33-E9033-D5.png (https://ibb.co/6HrGNLW)
https://i.ibb.co/jb3z1nd/03883-E92-13-B7-4702-914-A-2-ACE8025-AAFB.png (https://ibb.co/gmtdBkG)
https://i.ibb.co/M2s0HVZ/DEBDEB77-1-F67-406-D-A582-70492-A18-F172.png (https://ibb.co/yfXjCyd)
https://i.ibb.co/VJgpbg7/26-B4-BD6-D-E21-E-4-EC8-823-F-AC5-CA513-BF48.jpg (https://ibb.co/BcyKvyX)

[Noble Cuman]

When they share these genetic maps of Turkey. They show native Turks in Turkey. Such as Yörüks, Manavs, Chepni, Alevi etc. Balkan, Tatar and Caucasus people are native to their own region.

[Jana]

Anatolian on 23andme includes mongoloid DNA, it's based on modern Turks.

[Varda]

I think part of mongoloid admixture in Turks came from Crimean Tatars and central Asians who settled in Turkey in the last 100 years.

[Bender1999]

I think part of mongoloid admixture in Turks came from Crimean Tatars and central Asians who settled in Turkey in the last 100 years.

Lol

Which Central Asians were settled the last 100 years?

[Varda]

Lol

Which Central Asians were settled the last 100 years?

Fresh portion of mongoloid dna arrives in Turkey via these people, to make you more similar to Oghuzes. :thumb001:


https://youtu.be/Wp_qZgeqw38

[Leto]

Turk_national_avg (Dodecad K12b, based on almost 600 samples)

15.20
4.35
0.92
0.59
12.40
10.27
1.32
0.19
11.06
4.26
39.37
0.09

9.20 percent Mongoloid

[Noble Cuman]

I think part of mongoloid admixture in Turks came from Crimean Tatars and central Asians who settled in Turkey in the last 100 years.

They are different than Oghuz Turks. They are Kipchaks and they have their own culture but still both of them Turkic. These genetic maps of Turkey only show native Oghuz Turks.

[Bender1999]

Fresh portion of mongoloid dna arrives in Turkey via these people, to make you more similar to Oghuzes. :thumb001:


https://youtu.be/Wp_qZgeqw38


Wtf no...

[Varda]

They are different than Oghuz Turks. They are Kipchaks and they have their own culture but still both of them Turkic. These genetic maps of Turkey only show native Oghuz Turks.

What is Turkic admixture in Anatolian Turks? Which region is most Turkic? Trabzon Turks are almost without Turkic dna?

[Hoihey]

Anatolian on 23andme includes mongoloid DNA, it's based on modern Turks.

The issue is that there their Anatolian DNA will be lower than you’d think, and is often supplemented with Caucasian (From the Caucasus)/European

[Leto]

They are different than Oghuz Turks. They are Kipchaks and they have their own culture but still both of them Turkic. These genetic maps of Turkey only show native Oghuz Turks.
The Turkmens are the only modern Oghuz ethnic group that is over 20% Mongoloid. But actually I learned on this forum that too much fixation on the Mongoloid when it come to Turkicness makes little sense. There are multiple different things to consider besides that.

[Chris596]

I'm not sure about the validity of these DNA tests anymore.. But I trust GEDmatch.

There was a Turkish member whose name I can't remember, according to GEDmatch he is 6-8% Mongoloid and he barely got 1% East Asian on 23andme.... so if I'll ever do 23andme, I bet I wouldn't get any East Asian...

[Varda]

The Turkmens are the only modern Oghuz ethnic group that is over 20% Mongoloid. But actually I learned on this forum that too much fixation on the Mongoloid when it come to Turkicness makes little sense. There are multiple different things to consider besides that.

You mean mongoloid dna is main or only scale of Turkic dna for forum Turks?

[Leto]

You mean mongoloid dna is main or only scale of Turkic dna for forum Turks?
Well, first off, the Turkics aren't a single monolith from Gagauzia and Thrace all the way to Xinjiang and Yakutia. In the 21st century it's largely a language thing, kinda like Indo-European, Semitic, Uralic, etc. Secondly, even the early medieval Turkics apparently weren't 100% East Eurasian like the Han Chinese, Japanese or some Tungusic tribes. And thirdly, Eastern Turkistan might have been affected to varying degrees by the Mongol conquest in the 13th century.

[Noble Cuman]

What is Turkic admixture in Anatolian Turks? Which region is most Turkic? Trabzon Turks are almost without Turkic dna?

In Eastern Anatolia native Kurds, Arabs and other little minorities live. From Trabzon to Rize native Hellenized after Turkified Greek and Laz people live. So they do not have much Turkic. Mostly Muğla, Bursa, Balıkesir, Bolu and more cities in Western Anatolia and Giresun, Ordu in Black sea have high East Eurasian for Turkey. Usually they can have up to 15-20.

[Varda]

Well, first off, the Turkics aren't a single monolith from Gagauzia all the way to Yakutia. In the 21st century it's a language thing, kinda like Indo-European, Semitic, Uralic, etc. Secondly, even the early medieval Turkics apparently weren't 100% East Eurasian like the Han Chinese, Japanese or some Tungusic tribes. And thirdly, Eastern Turkistan might have been affected to varying degrees by the Mongol conquest in the 13th century.

Is there any archeogenetic evidence for East Eurasian autosomal score of medieval Oghuzes? Or Turkish "Turkic dna" is based only on comparation with Turkmens who are Persian admixed btw?

[Leto]

Is there any archeogenetic evidence for East Eurasian autosomal score of medieval Oghuzes? Or Turkish "Turkic dna" is based only on comparation with Turkmens who are Persian admixed btw?
There is a couple of Ottoman samples. I don't know too much about them to be honest.

[Lexx]

From what I have seen they do have some of it, which can also be seen racially, but overall they seem also very Mediterranean. Some have also Balkan ancestry.

[Noble Cuman]

Turks and Eastern Scythians were usually Western Eurasian and Eastern Eurasian mixed people. Only Western Scythians had almost Caucasoid dna. Oghuz people were from Western Kazakhstan. Then they migrated to Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran. Kipchaks followed the northern way and settled in East Europe.

[Hoihey]

What is Turkic admixture in Anatolian Turks? Which region is most Turkic? Trabzon Turks are almost without Turkic dna?


I'm not sure about the validity of these DNA tests anymore.. But I trust GEDmatch.

There was a Turkish member whose name I can't remember, according to GEDmatch he is 6-8% Mongoloid and he barely got 1% East Asian on 23andme.... so if I'll ever do 23andme, I bet I wouldn't get any East Asian...

I used 23AndMe to show recent non Anatolian OR Turkic admixture in the modern day Turkish population. I acknowledge that some of their DNA would be tucked away in their Anatolian percentage, but still. Even then it will be lower that I thought at first

[mitalit]

I'm not sure about the validity of these DNA tests anymore.. But I trust GEDmatch.

There was a Turkish member whose name I can't remember, according to GEDmatch he is 6-8% Mongoloid and he barely got 1% East Asian on 23andme.... so if I'll ever do 23andme, I bet I wouldn't get any East Asian...

Who knows, but imo 23andme is pretty good. If you have "recent" ancestors from there I think you would get some East Asian

[Hoihey]

In Eastern Anatolia native Kurds, Arabs and other little minorities live. From Trabzon to Rize native Hellenized after Turkified Greek and Laz people live. So they do not have much Turkic. Mostly Muğla, Bursa, Balıkesir, Bolu and more cities in Western Anatolia and Giresun, Ordu in Black sea have high East Eurasian for Turkey. Usually they can have up to 15-20.

Considering the large scale migrations of various peoples into modern day Turkey, would you consider the average mongoloid DNA of a Turkish citizen to be below 8%?

[Noble Cuman]

Considering the large scale migrations of various peoples into modern day Turkey, would you consider the average mongoloid DNA of a Turkish citizen to be below 8%?

I can not give exact number. Turkey is ethnically very diverse place. But if we include all the population of Turkey it would be low.

[Kaspias]

I don't know what you had thought before, but just to clarify:

Turkish people can be modeled from 0% to 40% Central Asian by using Gokturk, Karakhanid, Kimak, and Karluk samples(We don't have Oghuz, and radiocarbon dating is not applied to the samples which labeled as "Ottoman," so we can't know if they are really Ottoman or something else. That's why we are using proxies.) Yet this was probably was not the form of Seljuk Turks, and they were already mixed.

So if we are going to investigate early Central Asian form, this is what we have:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFuljugX0AMhbKv?format=jpg&name=medium

And if we are going to model with Seljuk-Era Turks, this is what we have:

https://i.ibb.co/tcCZpj5/5.png

Balkan Turks are equal to Central Anatolian Turks in terms of Turkic DNA, just for your information as they did not show in these models.




Non-Turks can not be responsible for Turkish averages as they came from elsewhere, and usually know who they actually are. In the same parallel what I state, they already don't claim for a Turkic heritage. But it is the fact that a great portion of Turkish population (up to 1/4) is non-Turk. What should be realized here is being Turkish does not mean being an ethnic Turk.

On the other hand, an average consisted of all ethnicities live in Turkey would lower East Eurasian significantly, yet such an average would be utterly useless at the same time as it won't be representative of anything.



And you shouldn't use 23andme for such inferences. Try to use Gedmatch or G25 data instead. It will give you better option to compare results.

[Noble Cuman]

I agree. But Balkan Turks also can have Kipchak or Tatar dna.

[Kaspias]

I agree. But Balkan Turks also can have Kipchak or Tatar dna.

Yes. I meant the same amount, not the same admixture.

[Dr_Maul]

lol, 23andMe only goes back 500 years. Manzikert alone was over 400 years before that point. But to be honest, I think Turkic admix is not very Seljuk but more so post-Mongol. Thats still older than 1500 AD by a lot
It varies by region, averaging around 9 I guess. Western Turks have around 12-15, which can equate to 40% "Turkic", which is probably the most. Slowly dilutes the more east you go, although not by much. Certain peoples like those in Trabzon are almost completely assimilated, same with some Balkan groups

[Hoihey]

And you shouldn't use 23andme for such inferences. Try to use Gedmatch or G25 data instead. It will give you better option to compare results.

I wasn’t, it was only to show that modern non Anatolian admixture in the Turkish population is quite high

[Kaspias]

I wasn’t, it was only to show that modern non Anatolian admixture in the Turkish population is quite high

It is not reliable anyway. It can pop up massively in one individual and lesser in one.

I don't have Anatolian admixture in reality, but have 45% in 23andme just because of shared East Eurasian.