What did Iberomaurisians look like?

[princeton90]

Any idea?

[Hamilcar]

Like this :

https://i.imgur.com/x2rflIG.jpg


But probably with darker skin

[Vid Flumina]

^^Regular pheno of someone whos over 1/3 SSA / indigenous african.. even these Iraqis look woggier :

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264588-classify-some-iraqis

[Vid Flumina]

From a genetic standpoint, Afar people are their closest modern match :

https://res.cloudinary.com/fleetnation/image/private/c_fit,w_1120/g_south,l_text:style_gothic2:%C2%A9%20Eric%20Laffo rgue,o_20,y_10/g_center,l_watermark4,o_25,y_50/v1517612351/qvpstb2ib8avnutnmjyn.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1277124264563486720/fXSoJyWR.jpg

https://www.awl-images.com/cache/pcache2/00007337.jpg

[Hamilcar]

^^Regular pheno of someone whos over 1/3 SSA / indigenous african.. even these Iraqis look woggier :

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?264588-classify-some-iraqis

your informations are outdated because they were not 1/3 SSA :

"Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources."

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full


also the reconstruction is based on the skulls we have (which are similar to pleistocene europeans)

[Zoro]

your informations are outdated because they were not 1/3 SSA :

"Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources."

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full


also the reconstruction is based on the skulls we have (which are similar to pleistocene europeans)

That is one view, but other analysis has shown significant SSA which to me makes more sense


The Taforalt individuals averaged 22.5% sub-Saharan African ancestry, reflecting a composite of 12.0% Western African, 7.1% Omotic, and 3.4% Eastern African ancestry. van de Loosdrecht et al. (2) reported that modern West Africans, such as Mandenka, Esan, Mende, and Yoruba, were most strongly related to the sub-Saharan African component.


https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6388/548/tab-e-letters

[Hamilcar]

That is one view, but other analysis has shown significant SSA which to me makes more sense



https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6388/548/tab-e-letters

nope my study is more recent and corrects yours that's why they say " rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources"

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Like canarians I think

[Immanenz]

judged by reconstruction they looked like CroMagnoid with slight Neanderthal shift, so more or less similar to European counterparts

interesting would be detailed comparison of skull characteristics, pigmentation etc.

[Adamm]

Like this I think:

https://i.imgur.com/ZYh9gud.png

[Hamilcar]

Like this I think:



you're definitely trolling

[Vid Flumina]

Modern SSA (Yoruba or whatever author tested for in his models) might not be the best approximation, nevertheless any low K run makes it clear that this ANA component is related to tropical africans. With over 60% West Eurasian ancestry you don't cluster next to Afars otherwise, for all we know ANA could be even more basal than the SSA source in horners :


https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/taforalt-admixture.jpg



also the reconstruction is based on the skulls we have (which are similar to pleistocene europeans)

Meanwhile reconstruction of Cheddar Man looks like a blue-eyed negrito, stp Nass..

(ones to wonder what they would come up with with Ascended's skull)

[Hamilcar]

Modern SSA (Yoruba or whatever author tested for in his models) might not be the best approximation, nevertheless any low K run makes it clear that this ANA component is related to tropical africans. With over 60% West Eurasian ancestry you don't cluster next to Afars otherwise, for all we know ANA could be even more basal than the SSA source in horners :




These PCA in the case of Iberomaurusian are misleading because of lack of data we don't know anything about ANA and even with it iberomaurusian are still more eurasian shifted than tigray. Also plotting next to afar doesn't necessarily imply that they looked like afar especially that iberomaurusian were cromagnoid and more eurasian shifted.




Meanwhile reconstruction of Cheddar Man looks like a blue-eyed negrito, stp Nass..

(ones to wonder what they would come up with with Ascended's skull)

Have you read anything about them ? If that was the case you would have known that they were far far more robust than any horner :

https://i.imgur.com/8XIlPdy.png

(they also had the SNP for straight hair)

They looked like pleistocene europeans (cro-magnon type) with dark skin and straight hair. There is nothing east african about them.

[Sora]

They probably looked like today's Northern North Africans but a bit closer to South Euro types, even I think they looked pseudo East Asian like Ouidad(a Moroccan singer lives in France, also she looks very -pseudo-Asian)

[Vid Flumina]

..we don't know anything about ANA and even with it iberomaurusian are still more eurasian shifted than tigray.

At the same time Tigray have less West Eurasian no ? So ANA could still be more basal than horner type of SSA, in theory.


(they also had the SNP for straight hair)

Should this come as a surprise when even Somalis have it aplenty ?


They looked like pleistocene europeans (cro-magnon type) with dark skin and straight hair. There is nothing east african about them.

With that amount of indigenous african admixture chances are they would have looked mixed race (distinctly so, in accordance with their atDNA) :

Distance to: MAR_Taforalt
0.27567117 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.29910060 Somali
0.46517654 Hadza
0.46976571 BEL_GoyetQ2
0.49986910 Iberia_ElMiron
0.56503501 Yoruba
0.60997068 WHG
0.61125770 ITA_Villabruna

[Hamilcar]

At the same time Tigray have less West Eurasian no ? So ANA could still be more basal than horner type of SSA, in theory.


Tigray are the most west eurasian shifted horners. On a PCA this IBM doesn't act the same as the typical 45% SSA and 55% eurasian it's still more west eurasian shifted and when it comes to craniometry IBM are perfectly "caucasoid"/cromagnoid




Should this come as a surprise when even Somalis have it aplenty ?

Not all Somalis and somalis share no craniometrical similarities with IBM




With that amount of indigenous african admixture chances are they would have looked mixed race (distinctly so, in accordance with their atDNA) :

Distance to: MAR_Taforalt
0.27567117 Ethiopian_Tigray
0.29910060 Somali
0.46517654 Hadza
0.46976571 BEL_GoyetQ2
0.49986910 Iberia_ElMiron
0.56503501 Yoruba
0.60997068 WHG
0.61125770 ITA_Villabruna

That's not what the cranio-dental results show and you saw the reconstructions yourself (the only point where I disagree with it is the skin color. IBM were brown-skinned) and thanks for proving my point they are quite far genetically from the tigray. I'm closer to tigray than IBM lol

[Zoro]

Regardless of cranial features environment rules when it comes to skin color anywhere on this planet. That’s why there are no white TRIBAL Africans. Heck during the time of IBM even WHG in N Europe where dark. The light skin mutations hadn’t taken hold on earth yet.

[Cernunnos]

#MakeSomaliaBerberAgain

[Hamilcar]

Regardless of cranial features environment rules when it comes to skin color anywhere on this planet. That’s why there are no white TRIBAL Africans. Heck during the time of IBM even WHG in N Europe where dark. The light skin mutations hadn’t taken hold on earth yet.

Indeed I never denied this

[mitalit]

probably not very different from berbers

[Adamm]

you're definitely trolling

I'm not, I believe that IBM had skin pigmentation like SSA/East Africans.

[Hamilcar]

I'm not, I believe that IBM had skin pigmentation like SSA/East Africans.

these people not only have different features but also very different ancestry they are nothing like IBM who had straight hair, dark skin and were cromagnoid (very robust compared to them)

[Vid Flumina]

Tigray are the most west eurasian shifted horners. On a PCA this IBM doesn't act the same as the typical 45% SSA and 55% eurasian

They pretty much overlap with Afars so what's the big deal in their EA shift ? All it takes is 5-10% extra Eurasian input, with the african part being equally basal.


Not all Somalis

Post SNP frequencies in Somalis so we can compare.



That's not what the cranio-dental results show and you saw the reconstructions yourself (the only point where I disagree with it is the skin color. IBM were brown-skinned) and thanks for proving my point they are quite far genetically from the tigray. I'm closer to tigray than IBM lol

Problem is, your point was never argued to begin with. On the other hand you cannot get around the fact that Taforalt is twice as close to modern East African than to Paleo-Europeans, no amount of Muh tanned cromag teeth can overrule genetics.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man#Race_factor

[Hamilcar]

They pretty much overlap with Afars so what's the big deal in their EA shift ? All it takes is 5-10% extra West Eurasian input, with the african part being equally basal.

That's false their african part is less deep than ANA and ANA was still part of the same tree root as other eurasians. You can't just compare a modern population to IBM...that's like saying all population with around 50-60% deep ancestry and the rest west eurasian look the same or are similar to each other.

Let's wait for more infos about them and you'll see that I was right.




Post SNP frequencies in Somalis so we can compare.

as if I had it lol here take a quick look :

https://i.imgur.com/OhuEpU9.png
https://i.imgur.com/KMOZ6ry.jpg





Problem is, your point was never argued to begin with. On the other hand you simply cannot get around the fact that Taforalt is twice as close to modern East African than to Paleo-Europeans, no amount of Muh tanned cromag teeth can overrule genetics.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man#Race_factor

Even if you were right they still looked nothing like afar or any modern horner

why do you keep debating with me ? I've read so much about them I doubt you know what you're talking about in this particular case

[Creoda]

Robust Mulattoes

[Daco Celtic]

https://i.imgur.com/WYRAPml.jpg

[XenophobicPrussian]

your informations are outdated because they were not 1/3 SSA :

"Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources."

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full


also the reconstruction is based on the skulls we have (which are similar to pleistocene europeans)
You've posted this a million times already, and assuming you're Nassbean I've already told you how wrong you are.

Yoruba having Taforalt ancestry does not mean Taforalt itself had no SSA or proto-SSA. It had very clear SSA, it wouldn't be right between Middle-Easterners and SSAs on a PCA plot, it would be an outlier. Many anthropologists also pointed out how many skulls were intermediary between Caucasoid and SSA. No one denies modern West Africans, if not all Bantus, have Taforalt ancestry, indeed you race mixers completely genocided native Nigerian and other men given how prevalent the Eurasian Y-DNA E is in Bantus.

https://s22.postimg.cc/nibfy4pjl/Loosdrecht_f4_PC1_flip_1.png

Dealing with physical anthropology, look at this graph below, the skull feature PCA shows them between ancient Nubian skulls and European Cro-Magnids(although it can be argued Taforalt is indeed an outlier, it's still really close to the intersecting line and isn't really that far out, all it means is they had some unique features, meanwhile right beside in northern Algeria, Afalou are directly between CM and ancient Nubian skulls, even Dogon/Bushmen to a lesser extent), Coon didn't mention any SSA affinity but he's full of shit just like his stupid "exotic Nordic" Moroccan plates.

https://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/saharan-populations-compared1.png?w=500


The means of selected modern samples from the dataset of Howells (1973) were entered along with those of the fossil samples into a factor analysis to assess the interrelationships of the samples.

The males of the Afalou, Taforalt and Cro-Magnon samples lie far to the right on the diagram (Fig. 4), on factor 1, followed by Nubia male, Asselar, Cro-Magnon female, and Norse and Egypt male; to the left (scoring low on factor 1) are Dogon and Teita males, and the females of the remaining samples. On factor 2, Cro-Magnon, Taforalt, Norse and Egypt score positively, and Afalou and the sub-Saharan and Nubian samples score negatively.

Factor 1 represents robusticity, factor 2 represents the sub-Saharan/Caucasoid contrast. The Caucasoid populations (Egypt, Norse, Cro-Magnon) score positively on factor 2, the sub-Saharan Teita score negatively. The modern Dogon (Southern Mali) samples are intermediate. The fossil Nubians who were described as being Mechtoid score strongly negative, as does the Asselar skull (Central Mali). What is especially interesting is that Afalou also scores negatively, if only slightly; it occupies the same morphological position as do the modern Dogon.

I guarantee you Afalou samples would be the exact same as Taforalt, and again, Taforalt, while having a lot of unique features of their own and somewhat outlying, they can still be considered intermediary between European CM skulls and modern SSA/ancient Nubian skulls.

Dogon people:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/iRLxYOnuSNBiZOTAC0OkOJqLHDUFjjhtU0MGL82kzUqSMExvQe RhLK6FPgZRbhsHtPEAaQOBVSc9Nhbc1jLf8PRWfgixo8k7dLPb x2xbSSNy8iKLjcWU03AjD_LdEQ5iFEr0O2zqIjGBKhdQfViXC8 Z8RE5w9W0pOzgnP74

All of that is pseudo science anyway, because Taforalt had nothing to do with European CMs genetically and were far closer to the phenotypically very gracile Natufians, only posting it to show you don't have physical anthropology on your side either.


A two-way admixture scenario using Natufian and modern sub-Saharan samples (including West Africans and the Tanzanian Hadza) as reference populations inferred that the seven Taforalt individuals are best modeled genetically as of 63.5% Natufian-related and 36.5% sub-Saharan ancestry (with the latter having both West African-like and Hadza-like affinities), with no apparent gene flow from the Epigravettian culture of Paleolithic southern Europe.

You have black ancestors, get over it.

[Dard]

https://www.workers.org/wp-content/uploads/Kaepernick_Nike.jpg

[Ethel]

Like Nassbean I guess

[Hamilcar]

You've posted this a million times already, and assuming you're Nassbean I've already told you how wrong you are.

Yoruba having Taforalt ancestry does not mean Taforalt itself had no SSA or proto-SSA. It had very clear SSA, it wouldn't be right between Middle-Easterners and SSAs on a PCA plot, it would be an outlier. Many anthropologists also pointed out how many skulls were intermediary between Caucasoid and SSA. No one denies modern West Africans, if not all Bantus, have Taforalt ancestry, indeed you race mixers completely genocided native Nigerian and other men given how prevalent the Eurasian Y-DNA E is in Bantus.



Dealing with physical anthropology, look at this graph below, the skull feature PCA shows them between ancient Nubian skulls and European Cro-Magnids(although it can be argued Taforalt is indeed an outlier, it's still really close to the intersecting line and isn't really that far out, all it means is they had some unique features, meanwhile right beside in northern Algeria, Afalou are directly between CM and ancient Nubian skulls, even Dogon/Bushmen to a lesser extent), Coon didn't mention any SSA affinity but he's full of shit just like his stupid "exotic Nordic" Moroccan plates.





I guarantee you Afalou samples would be the exact same as Taforalt, and again, Taforalt, while having a lot of unique features of their own and somewhat outlying, they can still be considered intermediary between European CM skulls and modern SSA/ancient Nubian skulls.

Dogon people:



All of that is pseudo science anyway, because Taforalt had nothing to do with European CMs genetically and were far closer to the phenotypically very gracile Natufians, only posting it to show you don't have physical anthropology on your side either.



You have black ancestors, get over it.

why did you avoid the reconstructions ? Your quotes straight from the 70's aren't going to help you they are the same who claimed that natufians were negroids lol. Iberomaurusians show no prognathism, their nasal aperture was not typically negroid, had straight hair, were of the cro-magnoid type (you also tend to forget that nubia itself was exposed to west eurasian migrations not a coincidence if we find capsian culture both in the maghreb and nubia). And no natufians were proto-mediterraneans and way too gracile compared to IBM there is no similarity between them and IBM was still more eurasian shifted than these horners so no I don't have black ancestors (except if you only focus on their skin tone but in that case you also have black ancestors)

This is pure intellectual dishonesty.

They didn't even have African maternal lineages , unlike horners who got all of their african ancestry from Nilotic females. Moreover the "Deep" ancestry in IAM/IBM is very different from horners , and part of it is sharing of alleles between Yoruba and ancestral North african population similar to Taforalt so as I said previously part of the PCA is misleading. ANA is positioned in a very differently in the phylogenetic tree (same root as other eurasians)

They were completely different people and not all "Deep" ancestries are Sub-saharan african , Take Iranian Mesolithic population for example they have the same story as IAM.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Nope, Iranian Mesolithic isn't intermediary between SSAs on a PCA plot, doesn't show any SSA signs in ADMIXTURE runs, and can't be modeled as part SSA, they are simply Natufian+ANE. What's next, Indians have no Onge-like admixture? :laugh: Keep deluding yourself.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Also LOL @ referring to reconstructions.

[Hamilcar]

Nope, Iranian Mesolithic isn't intermediary between SSAs on a PCA plot, doesn't show any SSA signs in ADMIXTURE runs, and can't be modeled as part SSA, they are simply Natufian+ANE. What's next, Indians have no Onge-like admixture? :laugh: Keep deluding yourself.

key word : shared alleles

ANA itself is a local north african ghost population it didn't came from SSA. Yourself highlighted the fact that we used to be "race mixers". The guy absolutely want us to be black admixed while no papers back up his claims.

[Hamilcar]

Also LOL @ referring to reconstructions.

Of course it doesn't support your claims.

[Ascended]

I imagine them to look like square jawed, bigger boned Horn Africans...

perhaps the Gummuz

https://0.academia-photos.com/26699836/7440241/8361629/s200_binayew_tamrat.getahun.jpg

[Vid Flumina]

That's false their african part is less deep than ANA and ANA was still part of the same tree root as other eurasians.

If anything Shum Laka paper had ANA forking at an intermediate position between East and West Africans from the same branch that leads to modern West Africans.



as if I had it lol here take a quick look :

https://i.imgur.com/OhuEpU9.png
https://i.imgur.com/KMOZ6ry.jpg


Then no means of knowing if Taforalt had even bigger fros without relevant data.

[Zoro]

Nope, Iranian Mesolithic isn't intermediary between SSAs on a PCA plot, doesn't show any SSA signs in ADMIXTURE runs, and can't be modeled as part SSA, they are simply Natufian+ANE. What's next, Indians have no Onge-like admixture? :laugh: Keep deluding yourself.

Exactly, perhaps more Dzudzuana like + ANE + ENA (Onge like) just like Natufians = Dzudzuana+Taforalt