My last update on archeological R1a-M458.

[Rethel]

Actual on 26 IX 2020.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102704&d=1602282049
102704

Another further update about archeological M458. Vikings everywhere. Looking at this, I am starting to more seriously thinking, if my ancestor wasn't coincidently a Siculo-Norman...
============================
Résumé: among 20 cases in 18 places we have 14 Vikings (including one possible), 4 Germans (including those on the slavic border), 1 pre-German Celt and 1 post-Viking Russian. So, the slavicness of M458 is very weak according to this data.
=============================
Added the earliest possible dates (because they make sense).
Red frames = Vikings.
List:
760 BC, Celtic, Singen, Swabia, Germany.
800 AD, Viking, Galgedil, Funen, Denmark.
900 AD, Viking, Sigtuna, Uppland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Kurewanicha, Zalesye, Russia.
900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Frojel, Gotland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Sandomierz, Lesser Poland, Poland.
900 AD, Viking, Ładoga, Gardariki, Russia.
900 AD, Viking, Skara, Western Götaland, Sweden.
973 AD, Viking, Cedynia, Lebusland, Poland.
975 AD, Viking, Ciepłe, Pomerania, Poland, twice.
1060 AD, German? Slavic?, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany, twice.
1158 AD, German, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany.
1100 AD, Slavic (postViking?), Usedom, Mecklenburg-V., Germany.
1200 AD, Norse (sic!), Łuck, Wolhynia, Ukraine.
1400 AD, German-Dutch, Oldenzaal, Overijssel, Netherlands.
1560 AD, Muskovite, Radonież, Moscow, Russia.

[Peterski]

Most of M458 vikings were chąśnicy - autosomally Slavic.

Like Żebrowski in Stara Baśń who was sailing with the vikings.

And here Rethel you can see why autosomal DNA is so important. To be able to see Żebrowskis among viking hordes.

[Rethel]

Most of M458 vikings were chąśnicy - autosomally Slavic.

Like Żebrowski in Stara Baśń who was sailing with the vikings.

Could be. I just described it, as it is described in source.


And here Rethel you can see why autosomal DNA is so important. To be able to see Żebrowskis among viking hordes.

In such cases yes. But not all of Vikings in slavic lands were Slavs.

[GalenStark]

Actual on 26 IX 2020.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=102704&d=1602282049
102704

Another further update about archeological M458. Vikings everywhere. Looking at this, I am starting to more seriously thinking, if my ancestor wasn't coincidently a Siculo-Norman...
============================
Résumé: among 20 cases in 18 places we have 14 Vikings (including one possible), 4 Germans (including those on the slavic border), 1 pre-German Celt and 1 post-Viking Russian. So, the slavicness of M458 is very weak according to this data.
=============================
Added the earliest possible dates (because they make sense).
Red frames = Vikings.
List:
760 BC, Celtic, Singen, Swabia, Germany.
800 AD, Viking, Galgedil, Funen, Denmark.
900 AD, Viking, Sigtuna, Uppland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Kurewanicha, Zalesye, Russia.
900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Kopparsvik, Gotland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Frojel, Gotland, Sweden.
900 AD, Viking, Sandomierz, Lesser Poland, Poland.
900 AD, Viking, Ładoga, Gardariki, Russia.
900 AD, Viking, Skara, Western Götaland, Sweden.
973 AD, Viking, Cedynia, Lebusland, Poland.
975 AD, Viking, Ciepłe, Pomerania, Poland, twice.
1060 AD, German? Slavic?, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany, twice.
1158 AD, German, Wüstung, Sax.-Anhalt, Germany.
1100 AD, Slavic (postViking?), Usedom, Mecklenburg-V., Germany.
1200 AD, Norse (sic!), Łuck, Wolhynia, Ukraine.
1400 AD, German-Dutch, Oldenzaal, Overijssel, Netherlands.
1560 AD, Muskovite, Radonież, Moscow, Russia.


Also a L1029 in La Tene confirmed from Davidski. Iron Age Bohemia. Certainly a shocker. Paper is in peer review. Will be published soon. He was supposedly Scandinavian like. I'm not sure if that is the case with La Tene in France for instance.

[Rethel]

Also a L1029 in La Tene confirmed from Davidski. Iron Age Bohemia.

Have you some link to his post?


Certainly a shocker.

For me not so much, because I was silently hoping for
that as it fits to mine personal history. A little vengence :)


He was supposedly Scandinavian like.

This bohemian one?


I'm not sure if that is the case with La Tene in France for instance.

Yet another one?

[GalenStark]

Have you some link to his post?



For me not so much, because I was silently hoping for
that as it fits to mine personal history. A little vengence :)



This bohemian one?



Yet another one?

Yes. Here is the link. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14215-137-ancient-human-genomes-from-across-the-Eurasian-steppes/page33

He also referenced alot of R1a in BA Slovakia. No confirmation of M458 but wouldn't be a surprise at this point given this IA Czech.

[GalenStark]

Have you some link to his post?



For me not so much, because I was silently hoping for
that as it fits to mine personal history. A little vengence :)



This bohemian one?



Yet another one?

I still think it doesn't really change who it mostly moved with in the migration era. YP417 is an obvious example. We can't forget even if it was East Celtic, they dissappear late iron/early antiquity. So it is likely it was picked up by Slavs somewhere near the urheimat.

There could be clusters that are not entirely affiliated though. Now that we know it was present in Iron Age La Tene. Which ran from 450BCE-50BCE which is close to the TMRCA. I'm of the mind it will split L1029 though. If its close to or on the same level as L1029 in moderns, it would be a surprise. 2020 is full of surprises though. First covid, then Singen and now L1029 in IA Bohemia lolol.

[Rethel]

I still think it doesn't really change who it mostly moved with in the migration era. YP417 is an obvious example. We can't forget even if it was East Celtic, they dissappear late iron/early antiquity.

They could migrate, f.e. to Ukraine.
Celtic settlements were streching as far as Kiev.


So it is likely it was picked up by Slavs somewhere near the urheimat.

On the other hand, medieval conviction was, that Slavs originated in Panonia.
Maybe something is in this. For example, wandering from the east Slavs came
firstly to Panonia, and then spread north, and then south. In this case, they
could absorbed a lot of M458, if it was there after Celts.


There could be clusters that are not entirely affiliated though. Now that we know it was present in Iron Age La Tene. Which ran from 450BCE-50BCE which is close to the TMRCA.

And this also suggests, that M458 hadn't have to be very numerous, which I pointed
not so long ago. It could "waite" for Slavs in quite small numbers, then be slavicized
so hardly, that was stripped from original au, and then grew in number and spread.


I'm of the mind it will split L1029 though. If its close to or on the same level as L1029 in moderns, it would be a surprise. 2020 is full of surprises though. First covid, then Singen and now L1029 in IA Bohemia lolol.

Will be more. But it is also important to take unto account, that it has swedish au. It gives couple of interesting opportunities.
For example Celts from IA in that area had the same au as northeners since corded times??? Or that M458 was in majority from
the north => was brought mainly by germanic tribes to the land between Elbe and Bug, then slavicized and spreading with Slavs.

[GalenStark]

They could migrate, f.e. to Ukraine.
Celtic settlements were streching as far as Kiev.



On the other hand, medieval conviction was, that Slavs originated in Panonia.
Maybe something is in this. For example, wandering from the east Slavs came
firstly to Panonia, and then spread north, and then south. In this case, they
could absorbed a lot of M458, if it was there after Celts.



And this also suggests, that M458 hadn't have to be very numerous, which I pointed
not so long ago. It could "waite" for Slavs in quite small numbers, then be slavicized
so hardly, that was stripped from original au, and then grew in number and spread.



Will be more. But it is also important to take unto account, that it has swedish au. It gives couple of interesting opportunities.
For example Celts from IA in that area had the same au as northeners since corded times??? Or that M458 was in majority from
the north => was brought mainly by germanic tribes to the land between Elbe and Bug, then slavicized and spreading with Slavs.


I was under the impression some of the La Tene samples were very Northern shifted. Remember he is superficially Scandinavian like. Doesn't mean he came from Scandinavia. My guess is a spill over from Lusatia/Pomeranian culture. So it could be more common in the north.

Though, M458/L1029 practiced cremation, and so could give the illusion it wasn't very common as they didn't practice inhumations as often as R1b-L51.

I guess we will know more when he's published and G25 coordinates are created.

[Rethel]

Though, M458/L1029 practiced cremation, and so could give the illusion it wasn't very common as they didn't practice inhumations as often as R1b-L51.

It is only partialy legit. Becasue if culture was burning, then it burned all hgs, not only one.
So, the appearance among not burned persons counts, and should be propotionaly similar to
the real percent. Only when you compare it with other samples from inhuminating cultures you
have a problem, but why on earth we should do this? Every culture should be examined separetly,
and then it will be known, what amount of M458 really was there, regardless the form of burying.

[GalenStark]

It is only partialy legit. Becasue if culture was burning, then it burned all hgs, not only one.
So, the appearance among not burned persons counts, and should be propotionaly similar to
the real percent. Only when you compare it with other samples from inhuminating cultures you
have a problem, but why on earth we should do this? Every culture should be examined separetly,
and then it will be known, what amount of M458 really was there, regardless the form of burying.

Of course haplogroups can do both inhumation and cremation. My point is, M458 shows up in late Hallstatt which coincides precisely with the arrival of cremation rites and Iron weapons.

M458 could have introduced cremation to Hallstatt. If one haplogroup more commonly practiced cremation, they could appear less common on the archeological record than they may have been given the domination of cremation over inhumation. M458 aDNA increases with the Christian era and is hard to find before this. Probably because cremation was dropped.

[Rethel]

M458 aDNA increases with the Christian era and is hard to find before this.

Yes, but there are people who were not creamated in such cultures.
From such people will be dna. And dna taken from such people will be
rather representative for the culture, as people were not burned or not
burned becasue they have such and such hg. So, in my opinion, the
argument about cremation is invalid.

[GalenStark]

Yes, but there are people who were not creamated in such cultures.
From such people will be dna. And dna taken from such people will be
rather epresentative for the culture, as people were not burned or not
burned becasue they have such and such hg. So, in my opinion, the
argument about cremation is invalid.

I get where you're coming from. Of course we will find inhumations. I'm not saying they only practiced cremation. Only that the practice could be linked to M458 in the case of the singen sample who is dated to the period when cremation entered Hallstat(C & D)

[Arūnas]

ok