Artsakh GEDmatch kits

[Peterski]

Has anyone seen kits from there? Are they closer to Armenians or to Azeris?

[Leto]

They are ethnic (Eastern) Armenians if you mean the breakaway republic.

[Halgurd]

Kyp sent me results of someone from Kalbajar, possibly Kurd. Kalbajar used to be a Kurdish inhabited town prior to the war.

Gedrosia 26.32 Pct
Siberian 1.53 Pct
Northwest_African 1.10 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 8.98 Pct
North_European 8.30 Pct
South_Asian 3.32 Pct
East_African 0.46 Pct
Southwest_Asian 11.20 Pct
East_Asian 1.80 Pct
Caucasus 36.82 Pct
Sub_Saharan 0.15 Pct

Distance to: Kalbajar
4.97512814 Kurd_Kurmanji
5.35489496 Azerbaijani_Iran
6.10702874 Talysh_Azerbaijan
6.26396041 Iranian_Fars
6.33586616 Azerbaijani
6.34275965 Iranian
6.41336105 Kurd_Sorani
6.59500569 Zaza
6.86919937 Lur_Iran
7.34924486 Azerbaijani_Turkey
7.80341592 Turkmen_Iraq
8.01295202 Kurd_KAZ
8.13435922 Iran_Khorasan
9.28855748 Turk_Southeast
9.52495669 Iran_Mazandaran
10.72100742 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
11.03460919 Udi_Azerbaijan
12.24245074 Turk_Central_East
12.54068977 Turk_South
12.54666091 Turk_East
13.04973946 Iraqi_Baghdad
13.39550298 Turkmens
13.58177455 Turk_Anatolia
13.69148275 Turk_Central_West
13.75243615 Turk_Central_Black_Sea

[Kyp]

Kyp sent me results of someone from Kalbajar, possibly Kurd. Kalbajar used to be a Kurdish inhabited town prior to the war.


Half yes. But these are Turkish speaking tribes with Kurdish origin possibly. The DNA Result seems to confirm this.
The other side is from Naxcivan.

[Kyp]

It was not a ethnic homogenous region. So Azerbaijanis who got kicked out were closer to Azerbaijanis and were a mix of Turkoman and Kurdish (and possibly some small native) elements.
Armenians are closer to Armenians.

I once made an average out of a couple of Karabakh Azerbaijani results:



Gedrosian: 20.98
Siberian: 3.01
Northwest_African: 0.23
Southeast_Asian: 0.32
Atlantic_Med: 7.75
North_European: 8.71
South_Asian: 2.85
East_African: 0.54
Southwest_Asian: 13.11
East_Asian: 2.89
Caucasian: 39.57
SSA: 0.05


Distance to: Azeri_Karabakh
2.00404591 Azerbaijani_Iran
2.26863395 Azerbaijani
2.72508715 Azerbaijani_Turkey
4.65022580 Turk_Southeast
4.82800166 Kurd_Kurmanji
5.28024621 Zaza
5.91104052 Turkmen_Iraq
6.16195586 Talysh_Azerbaijan
6.38271886 Kurd_Sorani
7.43489744 Turk_Central_East
8.04155458 Turk_East
8.06176780 Udi_Azerbaijan
8.11259515 Turk_South
8.71851478 Kurd_KAZ
8.93606177 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
9.03250242 Iranian
9.04620362 Lur_Iran
9.46456021 Turk_Anatolia
9.66213227 Turk_Central_West
9.81408681 Iranian_Fars
10.74481736 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
11.50973067 Iran_Khorasan
12.01749974 Turk_West_BlackSea
12.22294973 Turk_Southwest

This is an Karabakh Armenian to compare:


Gedrosian: 19.23
Siberian: 0.00
Northwest_African: 0.00
Southeast_Asian: 0.00
Atlantic_Med: 10.57
North_European: 5.33
South_Asian 0.91
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 14.98
East_Asian: 0.00
Caucasian: 48.94
Sub_Saharan: 0.00

Distance to: Armenian_Karabakh
2.86776917 Armenian_East
3.64506516 Armenian_West
5.25417929 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
5.49444265 Turk_East
5.53764390 Assyrian_North
5.65203503 Azeri_Jew
5.77480736 Udi_Azerbaijan
5.95509026 Assyrian_West
6.18546684 Assyrian_South
6.69644682 Georgia_Jews
7.93794684 Turk_East_Black_Sea
8.02727849 Turk_Ahiska
8.04340102 Greek_Pontus
9.02395700 Iranian_Jew
9.04467799 Hemshin
9.07304249 Zaza
9.58815936 Mandean
10.09812359 Laz
10.18032907 Iraqi_Jew
11.06221045 Kurd_Kurmanji
11.23249750 Talysh_Azerbaijan
11.24552355 Azerbaijani_Turkey
11.39826303 Greek_Cappadocia
11.48891205 Turkmen_Iraq
11.51824639 Kurd_KAZ

[Kyp]

Another Azerbaijani originally from Karabakh:

Gedrosian: 20.08
Siberian: 3.43
Northwest_African: 0.00
Southeast_Asian: 0.00
Atlantic_Med: 6.55
North_European: 10.03
South_Asian: 4.03
East_African: 0.68
Southwest_Asian: 12.37
East_Asian: 4.07
Caucasian: 38.66
South_African: 0.11

Target: Azerbaijani_Karabakh
Distance: 1.8366% / 1.83662678 | ADC: 0.25x
65.4 Azerbaijani
11.0 Azerbaijani_Iran
10.4 Kumyks
7.0 Iran_Khorasan
3.0 Yemen_Jews
2.2 Nogai

[War Chef]

Considering how xenophobic Armenians are I'm sure they wouldn't mix with Azers.

Karabakh Armenian is probably similar to Yerevan Armenian IMO.

[FinalFlash]

They're similar to E. Armenians.

[Peterski]

I received via PM one Armenian from Artsakh and one Azeri from Artsakh.

Here are their distances to my averages (for Armenia I have more regions):

Artsakh_Armenian:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
AM_Syunik-Province
0.6660338
AM_Yerevan
0.6924601
AM_Shirak-Province
0.7257541
AM_Gegharkunik-Province
0.7282760
ISR_Armenian-Jews
0.7694901
AM_Kotayk-Province
0.7714817
AM_Vayots-Dzor-Province
0.7716307
TUR_Van-Province-Armenians
0.7881294
AM_Tavush-Province
0.8202323
AM_Lori-Province
0.8684256
IR_Urmia-County:Assyrian
0.8704051
TUR_Trabzon
0.8897230
(...)

Artsakh_Azeri:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
AZE_Azerbaijan
0.6471607
AM_Armavir-Province:Yazidis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidis_in_Armenia#Armavir_Province*
0.7549033
IRQ_Dohuk-Kurdistan
0.7920032
TUR_Kurdistan
0.8047422
TUR_Tunceli-Zazas
0.8260636
IR_East-Azerbaijan:Yarsanis
0.8863425
TUR_Aksaray
0.8900309
TUR_Diyarbakir
0.9175369
AZE_Vartashen:Udins
0.9759144
IR_Talesh-County
0.9820316
TUR_Kayseri
0.9927401
(...)

*Distribution of Yazidis in Armenia:

https://i.imgur.com/vddJ2aS.png

=====

So Artsakh Armenians are probably closest to Armenians from Syunik Province, makes sense as it is right next to Artsakh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syunik_Province

For Azerbaijan I don't have enough regional data, but probably it is like Kyp said.


Karabakh Armenian is probably similar to Yerevan Armenian IMO.

Yerevan came 2nd after Syunik.

[Peterski]

Now I'm curious about Nakhchivan kits. :)

Are they different than regular Azeris?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhchivan_Autonomous_Republic

[FinalFlash]

Some Artsakh Armenian kits

Target: Artsakh_1
Distance: 2.9071% / 2.90712617
41.2 Georgian_Laz
24.0 Iranian_Mazandarani
19.2 Kurdish_Jew
6.2 Armenian_West
3.8 Turk_Meskhetian
2.6 Sardinian
1.6 Saudi
1.2 Mari
0.2 Papuan


Distance to: Artsakh_1
4.83273215 Armenian_East
5.78374446 Armenian_West
6.31510095 Turkish_East
7.03960936 Greek_Trabzon
8.35264629 Kurd
8.99623810 Turkish_Trabzon
9.42683934 Georgian_Jew
9.65736507 Azerbaijani
9.87499367 Iranian_Lur
10.79448470 Turkish_Kayseri
11.05146597 Georgian_Laz
11.57608742 Assyrian
11.80623988 Iranian_Mazandarani
11.81496932 Turk_Meskhetian
12.12604635 Turkish_Anatolia
13.63765742 Iranian_Persian
14.29607289 Turkish_Adana
16.78433496 Azeri_Dagestan
17.05478525 Kurdish_Jew
19.28681415 Lebanese_Muslim
20.11834238 Iranian_Jew
20.55518183 Turkish_Aydin
21.54398524 Syrian
21.96934910 Georgian
23.32690935 Turkish_Balikesir

[FinalFlash]

Target: Artsakh_2
Distance: 0.8259% / 0.82591932
40.8 Turk_Meskhetian
23.6 Iraqi_Jew
14.4 Turkish_Trabzon
8.6 Iranian_Mazandarani
5.4 Kurdish_Jew
4.4 Lezgin
1.6 Abhkasian
1.0 Erzya
0.2 Adygei


Distance to: Artsakh_2
4.21860166 Armenian_East
6.03440138 Armenian_West
6.15059347 Turkish_East
6.74416785 Greek_Trabzon
6.94270841 Kurd
7.62347690 Turkish_Trabzon
9.37851801 Georgian_Jew
10.20789890 Georgian_Laz
10.72112867 Iranian_Lur
11.01651488 Azerbaijani
11.08970694 Turk_Meskhetian
11.45736008 Assyrian
12.16930565 Iranian_Mazandarani
13.09925189 Turkish_Kayseri
14.07903761 Turkish_Anatolia
14.50546104 Iranian_Persian
16.12222069 Turkish_Adana
16.78407579 Kurdish_Jew
17.22731552 Azeri_Dagestan
18.82829785 Iranian_Jew
20.14035998 Lebanese_Muslim
21.49065378 Georgian
22.03125961 Turkish_Aydin
22.66208287 Syrian
23.73675631 Lebanese_Christian

[FinalFlash]

Target: Artsakh_3
Distance: 1.6565% / 1.65646195
47.2 Georgian_Laz
21.6 Kurd
13.0 Iranian_Mazandarani
7.4 Abhkasian
5.8 Saudi
4.2 Kurdish_Jew
0.6 Sardinian
0.2 Papuan

Distance to: Artsakh_3
4.38276169 Turkish_East
4.74691479 Armenian_East
7.42894340 Turkish_Trabzon
7.75403121 Kurd
7.98790335 Georgian_Laz
8.16192379 Turk_Meskhetian
8.40974435 Greek_Trabzon
8.48275899 Armenian_West
10.33079861 Azerbaijani
10.89710971 Iranian_Lur
11.68417734 Iranian_Mazandarani
12.16315748 Georgian_Jew
13.33972264 Turkish_Kayseri
13.79816654 Iranian_Persian
14.03682656 Turkish_Anatolia
14.52925669 Assyrian
14.88842503 Azeri_Dagestan
16.57496305 Turkish_Adana
18.15076307 Georgian
20.04726415 Kurdish_Jew
21.57151131 Abhkasian
21.81437829 Adygei
22.05319478 Turkish_Aydin
22.48477485 Lebanese_Muslim
22.62099467 Iranian_Jew

[Kyp]

Now I'm curious about Nakhchivan kits. :)

Are they different than regular Azeris?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhchivan_Autonomous_Republic

No they are similar:

Result#1:
Distance to: Naxcivan
3.14899984 Azerbaijani_Iran
3.31657956 Azerbaijani
4.17274490 Kurd_Kurmanji
4.69879772 Azerbaijani_Turkey
4.85545055 Turkmen_Iraq

Target: Naxcivan
Distance: 1.3820% / 1.38195820 | ADC: 0.25x
43.2 Kurd_Kurmanji
35.4 Azerbaijani
16.8 Turkmen_Iraq
1.6 Turkmens
1.4 Spanish_Basque
0.8 Hazara
0.6 Korean

Result#2:
Distance to: Naxcivan2
3.36455049 Azerbaijani_Turkey
4.07041767 Turk_Southeast
4.30253414 Azerbaijani
4.55454718 Azerbaijani_Iran
5.01756913 Turk_Central_East

Target: Naxcivan2
Distance: 1.5851% / 1.58512631 | ADC: 0.25x
70.6 Azerbaijani_Turkey
11.6 Turk_East
10.6 Lebanese
3.4 Ossetian
1.6 Azerbaijani_Iran

[War Chef]

Run those "North Atlantic", "west-Asian" %'s on them?

Armenia is weird. Armenians are very little Indo-European genetically (like 3-4%) but Bronze Age Armenians were like 40-50%.

[Leto]

Armenia is weird. Armenians are very little Indo-European genetically (like 3-4%) but Bronze Age Armenians were like 40-50%.
Are you suggesting some kind of white elite in ancient Armenia got diluted almost without a trace?

[Noble Cuman]

Some Byzantine emperors with Armenian ancestry have blond hair and blue eyes according to some historical sources. For example İoannes(John) Tzimiskes was very handsome blond man who seduced empress Theophano. Other one is Heraclius. He was blond too. After defeating Sassanids he triumphed in İstanbul entering city with his long blond hair.
But Armenians today do not have much steppe ancestry. Why? It was much more before. Then it disappeared?

[FinalFlash]

Run those "North Atlantic", "west-Asian" %'s on them?

Armenia is weird. Armenians are very little Indo-European genetically (like 3-4%) but Bronze Age Armenians were like 40-50%.

10-15 steppe on average for Armenians, not 3-4%. And those dead skeletons from the BA located in Armenia today were like 25-30% steppe.

[Leto]

Some Byzantine emperors with Armenian ancestry have blond hair and blue eyes according to some historical sources. For example İoannes(John) Tzimiskes was very handsome blond man who seduced empress Theophano. Other one is Heraclius. He was blond too. After defeating Sassanids he triumphed in İstanbul entering city with his long blond hair.
But Armenians today do not have much steppe ancestry. Why? It was much more before. Then it disappeared?
Well, accounts of white-looking elites exist in many different sources and periods. The old Kirghiz were described like that too. Though today you can still find light people in Kyrgyzstan. The same thing with the rest of Central Asia. Even some Mongolians and Indians can have light eyes (like Ghengis Khan and Buddha reportedly did).

[Noble Cuman]

Well, accounts of white-looking elites exist in many different sources and periods. The old Kirghiz were described like that too. Though today you can still find light people in Kyrgyzstan. The same thing with the rest of Central Asia. Even some Mongolians and Indians can have light eyes (like Ghengis Khan and Buddha reportedly did).

Rashiduddin Fazlullah(Historian that wrote about Genghis khan) said in his book that Ghenghis Khan was red haired man. But it was probably exaggration. Because he was a cruel man who killed a lot of people and Muslims.
I believe Armenians had much more Steppe ancestry before but it disappeared while Kurds in that region still have some.

[War Chef]

Are you suggesting some kind of white elite in ancient Armenia got diluted almost without a trace?

Yep. Unless they left to start Mittani kingdom or got abducted by aliens.

Dilution seems like the most reasonable guess.

[FinalFlash]

Yep. Unless they left to start Mittani kingdom or got abducted by aliens.

Dilution seems like the most reasonable guess.

Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.2636% / 0.02263580
89.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
11.0 RUS_Afanasievo


Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.4835% / 0.02483491
87.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
12.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA


Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.3550% / 0.02355038
89.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
10.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Armenians are 88-89% native and 11-12% steppe admixed, not 3-4% like you initially suggested.

[War Chef]

Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.2636% / 0.02263580
89.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
11.0 RUS_Afanasievo


Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.4835% / 0.02483491
87.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
12.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA


Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.3550% / 0.02355038
89.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
10.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara



Armenians are 88-89% native and 11-12% steppe admixed, not 3-4% like you initially suggested.

Steppe is still 50% CHG, so Caucasian-like west Asian.

[FinalFlash]

Steppe is still 50% CHG, so Caucasian-like west Asian.

Steppe is still PIE. PIE was heavily CHG yes.

[War Chef]

Steppe is still PIE. PIE was heavily CHG yes.

Armenia got their language from the Balkans.

Phoenetially similar to Greek in many ways.

Chances are my ancestors were the proto-Armenians/proto-Phrygs/Proto-Luwians/Proto-Hittites.

[FinalFlash]

Armenia got their language from the Balkans.

Phoenetially similar to Greek in many ways.

Chances are my ancestors were the proto-Armenians/proto-Phrygs/Proto-Luwians/Proto-Hittites.

Nobody knows for sure.

[War Chef]

Nobody knows for sure.

But I know...

[Leto]

Armenia got their language from the Balkans.

Phoenetially similar to Greek in many ways.

Chances are my ancestors were the proto-Armenians/proto-Phrygs/Proto-Luwians/Proto-Hittites.
Don't you think the Gagauz are basically Bulgarian racially? Turkic-speaking Bulgarians.

[FinalFlash]

But I know...

But you really don't. There are a few theories in which that is one of them.

[rss134]

Where did you get all these Armenian samples from different regions and how many do you have for each region?