Are apes' lives sad?

[demiirel]

An ape is a being with high intelligence and self-awareness.

It's life is brought to an end. No one remembers it. It's fate is sealed. Dead and gone, no right to resurrection. It may have suffered 80% of its life, yet nothing is done to make up for its suffering, in other words nothing is done to repay it with happiness. A mere lesser being, allotted darkness, cursed to be tossed around by cruel fate like a worthless plaything. Such are apes.

Wait 90 million years they'll still be fossils. No resurrection. No rectification, no justice.

So let me try and flesh this out:

*No one needs to care for rocks.
*The higher the level of consciousness, the more care a being deserves.
*Care means keeping it happy.
*Apes have a good amount of consciousness.
*Apes clearly suffer.
*Nothing is done for them after they die.
*No one knows what happens to them after they die.
*Therefore their lives suck.

[demiirel]

If indeed this is the way things are, then indeed it is sad.
Clearly it is sad. This is not a wrong interpretation of apes' lives. It is not like the intensity of suffering was exaggerated. Not only was the ape physically hurt, it was deprived of rights, when it lived and died. By deprivation of rights I mean the denial of its legitimate aspirations to a happy life. Physical hurt is an evil. It is not what should be. Deprivation of rights is also an evil. It also is something that should not be.

One could counter and say: But it ate many bananas during its life, slept many cozy sleeps and had many a satisfying mating session.

This is complete nonsense, because apes are deprived of rights from birth. The majority of apes do not eat many bananas, or sleep many cozy sleeps, or have many a satisfying mating session. And even those who do enjoy some comforts nevertheless suffer so much that their happiness is overshadowed.

[demiirel]

Another might counter: But it's the apes own fault. Why did it become an ape? It must have committed some pretty bad sins in its previous life. Plus, it was gluttonous and lazy during its life and very violent too. Serves it right.

This assumes the existence of a system of cosmic justice resembling the Buddhist system. Is there any evidence for the existence of such a system?

[demiirel]

Instances of kids accurately recalling past lives are so rare and possibly fictional that these instances do not constitute evidence. Plus, they usually occur in nations with Buddhist backgrounds. If reincarnation applies to all creatures clearly a greater percentage of humans (from all nations, not only Buddhist ones) should be able to recall something about their past lives.

You could counter: But recalling past lives is not necessary. Contemplating the cyclicality of life should lead one to acknowledge reincarnation.

To which I could counter: But the cyclicalities of life occur within the framework of a linear continuation of time, which is not cyclical.

[Don]

You tell us.

[demiirel]

The reincarnationist could counter: You should consider the possibility of such a system actually existing. True, the history of life on earth is short and past lives as humans would not be possible on Earth before 250,000 BC. But is it not possible that, in the linear continuum of time, there exists many planets produced in many different ages? These planets' lifespan could overlap. So this means that those who lived human past lives before 250,000 BC lived it on another human-inhabited planet faraway in another galaxy or even in a parallel universe. This means that the first human on Earth (who lived in 250,000 BC) had a soul that was transported or teleported from another very distant planet.

[demiirel]

The reincarnationist could counter: You should consider the possibility of such a system actually existing. True, the history of life on earth is short and past lives as humans would not be possible on Earth before 250,000 BC. But is it not possible that, in the linear continuum of time, there exists many planets produced in many different ages? These planets' lifespan could overlap. So this means that those who lived human past lives before 250,000 BC lived it on another human-inhabited planet faraway in another galaxy or even in a parallel universe. This means that the first human on Earth (who lived in 250,000 BC) had a soul that was transported or teleported from another very distant planet.

I would counter: But then one could come up with a thousand different systems of cosmic justice all similarly 'possible' hypothetically. What makes your system necessary? In other words, why should your system be the only true one?

[demiirel]

Reincarnationist: Even if 500,000 people from all seven continents accurately recalled their past lives we cannot be sure that a reincarnatory system truly exists. Who knows, some other being could be planting those memories into their head by some strange means. So how do we know? I guess we can never discover a universal justice system. So we're screwed.

[demiirel]

Me: But at least we know now that what we really want and need and desire is to identify the true universal system of justice if it exists. This alone will comfort us a bit. But boy are the odds against us! Philosophers search and search. Many die without learning what they want. But knowledge remains knowledge and truth remains truth, no matter how many unfortunate souls Fate decides to drag down to a premature mind-death. So I guess we should just keep searching anyway, even if we get nowhere.

[Pallantides]

Forget the apes, I'm more interested in knowing if Kalmyk's are sad?

[demiirel]

Reincarnationist: Very rightly put, sir. I must say I am beginning to enjoy your company.

[Curtis24]

*hugs demiirel*

[demiirel]

Forget the apes, I'm more interested in knowing if Kalmyk's are sad?

Sad or not sad, dead or not dead, the truth remains. And Fate leads us to our allotted place in the future regardless of our knowing or not knowing it.

Kalmyks are sad. Heartbroken actually.

[Pallantides]

Kalmyks are sad. Heartbroken actually.

Tell me more.

[demiirel]

Tell me more.

Kalmyks are saddened by what they see in this world, saddened by the horrendous suffering of human beings.

[Curtis24]

The world would be a paradise, if we could just change!

[demiirel]

George: Yeah right Demiirel. Like you care about other humans. You're nothing but a selfish animal. Just admit it. You want to save your azz so you can live da good life, no?

Demiirel: Well yes I believe I have the right to care about myself.

George: I guess you do.

Demiirel: So why did you say I was selfish?

George: I don't know. I guess I wanted to sound smart.

Demiirel: Yeah, well, whatever. You aren't helping my quest for the universal justice system. Whatever it be, however harsh it might be, as long as I can establish its undoubted existence, I will be satisfied.

George: I see your mind is kinda exhausted. Looks like you can't search any further. If only there were people to give you fresh ideas.

[demiirel]

The world would be a paradise, if we could just change!

But you know we can't change. And this world is hell. :)

[Curtis24]

Some of the time it is, but it can also be heaven.

[demiirel]

Demiirel: So where did we stop off. Oh yes, the impossibility of certain knowledge about universal justice systems.

What is a universal justice system anyway? Maybe there's something inherent in the general definition of a universal justice system that could help us identify the actual justice system that applies to our universe.

First thing that a UJS requires is an Administrator, an intelligent Yahweh-like administrator. A UJS is well-defined and stable, in contrast to Chaos. A UJS doesn't necessarily have to be directly explained to those who come under its jurisdiction.

[demiirel]

Some of the time it is, but it can also be heaven.

Yes, but it ends as hell when each individual dies.

Since God knows everything and feels everything, then he knows how the overwhelming Love or Compassion felt by a human being towards his fellow human beings feels. Like how sons love their mothers. So in God's heart, when a reenactment of human love plays next to a reenactment of human hate, does love triumph in God's heart? If yes, then we have some hope.

[demiirel]

Demiirel: So where did we stop off. Oh yes, the impossibility of certain knowledge about universal justice systems.

What is a universal justice system anyway? Maybe there's something inherent in the general definition of a universal justice system that could help us identify the actual justice system that applies to our universe.

First thing that a UJS requires is an Administrator, an intelligent Yahweh-like administrator. A UJS is well-defined and stable, in contrast to Chaos. A UJS doesn't necessarily have to be directly explained to those who come under its jurisdiction.

A universal justice system is not a product of intellectual calculations alone. The administrator must establish his system based on the leanings of his 'heart' not only his mind. This follows from the close ties that morality has with justice.

So in order to identify the nature of the existing universal justice system, it is necessary to understand the eternal inclinations or leanings of the Administrator's heart. The Administrator will always stay true to the inclinations of his heart.

[Han Cholo]

Did anyone read the first page? :eek: He was truly discussing against himself. He seems to be over-analytical in a bizarre way. No wonder Genghis Khan had great war tactics.

[Boudica]

Lol, wtf?

[Boudica]

Me: But at least we know now that what we really want and need and desire is to identify the true universal system of justice if it exists. This alone will comfort us a bit. But boy are the odds against us! Philosophers search and search. Many die without learning what they want. But knowledge remains knowledge and truth remains truth, no matter how many unfortunate souls Fate decides to drag down to a premature mind-death. So I guess we should just keep searching anyway, even if we get nowhere.
Were "you" just 3 other people? :D

[larali]

Are apes' lives sad?

If they are sad, wouldn't they evolve to be... not sad? If they cared, I mean?

I personally would not want to be an ape, but that is speaking as a non-ape.

[demiirel]

Are apes' lives sad?

If they are sad, wouldn't they evolve to be... not sad? If they cared, I mean?

I personally would not want to be an ape, but that is speaking as a non-ape.

A dead ape is a dead ape and its life is sad. But what if it has an afterlife? And if apes have afterlives, what does that mean for us? The implications concern us directly.

This is a strictly rational inquiry, not a religious one.

[demiirel]

That's why you hear me going on about 'universal justice systems'.

Since science has not observed any kind of supernatural processes or events (relevant to ape afterlives), the only route to finding an answer is via a largely a priori inquiry into the heart of the supreme mind with a view to finding out its leanings.

[demiirel]

A universal justice system is not a product of intellectual calculations alone. The administrator must establish his system based on the leanings of his 'heart' not only his mind. This follows from the close ties that morality has with justice.

So in order to identify the nature of the existing universal justice system, it is necessary to understand the eternal inclinations or leanings of the Administrator's heart. The Administrator will always stay true to the inclinations of his heart.

A: The Administrator (let's just call him God) clearly bases his laws on his emotions. And his emotions must clearly have a benevolent leaning.

B: But how do you reconcile the atrocities of this world with his benevolent leaning heart? I would say his heart does not have a benevolent leaning.

[Magister Eckhart]

:blink:

[Mordid]

You are one crazy fucker.

[research_centre]

I am sorry all I keep hearing myself saying while reading this is ...do I care?

[demiirel]

I am sorry all I keep hearing myself saying while reading this is ...do I care?

True. It's no ape's (and humans') business to be fooling around with these sorts of questions.

But I don't know, I just think that if apes' lives are sad, it means that everything is...well, kinda messed up. Injustice, no, atrocity reigns, forever. It would mean your parents and countless other loved ones suffered and died for nothing.

[Methusalem]

bump

[Siberian Cold Breeze]

A universal justice system is not a product of intellectual calculations alone. The administrator must establish his system based on the leanings of his 'heart' not only his mind. This follows from the close ties that morality has with justice.

So in order to identify the nature of the existing universal justice system, it is necessary to understand the eternal inclinations or leanings of the Administrator's heart. The Administrator will always stay true to the inclinations of his heart.

I believe every specie collect practical ,intellectual ( by that I mean an intellect given to every specie ) and emotional experiences and these are collected on a pool like memory so next generation born with this collected memory we call instinct so they don't suffer for nothing ..They improve.

I don't believe a personal heaven or hell ..We humans also have a pool ,all of our defaults and improvments are going to make up our fate .We will disappear from earth or survive .
Though I think we are not doing a good job on earth ..Soon Mother Nature may decide to get rid of this kind for her own sake.