Closest modern pops to ANE?

[Maguzanci]

It seems to be Uralics like Udmurt, Besermyan and Saami. Followed by the Komi and then some Central Asians like Ishkashimi, Shugnan Tajiks or some NW South Asians like Jatt_Pathak and Ror.

Would this means that Uralics can be sort of utilized as the closest modern day proxy for West Eurasian ancestry in Amerindians (who are around 30-40% ANE maybe even a bit more)?

Distance to: RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.23744202 Udmurt
0.24698981 Besermyan
0.24753963 Saami
0.25200169 Tlingit
0.25912072 Komi
0.26626123 Chuvash
0.26747160 Mari
0.27421520 Tatar_Kazan
0.27646640 Tajik_Shugnan
0.27661263 Jatt_Pathak
0.27805877 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.27867213 Ror
0.27925801 Russian_Pinega
0.28030321 Tajik_Rushan
0.28180172 Finnish_East

Distance to: RUS_MA1
0.17818969 Udmurt
0.18482232 Besermyan
0.19401681 Saami
0.19529404 Jatt_Pathak
0.19728698 Ror
0.19994100 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.20050097 Komi
0.20107315 Tajik_Shugnan
0.20134429 Tlingit
0.20176203 Kho_Singanali
0.20620321 Tajik_Rushan
0.20750233 Tatar_Kazan
0.20834975 Chuvash
0.21079762 Kalash
0.21389561 Punjabi_Jatt

[Aila]

A couple of old pictures to illustrate ...

Udmurt:
https://i.ibb.co/xCCbqjg/Udmurts-1.jpg

Mari:
https://i.ibb.co/xLP8nvB/Mari-Cheremis.jpg

[Maguzanci]

Bump

[Trouble]

If you can’t use ANE to model Native Americans, then you can’t use modern West Eurasian populations to model them either. The drift is huge.

Udmurts and Mari also have EEF type ancestry which is totally irrelevant to native Americans.

[Rethel]

Much better question would be about EHG.
ANE is a bogus, just castizo-like mix between AmerInd and EHG.

[Token]

You will not be able to model Amerindians with any kind of Uralic if you use a serious admixture software such as qpAdm.

[vbnetkhio]

It seems to be Uralics like Udmurt, Besermyan and Saami. Followed by the Komi and then some Central Asians like Ishkashimi, Shugnan Tajiks or some NW South Asians like Jatt_Pathak and Ror.

Would this means that Uralics can be sort of utilized as the closest modern day proxy for West Eurasian ancestry in Amerindians (who are around 30-40% ANE maybe even a bit more)?

Distance to: RUS_AfontovaGora3
0.23744202 Udmurt
0.24698981 Besermyan
0.24753963 Saami
0.25200169 Tlingit
0.25912072 Komi
0.26626123 Chuvash
0.26747160 Mari
0.27421520 Tatar_Kazan
0.27646640 Tajik_Shugnan
0.27661263 Jatt_Pathak
0.27805877 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.27867213 Ror
0.27925801 Russian_Pinega
0.28030321 Tajik_Rushan
0.28180172 Finnish_East

Distance to: RUS_MA1
0.17818969 Udmurt
0.18482232 Besermyan
0.19401681 Saami
0.19529404 Jatt_Pathak
0.19728698 Ror
0.19994100 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.20050097 Komi
0.20107315 Tajik_Shugnan
0.20134429 Tlingit
0.20176203 Kho_Singanali
0.20620321 Tajik_Rushan
0.20750233 Tatar_Kazan
0.20834975 Chuvash
0.21079762 Kalash
0.21389561 Punjabi_Jatt

according to my calculations it's the Ket and Selkup with around 6% ANE admixture.

[Maguzanci]

If you can’t use ANE to model Native Americans, then you can’t use modern West Eurasian populations to model them either. The drift is huge.

Udmurts and Mari also have EEF type ancestry which is totally irrelevant to native Americans.

Would Udmurts, Saamis, Maris still be one of the closest modern pops genetically to ANE though?

I think EHG would be a better proxy than the Uralics as they lack EEF-related ancestry as they are mostly ANE+significant WHG. But as you have indicated, the drift is too huge to model them.

How much EEF type ancestry do Udmurts, Maris have though? 15%?

[Maguzanci]

You will not be able to model Amerindians with any kind of Uralic if you use a serious admixture software such as qpAdm.

Would Uralics and some Central Asians like Tajiks be one of the closest modern population genetically to ANE though?

Im curious.

Also Saamis and Uralics seem to have some EEF ancestry. Do you know how much they have? 10-15%?

[Token]

Would Uralics and some Central Asians like Tajiks be one of the closest modern population genetically to ANE though?
As you can see in your runs, ANE is about as close to Udmurts as Swedes are to Turkmen. So not close at all, but yes they are the closest.


Also Saamis and Uralics seem to have some EEF ancestry. Do you know how much they have? 10-15%?
More or less, yes. They have the lowest EEF of Europe.

[Maguzanci]

As you can see in your runs, ANE is about as close to Udmurts as Swedes are to Turkmen. So not close at all, but yes they are the closest.


More or less, yes. They have the lowest EEF of Europe.

I see. Why are Native Americans so faraway from the ANE in terms of distance runs? Is it because of drift and their heavy East Eurasian ancestry that pulls them further away?

Do you know how much ANE do Uralics have? Is it possible for them to be less than 10% EEF/Anatolian?

Do Yamnaya and other Steppe pastoralists have less EEF than Uralics?

Is it possible to model Amerindians with EHG (I heard that they are mostly ANE+significant WHG) or Sungir/Kostenki using qpAdm?

[Token]

I see. Why are Native Americans so faraway from the ANE in terms of distance runs? Is it because of drift and their heavy East Eurasian ancestry that pulls them further away?
A combination of both. Results wielded by G25 are hardly meaningful for Amerindians though, because G25 is too drift-sensible (it was made with the main purpose of looking at very fine-scale, intra-European substructure). Wonder why Davidski never uses G25 to deal with ancients.


Do you know how much ANE do Uralics have? Is it possible for them to be less than 10% EEF/Anatolian?
It depends on the Uralic. Mansi have as much as Amerindians, while Nganassans in far east Siberia have close to nil.

[Token]

Do Yamnaya and other Steppe pastoralists have less EEF than Uralics?
Yes if by Uralics you mean Finns and Saami.


Is it possible to model Amerindians with EHG (I heard that they are mostly ANE+significant WHG) or Sungir/Kostenki using qpAdm?
I've never tried, but my intuition as a qpAdm user tells me it is not. There is no need to further complicate matters though, we are sure Amerindians are a simple Paleosiberian + MA1 mixture and this hypothesis rests on firm statistical grounds.

[Maguzanci]

Yes if by Uralics you mean Finns and Saami.


I've never tried, but my intuition as a qpAdm user tells me it is not. There is no need to further complicate matters though, we are sure Amerindians are a very simple Paleosiberian + MA1 admixture and this hypothesis rests on firm statistical grounds.

I C. No Im thinking more of Mari, Udmurt. Would Udmurt, Saami have less EEF than Yamnaya and other Steppe peoples?

Thanks for clarifying. Why haven't there been more research into the genomics and formation of ANE though? Like i noticed a lot of people still seem to be confused whether ANE is ancient West Eurasian, East Eurasian or its own unique cluster. And many ppl still thinks Amerindians don't have West Eurasian ancestry (in other words assuming that they are 100% East Eurasian)?

Also I have ask this question many times before but never get an answer: do Amerinds have similar amounts of West Eurasian as the Altaians and Kyrgyz? Also the reason they are plotted more eastern shifted than these two pops in a PCA is due to genetic drift?

[Maguzanci]

A combination of both. Results wielded by G25 are hardly meaningful for Amerindians though, because G25 is too drift-sensible (it was made with the main purpose of looking at very fine-scale, intra-European substructure). Wonder why Davidski never uses G25 to deal with ancients.


It depends on the Uralic. Mansi have as much as Amerindians, while Nganassans in far east Siberia have close to nil.

Ok. Make sense. David never use them for ancient?

How about Saami, Udmurt, Mari? 30-35% ANE?

[Token]

I C. No Im thinking more of Mari, Udmurt. Would Udmurt, Saami have less EEF than Yamnaya and other Steppe peoples?

Yamnaya had about 10% EEF. Saami and Udmurt have about the same as can be seen here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19fU2C2cdSdTYwvWFL2bMuIv5r6zmh5Nw7SbDYqOO4fE/edit#gid=1142599969).


Thanks for clarifying. Why haven't there been more research into the genomics and formation of ANE though?
What is there to be seen? Testing archeological samples and making a paper about it is no cheap stuff.


Like i noticed a lot of people still seem to be confused whether ANE is ancient West Eurasian, East Eurasian or its own unique cluster.
These people haven't read the papers. It is clear that ANE is overwhelmingly derived from a clade basal to Kostenki14 and Sunghir, with an additional of 20% East Eurasian admixture related to Tianyuan.


And many ppl still thinks Amerindians don't have West Eurasian ancestry (in other words assuming that they are 100% East Eurasian)?
So what? These people are simply ignorant about genetics as 99% of the world.


Also I have ask this question many times before but never get an answer: do Amerinds have similar amounts of West Eurasian as the Altaians and Kyrgyz?
I've never looked close into the West Eurasian ancestry of Altaians and Kyrgyz. If they have about 30% West Eurasian, then yes.


Also the reason they are plotted more eastern shifted than these two pops in a PCA is due to genetic drift?
The position of Amerindians in a Global25 PCA is meaningless due to the reasons mentioned before.

[Token]

Ok. Make sense. David never use them for ancient?
No, it was never the purpose of Global25 to test hypotheses involving prehistoric samples.


How about Saami, Udmurt, Mari? 30-35% ANE?
Open the qpAdm spreadsheet that i linked in my post above, multiply the Yamnaya percentage of Udmurts and Saami by the amount of ANE in Yamnaya, and there you have it. Pretty sure it is far less than 30%.

[Maguzanci]

Yamnaya had about 10% EEF. Saami and Udmurt have about the same as can be seen here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19fU2C2cdSdTYwvWFL2bMuIv5r6zmh5Nw7SbDYqOO4fE/edit#gid=1142599969).

Doesn't Koros_HG contain some EEF though? Wouldn't that hide or decrease some more EEF that Saami and Udmurt might have? But this qpAdm also use Yamnaya (around 10% EEF as you have noted) as a source/parent pop for Europeans, wouldn't that also decrease the EEF for Euros including Uralics?


What is there to be seen? Testing archeological samples and making a paper about it is no cheap stuff.

Alright. That makes sense.


These people haven't read the papers. It is clear that ANE is overwhelmingly derived from a clade basal to Kostenki14 and Sunghir, with an additional of 20% East Eurasian admixture related to Tianyuan.

I see. What's the closest modern day population to Kostenki14 and Sunghir? If I remember ANE have slightly more East Eurasian than that- at 25%?


So what? These people are simply ignorant about genetics as 99% of the world.
You are right.



I've never looked close into the West Eurasian ancestry of Altaians and Kyrgyz. If they have about 30% West Eurasian, then yes.

Thanks. I have been asking this question to many people and none ever answer me. Well Altaians are around 25% West Eurasian while Kyrgyz are around 30%. So I guess Amerindians will actually plot close to them if the PCA is not affected by drift and other factors.


The position of Amerindians in a Global25 PCA is meaningless due to the reasons mentioned before.

I see. Thanks for your clarification of this issue. Is it possible to create a PCA using results acquired from qpAdm?

[Maguzanci]

No, it was never the purpose of Global25 to test hypotheses involving prehistoric samples.


Open the qpAdm spreadsheet that i linked in my post above, multiply the Yamnaya percentage of Udmurts and Saami by the amount of ANE in Yamnaya, and there you have it. Pretty sure it is far less than 30%.

I C. Its formal stats that are used to test prehistoric samples right? Would be great if someone can teach people how to use formal stats though but I guess its too difficult and complicated for most.

Ok. Yamnaya are around 50% ANE?

[Token]

Doesn't Koros_HG contain some EEF though? Wouldn't that hide or decrease some more EEF that Saami and Udmurt might have?
Yes but the difference would be very small anyway.


But this qpAdm also use Yamnaya as a source/parent pop for Europeans, wouldn't that also decrease the EEF for Euros including Uralics?
Yes, but it is the only steppe population that works well for Europeans. If you want very precise figures, you wil have to break down the Yamnaya and Koros_HG in deeper components (EHG, EEF, WHG, etc), which is not hard to do if you have a calculator and some free time.


I see. What's the closest modern day population to Kostenki14 and Sunghir? If I remember ANE have slightly more East Eurasian than that- at 25%?
They are firmly in the West Eurasian clade. These populations are so old that it doesn't even make sense to compare them to present-day populations, but the closest would be the West Eurasians in the northern fringes of west Eurasia since they have the least amount of Basal Eurasian admixture, considering that Kostenki14 had none.


see. Thanks for your clarification of this issue. Is it possible to create a PCA using results acquired from qpAdm?
Yes. West Eurasian PCAs with qpAdm are quite common out there, but i've never seen an East Eurasian PCA. That is in consonance with the fact that i've never seen a person using qpAdm that is not West Eurasian by ancestry. As a person of European descent, i don't care enough about East Eurasians to waste my time on such a project.

[Token]

I C. Its formal stats that are used to test prehistoric samples right? Would be great if someone can teach people how to use formal stats though but I guess its too difficult and complicated for most.

That would be a complete waste of time considering that the vast majority can't even use Global25 properly.


Ok. Yamnaya are around 50% ANE?
No.

[Maguzanci]

Yes but the difference would be very small anyway.

I see.


Yes, but it is the only steppe population that works well for Europeans. If you want very precise figures, you wil have to break down the Yamnaya and Koros_HG in deeper components (EHG, EEF, WHG, etc), which is not hard to do if you have a calculator and some free time.

Right. Why doesn't other steppe group work well? I will try but Saami and Udmurt, Mari are still roughly around 10% EEF as you estimated earlier?


They are firmly in the West Eurasian clade. These populations are so old that it doesn't even make sense to compare them to present-day populations, but the closest would be the West Eurasians in the northern fringes of west Eurasia since they have the least amount of Basal Eurasian admixture, considering that Kostenki14 had none.

Would that be Finns and other Uralics like Saami, Udmurt, Mari or some group like Chuvash?


Yes. West Eurasian PCAs with qpAdm are quite common out there, but i've never seen an East Eurasian PCA. That is in consonance with the fact that i've never seen a person using qpAdm that is not West Eurasian by ancestry. As a person of European descent, i don't care enough about East Eurasians to waste my time on such a project.

That's strange. But I think it make sense as people of West Eurasian origin are much more interested in genetics than East Eurasians. In fact, most people of East Asian/any other ENA origin I know, barely know anything about genetics outside of 23andme and gedmatch calculators. Have you seen an African PCA based on qpAdm?

That's ok. Im wondering though that if a Global PCA based on qpAdm results is created, would it still be affected by drift or any other factors?

[Maguzanci]

That would be a complete waste of time considering that the vast majority can't even use Global25 properly.


No.

How much ANE does Yamanya have? I read somewhere that Steppe populations in general are around 50% CHG and 50% EHG. Oh wait I think I confused the EHG with ANE.

[Token]

Right. Why doesn't other steppe group work well?
Archeogenetics is still trying to figure that out.


I will try but Saami and Udmurt, Mari are still roughly around 10% EEF as you estimated earlier?
Yes.


Would that be Finns and other Uralics like Saami, Udmurt, Mari or some group like Chuvash?
No because these have substantial East Eurasian admixture.


Have you seen an African PCA based on qpAdm?
No.


That's ok. Im wondering though that if a Global PCA based on qpAdm results is created, would it still be affected by drift or any other factors?
qpAdm is much less affected by recent population-specific drift.

[Zoro]

That would be a complete waste of time considering that the vast majority can't even use Global25 properly.

Sadly I've come to realize this too.


Im wondering though that if a Global PCA based on qpAdm results is created, would it still be affected by drift or any other factors?

No not affected by drift since qpAdm uses outgroups to mitigate but you still would have to look at other PCs besides PC1 and PC2

So both AG3 and MA1 are HAPLOID genomes meaning that they're not accurate because any actual hetrozygous positions have been genotyped as homozygous. So they're about 30%+ wrong. To make things worse, MA1 has 1x coverage and AG3 something like 0.2x coverage if I remember. People here should familiarize themselves with the concept of coverage if they want to get serious about leaning some basics

It would be immensely more accurate to use DIPLOID genomes such as the 30kya Yana Ancient Siberian which has 25x coverage or the 10Kya Ancient PaleoSiberian Kolyma genome with 14x coverage !! Other DIPLOID ancients that are available are Yamnaya Karagash and Botai and Ust Ishim and Stuttgart and Loschbour.

When talking about genetic similarity you'll get wildly different results depending on the tool used. But more basic than than are you asking maximum IBS similarity or actual IBD decent ?

Luckily ANE is old enough so the confounding factor that occurs with more recent BA genomes is not there. Meaning having to worry about whether the SNP between ANE and test subject is the same due to common ancient origin vs direct decent. Being as old as they are also means that every Eurasian is descended from them to some degree. I think Mansi and Nenets should be up there.


Lastly, you'll get very different results whether you use WGS vs limited number of SNPs from commercial genotyping companies such as 23andMe

[Maguzanci]

Archeogenetics is still trying to figure that out.
I see.


Yes.
Thanks for confirming it. I will still try to break the components for fun.




No because these have substantial East Eurasian admixture.
Would it be Scandinavians like Norwegians, Swedes, etc then?



No.
Alright. Would be nice to see one though.



qpAdm is much less affected by recent population-specific drift.

I see. Would be nice if Davidski can create a Global PCA based on qpAdm.

[Token]

Would it be Scandinavians like Norwegians, Swedes, etc then?

Probably Balts since they have the least amount of Basal Eurasian admixture of West Eurasia. But as i said, it doesn't makes much sense to compare a 40k year old individual with moderns, they will always be drastically different.

[Narration]

If you try to utilize Uralics as the closest modern day proxy for West Eurasian ancestry in Amerindians, the fit will be very bad since Uralics have some WHG and Basal Eurasian which Amerindians lack.

[Maguzanci]

If you try to utilize Uralics as the closest modern day proxy for West Eurasian ancestry in Amerindians, the fit will be very bad since Uralics have some WHG and Basal Eurasian which Amerindians lack.

Would EHG be a better choice as they are mostly ANE derived (but with good amount of WHG)?

True. But Uralics seem to have really low Basal Eurasian compared to most modern West Eurasians.

[Token]

Maguzanci, why are you so insistent in NOT simply using ANE to model Amerindians, when people keep telling you that nothing else will work?

[Maguzanci]

Maguzanci, why are you so insistent in NOT simply using ANE to model Amerindians, when people keep telling you that nothing else will work?

Not really. It just so weird to me that the western ancestry of Amerinds is so unique, and distinct that you can't utilize anything else except ANE.

[Trouble]

Maguzanci, why are you so insistent in NOT simply using ANE to model Amerindians, when people keep telling you that nothing else will work?

ANE does not even seem to work well. They are extremely diverged.

[Token]

ANE does not even seem to work well. They are extremely diverged.

It does works very well. This one is from the recent Yana paper:

Clovis_LP
Malta_UP 0.31 ±0.03
DevilsCave_N 0.69 ±0.03
chisq: 5.56
pval: 0.696

Full output here (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/10/22/448829.DC1/448829-1.pdf).

[Trouble]

It does works very well. This one is from the recent Yana paper:

Clovis_LP
Malta_UP 0.31 ±0.03
DevilsCave_N 0.69 ±0.03
chisq: 5.56
pval: 0.696

Full output here (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/10/22/448829.DC1/448829-1.pdf).

Maybe on formal stats. Not G25.

[Narration]

Would EHG be a better choice as they are mostly ANE derived (but with good amount of WHG)?

True. But Uralics seem to have really low Basal Eurasian compared to most modern West Eurasians.

If you use EHG, you would eliminate Basal Eurasian but EHG is 1:4 WHG and the best fit would still be very distant from Amerindians.

[Maguzanci]

It does works very well. This one is from the recent Yana paper:

Clovis_LP
Malta_UP 0.31 ±0.03
DevilsCave_N 0.69 ±0.03
chisq: 5.56
pval: 0.696

Full output here (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/10/22/448829.DC1/448829-1.pdf).

Clovis are one of those Amerindians who are in the lower ANE range? Do you have models for Karitiana, Mayan or Quechua?

[Synapsid]

It does works very well. This one is from the recent Yana paper:

Clovis_LP
Malta_UP 0.31 ±0.03
DevilsCave_N 0.69 ±0.03
chisq: 5.56
pval: 0.696

Full output here (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2018/10/22/448829.DC1/448829-1.pdf).

Interesting that Yana's Dentalogical metrics is close to Palaeolithic Europeans.

[Token]

Interesting that Yana's Dentalogical metrics is close to Palaeolithic Europeans.
Yana clearly represents an very early eastern migration of European people.

[Token]

Kostenki skull. Look at the rectangular orbits of this motherfucker, Mesolithic Europeans look like wimps compared to him.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRVAuM1m9RBSxl_9KZjKiH4AVZbuJ9 1QE61SA&usqp=CAU

[Synapsid]

Yana clearly represents an very early eastern migration of European people.

Yeah. Its tooth structure is much closer to even Mesolithic Europeans than to Eastern Eurasians, which makes genetic sense despite its geography. Its insane that Europid populations were living so close to Alaska and the Canadian Yukon 30,000+ years ago. This year, they found evidence that human made tools existed in the Americas around 33,000 years ago. They can't have been made by Paleo-Amerind, since Amerind is not a population outliner (a descrite race) that existed around 33,000 years ago, but a biracial product of ANE (Q1) mixing with NE Asians that developed sinodonty (B2, D4, C, A2, with possibly west eurasian X2) around 23,000 years ago. I don't think Austromelanesians lived in N. Americas at that time due to Palaeolithic technology in Sundaland and Aussieland being too primitive for such long distance voyage to the Americans. Ancient North Siberians could have reach the Americas 33,000 despite Beringian Ice sheets blocking the passage, by using rafts along the icy but kelp rich coasts.

[Synapsid]

Kostenki skull. Look at the rectangular orbits of this motherfucker, Mesolithic Europeans look like wimps compared to him.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRVAuM1m9RBSxl_9KZjKiH4AVZbuJ9 1QE61SA&usqp=CAU

They had to be strong and robust, they lived in Ice age Europe. Cro-magnon are easily identifiable by their rectangular orbits+strong jaws. The most distinctive Ice Age Homo Sapien population by skull structure IMO. Euros have the most rectangular obit today but far less than Cro-magnons.
I really wonder where Common West Eurasian/Villabruna really came from? The Balkan refugium seems unlikely since they don't have strong Cro-Magnon features like Gravettians/Soutreans/Magdelanians despite close proximity

[Token]

They had to be strong and robust, they lived in Ice age Europe. Cro-magnon are easily identifiable by their rectangular orbits+strong jaws. The most distinctive Ice Age Homo Sapien population by skull structure IMO. Euros have the most rectangular obit today but far less than Cro-magnons.
I really wonder where Common West Eurasian/Villabruna really came from? The Balkan refugium seems unlikely since they don't have strong Cro-Magnon features like Gravettians/Soutreans/Magdelanians despite close proximity

Let's not lump all Ice age Europeans in the same box. Upper Paleolithic west Europeans primarily hunted reindeers, hyenas, hares and other large and small games. Specialized mammoth hunting was only found in the easternmost extension of the Gravettian culture. You don't need robust bone structure to hunt reindeers and foxes, nets and bows will do the job and not coincidentally Gravettians invented the bow. In constrast the Kostenki people were highly mobile and specialized mammoth hunters. Yana is a good attestation of the mobility - it was a product of Kostenki people following big game through the mammoth steppes. In this case you do need robust bone structure, because you need to spear the animal, and you need quite a bone structure to penetrate the hides of a mammoth.

Upper Paleolithic west European skull weren't nearly as much robust as Kostenki. Take Chancelade as an example. The face is narrow, the gonions are inverted, the orbits are rounded and the glabella is weak. The dental apparathus is fucked up, reflecting his shitty beta diet. Overall, would pass unnoticed in an west European LGBT Pride parade.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Moulage_de_cr%C3%A2ne%2C_Raymonden%2C_Chancelade%2 C_Dordogne.jpg/800px-Moulage_de_cr%C3%A2ne%2C_Raymonden%2C_Chancelade%2 C_Dordogne.jpg

[Synapsid]

Let's not lump all Ice age Europeans in the same box. Upper Paleolithic west Europeans primarily hunted reindeers, hyenas, hares and other large and small games. Specialized mammoth hunting was only found in the easternmost extension of the Gravettian culture. You don't need robust bone structure to hunt reindeers and foxes, nets and bows will do the job and not coincidentally Gravettians invented the bow. In constrast the Kostenki people were highly mobile and specialized mammoth hunters. Yana is a good attestation of the mobility - it was a product of Kostenki people following big game through the mammoth steppes. In this case you do need robust bone structure, because you need to spear the animal, and you need quite a bone structure to penetrate the hides of a mammoth.

Upper Paleolithic west European skull weren't nearly as much robust as Kostenki. Take Chancelade as an example. The face is narrow, the gonions are inverted, the orbits are rounded and the glabella is weak. The dental apparathus is fucked up, reflecting his shitty beta diet. Overall, would pass unnoticed in an west European LGBT Pride parade.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Moulage_de_cr%C3%A2ne%2C_Raymonden%2C_Chancelade%2 C_Dordogne.jpg/800px-Moulage_de_cr%C3%A2ne%2C_Raymonden%2C_Chancelade%2 C_Dordogne.jpg

LOL! I remember years ago, Survive the Jive talked about how Eastern Hunter Gatherers remained robust compared to WHG (who's ancestors would been more robust) because unlike in Epi-paleolithic Europe, Big Game was still common in the open Siberian Mammoth steppes. Most Cro-Magnon-esque skulls locked pretty robust compared to WHG skulls except for some few (e.g. WHG Oberkassal). They have a very distinctive profile, like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon_rock_shelter#/media/File:Cro-Magnon.jpg

Still WHG would have still more build in flesh than EEF i'd imagine, considering that, although Small games hunting was the norm, you need to be strong to survive the Ice age environment of Europe.

[Token]

Still WHG would have still more build in flesh than EEF i'd imagine, considering that, although Small games hunting was the norm, you need to be strong to survive the Ice age environment of Europe.
Bruh. I won't even start...

https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/med/53.jpg

[Synapsid]

Bruh. I won't even start...

https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/med/53.jpg

:icon_lol: The product of nice aegean climate and basal admix.
Interesting to note that most WHG admix in later middle to late neolithic was male mediated (I1 and I2).

[Synapsid]

Early EEF Women most looked pretty gracile med to WHG men however, judging by minoan frescos.

[dududud]

Early EEF Women most looked pretty gracile med to WHG men however, judging by minoan frescos.

Gracile med aka Arabic face. Doesn't exist.

Minoan was not fully EEF, but mixed with Caucasus and iran farmer...

EEF look fully Europeans, neither arabic, neither levantin, etc.

Otzi, etc.

[Synapsid]

Gracile med aka Arabic face. Doesn't exist.

Minoan was not fully EEF, but mixed with Caucasus and iran farmer...

EEF look fully Europeans, neither arabic, neither levantin, etc.

Otzi, etc.

Peninsula Arabs are pretty much Natufians, not Bacin_N like EEF. Gracile Med is a very Euro phenotype. Minoans were not fully EEF, but they were mostly EEF. Minoan women looked very pretty judging from their paintings
https://www.google.com/search?q=minoan+women&rlz=1C1GCEB_enGB924GB924&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvw6TynOXsAhWIilwKHVV7Aj0Q_AUoAXoECBsQA w&biw=1366&bih=657

[Rethel]

The dental apparathus is fucked up, reflecting his shitty beta diet. Overall, would pass unnoticed in an west European LGBT Pride parade.

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

[Mopi Licinius Crassus]

Let's not lump all Ice age Europeans in the same box. Upper Paleolithic west Europeans primarily hunted reindeers, hyenas, hares and other large and small games. Specialized mammoth hunting was only found in the easternmost extension of the Gravettian culture. You don't need robust bone structure to hunt reindeers and foxes, nets and bows will do the job and not coincidentally Gravettians invented the bow. In constrast the Kostenki people were highly mobile and specialized mammoth hunters. Yana is a good attestation of the mobility - it was a product of Kostenki people following big game through the mammoth steppes. In this case you do need robust bone structure, because you need to spear the animal, and you need quite a bone structure to penetrate the hides of a mammoth.

Upper Paleolithic west European skull weren't nearly as much robust as Kostenki. Take Chancelade as an example. The face is narrow, the gonions are inverted, the orbits are rounded and the glabella is weak. The dental apparathus is fucked up, reflecting his shitty beta diet. Overall, would pass unnoticed in an west European LGBT Pride parade.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Moulage_de_cr%C3%A2ne%2C_Raymonden%2C_Chancelade%2 C_Dordogne.jpg/800px-Moulage_de_cr%C3%A2ne%2C_Raymonden%2C_Chancelade%2 C_Dordogne.jpgBest comment I've ever read on TA, [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

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