Proto-Bulgars were an Irano-Caucasian people(?)

[xripkan]

It seems that Bulgarians are modelled not just as Thracian+Slavic but they need an extra Irano-Caucasian reference.


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2213% / 0.02221322
50.2 BGR_IA
33.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
16.6 CZE_Early_Slav


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.3949% / 0.01394875
42.6 BGR_IA
42.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 RUS_Alan_MA

Alan_MA reference is a mix of Sarmatians and native Caucasians. If instead of Alan I use Western Scythians and pure Caucasians the distance is even smaller


Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2370% / 0.01236978
42.6 BGR_IA
35.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
14.8 Scythian_UKR
7.6 Georgian_Imer

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.5536% / 0.01553649
52.0 BGR_IA
35.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Caucasus

It seems quite possible that Proto-Bulgars were similar to Medieval Alans and Sarmatians who lived near Cauacsus and not a Turkic people.

[Mingle]

How do we know it's not influence from Anatolian Greeks? Do we also need these "Irano-Caucasian" components when modeling the neighbors of Bulgarians like North Greeks, South Romanians, and Serbs?

Also, it's "Caucasian", not "Irano-Caucasian". All groups in that region had similar genetics regardless of the language that they spoke. They spoke Turkic language and Turkic doesn't only refer to Proto-Turks, so "Turko-Caucasian" is more accurate.

[xripkan]

How do we know it's not influence from Anatolian Greeks? Do we also need these "Irano-Caucasian" components when modeling the neighbors of Bulgarians like North Greeks, South Romanians, and Serbs?

Also, it's "Caucasian", not "Irano-Caucasian". All groups in that region had similar genetics regardless of the language that they spoke. They spoke Turkic language and Turkic doesn't only refer to Proto-Turks, so "Turko-Caucasian" is more accurate.

Check the models

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6471% / 0.01647125
52.0 BGR_IA
36.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
11.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6018% / 0.01601791
51.6 BGR_IA
36.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.0 Sarmatian_KAZ

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.4366% / 0.01436589
49.2 BGR_IA
38.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
12.2 KAZ_Turk_o

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.8061% / 0.01806104
51.0 BGR_IA
43.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
5.6 KAZ_Turk

They are modelled better with Iranic rather with Turkic ancestry.

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1932% / 0.01193174
44.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
32.0 BGR_IA
19.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
4.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2499% / 0.01249901
37.8 BGR_IA
33.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
28.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1370% / 0.01137012
46.8 HUN_Avar_Szolad
30.2 BGR_IA
20.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
2.8 KAZ_Turk



Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2340% / 0.01234043
39.0 BGR_IA
32.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
27.4 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.0 KAZ_Turk

So you would say Bulgarians have 20% Anatolian Greek ancestry? Do you think it is valid? Even if it is valid what about the rest ancestry? Only 2-3% is the Proto-Bulgar ancestry of modern Bulgarians?
They score even with the Greek Anatolian reference about 5% early Uralic Sarmatian ancestry which lacks from Northern Greeks.

[Kaspias]

Not really, because the same goes for the rest of South Slavs. We need something to make Bulgarians special compared to the rest, yet there is no except known "Eastern" shift.

https://i.ibb.co/9hT3R63/Ads-z.png

[War Chef]

Byzantine influence explains it.

[xripkan]

Not really, because the same goes for the rest of South Slavs. We need something to make Bulgarians special compared to the rest, yet there is no except known "Eastern" shift.

https://i.ibb.co/9hT3R63/Ads-z.png

Bulgarian and Romanians have some BMAC ancestry

Target: Croatian
Distance: 1.3217% / 0.01321655
73.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
22.4 BGR_IA
3.6 Georgian_Imer
0.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 1.2654% / 0.01265405
58.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
30.4 BGR_IA
10.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.3907% / 0.01390689
51.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
41.4 BGR_IA
4.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
2.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.6 Georgian_Imer

Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.4371% / 0.01437123
57.0 HUN_Avar_Szolad
31.8 BGR_IA
9.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.2 Georgian_Imer
0.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2500% / 0.01250032
37.6 BGR_IA
33.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad
28.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2227% / 0.01222679
47.2 HUN_Avar_Szolad
36.4 BGR_IA
11.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia
4.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA
0.4 Georgian_Imer

[xripkan]

Byzantine influence explains it.

We don't have any sources mentioning Byzantine settlements from Anatolia in Bulgaria. On the other hand we know that a people northern of Caucasus and Pontic Steppes moved to Eastern Balkans in Middle Ages. The people that were living in that area were of Irano-Caucasian stock.
There are three sources for the Bulgarian ancestry as we know. We have clarified the genetic profile for two of these sources.
If proto-Bulgars were a Turkic people Bulgarians would be similar to Balkan Turks.

[xripkan]

Not really, because the same goes for the rest of South Slavs. We need something to make Bulgarians special compared to the rest, yet there is no except known "Eastern" shift.

https://i.ibb.co/9hT3R63/Ads-z.png

Greek Macedonians score high Alan because they need a West Asian element to be modelled. What I think is that Balkans and even more Eastern Balkans have Scytho-Sarmatian ancestry. So if Proto-Bulgars were similar to these people, we can find such admixture in Balkans.

[bained]

That's exactly what the preliminary results show: 50% Caucasus and 50% steppe. I can't find a translation in English for you, but here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAL0ssXwgc

[War Chef]

We don't have any sources mentioning Byzantine settlements from Anatolia in Bulgaria. On the other hand we know that a people northern of Caucasus and Pontic Steppes moved to Eastern Balkans in Middle Ages. The people that were living in that area were of Irano-Caucasian stock.
There are three sources for the Bulgarian ancestry as we know. We have clarified the genetic profile for two of these sources.
If proto-Bulgars were a Turkic people Bulgarians would be similar to Balkan Turks.

lol? Marcianoplis, Philipopolis etc.

[xripkan]

lol? Marcianoplis, Philipopolis etc.

Which is the BA Anatolian/Caucasian input from these settlements? Because I think it is Mycenaean-like input.

[War Chef]

Which is the BA Anatolian/Caucasian input from these settlements? Because I think it is Mycenaean-like input.

Nope, most Byzantines were Syrian, Armenian & Anatolian transplants to the Balkans.

[xripkan]

Nope, most Byzantines were Syrian, Armenian & Anatolian transplants to the Balkans.

These cities were not Byzantine settlements. Some of them were ancient Greek and other just hellenized.

[Abriekman]

Not really, because the same goes for the rest of South Slavs. We need something to make Bulgarians special compared to the rest, yet there is no except known "Eastern" shift.

https://i.ibb.co/9hT3R63/Ads-z.png

What about Turkic? Do Bulgarians have higher in comprasion to Yugoslavs?

[xripkan]

I made a model using just Avar Szolad and BGR IA

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 2.2724% / 0.02272392
52.4 BGR_IA
47.6 HUN_Avar_Szolad

I made a reference with exactly 52.4% BGR IA and 47.6% Avar Szolad. I named it Thracian-Slav
These are the closest populations for Thracian-Slav

0.01993818 Macedonian
0.02040195 Romanian
0.02088700 Italian_Northeast
0.02260415 Serbian
0.02272392 Bulgarian
0.02293999 Montenegrin
0.02890949 Italian_Veneto
0.03035555 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03176797 Gagauz
0.03417275 Moldovan
0.03591176 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03651171 Albanian
0.03664630 Bosnian
0.03674883 Swiss_Italian
0.03703217 French_Provence
0.03734827 Italian_Bergamo
0.03904505 Italian_Piedmont
0.03906611 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04136126 Swiss_French
0.04238503 French_Alsace
0.04247746 Italian_Liguria
0.04276696 Greek_Thessaly
0.04285293 Spanish_Mallorca
0.04327289 French_Auvergne
0.04351177 Croatian

I subtracted 80% Thracian-Slav from Bulgarian reference

The closest populations

0.07837091 ARM_LBA
0.07922852 RUS_Alan_MA
0.08028020 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.08265626 ARM_MBA
0.08327337 TUR_IA
0.08443909 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.08477210 ARM_Areni_C
0.08482287 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.08566588 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.08851319 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.08954767 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.09006995 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
0.09047558 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.09093968 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.09374134 Scythian_MDA
0.09453393 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.09484359 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.09564467 HUN_Avar_Period
0.09638623 RUS_Maykop
0.09649750 Scythian_UKR
0.09659849 Yamnaya_BGR
0.09702725 IND_Roopkund_B
0.09727252 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.09739923 HUN_Prescythian_IA
0.09784075 DEU_MA_ACD

and modern

0.06705009 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07178474 Turkish_Rumeli
0.07254896 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07312320 Roma_Madrid
0.07498794 Roma_Porto
0.07555123 Kabardin
0.07587597 Kumyk
0.07626719 Roma_Bilbao
0.07773398 Roma_Barcelona
0.07831464 Cherkes
0.07842341 Roma_Granada
0.07921137 Turkish_Adana
0.07945745 Azeri_Dagestan
0.07983376 Roma_Balkans
0.07989973 Circassian
0.08026525 Turkish_Northwest
0.08036229 Karachay
0.08092535 Turkish_Central
0.08112781 Turkish_Balikesir
0.08263482 Balkar
0.08298067 Turkish_North
0.08354314 Abazin
0.08384533 Turkish_Kayseri
0.08465143 Turkish_Southwest
0.08518015 Adygei

If I subtract 85% this is what I get

0.08966963 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
0.09082353 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
0.09238898 ARM_LBA
0.09473477 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.09542523 RUS_Alan_MA
0.09642162 ARM_MBA
0.09671868 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Historic
0.09704644 TUR_IA
0.09736784 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.09874768 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
0.10486261 RUS_Maykop
0.10560179 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.10618091 ARM_Areni_C
0.10675263 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
0.10774849 KAZ_Turk_o
0.10897039 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.10917836 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.10946460 TKM_IA
0.11034396 Saka_Tian_Shan_o
0.11094016 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.11316474 PAK_Udegram_MA_Ghaznavid
0.11607173 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
0.11610880 RUS_Maykop_Late
0.11712425 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
0.11728130 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res

0.08441165 Roma_Balkans
0.08741504 Kabardin
0.08824075 Roma_Porto
0.08846732 Kumyk
0.08919253 Karachay
0.08929272 Azeri_Dagestan
0.08938476 Cherkes
0.09010662 Circassian
0.09049664 Roma_Granada
0.09128865 Roma_Bilbao
0.09140602 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09167237 Balkar
0.09182314 Turkish_Istanbul
0.09230739 Abazin
0.09311667 Iranian_Fars
0.09449664 Turkish_Adana
0.09515905 Iranian_Seyyed
0.09517031 Roma_Madrid
0.09523831 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.09557587 Turkish_Northwest
0.09566342 Parsi_Pakistan
0.09606174 Turkish_Central
0.09619138 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.09631636 Ingushian
0.09646986 Adygei


For 75% subtraction

0.07346181 Scythian_MDA
0.07419058 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
0.07652350 HUN_Avar_Period
0.07687431 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.07718079 RUS_Alan_MA
0.07746326 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
0.07799211 ARM_LBA
0.07812069 DEU_MA_ACD
0.07816948 ARM_Areni_C
0.07883251 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.08091054 IND_Roopkund_B
0.08120716 Yamnaya_BGR
0.08203668 ARM_MBA
0.08238693 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o1
0.08259129 TUR_IA
0.08340466 Scythian_UKR
0.08498893 HUN_Prescythian_IA
0.08557093 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
0.08602403 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
0.08622943 ITA_Rome_MA
0.08782054 HUN_MA
0.08792319 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.08898316 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
0.08898776 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
0.08959213 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

0.05306103 Turkish_Deliorman
0.05596177 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05925582 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06412009 Roma_Barcelona
0.06445014 Gagauz
0.06706544 Roma_Madrid
0.06817176 Bulgarian
0.07465464 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.07538396 Romanian
0.07538916 Roma_Bilbao
0.07551325 Roma_Porto
0.07571750 Moldovan
0.07650794 Macedonian
0.07676317 Kumyk
0.07697373 Kabardin
0.07783534 Turkish_Adana
0.07808046 Albanian
0.07831509 Serbian
0.07841589 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07876656 Turkish_Northwest
0.07883585 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07904118 Greek_Thessaly
0.07939514 Roma_Granada
0.07948930 Turkish_Central
0.07997697 Cherkes

If anyone is interested I can post the coordinates.

[Zoro]

You guys really need to get together with someone who is proficient in running qpAdm because I’m betting that most of these so called G25 models will fail when put to the test

[bained]

The guy in the video I posted is sharing information from Reich. He said Bulgars are 50% Caucasus 50% late scytho-alanic with closest to Moldovan scythians and alans. Idk why is it so mindblowing to you. The Bulgars lived in the area, of course they will be related to the neighboring populations. If you consider the Armenian chronicles, they lived in the Caucasus for 400 years before migrating west. While the guy on the video wishes there are elites from sibir or altai, he specifically says there are no samples yet with eastern dna. So, turkic theory is dead once and for all. Slavic theory is on its last legs, wonder how will they spin the I2a1 found in EBA https://proizhod.nauka.bg/2020/10/06/news/ . He even says that the slavs on the balkans are from scythian hungary, which were absorbed by slavs before migrating.( wow, just wow). He reccomends using Byzantine and Late roman samples, not Iron age Bulgaria, because there are 1000 years of time difference.

[Vishap]

How do we know it's not influence from Anatolian Greeks? Do we also need these "Irano-Caucasian" components when modeling the neighbors of Bulgarians like North Greeks, South Romanians, and Serbs?

Also, it's "Caucasian", not "Irano-Caucasian". All groups in that region had similar genetics regardless of the language that they spoke. They spoke Turkic language and Turkic doesn't only refer to Proto-Turks, so "Turko-Caucasian" is more accurate.

They spoke Iranic languages. It's possible that some layers of the confederate elite spoke Turkic, but apparently the bulk of them were Iranic speakers.

[Kaspias]

Greek Macedonians score high Alan because they need a West Asian element to be modelled. What I think is that Balkans and even more Eastern Balkans have Scytho-Sarmatian ancestry. So if Proto-Bulgars were similar to these people, we can find such admixture in Balkans.

Check the BGR_MLBA. When you mix it with Balkan_C, you get the HRV_IA. When you mix HRV_IA with Mycen, you get the BGR_IA. Create such a mix, then model it with Avar_Szolad, Anatolian Greek, Mycen. This is the best you can get on Balkaners.

Here I did it by adding Alan and Khazar:


https://i.ibb.co/k38TRjq/0X2.png
https://i.ibb.co/DRFnsTr/025x2.png
https://i.ibb.co/s1cf5rR/final.png


I doubt Alan and Turk means anything in this case.

[Token]

You guys really need to get together with someone who is proficient in running qpAdm because I’m betting that most of these so called G25 models will fail when put to the test

It is not even possible to model most Balkanites with qpAdm at the moment, and i've spent nights trying. The only one that worked were Bulgarians (with BGR_IA + Slavic) and Greeks (with Myceanaean + Slavic), but even then the fits were quite poor because there was probably some admixture events with Anatolians in Byzantine era. All of the others failed (i've not tried Serbians though), because the samples are insufficient atm. Not even Croatians could be modelled using the avaiable local samples, and i've tried all possible scenarios that you can imagine. So pretty much all of the models we see in this thread are utter failures.

[Zoro]

It is not even possible to model most Balkanites with qpAdm at the moment, and i've spent nights trying. The only one that worked were Bulgarians (with BGR_IA + Slavic) and Greeks (with Myceanaean + Slavic), but even then the fits were quite poor because there was probably some admixture events with Anatolians in Byzantine era. All of the others failed (i've not tried Serbians though), because the samples are insufficient atm. Not even Croatians could be modelled using the avaiable local samples, and i've tried all possible scenarios that you can imagine. So pretty much all of the models we see in this thread are utter failures.

If you post the raw output from one of the runs i can give you some good tips how to make it work. I’ve been taught by an expert in using it.

[Chelubey]

So, turkic theory is dead once and for all.
:picard2:
In the Volga region the descendants of the Bulgars are Chuvash and Tatars, in the Caucasus - Balkars, in the Balkans -nobody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria

[Leto]

:picard2:
In the Volga region the descendants of the Bulgars are Chuvash and Tatars, in the Caucasus - Balkars, in the Balkans -nobody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria
Balkars? Why do you think so? The Karachay-Balkars are autosomally barely different from the Kabardians. Maybe there are some Y-DNA differences but nonetheless both groups are native NW Caucasians with some Mongoloid input (which the Ossetians also show by the way).

[Chelubey]

Balkars? Why do you think so? The Karachay-Balkars are autosomally barely different from the Kabardians. Maybe there are some Y-DNA differences but nonetheless both groups are native NW Caucasians with some Mongoloid input (which the Ossetians also show by the way).

Too long to explain. But...
Balkars are Caucasian genetics plus many Turkic haplogroups (Ra1-z-93) : Caucasians + Iranians- (Baned's interpretation).
Also Tatars have a Caucasian influence (haplogroups + anthropology). Possibly the modern Balkan Bulgarians will least of all resemble the descendants of the ancient Bulgarians (among other contenders)

[Leto]

Too long to explain. But...
Balkars are Caucasian genetics plus many Turkic haplogroups (Ra1-z-93) : Caucasians + Iranians- (Baned's interpretation).
Also Tatars have a Caucasian influence (haplogroups + anthropology). Possibly the modern Balkan Bulgarians will least of all resemble the descendants of the ancient Bulgarians (among other contenders)
Well, linguistically the Karachay-Balkars are close to the Kumyks, both are Western Kipchaks.

[Chelubey]

Well, linguistically the Karachay-Balkars are close to the Kumyks, both are Western Kipchaks.

В 1183 г. владимирский князь Всеволод перед походом "на Булгары" сообщил киевскому князю Святославу: “Половцев же призывать не хочу, ибо они с болгары язык и род един
https://proza.ru/2012/11/16/324

[bained]

:picard2:
In the Volga region the descendants of the Bulgars are Chuvash and Tatars, in the Caucasus - Balkars, in the Balkans -nobody.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria

The surviving agricultural population was forced to leave the steppe lands. The majority settled along the Kama river and in adjacent areas further north. The area around Kazan, which was settled by Mari people some years before, became the nucleus of the ("Kazan Tatar") population.

A large part of the region's population included Turkic groups such as Sabirs, Barsil, Bilars, Baranjars, and part of the obscure[15] Burtas (by ibn Rustah). Modern Chuvashes claim to descend from Sabirs and Kazan Tatars from the Volga Bulgars.[16]

Another part comprised Volga Finnic and Magyar (Asagel and Pascatir) tribes, from which Bisermäns probably descend.[17] Ibn Fadlan refers to Volga Bulgaria as Saqaliba, a general Arabic term for Slavic people. Other researches tie the term to the ethnic name Scythian (or Saka in Persian).[18]

According to some historians[citation needed], over 80% of the country's population was killed[citation needed] during the invasion. The remaining population mostly relocated to the northern areas.

Some Volga Bulgars, primarily masters and craftsmen, were forcibly moved to Sarai and other southern cities of the Golden Horde. Volga Bulgaria remained a center of agriculture and handicraft

Do you even read your link?

[Chelubey]

Do you even read your link?
What's wrong?


The area around Kazan, which was settled by Mari people some years before, became the nucleus of the ("Kazan Tatar") population.

I can't find this quote there.


According to some historians[citation needed], over 80% of the country's population was killed[citation needed] during the invasion. The remaining population mostly relocated to the northern areas.

There is no objective data for such conclusions (citation needed)

[PAGANE]

[ЦИТАТА = Челубей; 6969726] :picard2:
В Поволжието потомците на българите са чуваши и татари, в Кавказ - Балкари, на Балканите - никой.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria [/ QUOTE]

On what basis are these allegations? Historical ?, Genetic? or other?
How did you prove that Chuvash, Tatars / which Tatars? / And Balkars are descendants of the ancient Bulgarians? If it is with genetic research, what ancient Bulgarian samples did you compare?
If it is from a historical or cultural aspect, what do you compare?

[xripkan]

Check the BGR_MLBA. When you mix it with Balkan_C, you get the HRV_IA. When you mix HRV_IA with Mycen, you get the BGR_IA. Create such a mix, then model it with Avar_Szolad, Anatolian Greek, Mycen. This is the best you can get on Balkaners.

Here I did it by adding Alan and Khazar:


https://i.ibb.co/k38TRjq/0X2.png
https://i.ibb.co/DRFnsTr/025x2.png
https://i.ibb.co/s1cf5rR/final.png


I doubt Alan and Turk means anything in this case.

Ok but my question still exists. If Proto-Bulgars were Turkic even a 10-15% input to modern Bulgarians would make them plotting with Balkan Turks, right?
I find more possible they were a Western Iranic group. Such admixture existed already in Balkans.

[Kaspias]

Ok but my question still exists. If Proto-Bulgars were Turkic even a 10-15% input to modern Bulgarians would make them plotting with Balkan Turks, right?
I find more possible they were a Western Iranic group. Such admixture existed already in Balkans.

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

[Crn Volk]

Well, if Turkic admixture preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

Ouch!

[bained]

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

Stop the drugs kid.

[Chelubey]

Ok but my question still exists. If Proto-Bulgars were Turkic even a 10-15% input to modern Bulgarians would make them plotting with Balkan Turks, right?

Wrong. This means that the modern Balkan Slavic people (called "Bulgars") have no genetic relationship with the Turkic proto-Bulgars.
I think that even modern Kazan Tatars have no more than 25-30% of genetics of the Proto-Bulgarians. The rest part of their genetics are other Turkic and non-Turkic groups.
We must also reasonably assume that the "Proto-Bulgars" were not a monolithic genetic group, since we do not know exactly when and how this ethnos arose.

[Dick]

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

+1

[PAGANE]

This is nonsense. Not only are there Bulgarians, but most of the liberation movements start from central and eastern Bulgaria.

[PAGANE]

Again, I ask on what basis are your allegations. Only for information - genetic research of proto-Bulgarians is not yet available. Only now is Harvard's study beginning. Not only is it not known when they originated, but also where. So please stop speculating. Let the research of proto-Bulgarians come out. Let these studies be compared with modern Bulgarians and then to comment and make assumptions

[Chelubey]

Again, I ask on what basis are your allegations. Only for information - genetic research of proto-Bulgarians is not yet available. Only now is Harvard's study beginning. Not only is it not known when they originated, but also where. So please stop speculating. Let the research of proto-Bulgarians come out. Let these studies be compared with modern Bulgarians and then to comment and make assumptions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars#Anthropology_and_genetics


The paleoanthropological material from all sites in Volga region, Ukraine and Moldova attributed to the Bulgars testify complex ethno-cultural processes.[213] The material shows the assimilation between the local population and the migrating newcomers.[204] In all sites can be traced the anthropological type found in the Zlivka necropolis near the village of Ilichevki, the district of Donetsk, of brachiocranic Caucasoid with small East Asian admixtures but with Bulgar males being more Mongoloid than females.[214][204][213] Despite the morphological proximity, there is a visible impact of the local population, in the Volga region of Finno-Ugric and ancient Turkic, in Ukraine of Sarmatian-Alans, and in Moldova of Slavic people.[213] The comparative analysis showed large morphological proximity between the medieval and modern population of the Volga region.[213] The examined graves in Northern Bulgaria and Southern Romania showed different somatic types, including Caucasoid-Mediterranean and less often East Asian.[167]

[Kaspias]

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

Eastern Bulgaria has a definitive Turkish majority with a ratio of 80% to 20%. IRO was present in regions such as Dobruja and Edirne because Bulgarian officers were well organized and trained by Russians, while Turks were a bunch of villagers.


Also, just to prove what I had stated:


https://i.ibb.co/HgmDpQ7/Ads-z.png

Dodecad K12b comparison of two populations:

https://i.ibb.co/7R99L82/K12B.png

And let's look at the newly coming Proto-Bulgar article by Stamov that PAGANE mentions:


-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .


1- What is "a distinct Caucasus signal?" He uses Vahaduo(this is also funny btw) to make such conclusions, what did he see? 10 Distance to Alans or something?
2- How Proto-Bulgarians can be close to the THRACIANS?
3- How you concluded they are Sarmatians?


-The military leader Q-sample is Paleo-Siberian, found among Ket people."Autosomally connected to Scythians and Alan-Sarmatians...with native Caucasus admix".Reburial in a Neolithic site actually, around Tarnovo.


Well, it is Q-L330, which is Hunnic.

The Alan L330 which I posted before in this forum was an outlier, and his admixture was actually Bashkir-like. So, it has nothing to do with Sarmatians or actual Alans.


-No Neolithic or appreciable Thracian autos. (0-10%) component in contemporary Bulgarians.


Interesting... Claiming Eastern Roman heritage up to 30%, yet 0-10% Thracian at the same time. That's probably because he considered Scythian Moldovans as Proto-Bulgars, while they are Thracians.

I mean, me, being all of my ancestors are from Thrace, have only 0-10% Thracian?


You can check all the notes from the work here
(https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?329843-%26%231048%3B%26%231079%3B%26%231089%3B%26%231083% 3B%26%231077%3B%26%231076%3B%26%231074%3B%26%23107 2%3B%26%231085%3B%26%231077%3B-%26%231085%3B%26%231072%3B-%26%231075%3B%26%231077%3B%26%231085%3B%26%231077% 3B%26%231090%3B%26%231080%3B%26%231094%3B%26%23108 0%3B-%26%231086%3B%26%231090%3B-%26%231061%3B%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231074% 3B%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231076%3B-%26%231080%3B-%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231093%3B%26%231077% 3B-1086&p=6969446&viewfull=1#post6969446)


So yes, what we see here is this research was done by someone who is highly biased or not qualified enough to carry out it. In this sense, it is also wrong to expect that this article will make a contribution to what we know. Perhaps it can work if he decides to share all the data publicly yet what he will write in the article already will manipulate people.

[Crn Volk]

Eastern Bulgaria has a definitive Turkish majority with a ratio of 80% to 20%. IRO was present in regions such as Dobruja and Edirne because Bulgarian officers were well organized and trained by Russians, while Turks were a bunch of villagers.


Also, just to prove what I had stated:


https://i.ibb.co/HgmDpQ7/Ads-z.png

Dodecad K12b comparison of two populations:

https://i.ibb.co/7R99L82/K12B.png

And let's look at the newly coming Proto-Bulgar article by Stamov that PAGANE mentions:



1- What is "a distinct Caucasus signal?" He uses Vahaduo(this is also funny btw) to make such conclusions, what did he see? 10 Distance to Alans or something?
2- How Proto-Bulgarians can be close to the THRACIANS?
3- How you concluded they are Sarmatians?



Well, it is Q-L330, which is Hunnic.

The Alan L330 which I posted before in this forum was an outlier, and his admixture was actually Bashkir-like. So, it has nothing to do with Sarmatians or actual Alans.



Interesting... Claiming Eastern Roman heritage up to 30%, yet 0-10% Thracian at the same time. That's probably because he considered Scythian Moldovans as Proto-Bulgars, while they are Thracians.

I mean, me, being all of my ancestors are from Thrace, have only 0-10% Thracian?


You can check all the notes from the work here
(https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?329843-%26%231048%3B%26%231079%3B%26%231089%3B%26%231083% 3B%26%231077%3B%26%231076%3B%26%231074%3B%26%23107 2%3B%26%231085%3B%26%231077%3B-%26%231085%3B%26%231072%3B-%26%231075%3B%26%231077%3B%26%231085%3B%26%231077% 3B%26%231090%3B%26%231080%3B%26%231094%3B%26%23108 0%3B-%26%231086%3B%26%231090%3B-%26%231061%3B%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231074% 3B%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231076%3B-%26%231080%3B-%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231093%3B%26%231077% 3B-1086&p=6969446&viewfull=1#post6969446)


So yes, what we see here is this research was done by someone who is highly biased or not qualified enough to carry out it. In this sense, it is also wrong to expect that this article will make a contribution to what we know. Perhaps it can work if he decides to share all the data publicly yet what he will write in the article already will manipulate people.

Sounds more like a politically motivated study trying to prove a point.

[andre]

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

Well, the moldovan scythians are not only thracian like (ex. Scy192, scy305, scy300, scy197), but there are two samples more asian-shifted.

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy311
0.04065193 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04783381 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06009270 Roma_Barcelona
0.06343789 Gagauz
0.06406279 Bulgarian
0.06451394 Romanian
0.06644826 Swiss_Italian
0.06775612 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06862530 Montenegrin
0.06889821 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06898058 Moldovan
0.06910681 Italian_Northeast
0.06980787 Macedonian
0.07137195 French_Provence
0.07143148 Albanian
0.07155667 Greek_Thessaly
0.07243930 Serbian
0.07316362 Italian_Piedmont
0.07366443 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07388090 Italian_Veneto
0.07457727 Italian_Tuscany
0.07514633 Roma_Madrid
0.07564975 Italian_Umbria
0.07604141 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07611268 Bosnian

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy301
0.04357339 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04577565 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06536218 Moldovan
0.06729413 Gagauz
0.06785819 Romanian
0.06819800 Bulgarian
0.06835725 Roma_Barcelona
0.07013325 Montenegrin
0.07335104 Bosnian
0.07351854 Serbian
0.07415409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07467519 Macedonian
0.07518542 Afrikaner
0.07571329 Austrian
0.07579726 Hungarian
0.07763240 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07779912 Croatian
0.07810003 Turkish_Northwest
0.07856227 Italian_Northeast
0.07957177 French_Alsace
0.07969455 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08030076 Belgian
0.08032561 Moldovan_o
0.08036335 French_Provence
0.08075326 French_Nord

Without turkish averages, which make overfitting..

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy301
Distance: 2.9363% / 0.02936285 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Montenegrin
23.2 Afrikaner
17.6 Kumyk
14.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
5.8 Tajik_Rushan
5.0 Roma_Barcelona
3.4 Tatar_Kazan
1.8 Tabasaran

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy311
Distance: 3.2462% / 0.03246210 | ADC: 0.5x
26.0 Swiss_Italian
20.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
18.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
14.0 Roma_Barcelona
11.6 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
10.2 Montenegrin

With this model:


Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.0 57494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087 336,0.030547,0.01615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008 799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094 444,0.017348,0.004522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.0060 34,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1982% / 0.01198187
42.8 Slav
24.6 Roman
22.4 Thracian
10.2 Proto_Bulgarian

[Kaspias]

-Proto-Bulgarians "late Sarmatic people with distinct Caucasus signal", "closest to Moldova Scythians" .

Well, the moldovan scythians are not only thracian like (ex. Scy192, scy305, scy300, scy197), but there are two samples more asian-shifted.

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy311
0.04065193 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04783381 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06009270 Roma_Barcelona
0.06343789 Gagauz
0.06406279 Bulgarian
0.06451394 Romanian
0.06644826 Swiss_Italian
0.06775612 Turkish_Istanbul
0.06862530 Montenegrin
0.06889821 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.06898058 Moldovan
0.06910681 Italian_Northeast
0.06980787 Macedonian
0.07137195 French_Provence
0.07143148 Albanian
0.07155667 Greek_Thessaly
0.07243930 Serbian
0.07316362 Italian_Piedmont
0.07366443 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.07388090 Italian_Veneto
0.07457727 Italian_Tuscany
0.07514633 Roma_Madrid
0.07564975 Italian_Umbria
0.07604141 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.07611268 Bosnian

Distance to: Scythian_MDA:scy301
0.04357339 Turkish_Rumeli
0.04577565 Turkish_Deliorman
0.06536218 Moldovan
0.06729413 Gagauz
0.06785819 Romanian
0.06819800 Bulgarian
0.06835725 Roma_Barcelona
0.07013325 Montenegrin
0.07335104 Bosnian
0.07351854 Serbian
0.07415409 Turkish_Istanbul
0.07467519 Macedonian
0.07518542 Afrikaner
0.07571329 Austrian
0.07579726 Hungarian
0.07763240 Turkish_Balikesir
0.07779912 Croatian
0.07810003 Turkish_Northwest
0.07856227 Italian_Northeast
0.07957177 French_Alsace
0.07969455 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.08030076 Belgian
0.08032561 Moldovan_o
0.08036335 French_Provence
0.08075326 French_Nord

Without turkish averages, which make overfitting..

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy301
Distance: 2.9363% / 0.02936285 | ADC: 0.5x
29.0 Montenegrin
23.2 Afrikaner
17.6 Kumyk
14.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
5.8 Tajik_Rushan
5.0 Roma_Barcelona
3.4 Tatar_Kazan
1.8 Tabasaran

Target: Scythian_MDA:scy311
Distance: 3.2462% / 0.03246210 | ADC: 0.5x
26.0 Swiss_Italian
20.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
18.2 Italian_Aosta_Valley
14.0 Roma_Barcelona
11.6 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
10.2 Montenegrin

With this model:


Thracian:BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861
Slav:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0.0 57494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.004295,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Roman:ITA_Rome_Imperial,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087 336,0.030547,0.01615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008 799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Proto_Bulgarian:Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094 444,0.017348,0.004522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.0060 34,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1982% / 0.01198187
42.8 Slav
24.6 Roman
22.4 Thracian
10.2 Proto_Bulgarian


Yes, this should be the model he used.

But...

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 2.5812% / 0.02581214 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Proto_Bulgarian
27.0 Roman
11.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Slav
0.0 Thracian

SCY301 has a Turkic-like admixture, Scy311 has an Iranic-like admixture. Both are related to some type of Scythians/Cimmerians and one generation mixed in the region, probably. These are irrelevant with Proto-Bulgars in any chance.

[Ion Basescul]

Yes, this should be the model he used.

But...

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 2.5812% / 0.02581214 | ADC: 0.25x
61.4 Proto_Bulgarian
27.0 Roman
11.6 TUR_Ottoman
0.0 Slav
0.0 Thracian

SCY301 has a Turkic-like admixture, Scy311 has an Iranic-like admixture. Both are related to some type of Scythians/Cimmerians and one generation mixed in the region, probably. These are irrelevant with Proto-Bulgars in any chance.

xripkan had the answer to his question like 1-2 years ago from me on Anthrogenica and knows that this is due to some farmers from Bulgaria like Krepost_N and some Peloponese_N farmers in Greece scoring noticeable Iran_N admixture as opposed to classical Anatolian farmers. It's probably linked to the same wave that went to Italy, since that phenomenon is also present there. It doesn't have any connection to proto-Bulgars since it's linked to events that happened at least 9000 years prior to that. He's just trolling you guys.

[Ion Basescul]

Eastern Bulgaria has a definitive Turkish majority with a ratio of 80% to 20%. IRO was present in regions such as Dobruja and Edirne because Bulgarian officers were well organized and trained by Russians, while Turks were a bunch of villagers.


Also, just to prove what I had stated:




Dodecad K12b comparison of two populations:

https://i.ibb.co/7R99L82/K12B.png

And let's look at the newly coming Proto-Bulgar article by Stamov that PAGANE mentions:



1- What is "a distinct Caucasus signal?" He uses Vahaduo(this is also funny btw) to make such conclusions, what did he see? 10 Distance to Alans or something?
2- How Proto-Bulgarians can be close to the THRACIANS?
3- How you concluded they are Sarmatians?



Well, it is Q-L330, which is Hunnic.

The Alan L330 which I posted before in this forum was an outlier, and his admixture was actually Bashkir-like. So, it has nothing to do with Sarmatians or actual Alans.



Interesting... Claiming Eastern Roman heritage up to 30%, yet 0-10% Thracian at the same time. That's probably because he considered Scythian Moldovans as Proto-Bulgars, while they are Thracians.

I mean, me, being all of my ancestors are from Thrace, have only 0-10% Thracian?


You can check all the notes from the work here
(https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?329843-%26%231048%3B%26%231079%3B%26%231089%3B%26%231083% 3B%26%231077%3B%26%231076%3B%26%231074%3B%26%23107 2%3B%26%231085%3B%26%231077%3B-%26%231085%3B%26%231072%3B-%26%231075%3B%26%231077%3B%26%231085%3B%26%231077% 3B%26%231090%3B%26%231080%3B%26%231094%3B%26%23108 0%3B-%26%231086%3B%26%231090%3B-%26%231061%3B%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231074% 3B%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231076%3B-%26%231080%3B-%26%231072%3B%26%231088%3B%26%231093%3B%26%231077% 3B-1086&p=6969446&viewfull=1#post6969446)


So yes, what we see here is this research was done by someone who is highly biased or not qualified enough to carry out it. In this sense, it is also wrong to expect that this article will make a contribution to what we know. Perhaps it can work if he decides to share all the data publicly yet what he will write in the article already will manipulate people.

Aren't Bulgarian Turks from Anatolia originally though and heavily admixed with Bulgarians? Or are you implying that they are original Bulgars from which Bulgarians took the name?
I know that Gagauz must be the exception to the origin from Anatolia due to their Y-DNA not reflecting these patterns found in Anatolia, and them also barely scoring any East Asian/Siberian.

[Kaspias]

xripkan had the answer to his question like 1-2 years ago from me on Anthrogenica and knows that this is due to some farmers from Bulgaria like Krepost_N and some Peloponese_N farmers in Greece scoring noticeable Iran_N admixture as opposed to classical Anatolian farmers. It's probably linked to the same wave that went to Italy, since that phenomenon is also present there. It doesn't have any connection to proto-Bulgars since it's linked to events that happened at least 9000 years prior to that. He's just trolling you guys.

Yes, even after N there are some other routes in which additional Iran_N can be carried to the region. But Proto-Bulgar is not one of these, because all the neighboring populations score similar amounts except for Turks. He tries to deep dive into possibilities, this is not wrong. The actual troll is making a conclusion about Proto-Bulgars by looking at modern Bulgarians who don't have an additional admixture compared to other South Slavs.


Aren't Bulgarian Turks from Anatolia originally though and heavily admixed with Bulgarians? Or are you implying that they are original Bulgars from which Bulgarians took the name?
I know that Gagauz must be the exception to the origin from Anatolia due to their Y-DNA not reflecting these patterns found in Anatolia, and them also barely scoring any East Asian/Siberian.


Balkan Turks are a mix of Oghuz Turks who came from Anatolia(without Anatolian admix, in the nomadic form), Tatars, and Anatolian Turks who settled after the 1600s. (See: Celali Rebellions) The region called Deliorman(also where Gagauz came from) is known as having a special Turkic culture, could be either Cuman or Proto-Bulgar. On the other hand, some regions in Thrace and Macedonia also known as Cuman settlements. Eventually, it might consist of all of the groups mentioned above and what we see here is like 80-85% Balkan and 15-20% Central Asian on average. -Anatolian admixture seems to be absorbed- Another point is these people melted in the same pot and it is not possible to make a conclusion by looking at Turkic populations they get. I mean, Oghuz already mixed with Kipchak, and Oghuz & Kipchak already mixed with Proto-Bulgar(if there are)... So, there is actually a chance that the language shift of Gagauz can be about Proto-Bulgars. Turks from Deliorman known in the same way among the local people.


Briefly, I'm implying Proto-Bulgar admixture is not present in the Balkans, yet even if we presume it is preserved in some way, it would be among Balkan Turks. Because:

1- Eastern Bulgaria, where Proto-Bulgars settled, was a Turkish region before the Russo-Turkish War. The Bulgars who had lived there mixed with Turks. Most of the Bulgarians who live in the East now came from the West during Communism.
2- Among all the Balkan ethnics, only Turks and some Romanian individuals have elevated Gedrosia/East Eurasian. Bulgarians are not different than the rest of the South Slavs.

Why not Gagauz?

Also in Gagauz, but they mixed with other Christians(Slavic Bulgarians, Greeks) and EE lowered eventually.

[Ion Basescul]

The region called Deliorman(also where Gagauz came from) is known as having a special Turkic culture, could be either Cuman or Proto-Bulgar.

Is the name linked to the Romanian county of Teleorman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleorman_County), which borders Bulgaria?

People there are similar genetically to the Gagauz.

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Name
Number of Samples
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Moldova_Gagauzia
10
19.56
22.60
18.18
13.67
20.38
2.04
0.78
0.56
1.06
0.26
0.40
0.36
0.15

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Name
Number of Samples
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman
12
21.55
22.98
17.68
11.44
20.38
2.69
0.60
0.57
0.87
0.55
0.65
0.00
0.05

</tbody>
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[Kaspias]

Is the name linked to the Romanian county of Teleorman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleorman_County), which borders Bulgaria?

People there are similar genetically to the Gagauz.

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Name
Number of Samples
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Moldova_Gagauzia
10
19.56
22.60
18.18
13.67
20.38
2.04
0.78
0.56
1.06
0.26
0.40
0.36
0.15

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Name
Number of Samples
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman
12
21.55
22.98
17.68
11.44
20.38
2.69
0.60
0.57
0.87
0.55
0.65
0.00
0.05

</tbody>
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Yes, earliest Turkish historians divide the "Deliorman" region into two and state the Danube split these two off.

This is the part I was mentioning:

https://www.saraymedya.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ge%C3%A7mi%C5%9Ften-g%C3%BCn%C3%BCm%C3%BCze-saray%C3%B6n%C3%BC-670x330.jpg

Modern Gagauz who lives in Moldavia is a mix of actual Gagauz's and other Christians, apparently, the same process occurred in Teleorman.

The base admixture of these two regions should be the same, this is a good finding.

[Ion Basescul]

Yes, earliest Turkish historians divide the "Deliorman" region into two and state the Danube split these two off.

This is the part I was mentioning:

https://www.saraymedya.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ge%C3%A7mi%C5%9Ften-g%C3%BCn%C3%BCm%C3%BCze-saray%C3%B6n%C3%BC-670x330.jpg

Modern Gagauz who lives in Moldavia is a mix of actual Gagauz's and other Christians, apparently, the same process occurred in Teleorman.

The base admixture of these two regions should be the same, this is a good finding.

To go even further, Teleorman and the neighbouring Giurgiu counties might both be linked to the Balkans. Until the middle 20th century, there was a county called Vlașca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vla%C8%99ca_County) which spanned most of Giurgiu. I suspect that this suggests that people on the Danube at least partially have some connections to the Balkans, because Romanians don't call themselves Vlachs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Tara_Romaneasca_judete_1601-1718.svg/1920px-Tara_Romaneasca_judete_1601-1718.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Romania_Jude%C5%A3e_1940-2010.jpg

[Chelubey]

Why don't Bulgarians learn their real pre-history?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

[WeirdLookingFellow]

To go even further, Teleorman and the neighbouring Giurgiu counties might both be linked to the Balkans. Until the middle 20th century, there was a county called Vlașca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vla%C8%99ca_County) which spanned most of Giurgiu. I suspect that this suggests that people on the Danube at least partially have some connections to the Balkans, because Romanians don't call themselves Vlachs.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Tara_Romaneasca_judete_1601-1718.svg/1920px-Tara_Romaneasca_judete_1601-1718.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Romania_Jude%C5%A3e_1940-2010.jpg

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

Regardless, this discussion doesn't need to go anywhere because it's not strictly related to the topic q but just somewhat related to Bulgarian history.

[Ion Basescul]

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.


Why are you surprised? At least 50% of Romanian villages in Wallachia that are monoethnically Romanian have Slavic names. I haven't looked at other regions, but I remember the locality of Crasna by the border with Moldova, which obviously comes from Slavic "red".

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Why are you surprised? At least 50% of Romanian villages in Wallachia that are monoethnically Romanian have Slavic names. I haven't looked at other regions, but I remember the locality of Crasna by the border with Moldova, which obviously comes from Slavic "red".

That's what I mean in point 1) - if there were enough Slavs, why not a proper Slavic name like Crasna, Bistrita. Why be a Slav in an area and call it "Vlasca", to denominate it's inhabited by Vlachs. Only maybe it was under Bulgarian administration and they called it according to the greater region around it - "our bit of the Vlach lands".

[Ion Basescul]

That county was actually attested as Vlasca since the 14th century (first by Mircea cel Batran), it's an old name, which is weird because:

1) If there were plenty of Slavs, why didn't the place get a proper Slavic name;
2) There were enough Slavs to call it Vlasca which means a place filled with Vlachs but not enough Vlachs to give it a Romanian name?

The place might have been administered by some Bulgarians or other Slavs but was densely populated by Romanians, that Wallachia eventually absorbed.

Regardless, this discussion doesn't need to go anywhere because it's not strictly related to the topic q but just somewhat related to Bulgarian history.

Also surnames of Bulgarian origin are pretty common in Wallachia.
"Dobre (https://forebears.io/surnames/dobre)" seems to be the 47th most popular surname in Romania with 42k people bearing it. It is mostly concentrated there.

https://i.ibb.co/R4jhV4N/image.png

Another one is "Voicu (https://forebears.io/surnames/voicu)", which is the 46th most popular in the country with also 42k holders. Again mostly concentrated in Wallachia.

https://i.ibb.co/DLTCHnW/image.png

And that's without counting derivatives like those with changed suffixes like Voiculescu (3.5k), Boicu (3k), Dobrescu (8k), Dobrin (9k), Dobrea (3.5k), Dobrean (800), Dobreanu (800), Dobromir (600), etc.

[Ion Basescul]

That's what I mean in point 1) - if there were enough Slavs, why not a proper Slavic name like Crasna, Bistrita. Why be a Slav in an area and call it "Vlasca", to denominate it's inhabited by Vlachs. Only maybe it was under Bulgarian administration and they called it according to the greater region around it - "our bit of the Vlach lands".

Because it must have been a key location for the people that they called Vlachs. Maybe that was the first "gate" for the trade into Wallachia from the direction of Bulgaria? That was probably its defining feature, hence the Slavic Vlasca.

[Abriekman]

Well, even if Turkic admixture had preserved in Bulgaria, it is among Balkan Turks now. There were no Bulgarians in the Eastern Bulgaria 150 years before.

So, it is not sensible to search Proto-Bulgarian admixture in modern Bulgarians. They are a continuum of Serbs in genetic meaning.

Do you mean in Eastern Bulgaria were no Bulgarians 150 years ago? They were and they were and maybe were 25 or 50% of population. Additionaly my Bulgarian ancestors are from Silistra and as you checked I do not have Turkish matches, which proves Bulgarians did not mix with Turks there

[Kaspias]

Do you mean in Eastern Bulgaria were no Bulgarians 150 years ago? They were and they were and maybe were 25 or 50% of population. Additionaly my Bulgarian ancestors are from Silistra and as you checked I do not have Turkish matches, which proves Bulgarians did not mix with Turks there

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

[Abriekman]

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.

A bit weird it is, also I checked, these matches are on my Polish origin segments, I am sure my ancestors were from Silistra region, my ancestors were Bulgarians who moved to Russian Empire due to Russo-Turkish war. That is what I read in wikipedia, where my ancestors lived

"През август 1773 година, по време на Руско–турската война, 400 семейства от селото се изселват в Руската империя. През следващата година те основават селището Олшанка в земите, определени за създаващата се по това време Бугска казашка войска."

[Leto]

According to the 1871 Ottoman consensus, Christians were 20% of the population: Bulgarians + Greeks. Silistra was more than 90% Muslim. I checked your matches, and your Bulgarian matches were from Western Bulgaria as well, which points out your Bulgarian part was a recent comer from Western Bulgaria following the Bulgarian Independence, which I already had pointed out. You don't have Turkish matches because your Bulgarian part is not native to there.

Greek hotspots were in around Varna and Burgas, Bulgarian hotspots were in Northern Dobruja(Romanian Dobruja) and Tarnovo.
Then the Eastern Bulgarian average for GED makes little sense. 1871 is probably even later than when Russians started to settle in the Far East (Amur, Sakhalin etc.), i.e. a very recent settlement.

[Kaspias]

A bit weird it is, also I checked, these matches are on my Polish origin segments, I am sure my ancestors were from Silistra region, my ancestors were Bulgarians who moved to Russian Empire due to Russo-Turkish war. That is what I read in wikipedia, where my ancestors lived

"През август 1773 година, по време на Руско–турската война, 400 семейства от селото се изселват в Руската империя. През следващата година те основават селището Олшанка в земите, определени за създаващата се по това време Бугска казашка войска."

Alfatlar was either a mixed Turkish/Bulgarian village or a Turkish village. I mean, even its current name is Turkish and there are three more Turkish villages with the same name. But there are only a few Turks now.

Bulgarian Wikipedia claims it is Bulgarian since 1571, and the name Alfatar is Proto-Bulgar. Proto-Bulgars lived before 1571, yet the village is not present in 1530.


See the geolocation of it and the presence of Bulgarian villages in 1530. In red circles. The rest is Turkish.

https://i.ibb.co/Ttjsx9f/Ads-z.png



Then the Eastern Bulgarian average for GED makes little sense. 1871 is probably even later than when Russians started to settle in the Far East (Amur, Sakhalin etc.), i.e. a very recent settlement.

Exactly.

Eastern Bulgarians = A mix of Western Bulgarians, Greeks, Thracian Bulgarians + Actual Eastern Bulgarians.

Gagauz = Actual Eastern Bulgarians + Greeks + Bulgarians who moved to Moldova.

[PAGANE]

Caspias is somewhat right. In Eastern Bulgaria there has always been a Bulgarian population, but it was mostly rural. The Ottoman population is predominantly urban. For the entire 500-year period there has been a large movement of Bulgarians throughout the ethnic territory. Much of this territory today is outside the borders of Bulgaria. Until the middle of the 18th and the beginning of the 19th century the predominant movement of the Bulgarians was in the direction of the western Balkans and the north. But from the beginning of the 19th century. a return from west to east begins. All these internal migrations are caused by a number of reasons - influenced by internal or external factors.

[Abriekman]

Alfatlar was either a mixed Turkish/Bulgarian village or a Turkish village. I mean, even its current name is Turkish and there are three more Turkish villages with the same name. But there are only a few Turks now.

Bulgarian Wikipedia claims it is Bulgarian since 1571, and the name Alfatar is Proto-Bulgar. Proto-Bulgars lived before 1571, yet the village is not present in 1530.


See the geolocation of it and the presence of Bulgarian villages in 1530. In red circles. The rest is Turkish.

https://i.ibb.co/Ttjsx9f/Ads-z.png




Exactly.

Eastern Bulgarians = A mix of Western Bulgarians, Greeks, Thracian Bulgarians + Actual Eastern Bulgarians.

Gagauz = Actual Eastern Bulgarians + Greeks + Bulgarians who moved to Moldova.

So you said my ancestors lived in very Turkish area, but I do not have matches from there. I do not know, my situation with relatives is weird and these matches you told me match me on Eastern European segments. 23andme gave me Anatolian, which stays on 90% confidence, but I still do not know what is it

[Leto]

So you said my ancestors lived in very Turkish area, but I do not have matches from there. I do not know, my situation with relatives is weird and these matches you told me match me on Eastern European segments. 23andme gave me Anatolian, which stays on 90% confidence, but I still do not know what is it
Your Bulgarian is very minor, 6.25%, so hypothetically even if it was Balkan Turkish, it wouldn't be noticeable in you autosomally since Balkan Turks are 70-80% native Balkanite (pre-Ottoman).

[Kaspias]

So you said my ancestors lived in very Turkish area, but I do not have matches from there. I do not know, my situation with relatives is weird and these matches you told me match me on Eastern European segments. 23andme gave me Anatolian, which stays on 90% confidence, but I still do not know what is it

Well, being half Pomak, I have only 2 Pomak matches.

Imagine the situation at 6.25%. Leto is correct in this sense. S-he could be either Bulgarian or Turkish. Even if we assume was Turkish, there is a good chance you did not inherit the Turkic part of the admixture. This is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Even if we assume s-he was Bulgarian, we still don't know when they arrived in Alfatlar and from where.

[Abriekman]

Well, being half Pomak, I have only 2 Pomak matches.

Imagine the situation at 6.25%. Leto is correct in this sense. S-he could be either Bulgarian or Turkish. Even if we assume was Turkish, there is a good chance you did not inherit the Turkic part of the admixture. This is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Even if we assume s-he was Bulgarian, we still don't know when they arrived in Alfatlar and from where.

If you can, send to me Bulgarian or Bulgarian Turk Gedmatch kits from all regions of Bulgaria you have and I will check if some of them match me on Balkan or Anatolian segments assigned by 23andme

[Kaspias]

If you can, send to me Bulgarian or Bulgarian Turk Gedmatch kits from all regions of Bulgaria you have and I will check if some of them match me on Balkan or Anatolian segments assigned by 23andme

I sent.

[Abriekman]

I sent.

Thank you, I checked every match you sent me and I do not match any Bulgarian or Turk unfortunately to prove anything, maybe if more people from Bulgaria will be tested I will know something

Since my Sephardic ancestry is not known and i confirmed it only by my matches it is possible I am really not 1/16, but 1/32 in case of having Balkan Turkish, because to my knowledge it is more southern shifted population, I think I will know more about it when i will ask my family, i can't assume I have this ancestry unfortunately, because It can not be confirmed, at least now

[Abriekman]

I sent.

I have a question. If Bulgarian Turks moved from Alfatar to Ukraine, why they became Bulgarians by surnames and identity or they were Bulgarians in this case?

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6997124] Имам въпрос. Ако българските турци са се преместили от Алфатар в Украйна, защо са станали българи по фамилии и самоличност или в този случай са били българи? [/ ЦИТАТ]

Dear boy, there are no Turks who have moved to Ukraine. The only Bulgarian population During the Middle Ages the settlement was in a period of prosperity. This area is the center of the Bulgarian kingdom, located between the capitals Pliska and Preslav, and Drustar / in the tenth century Drustar was the Danube residence of the Bulgarian khans and patriarchs /. Remains of a stone fortress in the Kilnik area / military-strategic, administrative and religious center /, medieval settlements and fortresses in the Karaula, Suhata Cheshma areas, as well as a monastic colony along the Kanagyol riverbed - the center of rock monasteries - have been found. dated to the tenth century.
For the epoch of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom in this region there are no serious methodological researches.
According to incompletely confirmed data at the beginning of the Ottoman expansion, the village had more than 700 houses. The earliest document / from 1573-1574 / shows that the population is purely Bulgarian. As such, it is preserved until the Liberation. During the second half of the 15th-17th centuries, significant demographic changes took place in Dobrogea. As a result of the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774, many Bulgarian villages in these lands changed their appearance. Some of the inhabitants of this region emigrated to Russia and Wallachia
In August 1773, during the war, 400 families from the village emigrated to the Russian Empire. The following year, they founded the village of Olshanka in the lands designated for the then-emerging Bug Cossack Army. Disappointed with the barren lands, many Bulgarians decided to return to their homeland, but were repressed and forced to stay in Olshanka. After the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-1829, settlers from Sliven and Yambol settled in Alfatar. At the time of the liberation from Turkish rule it had 2,039 inhabitants and was among the largest villages in Dobrudzha.

[Abriekman]

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6997124] Имам въпрос. Ако българските турци са се преместили от Алфатар в Украйна, защо са станали българи по фамилии и самоличност или в този случай са били българи? [/ ЦИТАТ]

Dear boy, there are no Turks who have moved to Ukraine. The only Bulgarian population During the Middle Ages the settlement was in a period of prosperity. This area is the center of the Bulgarian kingdom, located between the capitals Pliska and Preslav, and Drustar / in the tenth century Drustar was the Danube residence of the Bulgarian khans and patriarchs /. Remains of a stone fortress in the Kilnik area / military-strategic, administrative and religious center /, medieval settlements and fortresses in the Karaula, Suhata Cheshma areas, as well as a monastic colony along the Kanagyol riverbed - the center of rock monasteries - have been found. dated to the tenth century.
For the epoch of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom in this region there are no serious methodological researches.
According to incompletely confirmed data at the beginning of the Ottoman expansion, the village had more than 700 houses. The earliest document / from 1573-1574 / shows that the population is purely Bulgarian. As such, it is preserved until the Liberation. During the second half of the 15th-17th centuries, significant demographic changes took place in Dobrogea. As a result of the Russo-Turkish War of 1768-1774, many Bulgarian villages in these lands changed their appearance. Some of the inhabitants of this region emigrated to Russia and Wallachia
In August 1773, during the war, 400 families from the village emigrated to the Russian Empire. The following year, they founded the village of Olshanka in the lands designated for the then-emerging Bug Cossack Army. Disappointed with the barren lands, many Bulgarians decided to return to their homeland, but were repressed and forced to stay in Olshanka. After the Russo-Turkish War of 1828-1829, settlers from Sliven and Yambol settled in Alfatar. At the time of the liberation from Turkish rule it had 2,039 inhabitants and was among the largest villages in Dobrudzha.

Kaspias said, village Alfatar was most likely Turkish-Bulgarian or Turkish village. Look at ethnic map of Balkans in 18 century

[Abriekman]

Deleted

[Kaspias]

I have a question. If Bulgarian Turks moved from Alfatar to Ukraine, why they became Bulgarians by surnames and identity or they were Bulgarians in this case?

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.


Kaspias said, village Alfatar was most likely Turkish-Bulgarian or Turkish village. Look at ethnic map of Balkans in 18 century

Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

[Abriekman]

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.



Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

Could Bulgarians and Turks mix with this village? Many people think no because of confession, but I saw some genetic results from northern Bulgaria and they score some Turkish. Even if one my distant ancestor was for example from Pleven, he mixed with those from Alfatar, because they lived in isolation in Ukraine for almost 200 years and mix with each other

[Abriekman]

I totally had forgot about it. This is a good point. Turks had not migrated to USSR.



Well yeah, but PAGANE might be right here. I mean, the village was probably Turkish or mixed Turkish/Bulgarian when it is built - we understand that because the name is in Turkish, and there are still Turks in the village- yet no Turks migrated to USSR. Plus, we don't know when Bulgarians settled there. In this sense, your ancestor for example might be actually from Pleven or somewhere else, then migrated to Silistra, then to Ukraine.

Although I'm not aware of an Ottoman document that shows Bulgarian presence in 1571 in the village if that's what Bulgarian registers show, then the Bulgarian settlers of the village might be indeed there since the early 1600s. In this option, this means your ancestor was in that 10% Christian part lived in the region and isolated in there. Considering isolation continued in the USSR period too, it is not much likely that you will see meaningful Bulgarian/Turkish matches from the region as long as your own community is not tested.

If on commercial tests I score Turkish 1-2%, maybe it is because my ancestors were from that area? If we assume perfect inheritance my Bulgarian ancestor would score 10-20% Anatolian on 23andme or FTDNA, maybe it is normal if village was mixed? I was thinking about Turkish roots even before I done DNA test and find out his ancestors were from that area, my grandmother said my grandfather can have Turkish roots from Bulgarian side, but that was related to look

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6998804] Може ли българи и турци да се смесят с това село? Много хора мислят не заради признанието, но аз видях някои генетични резултати от Северна България и вкараха някои турски. Дори някой от моите далечни прародители да е бил например от Плевен, той се е смесвал с тези от Алфатар, защото те са живели в изолация в Украйна почти 200 години и се смесват помежду си [/ QUOTE]
Bulgarians and Turks mixed, but only in one direction - Bulgarian women were taken by Turks, which automatically leads to a change of religion and after a generation there is no memory that you are of mixed origin. This continues for a period of 500 years. In addition, many Bulgarians were forced to convert to Islam for economic reasons or by force. this happened both individually and en masse / whole families and even whole villages /. This automatically leads to a change in the social and cultural identity of these people, and the next generation has already assimilated and adopted a foreign ethnicity. That is why many modern Turks in Bulgaria can be your genetic counterparts, because in reality back in time they had a different ethnic basis.

[Kaspias]

If on commercial tests I score Turkish 1-2%, maybe it is because my ancestors were from that area? If we assume perfect inheritance my Bulgarian ancestor would score 10-20% Anatolian on 23andme or FTDNA, maybe it is normal if village was mixed? I was thinking about Turkish roots even before I done DNA test and find out his ancestors were from that area, my grandmother said my grandfather can have Turkish roots from Bulgarian side, but that was related to look

The results companies assign is irrelevant as they can not be correct. They are based on modern samples from specific regions. Phenotype is also not an indicator. On the other hand, considering s/he was a refugee to Ukraine, s/he supposed to be Bulgarian. You may have either Turkish or Bulgarian matches based on this because Balkan Turks are already 70-80% native in terms of DNA.




[QUOTE = Abriekman; 6998804] Може ли българи и турци да се смесят с това село? Много хора мислят не заради признанието, но аз видях някои генетични резултати от Северна България и вкараха някои турски. Дори някой от моите далечни прародители да е бил например от Плевен, той се е смесвал с тези от Алфатар, защото те са живели в изолация в Украйна почти 200 години и се смесват помежду си [/ QUOTE]
Bulgarians and Turks mixed, but only in one direction - Bulgarian women were taken by Turks, which automatically leads to a change of religion and after a generation there is no memory that you are of mixed origin. This continues for a period of 500 years. In addition, many Bulgarians were forced to convert to Islam for economic reasons or by force. this happened both individually and en masse / whole families and even whole villages /. This automatically leads to a change in the social and cultural identity of these people, and the next generation has already assimilated and adopted a foreign ethnicity. That is why many modern Turks in Bulgaria can be your genetic counterparts, because in reality back in time they had a different ethnic basis.

Not exactly.


It was not only one direction. As opposite, mt-DNA of Balkan Turks has more Turkic origin than their y-DNA. Points out Bulgarian men took Turk women more than Turk men took Bulgarian women.
There was no "physically" force on conversion, I mean, there would be no dhimmi remain in the region in such a condition and Ottoman government would not let Christians settle in specific regions. Conversion was encouraged by using tax discounts on the Muslim community and a chance to get higher positions in the Ottoman government.
Among 173 Balkan Turk samples I have, only one individual who is from Ruse can be regarded as a convert. The rest show actual Turkic admixture.


But it is correct that the Turk-Bulgarian mixes resulted in the son identify as Turkish, which later will be known as Balkan Turks. This comes from the nature of Islam, and the Islamization of Bulgarians naturally leads the child to identify Turkish.

[Abriekman]

The results companies assign is irrelevant as they can not be correct. They are based on modern samples from specific regions. Phenotype is also not an indicator. On the other hand, considering s/he was a refugee to Ukraine, s/he supposed to be Bulgarian. You may have either Turkish or Bulgarian matches based on this because Balkan Turks are already 70-80% native in terms of DNA.





Not exactly.


It was not only one direction. As opposite, mt-DNA of Balkan Turks has more Turkic origin than their y-DNA. Points out Bulgarian men took Turk women more than Turk men took Bulgarian women.
There was no "physically" force on conversion, I mean, there would be no dhimmi remain in the region in such a condition and Ottoman government would not let Christians settle in specific regions. Conversion was encouraged by using tax discounts on the Muslim community and a chance to get higher positions in the Ottoman government.
Among 173 Balkan Turk samples I have, only one individual who is from Ruse can be regarded as a convert. The rest show actual Turkic admixture.


But it is correct that the Turk-Bulgarian mixes resulted in the son identify as Turkish, which later will be known as Balkan Turks. This comes from the nature of Islam, and the Islamization of Bulgarians naturally leads the child to identify Turkish.

Results can be incorrect, you are right, but I am not talking about Myheritage or Living dna, but about 23andme, usually if category assigned by them can stay on 90% confidence and you have it on other professional test this admix is real, but then this Anatolian is a bit not realistic for my ancestors because it is even higher than some Balkan Turks have.

[Kaspias]

Results can be incorrect, you are right, but I am not talking about Myheritage or Living dna, but about 23andme, usually if category assigned by them can stay on 90% confidence and you have it on other professional test this admix is real, but then this Anatolian is a bit not realistic for my ancestors because it is even higher than some Balkan Turks have.

23andme is not different than the rest. I have 60% Anatolian, and 35% in 90% confidence.

In fact, I have no Anatolian at all. So that's it.

[Abriekman]

23andme is not different than the rest. I have 60% Anatolian, and 35% in 90% confidence.

In fact, I have no Anatolian at all. So that's it.

You are Turk, their Anatolian category is Turkish and usually has some Western Asian and Central Asian admix

[Kaspias]

You are Turk, their Anatolian category is Turkish and usually has some Western Asian and Central Asian admkz

Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

[Abriekman]

Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

It contains Turkic, is it possible my Bulgarian ancestors have 10-20% DNA from Bulgars?

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Kaspias; 6998875] Резултатите, които компаниите възлагат, са без значение, тъй като не могат да бъдат правилни. Те се основават на съвременни мостри от конкретни региони. Фенотипът също не е индикатор. От друга страна, като се има предвид, че е бил бежанец в Украйна, той / тя трябва да е българин. Въз основа на това може да имате турски или български мачове, защото балканските турци вече са 70-80% местни по отношение на ДНК.


Не точно.


Това не беше само една посока. Обратно, mt-ДНК на балканските турци има по-тюркски произход от тяхната y-ДНК. Изтъква, че българските мъже са взели туркини повече, отколкото турците са взели българки.
Не е имало "физическа" сила за преобразуване, искам да кажа, няма да има дими, които да останат в региона в такова състояние и османското правителство няма да позволи на християните да се заселят в определени региони. Преобразуването беше насърчавано чрез използване на данъчни отстъпки за мюсюлманската общност и шанс за заемане на по-високи позиции в османското правителство.
Сред 173 проби от балкански турци, които имам, само един индивид, който е от Русе, може да бъде считан за новообратен. Останалите показват действителна тюркска примес.


Но е правилно, че турско-българските смеси са довели синът да се идентифицира като турски, което по-късно ще бъде известно като балкански турци. Това идва от естеството на исляма и ислямизирането на българите естествено води детето да идентифицира турския език. [/ ЦИТАТ]

1. In the conditions of the Ottoman Empire it is impossible for a Bulgarian man to take a Turk and remain a Christian. He can marry a Turkish woman, but he must first convert to Islam. By converting to Islam, this family automatically became Muslim and their children, and their children's children, were already assimilated into the Turkish ethnic group. They consider themselves Turks. The earlier this happens, the easier it is to mix with ethnic Turks on the basis of a common religion.

2. There was also physical violence for the adoption of Islam. The most striking are the region of the Rhodopes, where whole villages are converted to Islam. It is natural that the socio-economic situation of the Bulgarians in the Ottoman Empire was unequal compared to the Muslims.Islamization was largely gradual, on a voluntary basis, in view of economic and social privileges. But in certain periods this also happened by force.
When you put a certain population at a disadvantage economically and socially because of the difference in religion, it is also a form of violence that forces them to change their religion in order to improve their social and economic status.

3. It is normal to show a Turkic admixture, because becoming a Muslim he is free to marry or marry an ethnic Turk. The earlier the change of religion took place, the more generations there are to this day and the more mixing there is. For example, if a Bulgarian Christian family converted to Islam in the middle of the 17th century, by the end of this century we may have two more generations of this family, who are already Muslims, who do not even remember that they are not Turks by origin. These two generations can easily enter into a family union with ethnic Turks, and so the Turkic impurity grows proportionally. Let me remind you that hypothetically this is the 17th century, two more centuries will follow and if we roughly add 4 generations per century, it will happen by the end of the 19th century. we have 10 generations. In each of these generations, it is quite real and possible that the Turkic genetic component increases through marriages with Muslim ethnic Turks.

[Kaspias]

It contains Turkic, is it possible my Bulgarian ancestors have 10-20% DNA from Bulgars?

No. It is not likely. Try to model yourself in Dodecad K12b and see which "extra" admixture you have compared to your ethnicities. This will be the answer.





1. In the conditions of the Ottoman Empire it is impossible for a Bulgarian man to take a Turk and remain a Christian. He can marry a Turkish woman, but he must first convert to Islam. By converting to Islam, this family automatically became Muslim and their children, and their children's children, were already assimilated into the Turkish ethnic group. They consider themselves Turks. The earlier this happens, the easier it is to mix with ethnic Turks on the basis of a common religion.


Yes, that's it. Bulgarian men adopted Islam and married Turks. Again, this is because of social and economic reasons. There are many Turkish villages in the Balkans under the name of "Müsellim", which means a group of soldier native to the land where he lives, has a non-Muslim origin, yet Islamized.


2. There was also physical violence for the adoption of Islam. The most striking are the region of the Rhodopes, where whole villages are converted to Islam. It is natural that the socio-economic situation of the Bulgarians in the Ottoman Empire was unequal compared to the Muslims.Islamization was largely gradual, on a voluntary basis, in view of economic and social privileges. But in certain periods this also happened by force.
When you put a certain population at a disadvantage economically and socially because of the difference in religion, it is also a form of violence that forces them to change their religion in order to improve their social and economic status.

The only cruelty that occurred in the Rhodope area is when Bulgaria was conquered at first. Eastern Rhodope is emptied forcefully and Edirne became capital. The region flooded with massive Turkic hordes in a short period and some Bulgarian villages raided/emptied/converted forcefully. This was the only register that is a sign of physically forced conversion of non-Muslims in the Ottoman Balkan history. Afterward, especially towards liberation, mutual conflicts happened but these were not exactly about conversion. There were probably cases in which Bulgarians resisted giving man or money to the state under war conditions specifically, in such times there might be more pressure than usual, and conflicts that came with it. But such cases even were applying to Turks. On the other hand, there is also a gap of information in Ottoman history when Aktav's Tatars raided Varna and were forcefully settled into Tatarbazari in an attempt to "civilize" them. If you mean such things, yes, these have also happened time-to-time yet these had no relevance with the government policy.

The point is what we know is not enough to claim that non-Muslims were forcefully converted. As opposite, we have much other reason to believe that they converted because of socio-economical reasons, which can be regarded as a type of violence and I agree you on that, and secondly conversion voluntarily. I can also encourage you to investigate the counterparts of Ottomans and their policy to their minorities. For example, if the Ottomans had not conquered Bulgaria, Bulgarians might be speaking Greek now.


3. It is normal to show a Turkic admixture, because becoming a Muslim he is free to marry or marry an ethnic Turk. The earlier the change of religion took place, the more generations there are to this day and the more mixing there is. For example, if a Bulgarian Christian family converted to Islam in the middle of the 17th century, by the end of this century we may have two more generations of this family, who are already Muslims, who do not even remember that they are not Turks by origin. These two generations can easily enter into a family union with ethnic Turks, and so the Turkic impurity grows proportionally. Let me remind you that hypothetically this is the 17th century, two more centuries will follow and if we roughly add 4 generations per century, it will happen by the end of the 19th century. we have 10 generations. In each of these generations, it is quite real and possible that the Turkic genetic component increases through marriages with Muslim ethnic Turks.


Exactly. But I doubt it was all in the 17th century. I would say it started in the 15th century. Plus, most of the Islamization cases happened directly by marrying with Turks in the first generation.

[PAGANE]

[ЦИТА = Kaspias; 6998962] Не. Не е вероятно. Опитайте се да моделирате себе си в Dodecad K12b и да видите коя „допълнителна“ добавка имате в сравнение с вашите етноси. Това ще бъде отговорът.





Да това е. Българите приеха исляма и се ожениха за турци. Отново това се дължи на социални и икономически причини. На Балканите има много турски села под името "Мюселим", което означава група войници, родом от страната, където живее, има немюсюлмански произход, но все пак ислямизиран.



Единствената жестокост, която се е случила в района на Родопите е, когато България е била завладяна първоначално. Източните Родопи се изпразват насилствено и Одрин става столица. Регионът се наводни с масивни тюркски орди за кратък период и някои български села нахлуха / изпразниха / преобразуваха насилствено. Това беше единственият регистър, който е признак на физически насилствено обръщане на немюсюлмани в историята на османските балкани. Впоследствие, особено към освобождението, се случиха взаимни конфликти, но не ставаше дума точно за обръщане. Вероятно е имало случаи, в които българите са се противопоставяли да дават човек или пари на държавата по-специално във военни условия, в такива моменти може да има по-голям натиск от обикновено и конфликти, дошли с него. Но такива случаи се прилагаха дори и за турци. От друга страна, има и пропуск в информацията в османската история, когато татарите на Актав нахлуха във Варна и бяха принудително заселени в Татарбазари в опит да ги „цивилизират“. Ако имате предвид такива неща, да, те също са се случвали от време на време, но те не са имали отношение към правителствената политика.

Въпросът е в това, което знаем, че не е достатъчно, за да се твърди, че немюсюлманите са били насилствено обърнати. Като противоположно, имаме много други основания да вярваме, че те са се обърнали поради социално-икономически причини, които могат да се разглеждат като вид насилие и аз съм съгласен с това, и второ доброволно преобразуване. Също така мога да ви насърча да разследвате колегите на османците и тяхната политика спрямо техните малцинства. Например, ако османците не бяха завладели България, българите може би сега говореха гръцки.



Точно. Но се съмнявам, че всичко е било през 17 век. Бих казал, че е започнало през 15 век. Освен това повечето случаи на ислямизация са се случили директно чрез сключване на брак с турци през първото поколение. [/ QUOTE]

They would hardly speak Greek, because between the First and the Second Bulgarian State in the Balkans they stood for 200 years under the rule of Byzantium. Well, they didn't speak Greek :) And why not assume that the whole Balkans would speak Bulgarian, including today's Northern Greece and the European part of Turkey :) But as the Russians say, history does not know a conditional inclination. I said this for the 17th century simply as an example. Of course, it can happen sooner or later.

[PAGANE]

[ЦИТА = Kaspias; 6998962] Не. Не е вероятно. Опитайте се да моделирате себе си в Dodecad K12b и да видите коя „допълнителна“ добавка имате в сравнение с вашите етноси. Това ще бъде отговорът.





Да това е. Българите приеха исляма и се ожениха за турци. Отново това се дължи на социални и икономически причини. На Балканите има много турски села под името "Мюселим", което означава група войници, родом от страната, където живее, има немюсюлмански произход, но все пак ислямизиран.



Единствената жестокост, която се е случила в района на Родопите е, когато България е била завладяна първоначално. Източните Родопи се изпразват насилствено и Одрин става столица. Регионът се наводни с масивни тюркски орди за кратък период и някои български села нахлуха / изпразниха / преобразуваха насилствено. Това беше единственият регистър, който е признак на физически насилствено обръщане на немюсюлмани в историята на османските балкани. Впоследствие, особено към освобождението, се случиха взаимни конфликти, но не ставаше дума точно за обръщане. Вероятно е имало случаи, в които българите са се противопоставяли да дават човек или пари на държавата по-специално във военни условия, в такива моменти може да има по-голям натиск от обикновено и конфликти, дошли с него. Но такива случаи се прилагаха дори и за турци. От друга страна, има и пропуск в информацията в османската история, когато татарите на Актав нахлуха във Варна и бяха принудително заселени в Татарбазари в опит да ги „цивилизират“. Ако имате предвид такива неща, да, те също са се случвали от време на време, но те не са имали отношение към правителствената политика.

Въпросът е в това, което знаем, че не е достатъчно, за да се твърди, че немюсюлманите са били насилствено обърнати. Като противоположно, имаме много други основания да вярваме, че те са се обърнали поради социално-икономически причини, които могат да се разглеждат като вид насилие и аз съм съгласен с това, и второ доброволно преобразуване. Също така мога да ви насърча да разследвате колегите на османците и тяхната политика спрямо техните малцинства. Например, ако османците не бяха завладели България, българите може би сега говореха гръцки.



Точно. Но се съмнявам, че всичко е било през 17 век. Бих казал, че е започнало през 15 век. Освен това повечето случаи на ислямизация са се случили директно чрез сключване на брак с турци през първото поколение. [/ QUOTE]

They would hardly speak Greek, because between the First and the Second Bulgarian State in the Balkans they stood for 200 years under the rule of Byzantium. Well, they didn't speak Greek :) And why not assume that the whole Balkans would speak Bulgarian, including today's Northern Greece and the European part of Turkey :) But as the Russians say, history does not know a conditional inclination. I said this for the 17th century simply as an example. Of course, it can happen sooner or later.

[Kaspias]

[ЦИТА = Kaspias; 6998962] Не. Не е вероятно. Опитайте се да моделирате себе си в Dodecad K12b и да видите коя „допълнителна“ добавка имате в сравнение с вашите етноси. Това ще бъде отговорът.





Да това е. Българите приеха исляма и се ожениха за турци. Отново това се дължи на социални и икономически причини. На Балканите има много турски села под името "Мюселим", което означава група войници, родом от страната, където живее, има немюсюлмански произход, но все пак ислямизиран.



Единствената жестокост, която се е случила в района на Родопите е, когато България е била завладяна първоначално. Източните Родопи се изпразват насилствено и Одрин става столица. Регионът се наводни с масивни тюркски орди за кратък период и някои български села нахлуха / изпразниха / преобразуваха насилствено. Това беше единственият регистър, който е признак на физически насилствено обръщане на немюсюлмани в историята на османските балкани. Впоследствие, особено към освобождението, се случиха взаимни конфликти, но не ставаше дума точно за обръщане. Вероятно е имало случаи, в които българите са се противопоставяли да дават човек или пари на държавата по-специално във военни условия, в такива моменти може да има по-голям натиск от обикновено и конфликти, дошли с него. Но такива случаи се прилагаха дори и за турци. От друга страна, има и пропуск в информацията в османската история, когато татарите на Актав нахлуха във Варна и бяха принудително заселени в Татарбазари в опит да ги „цивилизират“. Ако имате предвид такива неща, да, те също са се случвали от време на време, но те не са имали отношение към правителствената политика.

Въпросът е в това, което знаем, че не е достатъчно, за да се твърди, че немюсюлманите са били насилствено обърнати. Като противоположно, имаме много други основания да вярваме, че те са се обърнали поради социално-икономически причини, които могат да се разглеждат като вид насилие и аз съм съгласен с това, и второ доброволно преобразуване. Също така мога да ви насърча да разследвате колегите на османците и тяхната политика спрямо техните малцинства. Например, ако османците не бяха завладели България, българите може би сега говореха гръцки.



Точно. Но се съмнявам, че всичко е било през 17 век. Бих казал, че е започнало през 15 век. Освен това повечето случаи на ислямизация са се случили директно чрез сключване на брак с турци през първото поколение. [/ QUOTE]

They would hardly speak Greek, because between the First and the Second Bulgarian State in the Balkans they stood for 200 years under the rule of Byzantium. Well, they didn't speak Greek :) And why not assume that the whole Balkans would speak Bulgarian, including today's Northern Greece and the European part of Turkey :) But as the Russians say, history does not know a conditional inclination. I said this for the 17th century simply as an example. Of course, it can happen sooner or later.

They actually spoke. Many materials produced in that time period were in Greek, including a part of your signature, and they had no their own Church(not to mention adopting Christianism), that's why I referred to Byzantium. It was after the 1100s in the Bulgarian Empire and in Vidin-Dobruja Despotates which Slavs strengthened their political power. (See the emerged Cumano-Slav houses of Terter and Balik) Not only that, Thracians which Slavic Bulgarians mixed in the region were already had mixed with Greeks before mixing with Slavs. In this sense, all of the Bulgarians have a varying degree of Greek admixture which shifts them Southeast compared to other South Slavs. In addition, many Greek individuals who are from inner Central Macedonia were identifying as Bulgarian once, yet speaking Greek now. I can list other past and present factors as such, but no need to derail the thread more. Eventually, the nations who live near Thrace interacted in various degrees, what we don't need is a pissing contest.

[Abriekman]

No. It is not likely. Try to model yourself in Dodecad K12b and see which "extra" admixture you have compared to your ethnicities. This will be the answer.




Distance: 105.3750% / 1.05375003
Target: Abriekman
85.0 Ukrainian
9.1 Turk_Ahiska
5.9 Macedonian


Distance: 99.3008% / 0.99300814
Target: Abriekman
86.4 Ukrainian
8.6 Hemshin
4.0 Macedonian
0.6 Lak
0.4 Western_Indonesian

Distance: 179.8929% / 1.79892882
Target: Abriekman
83.9 Ukrainian
7.4 Macedonian
6.3 Azeri_Jew
1.3 Nogai
1.1 Azerbaijani_Turkey

I have high caucasus, but I do not know from which side it is, what is extra admixture in my case?

On G25 I can model myself as 1/8 Balkan Turk, but I do not think it means anything, because my ancestors have Bulgarian names and surnames and were not Muslims

Distance: 2.0174% / 0.02017418
Target: Abriekman_scaled
84.0 Eastern_Europe_&_Russia
9.3 Greece_&_the_Balkans
6.4 Turkey_&_the_Caucasus
0.3 Melanesia

[andre]

The guy in the video I posted is sharing information from Reich. He said Bulgars are 50% Caucasus 50% late scytho-alanic with closest to Moldovan scythians and alans. Idk why is it so mindblowing to you. The Bulgars lived in the area, of course they will be related to the neighboring populations. If you consider the Armenian chronicles, they lived in the Caucasus for 400 years before migrating west. While the guy on the video wishes there are elites from sibir or altai, he specifically says there are no samples yet with eastern dna. So, turkic theory is dead once and for all. Slavic theory is on its last legs, wonder how will they spin the I2a1 found in EBA https://proizhod.nauka.bg/2020/10/06/news/ . He even says that the slavs on the balkans are from scythian hungary, which were absorbed by slavs before migrating.( wow, just wow). He reccomends using Byzantine and Late roman samples, not Iron age Bulgaria, because there are 1000 years of time difference.


Germans:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.0487 73,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295 ,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
Magyars:Uyelgi,0.09675,-0.123387,0.095223,0.087533,-0.075399,-0.045459,0.031609,0.0040385,-0.023418,-0.0537595,0.055131,-0.023229,0.019772,-0.0477555,-0.0329805,0.00537,-0.0099095,-0.0214735,-0.0309845,-0.03189,-0.0142245,0.0185475,0.012756,-0.0018675,0.0141305
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.03695 8,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.06448 8,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000 493,-0.008314,-0.006466
Slavs:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.06 8259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Romans:Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.1130169,0.148775,0.00 57355,-0.0298371,0.0238762,-0.012399,-0.0004504,-0.0026633,0.006792,0.0239033,0.0014005,0.0050268,-0.0083498,-0.003108,-0.0045523,-0.0004917,0.0042865,0.0005385,0.0032735,-0.0014902,-0.000993,0.0016075,-0.0009192,0.0002611,-0.0012474

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans

And me 1/4 Csango magyar:

Target: Andre_scaled
Distance: 3.1148% / 0.03114771
45.8 Romans
45.8 Slavs
5.4 Germans
3.0 Magyars

[bained]

Germans:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.0487 73,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295 ,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
Magyars:Uyelgi,0.09675,-0.123387,0.095223,0.087533,-0.075399,-0.045459,0.031609,0.0040385,-0.023418,-0.0537595,0.055131,-0.023229,0.019772,-0.0477555,-0.0329805,0.00537,-0.0099095,-0.0214735,-0.0309845,-0.03189,-0.0142245,0.0185475,0.012756,-0.0018675,0.0141305
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.03695 8,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.06448 8,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000 493,-0.008314,-0.006466
Slavs:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.06 8259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Romans:Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.1130169,0.148775,0.00 57355,-0.0298371,0.0238762,-0.012399,-0.0004504,-0.0026633,0.006792,0.0239033,0.0014005,0.0050268,-0.0083498,-0.003108,-0.0045523,-0.0004917,0.0042865,0.0005385,0.0032735,-0.0014902,-0.000993,0.0016075,-0.0009192,0.0002611,-0.0012474

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans

And me 1/4 Csango magyar:

Target: Andre_scaled
Distance: 3.1148% / 0.03114771
45.8 Romans
45.8 Slavs
5.4 Germans
3.0 Magyars

Good, now include scythian moldova alan mix and we have it all. And the Byzantine Szolad and Colegno samples, also the Skull doformed german samples

[Jana]

Germans:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.0487 73,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295 ,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
Magyars:Uyelgi,0.09675,-0.123387,0.095223,0.087533,-0.075399,-0.045459,0.031609,0.0040385,-0.023418,-0.0537595,0.055131,-0.023229,0.019772,-0.0477555,-0.0329805,0.00537,-0.0099095,-0.0214735,-0.0309845,-0.03189,-0.0142245,0.0185475,0.012756,-0.0018675,0.0141305
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.03695 8,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.06448 8,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000 493,-0.008314,-0.006466
Slavs:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.06 8259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Romans:Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.1130169,0.148775,0.00 57355,-0.0298371,0.0238762,-0.012399,-0.0004504,-0.0026633,0.006792,0.0239033,0.0014005,0.0050268,-0.0083498,-0.003108,-0.0045523,-0.0004917,0.0042865,0.0005385,0.0032735,-0.0014902,-0.000993,0.0016075,-0.0009192,0.0002611,-0.0012474

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans

And me 1/4 Csango magyar:

Target: Andre_scaled
Distance: 3.1148% / 0.03114771
45.8 Romans
45.8 Slavs
5.4 Germans
3.0 Magyars

right...

Distance: 2.8336% / 0.02833576
Target: Stearsolina_scaled

99.7 Slavs
0.3 Proto-Bulgars

[Jana]

This Reich is obviously an idiot when it comes to Balkans. Wouldn't take their suggestions seriously at all.

[Jana]

Distance: 1.9752% / 0.01975233
Target: Stears_scaled

62.9 Slavs
24.6 Germans
10.8 Proto-Bulgars
1.7 Magyars

[War Chef]

Germans:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.0487 73,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295 ,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
Magyars:Uyelgi,0.09675,-0.123387,0.095223,0.087533,-0.075399,-0.045459,0.031609,0.0040385,-0.023418,-0.0537595,0.055131,-0.023229,0.019772,-0.0477555,-0.0329805,0.00537,-0.0099095,-0.0214735,-0.0309845,-0.03189,-0.0142245,0.0185475,0.012756,-0.0018675,0.0141305
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.03695 8,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.06448 8,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000 493,-0.008314,-0.006466
Slavs:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.06 8259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Romans:Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.1130169,0.148775,0.00 57355,-0.0298371,0.0238762,-0.012399,-0.0004504,-0.0026633,0.006792,0.0239033,0.0014005,0.0050268,-0.0083498,-0.003108,-0.0045523,-0.0004917,0.0042865,0.0005385,0.0032735,-0.0014902,-0.000993,0.0016075,-0.0009192,0.0002611,-0.0012474

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans

And me 1/4 Csango magyar:

Target: Andre_scaled
Distance: 3.1148% / 0.03114771
45.8 Romans
45.8 Slavs
5.4 Germans
3.0 Magyars

Interestingly Gagauz have a high % of the "Caucasian" G2a haplogroup.

https://i.imgur.com/gxEYXja.png

Also like other north-east Bulgarians, they have a bit more "west-Asian" than the rest of Bulgaria.

[bained]

Don't worry, he is under a lot of fire from Bulgarian historians also. Basically everybody is butthurt over this DNA study, because it doesn't fit anybody's narrative. It's wonderful.

[bained]

*double*

[Abriekman]

Interestingly Gagauz have a high % of the "Caucasian" G2a haplogroup.

https://i.imgur.com/gxEYXja.png

Also like other north-east Bulgarians, they have a bit more "west-Asian" than the rest of Bulgaria.

What is the reason of increased west asian admix in north-east Bulgaria?

[vbnetkhio]

He even says that the slavs on the balkans are from scythian hungary, which were absorbed by slavs before migrating.( wow, just wow).

it took me less than a minute to disprove this :icon_lol:

https://i.imgur.com/tKGfXPg.png

i guess "the guy" doesn't know all that much about genetics.

[War Chef]

What is the reason of increased west asian admix in north-east Bulgaria?

My guess is a combination of more Byzantine + Bulgar genes.
But I think Deliorman Turks have more Bulgar genetics than anyone in Bulgaria.
Bulgarians are very low in east-Asian+Siberian % and it's a classic marker of Turkic people.

[Abriekman]

My guess is a combination of more Byzantine + Bulgar genes.
But I think Deliorman Turks have more Bulgar genetics than anyone in Bulgaria.
Bulgarians are very low in east-Asian+Siberian % and it's a classic marker of Turkic people.

I think Bulgars were more Alanic, than Turkic, that is why East Asian is low. They came somewhere from Mongolia, than mixed with Eastern Iranic tribes, than mixed with Alanic and then to Europe mixed with Thracians and Slavs

[Jana]

West Asian in southern Europe has little to do with steppe, it came from post-BA Anatolia and it peaks in Greece and med Islands/south Italy.

[Dick]

Germans:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.0487 73,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295 ,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019, 0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
Proto-Bulgars:Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
Magyars:Uyelgi,0.09675,-0.123387,0.095223,0.087533,-0.075399,-0.045459,0.031609,0.0040385,-0.023418,-0.0537595,0.055131,-0.023229,0.019772,-0.0477555,-0.0329805,0.00537,-0.0099095,-0.0214735,-0.0309845,-0.03189,-0.0142245,0.0185475,0.012756,-0.0018675,0.0141305
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA195,0.117238,0.138112,0.03695 8,0.013566,0.03139,0.003904,-0.000235,-0.000692,0.008385,0.015855,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.001189,0.000688,-0.016015,0.011535,0.011995,0.006968,0.007416,-0.000625,-0.011605,-0.007666,0.008381,-0.004579,-0.003952
Slavs:Scythian_HUN:DA197,0.124067,0.145221,0.06448 8,0.034884,0.037545,0.010598,-0.003995,0.011538,0.008795,0.00328,0.003735,-0.001199,-0.00223,0.010046,-0.00855,0.004508,0.011213,-0.006334,0.001885,0.000125,0.002371,0.000742,0.000 493,-0.008314,-0.006466
Slavs:CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569,0.12862,0.129988,0.06 8259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706
Romans:Rome_Late_Antiquity,0.1130169,0.148775,0.00 57355,-0.0298371,0.0238762,-0.012399,-0.0004504,-0.0026633,0.006792,0.0239033,0.0014005,0.0050268,-0.0083498,-0.003108,-0.0045523,-0.0004917,0.0042865,0.0005385,0.0032735,-0.0014902,-0.000993,0.0016075,-0.0009192,0.0002611,-0.0012474

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.6088% / 0.01608786
56.2 Slavs
36.6 Romans
7.0 Proto-Bulgars
0.2 Magyars


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.8856% / 0.01885616
43.8 Slavs
41.8 Romans
14.4 Proto-Bulgars


Target: Hungarian
Distance: 1.4064% / 0.01406384
68.6 Slavs
30.0 Germans
1.0 Romans
0.4 Magyars


Target: Serbian
Distance: 1.8214% / 0.01821384
68.2 Slavs
31.8 Romans

And me 1/4 Csango magyar:

Target: Andre_scaled
Distance: 3.1148% / 0.03114771
45.8 Romans
45.8 Slavs
5.4 Germans
3.0 Magyars

Are you sure those Scythians were pure Slavs? Seems way too much


Distance: 2.2874% / 0.02287354
Target: Dick_dad_scaled
88.5 Slavs
5.4 Germans
4.7 Proto-Bulgars
1.4 Romans

[Abriekman]

My guess is a combination of more Byzantine + Bulgar genes.
But I think Deliorman Turks have more Bulgar genetics than anyone in Bulgaria.
Bulgarians are very low in east-Asian+Siberian % and it's a classic marker of Turkic people.

If Bulgars were mostly at Northeast region of Bulgaria, somewhere near Silistra, then Bulgarian refugees from this region who moved to Ukraine, probably are the most Bulgar Bulgarians in this case, because they did not mix with Western Bulgarians who came due to Communism to to east Bulgaria, like Kaspias said

[andre]

Are you sure those Scythians were pure Slavs? Seems way too much


Distance: 2.2874% / 0.02287354
Target: Dick_dad_scaled
88.5 Slavs
5.4 Germans
4.7 Proto-Bulgars
1.4 Romans

I'm not a genetist nor a antropologist, i just try to follow the "spoilers" from that bulgarian study. So, i don't who were those gentlemen.

[War Chef]

West Asian in southern Europe has little to do with steppe, it came from post-BA Anatolia and it peaks in Greece and med Islands/south Italy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEck9mUoJA

By the way, Thracian and Dacian DNA has lots of "west-med" Sardinian-like DNA and lacks west-Asian.

[War Chef]

If Bulgars were mostly at Northeast region of Bulgaria, somewhere near Silistra, then Bulgarian refugees from this region who moved to Ukraine, probably are the most Bulgar Bulgarians in this case, because they did not mix with Western Bulgarians who came due to Communism to to east Bulgaria, like Kaspias said

Where did Kaspias write that?

[andre]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEck9mUoJA

By the way, Thracian and Dacian DNA has lots of "west-med" Sardinian-like DNA and lacks west-Asian.

Do you know which components they use at the final part of the video? Eastern-Mediterranean,European,North african etc?

[Abriekman]

Where did Kaspias write that?

"1- Eastern Bulgaria, where Proto-Bulgars settled, was a Turkish region before the Russo-Turkish War. The Bulgars who had lived there mixed with Turks. Most of the Bulgarians who live in the East now came from the West during Communism."- Kaspias said. I think he means Bulgarians and Turks, who lived in this region were admixed with Bulgars, but now there are not Bulgarians in Bulgaria, who has, that high Bulgar admix, that inhabitants of this region had before because of mixing with Bulgarians of other regions. Refugees to Russian Empire from this region of Bulgaria can save this admix, because mixed with each other in isolation in other country

[Abriekman]

This is my result, I added Hun_Avar_Szolad for my Slavic ancestry

Distance: 2.2586% / 0.02258608
Target: Abriekman_scaled
84.7 Slavs
6.8 Romans
6.7 Proto-Bulgars
1.8 Magyars

[Dick]

I'm not a genetist nor a antropologist, i just try to follow the "spoilers" from that bulgarian study. So, i don't who were those gentlemen.

My Anthropologies. I thought that was your own calculator

[andre]

My Anthropologies. I thought that was your own calculator

Yes, it’s my amateur calculator.

[andre]

..

[bained]

Idk whats your obsessions with turks in Bulgaria honestly. It is well known that muslims and christians lived separately and didn't intermix, since christians were second grade people. The Janissary were moved to anatolia, the few occasional rapes happened in isolated cases, and most of the time ended in abortion or killing of the unwanted (many songs for this action). The guy specifically says over and over that no changes in the DNA after 11th century, so I hope the turk, cuman, tatar rape fantasies end soon. The pomaks are mostly bulgarian converts, of which some intermixed with anatolian turks, becuase they had the same religion.

Yet anybody that lives in modern Bulgaria and has a BG pasport is Bulgarian. Thats it. Some people try to be special minorities, but that shit is divide and conquer tactic, traceable to the bigger country with interest.

[Abriekman]

Yes, but the thing is Balkan Turks have no West Asian. If I get such Anatolian just because of shared Central Asian heritage, you might get 2-3% because of shared random East Med heritage, West Asian heritage, or something else. It's just random.

I bought Admixture studio and checked oracle results on Dodecad 12b for my Anatolian-assigned by 23andme segment, it reads it as Turkmen_Iran and AFG_Tajik, I do not think because of share East Med

Segment, which is 50% Eastern European and 50% Anatolian according to 23andme

60,55% AFG_Pashtun + 39,45% Lithuanian @ 10,839
56,64% Iran_Central_East + 43,36% Lithuanian @ 10,966
59,77% AFG_Tajik + 40,23% Lithuanian @ 11,007
33% Turk_DA228 + 33% Turk_DA228 + 33% Yamnaya_I0231 @ 29,397