East Asians in Hungary, 8000 years before present!

[Frederick]

Since we started to DNA test neolithic bones, we keep saying "WTF!?"

As far as for Europe, there is virtually not a single time, that neolithic DNA tests showed what we expected to see and I keep beeing entertained by this. :D

Instead of agreeing to our view on neolithic Europe, that sunk into our heads in the last 150 years, based on archeology and anthropology, the scientific branch of human genetics claims: It was not at all like this. It was all different!

Claims like ... Paleolithic anchestry of modern day Europeans is less than 10%
Early farmers maybe another 10%. And 80% from post-neolithic migrants.

And now... the latest strike:

Say hello to the inhabitants of Hungary, 8000 years ago:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2011/131/7/e/chink_by_ru3na-d3g2zzg.jpg

No, ok, serious:


http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/7413/table2g.png

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2011/09/crazy-adna-results-from-neolithic.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/unexpected-ancient-mtdna-from-neolithic.html

Well, if these corpses would be medieval, we would say: Well, they are Magyars after all. Uralic. Sibirian, whatever.

But, this is... NEOLITHIC corpses and the east asian mtDNA should not be there at all! :eek:

*In wait for more groundshaking news from the DNA testing front....*

[Agrippa]

Probably it has a funny reason, the test results were produced in China... :D

Well, I have no doubts and always said that there were huge biodynamic processes going on, whole populations being largely pushed aside, eliminated by new ones coming in, more progressive, better organised quite often, especially at the time of the high level individual and group selection.

What I would really like to see are the sceletons, to get a typological impression - whether this is just about the mtDNA or they are actually showing Mongoloid influences phenotypically...

As another wild speculation, probably they were actually related to Finno-Ugrians/Uralic and the Indo-Europeans were those who pushed them aside the late Neolithic.

I just hope they test more and more Corded Ware samples in particular, but also more Kurgan samples, which showed some Mongoloid too by the way:

While most of our samples possessed mtDNA haplotypes that can be linked to European and Near Eastern populations, three Neolithic and all three Bronze Age individuals belonged to mtDNA haplogroup C, which is common in East Eurasian, particularly South Siberian, populations but exceedingly rare in Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/09/east-eurasian-mtdna-in-ukrainian.html

But there it was just a minority element...

However:

Concerning the population of Eastern Europe, it should be noted that the forest zone of Eastern Europe was the area of intense population admixture [35]. It seems likely, that formation of the complex of Mongoloid traits happened not later than in Upper Paleolithic. For this reason, it is suggested that East Siberian populations could have much time for migration to Eastern Europe [35]. The number of such migrations still remains unclear, since in the northwest of Eastern Europe Mongoloid component is detected 10000–8000 years ago; in Dnepr–Donetsk tribes, 7000–6000 years ago, and on the territory of Ivanovo oblast (Sakhtysh), 6000–5000 years ago [35, 36].



In the latest version of Dodecad for the West Eurasian Cline:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5092/fareast.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/fareast.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Far Eastern influences today.

And now one can remember some authors writing about archemorphic/primitive, part-Mongoliform traits in some LBK-groups. I thought that was just archaic, but probably it was more than that, but this would have to be proven...

[Pallantides]

I see, mail order brides from Asia is not a new phenomenon:coffee:



One mtDNA N1a among them also.:thumb001:

[demiirel]

Well East Asian hunters were pretty mobile people seeing how they migrated to America on foot. A similar westward mass migration 12,000 years ago is highly plausible. High concentrations of East Asian hunters could be found in Hungary. They were simply driven away or exterminated by the eastward expansion of the whites during the later Neolithic and early Bronze Age. Only a few were absorbed.

[Allenson]

I caught this story myself.

I swear, the ancient DNA that has been typed so far has not made deciphering the "peopling of Europe" any easier. On the contrary!

[Agrippa]

Well East Asian hunters were pretty mobile people seeing how they migrated to America on foot. A similar westward mass migration 12,000 years ago is highly plausible. High concentrations of East Asian hunters could be found in Hungary. They were simply driven away or exterminated by the eastward expansion of the whites during the later Neolithic and early Bronze Age. Only a few were absorbed.

Well, like I suggested before, but just to say it even more clearly: Or they were pushed North - became modern Uralics...

[Curtis24]

As far as for Europe, there is virtually not a single time, that neolithic DNA tests showed what we expected to see and I keep beeing entertained by this.



Its more that the field is highly politicized and ambiguous, thus special interests interpret the data to further their agendas.

[demiirel]

Well, like I suggested before, but just to say it even more clearly: Or they were pushed North - became modern Uralics...

Another interesting thing is, the East Asians didn't encounter anybody on their way to America since the land was uninhabited (maybe some Neanderthal remnants?) but they must have encountered some people on their way west, or probably no one if they took a more northern route.

[Agrippa]

Another interesting thing is, the East Asians didn't encounter anybody on their way to America since the land was uninhabited (maybe some Neanderthal remnants?) but they must have encountered some people on their way west, or probably no one if they took a more northern route.

Well, they were mixed most likely, after that is a small sample and gendrift might change many things.

Also, at that time many homogeneous groups could travel through a lot of regions with little contacts to others and often, especially more foreign groups, might have simply ignored each other - I could imagine, that I wouldn't have cared too much about people marching through my area, as long as they "left in time" then...

[demiirel]

Well, they were mixed most likely, after that is a small sample and gendrift might change many things.

Also, at that time many homogeneous groups could travel through a lot of regions with little contacts to others and often, especially more foreign groups, might have simply ignored each other - I could imagine, that I wouldn't have cared too much about people marching through my area, as long as they "left in time" then...

True, true. There wouldn't be too many obstacles in their way.

Them being driven north and forming (or merging with) the Uralics is quite possible. This should partly explain the epicanthic folds and high cheekbones encountered in Scandinavia too.

[Frederick]

Its more that the field is highly politicized and ambiguous, thus special interests interpret the data to further their agendas.

Well, there is usualy nothing to "interpret".

Testing 20 random people from all over a country and getting 12 with a haplogroup wich is at 0.2% in modern day Europe has no need to interpret something into it ;)

Specially if you have EVERYTIME something like that.

And all those "G" (y-DNA) people in neolithic probes, while no R1b to be found anywhere.

It IS totaly unexpected, no need to interpret it in political agendas.

[Humanophage]

In the latest version of Dodecad for the West Eurasian Cline:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5092/fareast.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/fareast.jpg/)

Well, the admixtures are still minor. If one removes North Russians, Russians and Finns the admixtures look like this, which makes it seem like Swedes et al. have significant East Asian admixtures in comparison to Germans:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/Europe-1.png

When in fact they are rather minute. Populations showing any East or North Asian elements phenotypically, such as the Chuvash, seem to score much higher (~25-30% East Asian).

[Agrippa]

True, but nevertheless, certain "rests" could be interpreted as remnants of those elements and that they could have been pushed Northward even might not be totally absurd. After all, most people prefer to live in a more favourable climate, if you have to leave those zones, there is usually a reason. One is, you already adapted to it elsewhere (in Siberia) and just follow those climatic zones, the other, that you lived in a more favourable climate, but were pushed aside by other elements, competitors.

[Lisa]

In the latest version of Dodecad for the West Eurasian Cline:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5092/fareast.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/fareast.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)



Very authoritative source... :(

[Frederick]

Very authoritative source... :(

You could simply wait aother 3 years for a revieved source that possibly says the same ;)