Who are genetically more diverse or heterogenous: Europeans or East Asians?

[Maguzanci]

By East Asians here I'm mainly referring to China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, etc. not SE Asia.

Or is the same level of diversity and heterogeneity?

[Maguzanci]

bump

[Token]

East Asian by very, very far.

[Maguzanci]

East Asian by very, very far.

Wow. Chinese, Japanese and Korean are still genetically more diverse/heterogenous than Europeans? Is it because most Europeans are a multimix of Steppe Herder, Farmer and Hunter Gatherer while East Asians are not as mixed ?

If we include Saamis, Uralics, some Turkics like Tatars or even North Caucasians, would East Asians still be more genetically diverse and heterogenous?

[Token]

Wow. Chinese, Japanese and Korean are still genetically more diverse/heterogenous than Europeans? Is it because most Europeans are a multimix of Steppe Herder, Farmer and Hunter Gatherer while East Asians are not as mixed ?

If we include Saamis, Uralics, some Turkics like Tatars or even North Caucasians, would East Asians still be more genetically diverse and heterogenous?
Europeans are very close to each other in a global scale except for fringe populations with a lot of West Asian ancestry, so i don't know what is so surprising about that.

If you are going to include people who are over 25% East Eurasian as Europeans, of course Europe will be more diverse. East Asia is diverse, but all of these East Asians cited are full or almost full East Eurasian. My answer didn't consider these populations though, because, well, they aren't Europeans.

[Maguzanci]

Europeans are very close to each other in a global scale except for fringe populations with a lot of West Asian ancestry, so i don't know what is so surprising about that.

If you are going to include people who are over 25% East Eurasian as Europeans, of course Europe will be more diverse. East Asia is diverse, but all of these East Asians cited are full or almost full East Eurasian. My answer didn't consider these populations though, because, well, they aren't Europeans.

What ethnic groups are you referring to in the bolded?

In your previous reply, by East Asia do you also include SE Asia or literally "East Asia" in what most understand as China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan, etc? If you means East Asia as genetic term for "Mongoloids" then I agreed that they are a lot more spread apart than Europeans.

Wait, you don't consider Uralics or some Turkics as Europeans? I agreed that North Caucasians aren't Europeans though but sometimes ppl seem to think they are despite the clear genetic difference.

[Chris596]

Hello my friend, great thread, keep up the good work :)

I'm not sure but I think East Asians are more diverse on average. And yes, Europeans are fairly close to each other, despite the fact that it's basically a continent (but a much smaller one when compared to what we call as Asia as a continent). India or China itself would cover most of Europe for example.

[Trouble]

Not an equal comparison because east Asia is much larger when you put all of China, Japan, Korea together. I don’t know if you’re including Mongolia in this too.

My hunch: mile for mile, Europe has more diversity. But overall, East Asia. I will investigate this more once I get on my laptop.

[Maguzanci]

Not an equal comparison because east Asia is much larger when you put all of China, Japan, Korea together. I don’t know if you’re including Mongolia in this too.

My hunch: mile for mile, Europe has more diversity. But overall, East Asia. I will investigate this more once I get on my laptop.

Mainly China, Japan, Korea. Mongolia can also be included.

[Trouble]

Distance to: Tibetan_Lhasa
0.06705088 Han_Shanxi
0.07542332 Han_Henan
0.07683710 Han_Shandong
0.09344340 Han_Jiangsu
0.09476853 Han_Shanghai
0.10156181 Han_Sichuan
0.10483891 Japanese
0.10847140 Han_Hubei
0.11348003 Han_Chongqing
0.11874692 Han_Fujian
0.13855445 Han_Guangdong

I picked the two most western populations of East Asia(but still NE Asian) and compared them to the most eastern pops(Han, Japanese).

Distance to: Mongolian
0.18200781 Han_Shanxi
0.18541845 Japanese
0.18868343 Han_Henan
0.19299240 Han_Shandong
0.20546045 Han_Shanghai
0.20818186 Han_Jiangsu
0.21343601 Han_Sichuan
0.21674159 Han_Hubei
0.22421621 Han_Chongqing
0.22741528 Han_Fujian
0.24080999 Han_Guangdong

Mongolians are starkly different to other NE Euros, probably due to Siberian ancestry.

Now for Europe, taking the most western and eastern pops:
Distance to: English
0.07673761 Russian_Voronez
0.07709806 Russian_Orel
0.07939428 Russian_Kursk
0.07943461 Russian_Smolensk
0.08412617 Russian_Tver
0.09060343 Russian_Kostroma
0.11496717 Russian_Pinega

Distance to: Portuguese
0.12136176 Russian_Voronez
0.12232697 Russian_Orel
0.12497218 Russian_Kursk
0.12596548 Russian_Smolensk
0.13185556 Russian_Tver
0.13773346 Russian_Kostroma
0.16052650 Russian_Pinega

Also, north to south for Europe:
Distance to: Norwegian
0.13240887 Sicilian_West
0.14091887 Sicilian_East


I think we can give it to Europe by a bit actually. Just because Mongolians are too distinct and not representative. But G25 may be biased for west Eurasians so take it with a grain of salt.

[calxpal]

I think East Asians are more diverse genetically.

[Maguzanci]

Distance to: Tibetan_Lhasa
0.06705088 Han_Shanxi
0.07542332 Han_Henan
0.07683710 Han_Shandong
0.09344340 Han_Jiangsu
0.09476853 Han_Shanghai
0.10156181 Han_Sichuan
0.10483891 Japanese
0.10847140 Han_Hubei
0.11348003 Han_Chongqing
0.11874692 Han_Fujian
0.13855445 Han_Guangdong

I picked the two most western populations of East Asia(but still NE Asian) and compared them to the most eastern pops(Han, Japanese).

Distance to: Mongolian
0.18200781 Han_Shanxi
0.18541845 Japanese
0.18868343 Han_Henan
0.19299240 Han_Shandong
0.20546045 Han_Shanghai
0.20818186 Han_Jiangsu
0.21343601 Han_Sichuan
0.21674159 Han_Hubei
0.22421621 Han_Chongqing
0.22741528 Han_Fujian
0.24080999 Han_Guangdong

Mongolians are starkly different to other NE Euros, probably due to Siberian ancestry.

Now for Europe, taking the most western and eastern pops:
Distance to: English
0.07673761 Russian_Voronez
0.07709806 Russian_Orel
0.07939428 Russian_Kursk
0.07943461 Russian_Smolensk
0.08412617 Russian_Tver
0.09060343 Russian_Kostroma
0.11496717 Russian_Pinega

Distance to: Portuguese
0.12136176 Russian_Voronez
0.12232697 Russian_Orel
0.12497218 Russian_Kursk
0.12596548 Russian_Smolensk
0.13185556 Russian_Tver
0.13773346 Russian_Kostroma
0.16052650 Russian_Pinega

Also, north to south for Europe:
Distance to: Norwegian
0.13240887 Sicilian_West
0.14091887 Sicilian_East


I think we can give it to Europe by a bit actually. Just because Mongolians are too distinct and not representative. But G25 may be biased for west Eurasians so take it with a grain of salt.

The Mongolians seem to come from the Western part of Mongolia which has a lot of Caucasoid admixture. You can also try Khamnegan samples, they are also ethnic Mongols but I'm not sure are the sample from Mongolia or Russia.

Would you say the Mongolians are too distinct and not representative just in the same case of Uralics and Saamis for Euros?

[Trouble]

The Mongolians seem to come from the Western part of Mongolia which has a lot of Caucasoid admixture. You can also try Khamnegan samples, they are also ethnic Mongols but I'm not sure are the sample from Mongolia or Russia.

Would you say the Mongolians are too distinct and not representative just in the same case of Uralics and Saamis for Euros?

Yes

[Leto]

I think East Asians are more diverse genetically.
Yet they all kinda look the same :swl

[Maguzanci]

I think East Asians are more diverse genetically.

By East Asians here you only mean literally countries like China/Korea/Japan and doesn't include SE Asia? Because in genetics, East Asians refer not only to aforementioned groups but to all Mongoloids.

[Maguzanci]

Yes

Here the distance of Saamis and Uralics to South of Europe btw:


Distance to: Saami
0.22829387 Spanish_Andalucia
0.23372069 Spanish_Canarias
0.24400434 Greek_Peloponnese
0.24720646 Sicilian_West
0.25320974 Maltese
0.25336900 Italian_Apulia
0.25392277 Sicilian_East
0.25706015 Italian_Campania
0.25861836 Italian_Calabria
0.25896863 Greek_Crete
0.26644983 Greek_Kos

Distance to: Udmurt
0.22171058 Spanish_Andalucia
0.22497425 Spanish_Canarias
0.22730960 Greek_Peloponnese
0.23144015 Sicilian_West
0.23567423 Maltese
0.23574007 Italian_Apulia
0.23678257 Sicilian_East
0.23843159 Greek_Crete
0.23860309 Italian_Campania
0.23968753 Italian_Calabria
0.24524503 Greek_Kos

Distance to: Mari
0.26479046 Spanish_Andalucia
0.26656889 Spanish_Canarias
0.27161353 Greek_Peloponnese
0.27224534 Sicilian_West
0.27717136 Maltese
0.27782882 Sicilian_East
0.27806360 Italian_Apulia
0.27966677 Greek_Crete
0.28056857 Italian_Campania
0.28108040 Italian_Calabria
0.28658993 Greek_Kos

[calxpal]

By East Asians here you only mean literally countries like China/Korea/Japan and doesn't include SE Asia? Because in genetics, East Asians refer not only to aforementioned groups but to all Mongoloids.

I meant countries like China, Korea, and Japan. In my opinion, It's because all Europeans have a fair amount of components in common like EEF, WHG, and Steppe and cluster quite close on PCA's, but I could be wrong.

[RyoHazuki]

The distance between Japan and Korea is the same as England and Spain.

[zebruh]

Europeans are more diverse

[Maguzanci]

Yes

Which one do you think is more analogous to Mongolians and the rest of East Asians: Saamis, Uralics to Euros or South Italians (Calabrians), Sicilians, Cretan and Greek Islanders to the rest of Euros?

[Trouble]

Which one do you think is more analogous to Mongolians and the rest of East Asians: Saamis, Uralics to Euros or South Italians (Calabrians), Sicilians, Cretan and Greek Islanders to the rest of Euros?

The first because Saamis and Uralics have unique components(Siberian) that is lacking in regular Europoids but South Italians/Greek Islanders have the same ancestry in different proportion. Just very ANF shifted versions of northern Euros.

[Maguzanci]

The first because Saamis and Uralics have unique components(Siberian) that is lacking in regular Europoids but South Italians/Greek Islanders have the same ancestry in different proportion. Just very ANF shifted versions of northern Euros.

What unique components that Mongolians possessed that other East Asians don't have? Caucsoid (Steppe and ANE) admix and elevated Siberian?

How about Sardinians to the rest of Euros? Or are Saamis, other Uralics are still more analogous to Mongolians?

Also I believe South Italians/Greek Islanders have actual MENA (Levant and Iran N) that other Euros don't possess?

But Siberian is much more divergent than MENA so maybe that's why.

[Trouble]

What unique components that Mongolians possessed that other East Asians don't have? Caucsoid (Steppe and ANE) admix and elevated Siberian?

How about Sardinians to the rest of Euros? Or are Saamis, other Uralics are still more analogous to Mongolians?

Also I believe South Italians/Greek Islanders have actual MENA (Levant and Iran N) that other Euros don't possess?

But Siberian is much more divergent than MENA so maybe that's why.

1. Yes
2. Yes, im not an expert on Sardinians but they just lack steppe for the most part but still have WHG and ANF. They fit along the cline
3. Yes, but minor. Doesnt make a big impact. Levant_N is basically a sister of ANF anyway.

[RyoHazuki]

Europeans are more diverse

culture and phenotype yes, but def. not genetically.

[zebruh]

culture and phenotype yes, but def. not genetically.Definitely more gentically and phenotypically. A southern european is more mixed than a northern european
And in terms of phenotypes they range from psuedo asian to psuedo arabids and berberids, alantids medditerneans, and scando / germanic.
Range of different color hair and eyes. From pale skin to brown tanned guido at a sicillian night club.

This is all assuming we are talking about east asians. Like chinese, koreans, japanese, mongols siberian natives.

Not central asians, or south asians.

[RyoHazuki]

Definitely more gentically and phenotypically. A southern european is more mixed than a northern european
And in terms of phenotypes they range from psuedo asian to psuedo arabids and berberids, alantids medditerneans, and scando / germanic.
Range of different color hair and eyes. From pale skin to brown tanned guido at a sicillian night club.

This is all assuming we are talking about east asians. Like chinese, koreans, japanese, mongols siberian natives.

Not central asians, or south asians.

Totally wrong.
You're still only talking about phenotypes, not genotypes. Southern Europeans aren't more "mixed" than others, they're genetically exactly the same with different proportions of the same groups (WHG, ENF, Steppe).

Look at the distances between Asian groups, much greater than the ones between Europeans. England and Spain cover a huge portion of the European genome; Korea and Japan alone are the same distance as England and Spain. Now throw in Mongolia, South China, etc and you have a range of genetic diversity several times what's found with Europeans.

[Trouble]

Totally wrong.
You're still only talking about phenotypes, not genotypes. Southern Europeans aren't more "mixed" than others, they're genetically exactly the same with different proportions of the same groups (WHG, ENF, Steppe).

Look at the distances between Asian groups, much greater than the ones between Europeans. England and Spain cover a huge portion of the European genome; Korea and Japan alone are the same distance as England and Spain. Now throw in Mongolia, South China, etc and you have a range of genetic diversity several times what's found with Europeans.

G25 does not indicate a great distance between these east asian groups.

[RyoHazuki]

G25 does not indicate a great distance between these east asian groups.

Distance between Mongolia and Japan is around 18.5%

[Trouble]

Distance between Mongolia and Japan is around 18.5%

Mongolia is an outlier.

[zebruh]

Totally wrong.
You're still only talking about phenotypes, not genotypes. Southern Europeans aren't more "mixed" than others, they're genetically exactly the same with different proportions of the same groups (WHG, ENF, Steppe).

Look at the distances between Asian groups, much greater than the ones between Europeans. England and Spain cover a huge portion of the European genome; Korea and Japan alone are the same distance as England and Spain. Now throw in Mongolia, South China, etc and you have a range of genetic diversity several times what's found with Europeans.

Except that you forget that china is like half of east asia and 99.9 percent is just han chinese, the same ethnic group. Also worlds biggest population

[RyoHazuki]

Mongolia is an outlier.

Not a single average under 2.5% for Japan.

Distance to: Japanese
0.03297112 Korean
0.05584914 Han_Henan
0.05605197 Han_Shandong
0.05841337 Han_Shanxi
0.06392752 Han_Jiangsu
0.06494980 Han_Shanghai
0.06570411 Mongola
0.06788816 Yugur
0.06920993 Han_Zhejiang
0.07173879 Han_Hubei
0.07325979 Xibo
0.07806033 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.07914624 Han_Sichuan
0.08288665 Tu
0.08458356 Han_Fujian
0.08510460 Qiang_Danba
0.08521747 Bonan
0.08631849 Tibetan_Gannan
0.08877742 Tujia
0.08967459 Naxi
0.09058047 Han_Chongqing
0.09198943 Yi
0.09290024 Tibetan_Yajiang
0.09408978 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.09501304 Dungan

[Trouble]

Not a single average under 2.5% for Japan.

Distance to: Japanese
0.03297112 Korean
0.05584914 Han_Henan
0.05605197 Han_Shandong
0.05841337 Han_Shanxi
0.06392752 Han_Jiangsu
0.06494980 Han_Shanghai
0.06570411 Mongola
0.06788816 Yugur
0.06920993 Han_Zhejiang
0.07173879 Han_Hubei
0.07325979 Xibo
0.07806033 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.07914624 Han_Sichuan
0.08288665 Tu
0.08458356 Han_Fujian
0.08510460 Qiang_Danba
0.08521747 Bonan
0.08631849 Tibetan_Gannan
0.08877742 Tujia
0.08967459 Naxi
0.09058047 Han_Chongqing
0.09198943 Yi
0.09290024 Tibetan_Yajiang
0.09408978 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.09501304 Dungan

Still, not as large as the differences between Europeans. Or considering distance.

[RyoHazuki]

Except that you forget that china is like half of east asia and 99.9 percent is just han chinese, the same ethnic group. Also worlds biggest population

That's a matter of demographics, not genetics.

[zebruh]

That's a matter of demographics, not genetics.It is if most of east asians is just han chinese

[Maguzanci]

Not a single average under 2.5% for Japan.

Distance to: Japanese
0.03297112 Korean
0.05584914 Han_Henan
0.05605197 Han_Shandong
0.05841337 Han_Shanxi
0.06392752 Han_Jiangsu
0.06494980 Han_Shanghai
0.06570411 Mongola
0.06788816 Yugur
0.06920993 Han_Zhejiang
0.07173879 Han_Hubei
0.07325979 Xibo
0.07806033 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.07914624 Han_Sichuan
0.08288665 Tu
0.08458356 Han_Fujian
0.08510460 Qiang_Danba
0.08521747 Bonan
0.08631849 Tibetan_Gannan
0.08877742 Tujia
0.08967459 Naxi
0.09058047 Han_Chongqing
0.09198943 Yi
0.09290024 Tibetan_Yajiang
0.09408978 Tibetan_Xunhua
0.09501304 Dungan

Since you mentioned Mongolia in the previous reply, I think counting Saamis and other Uralics as Euros is also ok.

Can you find an East Asian population who have as large genetic distance as these groups?

Distance to: Saami
0.22829387 Spanish_Andalucia
0.23372069 Spanish_Canarias
0.24400434 Greek_Peloponnese
0.24720646 Sicilian_West
0.25320974 Maltese
0.25336900 Italian_Apulia
0.25392277 Sicilian_East
0.25706015 Italian_Campania
0.25861836 Italian_Calabria
0.25896863 Greek_Crete
0.26644983 Greek_Kos

Distance to: Udmurt
0.22171058 Spanish_Andalucia
0.22497425 Spanish_Canarias
0.22730960 Greek_Peloponnese
0.23144015 Sicilian_West
0.23567423 Maltese
0.23574007 Italian_Apulia
0.23678257 Sicilian_East
0.23843159 Greek_Crete
0.23860309 Italian_Campania
0.23968753 Italian_Calabria
0.24524503 Greek_Kos

Distance to: Mari
0.26479046 Spanish_Andalucia
0.26656889 Spanish_Canarias
0.27161353 Greek_Peloponnese
0.27224534 Sicilian_West
0.27717136 Maltese
0.27782882 Sicilian_East
0.27806360 Italian_Apulia
0.27966677 Greek_Crete
0.28056857 Italian_Campania
0.28108040 Italian_Calabria
0.28658993 Greek_Kos

[Deusex99]

East Asians by far if you include the ANE-rich populations of Amuria and Southern Siberia.

[Maguzanci]

East Asians by far if you include the ANE-rich populations of Amuria and Southern Siberia.

I'm not really sure. Here are some ethnic groups from Amur and South Siberia compare to Saamis, Uralics to Europeans

Distance to: Ulchi
0.15200668 Tibetan_Gangcha
0.15950855 Japanese
0.16049594 Korean
0.16219973 Tibetan_Nagqu
0.16404289 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.16430175 Tibetan_Lhasa
0.16462290 Tibetan_Shigatse
0.17487573 Han_Shanxi
0.17890446 Han_Henan
0.17991311 Han_Shandong
0.18063772 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.18754084 Naxi
0.20216386 Han_Zhejiang
0.20512137 Han_Sichuan
0.21738177 Han_Fujian
0.23393537 Han_Guangdong


Distance to: Udmurt
0.22171058 Spanish_Andalucia
0.22497425 Spanish_Canarias
0.22730960 Greek_Peloponnese
0.23144015 Sicilian_West
0.23567423 Maltese
0.23574007 Italian_Apulia
0.23678257 Sicilian_East
0.23843159 Greek_Crete
0.23860309 Italian_Campania
0.23968753 Italian_Calabria
0.24524503 Greek_Kos
0.24681937 Italian_Jew
0.25102600 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.25684918 Greek_Trabzon
0.25897481 Cypriot
0.28517508 Sardinian

Or this:

Distance to: Tuvinian
0.16978896 Tibetan_Gangcha
0.18803828 Tibetan_Shigatse
0.18905706 Tibetan_Lhasa
0.19060436 Tibetan_Nagqu
0.19663307 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.21879619 Han_Shanxi
0.22029273 Japanese
0.22038200 Korean
0.22060356 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.22384128 Naxi
0.22592925 Han_Henan
0.22890134 Han_Shandong
0.24991120 Han_Sichuan
0.25136102 Han_Zhejiang
0.26338888 Han_Fujian
0.27587160 Han_Guangdong

Distance to: Saami
0.22829387 Spanish_Andalucia
0.23372069 Spanish_Canarias
0.24400434 Greek_Peloponnese
0.24720646 Sicilian_West
0.25320974 Maltese
0.25336900 Italian_Apulia
0.25392277 Sicilian_East
0.25706015 Italian_Campania
0.25861836 Italian_Calabria
0.25896863 Greek_Crete
0.26635079 Italian_Jew
0.26644983 Greek_Kos
0.27544258 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.28208573 Cypriot
0.28466368 Greek_Trabzon
0.29179020 Sardinian

[Maguzanci]

East Asians by far if you include the ANE-rich populations of Amuria and Southern Siberia.

I'm not really sure. Here are some ethnic groups from Amur and South Siberia compare to Saamis, Uralics to Europeans

Distance to: Ulchi
0.15200668 Tibetan_Gangcha
0.15950855 Japanese
0.16049594 Korean
0.16219973 Tibetan_Nagqu
0.16404289 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.16430175 Tibetan_Lhasa
0.16462290 Tibetan_Shigatse
0.17487573 Han_Shanxi
0.17890446 Han_Henan
0.17991311 Han_Shandong
0.18063772 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.18754084 Naxi
0.20216386 Han_Zhejiang
0.20512137 Han_Sichuan
0.21738177 Han_Fujian
0.23393537 Han_Guangdong


Distance to: Udmurt
0.22171058 Spanish_Andalucia
0.22497425 Spanish_Canarias
0.22730960 Greek_Peloponnese
0.23144015 Sicilian_West
0.23567423 Maltese
0.23574007 Italian_Apulia
0.23678257 Sicilian_East
0.23843159 Greek_Crete
0.23860309 Italian_Campania
0.23968753 Italian_Calabria
0.24524503 Greek_Kos
0.24681937 Italian_Jew
0.25102600 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.25684918 Greek_Trabzon
0.25897481 Cypriot
0.28517508 Sardinian

Or this:

Distance to: Tuvinian
0.16978896 Tibetan_Gangcha
0.18803828 Tibetan_Shigatse
0.18905706 Tibetan_Lhasa
0.19060436 Tibetan_Nagqu
0.19663307 Tibetan_Chamdo
0.21879619 Han_Shanxi
0.22029273 Japanese
0.22038200 Korean
0.22060356 Tibetan_Xinlong
0.22384128 Naxi
0.22592925 Han_Henan
0.22890134 Han_Shandong
0.24991120 Han_Sichuan
0.25136102 Han_Zhejiang
0.26338888 Han_Fujian
0.27587160 Han_Guangdong

Distance to: Saami
0.22829387 Spanish_Andalucia
0.23372069 Spanish_Canarias
0.24400434 Greek_Peloponnese
0.24720646 Sicilian_West
0.25320974 Maltese
0.25336900 Italian_Apulia
0.25392277 Sicilian_East
0.25706015 Italian_Campania
0.25861836 Italian_Calabria
0.25896863 Greek_Crete
0.26635079 Italian_Jew
0.26644983 Greek_Kos
0.27544258 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.28208573 Cypriot
0.28466368 Greek_Trabzon
0.29179020 Sardinian

[Maguzanci]

Bump.

[Parça do Neymar]

Aren't Taiwanese aboriginals a very fringe autochthonous east asian population too? Do you have Atayal results or something similar?