The Boer War

[Loki]

This was a very interesting war, often referred to as the first 'modern' war.

Lots of interesting info I want to post here. Others are welcome to contribute. This is not an anti-British thread, all views are welcome. :) The Boers and British have a mutual respect for each other, generally speaking - whether they want to admit it or not.

To start off, here is a piece by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle from his book The Great Boer War (http://www.classic-literature.co.uk/scottish-authors/arthur-conan-doyle/the-great-boer-war/):

THE BOER NATIONS.

Take a community of Dutchmen of the type of those who defended themselves for fifty years against all the power of Spain at a time when Spain was the greatest power in the world. Intermix with them a strain of those inflexible French Huguenots who gave up home and fortune and left their country for ever at the time of the revocation of the Edict of Nantes. The product must obviously be one of the most rugged, virile, unconquerable races ever seen upon earth. Take this formidable people and train them for seven generations in constant warfare against savage men and ferocious beasts, in circumstances under which no weakling could survive, place them so that they acquire exceptional skill with weapons and in horsemanship, give them a country which is eminently suited to the tactics of the huntsman, the marksman, and the rider.

Then, finally, put a finer temper upon their military qualities by a dour fatalistic Old Testament religion and an ardent and consuming patriotism. Combine all these qualities and all these impulses in one individual, and you have the modern Boer--the most formidable antagonist who ever crossed the path of Imperial Britain. Our military history has largely consisted in our conflicts with France, but Napoleon and all his veterans have never treated us so roughly as these hard-bitten farmers with their ancient theology and their inconveniently modern rifles.

Look at the map of South Africa, and there, in the very centre of the British possessions, like the stone in a peach, lies the great stretch of the two republics, a mighty domain for so small a people. How came they there? Who are these Teutonic folk who have burrowed so deeply into Africa? It is a twice-told tale, and yet it must be told once again if this story is to have even the most superficial of introductions. No one can know or appreciate the Boer who does not know his past, for he is what his past has made him.

[noricum]

Take some simple-minded, bigoted farmers from north-western europe. Let them breed under harsh, brutal and dysgenetic conditions in southern africa, far away from any progressive cultural influence, where they can settle their illogical and backwarded religious beliefs.
Finally, give them the finest up to date Mauser rifles. j/k

No offence! I appreciate the Boers and their history, but if even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle can write this absurdly one-sided, I can do too.

[Nglund]

I have a very distant relative who fought in this war (I think I posted his picture on the members pictures thread at one point).
Sorry Loki, my ancestors killed your ancestors, toomba toowa :(

[Loki]

No offence! I appreciate the Boers and their history, but if even Sir Arthur Conan Doyle can write this absurdly one-sided, I can do too.

Why is it absurdly one-sided?

You do realise of course that Conan Doyle was not on the Boers' side? In fact, he served in the British army in the Boer War:



Following the Boer War in South Africa at the turn of the 20th century and the condemnation from around the world over the United Kingdom's conduct, Conan Doyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Conan_Doyle) wrote a short pamphlet titled The War in South Africa: Its Cause and Conduct, which justified the UK's role in the Boer War and was widely translated. Doyle had served as a volunteer doctor in the Langman Field Hospital at Bloemfontein between March and June 1900 .


I think he should know more about its history than an ignorant Austrian.

[Sol Invictus]

This war was very unpopular for the French in Canada where many people viewed it as crushing a democratic minority group reminiscent of French-Canadians themselves, but we did contribute combat units to the war. 8,600 Canadians volunteered to fight in the South African War.

[Albion]

Take some simple-minded, bigoted farmers from north-western europe. Let them breed under harsh, brutal and dysgenetic conditions in southern africa, far away from any progressive cultural influence, where they can settle their illogical and backwarded religious beliefs.
Finally, give them the finest up to date Mauser rifles. j/k

Are you a Negro?

[Curtis24]

I highly suggest the movie "Breaker Morant", if you ever get the chance. It highlights some of the British hypocrisy during the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaker_Morant_(film)

http://i53.tinypic.com/i51zzr.jpg

[Joe McCarthy]

A British victory, sorta, but fought very unconventionally. Good railroads and concentration camps did the trick. In three years of conflict though the casualties are striking: Boers: 6,000. British: 22,000.

[Curtis24]

Joe, that doesn't include casualties of Boer civilians. It was a dirty war. The British herded Boer civilians into concentration camps, where women and children died of diseases. And as the movie Breaker Morant shows, the British also created special commando units - mostly of Australian soldiers - to commit atrocities against the Boers.

After the war, three of those commando soldiers were put on trial, and two executed, for committing the atrocities they had been ordered to commit.

[noricum]

Of course i know that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was British. It's just easier for the self-esteem to loose a war against "superheros" than a bunch of farmers, what they where (those who actually fought). It's beyond controversy that the Boers where excellent fighters, but his text you posted pictures Boers as "Übermenschen". What i dare to say they where not.

[Loki]

There were some interesting battles fought. I will start off with Magersfontein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Magersfontein) - where the Scandinavian Corps was destroyed (part of the foreign volunteers who came to fight for the Boers - I will elaborate more on them later).

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/233/magersfontein.jpg

The Scandinavian Corps suffered heavy casualties, and Paul Kruger remarked: "next to God we can thank the Scandinavians for our victory".

The volunteers from Scandinavia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Boer-war-volunteers_from_Finland%26Scandinavia.jpg

There is a monument erected in SA at the location in their honour:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Skandinawiese_monument_magersfontein.JPG/800px-Skandinawiese_monument_magersfontein.JPG

[Albion]

I don't think we need yet another guilt trip.

Strange though isn't it? The PC liberal sort are all too happy to tell us about the Europeans and how they treated Negroids, yet have little time to tell us of the Boer war.

[Joe McCarthy]

Joe, that doesn't include casualties of Boer civilians. It was a dirty war. The British herded Boer civilians into concentration camps, where women and children died of diseases. And as the movie Breaker Morant shows, the British also created special commando units - mostly of Australian soldiers - to commit atrocities against the Boers.

After the war, three of those commando soldiers were put on trial, and two executed, for committing the atrocities they had been ordered to commit.

These refer to combatant casualties, naturally. It's just an indicator of the hardy nature of the Boer battlefield performance.

[Loki]

Of course i know that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was British. It's just easier for the self-esteem to loose a war against "superheros" than a bunch of farmers, what they where (those who actually fought). It's beyond controversy that the Boers where excellent fighters, but his text you posted pictures Boers as "Übermenschen". What i dare to say they where not.

Nobody said they were ubermenschen. They were, however, far more than just placid farmers. They moved inland (refusing to live under British control), were pioneers and tamed a wild land - built towns and founded cities. Opened mines and created an economy. Hardly a bunch of pastoralists. I know the history of my family, they were constantly in conflict since arrival in 1666, and that they even managed to do farming as well boggles my mind.

[Loki]

I don't think we need yet another guilt trip.


It's not meant to be a guilt trip, as I mentioned in my first post. :) The British were also extremely brave, and it was a landmark war. If I hated the British I wouldn't have been here in London.

[noricum]

Nobody said they were ubermenschen. They were, however, far more than just placid farmers.

Yes, settlers, herders, warriors, calvinists.
It' true that nobody directly said that that Boers are Übermenschen, still Doyle's text you posted tends in this directon imo.


They moved inland (refusing to live under British control), were pioneers and tamed a wild land - built towns and founded cities.

Those who migrated only a few generations ago, are more likely to move again. It's well known process, what doesn't diminsh their great archievements in regards of european settlement in southern africa.



Opened mines and created an economy.

Most mines were actually owned by uitlanders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witwatersrand_Gold_Rush
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randlord

[Loki]

Those who migrated only a few generations ago, are more likely to move again. It's well known process, what doesn't diminsh their great archievements in regards of european settlement in southern africa.


Well, I disagree. Their ultimate goal was to settle down. That's why they founded the Boer Republics in order to have a homeland and stability, at last.

Also, not all Afrikaners migrated onwards. Some chose to be subservient and stay on at the Cape.

[noricum]

Well, I disagree. Their ultimate goal was to settle down. That's why they founded the Boer Republics in order to have a homeland and stability, at last.

That was their goal for sure, but once they say their traditions endangered it didn't take much for them to move on. Self-evident that was easier due to the fact that they had enough almost unpopulated areas to move.


Also, not all Afrikaners migrated onwards. Some chose to be subservient and stay on at the Cape.

Largely the urbanised Boers rather than those who lived in a traditional Boer lifestyle.

[Loki]

That was their goal for sure, but once they say their traditions endangered it didn't take much for them to move on. Self-evident that was easier due to the fact that they had enough almost unpopulated areas to move.

Largely the urbanised Boers rather than those who lived in a traditional Boer lifestyle.

I don't think you know what you're talking about, you're just rambling on.

[Moonbird]

There were some interesting battles fought. I will start off with Magersfontein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Magersfontein) - where the Scandinavian Corps was destroyed (part of the foreign volunteers who came to fight for the Boers - I will elaborate more on them later).


I know that Finland-Swedes also took part in the Scandinavian Corps. Some of them were after the battle brought as war prisoners by the British army to St Helena, where they came to spend more than 2 years.

[Logan]

6Rvz6O1vPWU

Reminiscent and foreboding.

[Phil75231]

I know a little about the Boer War, given that I know at least the basic patterns of S Af history (though still far short of even an average native S Af's knowledge, let alone a scholarly one).

Where world opinion was concerned, the Boer War was to the UK what Vietnam was to the USA - very unpopular with other countries. The only difference is that the UK won their war. In fact, I understand Germany - a powerful nation even at that time - threatened to intervene in the war on the Boers' side. Of course, I think Britain's navy would have made short work of the Kaiser's fleet.

Britain, like Spain in Cuba in the Spanish-American War, used concentration camps imprison potential sympathizers. Only they really bungled it up, especially on humanitarian grounds (starving Boer women and children). The humanitarian aspect itself was brought to the world's attention by a British woman. More about this from wikipedia. Just how reliable it is about this, I leave to your judgement ( Concentration Camps 1900-1902 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War#Concentration_camps_.281900_-_1902.29)).

[Loki]

vtKKJSfYraU

[Loki]

... his text you posted pictures Boers as "Übermenschen". What i dare to say they where not.

You sure about that?

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3532/isandlwana.jpghttp://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9949/bloodriver.jpg

TD6dLx8iVTs

[Austrvegr]

Many Russian volunteers sided with the Boers. For example, Colonel Yevgeniy Maksimov, who commanded the Dutch Volunteer Corps.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/maksimov.jpg

[Joe McCarthy]

Many Russian volunteers sided with the Boers. For example, Colonel Yevgeniy Maksimov, who commanded the Dutch Volunteer Corps.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/maksimov.jpg

They would. Russia and Britain were arch-enemies at the time.

[Loki]

Yes I know! And apparently I have some Russian ancestry too, not yet sure where from. :) I have a few Russian cousins on 23andme and show some Eastern European genetic influence. They are typical ethnic Russians.

Alexander Guchkov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Guchkov)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Guchkov.jpg/220px-Guchkov.jpg

Leo Pokrowsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Pokrowsky)



Leo Pokrowsky ( - 25 December 1900, Utrecht, Kwazulu Natal, South Africa) was a Pole and Captain in the Russian Army, who fought and died on the side of the Boers during the Second Anglo-Boer War. He was killed on Christmas Day 1900 when he and his men attacked the British garrison in Utrecht.

A commemorative plaque to his memory can be seen on the Burgher monument in the town of Utrecht.


Niko the Boer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niko_the_Boer) (well, not ethnic Russian)



Niko Bagrationi (Georgian: ნიკო ბაგრატიონი; Russian: Николай Багратион, Nikolay Georgievich Bagration) (1868–1933) was a Georgian nobleman who fought as a volunteer officer in the Boer army during the Second Boer War (Anglo-Boer war). He was also known in Georgia as Niko the Boer (ნიკო ბური, Niko Buri).
A member of the Mukhrani branch of the Bagrationi family (formerly a royal dynasty of Georgia), he was born at the Mukhrani castle near Tbilisi (then Tiflis, Imperial Russia). He represented Georgian nobility at the Russian Tsar Alexander III’s coronation in 1881.

In 1899, he attended the Paris international exhibition and was going to leave for big-game hunting when he heard that the Anglo-Boer war had broken out. He later wrote in his memoirs that although he had never heard of the Transvaal until then, its struggle for independence reminded him of his motherland. Thus, he was the first volunteer from Russia to arrive in Pretoria where he was welcomed by the Boer statesman Paul Kruger and his generals.

Prince Bagrationi quickly won popularity among the Boers and was promoted to colonel. Later, he was taken prisoner by the British and summoned by Lord Kitchener to explain his conduct – a memorable confrontation in which he accused Kitchener of atrocities. He escaped execution because of his royal descent and was exiled to St Helena, where he remained very cheerful and organizing sports and other activities for his fellow prisoners.

He was soon released, and Bagrationi returned to France and then to Georgia, where he wrote a memoir, Burebtan ("With the Boers"; published in Tbilisi, 1951), about his experiences in South Africa. After the Sovietization of Georgia in 1921, he openly opposed Bolshevik rule and lost his property, but surprisingly survived the 1920s purges that targeted Georgian nobility. He ended his days in poverty, selling cigarettes at the Tbilisi marketplace, still dressed in princely garments.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Eug%C3%A8ne_Pirou._Niko_Bagrationi-Mukhraneli_%28Buri%29_sitting%2C_his_French_friend _De_Breda._Just_after_released_from_the_English_ca ptivity.jpg/464px-Eug%C3%A8ne_Pirou._Niko_Bagrationi-Mukhraneli_%28Buri%29_sitting%2C_his_French_friend _De_Breda._Just_after_released_from_the_English_ca ptivity.jpg


Many Russian volunteers sided with the Boers. For example, Colonel Yevgeniy Maksimov, who commanded the Dutch Volunteer Corps.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f161/11aaabbb11/maksimov.jpg

[Loki]

They would. Russia and Britain were arch-enemies at the time.

Yeah, Crimean War ...

[beaver]

They would. Russia and Britain were arch-enemies at the time.
But also arch-allies in the most other critical situations. The semi-virtual "Big Game" in the North India and Central Asia is one thing (or the virtual Cold War - between Anglo-Saxons and Russians finally), WW1/2 are quite another ones.
As to the Boer War, I've been certain from the childhood that Boers had magazine rifles while British soldiers still had single-shot rifles but this is another fake judging by http://dictionary.sensagent.com/first+boer+war/en-en/


Most of the Boers had single-shot breech loading rifle such as the Westley Richards, the Martini-Henry, or the Remington Rolling Block. Only a few had repeaters like the Winchester or the Swiss Vetterli.

[Austrvegr]

But also arch-allies in the most other critical situations. The semi-virtual "Big Game" in the North India and Central Asia is one thing

The Big Game is over, Persia is divided, Russian and English officers are patrolling the streets of Isfahan together in 1907.

:)

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae74/aiwn-13/isfahan.jpg

[Joe McCarthy]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game


The Great Game or Tournament of Shadows (Russian: ??????? ?????, Turniry Teney) in Russia, were terms for the strategic rivalry and conflict between the British Empire and the Russian Empire for supremacy in Central Asia. The classic Great Game period is generally regarded as running approximately from the Russo-Persian Treaty of 1813 to the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907.

[beaver]

Its a little off here but I would recommend "Kim" by Kipling to view the Big/Great Game from inside. English and Russian intelligence services fought against each other up to the middle of India. Also, I suspect that not all Russian volunteers in South Africa were simply volunteers just for these reasons.

[Logan]

'Shoot straight you bastards. Don't make a mess of it.'


Australia questions Boer War court martial
2011-10-21 11:06

'Sydney - Australian Attorney-General Robert McClelland on Friday said he would raise concerns about the fairness of the 1902 court martial of Boer War fighter Harry "Breaker" Morant with the British government.

Morant was executed by firing squad, along with fellow Australian soldier Peter Handcock, over the killing of a group of Boer prisoners but more than a century later questions are still raised over whether they had a fair trial.

"The competing assertions still evoke considerable emotion even to this day," McClelland said, adding that the case involved complex questions of law and historical evidence.

"I have been persuaded that this case does raise procedural fairness concerns. This is of particular interest to me because fair and proper process is at the heart of our justice system."

McClelland said he would write to the British government to ensure it was aware that questions existed as to whether the men received fair judicial treatment, in accordance with the standards accepted at the time.

Secret orders

In 2010, British lawmakers rejected a call from Australian MPs for an official pardon for Morant whose story has become a cause célèbre and formed the basis of the movie Breaker Morant starring the late Edward Woodward.

Military historian James Unkles has taken up the case, arguing that Morant did not receive a fair trial over the killing of 12 prisoners of war and that he and his co-accused were denied the right to prepare their cases.

He has also cited allegations that British military commander Lord Kitchener, the moustachioed face of the famous "Your Country Needs You" World War I recruitment poster, issued secret orders to shoot Boer prisoners.

But Ashley Ekins, a historian who heads the Australian War Memorial, a government body, has said the soldiers were found guilty of "cold-blooded murder" in a process consistent with military justice of the time.

Morant, a horse-breaker and sometime poet, volunteered to fight with the British against Boer settlers during the 1899 - 1902 war which established colonies that eventually formed part of South Africa.'

http://www.news24.com/World/News/Australia-questions-Boer-War-court-martial-20111021



'Wheels of justice gind slow but grind fine'

Sun Tzu

[Piparskeggr]

As a boy, I was acquainted with an old man in my hometown, Mr Aschenbach.

He died in 1973 at the age of 105, I was 16; used to hunt rabbits on his farm.

Mr Aschenbach came to the US as a POW during WW 1, and stayed afterwards. He was a career soldier in the Imperial German Army until his capture in 1918 by American soldiers.

He was transported back to the US and ended up being paroled to an older couple, who had a farm in my hometown. He was sponsored by them to stay in the US after the war and inherited from them. His children donated the farm to the town for use as parkland.

As a 30-something sergeant, he was deployed from his posting in Namibia to train Boer riflemen. Officially, he was aide de camp to a German "Observer."

I have been very fortunate in the depth and variety of my acquaintance over the years.