Bosniak politicians “pushing Bosnia towards disintegration”

[poiuytrewq0987]

He also accused them of pushing Bosnia-Herzegovina towards disintegration and further away from EU membership.

“Their inability to deal with those who represent a threat to the country's security and all the malversations in the destroying of weapons and explosives prove that Bosniak officials are disrupting the stability and security in Bosnia-Herzegovina," Radmanović told Belgrade-based daily Večernje novosti.

He said that "Sarajevo politicians are neither capable of nor do they want to establish the rule of law, but at the same time they want to be absolute rules of the entire country," which, as he put it, "brings Bosnia-Herzegovina further away from the EU and leads it towards disintegration."

“The intelligence-security agencies in Bosnia-Herzegovina are inefficient in the fight against terrorism because of the political obstructions," Radmanović concluded.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=26&nav_id=76560

[Guapo]

Help bazniaaaaaaaaa alahu ekhber

[BanjaLuka]

Its time for a new WAAAAARRR!!

Its the WAAARRR that keeps us strong :D

With forks, spoons, toothpicks and empty bellies they will charge each other at the inter-entity lines, and I'll be selling tickets for the front row center :eek::D

:coffee:

May the games begin, keep the "hepek" ready :eek:

D8RJjJOTGx8

[Bugarash]

Republic of Srpska should be abolished...

[BanjaLuka]

Republic of Srpska should be abolished...

It can be only abolished by the will and consensus of all the constitutive people of Bosnia & Herzegovina and it will never happen. It means that even if Serbs and Croats agreed it would be enough for Bosniaks to say we disagree :D (oh yeah as if they would disagree:lightbul:) and it could not be abolished. Nothing in Bosnia & Herzegovina can be done against national interest of its three constituent people Bosniaks, Serbs, Croats. There must be consensus among them always.

There are also Jews and Gypsies (Roma people) looking to become constituent people as well :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejdi%C4%87_and_Finci_v._Bosnia_and_Herzegovina

Without Republika Srpska there is no Bosnia&Herzegovina as sovereign country.:lightbul:


3. Composition
Bosnia and Herzegovina shall consist of the two Entities, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Republika Srpska (hereinafter "the Entities").


2. Responsibilities of the Entities
a) The Entities shall have the right to establish special parallel relationships with neighboring states consistent with the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
b) Each Entity shall provide all necessary assistance to the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to enable it to honor the international obligations of Bosnia and Herzegovina, provided that financial obligations incurred by one Entity without the consent of the other prior to the election of the Parliamentary Assembly and Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall be the responsibility of that Entity, except insofar as the obligation is necessary for continuing the membership of Bosnia and Herzegovina in an international organization.
c) The Entities shall provide a safe and secure environment for all persons in their respective jurisdictions, by maintaining civilian law enforcement agencies operating in accordance with internationally recognized standards and with respect for the internationally recognized human rights and fundamental freedoms referred to in Article II above, and by taking such other measures as appropriate.
d) Each Entity may also enter into agreements with states and international organizations with the consent of the Parliamentary Assembly. The Parliamentary Assembly may provide by law that certain types of agreements do not require such consent.


3. Law and Responsibilities of the Entities and the Institutions
a) All governmental functions and powers not expressly assigned in this Constitution to the institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall be those of the Entities.
b) The Entities and any subdivisions thereof shall comply fully with this Constitution, which supersedes inconsistent provisions of the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina and of the constitutions and law of the Entities, and with the decisions of the institutions of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The general principles of international law shall be an integral part of the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Entities.


Many people are not introduced and have not read Bosnia & Herzegovina constitution...

THERE >MUST< be consensus of all three constituent peoples.

Keep in mind that I write all this from the Capital of Republika Srpska, a city named Banjaluka ;)

[Smart Aleck]

Godina je 1992. Počeo rat u Bosni. U Banja Luci na kontrolnoj točki srpski policajac zaustavio jednog Cigu koji se u svojem trošnom autu spremao napustiti grad. Pita ga policajac: "Što si ti po nacionalnosti?" Cigo odgovori: "Ja sam Cigo." Policajac se pomalo naljuti i kaže: "Ma nisam mislio to, nego jesi li Srbin, Hrvat ili Musliman?" A Cigo odgovori: "A ne, toliki opet cigan nisam."

[Guapo]

Help bazniaaaa baaaaaa

[BanjaLuka]

Help bazniaaaa baaaaaa

:D
She heard your call!
SOIOr23Rtvo

[Thundermark]

Situation in Bosnia today is like this because those who were the mightiest in the previous war got partially what they wanted. The wind often shifts its course. ;)

[Smart Aleck]

Gypsies and Jews have to be recognized as constituent peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina too. What we have now is a kind of injustice.

[Thundermark]

Gypsies and Jews have to be recognized as constituent peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina too. What we have now is a kind of injustice.

Bosnia needs to be recognized as a citizens state, in that way all residents will have their justice. ;)

[Monolith]

Bosnia needs to be recognized as a citizens state, in that way all residents will have their justice. ;)
That's science fiction.

[Thundermark]

Well, so is greater Serbia and Croatia but some guys just wont stop bitching about it. ;)

[Monolith]

Well, so is greater Serbia and Croatia but some guys just wont stop bitching about it. ;)
Greater Croatia?

[Thundermark]

Revival of NDH idea is on-going process among the political refugees across the globe and among the youth in Croatia, as I have heard. Maybe I am wrong?

[Monolith]

Revival of NDH idea is on-going process among the political refugees across the globe and among the youth in Croatia, as I have heard. Maybe I am wrong?
Hardly anyone cares about that, really. Those who are informed about the subject would perhaps favor some kind of reunification with Croats from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but nothing like NDH. What would we do with all those Bosniaks and Serbs?

[Thundermark]

Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara?

[Siberyak]

I dream of a day when all Balkan Muslims are deported to there homeland of Turkey.

[Smart Aleck]

I dream of a day when all Balkan Muslims are deported to there homeland of Turkey.

Come here and try, instead of scribbling on the internet.

[Guapo]

I dream of a day when all Balkan Muslims are deported to there homeland of Turkey.

One day :thumb001:

[Thundermark]

If you would deport all balkan muslims to Turkey, that country would look more European then Greece + Serbia. :D

Serbs want territory from others so they are bitching about islam but they will never have Bosnia , with or without islam. Its up to Bosnian muslim in future to decide whether they will abandon islam or stay in it but that is not related to Serbs whatsoever because they are foreigners in Bosnia. Ottomans brought two things to Bosnia - Islam and Serbs. At least, blood of Bosnian muslims is domestic - Bosnian blood, those who want to create some fake entities on the holy land of the Bosnian kings are Vlach shepherds from the other side of Drina - holy border since the time of the Romans. ;)

Guapo, R U afraid of Jobbik? :D

[Magister Eckhart]

Why not just kill off the Mohammedans and then give the country to its rightful owners: the Croats and Serbs.

[BanjaLuka]

Why not just kill off the Mohammedans and then give the country to its rightful owners: the Croats and Serbs.

Let me see If I understood you well, just so we are clear, you are calling for genocide against all Muslims pred. Bosniaks in Bosnia, right?

[Thundermark]

Why not just kill off the Mohammedans and then give the country to its rightful owners: the Croats and Serbs.

:D

Historical ethnic border between Bosnians and Serbs is the Drina river and between Bosnian and Croats - upper Vrbas and Bosnian Krajina. Bosnia is indeed land shaped by Christianity and its native Slavic tradition but until the 19. century, for most of Bosnians Serbs and Croats were just south Slavic brothers and neighbors. Although your opinion is shaped by Serbian and Croatian propaganda about ethnic character of Bosnia ,undeniable fact stays that Bosnians in Bosnia proper never ( before 19. century) called themselves by any name except the Bosnian and Slavic one. Get over it. ;)

Also, I did not know that Jesus Christ approves mass-murders. ;)

[Storm 1995]

There will never be citizens' Bosnia. That is science fiction.

There are two possible ways out of the current impasse Bosnia has found itself in:

1. radical cantonization of Bosnia (division into many ethnic regions, "cantons", something similar to the original plan for Bosnia proposed by the European Community in 1992, but rejected by all sides);

2. partition of Bosnia into three, meaning that one part goes to Croatia, other part to Serbia, and in the center of Bosnia and Herzegovina some kind of Bosniak (Muslim) state is founded, an heir to the former state of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

[Storm 1995]

Although your opinion is shaped by Serbian and Croatian propaganda about ethnic character of Bosnia ,undeniable fact stays that Bosnians in Bosnia proper never ( before 19. century) called themselves by any name except the Bosnian and Slavic one.

They called themselves by many desgnations, but that's hardly relevant for the present situation.

[Thundermark]

Citizens Bosnia is something you Croats need to fight for because in 50 years you will be less numbered then Jews and gipsies. I am sorry because of that, I do really think that you are the most civilized group in modern bosnia but its your fault that you choose Zagreb imperial policy and fake Croatian identity while your ancestors are turning in their graves. ;)
Serbs are in better situation than you but Serbia is collapsing quickly, Kosovo, Montenegro are out and now crisis spread over Vojvodina where Serbs want autonomy from Serbia and in "Sanjak" where fundamentalist Islam is growing and government cant do a thing against it. Meanwhile, Hungarian and Bulgarian nationalists are ready. So called republic of srpska will lose its background and then that will be nice playground for some people who want revenge so badly and do not forget that two parts of that "entity" are tied only with simple highway in brčko. ;)
On the other hand, people who identify themselves with Bosnian statehood are more numbered then before the previous war started. Your two scenarios for bosnia are the real science-fiction. ;)
Today, the political situation here is bad but smart people can see the future well. ;)


My post about ethnic past of Bosnians was related to statements that Serbs and Croats are the true owners of the country which is by all standards untrue and offensive.

[Storm 1995]

My post about ethnic past of Bosnians was related to statements that Serbs and Croats are the true owners of the country which is by all standards untrue and offensive.

Don't confuse my views with those coming from these miserable degenerates who say all Bosnian Muslims should be killed, deported to Turkey or forced to abandon Islam. I didn't say anything like that. I think Bosniaks (Muslims, that is) deserve some area of their own and that some kind of Bosniakia (or Muslimania, or simply Bosnia, however you choose to call it) should be formed. I know, it would be hard to draw frontiers, but nothing is impossible. This kind of tripartite division would guarantee lasting peace since this "Bosniakia" would actually be a buffer zone between Croatia and Serbia, which would prevent further wars between the two peoples and guarantee the survival of Bosniaks on their ethnic territory.


Citizens Bosnia is something you Croats need to fight for because in 50 years you will be less numbered then Jews and gipsies.

Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina have their compact territories which they effectually control (although they are formally incorporated into the so-called Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina), such as western Herzegovina, along with Livno and Duvno areas, as well as one part of Posavina. They have their local administration, it's their territory and be sure they will always defend it as their own, no matter what their percentage in the overall population of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

[Thundermark]

Listen, I dont like Islam and I want full cultural and ethnic revolution for all Bosnians so your hatred or sympathy or whatever for the religious side of the story is really irrelevant for me. ;)

I sometimes think about this solution: to take bosnia of ban Kulin and turn that into one entity, other two would be western bosnia and Herzegovina. What do you think?

[Storm 1995]

Listen, I dont like Islam and I want full cultural and ethnic revolution for all Bosnians so your hatred or sympathy or whatever for the religious side of the story is really irrelevant for me. ;)

I know.

I was just referring to these frustrated whackos from western Europe and America and their silly views.


I sometimes think about this solution: to take bosnia of ban Kulin and turn that into one entity, other two would be western bosnia and Herzegovina. What do you think?

Utopian...

Just for the record, prior to the war Bosnian Muslims (today called "Bosniaks") were in relatively good relations with Serbs, many of them were in favour of maintaining Yugoslavia and were by no means favourable to its disintegration.

[Thundermark]

Bosnian muslims even saved a lot of Serbian lives in WWII.

[Monolith]

Ottomans brought two things to Bosnia - Islam and Serbs.
Serbs were already present at least in Podrinje. You're right though, the biggest expansion of their name, culture and Orthodox religion happened during the Ottoman rule.

Why not just kill off the Mohammedans and then give the country to its rightful owners: the Croats and Serbs.
They're native there.

Although your opinion is shaped by Serbian and Croatian propaganda about ethnic character of Bosnia ,undeniable fact stays that Bosnians in Bosnia proper never ( before 19. century) called themselves by any name except the Bosnian and Slavic one.
Never is a long time. Besides, there's no doubt that at least the ancestors of those Bosniaks hailing from Bosanska krajina once called themselves Croats and that the Ottoman invaders used the same name for various residents of Bosnia on numerous occasions. But that's of little importance today. Their allegiance lies elsewhere.

Don't confuse my views with those coming from these miserable degenerates who say all Bosnian Muslims should be killed, deported to Turkey or forced to abandon Islam. I didn't say anything like that. I think Bosniaks (Muslims, that is) deserve some area of their own and that some kind of Bosniakia (or Muslimania, or simply Bosnia, however you choose to call it) should be formed. I know, it would be hard to draw frontiers, but nothing is impossible. This kind of tripartite division would guarantee lasting peace since this "Bosniakia" would actually be a buffer zone between Croatia and Serbia, which would prevent further wars between the two peoples and guarantee the survival of Bosniaks on their ethnic territory.

You're wasting time. Guys like him would be overjoyed to assimilate all Bosnian Croats and Serbs into some artificial Bosnian national identity.

[Thundermark]

Guys like him would be overjoyed to assimilate all Bosnian Croats and Serbs into some artificial Bosnian national identity.

All national identities are fake, you Croats should know that and I can explain this if you want. ;) Some were created earlier and some are still under construction. The fact is that Bosnian nationality is the only one with the firm ground in Bosnian history and it was not created yet because Bosnian national revival failed and was destroyed by Turks. I am not thinking of Dragon of bosnia here but of Bosnian Franciscan monks like Jukić, Knežević, Baltić, Lastrić, Nedić etc.

Assimilation of Bosnian Croats back to the bosnianism would be logic thing to do because they were fully assimilated into Croatian nation just some 100 years or so.
They should be proud of their ancestors who named themselves Bosnians, their language Bosnian and who did not spit on bones of Bosnian kings with foreign ethnic mark.

This what I said does not apply to all Croats in Bosnia , in some earlier debates I have stated that I dont consider all territory of modern Bosnia to be part of Bosnian ethnic space. Croats in the west of the country are true Croats and I respect their identity.


there's no doubt that at least the ancestors of those Bosniaks hailing from Bosanska krajina once called themselves Croats

I cant agree more. Modern Bosniaks from Krajina and Sanjak/Raška are nothing but Croats and Serbs converted to Islam who have hard time identifying with Croatia or Serbian nation because those were created on Catholicism/Orthodoxy.

[Magister Eckhart]

Let me see If I understood you well, just so we are clear, you are calling for genocide against all Muslims pred. Bosniaks in Bosnia, right?

Hey, somebody has to cut this Gordian Knot. :D


:D

Historical ethnic border between Bosnians and Serbs is the Drina river and between Bosnian and Croats - upper Vrbas and Bosnian Krajina. Bosnia is indeed land shaped by Christianity and its native Slavic tradition but until the 19. century, for most of Bosnians Serbs and Croats were just south Slavic brothers and neighbors. Although your opinion is shaped by Serbian and Croatian propaganda about ethnic character of Bosnia ,undeniable fact stays that Bosnians in Bosnia proper never ( before 19. century) called themselves by any name except the Bosnian and Slavic one. Get over it. ;)

Also, I did not know that Jesus Christ approves mass-murders. ;)

Generally speaking, he doesn't. But I'm sure He'd make an exception considering what a pain-in-the-neck fmr. Yugoslavia has become. :p


All jests aside, the truth probably is that there is no real solution to this problem: it is a Gordian Knot in the truest sense, and cutting it will require levels of inhumanity that I think would make Stalin blush. If it is really so impossible for these people to live side-by-side, why do they? Truly, it seems to me there was a lot less animosity and conflict under Austrian Hapsburg rule, which is ironic considering how all that ended.

That makes me think, though: has there ever been a time when this area was not subject to another, greater power? Rome, Byzantium, Venice, the Turks, Austria: if there were independent states, they typically were very short-lived indeed. Perhaps that is at the root of all this: self government does not come naturally to the area. But that's a problem, not a solution. Many have joked that if Yugoslavia keeps Balkanising it will just become city-states: perhaps the joke has some quality to it. What if Banjaluka and Serajevo and all the others just became self-governing states for a time, and then built-up to a unity, instead of starting off as an artificial unity and breaking down into a state of war and chaos?

[BanjaLuka]

Hey, somebody has to cut this Gordian Knot. :D



Generally speaking, he doesn't. But I'm sure He'd make an exception considering what a pain-in-the-neck fmr. Yugoslavia has become. :p


All jests aside, the truth probably is that there is no real solution to this problem: it is a Gordian Knot in the truest sense, and cutting it will require levels of inhumanity that I think would make Stalin blush. If it is really so impossible for these people to live side-by-side, why do they? Truly, it seems to me there was a lot less animosity and conflict under Austrian Hapsburg rule, which is ironic considering how all that ended.

That makes me think, though: has there ever been a time when this area was not subject to another, greater power? Rome, Byzantium, Venice, the Turks, Austria: if there were independent states, they typically were very short-lived indeed. Perhaps that is at the root of all this: self government does not come naturally to the area. But that's a problem, not a solution. Many have joked that if Yugoslavia keeps Balkanising it will just become city-states: perhaps the joke has some quality to it. What if Banjaluka and Serajevo and all the others just became self-governing states for a time, and then built-up to a unity, instead of starting off as an artificial unity and breaking down into a state of war and chaos?

More BS I have not read in a long time, that's verbal diarrhea in its purest form. I bet you got cerebral orgasm when you finished writing it :D

[Magister Eckhart]

More BS I have not read in a long time, that's verbal diarrhea in its purest form. I bet you got cerebral orgasm when you finished writing it :D

What's wrong with it? I understand how one such as yourself might be offended at my little genocide joke, but I made good on the joke by replacing it with a serious proposal. I maintain that the entire area might be better-off with less artificial unity rather than more. It sounds like it would work better than anything you people have tried so far. From watching Serbs at the throats of Croats and Croats attacking Serbs and the Saracen Bosniaks in the middle, it seems to me that any attempt to get these three together would result in the same result again and again. Better to give them their space - and since they seem to be dispersed so widely in the area, instead of forcing one group or another to move (as the Serbs tried) or forcing them all to live together (as Bosnia is trying), why not just give individual regions autonomy and let them ally themselves with other regions as they see fit. The notion that there cannot be enclaves or exclaves is an invention of the 20th century, and is absurd.

[BanjaLuka]

What's wrong with it? I understand how one such as yourself might be offended at my little genocide joke, but I made good on the joke by replacing it with a serious proposal. I maintain that the entire area might be better-off with less artificial unity rather than more. It sounds like it would work better than anything you people have tried so far. From watching Serbs at the throats of Croats and Croats attacking Serbs and the Saracen Bosniaks in the middle, it seems to me that any attempt to get these three together would result in the same result again and again. Better to give them their space - and since they seem to be dispersed so widely in the area, instead of forcing one group or another to move (as the Serbs tried) or forcing them all to live together (as Bosnia is trying), why not just give individual regions autonomy and let them ally themselves with other regions as they see fit. The notion that there cannot be enclaves or exclaves is an invention of the 20th century, and is absurd.



What you write about is possible only in your fantasy virtual world , and in world of few 8-9 graders that are my students that really have no clue how the world works or in heads of frivolous housewives in Bosnia who think they have and know solutions to all political problems and issues when they meet at a hairdresser. You know nothing about political reality here in Bosnia and Balkans in general, its obvious to me from your writings, its very superficial. You reason in such way as if people here are herds of cattle or pieces on a chess board...There is even a diagnosis for that...I seriously find it tedious to even bother to debate about anything with you. I just don't have that time...

Your remarks about genocide do not insult me at all, you can keep writing about it as much as you want...:lightbul:

I won't take part in any discussion with you on this issue anymore...

[Monolith]

All national identities are fake, you Croats should know that and I can explain this if you want. ;)
Absolutely, go ahead.

From watching Serbs at the throats of Croats and Croats attacking Serbs and the Saracen Bosniaks in the middle, it seems to me that any attempt to get these three together would result in the same result again and again.
I assure you, the situation in RL is nowhere near as dramatic as it might appear on the Internet.

[Magister Eckhart]

Absolutely, go ahead.

I assure you, the situation in RL is nowhere near as dramatic as it might appear on the Internet.

The wars in that part of the world say otherwise, but I'll take your word for it.


What you write about is possible only in your fantasy virtual world , and in world of few 8-9 graders that are my students that really have no clue how the world works or in heads of frivolous housewives in Bosnia who think they have and know solutions to all political problems and issues when they meet at a hairdresser. You know nothing about political reality here in Bosnia and Balkans in general, its obvious to me from your writings, its very superficial. You reason in such way as if people here are herds of cattle or pieces on a chess board...There is even a diagnosis for that...I seriously find it tedious to even bother to debate about anything with you. I just don't have that time...

Your remarks about genocide do not insult me at all, you can keep writing about it as much as you want...:lightbul:

I won't take part in any discussion with you on this issue anymore...

It seems to me you have said very little about why the notion of city-states is nonsensical. City-states throughout history have functioned well and their economies tend to be superior to large nations. It seems to me that the rabid nationalism of the former Yugoslavs makes any sort of confederation inevitable, but better that it be an organic union rather than the artificial union thus far attempted.

However, rather than answer this, argued from history and from established political reality as well as political theory, you have simply repeated that it is nonsense. I have suggested it in good faith, but find confirmed that you seem to belong to a stubborn-minded and pugnacious people not worth any show of faith or serious concern.

Let Bosnia perish, if this is the likes of its people.

[Thundermark]

Saracen Bosniaks in the middle

LOL :D
Saracen, really? :D


I assure you, the situation in RL is nowhere near as dramatic as it might appear on the Internet.

Many people cant really understand this but they are in the same situation. They come to forums with political frustration but in real life they lead, what you would call, a normal life.


Absolutely, go ahead.
First of all, nationalities in the Balkans and in the biggest part of Europe got their current shape in the 19. century. It was the time of strong changes in economy, politics and the whole society. Serbian uprisings and Russian pan-Slavic politics in the same century started a process of national creation ("awakening") among south Slavs. Croatian nation emerged in areas that never before were connected with Croatian identity and ethnicity and also many people with documented and visible non-Croatian ethnicity became Croats. That is why you have today plenty Croatians with Hungarian, Italian, German etc. surnames. Modern ethnic space of Croats is not equal to that one before the 19. century. Croatian language is not same as before that century and that goes for alphabet, flag, coat of arms and , most important, national name which started to be used for much bigger group then before. Majority of Catholic Slavonians, Bosnians and more than half of Dalmatians did not belong to the group known as Croats. To make this simple as possible, it is not wrong to say that new set of Croatian "national" features firstly emerged among political elite in certain area of Croatia and then spread over much larger population.

[Thundermark]

Let Bosnia perish, if this is the likes of its people.

Europeans want to perish, let them do so. ;)

[Magister Eckhart]

LOL :D
Saracen, really? :D

It's easier to write out than "Mohammedan", and expresses the same reality.


Europeans want to perish, let them do so. ;)

I really do want to be fair to your people, you know. He's just making it very difficult.

[Thundermark]

I really do want to be fair to your people, you know. He's just making it very difficult.

I am just asking about double standards. Why this constant story of European preservation when it is obvious that Europeans don't care about pillars of Europe as an idea? I know the answer btw, just want to prove a point. Its the same with bosnia which is one of the oldest countries in Europe that is also alive today and its worth of saving. ;)

[Monolith]

First of all, nationalities in the Balkans and in the biggest part of Europe got their current shape in the 19. century. It was the time of strong changes in economy, politics and the whole society. Serbian uprisings and Russian pan-Slavic politics in the same century started a process of national creation ("awakening") among south Slavs.
It's very important to note that there's a big difference between creation and awakening. The former implies either an ex nihilo creation or a significant degree of artificiality, whereas the latter works under the assumption that there's a solid foundation for the emergence of a national identity. The 19th century romantic nationalism indeed had a solid foundation in Croatia, with an already established identity centered around the collective memory of medieval Croatian kingdom, its native dynasty ("Jer po smrti našeg posljednjeg kralja, sretne uspomene Zvonimira..."), its uninterrupted continuity in Austria-Hungary and constant warfare against the Ottoman invaders. As such, it included many different regional groups that were in some way connected to this tradition of statehood, while at the same time it excluded those who were deemed unrelated to it.


Croatian nation emerged in areas that never before were connected with Croatian identity and ethnicity...
Like where?

...and also many people with documented and visible non-Croatian ethnicity became Croats. That is why you have today plenty Croatians with Hungarian, Italian, German etc. surnames.
This happened virtually everywhere in Europe. Overwhelming majority of Croatian surnames is Slavic though.

As regards the surnames; my grandmother has a surname that derives from a German word. It denotes a trade or a function, like many other German, Italian, and Turkish-derived surnames in Croatia. They are nothing but loanwords in Croatian language.


Modern ethnic space of Croats is not equal to that one before the 19. century.
Since I have no idea which territory would you consider as "ethnic" Croatian in the 19th century, I really can't comment on that.

Croatian language is not same as before that century and that goes for alphabet, flag, coat of arms
What is Croatian language? And why should the CoA, alphabet etc. remain unchanged?

and, most important, national name which started to be used for much bigger group then before.

Majority of Catholic Slavonians, Bosnians and more than half of Dalmatians did not belong to the group known as Croats.
I don't know what to say about that, as I'm not familiar with the premises you base your theories on.

To make this simple as possible, it is not wrong to say that new set of Croatian "national" features firstly emerged among political elite in certain area of Croatia and then spread over much larger population.
The question remains, why would this much larger population accept an identity that is supposed to be foreign to them?

[Bugarash]

I support Bosnia to be like it is
Bulgaria doesnt have interest for serbia and croatia to enlarge their territory...
so better have a unstable country like Bosnia:)

[BanjaLuka]

I support Bosnia to be like it is
Bulgaria doesnt have interest for serbia and croatia to enlarge their territory...
so better have a unstable country like Bosnia:)

Bulgaria :confused: you mean the future Western province of Greater Turkey? :lightbul:

[Bugarash]

Bulgaria :confused: you mean the future Western province of Greater Turkey? :lightbul:

you are lucky Bulgaria and Greece are on the border with turkey...you can imagine how will it go if serbia or bosnia or croatia were on that gate:rolleyes:

and still turkey is on the way of taking Sandzak via Muftija Zukorlic:D

[BanjaLuka]

you are lucky Bulgaria and Greece are on the border with turkey...you can imagine how will it go if serbia or bosnia or croatia were on that gate:rolleyes:

and still turkey is on the way of taking Sandzak via Muftija Zukorlic:D

Turks are famous for loving to sodomize plump tatar looking man, so many of them in Bulgaria I hear, I guess once Turks annex your country there will be some serious orgies, you better stock up with good lubes :D:lightbul:



http://paper.standartnews.com/images/articles/orig_2779_en.jpg

I see some Bulgarians are already prepared to take on greasy Turkish dicks as seen in the picture :lightbul:

Bulgaria in not so distant future :eek::D

P1VfT7QT_W8

[Bugarash]

Turks are famous for loving to sodomize plump tatar looking man, so many of them in Bulgaria I hear, I guess once Turks annex your country there will be some serious orgies, you better stock up with good lubes :D:lightbul:

http://paper.standartnews.com/images/articles/orig_2779_en.jpg

I see some Bulgarians are already prepared to take on greasy Turkish dicks as seen in the picture :lightbul:

so many?
8% from which 1/3 are gypsies who think they are turks:D
our relations with turkey are the good,our army isint a easy bite,unlike some other ''armies'' in the region:D
and Bulgaria is a too much important key to several great powers so it can be touched by turkey;)

I would pay attention to this
SULTAN ERDOGAN RETURNS TO YENI PAZAR:D

http://b92s.net/pics/gallery/2010/07/10959455094c3c211798830711707447.jpg

http://www.predsednik.rs/mwc/pic/30/20100712154451/t.-dom-kulture-v.jpg

http://www.sandzaknews.com/slike/kolumna-27.jpg


olso this;)


Turci tražili skidanje zastave RS

Predsedavajući Predsedništva BiH Nebojša Radmanović otkazao sastanak s ministrom inostranih poslova Turske, jer je turska delegacija tražila skidanje zastave RS

[BanjaLuka]

so many?
8% from which 1/3 are gypsies who think they are turks:D
our relations with turkey are the good,our army isint a easy bite,unlike some other ''armies'' in the region:D
and Bulgaria is a too much important key to several great powers so it can be touched by turkey;)

I would pay attention to this
SULTAN ERDOGAN RETURNS TO YENI PAZAR:D

http://b92s.net/pics/gallery/2010/07/10959455094c3c211798830711707447.jpg

http://www.predsednik.rs/mwc/pic/30/20100712154451/t.-dom-kulture-v.jpg

http://www.sandzaknews.com/slike/kolumna-27.jpg


olso this;)

lol you do know that Turkey has invested over 5 billion USD in Serbia :D

Its one of most important partners of Serbia in terms of economy. It has been one of most important partners even during Milosevic rule. Compared to Bulgaria Serbia has a long tradition of dealing and making deals with Turks and Turkey for its own benefit. Tradition from beginning of 19th century. Nothing that worries anyone here except few ignorant fools.

Bosnia on the other hand has significant partners in Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Turkey & Italy...

As far as RS flag is concerned that you mentioned in the second part, our politicians from RS are a bit cheeky so they remove BiH flag whenever they can and plant only RS flag there, something that foreign diplomats have become aware lately :D It does not affect Republika Srpska in any sense that you try to input but is used for promotion of ruling RS political party...


You should be really concerned more with those greasy swarthy Turkish dicks that will sodomize you. Look at the bright side of that, you won't have problems with constipation ever again :lightbul::eek:

Regarding armies you are really clueless...the number of active troops has nothing to do with the armament that all former Yugoslav republics have in storage places.. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH ALL THAT MILITARY SHIT and we also produce large amounts of it and have limits to how much we can export set up by NATO and USA. Once the limits are removed, military industry will be one of the most important, vital parts of economy that will fill the national budget. :D

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Bulgaria/Flag-Pins-Bulgaria-Turkey.jpg

There is reason why you have the green color in your flag, future of Bulgaria as Bulgaristan was predicted by its national flag long time ago :D

red in your flag presents Turkey conquering you...
green in your flag presents Bulgarians converting to Islam...
White in your flag presents Bugarians waving white flag of surrender and joy of anal sex while being sodomized by greasy swarthy Turkish dicks...

[Thundermark]

It's very important to note that there's a big difference between creation and awakening

I know this. Creation is here called awakening to mask the unpleasant truth.


Like where?

Most of Bosnia, Slavonia , Dalmatia, Istria and possibly the area around Zagreb.


This happened virtually everywhere in Europe

Sure, it happened everywhere. I did not say that situation related to Croatia is different then in other countries. Also, dont think that I accuse Croatian intelligentsia because of the mentioned process, if anyone is to be blame then that would be Ottoman empire and their millet system which created three ethno-religious groups in Bosnian eyalet.


Since I have no idea which territory would you consider as "ethnic" Croatian in the 19th century, I really can't comment on that.

Northwestern part of modern Bosnia , Croatia under Hungary and some minor parts of Dalmatia and Slavonia.


I don't know what to say about that, as I'm not familiar with the premises you base your theories on.

I will not talk further about Dalmatia and Slavonia but I will just repeat a fact about the Bosnian case. Until the 19. century Croatian name did not exist as an ethnic mark for Catholics in Bosnia proper ( Sava - Neretva - Drina - Vrbas).


The question remains, why would this much larger population accept an identity that is supposed to be foreign to them?

Catholicism was their main identity.

[Bugarash]

lol you do know that Turkey has invested over 5 billion USD in Serbia :D

Its one of most important partners of Serbia in terms of economy. It has been one of most important partners even during Milosevic rule. Compared to Bulgaria Serbia has a long tradition of dealing and making deals with Turks and Turkey for its own benefit. Tradition from beginning of 19th century. Nothing that worries anyone here except few ignorant fools.

Bosnia on the other hand has significant partners in Germany, Austria, Slovenia, Turkey & Italy...

As far as RS flag is concerned that you mentioned in the second part, our politicians from RS are a bit cheeky so they remove BiH flag whenever they can and plant only RS flag there, something that foreign diplomats have become aware lately :D It does not affect Republika Srpska in any sense that you try to input but is used for promotion of ruling RS political party...


You should be really concerned more with those greasy swarthy Turkish dicks that will sodomize you. Look at the bright side of that, you won't have problems with constipation ever again :lightbul::eek:

Regarding armies you are really clueless...the number of active troops has nothing to do with the armament that all former Yugoslav republics have in storage places.. WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH ALL THAT MILITARY SHIT and we also produce large amounts of it and have limits to how much we can export set up by NATO and USA. Once the limits are removed, military industry will be one of the most important, vital parts of economy that will fill the national budget. :D



who gives a shit about Bosnia anyway?
nonfunctional ''state'' that looks more like a international protectorate ,with no future,kept alive by the international community,separated in entities,self-governing administrative units,a couple of official and nonofficial capital cities...I mean wtf

...Turkey has its interests in Bosnia-but for making it a fully Bosniak state...

Where did you came up with the 5 billion story?
have a source to back up that claim?
and I wouldnt be to happy for the turkish investments:)


Leading investor nations in Serbia:

Austria ($2.68bn)
Greece ($1.62bn)
Norway ($1.55bn)
Germany ($1.30bn)
Italy ($0.95bn)

yeah,partners,thats why Turkey took part in the 1999 bombing:rolleyes:
when the turkish NATO/KFOR corps was about to enter Kosovo,they didint went in with the others,they waited to go in at the date when they lost Kosovo,and their base in Kosovo today is called Sultan Murad:D

doesnt matter,Turkey with that officialy showed its probosniak and antiserb position;)

how old are you?:)
are you serious about the ''storage places''?:D
no ex-yu state has nothing iven close to a air force...all of them together have 400 tanks-copy paste version of the soviet T-70/80-made in yugoslavia...
if all of the ex-yu states went in war with Bulgaria,that would turn out to be a excursion for the Bulgarian army:D

military production???
exept for serbia,who else produces military equipment?
Bosnia??:D
and 90% of the serbian products go to African countries:D

looks to me like you are still living in the 1970's and talking about Yugoslavia and not about the 7 jokes that came out of it:)

[Thundermark]

Not that I am unfriendly towards Bulgaria but former Yugoslavs could take you. :D

[Saruman]

how old are you?:)
are you serious about the ''storage places''?:D
no ex-yu state has nothing iven close to a air force...all of them together have 400 tanks-copy paste version of the soviet T-70/80-made in yugoslavia...
if all of the ex-yu states went in war with Bulgaria,that would turn out to be a excursion for the Bulgarian army:D

military production???
exept for serbia,who else produces military equipment?
Bosnia??:D
and 90% of the serbian products go to African countries:D

looks to me like you are still living in the 1970's and talking about Yugoslavia and not about the 7 jokes that came out of it:)

Modern Bolgar army is clearly inferior to Serbian army.
Serbia has 212 M-84 tanks overall better than Bolgar 160 T-72's, and they are getting upgraded for T-90 standard. Sure you have some extra scrap metal in reserve. Serbian army has far more IFV's, 540 M-80's that are of better quality than just 70 Bulgarian IFV's.
Artillery of Bulgaria is inferior overall. Not to speak of training and level of professionalism, Serbian army is better equipped and organized than yours. So Serbia would defeat Bulgaria alone, let alone all of ex-Yu.

The only excursion that is going to be in regard to Bulgaria is the excursion of Turkish Army into your country that might actually happen in the near future. In such case you would capitulate in few days at best, as in comparison with Turkish military, your army is pathetic. You are the weak belly of Europe.

[BanjaLuka]

Not that I am unfriendly towards Bulgaria but former Yugoslavs could take you. :D

Only Former Macedonia with its TO armaments and JNA troops could have taken on them with success, Bulgaria was and still is just a meat-shield country. :D They have airforce :D:lightbul: It would be gone with the wind within first 48 hours of engagement with Turkey.

[Saruman]

Only Former Macedonia with its TO armaments and JNA troops could have taken on them with success, Bulgaria was and still is just a meat-shield country. :D They have airforce :D:lightbul: It would be gone with the wind within first 48 hours of engagement with Turkey.

Bulgaria inherited lot of weapons from ex-USSR, so that was an advantage for them being part of Warsaw pact. But they neglected their army alot and are planning further reductions. They do have an Airforce whose power are 14 Mig-29's, Serbia had as much prior to 1999 war, and indeed those planes wouldn't help alot against Turks. They have solid air defense though, that's the strongest aspect of their military, but they just neglected the army and thought the Soviet scrap will last forever.

[Bugarash]

Modern Bolgar army is clearly inferior to Serbian army.
Serbia has 212 M-84 tanks overall better than Bolgar 160 T-72's, and they are getting upgraded for T-90 standard. Sure you have some extra scrap metal in reserve. Serbian army has far more IFV's, 540 M-80's that are of better quality than just 70 Bulgarian IFV's.
Artillery of Bulgaria is inferior overall. Not to speak of training and level of professionalism, Serbian army is better equipped and organized than yours. So Serbia would defeat Bulgaria alone, let alone all of ex-Yu.

The only excursion that is going to be in regard to Bulgaria is the excursion of Turkish Army into your country that might actually happen in the near future. In such case you would capitulate in few days at best, as in comparison with Turkish military, your army is pathetic. You are the weak belly of Europe.




:D
another joker
first of all
Bulgaria in this region is the hunter
together with Albania,Hungary and in some level Croatia
while serbia is the hunted:)

have you iven looked what serbia and what Bulgaria have of artillery piaces?:rolleyes:
or maybe from air force?
serbian air force-soko orao...the end:D

Bulgaria has about 170 active T-72 and 500 stored T-72 tanks-all upgraded!
comparing a NATO standard army with the current serbian army is...is...well its dumb!

Turkey in that look,is our NATO allie;)
I agree that turkey has built up a strong military,but they must have a strong military in order to meet the threats of 20 million kurds,kurdish rebel forces,Greece and Armenia...
for the same reasons,the greeks invest alot in their military...
Turkey vs Bulgaria
is the same if you try to compare Bulgaria vs ex-yu

[Saruman]

:D
have you iven looked what serbia and what Bulgaria have of artillery piaces?:rolleyes:

Yes, you have some dozens of Gvozika's in service as well as Grad MLRS in service. Some short range ballistic missiles too. You have lot of Gvozdika's in storage yes, as well as additional Grad's. But those are deteriorating.
Besides Serbia can build new NORA's if necessary.
Your country has no it's own capacity itself, just inherited USSR weapons.



or maybe from air force?

Clearly Bulgarian air force is stronger but in a hypothetical conflict air force wouldn't matter much at all, as both countries have sufficient air defense to shoot down each others aircraft.



serbian air force-soko orao...the end:D
Well at least Yugoslavs had capacity to build their own planes and weaponry, something your nation was never able to do. Orao wasn't a bad plane.




Bulgaria has about 170 active T-72 and 500 stored T-72 tanks-all upgraded!
comparing a NATO standard army with the current serbian army is...is...well its dumb!

Upgraded to what standard you ignorant idiot. You don't have 170 but 160 tanks and you don't have 500 tanks in reserve but 270 and those in reserve are not upgraded. It doesn't matter basic T-72M1/M was an inferior Soviet export variant, Bulgarian modernization added just more armor and thermovision. Even basic M-84 has better fire control system, and M84AS is far superior to Bulgarian variants.
zS--_qUmUfg

You have in storage 270 of inferior variants.




Turkey in that look,is our NATO allie;)
I agree that turkey has built up a strong military,but they must have a strong military in order to meet the threats of 20 million kurds,kurdish rebel forces,Greece and Armenia...
for the same reasons,the greeks invest alot in their military...
Turkey vs Bulgaria
is the same if you try to compare Bulgaria vs ex-yu

To neo-Ottomans you're the enemy. FYROM-ans have been sticking themselves under Turkish butt recently for some verbal support against Greeks, but Turks will still support Albanian takeover in FYROM.
And Turkey don't have just strong military in a decade Turkish army will be much stronger than Greek Army.

[BanjaLuka]

military production???
exept for serbia,who else produces military equipment?
Bosnia??:D
and 90% of the serbian products go to African countries:D

looks to me like you are still living in the 1970's and talking about Yugoslavia and not about the 7 jokes that came out of it:)[/QUOT



Time for payback is near :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_expulsion_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria

They are about to come back and claim their vengeance :D
They have not forgotten :eek:

5 + Bil USD is planned investment of Turkey in Serbia already agreed and signed in Belgrade it was all over the media.... That is like 6-7 x more than Turkey invested in Bulgaria. Combined investment of Turkey in Romania and Bulgaria was 1.5bil... Start a thread about it and ask people...:wink

Turks are opportunists they want to get in top 10 world economies and will act and do things to achieve it without being scrupulous about it...

If Serbs know something then it is how to deal with Turks, you should find data about how much has been exported from Serbia to Turkey and from Turkey in Serbia in the past 20 years. Now its time for Turkey with blessings of the West to invest money in Serbia for the benefit of Serbia and Serbs. As I already mentioned your politicians grabbed Turkish investment money as well and had their been more money they would have seized the opportunity without hesitation ...

I counted on your ignorance, most of Military Industry for strategic reasons was stationed in Bosnia& Herzegovina in former Yugoslavia. Currently within a year if Allowed Bosnia would be able as a joint venture of both entities & produce M84 tank and even modernized version if cooperated with Serbia (there is already cooperation among Serbian Army and OSBIH, OSBIH officers get training and finish academies in Serbia and its not limited to Bosnian Serbs only), the same goes for trucks, armored vehicles etc...

Bosnian defense industry is supervised & controlled by USA, and its strategic interest of NATO and USA to maintain it, otherwise the companies would have been liquidated long time ago but there have been foreign (US -NATO) incentives to keep them going and working and there are limits set to how much can be exported, if the limits were removed the gross yearly income would be over 600 mil. USD. US Department of Defense buys most of Bosnian ammo, shells, explosives, and as per order spare parts production...

400 tanks thing...
There are tanks in service & then those in reserve, only in Bosnia 250 in total and we really don't need that shit but hey if it sits in storage places and takes some space and does no harm then so be it.

Bosnia really does not need army with Serbia and Croatia at its borders its pointless and any future conflict would be to serious determent of Bosniaks and they know it as Alija Izetbegovic said before he died freely paraphrasing him "any new war in Bosnia would mean the end of Bosniak people, the peace achieved has to be maintained at all costs". :D Bosnia just needs some peacekeeping professional regiment total size of three battalions, something that we could sent to support NATO or UN in peacekeeping.


Buddy look at the sport and compare it how ex-Yu republics do in sport and look at your pathetic Bulgarian results are :D In war it would be pretty much the same you would get some serious ass-whooping, we would prepare you, warm you up, for your inevitable fate in the hands Turkish sodomizers .:eek::D

For you pleasure:
Zrak (Optics)
Igman (small arms ammunition)

'IGMAN' d.d. company was established on 6th March 1950.

It was one of the biggest producers of small arms ammunition from cal. 5,56 mm till cal. 12,7 mm in Europe.

'IGMAN' produces all types of ammunition - eastern and western - and with various types of bullets (ball, tracer, armour-piercing, armour-piercing incendiary, armour-piercing incendiary-tracer and other combinations of all types).

'IGMAN' has exported its products in more than 60 countries on all continents.

General Manager: Mr. Đahid Muratbegović
Executive Director for Production: Mr. Šerif Ćorić
Executive Director for Quality Assurance: Mr. Miroslav Šain
Executive Director for Marketing, Finance, and Legal Affairs: Mr. Emir Hadžizukić


ORAO A.D. (Turbojet engines and parts)

"Orаo" JSC provides overhauling services for airplane and turbo jet engines. It also manufactures parts and assemblies for turbojet engines. The company was founded in 1944 and is based in Bijeljinа, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Unis Promex (ARMAMENT, AMMUNITION and MILITARY EQUIPMENT)
Knock yourself out:
http://www.unis-promex.ba/products.html

BNT Travnik (small arms ammunition)
For your pleasure:
http://www.bnt-tmh.com.ba/vojni_program.htm

GINEX Gorazde (small arms parts of ammunition)
http://www.ginex.com.ba/public_html/Product.htm


BINAS (small arms ammunition)

Binas d.d. Bugojno manufactures and markets ammunition and artillery. The company offers ammunitions and rockets, mine explosive products, grenades, gun primers and cartridges, and fuses for artillery and mortar shells. Binas d.d. Bugojno was formerly known as Slavko Rodic. The company is based in Bugojno, Bosnia-Herzegovina.

FSV - FABRIKA SPECIJALNIH VOZILA A.D (Spare parts for all types of combat vehicles and tank M-84)

Banjaluka Cajavec Company

Development, production,
maintenance of: fire control
system, radio-transceivers, day-
night sights, chemical-radio
detectors, mine detectors,
encription devices, electro-
mechanical parts and system,
rocket electronics, preximity
fuses
, anti-aircraft and anti tank weapons, electronics
and automated guidance systems for complex rocket systems,
tank parts and tools for tank maintenance, gearbox systems
for tanks and armored vehicles

FMSN PALE (production of tank engines)
http://www.fmsn.info/index_en.html

TRZH Hadzici

Development, production and
overhaul of armaments and
military equipment

[Monolith]

all of them together have 400 tanks-copy paste version of the soviet T-70/80-made in yugoslavia...
I beg to differ.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15913&stc=1&d=1317547736
bang bang ;)


military production???
exept for serbia,who else produces military equipment?

Croatia.

[Bugarash]

Time for payback is near :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_expulsion_of_Turks_from_Bulgaria

They are about to come back and claim their vengeance :D
They have not forgotten :eek:

5 + Bil USD is planned investment of Turkey in Serbia already agreed and signed in Belgrade it was all over the media.... That is like 6-7 x more than Turkey invested in Bulgaria. Combined investment of Turkey in Romania and Bulgaria was 1.5bil... Start a thread about it and ask people...:wink

Turks are opportunists they want to get in top 10 world economies and will act and do things to achieve it without being scrupulous about it...

If Serbs know something then it is how to deal with Turks, you should find data about how much has been exported from Serbia to Turkey and from Turkey in Serbia in the past 20 years. Now its time for Turkey with blessings of the West to invest money in Serbia for the benefit of Serbia and Serbs. As I already mentioned your politicians grabbed Turkish investment money as well and had their been more money they would have seized the opportunity without hesitation ...

Buddy look at the sport and compare it how ex-Yu republics do in sport and look at your pathetic Bulgarian results are In war it would be pretty much the same you would get some serious ass-whooping, we would prepare you, warm you up, for your inevitable fate in the hands Turkish sodomizers .


ex-yugo's hate eachother so much,that they would start a war between eachother,the job would be finished iven before the Bulgarian army comes:)

the ''revival process'' showed what Bulgaria could do if she gets mad:D
and we got away with it;)

while turks didint get away with theirs


Bulgarian Parliament Pushes for 'Thracian Compensation' Claims from Turkey

Bulgaria's Parliament has urged the Cabinet to speed up work in a joint Bulgarian-Turkish commission for settling the claims for compensations from Turkey for Bulgarians who fled Eastern Thrace (European Turkey) amidst repressions in the 1910s and 1920s

Organizations of the descendants of Thracian Bulgarians are claiming that the Turkish state owes them as much as USD 10 B for real estate properties their ancestors left behind in today's European Turkey - and that these claims have been recognized with the Treaty of Friendship between Bulgaria and Turkey signed in the Turkish capital Ankara (also known as Angora at the time) on October 18, 1925 (the so called Angora Treaty).

All of the 125 MPs present in the Parliament Friday (out of a total of 240) voted in favor of the motion to accelerate the work on the compensation demands from Turkey, which was initiated by the nationalist party Ataka.

The draft proposal was initially discussed on Wednesday but Bulgarian Foreign Minister Nikolay Mladenov called upon the MPs to make its text as clear as possible so as to avoid stirring up controversies in the relations between Bulgaria and Turkey.

At the same time, he believes that a clear-cut text of the proposal would actually help speed up the talks with Turkey in the bilateral commission. Thus, the proposal was rewritten in the sense that it is now calling for accelerating the work of the commission.

The adopted proposal assigns to the Cabinet to collect all possible information about the Bulgarian claims - referring to real estate of Bulgarian refugees from Turkey but also to Bulgarian cultural monuments in Turkey, and to properties that used to belong to the Bulgarian Exarchate, i.e. the independent Bulgarian church set up in the Ottoman Turkish Empire in 1870 - and to draft a financial analysis of the compensation demands, including the accrued interest.

Some 250,000 Bulgarians fled their homes in Eastern Thrace after the Second Balkan War in 1913, when Turkey, back then still the Ottoman Empire, seized the opportunity to reclaim some of the territories the Ottoman Empire had lost in 1912-1913 to the Balkan Allies in the First Balkan War.

There are around 800,000 descendants of the refugees from 1913.

The compensations issue has been raised especially by Bulgaria's Diaspora Minister Bozhidar Dimitrov. In December 2009, Dimitrov even suggested Bulgaria should veto Turkey's EU accession unless the compensations issue was not settled - which led Prime Minister Borisov to scold him publicly and to deny any such moves.

During his visit to Bulgaria in October 2010, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan demonstrated good will on the issue.

"Wherever the claims are legally founded, we are going to satisfy them," Erdogan said in Sofia Monday. In turn, Bulgarian Prime Minister Boyko Borisov said he had many times urged all Bulgarian citizens with claims on properties their ancestors left behind in Turkey to provide all documents available to the Bulgarian state so that diplomatic action can follow up; however, no such documents have been turned in to date.

The major grounds of the Bulgarian Thracian compensation claims for Turkey is the Angora Treaty of 1925, whose full text is available in English HERE (Derived from the website of the Hungarian Institute in Munich)

never heard of such deal...you are making things up;)
but if there was a deal like that,that would be the end for serbia...Turkey investing 5 billion in a economy like the serbian one,that means turkey will control you...you are happy for about it?:D


in sports eh?
tell me what country from ex-yu has something you can call ''success in sports'' exept croatia and serbia?
it is pathetic that you have to unite 7 countries in order to be someone,but

Bulgaria has about 3 times more olimpic medals than former Yugoslavia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table
Bulgarian male and female volleyball teams are among the top in the world!
Bulgaria almost went in the finals on the 1994 world cup if it wasnt for the judge-so we finished 4 th!
Bulgarian holds the world women high jump record-Stefka Kostandinova
Hristo Stoichkov,Dimitar Berbatov-world class players-something that no ex-yu country or former yugoslavia has ever had
Bulgarian national basketball team-has a silver and bronze medal on eurobasket
dont iven want to talk about other sports like gymnastics,chess,swiming...because we are on the top:)

ahahaha
you call that military production?
wake up,and cut the baby stories...talk about existing things not about ''we use to'',''there are chances that we might''...

small arms?
iven Macedonia produced small arms till about 5 years ago...
and 95% of your ''military production'' is dead now !
and im not sure we can iven use the word ''military production'' in whatever is connected with military...and by the things you post,iven if someone starts to produce zastava postol bullets at home,you will call it a ''military production''.

[Bugarash]

I beg to differ.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15913&stc=1&d=1317547736
bang bang ;)

Croatia.

Croatia is the only country,whos entire military can be shown in one photo:D

[Monolith]

Croatia is the only country,whos entire military can be shown in one photo:D
lol man, I think you're confusing us for Slovenia. :D

[Bugarash]

Yes, you have some dozens of Gvozika's in service as well as Grad MLRS in service. Some short range ballistic missiles too. You have lot of Gvozdika's in storage yes, as well as additional Grad's. But those are deteriorating.
Besides Serbia can build new NORA's if necessary.
Your country has no it's own capacity itself, just inherited USSR weapons.
Well at least Yugoslavs had capacity to build their own planes and weaponry, something your nation was never able to do. Orao wasn't a bad plane.



son,you werent iven born when Bulgaria had a military production:rolleyes:

YyI-8AjdarM




Clearly Bulgarian air force is stronger but in a hypothetical conflict air force wouldn't matter much at all, as both countries have sufficient air defense to shoot down each others aircraft.

again trying to compare your ''air deffense'' with ours
everything what you had went with to the NATO F-16's
cant you see,you cant compare Bulgaria with serbia in any way,especialy not after the wars serbia went through...Bulgaria back in the days held a military that was planned to go agains NATO members Greece and Turkey...



To neo-Ottomans you're the enemy. FYROM-ans have been sticking themselves under Turkish butt recently for some verbal support against Greeks, but Turks will still support Albanian takeover in FYROM.
And Turkey don't have just strong military in a decade Turkish army will be much stronger than Greek Army.

of course we are the enemies,we are the only real force together with Greece that can stand on their way in the entire region...
the turks are inferior soldiers...in a decade the kurds will be much more turkey too:D

and Bulgaria has NATO to back her
and the statue of the Russian Emperor isint standing in central Sofia for nothing;)

http://i43.tinypic.com/2usg4s8.jpg

[BanjaLuka]

small arms?
iven Macedonia produced small arms till about 5 years ago...
and 95% of your ''military production'' is dead now !
and im not sure we can iven use the word ''military production'' in whatever is connected with military...and by the things you post,iven if someone starts to produce zastava postol bullets at home,you will call it a ''military production''.

http://www.idef11.com/

http://www.unisgroup.ba/

I really don't have time to educate you ignorant Tatar-Gypsy :D

But you are clueless....you know your country perhaps well but you have no clue about what is going on in other countries under your nose...

Gross income of Bosnian Defense Industry depending on orders and limitation ( since all is supervised by USA and NATO for possible black market sales) is anywhere between 50-80 mil. USD per year.

use google translate:
http://www.capital.ba/dozvoljen-izvoz-oruzja-iz-bih/

If proper security conditions are met as they are being met, already this year as seen from the article, combined sales could reach projected 500-600 mil USD per year, which is highest projected estimation, realistic is range in range of 400 mil. USD which can be easily sustained as steady income.

This is the group that is buying shares and wants to invest further already reached agreements:
http://www.ruag.com/Group/Group_Home

[Bugarash]

http://www.idef11.com/

http://www.unisgroup.ba/

I really don't have time to educate you ignorant Tatar-Gypsy :D

But you are clueless....you know your country perhaps well but you have no clue about what is going on in other countries under your nose...

Gross income of Bosnian Defense Industry depending on orders and limitation ( since all is supervised by USA and NATO for possible black market sales) is anywhere between 50-80 mil. USD per year.

use google translate:
http://www.capital.ba/dozvoljen-izvoz-oruzja-iz-bih/

If proper security conditions are met as they are being met, already this year as seen from the article, combined sales could reach projected 500-600 mil USD per year, which is highest projected estimation, realistic is range in range of 400 mil. USD which can be easily sustained as steady income.

This is the group that is buying shares and wants to invest further already reached agreements:
http://www.ruag.com/Group/Group_Home

Bosnia
the place where a bunch of vlach nomads think they are serb gypsies and where turkoslavs think they are some kind of a bosnian nation...

the first 2 words explain everything:D

could...projected
and lets say it is true
you have a small arms production?
whats your point?
is that something big,important,scary?:D
you are still a worthless devided F***** up ''country''
if it wasnt for the west,it would be a one mans job to start another civil war:)

[Saruman]

Bosnia
the place where a bunch of vlach nomads think they are serb gypsies and where turkoslavs think they are some kind of a bosnian nation...

the first 2 words explain everything:D

and lets say it is true
you have a small arms production?
whats your point?
is that something big,important,scary?:D
you are still a worthless devided F***** up ''country''
if it wasnt for the west,it would be a one mans job to start another civil war:)

Get lost. For any Turkogypsy-looking West South Slav I'd give youseveral such Bulgarians easily.
Now relax as you're delusional FYROManian, as I don't see such Bulgarians such as yourself often. You invent some non-existent conflicts that have little to no chance of taking place, I have no time for fantasies as so many have them. The only conflict that may take place in the area for the next 15-20 years is the conflict between muslims and christians and only if Turkey continues on Neo-Ottoman path and tries to pursue their interests aggressively. So all is very clear. Anything else is just empty talk and waste of time, that loser fantasists post all time time at sites such as Topix etc. and I have no time to discuss that.

I said that Serbian Army is slightly more potent than Bulgarian Army at the moment and that is correct.

[Caeruleus]

Bosnia
the place where a bunch of vlach nomads think they are serb gypsies and where turkoslavs think they are some kind of a bosnian nation

Do you even know what a vlach is stupid ? :) since when serbs are vlachs ? You of all people should know that bulgarians are the most non-slavic nation of all slavic nations (talking about turkoslavs), you are the descendant of Khan (KHAN, LOL) Kubrat. Learn some history Asparuh :D

[Thundermark]

Bosnia
the place where a bunch of vlach nomads think they are serb gypsies and where turkoslavs think they are some kind of a bosnian nation...

LOL :D

The funny thing is that is partly true. :D
On the other hand, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". ;)

[Saruman]

LOL :D

The funny thing is that is partly true. :D
On the other hand, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". ;)

Well not much wrong with herder Vlachs(or romanized "Illyrian") in the first place.

mountain herder Vlach = Dinarid Übermensch

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2606/dinaridmne.jpg

[hajduk]

oh please close this thread. this guy takes it to a pathological level.





No problem finding more extreme guys at this site
http://forum.srpskinacionalisti.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23692

[BanjaLuka]

Bosnia
the place where a bunch of vlach nomads think they are serb gypsies and where turkoslavs think they are some kind of a bosnian nation...

the first 2 words explain everything:D

and lets say it is true
you have a small arms production?
whats your point?
is that something big,important,scary?:D
you are still a worthless devided F***** up ''country''
if it wasnt for the west,it would be a one mans job to start another civil war:)


Small arms :D
You did not check the links at all, Tatar-Gypsy ignorance again :p:D

The point is that we have growing and sustaining Military Industry that you have tried to negate, as it is we get 50-80 mil. USD as gross income from that industry each year which is just a little bit of global yearly GDP that is 17 billion USD with 5% steady growth every year. And we are country with only 3.8 million people here...

If it wasn't for the West :D Nothing could prevent people here NOW if they wanted to start a new war, but if you came here and started speaking about it to people you'd either get beaten up or would be sent to a psychiatric ward for observation. Where is that West that you talk about here? 2000 EUFOR soldiers could prevent it if it was to happen? In terms of security and stability Bosnia is waaay better than Bulgaria, we got only 40.000 Gypsies here and their number is declining :D

As I said before Bosnia does not need Army, and after all that we had here in the past we've learned to love and respect peace. With Serbia on the East and Croatia on the West Bosnia strongly depends on approval and sustained support of both those countries, its those two countries that are anchor of Bosnian stability and peace, and with regard to economy Bosnia finds most important partners in those two countries.

To start another civil war in Bosnia would take Turkey to invade and conquer Bulgaria and to start orgies with fat Bulgarian Tatar-Gypsies in such case civil war in Bosnia would be imminent if Bosniaks became irrationally lured or enticed by such Turkish conquests but I am sure that they will never fall for that and that they will respect words of Alija Izetbegovic to maintain the Dayton peace at all costs, hence the Bosnia will keep prospering in peace along with Serbia and Croatia while Bulgaristan will be place where we will export condoms, lubes, viagra and dildos for horny Turkish sodomizers :lightbul::D Look at the bright side again, Bulgaristan will be the least constipated country in the world! :lightbul:

[hajduk]

At least we're doing something against the gypsy problem here. The last days are very encouraging, and the young people don't want to live in a gypsy country.
However no need to insult whole nation because of one guys behavior,dumbass

[Saruman]

No problem finding more extreme guys at this site
http://forum.srpskinacionalisti.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23692


Indeed on that site people are quite extreme! In support of gypsysation of Bulgaria even.

[hajduk]

Indeed on that site people are quite extreme! In support of gypsysation of Bulgaria even.

Well, I think these internet wars are restricted to extreme far rights.
Ive been to Serbia and people were quite well with me, never seen or heard serbians beaten or terroriziated here in Bulgaria either

[morski]

I agree with ranger. We should stop feeding the troll. Bugarash is clearly not here to make new contacts and have constructive discussions. He seems to be waging some kind of holy war wich exist in his head mainly.

[Bugarash]

Small arms :D
You did not check the links at all, Tatar-Gypsy ignorance again :p:D

The point is that we have growing and sustaining Military Industry that you have tried to negate, as it is we get 50-80 mil. USD as gross income from that industry each year which is just a little bit of global yearly GDP that is 17 billion USD with 5% steady growth every year. And we are country with only 3.8 million people here...

If it wasn't for the West :D Nothing could prevent people here NOW if they wanted to start a new war, but if you came here and started speaking about it to people you'd either get beaten up or would be sent to a psychiatric ward for observation. Where is that West that you talk about here? 2000 EUFOR soldiers could prevent it if it was to happen? In terms of security and stability Bosnia is waaay better than Bulgaria, we got only 40.000 Gypsies here and their number is declining :D

As I said before Bosnia does not need Army, and after all that we had here in the past we've learned to love and respect peace. With Serbia on the East and Croatia on the West Bosnia strongly depends on approval and sustained support of both those countries, its those two countries that are anchor of Bosnian stability and peace, and with regard to economy Bosnia finds most important partners in those two countries.

To start another civil war in Bosnia would take Turkey to invade and conquer Bulgaria and to start orgies with fat Bulgarian Tatar-Gypsies in such case civil war in Bosnia would be imminent if Bosniaks became irrationally lured or enticed by such Turkish conquests but I am sure that they will never fall for that and that they will respect words of Alija Izetbegovic to maintain the Dayton peace at all costs, hence the Bosnia will keep prospering in peace along with Serbia and Croatia while Bulgaristan will be place where we will export condoms, lubes, viagra and dildos for horny Turkish sodomizers :lightbul::D Look at the bright side again, Bulgaristan will be the least constipated country in the world! :lightbul:

wake up gypsy
:Dit is iven funny to me that we iven discuss about is Bosnia something or is it nothing...everyone knows its a piace of shit...you know it,just dont want to admit it and be humilated in this forum:)

Croatia will prosper-but whats the use when it will never be a factor in anything,whats the use in having a prosperous country like Slovenia or Louxembourg,when it is enough just for the city of Sofia to take a piss and they will drown:)
same with Croatia...

Bosnia will remain poor,and kept alive by the inernational community-but iven that isint forever:)
serbia-hahaha
in 20 years,the living space of the serbs decreased by half:D
thats a country for which you cant never say how F***** up it is,because everyday they sink more and more:D

whatever you say about Bulgaria,you still know deep inside of you,where is your place...
you are too much small,poor and Insignificant to compare with a regional superpower such as Bulgaria...Bulgaria was at least a regional power for the last 1400 years-not counting the ottoman occupation-but iven under the ottomans we were the leading ethnic group in the empire!

while Bosnia started existing since...15 years ago:D

[The Journeyman]

I support Bosnia to be like it is
Bulgaria doesnt have interest for serbia and croatia to enlarge their territory...
so better have a unstable country like Bosnia:)

That is such a Libre thing to say.

[BanjaLuka]

wake up gypsy
:Dit is iven funny to me that we iven discuss about is Bosnia something or is it nothing...everyone knows its a piace of shit...you know it,just dont want to admit it and be humilated in this forum:)

Croatia will prosper-but whats the use when it will never be a factor in anything,whats the use in having a prosperous country like Slovenia or Louxembourg,when it is enough just for the city of Sofia to take a piss and they will drown:)
same with Croatia...

Bosnia will remain poor,and kept alive by the inernational community-but iven that isint forever:)
serbia-hahaha
in 20 years,the living space of the serbs decreased by half:D
thats a country for which you cant never say how F***** up it is,because everyday they sink more and more:D

whatever you say about Bulgaria,you still know deep inside of you,where is your place...
you are too much small,poor and Insignificant to compare with a regional superpower such as Bulgaria...Bulgaria was at least a regional power for the last 1400 years-not counting the ottoman occupation-but iven under the ottomans we were the leading ethnic group in the empire!

while Bosnia started existing since...15 years ago:D

http://t.qkme.me/352t2a.jpg

Yawn, West of Bulgaria....;)

I'll just repeat your post here quoted in case you remove your original post this reply will stay as proof of the amount of compressed air you have between your ears.
You got nothing factual covered with reason and proper arguments in it, if you have theses you have to be able to prove it and defend it.

But instead, what you have is ad hominem based insults which although can be fun at first are really boring to repeat..really boring...now I could go and do the same thing for Bulgaria and then you for Bosnia and blah blah...Well as the saying goes haters gonna hate...

Now get that lube and oil up your orifices and get prepared for greasy Neo-Ottoman dicks :D


That whole Baba Vanga thing you try to pull here is too transparent and its obvious that just like her you are really a blind poor creature seeking for attention on forums like this...
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f8e9bd572ad1.jpg

Stay well and I hope you are ready to pick up arms and die for your country when time comes, your country will need heroes like you, they might even give you a medal some sort of Dancing Bear of Gypsies with Golden Crosses ;)

[Monolith]

Croatian nation emerged in areas that never before were connected with Croatian identity and ethnicity...

Most of Bosnia,

Here's a series of maps scanned from various history books (mostly from Šišić and Srkulj), showing Croatia and Bosnia.

Croatia under duke Trpimir
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15968&stc=1&d=1317645628
Croatia under king Tomislav
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15969&stc=1&d=1317645628
Croatia under king Petar Krešimir IV
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15975&stc=1&d=1317647490
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15970&stc=1&d=1317645628
Croatia under king Andrew II
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15971&stc=1&d=1317645628
Bosnia under king Tvrtko
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15973&stc=1&d=1317645628
This last picture shows Bosnian kingdom at its height, under king Tvrtko. Šišić called him the last native king of Croats, since most of them were living in his realm, instead in Croatia-Hungary. I tend to agree.


This picture represents the spread of Croats from their original littoral settlements into the mainland.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15974&stc=1&d=1317645746

Croatian culture from that time is distinguishable from the neighboring Slavic cultures by their Frankish-styled weapons, Croat-specific jewelry, as well as by craniometric data, especially when compared with the neighboring Bijelo brdo culture (Slavic culture of Lower Pannonia, Slavonia, Northern Bosnia, Northern Serbia, even parts of Bulgaria).

study (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=208474&postcount=12)


Slavonia,
Even though the early sources mention that a part of Croats separated from their kinsmen in Dalmatia and founded the Pannonian Duchy, let's disregard that for the sake of argument. Slavonia was a territory north of Gvozd mountain and river Sava, inhabited by Slavs. When Kocel's Lower Pannonia was destroyed by the invading Magyars, great many Slavs from that duchy fled to Slavonia.

It was traditionally a part of the Croatian kingdom. Zagreb, for example, was simply a town in the Slavonian region of the Croatian kingdom. It was not until the Ottoman wars that Croatian name (via nobility and refugees) moved from the South into what was previously only Slavonia.


Dalmatia,
I won't waste my breath on this one. It will suffice to say that Dalmatia was Croatia in the strictest sense.


Istria
It was not originally a part of our medieval kingdom, even though it was continuously colonized by Croats. Its coast used to be Romance-speaking, but its inland never lost its Slavic character. During the Ottoman wars the western part of it was settled with refugees from Lika and Dalmatia.


possibly the area around Zagreb.
Like I said, Zagreb was a town in Slavonia, Croatia.


I will not talk further about Dalmatia and Slavonia but I will just repeat a fact about the Bosnian case. Until the 19. century Croatian name did not exist as an ethnic mark for Catholics in Bosnia proper ( Sava - Neretva - Drina - Vrbas).
First off, ethnicities didn't exist back then. One can talk of regional, and possibly some wider, cultural, identities.

Catholicism was their main identity.
Theoretically speaking, the prerequisites of logistics behind such an undertaking (like assimilating an entire people in less than two generations) would most certainly be nearly impossible to meet. No to mention that was a time when there was no TV, Internet etc.

[Thundermark]

Here's a series of maps scanned from various history books (mostly from Šišić and Srkulj), showing Croatia and Bosnia.

I appreciate your effort but most of these maps are inaccurate. Authors simply draw bosnia inside of Croatian kingdom without any valid historical evidence. btw, Pannonian Croatia never existed, that in the maps is Regnum inter Dravum et Savum. ;)




This last picture shows Bosnian kingdom at its height, under king Tvrtko. Šišić called him the last native king of Croats, since most of them were living in his realm, instead in Croatia-Hungary. I tend to agree.

If you think about western Bosnia then you are right. Also, Tvrtko I was not native to Croats but if you take him as a Slavic ruler opposed to Hungarian dominion, then things are clear. ;) May I just add that he had also the crown of Croatia/Croats.


It was traditionally a part of the Croatian kingdom


I cant agree on this. Romantic vision of Croatian scholars cannot replace lack of evidence for important questions like military spread of Croatia on neighboring areas like SLavonija.


It was not until the Ottoman wars that Croatian name (via nobility and refugees) moved from the South into what was previously only Slavonia.

This is the truth. I agree. The process ended in the 19. century. How is this contrary to my stance on the issue?


I won't waste my breath on this one. It will suffice to say that Dalmatia was Croatia in the strictest sense.

Early Croatian rulers were kings ( or dukes ) of Croatia and Dalmatia. This is one thing, other is related to the fact that I had in mind wider Dalmatia, not only that one from Cetina to Istria. ;)


Its coast used to be Romance-speaking, but its inland never lost its Slavic character. During the Ottoman wars the western part of it was settled with refugees from Lika and Dalmatia.

I dont see how this is related to our topic. ;)


Like I said, Zagreb was a town in Slavonia, Croatia.

"Kingdoms" of Croatia and Slavonija were separated under the crown of Hungary.


First off, ethnicities didn't exist back then. One can talk of regional, and possibly some wider, cultural, identities.

I agree in some extent. On the other hand, its very interesting how we have this definition when talking about Bosnia but when we talk about medieval Serbia and Croatia then people are shown through glasses of modern nationality. Weird. :P
Medieval ethnicity is made of nobles and monks who give allegiance to the royal blood line or centralized state as in western countries.


Theoretically speaking, the prerequisites of logistics behind such an undertaking (like assimilating an entire people in less than two generations) would most certainly be nearly impossible to meet. No to mention that was a time when there was no TV, Internet etc.

Things are not that simple. You see, in Ottoman Bosnian province there was this millet system which separated peoples by religion. Even before Bosnian Catholics started to use the Croatian name, they had great solidarity with neighboring Catholic communities. Also, cultural cooperation started in the beginning of the Ottoman rule over our areas so we practically had this Catholic Slavic population with different names but still with Catholicism as the main identity although some members of intelligentsia expressed ,pretty much, modern national orientation. I can give you examples from bosnia, if you are interested. ;)

The important fact is that center of the Bosnian Catholicism was in Đakovo from where, step-by-step, Croatian-oriented priests were sent to Bosnia. It is not strange that Croatian name firstly emerged within ecclesiastical and trading communities. Also, young people went to school outside of Bosnia. Croatian name in the village was accepted later than in "urban" areas. Let me just say that people did not change their identity, they just changed the name of it. ;)

[Guapo]

I have a hard time telling the difference between Bosnians of all religions.

[Monolith]

I appreciate your effort but most of these maps are inaccurate. Authors simply draw bosnia inside of Croatian kingdom without any valid historical evidence. btw, Pannonian Croatia never existed, that in the maps is Regnum inter Dravum et Savum. ;)
Well, you can't know whether they have any valid historical evidence until you read these books, can you?


If you think about western Bosnia then you are right.
The majority of Croats, with many of them inhabiting the littoral, lived under his rule for a time. Even the royal capitals of Knin and Solin were inside his realm.


Also, Tvrtko I was not native to Croats but if you take him as a Slavic ruler opposed to Hungarian dominion, then things are clear.
Whatever he was, the differences between him and someone from the Croatian nobility were minuscule. They spoke the same language, their realms had the same social structure and they adhered to the same faith. I see no real boundaries separating them.

I cant agree on this. Romantic vision of Croatian scholars cannot replace lack of evidence for important questions like military spread of Croatia on neighboring areas like SLavonija.
Slavonia was a part of the medieval Croatian kingdom from at least king Tomislav. From that time onwards it was one with Croatia, hence the formation of a common identity due to this tradition of statehood. Even Demetrius Zvonimir started as a ban of Slavonia. I really don't think there's much to argue here.


This is the truth. I agree. The process ended in the 19. century. How is this contrary to my stance on the issue?
It's not contrary. I was explaining what I know about what you said are "areas that never before were connected with Croatian identity and ethnicity".


Early Croatian rulers were kings ( or dukes ) of Croatia and Dalmatia. This is one thing, other is related to the fact that I had in mind wider Dalmatia, not only that one from Cetina to Istria. ;)
The name Dalmatia had radically different meanings throughout history. Roman province of Dalmatia was huge, whereas Byzantine theme of Dalmatia was tiny. The latter consisted of several large coastal cities (like Zadar) and the surrounding Adriatic islands. Croatian kings were first regents and then kings of this smaller Dalmatia.

I dont see how this is related to our topic. ;)
That was a short and simplified history of medieval Istria.


"Kingdoms" of Croatia and Slavonija were separated under the crown of Hungary.
They were separated only later. During the personal union, Croatian-Hungarian kings were crowned twice; first in Esztergom and then in Biograd na Moru. At first the kings only had the title of Croatia. They knew very well that Croatia also included Slavonia. Later they added Slavonia to increase the number of titles. Can't blame them, really.


I agree in some extent. On the other hand, its very interesting how we have this definition when talking about Bosnia but when we talk about medieval Serbia and Croatia then people are shown through glasses of modern nationality. Weird. :P
I'm probably the last person to view these things through the prism of modern nations and national myths. Like I said, Croats are those whose ancestors were Slavs affiliated with the Croatian kingdom. So the point is, the defining factor here is the tradition of statehood, rather than regional ancestry.


Medieval ethnicity is made of nobles and monks who give allegiance to the royal blood line or centralized state as in western countries.
Absolutely.


The important fact is that center of the Bosnian Catholicism was in Đakovo from where, step-by-step, Croatian-oriented priests were sent to Bosnia. It is not strange that Croatian name firstly emerged within ecclesiastical and trading communities. Also, young people went to school outside of Bosnia. Croatian name in the village was accepted later than in "urban" areas. Let me just say that people did not change their identity, they just changed the name of it. ;)
After Croatian heartland fell to the Ottomans and Venetians, historical remembrance of Croatian kingdom was all but extinguished there. The tradition was kept alive in some larger cultural centres and proliferated by great men of Croatian history, like Marulić, Hektorović and Zoranić.

I reckon it would be nearly impossible to preserve Croatdom in Bosnia at that time, under arguably more dire circumstances.

[Svarog]

However this discussion is relevant to Serbia I'll never know lol

[Guapo]

Bugarass

[Hurrem sultana]

I dream of a day when all Balkan Muslims are deported to there homeland of Turkey.

well keep on dreaming we are here and will never leave lol

I am bosnian,muslim,blonde i look as european as any german,swedish ;)

[Hurrem sultana]

A few more Srebrenica massacres could change that.

a few more bombings from UN in belgrade could also change stuff :cool:

[Siberyak]

a few more bombings from UN in belgrade could also change stuff :cool:

Yea because Muslims in the Balkans had to turn to there western masters for help.

[Ushtari]

Yea because Muslims in the Balkans had to turn to there western masters for help.
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000345585/polls_cry_me_a_river_4838_417763_answer_1_xlarge.j peg

[BanjaLuka]

Keep it going ...keep it going....

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg227/scaled.php?server=227&filename=toystory3popcorn.gif&res=medium

[Siberyak]

a few more bombings from UN in belgrade could also change stuff :cool:

Hey why don't you defend the Bosnian Muslim terrorist who got off the bus with an Ak-47 and fired shots at the American embassy in sarajevo?

[Hurrem sultana]

get a life siberyak

[Siberyak]

Sorry I guess that one was too much for you.

[Monolith]

Hey why don't you defend the Bosnian Muslim terrorist who got off the bus with an Ak-47 and fired shots at the American embassy in sarajevo?
I thought they said he's a Muslim from Serbia?