new K13 model for SE Europeans

[Jana]

Got tired of using ancients.


Slavic:Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44 ,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Germanic:Denmark,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52, 0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Germanic:Dutch_North,49.31,26.39,10.94,5.26,3.09,0 .73,0.88,0.38,0.64,0.71,0.50,0.50,0.60
Vlach:IT_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61, 0.18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Vlach:IT_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61, 0.12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Vlach:IT_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79, 0.22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Vlach:IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95, 0.28,0.05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
Slavic:Masurian,31.66,44.71,11.83,4.12,2.82,1.20,0 .89,0.20,1.14,0.39,0.29,0.17,0.58
Germanic:North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24, 0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17
Alan:North_Ossetian,6.39,11.93,7.27,48.78,14.62,1. 38,1.74,2.27,4.59,0.62,0.30,0.06,0.05
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Germanic:Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43 ,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Alan:Ossetian,7.84,7.30,9.08,48.98,14.05,1.99,2.74 ,2.92,4.19,0.56,0.21,0.13,0.01
Slavic:Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.9 6,0.11,0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Slavic:Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83 ,1.69,1.38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Slavic:Southwest_Russian,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.2 6,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Germanic:Sweden_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.8 8,0.62,0.93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Turkic:Tatar,18.88,34.62,5.85,11.66,3.85,0.90,2.68 ,3.12,15.56,2.00,0.28,0.13,0.46
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
Slavic:Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16, 1.09,0.91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78,5. 54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Vlach:FrenchCorsica,26.74,9.01,28.48,6.84,23.99,3. 65,0.18,0.18,0.21,0.17,0.45,0.1,0
Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen,7.16,12.65,3.08,22.29,7.92,0 .41,8.31,10.56,24.77,1.32,0.69,0.23,0.63
Turkic:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3. 45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27

[Jana]

Distance: 2.5000% / 2.50004642
Target: Stearsolina

56.2 Slavic
19.5 Vlach
14.7 Germanic
9.6 Alan

Distance: 0.6679% / 0.66786551
Target: Stears

41.2 Slavic
31.6 Germanic
16.7 Vlach
8.1 Alan
2.4 Turkic

[Kaspias]

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 515.9752% / 5.15975186
54.2 Vlach
45.8 Turkic

Kazan Tatar removed,

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 554.7037% / 5.54703694
47.2 Vlach
32.8 Turkic
20.0 Slavic

AFG Turkmen added,

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 246.8256% / 2.46825565
50.2 Vlach
25.6 Turkic
24.2 Slavic

[Chris596]

It's a bit weird for me, probably? I'm not that Slavic and I don't score Turkic here

Distance: 2.3228% / 2.32279142
Target: Chris
60.2 Slavic
37.1 Vlach
2.7 Alan

Distance to: Chris
17.70996612 Slavic:Ukrainian
21.05237516 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
21.27246107 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
21.34607458 Slavic:Polish
21.68769467 Slavic:Masurian
22.37222385 Slavic:Cossacks_Kuban
22.41240728 Turkic:Tatar
23.17120411 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
23.45945438 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
24.61211084 Slavic:Belorussian
25.85627197 Germanic:North_German
26.91819273 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
27.10793795 Vlach:IT_Puglia
27.18339383 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
28.16813625 Vlach:IT_Apulia
28.44165959 Germanic:Dutch_North
29.94496619 Germanic:Denmark
30.07473857 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
30.36492878 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
30.50549787 Germanic:Norwegian
47.22926529 Alan:North_Ossetian
48.62741305 Alan:Ossetian

[Jana]

Thanks Kaspias! Afg_Turkmen added in the code.

[Jana]

It's a bit weird for me, probably? I'm not that Slavic and I don't score Turkic here

Distance: 2.3228% / 2.32279142
Target: Chris
60.2 Slavic
37.1 Vlach
2.7 Alan


Slavo-Vlach :P

[Abriekman]

Lol, why do you use Cossacks_Kuban as Slavic? Cossacks spoke Tatar before 19 century and 50% of their genetic is Finno-Ugric, Turkic, you can even see that on G25 with all samples

[Jana]

Lol, why do you use Cossacks_Kuban as Slavic? Cossacks spoke Tatar before 19 century and 50% of their genetic is Finno-Ugric, Turkic, you can even see that on G25 with all samples

No, their K13 average is normal Slavic.

Distance to: Cossacks_Kuban

4.78076354 Polish
5.06032608 Masurian
5.32195453 Russian_Smolensk
5.45415438 Russian
5.95666853 Estonian_Polish
6.39350452 Ukrainian
6.53889899 Ukrainian_Lviv
6.58935505 Belorussian
6.89104491 Southwest_Russian
6.93850128 Russian_Kostroma

[Abriekman]

No, their K13 average is normal Slavic.

Distance to: Cossacks_Kuban

4.78076354 Polish
5.06032608 Masurian
5.32195453 Russian_Smolensk
5.45415438 Russian
5.95666853 Estonian_Polish
6.39350452 Ukrainian
6.53889899 Ukrainian_Lviv
6.58935505 Belorussian
6.89104491 Southwest_Russian
6.93850128 Russian_Kostroma

Distance is high and K13 is trash in comprasion to G25


Distance: 2.1883% / 0.02188331
Target: Cossack_Kuban | ADC: 0.5x RC
50.8 Slovakian
47.2 Vepsian
2.0 Mordovian


Distance: 2.8229% / 0.02822935
Target: Cossack_Kuban | ADC: 1x RC
61.7 Russian_Tver
38.3 Mordovian

[Abriekman]

This is Kuban Cossack phenotype if you are interested

Ethnic Kuban Cossack

https://i.imgur.com/Rru1xhI.jpg

[17571imre]

very good results for us! thankyou Feiichy

Distance: 1.2565% / 1.25647057
Target: mh
42.8 Vlach
34.8 Slavic
22.2 Germanic
0.2 Turkic

mother
Distance: 2.9631% / 2.96308531
Target: cb
40.9 Slavic
36.9 Vlach
15.1 Germanic
7.1 Turkic

[Jana]

This is Kuban Cossack phenotype if you are interested

Ethnic Kuban Cossack

https://i.imgur.com/Rru1xhI.jpg

Kuban Cossacks

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20150508/00016c42b36b16b66e9425.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/ENNYCY/moscow-russia-9th-may-2015-kuban-cossacks-take-part-in-the-military-ENNYCY.jpg

They're just Ukrainians for most part. Some may have Circassian or minor Turk input but vas majority is average eastern Slav.

[Jana]

Btw, if you don't like my models, don't post here thank you.
I highly dislike you so please leave my thread.

G25 is pure trash for moderns.

[Jana]

Hrvoje has really similar results like me, just with a better fit:

Distance: 1.5017% / 1.50174407
Target: Hrvoje(Croat+Slovenian)

50.3 Slavic
20.2 Vlach
19.3 Germanic
10.2 Alan

[Jana]

some Croatian members:

northern Croat

Distance: 1.0921% / 1.09206235
Target: Ph2ter

58.8 Slavic
24.2 Germanic
13.2 Vlach
3.8 Alan

eastern Croat (not a member but woman I tested)

Distance: 1.7917% / 1.79173245
Target: Manda

78.4 Slavic
17.6 Vlach
4.0 Alan

southern Croat (his fit is horrible, probably because of his atypical west med and north atlantic score)

Distance: 7.5303% / 7.53025186
Target: Knez01

63.1 Slavic
36.9 Vlach

Bosnian-Herzegovian Croats

Distance: 2.2524% / 2.25240463
Target: un4given

63.5 Slavic
36.5 Vlach

Distance: 2.5624% / 2.56240743
Target: Westcoast

70.7 Slavic
29.3 Vlach

Distance: 4.9465% / 4.94653536
Target: Nomadic

54.4 Slavic
45.6 Vlach

Distance: 1.4236% / 1.42362829
Target: Max_soldo

72.1 Slavic
27.9 Vlach

[Thracian]

Target: Thracian(balkan_turk)
Distance: 337.6936% / 3.37693574
60.0 Vlach
17.6 Slavic
10.8 Alan
10.0 Turkic
1.6 Germanic

[Abriekman]

Kuban Cossacks

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20150508/00016c42b36b16b66e9425.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/ENNYCY/moscow-russia-9th-may-2015-kuban-cossacks-take-part-in-the-military-ENNYCY.jpg

They're just Ukrainians for most part. Some may have Circassian or minor Turk input but vas majority is average eastern Slav.

They have nothing Ukrainian, their ancestors were mostly Russians from regions admixed with Finno-Ugric peoples

[Jana]

south Slav averages from Vahaduo :) great distances!

Distance: 0.6075% / 0.60746448
Target: Croat

60.5 Slavic
31.9 Vlach
7.6 Germanic

Distance: 0.8741% / 0.87413668
Target: Serb

57.9 Slavic
42.1 Vlach

Distance: 1.0041% / 1.00414176
Target: Bulgarian

57.5 Vlach
41.4 Slavic
1.1 Alan

Distance: 0.6459% / 0.64588331
Target: Bosniak

64.0 Slavic
36.0 Vlach

Distance: 0.8512% / 0.85115379
Target: Slovenian

59.3 Slavic
25.2 Vlach
15.5 Germanic

Distance: 1.4699% / 1.46994118
Target: Macedonian

65.2 Vlach
34.8 Slavic

Distance: 0.7240% / 0.72401306
Target: Montenegrin

54.4 Vlach
44.1 Slavic
1.5 Alan

Distance: 2.7816% / 2.78157197
Target: Pomak

58.4 Vlach
37.0 Slavic
4.6 Alan

Distance: 2.5398% / 2.53977340
Target: Torbesh

78.3 Vlach
21.7 Slavic

[Abriekman]

Btw, if you don't like my models, don't post here thank you.
I highly dislike you so please leave my thread.

G25 is pure trash for moderns.

I do not care. G25 is better, than every Gedmatch calculator

[Jana]

They have nothing Ukrainian, their ancestors were mostly Russians from regions admixed with Finno-Ugric peoples

Get out of my thread Jude.

[calxpal]

Not for me, but I was tempted to try it :thumb001:

Distance: 1.0272% / 1.02716754
Target: cpal
53.4 Germanic
23.5 Vlach
23.1 Slavic

Distance: 1.0272% / 1.02716754
Target: cpal
41.3 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
20.5 Slavic:Cossacks_Kuban
17.9 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
10.8 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
5.6 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
2.6 Slavic:Belorussian
1.3 Germanic:Denmark


Distance to: cpal
9.55423990 Germanic:North_German
11.94248299 Germanic:Dutch_North
13.49768499 Germanic:Denmark
13.64580522 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
13.90909055 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
14.15004947 Germanic:Norwegian
19.01827542 Slavic:Masurian
19.36276840 Slavic:Ukrainian
19.96708291 Slavic:Polish
20.98515428 Slavic:Cossacks_Kuban
23.64280863 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
23.67860004 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
24.00781748 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
24.13279719 Slavic:Belorussian
27.58546900 Turkic:Tatar
28.41543947 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
32.17295759 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
34.62377507 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
36.04459183 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
36.81626814 Vlach:IT_Puglia
37.67983015 Vlach:IT_Apulia
48.19211139 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
56.70691669 Alan:North_Ossetian
57.36980739 Alan:Ossetian

Good distance :) lol

Distance: 1.3737% / 1.37367310
Target: cpal | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.9 Germanic:North_German
23.7 Slavic:Cossacks_Kuban
20.4 Vlach:IT_Tuscan

[Jana]

On average Bosniaks are most Slavic south Slavs (ironic :laugh:), and Torbesh the least.

[Ion Basescul]

Distance: 1.2739% / 1.27389970
Target: Ion_Basescul_MyHeritage
57.4 Slavic
28.8 Vlach
8.6 Alan
5.2 Turkic

[Kyp]

Distance: 5.2298% / 5.22976767
Target: Kyp
35.6 Vlach
21.8 Alan
16.4 Germanic
15.2 Slavic
11.0 Turkic

[Jana]

some other national averages from Vahaduo

Distance: 0.0990% / 0.09896383
Target: Hungarian

55.6 Slavic
26.9 Vlach
16.7 Germanic
0.8 Turkic

Distance: 0.5425% / 0.54246764
Target: Romanian

49.2 Slavic
49.0 Vlach
1.2 Turkic
0.6 Alan

Distance: 0.7473% / 0.74734359
Target: Moldovan

58.1 Slavic
38.5 Vlach
2.1 Turkic
1.3 Alan

Distance: 2.2443% / 2.24429640
Target: Gagauz

59.9 Vlach
34.4 Slavic
5.7 Alan

[gixajo]

Absurd distances, of course.

Distance: 14.6849% / 14.68486410
Target: gixajo
55.4 Vlach
44.6 Germanic

Distance: 12.9491% / 12.94907612
Target: gixajo_dad
68.0 Vlach
32.0 Germanic

Distance: 16.1022% / 16.10221136
Target: gixajo_mom
50.1 Vlach
49.9 Germanic

Adding 4 Iberian references (if someone want to use them here they are):


Iberian:Portuguese,38.54,11.51,25.32,2.43,13.90,3. 63,0.42,0.14,0.25,0.44,0.67,1.72,1.04
Iberian:Basque,52.62,6.10,35.86,0.35,3.07,0.31,0.3 2,0.65,0.06,0.08,0.30,0.22,0.04
Iberian:Andalucia,39.07,8.19,29.07,3.83,14.11,1.95 ,0.60,0.29,0.63,0.02,0.40,1.28,0.57
Iberian:Galicia,38.51,12.18,26.23,1.97,11.93,4.55, 1.49,0.36,0.22,0.14,0.00,1.26,1.16

Distance: 3.5592% / 3.55916243
Target: gixajo
90.6 Iberian
5.7 Slavic
3.7 Vlach

Distance: 4.1402% / 4.14021833
Target: gixajo_dad
80.4 Iberian
19.6 Vlach

Distance: 2.0968% / 2.09683170
Target: gixajo_mom
94.0 Iberian
6.0 Slavic

[Jana]

I still don't get why some Croats like me or Hrvoje get 10% of north Caucasus admixture in each run. I can't get good distance without Caucasus samples.

[Dušan]

Distance: 4.6335% / 4.63349539
Target: Dušan
66.9 Slavic
32.4 Vlach
0.7 Turkic



Distance is a bit high. It could be closer.

[Jana]

Distance: 4.6335% / 4.63349539
Target: Dušan
66.9 Slavic
32.4 Vlach
0.7 Turkic


Distance is a bit high. It could be closer.

Serbs average has distance under 1.

[Jana]

I do not care. G25 is better, than every Gedmatch calculator

Not for modern averages, on G25 they are pretty bad. No go away! :D

[Chris596]

some other national averages from Vahaduo

Distance: 0.0990% / 0.09896383
Target: Hungarian

55.6 Slavic
26.9 Vlach
16.7 Germanic
0.8 Turkic

Distance: 0.5425% / 0.54246764
Target: Romanian

49.2 Slavic
49.0 Vlach
1.2 Turkic
0.6 Alan

Distance: 0.7473% / 0.74734359
Target: Moldovan

58.1 Slavic
38.5 Vlach
2.1 Turkic
1.3 Alan

Distance: 2.2443% / 2.24429640
Target: Gagauz

59.9 Vlach
34.4 Slavic
5.7 Alan

Very interesting, my results are most similar to Moldovan score. I would say that autosomally I'm somewhere between Serbs, Moldovans and Gagauz, these three ethnicities. Most of my G25 and Vahaduo results show this.

Edit: I meant to say Moldovan, not Gagauz..

[Leto]

Kuban Cossacks

[img]http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20150508/00016c42b36b16b66e9425.jpg
[img]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/ENNYCY/moscow-russia-9th-may-2015-kuban-cossacks-take-part-in-the-military-ENNYCY.jpg

They're just Ukrainians for most part. Some may have Circassian or minor Turk input but vas majority is average eastern Slav.
Kuban/Don Cossacks are Southern Russians, he is wrong. They have always been Slavic speakers and Orthodox Christians. And now the Cossackdom is semi-LARPing anyway, they've accepted a bunch of people in their ranks over the past 30 years. I wouldn't use that average because its origin is uncertain, so is the sample size. Don't even know who added it.

[catgeorge]

Distance: 1.2982% / 1.29819235
Target: Sarakatsani
75.4 Vlach
13.6 Slavic
8.5 Germanic
2.5 Alan

[Gallop]

Distance: 14.1459% / 14.14593735
Target: Gallop
56.1 Vlach
43.9 Germanic

Adding the samples published by gixajo


Distance: 2.8354% / 2.83544810
Target: Gallop
46.4 Iberian:Basque
41.6 Iberian:Galicia
8.7 Alan:North_Ossetian
3.3 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar

Distance: 2.7431% / 2.74305400
Target: Gallop | ADC: 0.25x RC
46.2 Iberian:Basque
40.7 Iberian:Galicia
8.7 Alan:Ossetian
4.4 Turkic:Tatar


xd

[Jana]

Kuban Cossacks are Southern Russians, he is wrong. They have always been Slavic speakers and Orthodox Christians. And now the Cossackdom is semi-LARPing anyway, they've accepted a bunch of people in their ranks over the past 30 years. I wouldn't use that average because its origin is uncertain, so is the sample size. Don't even know who added it.

And southern Russians are Ukrainian like genetically :)
I mean they are much more like average Ukrainians than ukrainised Rusyns from SW Ukraine.

I'll remove that average, for samples I tested nothing changes anyway. Slavic I get is Ukrainian in this run.

[Leto]

And southern Russians are Ukrainian like genetically :)
I mean they are much more like average Ukrainians than ukrainised Rusyns from SW Ukraine.

I'll remove that average, for samples I tested nothing changes anyway. Slavic I get is Ukrainian in this run.
And Ukrainians are Southern Russians... :rolleyes:

[Leto]

I don't think Kazan Tatars should be part of the Turkic reference. They're too European for that.

[Dušan]

Serbs average has distance under 1.

Yes, I noticed that.

Vlach samples in your calculator are not suitable for me.

I added Sardinian and Cretan samples, and got very nice distance of less than 2.


Sardinia,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0,0.13,0 .03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1
Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.12,0.27 ,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16



Distance: 1.8337% / 1.83374245
Target: Dušan
66.2 Slavic
20.2 Sardinia
10.2 Greek_Crete
3.4 Alan

[Abriekman]

Not for modern averages, on G25 they are pretty bad. No go away! :D

They are pretty good on G25

[Leto]

Add Bashkir instead of Tatar, it's in the updated sheet.

[Abriekman]

Kuban/Don Cossacks are Southern Russians, he is wrong. They have always been Slavic speakers and Orthodox Christians. And now the Cossackdom is semi-LARPing anyway, they've accepted a bunch of people in their ranks over the past 30 years. I wouldn't use that average because its origin is uncertain, so is the sample size. Don't even know who added it.

They spoke Tatar language before 19th century, see them on G25, is 50% Vepsian Slavic? It is Finno-Ugric. On Anthrogenica we already talked about it

[andre]

Distance: 1.7733% / 1.77330277
Target: Andre
54.3 Vlach
42.4 Slavic
3.3 Turkic

Sorry but now i should do transhumance fo only 20.000 km, from Balkans to Silicon Valley..

[Jana]

I re-ran all national averages and individual samples I posted without Cossacks, no change. Which mean they weren't useful in model anyway.
Code has ben fixed :)

[Jana]

Yes, I noticed that.

Vlach samples in your calculator are not suitable for me.

I added Sardinian and Cretan samples, and got very nice distance of less than 2.


Sardinia,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0,0.13,0 .03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1
Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.12,0.27 ,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16



Distance: 1.8337% / 1.83374245
Target: Dušan
66.2 Slavic
20.2 Sardinia
10.2 Greek_Crete
3.4 Alan

Yeah, your Vlach part is more southern than is usual. Mix of Paleo-Balkanites and Romans in Balkans produced Corsican and south-central Italian (Abruzzo/Apulia, Tuscany) like population.
I remember in other calcs you would regulary score ancient Greek. Very interesting.

[Leto]

They spoke Tatar language before 19th century, see them on G25, is 50% Vepsian Slavic? It is Finno-Ugric. On Anthrogenica we already talked about it
That's a load of nonsense. The Cossacks are russki. So many people have been trying to deconstruct or redefine what it means to be russki, that's sickening. Also they can't be Finno-Ugric either because they originated in the Southern Steppe. Of course there were also Ural and Siberian Cossacks too but I don't think they are a thing today.

[Jana]

And Ukrainians are Southern Russians... :rolleyes:

who cares. they are same genetically in the end. good amount of eastern ukrainian population identifies as russian anyway.

[oszkar07]

I know better suited for South East Euro's so just for fun.


Target: Oszkar
Distance: 189.7293% / 1.89729339
43.4 Germanic
31.2 Slavic
23.6 Vlach
1.8 Turkic


Target: Oszkar
Distance: 258.5384% / 2.58538431 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.6 Germanic
38.0 Slavic
18.4 Vlach

[Leto]

This is a good proxy for Turkic


Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3.45,8.71 ,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27

[Jana]

This is a good proxy for Turkic


Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3.45,8.71 ,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27


Added.

[Abriekman]

That's a load of nonsense. The Cossacks are russki. So many people have been trying to deconstruct or redefine what it means to be russki, that's sickening. Also they can't be Finno-Ugric either because they originated in the Southern Steppe. Of course there were also Ural and Siberian Cossacks too but I don't think they are a thing today.

"South Russia, where Cuban Cossacks live was populated from Central Russia. In the case of Central Russia some of them had strong Finno-Ugrian admixture. So these Cossack sample from Kuban clusters closest with Russians in Kostroma and Tver on Global25. He has" some strong Finno-Ugrian ancestry from the Volga region. Other Cossack samples probably have actual Tatar or Caucasian ancestry but this must be looked individualy and many if not most samples will lack such kind of admix." - user on Anthrogenica said, very good comment

[Leto]

"South Russia, where Cuban Cossacks live was populated from Central Russia. In the case of Central Russia some of them had strong Finno-Ugrian admixture. So these Cossack sample from Kuban clusters closest with Russians in Kostroma and Tver on Global25. He has" some strong Finno-Ugrian ancestry from the Volga region. Other Cossack samples probably have actual Tatar or Caucasian ancestry but this must be looked individualy and many if not most samples will lack such kind of admix." - user on Anthrogenica said, very good comment
Krasnodar krai had a huge number of maloros settlers. And Kostroma isn't Central Russian but pretty much Northern.

I don't really care what those snowflakes on Anthro-gay-nica say. On that forum I can't even use innocuous words like 'race' or 'Mongoloid' without receiving a warning. That forum is full of liberals.

[Abriekman]

Krasnodar krai had a huge number of maloros settlers. And Kostroma isn't Central Russian but pretty much Northern.

I don't really care what those snowflakes on Anthro-gay-nica say. On that forum I can't even use innocuous words like 'race' or 'Mongoloid' without receiving a warning. That forum is full of liberals.

Anthrogenica is much better, than apricity trash to be honest, on this forum here are hardly even 5% threads about genetics

[Leto]

Anthrogenica is much better, than apricity trash to be honest, on this forum there are hardly even 5% threads about genetics
Yeah, the direction of that forum should be combined with the lax free speech rules of this one. I would fucking ban the taxonomy and other kinds of bullshit and make TA a DNA forum. But less high-brow than AG which is hard to follow at times.

[Jana]

Anthrogenica is much better, than apricity trash to be honest, on this forum here are hardly even 5% threads about genetics

Go back to Jewgenica, please! I will be delighted to get rid of....your presence :cool:

[gixajo]

Not for modern averages, on G25 they are pretty bad. No go away! :D

Well, K13 updated datasheet is full of references from balkan, slavs, eastern Europe etc, many suggested and made by many forum mebers, and some of these references even are made with some forum members coordinates mixed in the averages. So your well ellaborated references work fine for your people.

So, yes, you have made an excellent work, and other ethnicities people should do the same.

I don´t remember well if was Leto who kindly participated in making some new Iberian references,and that finnish man also made a pair of Iberian new references (not added to the updated datassheet AFAIK) but the proportion of Balkan/Spavs/Eastern Europe participation in K13 compared with other people it's overwhelming.

[Abriekman]

Go back to Jewgenica, please! I will be delighted to get rid of....your presence :cool:

You are obsessed with Jews. I am spending more time on Anthrogenica, than on this trash fortunately, maybe if there were fewer idiots like you, forum would be on Anthrogenica level

[Leto]

I don´t remember well if was Leto who kindly participated in making some new Iberian references,and that finnish man also made a pair of Iberian new references (not added to the updated datassheet AFAIK) but the proportion of Balkan/Spavs/Eastern Europe participation in K13 compared with other people it's overwhelming.
I haven't done any Iberians for K13. Spain has like 6-7 averages from the original spreadsheet + Portuguese. You can't say Davidski dislikes Spain, he prolly travels there on vacation :cool:

[Jana]

Well, K13 updated datasheet is full of references from balkan, slavs, eastern Europe etc, many suggested and made by many forum mebers, and some of these references even are made with some forum members coordinates mixed in the averages. So your well ellaborated references work fine for your people.

So, yes, you have made an excellent work, and other ethnicities people should do the same.

I don´t remember well if was Leto who kindly participated in making some new Iberian references,and that finnish man also made a pair of Iberian new references (not added to the updated datassheet AFAIK) but the proportion of Balkan/Spavs/Eastern Europe participation in K13 compared with other people it's overwhelming.

Agree, would be great if all parts of Europe made updated and correct averages like our region has. There is improvement in NW Euro area, Creoda made new British/Irish and Dutch averages and is working on German ones.
I think user Aren made good new Scandinavian averages. Italian ones are also recent if I'm not mistaken.

You will know best which Iberian averages need update if they do.

[Jana]

You are obsessed with Jews. I am spending more time on Anthrogenica, than on this trash fortunately, maybe if there were fewer idiots like you, forum would be on Anthrogenica level

I have lots of contribution for Apricity, from genetics and anthro to cultural threads. I was banned on jewgenica which is why I dislike it.
It's full of Soros supporting neo-liberals like you.

[Defcon2]

I haven't done any Iberians for K13. Spain has like 6-7 averages from the original spreadsheet + Portuguese. You can't say Davidski dislikes Spain, he prolly travels there on vacation :cool:

I don't think so, Australia has a climate similar to Spain but with killer tarantulas. :)

[someonenotyou]

Distance: 3.1547% / 3.15465047
Target:
42.2 Slavic
31.0 Vlach
16.1 Germanic
9.8 Alan
0.9 Turkic

Distance: 3.4557% / 3.45574260
Target: | ADC: 0.25x RC
39.2 Slavic
28.3 Vlach
24.3 Germanic
7.0 Alan
1.2 Turkic

Distance to:
18.62290525 Slavic:Ukrainian
19.25009870 Germanic:North_German
20.74483068 Slavic:Masurian
21.31468039 Slavic:Polish
21.57073712 Germanic:Dutch_North
22.90458906 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
23.30415628 Germanic:Denmark
23.35143679 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
23.53617004 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
23.53923533 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
23.82773594 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
23.88316353 Germanic:Norwegian
24.18320698 Turkic:Tatar
24.51952895 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
25.85105994 Slavic:Belorussian
26.38951686 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
28.91914245 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
29.72716939 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
29.97413885 Vlach:IT_Puglia
30.94116998 Vlach:IT_Apulia
37.11224057 Turkic:Bashkir
42.72077715 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
49.81784620 Alan:North_Ossetian
50.52650196 Alan:Ossetian

[lockdownboredom]

Distance: 3.1214% / 3.12140866
Target: lockdownboredom(Greek)
76.0 Vlach
24.0 Slavic

[Coastal Elite]

Not full SE but the fit isn't bad. Slavs were afraid of the Fagaras/Olt Valley region of Transylvania.

AncesrtyDNA
Distance: 2.7026% / 2.70259096
Target: Daco
58.7 Germanic
37.9 Vlach
3.4 Alan

23andMe
Distance: 2.5185% / 2.51852818
Target: Daco
66.5 Germanic
32.5 Vlach
1.0 Slavic

[Leto]

I have lots of contribution for Apricity, from genetics and anthro to cultural threads. I was banned on jewgenica which is why I dislike it.
It's full of Soros supporting neo-liberals like you.
They constantly write hit pieces against Lukasz for whatever reason.
Coldmountains/Arhat is a great guy from there, not sure if he is still active. That guy knows a lot about Slavs (he is Russian and partially Afghan with an interesting family history - raised in Germany). We exchanged messages in the past, some of the topics would get me banned from AG. But lately he hasn't been responding to me, maybe he's changed his mind or is simply busy or uninterested.

[Luke35]

I get a tight distance on this.

Target: MrG
Distance: 97.1349% / 0.97134916
56.6 Germanic
25.6 Vlach
14.8 Slavic
3.0 Turkic


Target: MrG
Distance: 120.1646% / 1.20164555 | ADC: 0.25x RC
56.2 Germanic
25.2 Vlach
14.4 Slavic
4.2 Turkic

[Jana]

Czechs and Slovaks have some southern admixture too, and especially Rusyns, those from SW Ukraine are 1/4 Vlach. I think Rusyns from east Slovakia will be more northern though.

Distance: 0.4585% / 0.45847166
Target: Czech

63.4 Slavic
25.0 Germanic
11.6 Vlach

Distance: 0.3911% / 0.39106976
Target: Slovak

70.3 Slavic
16.6 Vlach
13.1 Germanic

Distance: 1.5799% / 1.57985652
Target: Rusyn

74.4 Slavic
25.6 Vlach

[Jana]

What would you recommend for Celtic samples? I didn't include them because they are problematic. Nations like Swiss or Austrians/French have too much Germanic.
I know Vbn think Celts were pretty southern, North_Italian like, it's possible, because XP thinks they were SW French like if I am not mistaken.

But Sw France makes less sense to me because it's heavily Basque in blood. Maybe Basque are close to Celts though, they didn't keep much of their original genetics anyway.

This question is rather complex so that's why I didn't include Celtic proxys.

North Italians were shifted south via imperial Roman admix and than back north via Germanic input, but they could still be close to what central Euro Celts were like, I am just not very sure about it.

[paradox]

Not good for me but i wanted to try it. Close distance for my dad.

Distance: 5.5719% / 5.57186453
Target: K13
71.3Vlach
24.1Slavic
4.6Alan

Distance: 0.7944% / 0.79442902
Target: Fatherk13
59.7Vlach
32.1Slavic
7.0Germanic
1.2Turkic


With Sardinian and Crete added

Distance: 1.7147% / 1.71471840
Target: K13
71.7Greek_Crete
28.3Slavic

Distance: 0.7944% / 0.79442902
Target: Fatherk13
59.7Vlach
32.1Slavic
7.0Germanic
1.2Turkic

[Jana]

Yes, this calculator isn't suited for vast majority of Greeks. Because Romanized Balkanites were more northern, Greeks have more Med and southern old Hellenic blood. This is primarly deigned for south Slavs and people similar to them.

[Jana]

modern day Vlachs weren't untouched by Slavic input, that's why I2-din and R1a lineages exist among them.

Distance: 1.0594% / 1.05940556
Target: Aromanian

70.3 Vlach
29.7 Slavic

Albanians also have some Slavic input, but less than Aromanians and it fits well with fact Albos preserved more native Balkan lineages than them and have less Slavic ones.

Distance: 2.1169% / 2.11690831
Target: Albanian

78.0 Vlach
22.0 Slavic

[Jana]

Not full SE but the fit isn't bad. Slavs were afraid of the Fagaras/Olt Valley region of Transylvania.

AncesrtyDNA
Distance: 2.7026% / 2.70259096
Target: Daco
58.7 Germanic
37.9 Vlach
3.4 Alan

23andMe
Distance: 2.5185% / 2.51852818
Target: Daco
66.5 Germanic
32.5 Vlach
1.0 Slavic

It's incredible how you always get close to zero Slavic on these models and your Romanian side look almost full Vlach with some Germanic.
Maybe your parent comes from some highly isolated and genetically outlying sub-group of Romanians, would be interested to explore genetics of the region.

[Coastal Elite]

It's incredible how you always get close to zero Slavic on these models and your Romanian side look almost full Vlach with some Germanic.
Maybe your parent comes from some highly isolated and genetically outlying sub-group of Romanians, would be interested to explore genetics of the region.

I agree that it is kind of bizarre. I believe the rural area had less of a Hungarian presence than other parts of Transylvania but that doesn't really explain the lack of Slavic input. I also seem to get a small but consistent German input on my Dad's side on G25. I do know that there was a sizable German population in the region on the north side of the Olt River, some within 8 kilometers of my grandparents village, but have no knowledge of them mixing. Mysterious indeed.

[J. Ketch]

What would you recommend for Celtic samples? I didn't include them because they are problematic. Nations like Swiss or Austrians/French have too much Germanic.
I know Vbn think Celts were pretty southern, North_Italian like, it's possible, because XP thinks they were SW French like if I am not mistaken.

But Sw France makes less sense to me because it's heavily Basque in blood. Maybe Basque are close to Celts though, they didn't keep much of their original genetics anyway.

This question is rather complex so that's why I didn't include Celtic proxys.

North Italians were shifted south via imperial Roman admix and than back north via Germanic input, but they could still be close to what central Euro Celts were like, I am just not very sure about it.
The Celtic question remains very tricky. On one hand they shifted Bronze Age French and British South, in a North Italian direction, on the other hand they shifted Bronze Age Iberians North, in a seemingly Central European direction. Recently Davidski has said Iron Age Celts weren't North Italian-like, and were in fact very Northern (and that Cisalpine Gauls in IA Northern Italy were French-like), so who knows. Agreed that they certainly weren't Basque-like though.

[MandM]

Target: Milenko
Distance: 474.2105% / 4.74210510 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.8 Slavic
45.2 Vlach

[Scandal]

Distance: 3.5054% / 3.50543197
Target: Universe(hungarian)
74.0 Slavic
26.0 Vlach

[Abriekman]

They constantly write hit pieces against Lukasz for whatever reason.
Coldmountains/Arhat is a great guy from there, not sure if he is still active. That guy knows a lot about Slavs (he is Russian and partially Afghan with an interesting family history - raised in Germany). We exchanged messages in the past, some of the topics would get me banned from AG. But lately he hasn't been responding to me, maybe he's changed his mind or is simply busy or uninterested.

That comment about Kuban Cossacks, what I said was said actually by Coldmountains

[Kökény]

Distance: 1.2875% / 1.28751172
Target: Kökény
37.3 Vlach
27.5 Germanic
23.1 Slavic
12.1 Turkic

[Jana]

Distance: 1.2875% / 1.28751172
Target: Kökény
37.3 Vlach
27.5 Germanic
23.1 Slavic
12.1 Turkic

Damn, true Hunnic Szekely! :D :thumbsup:
and your fit is great!

[Ylla]

85.2 Vlach
14.8 Slavic
What does vlach mean are they an ethnic group? I've actually never heard of this term before signing up here.

[Impaler]

The fit is high for me, so I added Iranic samples:

Target: Impaler
Distance: 591.8842% / 5.91884170
59.8 Vlach
16.8 Slavic
11.8 Turkic
11.6 Germanic


Target: Impaler
Distance: 460.0542% / 4.60054221
55.0 Vlach
17.2 Slavic
12.2 Iranic
11.8 Germanic
3.8 Turkic

[Jana]

85.2 Vlach
14.8 Slavic
What does vlach mean are they an ethnic group? I've actually never heard of this term before signing up here.

Ofcourse they are, Aromanians are modern day Vlachs. But this calculator measures ancient Vlach input, which means Romanized Paleo-Balkan population (mix of Illyrians-Thracians-Dacians and Romans)
At the time Slavs settled Balkans, there were no pure Paleo-Balkan people left but a mass of Roman speaking Balkanites who mixed with them, and such mix looks to be genetically close to south-central Italians.

Albanians have avoided linguistic Romanisation, but they weren't untouched genetically.

[catgeorge]

85.2 Vlach
14.8 Slavic
What does vlach mean are they an ethnic group? I've actually never heard of this term before signing up here.

Part of the Paleo Balkan people which you are one of them obviously.

[Token]

Ofcourse they are, Aromanians are modern day Vlachs. But this calculator measures ancient Vlach input, which means Romanized Paleo-Balkan population (mix of Illyrians-Thracians-Dacians and Romans)
At the time Slavs settled Balkans, there were no pure Paleo-Balkan people left but a mass of Roman speaking Balkanites who mixed with them, and such mix looks to be genetically close to south-central Italians.

Albanians have avoided linguistic Romanisation, but they weren't untouched genetically.

Roman admixture in modern-day Balkanites would explain why i can't model Balkaniets with the avaiable Iron age Balkan samples on qpAdm without getting high std errors and low p-value. Lack of a good Early Slavic sample too.

[Jana]

Roman admixture in modern-day Balkanites would explain why i can't model Balkaniets with the avaiable Iron age Balkan samples on qpAdm without getting high std errors and low p-value. Lack of a good Early Slavic sample too.

From our amateurish models autosomal imperial Roman admix seems to be very significant.
Btw, which modern population would you use for Celtic proxy?

There was discussion about it on previous page, and Creoda made a very good post about it.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338307-new-K13-model-for-SE-Europeans&p=7028781&viewfull=1#post7028781
But we still aren't sure.

[Grace O'Malley]

What would you recommend for Celtic samples? I didn't include them because they are problematic. Nations like Swiss or Austrians/French have too much Germanic.
I know Vbn think Celts were pretty southern, North_Italian like, it's possible, because XP thinks they were SW French like if I am not mistaken.

But Sw France makes less sense to me because it's heavily Basque in blood. Maybe Basque are close to Celts though, they didn't keep much of their original genetics anyway.

This question is rather complex so that's why I didn't include Celtic proxys.

North Italians were shifted south via imperial Roman admix and than back north via Germanic input, but they could still be close to what central Euro Celts were like, I am just not very sure about it.

Davidski said there are lots of Celtic samples that haven't been published yet. He said they are very Northern like.


No, they weren't. They were very Northern European, as you shall soon see.

Peter Shvijer often talks out of his ass, so I wouldn't take his theory seriously.


It's not up to me. There are heaps of Celtic samples waiting to be published. I don't know why it's taking so long.

As to where the samples are from this is what he said.


Heaps from England. Also from France, Italy...

So hopefully this information will be published in the not too distant future.

[Jana]

^^^^^will these samples be from Iron Age? Because we can't speak about Celts before that.

[Grace O'Malley]

^^^^^will these samples be from Iron Age? Because we can't speak about Celts before that.

I think Davidski has a very good idea of what Celts were. He has posted snippets about it before. He is on Anthrogenica and regularly posts there. At this stage now I haven't a clue who and what the Celts are anymore. :) They are as mysterious as they ever were.

I see Creoda has already mentioned this.

[Leto]

That comment about Kuban Cossacks, what I said was said actually by Coldmountains
That comment isn't wrong. He only missed the fact that there had been a massive maloros settlement in Southern and Southwestern Russia (Krasnodar, Rostov, Stavropol, Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh). It's written in Kabuzan's book (1990). Parts of Kuban were majority maloros back in the 19th century.
Arhat, please comment on this if you're reading.

[Jana]

I think Davidski has a very good idea of what Celts were. He has posted snippets about it before. He is on Anthrogenica and regularly posts there. At this stage now I haven't a clue who and what the Celts are anymore. :) They are as mysterious as they ever were.

I see Creoda has already mentioned this.

He was proved having bias before, I don't trust him completely. Ofcourse it is possible Iron Age Celts were very northern European like though, I just wouldn't expect it.
Let's wait for the samples and see, it's very interesting for sure.

[Ylla]

Ofcourse they are, Aromanians are modern day Vlachs. But this calculator measures ancient Vlach input, which means Romanized Paleo-Balkan population (mix of Illyrians-Thracians-Dacians and Romans)
At the time Slavs settled Balkans, there were no pure Paleo-Balkan people left but a mass of Roman speaking Balkanites who mixed with them, and such mix looks to be genetically close to south-central Italians.

Albanians have avoided linguistic Romanisation, but they weren't untouched genetically.

How do we know Roman genetic influence exists? Is there a study about it? As far as I know we don't share haplogroups with modern Italians.

[vbnetkhio]

Distance is high and K13 is trash in comprasion to G25


Distance: 2.1883% / 0.02188331
Target: Cossack_Kuban | ADC: 0.5x RC
50.8 Slovakian
47.2 Vepsian
2.0 Mordovian


Distance: 2.8229% / 0.02822935
Target: Cossack_Kuban | ADC: 1x RC
61.7 Russian_Tver
38.3 Mordovian

the distance is high because k13 also detects the Finnic shift. it's as good as g25, at least in this regard.
anyway this average is based on just 2 samples (in both g25 and k13), we can't judge the whole Kuban population based on that.

[Grace O'Malley]

He was proved having bias before, I don't trust him completely. Ofcourse it is possible Iron Age Celts were very northern European like though, I just wouldn't expect it.
Let's wait for the samples and see, it's very interesting for sure.

I have an open mind on the topic. I'm really hoping some of these studies come out next year.

[Jana]

How do we know Roman genetic influence exists? Is there a study about it? As far as I know we don't share haplogroups with modern Italians.

You do have minor presence of R-U106 and some J2a clades which could be Greco-Roman (also J2b1). Majority is native though.
As you know studies about SE Europe are lacking.

With ancients we have, Balkanites are better modeled when Roman samples are included, without them fit is usually poor.
Iron Age Croatia natives (Illyrians) were north Italian like, and you can't model averge Dalmatians as Slavic and Ilyrians.

Their pre-Slavic part is much more east med and southern than north Italians on average, and I don't see other explanation than imperial Roman admix.
Our region was heavily romanised after all.

[17571imre]

Hungarian averages

Distance: 0.5049% / 0.50487560
Target: Székely
45.2 Slavic
36.3 Vlach
13.3 Germanic
5.2 Turkic

Distance: 0.5819% / 0.58185778
Target: Csángó
50.9 Slavic
33.7 Vlach
7.9 Germanic
7.5 Turkic

Distance: 0.3226% / 0.32255913
Target: Hungarian_Transylvania
41.0 Slavic
34.0 Vlach
18.0 Germanic
7.0 Turkic

Distance: 0.8205% / 0.82051700
Target: Hungarian_Northern
62.5 Slavic
23.0 Vlach
14.5 Germanic

Distance: 0.1557% / 0.15574984
Target: Hungarian_Alföld
59.9 Slavic
27.5 Vlach
11.3 Germanic
1.3 Turkic

Distance: 0.0718% / 0.07177810
Target: Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
53.6 Slavic
25.1 Vlach
19.2 Germanic
1.3 Turkic
0.8 Alan

Distance: 0.0948% / 0.09477047
Target: Hungarian
55.6 Slavic
26.6 Vlach
17.0 Germanic
0.8 Turkic

[Jana]

the distance is high because k13 also detects the Finnic shift. it's as good as g25, at least in this regard.
anyway this average is based on just 2 samples (in both g25 and k13), we can't judge the whole Kuban population based on that.

I dropped Kuban Cossack average anyway. But I highly doubt they are heavily Finnic, because even Central Russians aren't, central Russians have Baltic input rather than Finnic.
Slovaks aren't pure Slavic so ofc his "model" will be forced to compensate with more northern population like Mordvins (he selected only these 2), and Mordvins are not that heavily Finnic at all but pred. Balto-Slavic.

[bained]

How is Vlach = Italian? You people don't stop amusing me :D

Distance: 2.7986% / 2.79856792
Target: BaiNed | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.0 Vlach
29.0 Slavic

Distance: 2.4093% / 2.40926377
Target: BaiNed
69.1 Vlach
28.3 Slavic
2.6 Germanic

[Jana]

How is Vlach = Italian? You people don't stop amusing me :D

Distance: 2.7986% / 2.79856792
Target: BaiNed | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.0 Vlach
29.0 Slavic

Distance: 2.4093% / 2.40926377
Target: BaiNed
69.1 Vlach
28.3 Slavic
2.6 Germanic

Mix of Paleo-Balkanites and Romans was genetically closest to modern south-central Italians, so why is that weird to you?

[Token]

From our amateurish models autosomal imperial Roman admix seems to be very significant.
Btw, which modern population would you use for Celtic proxy?

There was discussion about it on previous page, and Creoda made a very good post about it.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338307-new-K13-model-for-SE-Europeans&p=7028781&viewfull=1#post7028781
But we still aren't sure.

At the moment there is no good early Celtic proxy in my opinion, and i will explain why. According to a recent (2017) paper by Joseph F. Eska, Celtiberian may represent the most basal split from the Celtic trunk. I'm no celticist to evaluate this assertion, but so far it seems to be based on the preservation of the PIE voiceless labiovelar *kʷ and on its highly inflected relative pronouns. Thus the group responsible for introducing Celtic speech into Iberia may be a good hint as to how the earliest Celtic speakers may have looked like.

Here (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/03/celtic-probably-not-from-west.html)Davidski was able to model the Celtiberian samples from La Hoya as a two-way mixture of Bronze Age Iberii from the same area and Halberstadt_LBA. Halberstadt_LBA is contemporary to the Saalemündungsgruppe, an western peripheric region of the Lusatian culture, which in turn succeds Urnfield in Central Europe. It is closest thing to an Urnfield sample at the moment, and it is closest to modern-day northwestern Europeans. Davidski comments: "i also tried modeling Celtiberian_LaHoya as part Hallstatt_Bylany, but these samples don't overlap as well in terms of data and also produce very high standard errors".

(This is the Celtic phylogenetic family tree proposed by Eska)
https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/celtic-language-phylogenetic-family-tree.png

Hallstatt is generally thought to have introduced Celtic into Iberia, so one would think that Hallstatt would produce the best fits. But we should have in mind that both of these Hallstatt samples comes from the eastern Hallstatt zone, with one of them even showing Scythian admixture. The earliest examples of Celtic culture are found in west Austrian and Swiss Hallstatt, so these are the places to look at if we want genuine early Celtic samples. It is worth pointing out that the earliest inscriptions in a Celtic language are located in northern Italy - the language of these inscriptions (Lepontic) is very archaic (possibly the most basal split according to Schumacher), which made Peter Schrijver (a very respected celticist and germanicist) locate the Celtic homeland in Italy -, so it wouldn't be hard to visualize a Celtic movement from North Italy into western Hallstatt, and later spreading to everywhere else.

Other possible proxies for early Celts commonly mentioned are the Iron age French samples and the middle Bronze Age samples from the Lech Valley. The first are low coverage samples and too late, and the latter is too early to have been a Celtic-speaker. As Creoda pointed out, Davidski has mentioned upcoming studies dealing directly with the Celtic question, so we will only need to wait a little bit before good samples are finally released.

[Jana]

^^^^Fantastic post as usual and very educative, thanks Token! :)

[vbnetkhio]

I dropped Kuban Cossack average anyway. But I highly doubt they are heavily Finnic, because even Central Russians aren't, central Russians have Baltic input rather than Finnic.
Slovaks aren't pure Slavic so ofc his "model" will be forced to compensate with more northern population like Mordvins (he selected only these 2), and Mordvins are not that heavily Finnic at all but pred. Balto-Slavic.

the k13 2-way oracle also picks similar models for them:

[1,] "15.7 % Chuvash + 84.3 % Masurian" "2.5611"
[2,] "39.2 % East_Finnish + 60.8 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "2.5813"
[3,] "12.5 % Mari + 87.5 % Masurian" "2.8453"
[4,] "11.5 % Mari + 88.5 % Polish" "2.8937"
[5,] "94.6 % Polish + 5.4 % Selkup" "2.8971"
[6,] "5.4 % Ket + 94.6 % Polish" "2.9917"
[7,] "60.5 % Masurian + 39.5 % Russian_Kostroma" "2.9928"
[8,] "13.7 % Chuvash + 86.3 % Polish" "2.9941"
[9,] "39.8 % Finnish + 60.2 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "3.018"
[10,] "37.3 % Kargopol_Russian + 62.7 % Masurian" "3.0359"
[11,] "4.1 % Dolgan + 95.9 % Polish" "3.0427"
[12,] "3.8 % Evenki + 96.2 % Polish" "3.0676"
[13,] "26.8 % Erzya + 73.2 % Masurian" "3.0693"
[14,] "3.8 % Evens + 96.2 % Polish" "3.0791"
[15,] "96.1 % Polish + 3.9 % Yakut" "3.1299"
[16,] "41.9 % Estonian + 58.1 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "3.1744"
[17,] "74.8 % Masurian + 25.2 % RU_Pinega" "3.2616"
[18,] "3.7 % Oroqen + 96.3 % Polish" "3.3131"
[19,] "5.4 % Hakas + 94.6 % Polish" "3.3254"
[20,] "94.2 % Polish + 5.8 % Shors" "3.3388"

the Slovak average in G25 is unrepresentative, it's made from just 5 out of 15 available academic samples, lol.

but again these are just 2 samples, who might be just mixed south Russians. you know the studies have very low standards for academic samples.

[Jana]

the k13 2-way oracle also picks similar models for them:

[1,] "15.7 % Chuvash + 84.3 % Masurian" "2.5611"
[2,] "39.2 % East_Finnish + 60.8 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "2.5813"
[3,] "12.5 % Mari + 87.5 % Masurian" "2.8453"
[4,] "11.5 % Mari + 88.5 % Polish" "2.8937"
[5,] "94.6 % Polish + 5.4 % Selkup" "2.8971"
[6,] "5.4 % Ket + 94.6 % Polish" "2.9917"
[7,] "60.5 % Masurian + 39.5 % Russian_Kostroma" "2.9928"
[8,] "13.7 % Chuvash + 86.3 % Polish" "2.9941"
[9,] "39.8 % Finnish + 60.2 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "3.018"
[10,] "37.3 % Kargopol_Russian + 62.7 % Masurian" "3.0359"
[11,] "4.1 % Dolgan + 95.9 % Polish" "3.0427"
[12,] "3.8 % Evenki + 96.2 % Polish" "3.0676"
[13,] "26.8 % Erzya + 73.2 % Masurian" "3.0693"
[14,] "3.8 % Evens + 96.2 % Polish" "3.0791"
[15,] "96.1 % Polish + 3.9 % Yakut" "3.1299"
[16,] "41.9 % Estonian + 58.1 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "3.1744"
[17,] "74.8 % Masurian + 25.2 % RU_Pinega" "3.2616"
[18,] "3.7 % Oroqen + 96.3 % Polish" "3.3131"
[19,] "5.4 % Hakas + 94.6 % Polish" "3.3254"
[20,] "94.2 % Polish + 5.8 % Shors" "3.3388"

the Slovak average in G25 is unrepresentative, it's made from just 5 out of 15 available academic samples, lol.

but again these are just 2 samples, who might be just mixed south Russians. you know the studies have very low standards for academic samples.

That's why K13 for moderns is much better. :)
I included Belarusians and Russians Smolensk, Masurians as Slavic proxy too, yeah I know they have Baltic but early Slavs were probably ranging from Belarusian to Ukrainian like.
At least latest ancient samples posted by Peterski indicate that, unless they were already mixed.

Polish K13 average is also good, it's pretty eastern and "pure". Few early Slav samples get it on top of their Oracles.

[Leto]

the k13 2-way oracle also picks similar models for them:

[1,] "15.7 % Chuvash + 84.3 % Masurian" "2.5611"
[2,] "39.2 % East_Finnish + 60.8 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "2.5813"
[3,] "12.5 % Mari + 87.5 % Masurian" "2.8453"
[4,] "11.5 % Mari + 88.5 % Polish" "2.8937"
[5,] "94.6 % Polish + 5.4 % Selkup" "2.8971"
[6,] "5.4 % Ket + 94.6 % Polish" "2.9917"
[7,] "60.5 % Masurian + 39.5 % Russian_Kostroma" "2.9928"
[8,] "13.7 % Chuvash + 86.3 % Polish" "2.9941"
[9,] "39.8 % Finnish + 60.2 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "3.018"
[10,] "37.3 % Kargopol_Russian + 62.7 % Masurian" "3.0359"
[11,] "4.1 % Dolgan + 95.9 % Polish" "3.0427"
[12,] "3.8 % Evenki + 96.2 % Polish" "3.0676"
[13,] "26.8 % Erzya + 73.2 % Masurian" "3.0693"
[14,] "3.8 % Evens + 96.2 % Polish" "3.0791"
[15,] "96.1 % Polish + 3.9 % Yakut" "3.1299"
[16,] "41.9 % Estonian + 58.1 % Ukrainian_Lviv" "3.1744"
[17,] "74.8 % Masurian + 25.2 % RU_Pinega" "3.2616"
[18,] "3.7 % Oroqen + 96.3 % Polish" "3.3131"
[19,] "5.4 % Hakas + 94.6 % Polish" "3.3254"
[20,] "94.2 % Polish + 5.8 % Shors" "3.3388"

the Slovak average in G25 is unrepresentative, it's made from just 5 out of 15 available academic samples, lol.

but again these are just 2 samples, who might be just mixed south Russians. you know the studies have very low standards for academic samples.
Do you know the source of Cossack_Kuban in the updated spreadsheet? I can request its removal.

[Jana]

If you click on aggregate-NO, you can see which proxies were selected as best fit for you personally in the model.

Distance: 2.5000% / 2.50004642
Target: Stearsolina

49.4 Slavic:Ukrainian
19.5 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
14.7 Germanic:Norwegian
9.6 Alan:North_Ossetian
6.8 Slavic:Masurian

Distance: 0.6696% / 0.66964598
Target: Stears

41.4 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
28.1 Germanic:North_German
10.3 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
8.2 Alan:North_Ossetian
4.4 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
2.9 Germanic:Norwegian
2.4 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
2.3 Turkic:Tatar

[vbnetkhio]

Do you know the source of Cossack_Kuban in the updated spreadsheet? I can request its removal.

it's an average of 2 academic samples, Lukasz added it.

[Leto]

it's an average of 2 academic samples, Lukasz added it.
2 samples is indeed a joke.

- - -

A Lugansk Ukrainian (some genealogy girl)

Distance: 2.9571% / 2.95711657
Target: Danaya
88.5 Slavic
11.5 Vlach

I won't be spamming the thread with East Slavs, only this one ;)

[vbnetkhio]

2 samples is indeed a joke.

- - -

A Lugansk Ukrainian (some genealogy girl)

Distance: 2.9571% / 2.95711657
Target: Danaya
88.5 Slavic
11.5 Vlach

I won't be spamming the thread with East Slavs, only this one ;)

maybe she has some Serb ancestry? ;D

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/New_serbia_slavo_serbia.png

[Leto]

Well, she is quite Southwestern actually.

Consider this average from Ion Basescul's database

Distance: 0.6538% / 0.65378254
Target: Moldova_Ukrainian
89.4 Slavic
10.6 Vlach

Very tight fit.

[Dunai]

Distance: 0.7206% / 0.72061188
Target: Dunai
36.9 Germanic
32.7 Slavic
22.5 Vlach
7.9 Turkic

[Jana]

Well, she is quite Southwestern actually.

Consider this average from Ion Basescul's database

Distance: 0.6538% / 0.65378254
Target: Moldova_Ukrainian
89.4 Slavic
10.6 Vlach

Very tight fit.

Still very pure, they don't look like autochtonous Ukrainians from nearby border region but like more recent settlers from further deep Ukraine.

[Ion Basescul]

Albanians have avoided linguistic Romanisation, but they weren't untouched genetically.

Albanian is actually considered a partially Romanised language.

[Ion Basescul]

Still very pure, they don't look like autochtonous Ukrainians from nearby border region but like more recent settlers from further deep Ukraine.

That's the average, which obviously includes those who arrived during Soviet times and are closer to average Ukrainian and even Russian-like. Autochtonous rural ones are more Southern. Leto knows which ones, since I explained the ancestry for each sample that makes the average.

[Varda]

Albanian is actually considered a partially Romanised language.

True, and Albanian Romance element match with East Romance languages, not with Dalmatian and Istriot which belong to Italo-Dalmatian branch of Romance languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian-Romanian_linguistic_relationship

[Dušan]

Yeah, your Vlach part is more southern than is usual. Mix of Paleo-Balkanites and Romans in Balkans produced Corsican and south-central Italian (Abruzzo/Apulia, Tuscany) like population.
I remember in other calcs you would regulary score ancient Greek. Very interesting.

Well, I am not exception.
These are result of your calculator with Sardinia and Crete added. Lot of Serbs got it.

Seems that vlachs assimilated into us were more southern shifted than your central Italian samples.



Target: CTPAXOTA
Distance: 345.1850% / 3.45184991
63.0 Slavic
24.8 Sardinia
7.4 Greek_Crete
4.8 Alan

Target: lilalila1988
Distance: 119.7055% / 1.19705534
59.6 Slavic
20.8 Greek_Crete
14.2 Vlach
4.6 Sardinia
0.8 Alan

Target: Morlak
Distance: 202.2373% / 2.02237331
51.2 Slavic
15.2 Sardinia
13.6 Vlach
12.2 Greek_Crete
4.0 Germanic
3.8 Alan

Target: Dick
Distance: 428.9953% / 4.28995295
55.6 Slavic
43.6 Vlach
0.8 Germanic

Target: vbn
Distance: 219.2340% / 2.19233970
62.0 Slavic
22.4 Sardinia
15.6 Greek_Crete

Target: Decius
Distance: 209.9724% / 2.09972380
56.4 Slavic
24.6 Sardinia
17.6 Alan
1.4 Vlach

Target: Ford
Distance: 197.3999% / 1.97399873
59.6 Slavic
27.8 Vlach
9.4 Sardinia
3.2 Germanic

Target: MojeIme
Distance: 209.2682% / 2.09268157
43.8 Vlach
38.0 Slavic
18.2 Germanic

Target: Commonsense
Distance: 232.0034% / 2.32003377
50.2 Slavic
14.6 Sardinia
13.0 Vlach
8.4 Germanic
7.8 Alan
6.0 Greek_Crete

Target: Dušan
Distance: 183.3742% / 1.83374245
66.2 Slavic
20.2 Sardinia
10.2 Greek_Crete
3.4 Alan

Target: Duric
Distance: 135.3475% / 1.35347546
60.8 Slavic
20.6 Vlach
9.6 Germanic
7.2 Sardinia
1.8 Alan

Target: Kesic
Distance: 58.5191% / 0.58519129
48.2 Slavic
43.6 Vlach
5.2 Germanic
3.0 Sardinia

Target: Dukic
Distance: 284.2831% / 2.84283094
51.2 Slavic
30.0 Greek_Crete
11.8 Sardinia
7.0 Vlach

Target: Ivancevic
Distance: 280.1601% / 2.80160092
48.6 Slavic
31.2 Vlach
17.2 Sardinia
2.0 Germanic
1.0 Alan

Target: Vukojevic
Distance: 131.8001% / 1.31800066
54.6 Slavic
36.0 Vlach
8.0 Germanic
1.4 Sardinia

Target: Zeljkovic
Distance: 225.4200% / 2.25420010
48.8 Slavic
36.2 Greek_Crete
15.0 Sardinia

Target: Bekic
Distance: 131.1643% / 1.31164277
54.4 Slavic
24.0 Vlach
19.6 Greek_Crete
2.0 Sardinia

Target: Bogdanovic
Distance: 131.2857% / 1.31285707
62.6 Slavic
15.6 Sardinia
13.0 Greek_Crete
8.8 Alan

Target: Smiljanic
Distance: 299.0884% / 2.99088441
57.2 Slavic
22.6 Greek_Crete
20.2 Sardinia

Target: Cupurdija
Distance: 136.5540% / 1.36553958
61.0 Slavic
23.0 Sardinia
8.6 Alan
7.4 Greek_Crete

Target: Hinic
Distance: 421.2436% / 4.21243626
60.0 Slavic
25.4 Greek_Crete
14.6 Sardinia

Target: AyeDad
Distance: 204.3475% / 2.04347506
60.8 Slavic
19.6 Vlach
10.6 Greek_Crete
9.0 Sardinia

Target: KK
Distance: 98.2212% / 0.98221164
47.2 Slavic
29.4 Vlach
11.0 Greek_Crete
6.2 Sardinia
5.2 Germanic
1.0 Turkic

Target: Milicevic
Distance: 477.9412% / 4.77941228
56.4 Vlach
43.6 Slavic

Target: Sova
Distance: 165.6719% / 1.65671888
55.6 Slavic
13.0 Greek_Crete
12.8 Sardinia
10.6 Vlach
4.2 Alan
3.8 Germanic

Target: Nebojsa
Distance: 167.6304% / 1.67630361
48.6 Vlach
46.0 Slavic
3.2 Germanic
2.2 Sardinia

Target: Derventa
Distance: 194.3834% / 1.94383391
47.2 Slavic
35.0 Vlach
11.0 Germanic
3.8 Turkic
3.0 Sardinia

Target: HungryLion
Distance: 159.1183% / 1.59118258
53.8 Slavic
39.4 Vlach
6.2 Sardinia
0.6 Germanic

Target: Luka
Distance: 153.6357% / 1.53635700
59.2 Slavic
18.2 Sardinia
8.4 Alan
7.4 Germanic
6.8 Vlach

Target: Sremac
Distance: 346.9994% / 3.46999391
52.6 Slavic
25.0 Greek_Crete
22.4 Vlach

Target: SremDad
Distance: 402.3176% / 4.02317559
52.0 Slavic
41.0 Greek_Crete
4.6 Sardinia
2.4 Vlach

Target: SremMom
Distance: 205.6185% / 2.05618525
48.0 Slavic
33.6 Vlach
13.0 Greek_Crete
5.4 Sardinia

Target: Milos
Distance: 155.0096% / 1.55009575
49.0 Slavic
25.4 Greek_Crete
16.2 Vlach
9.4 Sardinia

Target: Atlantishe
Distance: 92.5504% / 0.92550365
62.2 Slavic
21.6 Vlach
7.2 Sardinia
6.2 Alan
2.8 Germanic

Target: HL-Drugar
Distance: 113.2090% / 1.13209033
57.0 Slavic
31.6 Vlach
5.4 Greek_Crete
2.4 Sardinia
2.2 Turkic
1.4 Germanic

Target: Simo
Distance: 107.8866% / 1.07886595
46.2 Slavic
37.0 Vlach
8.8 Sardinia
3.6 Germanic
2.6 Alan
1.8 Turkic

Target: Marigold
Distance: 133.3991% / 1.33399146
57.6 Slavic
15.2 Greek_Crete
14.6 Sardinia
7.4 Vlach
2.8 Turkic
2.4 Alan

Target: Milenko
Distance: 178.6620% / 1.78661995
54.8 Slavic
21.4 Greek_Crete
21.0 Sardinia
2.8 Alan

Target: Terminator98
Distance: 460.4283% / 4.60428315
56.2 Slavic
30.2 Greek_Crete
13.6 Sardinia

[Ylla]

You do have minor presence of R-U106 and some J2a clades which could be Greco-Roman (also J2b1). Majority is native though.
As you know studies about SE Europe are lacking.

With ancients we have, Balkanites are better modeled when Roman samples are included, without them fit is usually poor.
Iron Age Croatia natives (Illyrians) were north Italian like, and you can't model averge Dalmatians as Slavic and Ilyrians.

Their pre-Slavic part is much more east med and southern than north Italians on average, and I don't see other explanation than imperial Roman admix.
Our region was heavily romanised after all.

U106 is barely existent and I'm pretty sure J2a is Hellenic and spread with Greek migration. As you said, data is lacking so we can't come to conclusions. I would rather wait for professional studies because I don't like filling in gaps of knowledge. I'm excited to see what they find.

[Jana]

Well, I am not exception.
These are result of your calculator with Sardinia and Crete added. Lot of Serbs got it.

Seems that vlachs assimilated into us were more southern shifted than your central Italian samples.

Abruzzo and Apulia are southern, not central Italians, just not MENA shifted like some Sicilians and Calabrians.
It's actually your compatriot Vbn who came to conclusion Vlachs were Corsican and Apulian like, and I kind of agreed with him.

[Jana]

U106 is barely existent and I'm pretty sure J2a is Hellenic and spread with Greek migration. As you said, data is lacking so we can't come to conclusions. I would rather wait for professional studies because I don't like filling in gaps of knowledge. I'm excited to see what they find.

South Italy is full of J2a because of their Hellenic origins and Romans who settled Balkans were very much southern.
J2b1 which is more common in south Slavs but also present in Albanians is clear Roman marker that came from Syria.

You can wait for professional studies, we all do, but fact is Paleo-Balkan samples we have so far don't fit well with modern people pre-Slavic part here and we can't be modeled that well with them.
So far we saw Romans left significant genetic input in Iberia and France, highly doubtful Balkans is any different since even your language has Latin substratum and you were only ones that weren't Romanized.

[Leto]

Isn't J2a West Asian/Middle Eastern and J2b more European? For example in Iran it's almost exclusively J2a.

[Jana]

Isn't J2a West Asian/Middle Eastern and J2b more European? For example in Iran it's almost exclusively J2a.

J2a is more Pan-Med and west Asian (Caucasus to Iran). J2b has different route, it's spread from Balkans to Volga-Ural region to northern India.
Even though I think India has J2a too.

J2a in European context is broadly Greco-Roman (but that's just simplyfing it, there are other clades), while J2b is split into J2b2 (native Illyrian branch peaking in Albanians) and J2b1, much more minor clade that peaks in Serbs actually, and it has Roman origin from near east.

[Ylla]

Paleo-Balkan samples we have so far don't fit well with modern people pre-Slavic part
Exactly, what we have so far, you said yourself samples are lacking. Why do we have to assume it's Roman input rather than a Roman-like native Balkan population that is yet to be discovered?
There was a calc that modelled us something like 40-50% Roman which is ridiculous.

[vbnetkhio]

Abruzzo and Apulia are southern, not central Italians, just not MENA shifted like some Sicilians and Calabrians.
It's actually your compatriot Vbn who came to conclusion Vlachs were Corsican and Apulian like, and I kind of agreed with him.

no, paleo-Balkanites were Corsican-like, and Vlachs were Apulian/Molise,etc-like

[Lemminkäinen]

Distance: 5.5435% / 5.54346207
Target: Mm | ADC: 0.25x RC
69.3 Slavic
27.4 Germanic
3.3 Turkic

Distance: 5.5435% / 5.54346207
Target: Mm | ADC: 0.25x RC
69.3 Slavic:Belorussian
27.4 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
3.3 Turkic:Bashkir

[Leto]

These two South Slavic gods

Distance: 1.4236% / 1.42362829
Target: Max_soldo(croat)
72.1 Slavic
27.9 Vlach

Distance: 1.9539% / 1.95388686
Target: Vlatko_vukovic(bosniak)
70.7 Slavic
29.1 Vlach
0.2 Alan

[Varda]

These two South Slavic gods

Distance: 1.4236% / 1.42362829
Target: Max_soldo(croat)
72.1 Slavic
27.9 Vlach

Distance: 1.9539% / 1.95388686
Target: Vlatko_vukovic(bosniak)
70.7 Slavic
29.1 Vlach
0.2 Alan

Can you put for this Serb with high Baltic score https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?318112-High-quot-Baltic-quot-Serb

[calxpal]

My grandmas results on this calc

Target: gran
Distance: 108.3562% / 1.08356241
52.4 Slavic:Belorussian
15.6 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
13.8 Turkic:Tatar
13.2 Germanic:North_German
3.8 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
1.2 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo

Target: gran
Distance: 108.3562% / 1.08356241
52.4 Slavic
20.6 Vlach
13.8 Turkic
13.2 Germanic

[Leto]

My grandmas results on this calc

Target: gran
Distance: 108.3562% / 1.08356241
52.4 Slavic:Belorussian
15.6 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
13.8 Turkic:Tatar
13.2 Germanic:North_German
3.8 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
1.2 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo

Target: gran
Distance: 108.3562% / 1.08356241
52.4 Slavic
20.6 Vlach
13.8 Turkic
13.2 Germanic
Try running without Tatar. I told Feiichy that it's better off deleted.

[Leto]

Can you put for this Serb with high Baltic score https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?318112-High-quot-Baltic-quot-Serb
Distance: 2.8857% / 2.88568524
Target: Šabac
74.3 Slavic
24.2 Vlach
1.5 Alan

The distance is a bit too big but otherwise super Slavic.

[Dušan]

Distance: 2.8857% / 2.88568524
Target: Šabac
74.3 Slavic
24.2 Vlach
1.5 Alan

The distance is a bit too big but otherwise super Slavic.

Closer distance with Sardinian and Cretan sample.

Target: Šabac
Distance: 151.9888% / 1.51988788
73.0 Slavic
14.0 Sardinia
11.6 Greek_Crete
1.4 Alan



We now can see what our non-Slavic input was look like.

[Jana]

Exactly, what we have so far, you said yourself samples are lacking. Why do we have to assume it's Roman input rather than a Roman-like native Balkan population that is yet to be discovered?
There was a calc that modelled us something like 40-50% Roman which is ridiculous.

Why are you agressive towards me? I've always been polite towards you.
Tame your tone a bit, otherwise you won't be getting a reply.

[Jana]

no, paleo-Balkanites were Corsican-like, and Vlachs were Apulian/Molise,etc-like

Yeah, not Cretan like like Dušan would want. That's too MENA. Not to mention some Serbs like Terminator have Sephardic admix so no wonder his pre-Slavic will be very southern.
Very hard to believe Vlachs were Cretan like, that's too much Levantine shifted.

In case of Serbs, maybe you have Greek medieval input that shift you south.

[Dušan]

Yeah, not Cretan like like Dušan would want. That's too MENA. Not to mention some Serbs like Terminator have Sephardic admix so no wonder his pre-Slavic will be very southern.
Very hard to believe Vlachs were Cretan like, that's too much Levantine shifted.

In case of Serbs, maybe you have Greek medieval input that shift you south.

Partly Cretan-like, partly Sardinian-like.

If not, why do we get so very close distances???

[Jana]

Partly Cretan-like, partly Sardinian-like.

If not, why do we get so very close distances???

How do you explain going from north Italian like (Illyrians, relevant for western Serbs) to Cretan and Sardinian like (who are closest to neolithic farmer)?
That's too extreme.

Would require near complete genocide of natives and replacement with Imperial Romans and we know it didn't happen since lot of native hgs survived.

[Jana]

And Serb average get distance under 1 with this model, so yeah.

[Dušan]

How do you explain going from north Italian like (Illyrians, relevant for western Serbs) to Cretan and Sardinian like (who are closest to neolithic farmer)?
That's too extreme.

Would require near complete genocide of natives and replacement with Imperial Romans and we know it didn't happen since lot of native hgs survived.

The question is: Why do we got very close distance on calculator combining Slavic component with Sardinian and Cretan input???

[Jana]

The question is: Why do we got very close distance on calculator combining Slavic component with Sardinian and Cretan input???

So what? You aren't measure for all Serbs, Serb average gets fantastic distance here and average is much more relevant than individual samples.
There were Greeks and Jews in the Balkans, you can't know if they didn't mix with your ancestors.

I see some Dalmatian Croats getting very southern pre-Slavic part like you (Cypriot like),it doesn't look very Vlach if you ask me.

[Dušan]

So what? You aren't measure for all Serbs, Serb average gets fantastic distance here and average is much more relevant than individual samples.
There were Greeks and Jews in the Balkans, you can't know if they didn't mix with your ancestors.

I see some Dalmatian Croats getting very southern pre-Slavic part like you (Cypriot like),it doesn't look that very if you ask me.

I already post 40 samples of Serbs, and most of them got some Sardinian like or Cretan like input as pre-Slavic component in your calculator.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338307-new-K13-model-for-SE-Europeans&p=7029446&viewfull=1#post7029446

[Dušan]

And Serb average get distance under 1 with this model, so yeah.

Even closer distance

Target: Serb
Distance: 78.9248% / 0.78924835
55.4 Slavic
29.0 Vlach
6.8 Greek_Crete
6.4 Sardinia
2.4 Germanic

[Dušan]

double

[catgeorge]

Added Sardinia and Crete


Distance: 1.2965% / 1.29645560
Target: Sarakatsani
41.0 Vlach
30.2 Greek_Crete
14.4 Germanic
10.2 Slavic
2.3 Sardinia
1.9 Alan

[Jana]

I already post 40 samples of Serbs, and most of them got some Sardinian like or Cretan like input as pre-Slavic component in your calculator.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338307-new-K13-model-for-SE-Europeans&p=7029446&viewfull=1#post7029446

Let's hear what Vbn thinks about it. I will add Molisse for a start, and will add Sardinia/Crete if he thinks they are good proxy for Vlachs.
Kaspias told me in his models Vlach like input is closest to Abruzzo and Apulia btw.

[Jana]

--

[Blemoir]

Distance: 6.8077% / 6.80769369
Target: blemoir
87.7 Vlach
9.9 Germanic
2.4 Turkic

Distance to: blemoir
7.36339596 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
8.21451155 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
14.73902982 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
15.90832486 Vlach:IT_Puglia
16.23711797 Vlach:IT_Apulia
35.13493561 Germanic:North_German
35.68936816 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
36.12136072 Germanic:Dutch_North
38.87032158 Germanic:Denmark
39.33597082 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
39.41772951 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
39.45372859 Germanic:Norwegian
40.08248994 Slavic:Ukrainian
40.90015281 Turkic:Tatar
42.32851285 Slavic:Masurian
42.88865584 Slavic:Polish
44.19835970 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
44.75230609 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
45.85718373 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
46.36400328 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
46.65992392 Slavic:Belorussian
47.44959431 Turkic:Bashkir
51.59212731 Alan:Ossetian
52.46677997 Alan:North_Ossetian

[paradox]

Regarding the Italian populations on Vahaduo, Puglia and Apulia is the same region, Apulia is the English name.
Was one of these supposed to be removed?

[Dušan]

Let's hear what Vbn thinks about it. .

With your non-Slavic samples

Target: vbn
Distance: 526.2596% / 5.26259632
56.4 Slavic
43.6 Vlach


With my non-Slavic samples

Target: vbn
Distance: 219.2340% / 2.19233970
62.0 Slavic
22.4 Sardinia
15.6 Greek_Crete

[Jana]

With your non-Slavic samples

Target: vbn
Distance: 526.2596% / 5.26259632
56.4 Slavic
43.6 Vlach


With my non-Slavic samples

Target: vbn
Distance: 219.2340% / 2.19233970
62.0 Slavic
22.4 Sardinia
15.6 Greek_Crete

So what? My fit is poorer as well.
You too much care to find models to suit you personally.

I don't care for that but to recreate reality and what will fit majority of people.

I simply don't see absolutely any proof or reason why would Romanized Illyrio-Thracians be almost mena and neolithic like genetically, sorry.
south Italian regions we have here are already pretty damn southern.

[Jana]

Regarding the Italian populations on Vahaduo, Puglia and Apulia is the same region, Apulia is the English name.
Was one of these supposed to be removed?

yeah, but they are still there so I included both.

[Grace O'Malley]

Just trying this even though it's not suitable for me as I'm fully Northwestern Euro so no surprise in what I get.

Target: Grace
Distance: 335.7003% / 3.35700303
77.2 Germanic:Norwegian
20.8 Germanic:Dutch_North
2.0 Alan:Ossetian

Distance to: Grace
3.82745346 Germanic:Norwegian
4.07806327 Germanic:Dutch_North
4.45470538 Germanic:Denmark
4.68362039 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
5.03711227 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
5.93609299 Germanic:North_German
28.13017064 Slavic:Masurian
29.42604119 Slavic:Polish
30.48471584 Slavic:Ukrainian
33.12645469 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
33.24889171 Slavic:Belorussian
34.19770314 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
34.29269893 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
37.94674953 Turkic:Tatar
38.35216422 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
41.78382342 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
44.90527475 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
46.70684853 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
47.84228569 Vlach:IT_Puglia
48.49244580 Vlach:IT_Apulia
48.50664594 Turkic:Bashkir
56.73114753 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
64.47132774 Alan:North_Ossetian
64.61271624 Alan:Ossetian

I still think it is a good calculator though because I basically just get Northwestern Euro with trace amount of things like Ossetian or other Caucasus populations.

[Dušan]

So what? My fit is poorer as well.
You too much care to find models to suit you personally.

I don't care for that but to recreate reality and what will fit majority of people.

I simply don't see absolutely any proof or reason why would Romanized Illyrio-Thracians be almost mena and neolithic like genetically, sorry.
south Italian regions we have here are already pretty damn southern.

You have prejudices about that pre-Slavic Balkan population.

I am open minded and want to find closest distance that fit us the best.
If it was too southern, then it was too southern. Deal with it.

[TheMaestro]

Pretty balanced, who are Alans, I want to be part of the hood.
I still think the calc is bad XD

Distance: 2.8706% / 2.87060536
Target: Maestro
47.6 Slavic
47.0 Vlach
5.4 Alan

[Jana]

You have prejudices about that pre-Slavic Balkan population.

I am open minded and want to find closest distance that fit us the best.
If it was too southern, then it was too southern. Deal with it.

Proof?
Or is it just your wisful thinking?

Yeah, more like it.
I will gladly add even Cypriots and Lebanese if we get a hint Vlachs could gave been like that.

And I repeat for thousand time, Serb average gets outstanding distance under 1. Deal with that.

To me it looks some SE Euros have extra southern pull which is younger than Romanized Balkanites. Byzantine Greeks, Jews, or something third take your pick.

[Varda]

Closer distance with Sardinian and Cretan sample.

Target: Šabac
Distance: 151.9888% / 1.51988788
73.0 Slavic
14.0 Sardinia
11.6 Greek_Crete
1.4 Alan



We now can see what our non-Slavic input was look like.

Nice.

Can you put for this woman, I found her K13 recently https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?320262-South-Slavic-amp-neighbours-gedmatch-results-vol-2&p=7030625&viewfull=1#post7030625

[Jana]

Distance: 2.0726% / 2.07257284
Target: Stearsolina_Father

60.8 Slavic
28.8 Vlach
9.1 Germanic
1.3 Alan


Distance: 2.0726% / 2.07257284
Target: Stearsolina_Father

60.8 Slavic:Ukrainian
14.3 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
10.8 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
9.1 Germanic:Norwegian
3.7 Vlach:IT_Apulia
1.3 Alan:North_Ossetian

[Ion Basescul]

So what? My fit is poorer as well.
You too much care to find models to suit you personally.

I don't care for that but to recreate reality and what will fit majority of people.

I simply don't see absolutely any proof or reason why would Romanized Illyrio-Thracians be almost mena and neolithic like genetically, sorry.
south Italian regions we have here are already pretty damn southern.

Not Romanised locals, but if you remember the Roman paper, a lot of them in Italy had genetic profiles typical of modern day Lebanese, Syrians and I think Armenians too. Some of the Roman legionnaires in the Balkans could have been like that, and maybe that would explain the elevated J2 presence in Romanians, Aromanians and Greeks.

[Ford]

Distance: 2.0513% / 2.05133711
Target: Ford
60.5 Slavic
39.5 Vlach

[Jana]

Not Romanised locals, but if you remember the Roman paper, a lot of them in Italy had genetic profiles typical of modern day Lebanese, Syrians and I think Armenians too. Some of the Roman legionnaires in the Balkans could have been like that, and maybe that would explain the elevated J2 presence in Romanians, Aromanians and Greeks.

Sure, I think Romans in the Balkans could have been Cypriot or Levantine like but they after mixing with natives who were on average Corsican like Vbn predicts mix won't end up so mena like.
Especially in my region for example when Iron Age locals were north Italian like. You could expect shift south to Abruzzo or Puglia, but Crete and Sardinia?? Simply looks far too extreme difference.

Eastern Balkans has additional Anatolian input in places like Bulgaria, from Byzantine and Armenian settlers. That's why you can't model Bulgarians like simple Slavic-Thracian mix for example.

[vbnetkhio]

i think the problem with this model is that Sardinians act as neolithic Balkanians, and Slavs probably cover both actual Slavic admixture and pre-Slavic indo-European (Yamnaya, Corded etc.)
So it probably overestimates the Slavic.
I got a similar false model in the original gedmatch k13 oracle, something like 75% Ukrainian + 25% Sardinian.

I hope that's not too confusing.
and Cretans represent late Roman influence,that's ok.

in my model distances were also low for everybody. i used:

average of a couple of paleo-Balkan samples - Corsican-like, Corsicans are more IE than Sardinians, i think that's more realistic. i don't think the average paleo-Balkanian was Sardinian-like.
average of Imperial romans - Dodecanese-like (not too different from Crete)

[Jana]

i think the problem with this model is that Sardinians act as neolithic Balkanians, and Slavs probably cover both actual Slavic admixture and pre-Slavic indo-European (Yamnaya, Corded etc.)
So it probably overestimates the Slavic.
I got a similar false model in the original gedmatch k13 oracle, something like 75% Ukrainian + 25% Sardinian.

I hope that's not too confusing.
and Cretans represent late Roman influence,that's ok.

in my model distances were also low for everybody. i used:

average of a couple of paleo-Balkan samples - Corsican-like, Corsicans are more IE than Sardinians, i think that's more realistic. i don't think the average paleo-Balkanian was Sardinian-like.
average of Imperial romans - Dodecanese-like (not too different from Crete)

I understand your point, yes. And I agree people who get modeled as Slavic + Sardinian or Slavic + Cypriot get unrealistically inflated Slavic. That's not my case, but I saw couple od Dalmatians and Herzegovians like that.
So we could reach a compromise - I will add Crete and Dodecanese too, but not Sardinia.

And I think I will separate Balkan from Roman in new version.

[Jana]

Added Greek Islanders and lot of other similar regions of south and central Italy. Now Vlach covers wide range from Tuscan to Dodecanese, hope you are satisfied :)


Slavic:Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44 ,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Germanic:Denmark,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52, 0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Germanic:Dutch_North,49.31,26.39,10.94,5.26,3.09,0 .73,0.88,0.38,0.64,0.71,0.50,0.50,0.60
Vlach:IT_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61, 0.18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Vlach:IT_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61, 0.12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Vlach:IT_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79, 0.22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Vlach:IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95, 0.28,0.05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
Slavic:Masurian,31.66,44.71,11.83,4.12,2.82,1.20,0 .89,0.20,1.14,0.39,0.29,0.17,0.58
Germanic:North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24, 0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17
Alan:North_Ossetian,6.39,11.93,7.27,48.78,14.62,1. 38,1.74,2.27,4.59,0.62,0.30,0.06,0.05
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Germanic:Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43 ,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Alan:Ossetian,7.84,7.30,9.08,48.98,14.05,1.99,2.74 ,2.92,4.19,0.56,0.21,0.13,0.01
Slavic:Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.9 6,0.11,0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Slavic:Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83 ,1.69,1.38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Slavic:Southwest_Russian,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.2 6,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Germanic:Sweden_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.8 8,0.62,0.93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Turkic:Tatar,18.88,34.62,5.85,11.66,3.85,0.90,2.68 ,3.12,15.56,2.00,0.28,0.13,0.46
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
Slavic:Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16, 1.09,0.91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78,5. 54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Vlach:FrenchCorsica,26.74,9.01,28.48,6.84,23.99,3. 65,0.18,0.18,0.21,0.17,0.45,0.1,0
Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen,7.16,12.65,3.08,22.29,7.92,0 .41,8.31,10.56,24.77,1.32,0.69,0.23,0.63
Turkic:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3. 45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27
Vlach:IT_Molise,20.11,8.57,21.61,14.07,29.62,4.58, 0.02,0.47,0,0.38,0.25,0.16,0.16
Vlach:Greek_Dodecanese,12.59,6.27,20.44,18.63,33.7 5,6.15,0.72,0.46,0.28,0.21,0.24,0.17,0.09
Vlach:Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.1 2,0.27,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16
Vlach:IT_Marche,25.48,9.49,23.15,11.52,25.53,3.8,0 .14,0.14,0.12,0.15,0.12,0.18,0.18
Vlach:IT_Umbria,26.21,9.45,23.31,11.11,24.58,3.76, 0.28,0.17,0,0.16,0.84,0.13,0
Vlach:IT_Lazio,25.25,9.35,24.03,11.35,25.14,3.6,0. 33,0.2,0.12,0.25,0.18,0.14,0.06
Vlach:IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50 ,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:IT_Basilicata,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.55,28.73,5 .5,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33

[Jana]

My parents with the update

Distance: 1.3044% / 1.30438751
Target: Stearsolina_Mom

56.8 Slavic
26.5 Vlach
9.3 Alan
7.4 Germanic

Distance: 1.3044% / 1.30439061
Target: Stearsolina_Mom

31.0 Slavic: Polish
26.5 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
17.9 Slavic:Masurian
9.3 Alan:Ossetian
7.8 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
7.5 Germanic:North_German

Distance: 1.9831% / 1.98305647
Target: Stearsolina_Dad

61.5 Slavic
30.3 Vlach
7.6 Germanic
0.6 Alan

Distance: 1.9832% / 1.98318851
Target: Stearsolina_Dad

61.5 Slavic:Ukrainian
21.2 Vlach:IT_Lazio
9.1 Vlach:IT_Molise
7.7 Germanic:Norwegian
0.5 Alan:North_Ossetian

My mother results translate to gedmatch rather poorly. She ends up getting similar Germanic than my fully south slavic dad. I don't know why is that, maybe because she has something extra southern (I still don't know what it is, could be Jew, Armenian or Greek). She's also part Serb. However on FTDNA her Germanic side shows very well, she gets 25% NW Euro there and my dad none.

But she also gets lot of Italian there which could be proxy for east med/west asian input which pull her south on gedmatch and cancel her germanic admix so it isn't very visible.

[Jana]

Croatian average with the update

Distance: 0.5822% / 0.58223379
Target: Croat

62.5 Slavic
33.1 Vlach
4.4 Germanic

Distance: 0.5830% / 0.58295536
Target: Croat

22.5 Slavic:Ukrainian
21.6 Vlach:IT_Marche
20.2 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
12.1 Slavic: Polish
11.2 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
7.7 Slavic:Belorussian
4.5 Germanic:Norwegian
0.2 Vlach:IT_Umbria

[Jana]

Bulgarians get much better fit now

Distance: 0.4943% / 0.49434515
Target: Bulgarian

56.3 Vlach
42.3 Slavic
1.4 Alan

for them adding Crete helped a lot.


Distance: 0.4969% / 0.49690168
Target: Bulgarian

38.6 Slavic:Ukrainian
36.5 Vlach:Greek_Crete
10.1 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
9.7 Vlach:IT_Lazio
3.3 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
1.5 Alan:North_Ossetian
0.3 Slavic:Southwest_Russian

[Jana]

Distance: 0.4893% / 0.48933764
Target: Bosniak

63.3 Slavic
36.7 Vlach

Distance: 0.4954% / 0.49539079
Target: Bosniak

30.7 Slavic:Ukrainian
28.2 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
18.0 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
13.4 Vlach:Greek_Crete
5.0 Vlach:IT_Molise
3.3 Slavic:Belorussian
1.4 Slavic: Polish

Distance: 0.9598% / 0.95983602
Target: Macedonian

65.3 Vlach
34.7 Slavic

Distance: 0.9570% / 0.95697247
Target: Macedonian

36.6 Vlach:Greek_Crete
30.6 Slavic:Ukrainian
26.3 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
4.4 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
1.8 Vlach:IT_Molise
0.3 Vlach:IT_Lazio

Distance: 0.7051% / 0.70506099
Target: Montenegrin

54.9 Vlach
43.8 Slavic
1.3 Alan


Distance: 0.7050% / 0.70503184
Target: Montenegrin

27.5 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
24.3 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
22.5 Vlach:IT_Apulia
15.9 Slavic:Ukrainian
7.6 Vlach:IT_Marche
1.3 Alan:North_Ossetian
0.5 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
0.4 Vlach:Greek_Crete

Distance: 0.9019% / 0.90191735
Target: Pomak

56.1 Vlach
42.8 Slavic
1.1 Alan

Distance: 0.9019% / 0.90191735
Target: Pomak

56.1 Vlach:Greek_Crete
36.1 Slavic:Ukrainian
6.7 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
1.1 Alan:North_Ossetian

Distance: 0.7986% / 0.79862899
Target: Serb

56.8 Slavic
43.2 Vlach

Distance: 0.7985% / 0.79854814
Target: Serb

44.6 Slavic:Ukrainian
17.7 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
17.6 Vlach:Greek_Crete
12.2 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
7.9 Vlach:IT_Lazio

Distance: 0.8553% / 0.85526248
Target: Slovenian

61.4 Slavic
24.4 Vlach
14.2 Germanic


Distance: 0.8550% / 0.85502843
Target: Slovenian

27.3 Slavic:Ukrainian
21.6 Slavic: Polish
15.0 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
13.7 Germanic: Denmark
9.4 Vlach:IT_Marche
8.2 Slavic:Belorussian
4.2 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
0.6 Germanic:Norwegian

Distance: 1.8209% / 1.82087128
Target: Torbesh

77.2 Vlach
22.8 Slavic


Distance: 1.8209% / 1.82087128
Target: Torbesh

39.2 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
38.0 Vlach:Greek_Crete
22.8 Slavic:Ukrainian

[Kaspias]

Target: Kaspias
Distance: 153.0714% / 1.53071365
51.6 Vlach
25.0 Slavic
23.4 Turkic



Target: Kaspias_dad
Distance: 303.2295% / 3.03229548
59.6 Vlach
35.6 Turkic
4.8 Germanic


Target: Kaspias_mom_phased
Distance: 383.1054% / 3.83105371
50.0 Vlach
45.0 Slavic
5.0 Turkic

[Jana]

Distance: 0.0990% / 0.09895873
Target: Hungarian

55.9 Slavic
27.8 Vlach
15.4 Germanic
0.9 Turkic

Distance: 0.0973% / 0.09733907
Target: Hungarian

32.1 Slavic:Ukrainian
15.6 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
11.9 Vlach:IT_Lazio
10.7 Germanic: Denmark
6.9 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
6.8 Slavic:Belorussian
5.0 Vlach:IT_Umbria
4.0 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
3.3 Germanic: Dutch_North
1.4 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
1.4 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
0.8 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
0.1 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar

Distance: 0.5011% / 0.50113302
Target: Székely

45.1 Slavic
38.0 Vlach
11.7 Germanic
5.2 Turkic

Distance: 0.4991% / 0.49907155
Target: Székely

23.2 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
21.8 Slavic:Ukrainian
12.0 Germanic: Denmark
11.9 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
8.9 Vlach:IT_Marche
7.3 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
6.6 Vlach:IT_Lazio
4.3 Turkic:Bashkir
3.0 Vlach:IT_Molise
0.9 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
0.1 Germanic:Dutch_North

Distance: 0.3892% / 0.38915681
Target: Romanian

50.2 Vlach
48.0 Slavic
1.1 Alan
0.7 Turkic

Distance: 0.3920% / 0.39196443
Target: Romanian

47.6 Slavic:Ukrainian
24.7 Vlach:Greek_Crete
18.4 Vlach:IT_Lazio
6.6 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
1.2 Turkic:Tatar
1.0 Alan:North_Ossetian
0.4 Vlach:IT_Molise
0.1 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar

Distance: 0.2461% / 0.24613271
Target: Moldovan

58.5 Slavic
37.2 Vlach
2.4 Turkic
1.9 Alan

Distance: 0.2467% / 0.24665455
Target: Moldovan

47.2 Slavic:Ukrainian
24.9 Vlach:Greek_Crete
12.3 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
9.3 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
2.3 Turkic:Tatar
2.0 Alan:North_Ossetian
2.0 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod

Crazy tight fits with the update, never had better.

[CommonSense]

Distance: 2.5146% / 2.51462244
Target: CommonSense
54.6 Slavic
35.1 Vlach
10.3 Alan

[Jana]

Distance: 2.5146% / 2.51462244
Target: CommonSense
54.6 Slavic
35.1 Vlach
10.3 Alan

your fit like mine still not extremely tight, but good one.

[CommonSense]

your fit like mine still not extremely tight, but good one.

I think you should add some east med population like Cypriots. Pretty sure that kind of ancestry was prominent here too during the Roman era.

[Dušan]

Added Greek Islanders and lot of other similar regions of south and central Italy. Now Vlach covers wide range from Tuscan to Dodecanese, hope you are satisfied :)


Slavic:Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44 ,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Germanic:Denmark,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52, 0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Germanic:Dutch_North,49.31,26.39,10.94,5.26,3.09,0 .73,0.88,0.38,0.64,0.71,0.50,0.50,0.60
Vlach:IT_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61, 0.18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Vlach:IT_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61, 0.12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Vlach:IT_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79, 0.22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Vlach:IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95, 0.28,0.05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
Slavic:Masurian,31.66,44.71,11.83,4.12,2.82,1.20,0 .89,0.20,1.14,0.39,0.29,0.17,0.58
Germanic:North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24, 0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17
Alan:North_Ossetian,6.39,11.93,7.27,48.78,14.62,1. 38,1.74,2.27,4.59,0.62,0.30,0.06,0.05
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Germanic:Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43 ,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Alan:Ossetian,7.84,7.30,9.08,48.98,14.05,1.99,2.74 ,2.92,4.19,0.56,0.21,0.13,0.01
Slavic:Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.9 6,0.11,0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Slavic:Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83 ,1.69,1.38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Slavic:Southwest_Russian,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.2 6,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Germanic:Sweden_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.8 8,0.62,0.93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Turkic:Tatar,18.88,34.62,5.85,11.66,3.85,0.90,2.68 ,3.12,15.56,2.00,0.28,0.13,0.46
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
Slavic:Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16, 1.09,0.91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78,5. 54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Vlach:FrenchCorsica,26.74,9.01,28.48,6.84,23.99,3. 65,0.18,0.18,0.21,0.17,0.45,0.1,0
Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen,7.16,12.65,3.08,22.29,7.92,0 .41,8.31,10.56,24.77,1.32,0.69,0.23,0.63
Turkic:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3. 45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27
Vlach:IT_Molise,20.11,8.57,21.61,14.07,29.62,4.58, 0.02,0.47,0,0.38,0.25,0.16,0.16
Vlach:Greek_Dodecanese,12.59,6.27,20.44,18.63,33.7 5,6.15,0.72,0.46,0.28,0.21,0.24,0.17,0.09
Vlach:Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.1 2,0.27,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16
Vlach:IT_Marche,25.48,9.49,23.15,11.52,25.53,3.8,0 .14,0.14,0.12,0.15,0.12,0.18,0.18
Vlach:IT_Umbria,26.21,9.45,23.31,11.11,24.58,3.76, 0.28,0.17,0,0.16,0.84,0.13,0
Vlach:IT_Lazio,25.25,9.35,24.03,11.35,25.14,3.6,0. 33,0.2,0.12,0.25,0.18,0.14,0.06
Vlach:IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50 ,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:IT_Basilicata,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.55,28.73,5 .5,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33

My distance is still high.

Target: Dušan
Distance: 422.0546% / 4.22054608
68.2 Slavic
31.8 Vlach


My west med is high (18.56), so some Sardinian-like population existed in Balkans.

[Jana]

My distance is still high.

Target: Dušan
Distance: 422.0546% / 4.22054608
68.2 Slavic
31.8 Vlach


My west med is high (18.56), so some Sardinian-like population existed in Balkans.

Neolithic Balkanites were Sardinian-like, perhaps pockets of such mix survovied. Okay, I'll add them as well as Cypriots.

[Jana]

Slavic:Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44 ,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Germanic:Denmark,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52, 0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Germanic:Dutch_North,49.31,26.39,10.94,5.26,3.09,0 .73,0.88,0.38,0.64,0.71,0.50,0.50,0.60
Vlach:IT_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61, 0.18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Vlach:IT_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61, 0.12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Vlach:IT_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79, 0.22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Vlach:IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95, 0.28,0.05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
Slavic:Masurian,31.66,44.71,11.83,4.12,2.82,1.20,0 .89,0.20,1.14,0.39,0.29,0.17,0.58
Germanic:North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24, 0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17
Alan:North_Ossetian,6.39,11.93,7.27,48.78,14.62,1. 38,1.74,2.27,4.59,0.62,0.30,0.06,0.05
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Germanic:Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43 ,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Alan:Ossetian,7.84,7.30,9.08,48.98,14.05,1.99,2.74 ,2.92,4.19,0.56,0.21,0.13,0.01
Slavic:Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.9 6,0.11,0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Slavic:Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83 ,1.69,1.38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Slavic:Southwest_Russian,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.2 6,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Germanic:Sweden_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.8 8,0.62,0.93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Turkic:Tatar,18.88,34.62,5.85,11.66,3.85,0.90,2.68 ,3.12,15.56,2.00,0.28,0.13,0.46
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
Slavic:Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16, 1.09,0.91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78,5. 54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Vlach:FrenchCorsica,26.74,9.01,28.48,6.84,23.99,3. 65,0.18,0.18,0.21,0.17,0.45,0.1,0
Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen,7.16,12.65,3.08,22.29,7.92,0 .41,8.31,10.56,24.77,1.32,0.69,0.23,0.63
Turkic:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3. 45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27
Vlach:IT_Molise,20.11,8.57,21.61,14.07,29.62,4.58, 0.02,0.47,0,0.38,0.25,0.16,0.16
Vlach:Greek_Dodecanese,12.59,6.27,20.44,18.63,33.7 5,6.15,0.72,0.46,0.28,0.21,0.24,0.17,0.09
Vlach:Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.1 2,0.27,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16
Vlach:IT_Marche,25.48,9.49,23.15,11.52,25.53,3.8,0 .14,0.14,0.12,0.15,0.12,0.18,0.18
Vlach:IT_Umbria,26.21,9.45,23.31,11.11,24.58,3.76, 0.28,0.17,0,0.16,0.84,0.13,0
Vlach:IT_Lazio,25.25,9.35,24.03,11.35,25.14,3.6,0. 33,0.2,0.12,0.25,0.18,0.14,0.06
Vlach:IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50 ,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:IT_Basilicata,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.55,28.73,5 .5,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:Greek_Cypriot,5.67,2.81,19.86,20.34,41.08,8. 12,0.5,0.07,0.23,0,0.47,0.3,0.54
Vlach:Sardinia,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0, 0.13,0.03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1

[Jana]

However adding Sardinia can worsen the model, if you get Slavic + Sardinian it means your Slavic got inflated.

[Jana]

my fit is now better, but it look like with sardinia my germanic got inflated

Distance: 2.0513% / 2.05129874
Target: Stearsolina

50.4 Slavic
22.0 Germanic
18.7 Vlach
8.9 Alan

Distance: 2.0513% / 2.05129874
Target: Stearsolina

50.4 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
22.0 Germanic:Norwegian
15.8 Vlach:Sardinia
8.9 Alan:North_Ossetian
2.9 Vlach:IT_Marche

[Dušan]

Okay, delete it, and lets find other population sample, so people on Balkans with highh west med could get close distance.

[vbnetkhio]

However adding Sardinia can worsen the model, if you get Slavic + Sardinian it means your Slavic got inflated.

that's just my theory why many south Slavs get Sardinian.

[Coastal Elite]

Better fit now. Is central Italy (Lazio) a typical sample for Vlach?

AncestryDNA
Distance: 2.4132% / 2.41322418
Target: DacoCeltic
57.1 Germanic
41.1 Vlach
1.8 Alan

Distance: 2.4132% / 2.41322418
Target: DacoCeltic
57.1 Germanic:Norwegian
36.9 Vlach:IT_Lazio
4.1 Vlach:IT_Umbria
1.8 Alan:Ossetian
0.1 Vlach:IT_Marche

[Dušan]

that's just my theory why many south Slavs get Sardinian.

What population you suggest, so you, me and member страхота, аll three with high west med values, got closer distances?

[Jana]

Okay, delete it, and lets find other population sample, so people on Balkans with highh west med could get close distance.

I keep it, it helps me too as you can see. I just usually don't get 22% Germanic.

[Jana]

Okay, delete it, and lets find other population sample, so people on Balkans with highh west med could get close distance.

Did you try Iberia? Some Illyrian samples were Iberian like.

[Jana]

Better fit now. Is central Italy (Lazio) a typical sample for Vlach?

AncestryDNA
Distance: 2.4132% / 2.41322418
Target: DacoCeltic
57.1 Germanic
41.1 Vlach
1.8 Alan

Distance: 2.4132% / 2.41322418
Target: DacoCeltic
57.1 Germanic:Norwegian
36.9 Vlach:IT_Lazio
4.1 Vlach:IT_Umbria
1.8 Alan:Ossetian
0.1 Vlach:IT_Marche

Yeah, I think Lazio and nearby regions are pretty good Vlach proxys.

[Dušan]

Slavic:Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44 ,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Germanic:Denmark,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52, 0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Germanic:Dutch_North,49.31,26.39,10.94,5.26,3.09,0 .73,0.88,0.38,0.64,0.71,0.50,0.50,0.60
Vlach:IT_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61, 0.18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Vlach:IT_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61, 0.12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Vlach:IT_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79, 0.22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Vlach:IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95, 0.28,0.05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
Slavic:Masurian,31.66,44.71,11.83,4.12,2.82,1.20,0 .89,0.20,1.14,0.39,0.29,0.17,0.58
Germanic:North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24, 0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17
Alan:North_Ossetian,6.39,11.93,7.27,48.78,14.62,1. 38,1.74,2.27,4.59,0.62,0.30,0.06,0.05
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Germanic:Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43 ,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Alan:Ossetian,7.84,7.30,9.08,48.98,14.05,1.99,2.74 ,2.92,4.19,0.56,0.21,0.13,0.01
Slavic:Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.9 6,0.11,0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Slavic:Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83 ,1.69,1.38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Slavic:Southwest_Russian,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.2 6,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Germanic:Sweden_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.8 8,0.62,0.93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Turkic:Tatar,18.88,34.62,5.85,11.66,3.85,0.90,2.68 ,3.12,15.56,2.00,0.28,0.13,0.46
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
Slavic:Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16, 1.09,0.91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78,5. 54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Vlach:FrenchCorsica,26.74,9.01,28.48,6.84,23.99,3. 65,0.18,0.18,0.21,0.17,0.45,0.1,0
Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen,7.16,12.65,3.08,22.29,7.92,0 .41,8.31,10.56,24.77,1.32,0.69,0.23,0.63
Turkic:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3. 45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27
Vlach:IT_Molise,20.11,8.57,21.61,14.07,29.62,4.58, 0.02,0.47,0,0.38,0.25,0.16,0.16
Vlach:Greek_Dodecanese,12.59,6.27,20.44,18.63,33.7 5,6.15,0.72,0.46,0.28,0.21,0.24,0.17,0.09
Vlach:Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.1 2,0.27,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16
Vlach:IT_Marche,25.48,9.49,23.15,11.52,25.53,3.8,0 .14,0.14,0.12,0.15,0.12,0.18,0.18
Vlach:IT_Umbria,26.21,9.45,23.31,11.11,24.58,3.76, 0.28,0.17,0,0.16,0.84,0.13,0
Vlach:IT_Lazio,25.25,9.35,24.03,11.35,25.14,3.6,0. 33,0.2,0.12,0.25,0.18,0.14,0.06
Vlach:IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50 ,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:IT_Basilicata,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.55,28.73,5 .5,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:Greek_Cypriot,5.67,2.81,19.86,20.34,41.08,8. 12,0.5,0.07,0.23,0,0.47,0.3,0.54
Vlach:Sardinia,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0, 0.13,0.03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1

Target: Dušan
Distance: 167.3549% / 1.67354928
67.4 Southwest_Russian
21.2 Sardinia
7.4 Greek_Cypriot
3.4 North_Ossetian
0.6 Ukrainian_Belgorod

[vbnetkhio]

What population you suggest, so you, me and member страхота, аll three with high west med values, got closer distances?

different Slavic samples maybe?

Distance: 2.1726% / 2.17256184
Target: dusan
28.9 KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD
27.1 Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp
16.0 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
15.0 FrenchCorsica
12.5 Greek_Northern-Thrace
0.5 Erzya


Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp,25.17,45.83,13 .05,4.29,6.41,0.44,0,0.03,2.59,1.13,0.64,0.42,0
I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_ybp,30.89 ,37.94,12.04,8.95,5.72,0.86,0,0,2.09,0.47,0.11,0.9 3,0
KRA003_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,36.22,42.47,9.53,1.8,2.24,1.07,0.38 ,0.11,1.99,0.77,1.59,1.57,0.25
VK272_Russia_Gnezdovo,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3. 37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
VK542_Ukraine_Chernigov,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.1 4,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
AV2_Hungary_Avar_daughter.or.mother.AV1_1356_ybp,3 0.22,47.46,11.05,4.34,3.01,0.41,0.55,0,1.56,0.94,0 ,0.46,0
VK212_Poland_Cedynia,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0, 1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
VK541_Ukraine_Lutsk,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.0 5,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
VK287_Denmark_Langeland,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54 ,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
AV1_Hungary_Szolad_5400640_AD,28.66,40.64,11.87,8. 37,7.14,0.00,1.50,0.00,0.52,0.96,0.26,0.00,0.06
VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2.56,0,0 ,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0
VK273_Russia_Gnezdovo,34.83,41.14,9.3,5.55,2.85,0. 1,0.7,0,0.18,1.23,1.41,1.53,1.18
KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43, 0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
VK466_Russia_Gnezdovo,25.85,43.15,9.22,12.82,0,0,2 .34,0.15,0,2.09,1.69,0,2.69
VK210_Poland_Kraków,26.02,40.91,13.35,3.24,6.65,1. 58,2.73,0,0,3.34,0.17,0,2.01
KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3 ,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
VK309_Sweden_Skara,31.03,49.73,9.14,1.59,4.23,2.22 ,0,0.45,0,0,1.05,0,0.57
VK340_Denmark_Jutland,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0 ,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
VK339_Denmark_Jutland,30.19,38.31,4.19,7.6,13.21,0 ,0,0,0,0,2.03,2.99,1.47

[Dušan]

Did you try Iberia? Some Illyrian samples were Iberian like.

Distance 4, with all spanish or Basque samples.


Only them. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPrXM8t-UE0

[Dušan]

different Slavic samples maybe?

Distance: 2.1726% / 2.17256184
Target: dusan
28.9 KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD
27.1 Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp
16.0 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
15.0 FrenchCorsica
12.5 Greek_Northern-Thrace
0.5 Erzya


Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp,25.17,45.83,13 .05,4.29,6.41,0.44,0,0.03,2.59,1.13,0.64,0.42,0
I4137_Czech_Early_Slav_dup.I4137.SG_1235_ybp,30.89 ,37.94,12.04,8.95,5.72,0.86,0,0,2.09,0.47,0.11,0.9 3,0
KRA003_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,36.22,42.47,9.53,1.8,2.24,1.07,0.38 ,0.11,1.99,0.77,1.59,1.57,0.25
VK272_Russia_Gnezdovo,27.1,42.86,8.37,4.01,8.44,3. 37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
VK542_Ukraine_Chernigov,22.48,43.78,10.72,8.56,9.1 4,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0.87
AV2_Hungary_Avar_daughter.or.mother.AV1_1356_ybp,3 0.22,47.46,11.05,4.34,3.01,0.41,0.55,0,1.56,0.94,0 ,0.46,0
VK212_Poland_Cedynia,29.69,48.84,9.53,5.54,1.59,0, 1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
VK541_Ukraine_Lutsk,23.15,43.28,11.7,7.62,7.79,1.0 5,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
VK287_Denmark_Langeland,27.47,45.26,8.62,7.09,7.54 ,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
AV1_Hungary_Szolad_5400640_AD,28.66,40.64,11.87,8. 37,7.14,0.00,1.50,0.00,0.52,0.96,0.26,0.00,0.06
VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2.56,0,0 ,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0
VK273_Russia_Gnezdovo,34.83,41.14,9.3,5.55,2.85,0. 1,0.7,0,0.18,1.23,1.41,1.53,1.18
KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43, 0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
VK466_Russia_Gnezdovo,25.85,43.15,9.22,12.82,0,0,2 .34,0.15,0,2.09,1.69,0,2.69
VK210_Poland_Kraków,26.02,40.91,13.35,3.24,6.65,1. 58,2.73,0,0,3.34,0.17,0,2.01
KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3 ,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
VK309_Sweden_Skara,31.03,49.73,9.14,1.59,4.23,2.22 ,0,0.45,0,0,1.05,0,0.57
VK340_Denmark_Jutland,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02,8.09,0 ,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
VK339_Denmark_Jutland,30.19,38.31,4.19,7.6,13.21,0 ,0,0,0,0,2.03,2.99,1.47

Thank you.

[Dušan]

This KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD is some new sample.

[vbnetkhio]

This KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD is some new sample.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?335280-Bernburg-Medieval-Global25

[Dušan]

different Slavic samples maybe?

Distance: 2.1726% / 2.17256184
Target: dusan
28.9 KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD
27.1 Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp
16.0 Greek_Eastern-Thrace
15.0 FrenchCorsica
12.5 Greek_Northern-Thrace
0.5 Erzya


This is probably best model for me, so far.

And it is somehow simmilar with new FTDNA results.

[CommonSense]

This is with your latest population sheet. The distance is now a bit lower:

Distance: 2.2842% / 2.28424139
Target: CommonSense
52.1 Slavic
38.0 Vlach
8.2 Alan
1.7 Germanic

[Ion Basescul]

Added Greek Islanders and lot of other similar regions of south and central Italy. Now Vlach covers wide range from Tuscan to Dodecanese, hope you are satisfied :)



Nothing's significantly changed for me. The Vlachic part was mostly French_Corsican, with the original too. The minor part however was Puglian, whereas now it picks Crete.

Distance: 1.1549% / 1.15487696
Target: Eu_MyHeritage
57.5 Slavic
28.4 Vlach
8.3 Alan
5.8 Turkic


Distance: 1.1549% / 1.15487696
Target: Eu_MyHeritage
57.5 Slavic:Ukrainian
19.6 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
8.8 Vlach:Greek_Crete
8.3 Alan:North_Ossetian
3.3 Turkic:Tatar
2.5 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar

[Ford]

Bosniak friend of mine

Distance: 0.8388% / 0.83882638
Target: Bosniak
49.1 Slavic
44.4 Vlach
6.5 Alan

[CommonSense]

Bosniak friend of mine

Distance: 0.8388% / 0.83882638
Target: Bosniak
49.1 Slavic
44.4 Vlach
6.5 Alan

Sandžaklija?

[paradox]

Newest update

Distance: 1.4306% / 1.43064504
Target: K13
38.8 Vlach:Greek_Crete
32.3 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
23.9 Vlach:Greek_Cypriot
2.6 Vlach:Sardinia
1.6 Slavic:Belorussian
0.7 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
0.1 Vlach:IT_Molise
-----------------

Distance: 0.7944% / 0.79442902
Target: Fatherk13
57.2 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
32.1 Slavic:Belorussian
7.0 Germanic:Norwegian
2.5 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
1.2 Turkic:Tatar

[Lucas]

:)

Distance: 3.0560% / 3.05600837
Target: luk
100.0 Slavic

[Jana]

updated family and friends...damn looks great! :D

Distance: 0.6291% / 0.62908098
Target: Stears

41.5 Slavic
30.4 Germanic
17.7 Vlach
7.8 Alan
2.6 Turkic

Distance: 1.0831% / 1.08311647
Target: Stearsolina_Mom

50.9 Slavic
23.6 Vlach
17.8 Germanic
7.7 Alan

Distance: 1.9699% / 1.96988159
Target: Stearsolina_Dad

60.6 Slavic
27.6 Vlach
11.1 Germanic
0.7 Alan

Distance: 1.4462% / 1.44624853
Target: Hrvoje

50.0 Slavic
21.4 Germanic
19.0 Vlach
9.6 Alan

Distance: 1.6123% / 1.61232297
Target: Manda

81.4 Slavic
15.3 Vlach
3.3 Alan

Distance: 3.5185% / 3.51854643
Target: Blanka

52.9 Slavic
30.2 Vlach
16.9 Germanic

[Dušan]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?335280-Bernburg-Medieval-Global25

It is sample of Lusatian Serb. :thumb001:

[Jana]

I made special model for Blanka (my Hungarian friend) since she still gets somewhat high distance compared to rest of us:
Her DNA looks like Slavic + Celtic mix, I noticed that already when she got her initial results and that's why her fit here is poor (lack of Celtic proxy)

Her pre-Slavic part is very central Euro like and not Meddish while on the other hand she has little to none Germanic (also noticed that from beginning).
Her phenotype also looks Celto-Slavic btw and fitting her ancestry (she is in-between West Alpine and Gorid)

Look how fit improves with Swiss_Italian added:

Distance: 2.1887% / 2.18868687
Target: Blanka

54.5 Slavic
44.9 Swiss_Italian
0.6 Germanic

[Leto]

These two South Slavic gods

Distance: 1.4236% / 1.42362829
Target: Max_soldo(croat)
72.1 Slavic
27.9 Vlach

Distance: 1.9539% / 1.95388686
Target: Vlatko_vukovic(bosniak)
70.7 Slavic
29.1 Vlach
0.2 Alan
Even more godlike

Distance: 0.9415% / 0.94147589
Target: Max_soldo(croat)
74.1 Slavic
25.9 Vlach

Distance: 1.1888% / 1.18879729
Target: Vlatko_vukovic(bosniak)
71.2 Slavic
27.1 Vlach
1.7 Alan

By the way, fuck Vlatko for deleting his kit.

[Jana]

It is sample of Lusatian Serb. :thumb001:

Highly likely indeed, I think so as well.

[Jana]

Even more godlike

Distance: 0.9415% / 0.94147589
Target: Max_soldo(croat)
74.1 Slavic
25.9 Vlach

Distance: 1.1888% / 1.18879729
Target: Vlatko_vukovic(bosniak)
71.2 Slavic
27.1 Vlach
1.7 Alan

By the way, fuck Vlatko for deleting his kit.

They both have in common that they are from Bosnia-Herzegovina which makes sense since Bosniak average is most Slavic out of all south slavs.
However my family friend Manda is still recorder (80%+ Slavic), and she is eastern Croat, but interestingly her subgroup of Croats called Šokac people originates from Bosnia as well.

[Leto]

They both have in common that they are from Bosnia-Herzegovina which makes sense since Bosniak average is most Slavic out of all south slavs.
However my family friend Manda is still recorder (80%+ Slavic), and she is eastern Croat, but interestingly her subgroup of Croats called Šokac people originates from Bosnia as well.
Yeah, that's pretty amazing how some Croats and Bosniaks come up as 75-80% Slavic, at least on this run.

[Jana]

Yeah, that's pretty amazing how some Croats and Bosniaks come up as 75-80% Slavic, at least on this run.

Yeah! And even more amazing how big south slavic range is when it comes to early Slavic ancestry.
Torbesh are only 1/4 Slavic in comparison, they are Macedonian Slavic muslim group:

Distance: 1.4867% / 1.48666929
Target: Torbesh

75.0 Vlach
25.0 Slavic

South Slavs are smallest Slavic branch in numbers and geography but by far most heterogenous one. :)

[Leto]

Yeah! And even more amazing how big south slavic range is when it comes to early Slavic ancestry.
Torbesh are only 1/4 Slavic in comparison, they are Macedonian Slavic muslim group:

Distance: 1.4867% / 1.48666929
Target: Torbesh

75.0 Vlach
25.0 Slavic

South Slavs are smallest Slavic branch in numbers and geography but by far most heterogenous one. :)
Some people would even deny they actually have Slavic ancestry...

[JohnnyP]

25 Macedonians from All regions.
https://i.imgur.com/LupnyTo.jpg

[alexmegas777]

Distance to: alexmegas(Romanian)
14.39312683 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
18.14409270 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
21.87767584 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
22.35452303 Vlach:IT_Puglia
23.23762251 Vlach:IT_Apulia
23.45472234 Germanic:North_German
25.34672760 Germanic:Dutch_North
26.42942111 Slavic:Ukrainian
27.67722168 Germanic:Denmark
28.07017813 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
28.19897161 Germanic:Norwegian
28.25778300 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
28.70547509 Slavic:Masurian
29.19844345 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
29.20885311 Slavic:Polish
29.30625530 Turkic:Tatar
30.84738725 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
31.10698635 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
32.28850879 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
33.45447354 Slavic:Belorussian
39.62058682 Turkic:Bashkir
42.37427168 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
47.91981323 Alan:North_Ossetian
48.02519235 Alan:Ossetian

Target: alexmegas(Romanian)
Distance: 267.1717% / 2.67171701 | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.0 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
22.8 Slavic:Masurian
13.6 Germanic:North_German
6.2 Alan:Ossetian
0.4 Turkic:Tatar

[Jana]

Updated Croatian averages. Italian_Marche showed to be main and best Vlach proxy for all of them, very interesting. Fit is outstanding on all of them.

Distance: 0.6138% / 0.61382008
Target: Croat

60.6 Slavic
32.4 Vlach
7.0 Germanic

Distance: 0.4532% / 0.45321200
Target: Croat_North

61.5 Slavic
26.4 Vlach
12.1 Germanic

Distance: 0.8397% / 0.83965089
Target: Croat_East

65.3 Slavic
31.0 Vlach
3.7 Germanic

Distance: 0.9019% / 0.90187227
Target: Croat_West

56.9 Slavic
38.4 Vlach
4.7 Germanic

Distance: 0.6833% / 0.68333585
Target: Croat_South

60.6 Slavic
38.4 Vlach
1.0 Germanic

[calxpal]

I'm trying my sister on this, I'm curious what she'll get :)

Target: sis
Distance: 249.3676% / 2.49367550
52.2 Germanic:Denmark
21.0 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
9.2 Slavic:Masurian
9.2 Germanic:North_German
6.0 Germanic:Dutch_North
2.4 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen

Distance to: sis
7.65725147 Germanic:North_German
9.11276577 Germanic:Dutch_North
11.28435643 Germanic:Denmark
11.68675318 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
11.89228321 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
12.01099913 Germanic:Norwegian
22.86806507 Slavic:Masurian
23.71273919 Slavic:Ukrainian
24.16065810 Slavic:Polish
28.08092057 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
28.36351530 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
28.56651536 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
28.58595284 Slavic:Belorussian
28.69828741 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
31.45127819 Turkic:Tatar
31.89316228 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
37.19103924 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
37.34730512 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
38.12604097 Vlach:IT_Puglia
38.88517712 Vlach:IT_Apulia
43.15433003 Turkic:Bashkir
50.19267875 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
58.72912055 Alan:North_Ossetian
58.94501336 Alan:Ossetian

Me again for comparison =)

Target: cpal
Distance: 119.7433% / 1.19743319
49.4 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
12.0 Vlach:IT_Puglia
11.8 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
10.6 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
8.6 Slavic:Belorussian
5.4 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
1.2 Turkic:Bashkir
1.0 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar

Distance to: cpal
9.55423990 Germanic:North_German
11.94248299 Germanic:Dutch_North
13.49768499 Germanic:Denmark
13.64580522 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
13.90909055 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
14.15004947 Germanic:Norwegian
19.01827542 Slavic:Masurian
19.36276840 Slavic:Ukrainian
19.96708291 Slavic:Polish
23.64280863 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
23.67860004 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
24.00781748 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
24.13279719 Slavic:Belorussian
27.58546900 Turkic:Tatar
28.41543947 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
32.17295759 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
34.62377507 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
36.04459183 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
36.81626814 Vlach:IT_Puglia
37.67983015 Vlach:IT_Apulia
40.51627081 Turkic:Bashkir
48.19211139 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
56.70691669 Alan:North_Ossetian
57.36980739 Alan:Ossetian

[Abriekman]

Distance: 4.1751% / 4.17505833
Target: Abriekman
88.8 Slavic
8.2 Alan
3.0 Vlach

[Jana]

that's just my theory why many south Slavs get Sardinian.

Which model you think is more realistic for me btw?

One I use in my sig:

Distance: 2.3134% / 2.31341218
Target: Stearsolina

64.1 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
16.2 Vlach:Sardinia
11.4 Germanic:Norwegian
5.5 Alan:North_Ossetian
2.8 Vlach:IT_Marche

or second (Sardinian removed)?

Distance: 2.7651% / 2.76509998
Target: Stearsolina

65.7 Slavic:Ukrainian
18.2 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
6.8 Alan:North_Ossetian
5.5 Slavic: Polish
3.8 Germanic:Norwegian

First gives me slightly better fit, but not sure as my Vlach part is mainly Sardinian there, idk how realistic is that.
I added Caucasian in SE Euro score because obviously it's sth native Balkan, I get no Caucasus on any commercial valiation.
so maybe in my case native part is mix is Sardinian and Ossetian like plus bit Marche?

Or do you think second model is better where my Vlach part is Corsican + Ossetian like? Not always lower fit is more realistic.

[PaleoEuropean]

Distance: 6.0276% / 6.02757145
Target: paleo
88.4 Germanic
11.6 Vlach


Distance to: paleo
7.58533453 Germanic: Dutch_North
9.05070715 Germanic:North_German
9.93373545 Germanic: Denmark
10.07850683 Germanic:Norwegian
10.52385861 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
10.69750438 Germanic:Sweden_Götaland
31.18001604 Slavic:Masurian
32.49993538 Vlach:IT_Tuscan
32.56526063 Slavic: Polish
32.71591967 Slavic:Ukrainian
35.51434077 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
36.51460119 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk
36.73453280 Slavic:Belorussian
37.09717240 Slavic:Southwest_Russian
37.36288934 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
39.72293418 Turkic:Tatar
41.54146122 Vlach:IT_Abruzzo
42.86695697 Vlach:IT_Puglia
43.40073502 Vlach:IT_Apulia
44.25910754 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
49.57241773 Turkic:Bashkir
56.04395596 Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen
63.21056715 Alan:Ossetian
63.49508170 Alan:North_Ossetian

[Ülev]

^^ you are basically Rethel, nice

31.18001604 Slavic:Masurian

[MandM]

Target: Milenko
Distance: 475.3642% / 4.75364218 | ADC: 0.5x RC
55.0 Slavic
45.0 Vlach

Target: Milenko
Distance: 474.2105% / 4.74210510 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.8 Slavic
45.2 Vlach

Target: Milenko
Distance: 472.9374% / 4.72937355
54.4 Slavic
44.2 Vlach
1.4 Alan

[Jana]

Target: Milenko
Distance: 475.3642% / 4.75364218 | ADC: 0.5x RC
55.0 Slavic
45.0 Vlach

Target: Milenko
Distance: 474.2105% / 4.74210510 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.8 Slavic
45.2 Vlach

Target: Milenko
Distance: 472.9374% / 4.72937355
54.4 Slavic
44.2 Vlach
1.4 Alan

try this updated run


Slavic:Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44 ,0.97,0.18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Germanic:Denmark,50.61,28.70,10.19,5.00,2.12,0.52, 0.99,0.19,0.42,0.59,0.23,0.12,0.17
Germanic:Dutch_North,49.31,26.39,10.94,5.26,3.09,0 .73,0.88,0.38,0.64,0.71,0.50,0.50,0.60
Vlach:IT_Abruzzo,20.82,8.67,21.33,13.7,29.21,4.61, 0.18,0.28,0.28,0.22,0.33,0.33,0.04
Vlach:IT_Apulia,19.01,8.44,22.08,14.71,29.49,4.61, 0.12,0.02,0.1,0.4,0.55,0.37,0.1
Vlach:IT_Tuscan,27.72,10.94,24.25,8.89,23.27,3.79, 0.22,0.14,0.15,0.08,0.38,0.14,0.05
Vlach:IT_Puglia,18.81,9.37,21.86,14.54,28.77,4.95, 0.28,0.05,0.17,0.26,0.44,0.35,0.09
Slavic:Masurian,31.66,44.71,11.83,4.12,2.82,1.20,0 .89,0.20,1.14,0.39,0.29,0.17,0.58
Germanic:North_German,47.17,27.37,10.33,7.12,4.24, 0.91,1.46,0.04,0.12,0.43,0.28,0.37,0.17
Alan:North_Ossetian,6.39,11.93,7.27,48.78,14.62,1. 38,1.74,2.27,4.59,0.62,0.30,0.06,0.05
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Germanic:Norwegian,51.14,28.61,9.91,5.60,1.73,0.43 ,0.42,0.36,0.64,0.91,0.15,0.01,0.10
Alan:Ossetian,7.84,7.30,9.08,48.98,14.05,1.99,2.74 ,2.92,4.19,0.56,0.21,0.13,0.01
Slavic:Polish,30.43,45.49,10.42,5.43,3.74,1.24,0.9 6,0.11,0.29,0.84,0.26,0.51,0.28
Slavic:Russian_Smolensk,28.16,48.47,8.74,5.82,3.83 ,1.69,1.38,0.17,0.85,0.43,0.38,0.06,0.01
Slavic:Southwest_Russian,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.2 6,0.55,1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Germanic:Sweden_Götaland,50.53,29.29,9.86,4.67,1.8 8,0.62,0.93,0.21,0.69,0.55,0.41,0.18,0.2
Turkic:Tatar,18.88,34.62,5.85,11.66,3.85,0.90,2.68 ,3.12,15.56,2.00,0.28,0.13,0.46
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
Slavic:Ukrainian,27.77,43.57,12.05,6.12,5.68,0.16, 1.09,0.91,1.41,0.78,0.28,0.11,0.07
Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod,25.78,47.29,7.85,8.78,5. 54,0.58,1.10,0.71,1.02,0.59,0.25,0.16,0.34
Vlach:FrenchCorsica,26.74,9.01,28.48,6.84,23.99,3. 65,0.18,0.18,0.21,0.17,0.45,0.1,0
Turkic:Afghan_Turkmen,7.16,12.65,3.08,22.29,7.92,0 .41,8.31,10.56,24.77,1.32,0.69,0.23,0.63
Turkic:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1.26,0.28,3. 45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27
Vlach:IT_Molise,20.11,8.57,21.61,14.07,29.62,4.58, 0.02,0.47,0,0.38,0.25,0.16,0.16
Vlach:Greek_Dodecanese,12.59,6.27,20.44,18.63,33.7 5,6.15,0.72,0.46,0.28,0.21,0.24,0.17,0.09
Vlach:Greek_Crete,13.22,9.49,20.29,17.33,32.47,5.1 2,0.27,0.24,0.20,0.15,0.60,0.47,0.16
Vlach:IT_Marche,25.48,9.49,23.15,11.52,25.53,3.8,0 .14,0.14,0.12,0.15,0.12,0.18,0.18
Vlach:IT_Umbria,26.21,9.45,23.31,11.11,24.58,3.76, 0.28,0.17,0,0.16,0.84,0.13,0
Vlach:IT_Lazio,25.25,9.35,24.03,11.35,25.14,3.6,0. 33,0.2,0.12,0.25,0.18,0.14,0.06
Vlach:IT_Lucania,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.50,28.73,5.50 ,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:IT_Basilicata,20.54,8.01,20.72,14.55,28.73,5 .5,0.37,0.08,0.09,0.03,0.46,0.59,0.33
Vlach:Greek_Cypriot,5.67,2.81,19.86,20.34,41.08,8. 12,0.5,0.07,0.23,0,0.47,0.3,0.54
Vlach:Sardinia,23.14,1.64,49.58,0.38,22.02,2.41,0, 0.13,0.03,0,0.31,0.26,0.1

Edit: I ran your K13 data from Universe's database for you

Distance: 1.3720% / 1.37195301
Target: Milenko

58.4 Slavic
38.6 Vlach
3.0 Alan

Distance: 1.3720% / 1.37195301
Target: Milenko

57.0 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
23.2 Vlach:Sardinia
15.4 Vlach:Greek_Cypriot
3.0 Alan:North_Ossetian
1.4 Slavic:Russian_Smolensk

[andre]

Distance: 1.2958% / 1.29578736
Target: Andre
49.0 Vlach
45.3 Slavic
3.5 Germanic
2.2 Turkic

[vbnetkhio]

Which model you think is more realistic for me btw?

One I use in my sig:

Distance: 2.3134% / 2.31341218
Target: Stearsolina

64.1 Slavic:Ukrainian_Belgorod
16.2 Vlach:Sardinia
11.4 Germanic:Norwegian
5.5 Alan:North_Ossetian
2.8 Vlach:IT_Marche

or second (Sardinian removed)?

Distance: 2.7651% / 2.76509998
Target: Stearsolina

65.7 Slavic:Ukrainian
18.2 Vlach:FrenchCorsica
6.8 Alan:North_Ossetian
5.5 Slavic: Polish
3.8 Germanic:Norwegian

First gives me slightly better fit, but not sure as my Vlach part is mainly Sardinian there, idk how realistic is that.
I added Caucasian in SE Euro score because obviously it's sth native Balkan, I get no Caucasus on any commercial valiation.
so maybe in my case native part is mix is Sardinian and Ossetian like plus bit Marche?

Or do you think second model is better where my Vlach part is Corsican + Ossetian like? Not always lower fit is more realistic.

in 2way modelling you work best as a mix Slavs and Germanic admixed Italians, or Greeks and Germanic admixed Slavs.
so maybe Greek+German+Ukrainian would work the best.



[,1] [,2]
[1,] "35.7 % IT_Insubria + 64.3 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.174"
[2,] "29.3 % German_East + 70.7 % Moldova_North" "3.2192"
[3,] "38.3 % IT_Veneto + 61.7 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.3224"
[4,] "39.8 % Bosniak_Sandzak + 60.2 % South_Polish" "3.3362"
[5,] "27.2 % Greek_Eastern-Macedonia + 72.8 % South_Polish" "3.3671"
[6,] "34.1 % IT_Orobia + 65.9 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.4107"
[7,] "50.7 % Moldova_North + 49.3 % Slovenian" "3.432"
[8,] "44.2 % Bulgaria_Northeastern + 55.8 % Masurian" "3.4478"
[9,] "40.7 % Romania_Oltenia + 59.3 % South_Polish" "3.4648"
[10,] "72.6 % South_Polish + 27.4 % Torbeshi_North-Macedonia-East" "3.4779"
[11,] "32.7 % Bulgaria_Southeastern + 67.3 % South_Polish" "3.4788"
[12,] "35.3 % Czech + 64.7 % Moldova_North" "3.4833"
[13,] "57.7 % Serb_north + 42.3 % South_Polish" "3.4909"
[14,] "48.8 % Bosniak_Sandzak + 51.2 % Polish" "3.5015"
[15,] "52.6 % Serb + 47.4 % South_Polish" "3.5023"
[16,] "68.1 % South_Polish + 31.9 % Vlach_North-Macedonia" "3.5105"
[17,] "42 % Montenegrin + 58 % South_Polish" "3.5148"
[18,] "41.6 % Bulgaria_Southeastern + 58.4 % Masurian" "3.518"
[19,] "35 % Bulgaria_Northeastern + 65 % South_Polish" "3.5226"
[20,] "33.9 % IT_Emilia_ovest + 66.1 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.535"



the distances are high, but even with a full sheet nmonte your distance is around 2.
i think it's just because of the normal variance within populations which averages can't show properly.

e.g. Germans have 6% West asian on average which means many individuals have as much as 10%, like you do, but the averages can't show that.

[Rius]

Distance: 12.4661% / 12.46609958
Target: Rius
49.3 Vlach
49.0 Alan
1.7 Turkic

[andrzej]

Kuban Cossacks

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20150508/00016c42b36b16b66e9425.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/ENNYCY/moscow-russia-9th-may-2015-kuban-cossacks-take-part-in-the-military-ENNYCY.jpg

They're just Ukrainians for most part. Some may have Circassian or minor Turk input but vas majority is average eastern Slav.
First of all, you can tell that those people you posted are mostly Russians because they don't even look northern Ukrainian to begin with much less southern which is what most of the ancestry of Kuban Cossacks is. What is average East Slav? Because southern Ukrainians don't look like Russians at all.

The picture you posted is not of Kuban Cossack descendants for the most part, they're just mostly ethnic Russian guys who cosplay as Cossacks but have no Kuban Cossack ancestry at all. Most people calling themselves Cossack now are in no way Cossack. The Kuban was settled by thousands of other Russians and Ukrainians in the last century, the Kuban Cossack culture is a part of regional identity. Abriekman is right, the man he posted is quite a typical Kuban Cossack man. They were mostly Pontids, North-Pontids, Gorids, and Turanid influenced. They're South-East Ukrainian descendants, so they look different than northern or western Ukrainians and most similar to Ukrainians from Kherson, Odessa, and Mykolaiv.
Here are examples of actual Kuban Cossacks:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/f99220b4b61fb68f8bfa3748011bc62e/82102301001a5b94-eb/s2048x3072/ae55d0506e972c266818188febc1399f0f86c902.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/2438244738d3e9c3c8193e857f4af46f/2d9fae1fe1bb8dc7-d8/s1280x1920/9d0fa78d98922219de9e1729e4be6ed63c73400c.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/a09d8e65ade0af65e729b3c8f30ea189/2d9fae1fe1bb8dc7-33/s1280x1920/413f60a589962d2bac824daf690b8f5709fb7be7.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/e4f2314503cce2f27a77744f711b5ce9/2d9fae1fe1bb8dc7-c9/s1280x1920/e9d8fa431c653672f20b7bfd23d390ea62234183.jpg
https://penzavzglyad.ru/images/uploads/7f5c60bd83fc54f41c2020227e53b684.jpg
https://worldpodium.ru/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/1_992.jpg?itok=IV_2QunP
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Hv1ISDaWASw/maxresdefault.jpg
http://kamensk-istoriya.ru/uploads/posts/2018-11/1541921490_kubanskie-kazaki.jpg
https://euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/kubanphoto41.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/e2e4b42c2e94c344fba3b8fd7d8d4c3e/56c96826f7a075dc-22/s2048x3072/84c5dff4360cbe683da0047a85235223bc926c2d.jpg
https://64.media.tumblr.com/31858cf0717b386457c5b2bb3f2bc1be/1de90f6c7a7f7bc3-16/s2048x3072/b69ee07bcb7c7d1b59b2b21eb67116bfaa7b2cfa.jpg


Some guys from the Kuban with Cossack/Ukrainian origin who look it:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d639f3ba0f0a0368690f7064c8782b4d/00f89ba5fb714638-04/s2048x3072/1106fe9ac652c99d8059f61c06345620adbf7b3e.jpg


This is Kuban Cossack phenotype if you are interested

Ethnic Kuban Cossack

https://i.imgur.com/Rru1xhI.jpg
Although you're correct with the picture, you're way off with the ancestry of Kuban Cossacks. Most of them are descendants of Zaporzhian Cossacks who were resettled in the Kuban. Zaporizhian Cossacks were basically a mixture of different Steppe people (Iranic, Turkic) and mostly right-bank Ukrainian peasants.

[andrzej]

That comment isn't wrong. He only missed the fact that there had been a massive maloros settlement in Southern and Southwestern Russia (Krasnodar, Rostov, Stavropol, Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh). It's written in Kabuzan's book (1990). Parts of Kuban were majority maloros back in the 19th century.
Arhat, please comment on this if you're reading.
Most Kuabn Cossacks were also Maloros/Ukrainians.. Kuban Cossacks = mainly descendants of Zaporizhian Cossacks from south-East Ukraine.

The samples included are very likely people who are mixed between Kuban Cossacks and Russians or some Finno-Ugric people. For example many Mordovians ended up in the Kuban and Ukraine, also many Doukhobors were exiled to the Kuban and many of them have some Mordovian origin.