C. Asians closer to Kurds

[Zoro]

Various papers indicate that Turkmen and Central Asians are genetically closer to Kurds than they are to other West Asian populations- Pre-print

https://eurasiandna.com/new-studies-show-elevated-scythian-east-asian-admixture-in-kurds-as-compared-to-persians-and-ethnic-groups-in-west-asia/


Findings from the following papers will be presented, along with our own formal analysis which corroborates their findings:

1- In “Ancestry and demography and descendants of Iron Age nomads of the Eurasian Steppe“, Unterländer, M., Palstra, F., Lazaridis, I. et al. the authors show that unlike most other populations in West Asia, Kurds derive from both Eastern and Western Scythians (figs 1, 2).

2- In “Kurds HLA Genes: Its Implications in Transplantation and Pharmacogenomics“, Ali Amirzargar1,§, Diego Rey2,§, Ester Muñiz et al, Medical School, Tehran University of Medical Sciences, Tehran, Iran, 2015, the authors show that from various Iranian and worldwide populations Kurds are genetically closest to Iranian Gorgan Turkmen based on HLA-DRB1 haplotypes.

3- In “Phylogeography, genetic diversity and demographic history of the Iranian Kurdish groups based on mtDNA sequences”. Zarei F, Rajabi-Maham H. J Genet. 2016 Dec;95(4):767-776. doi: 10.1007/s12041-016-0692-4. PMID: 27994175 from all European and Asian populations Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds have the lowest FST mt DNA distance to Tatars and from all west Asian and European populations Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds have the lowest mt DNA FST distance to Turkmen.

4- In “A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into central Asia”. Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. Am J Hum Genet. 2002;71(3):466-482. doi:10.1086/342096, the authors show that based on Y-DNA Central Asians cluster closer to Kurds than they do to other West Asians.

[Celto-Germanic]

Interesting! Low FST to tatars? It feels like there are a lot of conflicting reports on Kurdish ancestry, some arguments claiming that it is no different to surrounding Mesopotamians, but at the same time there seems to be a lot of ancient blood floating around the Zagros mountains.. really old R1b, R1a and I clades there. The proto-nordid page on humanphenotypes has a morph basically entirely made of Kurdish YPG members

[Hektor12]

And you get angry when we call Kurds "mountain Turks" lul.

[Zoro]

Interesting! Low FST to tatars? It feels like there are a lot of conflicting reports on Kurdish ancestry, some arguments claiming that it is no different to surrounding Mesopotamians, but at the same time there seems to be a lot of ancient blood floating around the Zagros mountains.. really old R1b, R1a and I clades there. The proto-nordid page on humanphenotypes has a morph basically entirely made of Kurdish YPG members

I think if we do some detective work we may get some clues. For example we should look at this table that was posted in the article and compare the results of Iran-Chl with Iran-IA and the modern Kurd sample and ask ourselves under which column did the biggest change occur between Hasanlu-IA and Kurd-Kurmanji

https://i.imgur.com/JizpvQP.jpg

This is what was posted in the article


Changes in in the genetic landscape in Kurdistan since the Chalcolithic and Iron Age

The QpWave analysis (Fig 28) can provide us clues as to what changes in the genetic landscape of the Kurdistan area accompanied the Indo-Europeanization of the area.

We know for example that during the Chalcolithic, prior to the Indo-European migration waves into the Kurdistan area, both the language or the genetics of those Zagrosian sheep herders (Iran-Chl-HajiFiruz samples shown in Fig 28). We can clearly see this when we compare the qpWave results for Iran-Chl to Iran-IA to the contemporary Kurd-IQ sample shown in Figure 28.

To investigate further we must ask ourselves which of the Mongolian or Kazakh Iron-Age samples shown in the table can potentially cause the results to change from the Chalcolithic to the Iron-Age results and then from the Iron-Age to the contemporary Kurdish result.

Genetic changes from the Iron-Age to the present in Kurdistan

We can immediately rule out Chemurchek as there appears to be more Chemurchek related in the Hasanlu-IA sample than in the Kurd-IQ sample. In fact a better approach may be to ask what is the biggest change between the Hasanlu-IA Iron Age sample and the Kurd-IQ contemporary sample.

Thus we observe in Figure 28 the biggest drop in chisq values from Hasanlu-IA and Kurd-IQ occur for the samples shaded yellow ( for example Late-Med Mongol), ie the ones cotaining Han chinese related admixture, Kazakhstan Hun-Sarmatian, as well as the Siberian Khovsgol-MLBA samples, which consist primarily of Baikal-EBA type admixture.

Therefore, contemporary Kurds are likely a product of hybridization of Iron-Age Hasanlu-IA like population with something similar to Late-Med Mongols or Kazakhstan Hun-Sarmatians. As to specifically where this population mixing occurred to produce contemporary Kurds should be a topic of future research. However, looking at the changes in results from Iran-Chl to Hasanlu-IA to contemporary Kurd-IQ, it appears that there were multiple population mixing events that occurred, the secrets of which are buried in the sands of time.

It is also likely that the hybridization of a Hasanlu-IA population with something similar to Kazakhstan Hun-Sarmatian or Late-Med Mongol to produce contemporary Kurds occurred somewhere north-east of present day Kurdistan, perhaps closer to the birthplace of Zoroaster.

[Zoro]

Dilawer explains his analysis showed significant differences between Kipchak Karakalpaks and neighboring Oghuz Turkmen


Shugnan Tajiks descended from a population substantially similar to Late Xiongnu Sarmatians

The qpWave output table shown in Figure 28 is useful for inferring other relationships between ancients and modern populations. For example, Tajik-Shugnan and Late Xiongnu Sarmatians jump out with a chisq of only 80 (considered low due to the high number of pright references used).




Turkmen and Karakalpak; superficially similar populations with significant differences in deeper ancestry

Turkmen and Karakalpak both inhabit the Turkmenistan area and superficially resemble each other. They also cluster near each other using clustering programs such as Admixture, which are more sensitive to recent shared drift, however, qpWave analysis shows there are significant differences between the two ethnic groups.

In figure 28 we immediately observe that the early Medieval Turkic samples, which are approximately 40% Sarmatian and 60% East Asian Ulaanzuukh [8] related are genetically much more similar to Karakalpaks (which are primarily Kipchak Turkic descended) than they are to Turkmen (primarily Oghuz Turkic descended), with a chisq 68 vs 627.

Turkmen (Oghuz) in contrast to Karakalpaks (Kipchaks) share more genetic drift with the Early Medieval Uyghur samples, which are about 40% Alan, 40% East Asian Ulaanzuukh, and 20% BMAC related [8].

The other notable difference between Turkmen and Karakalpaks is that the latter share significantly more genetic drift with the Late Medieval Mongolian and Kazakhstan Hun-Sarmatian samples.

Another observation is that although Turkmen overall have more East Asian ancestry than Kurds, the Kazakhstan Hun-Sarmatian samples share more genetic drift with the contemporary Kurds than with Turkmen (chisq 1195 vs 2158). By contrast, the Kazakhstan Hun-Sarmatian samples share more genetic drift with Karakalpaks than the contemporary Kurdish sample (chisq 410 vs 1195)

Additionally, Khosvsgol-LBA which are primarily Siberian Baikal-EBA descended [8] share substantially more genetic drift with Karakalpaks than with Turkmen (chisq 595 vs 1430). Thus although Karakalpaks (Kipchaks) may superficially resemble Turkmen (Oghuz), on a deeper level the two neighboring ethnic groups harbor significantly different deep ancestry.

It is also quite likely that the significant BMAC related ancestry Turkmen harbor causes them to be phenotypically more similar to Kurds and other Iranics, in contrast to Karakalpaks.

[Jana]

It's shared Iranic and even some south Asian ancestry obviously.

[Kyp]

Your sources are lacking proper Azeri samples:

https://i.imgur.com/7NsDgIx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VjDgrcC.png


On Central Asian genes among Azeris of Iran:

Genetic studies based on mtDNA and Y-chr confirms a high degree of haplogroups diversity in Central Asian populations, suggesting that these groups are between the most ancient ones of the continent (Wells et al. 2001; Quintana-Murci et al. 2004). Previous HLA studies are consistent with these conclusions and show Siberian and Central Asian population as a monophyletic cluster, in which Altaic groups are close to European populations. HLA genetic distances observed in our study present low values in Altaic populations and Mansi with respect to Azeris, which are shown in a half-way position between Mediterranean and Central Asian, but much close to Todja, Tuvinians and Mansi, in correspondence analyses (Fig 3). These results suggest that “turkification” process caused by Oghuz Turkic tribes could also contribute to the genetic background of Azeri people, as other genetic and historic data argue (Yarshater, 1988; Schonberg et al. 2011)



Azeris are integrated in the first cluster, together with Gorgan (Iranian Turkmen population (Rey et al. 2014)) and Kurds (Armirzargar et al. 2015), and in intermediate position between Iranian populations (Gonzalez-Galarza et al. 2011), and western Siberians: Russian Chuvash (who live near lower Volga River,
126North Caspian Sea (Arnaiz-Villena et al. 2003)), Russian Siberian Mansi (from western Siberia (Uinuk-Ool et al. 2002)), Russian-Mongols Buryat (from Baikal Lake region (Uinuk-Ool et al. 2002)) and Russian Siberian Todja (from western Siberia, inhabiting in the northeastern part of Tuva Republic (Uinuk-Ool et al. 2002)).


Correspondence analysis (Fig 3) clearly shows a certain degree of admixture of Iranian Azeries, Kurds and Gorgan (Turkmen) with Mediterranean and eastern genes.

Source:
"Origin of Azeris (Iran) according to HLA genes"


The paper also says Kurds and Azeris are much related followed by Turkmens from Gorgan.

[Altaylı]

Interesting! Low FST to tatars? It feels like there are a lot of conflicting reports on Kurdish ancestry, some arguments claiming that it is no different to surrounding Mesopotamians, but at the same time there seems to be a lot of ancient blood floating around the Zagros mountains.. really old R1b, R1a and I clades there. The proto-nordid page on humanphenotypes has a morph basically entirely made of Kurdish YPG members

Proto nordid? xDxD
Guys this fella thinks Scythians tocharians kushans wusuns were all proto nordid xDxDxD

[Kyp]

So let's rephrase: Kurds are closest West Asian population to C.Asians after Azeris of Iran (probably North Azerbaijanis too). And probably after Turks too if they would use a real turkish sample.

I think this is a fair assessment and everyone knew beforehand.


I wonder if Turks (from Turkey) being partly Anatolian/Med has something to do with them clustering so far away from Central Asiatic populations or if the samples are just bad. Both possibilities have to be considered.

[Zoro]

Your sources are lacking proper Azeri samples:

https://i.imgur.com/7NsDgIx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VjDgrcC.png


On Central Asian genes among Azeris of Iran:




Source:
"Origin of Azeris (Iran) according to HLA genes"

I’m glad my post stimulated some thinking and you were able to find a paper which included Azeris. Yes it makes sense that Azeris would genetically be close to Iranian Gorgan Turkmen and Kurds (guessing they used Sorani Iranian kurds in the paper). I have seen other papers suggesting a common origin for kurmanji kurds and Azeris based on HLA genes, and since you play with calculators alot you’ve also noticed that some Iraqi kurmanji and sorani kurds sometimes get Azeri as 1st or 2nd population even sometimes before other kurds.

This paper along with others which i hope you’ll discover and formal stats will show you things that G25 will not show you about kurds and azeris. In fact didn’t you post some G25 for your dad showing him closer to Yezidis (on avg significantly less E Asian than kurmanji and sorani) and Fars Persians than to kurmanji/sorani which is pretty funny. Anyways I don’t want to discuss G25 here.

On a different note, the Parthian/Mede/Sarmatian/Scythian migrations into the Iranian plateau and shifted the languages there to Indo-European and caused the HLA gene affinities in the paper you see comprises a significantly higher percentage of the Azeri/kurd genetics than most people think. That Steppe-IA mixing percentage that caused the language shift to Indo-Iranian is being intensely studied at present.

[Zoro]

I think everyone should familiarize themselves with how languages shift.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_shift
“David Anthony notes that the spread of the Indo-European languages probably did not happen through "chain-type folk migrations", but by the introduction of these languages by ritual and political elites, which are emulated by large groups of people.[5][note 2] Anthony explains:

Language shift can be understood best as a social strategy through which individuals and groups compete for positions of prestige, power, and domestic security ... What is important, then, is not just dominance, but vertical social mobility and a linkage between language and access to positions of prestige and power ... A relatively small immigrant elite population can encourage widespread language shift among numerically dominant indigenes in a non-state or pre-state context if the elite employs a specific combination of encouragements and punishments. Ethnohistorical cases ... demonstrate that small elite groups have successfully imposed their languages in non-state situations”




The Indo-Iranian language and culture probably emerged within the Sintashta culture (circa 2100–1800 BCE), at the eastern border of the Abashevo culture, which in turn developed from the Corded Ware-related Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture.[10][11][1][12][13][14] The Sintashta-culture grew into the Andronovo culture[10][11][1][12][13][14] (ca. 1900[15]–800 BCE), the two first phases being the Fedorovo Andronovo culture (ca. 1900–1400 BCE)[15] and Alakul Andronovo culture (ca. 1800–1500 BCE).[16] Indo-Aryans moved into the Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex (ca. 2400–1600 BCE) and spread to the Levant (Mitanni), northern India (Vedic people, ca. 1500 BCE), and China (Wusun).[2] The Iranian languages spread back throughout the steppes with the Scyths, and into Ancient Iran with the Medes, Parthians and Persians from ca. 800 BCE.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations

[RatCat]

Various papers indicate that Turkmen and Central Asians are genetically closer to Kurds than they are to other West Asian populations- Pre-print

https://eurasiandna.com/new-studies-show-elevated-scythian-east-asian-admixture-in-kurds-as-compared-to-persians-and-ethnic-groups-in-west-asia/

https://i1.wp.com/eurasiandna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/FC1F18B8-012C-431B-AFC1-EF6220AB679B.jpeg?resize=717%2C1024&ssl=1

How can Kabardins ( a Eastern Circassian Tribe) and Abkhazians ( Southern neighbours of Circassians and from same language family) score %88-94 in that table but Circassians score literally %0 ? Explain please, how can that even be possible?

[Zoro]

I wonder if Turks (from Turkey) being partly Anatolian/Med has something to do with them clustering so far away from Central Asiatic populations or if the samples are just bad. Both possibilities have to be considered

Turkey is a mixing bowl there’s quite a bit of variation in C Asian ancestry. I think more Turks from various tribes should be used in papers just like more kurds and Azeris (that’s why Dilawer is doing his research). I think there’s plenty of Turks with higher C Asian shift than what we see in the papers. As to what percentage no idea

[Zoro]

https://i1.wp.com/eurasiandna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/FC1F18B8-012C-431B-AFC1-EF6220AB679B.jpeg?resize=717%2C1024&ssl=1

How can Kabardins ( a Eastern Circassian Tribe) and Abkhazians ( Southern neighbours of Circassians and from same language family) score %88-94 in that table but Circassians score literally %0 ? Explain please, how can that even be possible?


This is Harvard’s Scythian paper. You can ask them

[Zoro]

Although i’m not privy to Dilawer’s research details, i do know that the latest is Iraqi Kurds can’t simply be modelled as Iran-Chl + Steppe-IA (Parthian/Scythian/Sarmatian). They also need Levant-Chl.

[Zoro]

This is Harvard’s Scythian paper. You can ask them

I noticed in that paper that some ethnic groups were assigned relatedness to Scythians due to sharing ancestral components with Scythians and some such as in the table above were assigned relatedness due to descent from Scythians.

This type of analysis to differentiate from sharing vs descent is very difficult and sometimes there's a little uncertainty in the findings.

For example when a European tests using an admixture calculator the Steppe % they get some of it is due to descent from Steppe and some of it is because Steppe and Europeans share WHG and EEF. Trying to separate the 2 is not as easy as it seems

[RatCat]

So Abkhazians and Kabardians score that much high because they have common steppe ancestry with Scythians but it's not from Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans because Circassians score %0 and i see Chechens score very low too.

So does that mean North Caucasians have steppe admixture but it's not from Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans, It's from a pre-Scythian(pre-Sarmatian/pre-Alan) Steppe population ?


I noticed in that paper that some ethnic groups were assigned relatedness to Scythians due to sharing ancestral components with Scythians and some such as in the table above were assigned relatedness due to descent from Scythians.

This type of analysis to differentiate from sharing vs descent is very difficult and sometimes there's a little uncertainty in the findings.

For example when a European tests using an admixture calculator the Steppe % they get some of it is due to descent from Steppe and some of it is because Steppe and Europeans share WHG and EEF. Trying to separate the 2 is not as easy as it seems

[Caucasianturkk]

You think like that Because you are %10 mongoloid kurd Which sounds strange.I think you should accept what you are.Kurds are average 3% mongoloid and They are not close to Central asian mongolians.

[Altaylı]

Maybe just eastern kurds(khorasani kurds) close to central asians(probably they mixed with Turkics) i dont think Mesopotamian kurds close to central asia

Also your y dna Q M25 and you are khorasani kurd. I think that is very atypical for kurds

[Zoro]

You think like that Because you are %10 mongoloid kurd Which sounds strange.I think you should accept what you are.Kurds are average 3% mongoloid and They are not close to Central asian mongolians.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or just misinformed because everything for you is based on Admixture calculators and G25. Well even though Admixture calculators and G25 are bible to you because that's all you know how to use, they are not used in the real scientific world to calculate E and W Eurasian.

First, you must define what you mean by E Eurasian (Btw AASI is also primarily E Eurasian). Do you define E. Eurasian as one of these:

-Devils Gate-EN
-Tiyanuan-UP
-Baikal-N
-Botai
Altai-MLBA
Chandman-IA
Chemurchek-SouthAltai
Early-Med-Turk
Early-Med-Uigur
Early-Xiongnu-rest
Early-Xiongnu-west
Fofonovo-EN
Kazakhstan-Nomad-Hun-Sarmatian
Kazakhstan-Sarmatian
Khovsgol-LBA
Late-Med-Khitan
Late-Med-Mongol
Late-Xiongnu
Late-Xiongnu-Han
Late-Xiongnu-Sarmatian
Ulaanzuukh-SlabGrave


Depending on which one you use Kurds will get different percentage.

AND YOU MUST use Iran-Chl and Levant-Chl for W Eurasian for Kurds AND your calculator must be formal stats based on 3 components. Any numbers you get otherwise are totally MEANINGLESS.

Do you seriously think Kurds would cluster with Chuvash based on the HLA PCA Kyp posted or with the other C. Asians in the papers cited by the article I posted or have some of those faces with only 3% E Eurasian !!!

[Zoro]

So Abkhazians and Kabardians score that much high because they have common steppe ancestry with Scythians but it's not from Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans because Circassians score %0 and i see Chechens score very low too.

So does that mean North Caucasians have steppe admixture but it's not from Scythians/Sarmatians/Alans, It's from a pre-Scythian(pre-Sarmatian/pre-Alan) Steppe population ?


The folks at Harvard should be asked since it's their paper but I think it's also possible that they only had 3 Sarmatian samples they used maybe with more Sarmatian samples from different areas results would be different but didn't they show Scythian descent for some N Caucasians

[Zoro]

Because Iran_Fars is turkic admixed on G25(few indiviuals from the sample size could have been Qashqai), here is a basic model:

My father:
Distance: 3.0318% / 0.03031753
Target: KypFather_scaled
32.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.5 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.7 KAZ_Karluk
11.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
10.3 GEO_CHG
1.8 Levant_Natufian
1.3 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Kurdish:
Distance: 2.8373% / 0.02837271
Target: Kurdish
33.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
29.3 TUR_Barcin_N
14.8 GEO_CHG
12.3 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
8.7 Levant_Natufian
1.3 KAZ_Karluk

Iran_Fars:
Distance: 2.6260% / 0.02625952
Target: Iranian_Fars
34.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
22.8 TUR_Barcin_N
14.7 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
11.4 GEO_CHG
9.1 Levant_Natufian
5.5 KAZ_Karluk
2.1 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Well I don't take G25 even 1% seriously for this type of work and hopefully you won't either based on what you'll find out reading scientific papers. The Karluk numbers are beyond ridiculous. Im sure your dads numbers are off too

Anyways, I had this qpAdm run done on one of my 100% Kurmanji relatives who did WGS. Many precautions were taken running qpAdm and they included:

- Discarding all lower quality ancients from each population
- Using a dataset of 4 million SNPs
- Using enough reference pright populations to ensure that the sources Iran-Chl, Levant-N and Hun-TS can be adequately distinguished

As you can see an excellent passing p-value of 0.42 was obtained.

The proportions were 47.8% Iran-Chl + 18.1% Levant-N + 34.1% Hun-TianShan (the best quality Hun sample was picked out of 10) and the very best Iran-Chl sample was used

So the 34% Steppe-IA represents the population that mixed with 5000 year persians and changed the language of the Kurds to Indo-Iranian and their genetics from the language and genetics of the Zagrosian farmers


### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
indivname: MASTER1_4M_3400samples.ind
snpname: MASTER1_4M_3400samples.snp
genotypename: MASTER1_4M_3400samples.geno
popleft: pleft4
popright: pright2
details: YES
numthreads: 8
## qpAdm version: 634
seed: 1984220565

left pops:
.Kurd-Kurmanji_WGS_4M_REF_ALT
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349
Israel_PPNB
Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101

right pops:
Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan
DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Anatolia_N_high
EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Loschbour
KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS
Russia_Sunghir6
BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID
YANA_UP_WGS

0 .Kurd-Kurmanji_WGS_4M_REF_ALT 1
1 Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 1
2 Israel_PPNB 1
3 Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 1
4 Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan 4
5 DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS 1
6 Iran_GanjDareh_N 3
7 Anatolia_N_high 5
8 EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 1
9 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 4
10 Loschbour 1
11 KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1
12 Russia_Sunghir6 1
13 BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 1
14 YANA_UP_WGS 2
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 4381180 indivs: 28
number of blocks for block jackknife: 41
## ncols: 4381180
coverage: .Kurd-Kurmanji_WGS_4M_REF_ALT 4317436
coverage: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 866482
coverage: Israel_PPNB 713243
coverage: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 1029600
coverage: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan 3564437
coverage: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS 1811455
coverage: Iran_GanjDareh_N 1015050
coverage: Anatolia_N_high 1113606
coverage: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 1035964
coverage: Morocco_Iberomaurusian 1064642
coverage: Loschbour 1561175
coverage: KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 2465443
coverage: Russia_Sunghir6 1100721
coverage: BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 1032152
coverage: YANA_UP_WGS 2520995
dof (jackknife): 27.572
numsnps used: 372301
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 8 chisq: 8.048 tail: 0.4288343 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: -8.048 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS 1.629 0.230
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.226 -1.664
Anatolia_N_high -0.239 1.087
EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 1.293 -0.230
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.096 2.263
Loschbour 0.682 0.608
KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.586 -0.154
Russia_Sunghir6 0.417 0.177
BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 1.327 -0.501
YANA_UP_WGS 0.803 0.387
A:
scale 611.167 1690.907
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 -0.686 -0.843
Israel_PPNB -0.789 1.456
Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 1.381 0.410


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 8 chisqdiff: 8.048 taildiff: 0.4288343
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS 1.649 0.451 -0.805
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.244 -1.524 1.333
Anatolia_N_high -0.249 1.113 -1.381
EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 1.252 0.071 1.966
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.123 2.273 -0.622
Loschbour 0.671 0.803 0.374
KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.576 -0.030 -0.397
Russia_Sunghir6 0.392 0.357 0.415
BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 1.346 -0.273 0.861
YANA_UP_WGS 0.822 0.464 -0.455
A:
scale 607.785 1791.018 6798.704
Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 -0.530 -1.125 -0.836
Israel_PPNB -0.753 1.291 -1.257
Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 1.467 0.259 -0.850


best coefficients: 0.478 0.181 0.341
Jackknife mean: 0.481634722 0.178602379 0.339762899
std. errors: 0.072 0.048 0.041

error covariance (* 1000000)
5133 -2883 -2250
-2883 2332 552
-2250 552 1698


summ: .Kurd-Kurmanji_WGS_4M_REF_ALT 3 0.428834 0.482 0.179 0.340 5133 -2883 -2250 2332 552 1698

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 8 8.048 0.428834 0.478 0.181 0.341
001 1 9 69.094 2.29109e-11 0.895 0.105 0.000
010 1 9 26.540 0.00166579 0.688 -0.000 0.312
100 1 9 51.377 5.92831e-08 -0.000 0.453 0.547
011 2 10 74.137 7.00399e-12 1.000 -0.000 0.000
101 2 10 339.874 0 0.000 1.000 0.000
110 2 10 187.176 0 0.000 -0.000 1.000
best pat: 000 0.428834 - -
best pat: 010 0.00166579 chi(nested): 18.493 p-value for nested model: 1.70567e-05
best pat: 011 7.00399e-12 chi(nested): 47.596 p-value for nested model: 5.23642e-12

coeffs: 0.478 0.181 0.341

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS -0.001680 -3.079208
details: Israel_PPNB DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS -0.001575 -2.807278
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS 0.004468 6.575205
dscore: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS f4: 0.000435 Z: 0.812588

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000333 0.923002
details: Israel_PPNB Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001805 -4.421013
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000135 0.316364
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.000121 Z: -0.369907

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 Anatolia_N_high -0.000591 -1.505123
details: Israel_PPNB Anatolia_N_high 0.001231 2.683682
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 Anatolia_N_high -0.000337 -0.790339
dscore: Anatolia_N_high f4: -0.000175 Z: -0.487764

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 -0.001660 -4.380684
details: Israel_PPNB EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 -0.001986 -4.909168
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 0.002687 6.119706
dscore: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 f4: -0.000237 Z: -0.744609

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.001251 -3.809434
details: Israel_PPNB Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.002027 4.848984
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.000192 0.442516
dscore: Morocco_Iberomaurusian f4: -0.000166 Z: -0.505881

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 Loschbour -0.001251 -3.726139
details: Israel_PPNB Loschbour -0.000362 -0.740021
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 Loschbour 0.001569 3.072893
dscore: Loschbour f4: -0.000129 Z: -0.370059

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS -0.001499 -3.407420
details: Israel_PPNB KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS -0.001917 -4.294004
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 0.004063 7.765429
dscore: KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS f4: 0.000322 Z: 0.781523

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 Russia_Sunghir6 -0.000934 -2.043813
details: Israel_PPNB Russia_Sunghir6 -0.000404 -0.810819
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 Russia_Sunghir6 0.000970 2.027112
dscore: Russia_Sunghir6 f4: -0.000189 Z: -0.470901

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID -0.001324 -3.113757
details: Israel_PPNB BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID -0.002178 -5.216768
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.003182 7.478252
dscore: BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID f4: 0.000058 Z: 0.173811

details: Iran_C_HajjiFiruz_I4349 YANA_UP_WGS -0.001078 -3.147779
details: Israel_PPNB YANA_UP_WGS -0.000663 -1.491533
details: Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun_DA101 YANA_UP_WGS 0.002117 5.139695
dscore: YANA_UP_WGS f4: 0.000087 Z: 0.281325

gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS 0.813
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.370
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan Anatolia_N_high -0.488
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 -0.745
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.506
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan Loschbour -0.370
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 0.782
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan Russia_Sunghir6 -0.471
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.174
gendstat: Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan YANA_UP_WGS 0.281
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.265
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS Anatolia_N_high -1.515
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 -1.758
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS Morocco_Iberomaurusian -1.451
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS Loschbour -1.245
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS -0.269
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS Russia_Sunghir6 -1.404
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID -1.058
gendstat: DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS YANA_UP_WGS -0.832
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Anatolia_N_high -0.197
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 -0.409
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.148
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Loschbour -0.022
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.253
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Sunghir6 -0.223
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.565
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N YANA_UP_WGS 0.753
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 -0.285
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.031
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high Loschbour 0.167
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.289
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high Russia_Sunghir6 -0.056
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.843
gendstat: Anatolia_N_high YANA_UP_WGS 0.915
gendstat: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 0.252
gendstat: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 Loschbour 0.363
gendstat: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.786
gendstat: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 Russia_Sunghir6 0.157
gendstat: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 1.132
gendstat: EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2 YANA_UP_WGS 1.136
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Loschbour 0.103
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.423
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian Russia_Sunghir6 -0.065
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.675
gendstat: Morocco_Iberomaurusian YANA_UP_WGS 0.754
gendstat: Loschbour KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS 1.221
gendstat: Loschbour Russia_Sunghir6 -0.199
gendstat: Loschbour BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.592
gendstat: Loschbour YANA_UP_WGS 0.728
gendstat: KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS Russia_Sunghir6 -1.339
gendstat: KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID -0.733
gendstat: KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS YANA_UP_WGS -0.647
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir6 BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID 0.800
gendstat: Russia_Sunghir6 YANA_UP_WGS 0.909
gendstat: BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID YANA_UP_WGS 0.128

## end of run

[Chelubey]

My old theory was that the phenomenon of Iranian nomadic groups is based mainly on a Turkic / Hunnic / Scythian substrate. This theory has just been confirmed over time. The entry of the Turkic tribes into the Afghan tribes can be considered a documented fact.
Kurdish ethnogenesis is not entirely clear, it is only known that the Turkic tribes assimilated part of the Kurds, and the Kurds assimilated part of the Turkic tribes (It is also known that the Kurds have a substrate Turkic suffix -lu).
Possibly, the proximity of the Tajik-Shugnans to the steppe groups is explained by their origin from the Xiongnu (the self-name of the Shugnans is "Hugni, Hugnuni" - some researchers pay attention to these connections).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D1%8B
Avestan Chionites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites
Pay attention to the Sogdian form "xwn" - this name the Sogdians used for marking the Turkic tribes in the Middle Ages.

[Zoro]

My old theory was that the phenomenon of Iranian nomadic groups is based mainly on a Turkic / Hunnic / Scythian substrate. This theory has just been confirmed over time. The entry of the Turkic tribes into the Afghan tribes can be considered a documented fact.
Kurdish ethnogenesis is not entirely clear, it is only known that the Turkic tribes assimilated part of the Kurds, and the Kurds assimilated part of the Turkic tribes (It is also known that the Kurds have a substrate Turkic suffix -lu).
Possibly, the proximity of the Tajik-Shugnans to the steppe groups is explained by their origin from the Xiongnu (the self-name of the Shugnans is "Hugni, Hugnuni" - some researchers pay attention to these connections).
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A8%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%86%D1%8B
Avestan Chionites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xionites
Pay attention to the Sogdian form "xwn" - this name the Sogdians used for marking the Turkic tribes in the Middle Ages.

Yes indeed such a low chisq for Shugnans would indicate a very high percentage of descent (>70%) from individuals related to that particular Xiongnu-Sarmatian. I say particular because based on those qpWave tables posted at Eurasiandna it is quite clear that Sarmatians, Scythians, Huns were extremely hetrogenous with the amount of Chalcolithic Iranic / BMAC type ancestry and Turkic type ancestry fluctuating greatly from individual to individual.

We say based on all those samples that some W Kazakhstan samples can be more E Eurasian than some Mongolian samples and visa versa.

Obviously when Turkics mixed with Iranics in Mongolia and Kazakhstan the Iranics became more Turkic and the Turkics became more Iranic.

The situation with Kurds is indeed very complicated and messy just like with the Sarmatians, Parthians and Scythians. Analysis shows a big haplotype diversity among kurds.

Based on all the ancient samples we have and based on linguistics and archeology it looks like 5000 years ago sheep herders roamed the Zagros mountains who were a mixture of Anatolia-N, Iran-N, Armenia-Chl. Those people would have spoken something very different from current Iranic languages. Kurd ethnicity did not even exist at that time.

Kurds and other Iranics were born when Samatians/Scythians descended upon the current E Iran/Afghanistan area and started hybridizing with the Iranian 5000 year old herders. The Parthians were thus born out of this mixing and spoke something close to current Kurdish. When those nomadic Parthians moved into W Iran, the nomadic Kurds were born around 2000 years ago.

However since 2000 years ago other waves of Turkics have traversed the Kurdistan area. Subsequently Kurds moved into Turkey and Syria.

Then you have Iraqi Turkmen. I believe that 700 years ago they had higher E Eurasian levels but since then after mixing with the Kurds in Iraq and others their E Eurasian levels went down and the population they mixed with their E Eurasian went up. Whenever you have mixing both parties gain and lose a little admixture and with sufficient mixing over time they become the same genetically.

Basically with all these mixing events over the past 3000 years in the Steppes and Iran plateau Turkics became more Iranic and Iranics more Turkic. You notice I say Sarmatians, Scythians brought Indo-European languages into Iran around 2500 years ago. The reason is 2500 years ago pure Sintashta did not exist in the areas bordering Iran and Afghanistan.

[Chelubey]

Obviously when Turkics mixed with Iranics in Mongolia and Kazakhstan the Iranics became more Turkic and the Turkics became more Iranic.

Ok.According to your hypothesis, will all the origins of all Turkic subclades z-93/94 be found in Kazakhstan and Mongolia?

[PaleoEuropean]

That is partially due to the large influx of Indo-Aryans and Iranians that fled central Asia during the Mongol invasions.

[Mejgusu]

This thread must be a joke. .


However since 2000 years ago other waves of Turkics have traversed the Kurdistan area. Subsequently Kurds moved into Turkey and Syria.

I dont know where i should start to count all the nonsense in this single sentence. There werent any Turkic waves to Middle east 2000 years ago, another unscientific comment like most of your posts her in this thread.