Fatyanovo-Balanovo autosomal results?

[Tanais]

Do we have? If not, why? If yes, why aren’t they published yet? If not, why haven’t they been analysed yet? Does it have anything to do with R1a-Z93 and modern non-IE Volga populations?

Why there is no progress since years now?

https://s12.directupload.net/images/201221/6v9xsirx.jpg
https://s12.directupload.net/images/201221/dcmvo4l7.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

ANSWER: in the footprints of Turanian Yakutia
not deserved to be seen

[vbnetkhio]

Do we have? If not, why? If yes, why aren’t they published yet? If not, why haven’t they been analysed yet? Does it have anything to do with R1a-Z93 and modern non-IE Volga populations?

Why there is no progress since years now?

https://s12.directupload.net/images/201221/6v9xsirx.jpg
https://s12.directupload.net/images/201221/dcmvo4l7.jpg

they were tested as r1a-z93, autosomally identical to Corded ware. and they are probably the ancestors of all r1a-z93 today.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20920-Genetic-ancestry-changes-in-Stone-to-Bronze-Age-transition-in-the-East-European-plain&

[Leto]

Those bloody prehistoric Russian Aryans :cool:

[Tanais]

Those bloody prehistoric Russian Aryans :cool:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MarriedSnappyGrosbeak-size_restricted.gif
https://i.imgur.com/WPwYNeA.png

WHG-EHG Chyurka-mix thinks he is Aryan, how cute is that xD

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce23aca1b1b1c6817eda8432c7e630f9/tenor.gif

[vbnetkhio]

you got something wrong, modern people descend from ancient ones, not the other way around.

[cass]

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/proceedings-of-the-prehistoric-society/article/abs/forgotten-child-of-the-wider-corded-ware-family-russian-fatyanovo-culture-in-context/6309A60F638130BF6F7FD96135AA1B37
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.02.184507v1.full.pdf

[Arhat]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MarriedSnappyGrosbeak-size_restricted.gif
https://i.imgur.com/WPwYNeA.png

WHG-EHG Chyurka-mix thinks he is Aryan, how cute is that xD

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce23aca1b1b1c6817eda8432c7e630f9/tenor.gif

You are neither russian nor Indo-Iranian so where comes your interest for Fatyanovo if not for trolling. I doubt you are R1a-Z93 or Indo-Iranian s9 dont act like some kind of "SuperAryan". Also Global25 is effected by drift so Slavs as being highly drifted/inbred look more distant from ancient populations than West Europeans
Without the recent genetic drift West Russians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Scandinavians are around 60-80% Sintashta-like depending on which Sintashta samples you take as reference but it seems to be highest among West Russuans from Tver to Kursk.

Netherless Fatyanovo directly contributed only to modern day Indo-Iranians and Volga Finns. Slavs and Germanics are descendants of super closely related cousins of Fatyanovo.

[Leto]

You are neither russian nor Indo-Iranian so where comes your interest for Fatyanovo if not for trolling. I doubt you are R1a-Z93 or Indo-Iranian s9 dont act like some kind of "SuperAryan". Also Global25 is effected by drift so Slavs as being highly drifted/inbred look more distant from ancient populations than West Europeans
Without the recent genetic drift West Russians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians and Scandinavians are around 60-80% Sintashta-like depending on which Sintashta samples you take as reference but it seems to be highest among West Russuans from Tver to Kursk.

Netherless Fatyanovo directly contributed only to modern day Indo-Iranians and Volga Finns. Slavs and Germanics are descendants of super closely related cousins of Fatyanovo.
Nice to see you back, man! I don't know the OP and his problem with me but he seems to have misunderstood me. First of all, I was being half serious. Secondly the FB lived in modern Russia exclusively. And thirdly they were undoubtedly Indo-European, so kinda of 'Aryan-ish'. I agree that Mordovians are supposed to have some of their ancestry when it comes to Russia.

[Arhat]

duplicate

[Arhat]

Nice to see you back, man! I don't know the OP and his problem with me but he seems to have misunderstood me. First of all, I was being half serious. Secondly the FB lived in modern Russia exclusively. And thirdly they were undoubtedly Indo-European, so kinda of 'Aryan-ish'. I agree that Mordovians are supposed to have some of their ancestry when it comes to Russia.


We have Global25 coordinates for one Fatyanovo sample and this are modern East Europeans in terms of Fatyanovo-like affinity. Obviously these is indirect Fatyanovo-like ancestry from other CWC groups but Fatyanovo and the ancestors of other North Europeans were genetic clones with only slightly different Y-DNA, so Fatyanovo-Sintashta can be used to model the steppe ancestry of Russians, Germanics and Balts.
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/iTmOKNT" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/iTmOKNT"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Leto]

We have Global25 coordinates for one Fatyanovo sample and this are modern East Europeans in terms of Fatyanovo-like affinity. Obviously these is indirect Fatyanovo-like ancestry from other CWC groups but Fatyanovo and the ancestors of other North Europeans were genetic clones with only slightly different Y-DNA, so Fatyanovo-Sintashta can be used to model the steppe ancestry of Russians, Germanics and Balts.

Cool, I wonder what I would score with that run. I have coordinates. However the distances are rather big.

[Arhat]

Cool, I wonder what I would score with that run. I have coordinates. However the distances are rather big.

In the case of Balto-Slavs the distances will be always big with all ancient references predating the emerging of Balto-Slavs because of Balto-Slavic drift (basically Balto-Slavs were long inbred and kept to themselves so that they have mutations/admixture looking as if it is from a new population even when it emerged without outer admixture). But based on qpAdm and uniparental markers northern Balto-Slavs are basically a mix of Steppe_MLBA, Globular_Amphora, Baltic_HG and something Nganasan-like so Global25 models should stick to these components. There is no direct EHG ancestry in East Europe even when it often shows up in Global25 vahaduo. Uniparental markers and qpAdm very much speak against that. But becasue of overfit in Global25 nmonte/vahaduo many think there is EHG ancestry among Russians what is not the case. EHG was replaced by Fatyanovo who was replaced by Finno-Ugrians and Baltic_BA which later were mostly replaced by Slavic settlers from the southwest.

[Leto]

In the case of Balto-Slavs the distances will be always big with all ancient references predating the emerging of Balto-Slavs because of Balto-Slavic drift (basically Balto-Slavs were long inbred and kept to themselves so that they have mutations/admixture looking as if it is from a new population even when it emerged without outer admixture). But based on qpAdm and uniparental markers northern Balto-Slavs are basically a mix of Steppe_MLBA, Globular_Amphora, Baltic_HG and something Nganasan-like so Global25 models should stick to these components. There is no direct EHG ancestry in East Europe even when it often shows up in Global25 vahaduo. Uniparental markers and qpAdm very much speak against that. But becasue of overfit in Global25 nmonte/vahaduo many think there is EHG ancestry among Russians what is not the case. EHG was replaced by Fatyanovo who was replaced by Finno-Ugrians and Baltic_BA which later were mostly replaced by Slavic settlers from the southwest.
Interesting, didn't know that. But they weren't totally replaced as far as I know. Because Finno-Ugric is largely a language thing, not genetic.

By the way you were (mis)quoted here by one user, I don't think you are unaware of widespread recent ancestry from Ukraine in Southern Russia (Krasnodar, Rostov, Voronezh, etc.)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338307-new-K13-model-for-SE-Europeans&p=7028612&viewfull=1#post7028612

[Arhat]

Interesting, didn't know that. But they weren't totally replaced as far as I know. Because Finno-Ugric is largely a language thing, not genetic.

By the way you were (mis)quoted here by one user, I don't think you are unaware of widespread recent ancestry from Ukraine in Southern Russia (Krasnodar, Rostov, Voronezh, etc.)
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338307-new-K13-model-for-SE-Europeans&p=7028612&viewfull=1#post7028612

The later the replacement was the more ancestry survived of course. So you have a big Finno-Ugrian substrate in most northern and eastern regions of European Russia but for example close to zero Volosovo ancestry in Russia. Direct Fatyanovo ancestry which arrived in the early Bronze Age from Ukraine/Belarus survived probably around 10-30% among Pre-Slavic Volga-Ural populations but even they seem to have much if not most of their Indo-European ancestry from Balto-Slavs. Mordovians for example seem to be 40-50% Proto-Slavic admixed. Udmurts, Tatars and Mari much less but many of them have some Slavic ancestry too.

Outside of Russia direct autosomal Fatyanovo ancestry is highest among Pamiri and some Indian Ror/Jatts with around 40% in some cases. Probably even higher than among most modern day Volga-Ural populations.

[Aren]

In the case of Balto-Slavs the distances will be always big with all ancient references predating the emerging of Balto-Slavs because of Balto-Slavic drift (basically Balto-Slavs were long inbred and kept to themselves so that they have mutations/admixture looking as if it is from a new population even when it emerged without outer admixture). But based on qpAdm and uniparental markers northern Balto-Slavs are basically a mix of Steppe_MLBA, Globular_Amphora, Baltic_HG and something Nganasan-like so Global25 models should stick to these components. There is no direct EHG ancestry in East Europe even when it often shows up in Global25 vahaduo. Uniparental markers and qpAdm very much speak against that. But becasue of overfit in Global25 nmonte/vahaduo many think there is EHG ancestry among Russians what is not the case. EHG was replaced by Fatyanovo who was replaced by Finno-Ugrians and Baltic_BA which later were mostly replaced by Slavic settlers from the southwest.

That's not really the case. Comb Ceramic Culture was largely EHG and existed even after the Corded Ware period.

[Arhat]

That's not really the case. Comb Ceramic Culture was largely EHG and existed even after the Corded Ware period.

Where? Comb Ceramic was replaced by Baltic CWC who got most of their HG ancestry from South Baltic HGs. Volosovo in Russia was already replaced by Fatyanovo which seemingly not mixed with them. Even Saami don't have direct EHG ancestry their HG ancestry is SHG-like

[Aren]

Where? Comb Ceramic was replaced by Baltic CWC who got most of their HG ancestry from South Baltic HGs. Volosovo in Russia was already replaced by Fatyanovo which seemingly not mixed with them. Even Saami don't have direct EHG ancestry their HG ancestry is SHG-like

The HG in Latvia and Estonia became more EHG-like with time. They co-existed with the CW in the Eastern Baltic until they were absorbed.
Not sure how the Saami can have SHG-like input when they emerged in southern Finland and we know the HG there were EHG(HG from Karelia), when they reached Scandinavia in the Middle Ages the SHG were long gone.

[Tanais]

We have Global25 coordinates for one Fatyanovo sample and this are modern East Europeans in terms of Fatyanovo-like affinity. Obviously these is indirect Fatyanovo-like ancestry from other CWC groups but Fatyanovo and the ancestors of other North Europeans were genetic clones with only slightly different Y-DNA, so Fatyanovo-Sintashta can be used to model the steppe ancestry of Russians, Germanics and Balts.
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/iTmOKNT" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/iTmOKNT"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Where can I find this Fatyanovo sample? I couldn’t find him in the G25 list.

[Proto-Shaman]

We have Global25 coordinates for one Fatyanovo sample and this are modern East Europeans in terms of Fatyanovo-like affinity. Obviously these is indirect Fatyanovo-like ancestry from other CWC groups but Fatyanovo and the ancestors of other North Europeans were genetic clones with only slightly different Y-DNA, so Fatyanovo-Sintashta can be used to model the steppe ancestry of Russians, Germanics and Balts.
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/iTmOKNT" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/iTmOKNT"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I waited for this, but I knew you are either a blatantly bad skilled liar or just foolish enough not to handle G25 calculations. Your self-declared method to change Target and Source and skip all other Baltic Meso and BA samples actually made no sense at all, but it's ok coz you can still draw something from it. This happens if you add the Turkic peoples into the whole story ;) It looks like Johannes Krause's IE Hybrid Theory was right. All Hail TurkoGERMANS Kura-Araxes ala post-sÜmer ;)
https://i.imgur.com/8oihq2J.png


Where can I find this Fatyanovo sample? I couldn’t find him in the G25 list.
This sample doesn't exist, he just relabled Sintashta into Fatyanovo.

[Arhat]

Where can I find this Fatyanovo sample? I couldn’t find him in the G25 list.


Davidski posted it on Eurogenes in the comment section


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:I20784,0.141141,0.117801,0.045632 ,0.07429,0.002462,0.022311,0.002115,0.012461,-0.00634,-0.032074,-0.004872,0.003147,-0.003271,-0.025735,0.007057,0.015248,0.010822,-0.004181,-0.008045,0.014882,0.00287,0.002597,-0.008627,0.003615,-0.008742

[Proto-Shaman]

Davidski posted it on Eurogenes in the comment section


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:I20784,0.141141,0.117801,0.045632 ,0.07429,0.002462,0.022311,0.002115,0.012461,-0.00634,-0.032074,-0.004872,0.003147,-0.003271,-0.025735,0.007057,0.015248,0.010822,-0.004181,-0.008045,0.014882,0.00287,0.002597,-0.008627,0.003615,-0.008742

Not better: https://i.imgur.com/LyedqOO.png Don't trust the Polak.
https://i.imgur.com/LyedqOO.png

[Leto]

G25 is a thing many people can twist to fit their agenda or personal taste. This thread clearly shows that.

[Proto-Shaman]

G25 is a thing many people can twist to fit their agenda or personal taste. This thread clearly shows that.
It wasn't me who twisted the G25 methods, it was Arhat. Don't bother other people with your filthy WHG brain.

[Leto]

It wasn't me who twisted the G25 methods, it was Arhat. Don't bother other people with your filthy WHG brain.
I didn't mention you specifically however I think the OP may be your sock puppet.

[Proto-Shaman]

I didn't mention you specifically however I think the OP may be your sock puppet.
Tanais used proper G25 results without twisting. If this makes him suspicious, it's up to you.

Let's end this Slavic Fat.Balanovo myth:
https://i.imgur.com/Ziw1D8L.png

[Kyp]

MUH ANCESTORS!

[Token]

Tanais used proper G25 results without twisting. If this makes him suspicious, it's up to you.

Let's end this Slavic Fat.Balanovo myth:
https://i.imgur.com/Ziw1D8L.png

Bronze Age Russians were most similar to Scandinavians, no surprise. Slavs are quite late newcomers to the region.

[Leto]

Tanais used proper G25 results without twisting. If this makes him suspicious, it's up to you.

Let's end this Slavic Fat.Balanovo myth:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Ziw1D8L.png
I don't think I ever said they were literally Slavic. But even your chart shows they were whites and not close to modern Z93 carriers. And they lived in modern European Russia.

[Arhat]

Bronze Age Russians were most similar to Scandinavians, no surprise. Slavs are quite late newcomers to the region.

It not works like that. Global25 is like Gedmatch but less so effected by recent drift. Slavs are extremely drifted so you can not model them with ancients and good fits before the Slavic drift existed (Late Bronze Age). You can try all Neolithic pops and always wil get worse fits for Slavs than for West Europeans who are less drifted. Sintashta like Fatyanovo was neither West or East European in terms of genetic drift and rather "generic/basal" North European but West Europeans are less drifted so they are prefered here. This not means West Europeans have more ancestry from them or are closer to them in term of real genetic affinity. QpAdm and formal methods rather show that North and East Europeans are very similar if not identical in terms of steppe affinity.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19fU2C2cdSdTYwvWFL2bMuIv5r6zmh5Nw7SbDYqOO4fE/edit#gid=1142599969

[Proto-Shaman]

I don't think I ever said they were literally Slavic. But even your chart shows they were whites and not close to modern Z93 carriers. And they lived in modern European Russia.
Sweden is full of Turanid faces your faggot. Nothing white at all. White is just an invention of stupid people with no ancestors. Basal Z93 proves it.

[Leto]

Sweden is full of Turanid faces your faggot. Nothing white at all. White is just an invention of stupid people with no ancestors. Basal Z93 proves it.
Okay, I won't be wasting any more time on a dipshit like you. Fuck right off.

[Arhat]

Tanais used proper G25 results without twisting. If this makes him suspicious, it's up to you.

Let's end this Slavic Fat.Balanovo myth:
https://i.imgur.com/Ziw1D8L.png

Nobody ever claimed here Fatyanovo was Slavic. The point is that Fatyanovo or Sintashta were in terms of genetic affinity closest to Central Russians not because of direct ancestry from them but because many Central Russians preserved Corded Ware ancestry in very high amounts similar to Scandinavians, Ukrainians/Poles and Balts. Fatyanovo itself was basically fully replaced from migrations from the west and east but Fatyanovo came from Corded Ware in Central-East Europe so Proto-Slavs as being CWC-derived and from Ukraine/Belarus were stil close to them even after 3000 years. So you had two very important migrations from the Middle Dnjepr region into Central Russia. One around 3000 B.C which was Proto-Indo-Iranian ( Fatyanovo) and one 3500 years later which was Proto-Slavic and brought Slavic languages to Russia. Obviously Proto-Slavs were not anymore identical to CWC groups from the Middle Dnyepr region 3500 years ago but still around 70% CWC-like with 20% extra Farmer and 10% extra HG ancestry.

[Proto-Shaman]

Nobody ever claimed here Fatyanovo was Slavic. The point is that Fatyanovo or Sintashta were in terms of genetic affinity closest to Central Russians not because of direct ancestry from them but because many Central Russians preserved Corded Ware ancestry in very high amounts similar to Scandinavians, Ukrainians/Poles and Balts. Fatyanovo itself was basically fully replaced from migrations from the west and east but Fatyanovo came from Corded Ware in Central-East Europe so Proto-Slavs as being CWC-derived and from Ukraine/Belarus were stil close to them even after 3000 years. So you had two very important migrations from the Middle Dnjepr region into Central Russia. One around 3000 B.C which was Proto-Indo-Iranian ( Fatyanovo) and one 3500 years later which was Proto-Slavic and brought Slavic languages to Russia. Obviously Proto-Slavs were not anymore identical to CWC groups from the Middle Dnyepr region 3500 years ago but still around 70% CWC-like with 20% extra Farmer and 10% extra HG ancestry.
The academic consensus is that Indo-European languages first spread into the Baltic region from the Eastern European steppes along with the Corded Ware culture (CWC) and its people during the Late Neolithic.
https://i.imgur.com/3x9qIx8.jpg

[Proto-Shaman]

I don't think I ever said they were literally Slavic. But even your chart shows they were whites and not close to modern Z93 carriers. And they lived in modern European Russia.
earliest white R1a in Europe
https://i.imgur.com/4dK8BHj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/9IGV1XL.jpg

SO WHITE that even Native Americans turned out Indo-European without being related to Turks. WHG-Churka time machine makes it possible.
https://i.imgur.com/w0vTrsd.jpg

[Token]

It not works like that. Global25 is like Gedmatch but less so effected by recent drift.
Based on what?


Slavs are extremely drifted so you can not model them with ancients and good fits before the Slavic drift existed (Late Bronze Age). You can try all Neolithic pops and always wil get worse fits for Slavs than for West Europeans who are less drifted.
That's what makes Bronze age Russians more similar to Scandinavians than to Slavs. Genetic drift is behind all genetic variation out there so you can't just choose to ignore it when it is convenient.


Sintashta like Fatyanovo was neither West or East European in terms of genetic drift and rather "generic/basal" North European but West Europeans are less drifted so they are prefered here
That's my point, Bronze Age Russians are closer to modern-day Scandinavians.


This not means West Europeans have more ancestry
I never said they did.


QpAdm and formal methods rather show that North and East Europeans are very similar if not identical in terms of steppe affinity.
Balto-Slavic drift pulls Slavs away from Bronze Age steppe people, so they are farther from them regardless of admixture proportions.

[Altaylı]

Those bloody prehistoric Russian Aryans :cool:

:rotfl:tHeY WeRe 300% purebred IrAnC ArIaN RuSKi LetO :rotfl:

probably northern europeans and some eurasian turkics(tatar karachay etc) are the closest to fatyanovo-basomething among modern people but i am not sure

[Leto]

:rotfl:
very good humor :thumb001:

tHeY WeRe 300% purebred IrAnC ArIaN RuSKi LetO :rotfl:
What the fuck are you doing on this forum, punk? You are not European and don't belong here. In fact you don't belong in Altai either, since they aren't Muslim turds like you. I don't care about you and wouldn't enage with you but it's not the first time you are provoking me first. Get the fuck outta here!

[Altaylı]

What the fuck are you doing on this forum, punk? You are not European and don't belong here. In fact you don't belong in Altai either, since they aren't Muslim turds like you. I don't care about you and wouldn't enage with you but it's not the first time you are provoking me first. Get the fuck outta here!

lol 20-25 years old man is crying like baby:rofl:
firstly you provoked me before you ruski aRiAn remember pls

[Arhat]

Based on what?


That's what makes Bronze age Russians more similar to Scandinavians than to Slavs. Genetic drift is behind all genetic variation out there so you can't just choose to ignore it when it is convenient.


That's my point, Bronze Age Russians are closer to modern-day Scandinavians.


I never said they did.


Balto-Slavic drift pulls Slavs away from Bronze Age steppe people, so they are farther from them regardless of admixture proportions.

No they are not because we talk here about ancestry and admixture. The drift is also causing the pseudo-EHG we see in so many Global25 models which neither fits uniparentals and historical evidence (EHG was already replaced by Fatyanovo and Finno-Ugrians, Balto-Slavs had only contact with Baltic HGs). Genetic drift among Slavs is higher and quite extreme because Balto-Slavs compared to West Europeans IEs were for the most time a much smaller population which quite recently exploded in numbers but this is not making some real genetic change or means it is all coming from new admixture. Global25 like Gedmatch calcs include modern drift to model modern admixture but these decreases the accurary of the models for ancient pops that is why many prefer QpAdm and formal methods for ancient pops which are less effected by drift. Fatyanovo-Sintashta predates both West Euro and East Euro drift so there is really no logic in saying they were much much closer to Scandinavians. The genetic differences between Scandinavians and Balto-Slavs without exotic admixture are mainly caused by drift which only started to form during the Bronze Age. Without drift Ukrainians cluster with Swedes. Also if anything East Europeans have an exiting Fatyanovo substrate even if mainly around 5-10% Scandinavians have none of it.

Here are Qpadm results from Davidski showing that steppe ancestry is very similar among East and West Euros

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/eCmH3lf" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/eCmH3lf"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[Leto]

Yes, I am Indo-European. Not Iranic, not Aryan (I joke about that sometimes, nothing serious). But Indo-European? Of course. And I was born in Moscow oblast which was part of the Fatyanovo area. I don't understand why Turks and others have a problem with me talking about it (without even understanding what's serious and what's humorous).

[Leto]

lol 20-25 years old man is crying like baby:rofl:
firstly you provoked me before you ruski aRiAn remember pls
Yes, I am Russian and Indo-European. I speak an IE language and belong to R1a. What's your problem with that? Do you even understand jokes or humorous comments?

[Rethel]

I confirm. Leto is a polrusski, heritable, native, even whitey, Indoeuropean. :p

[Leto]

I confirm. Leto is polrusski, heritable, native, even whitey, an Indoeuropean. :p
Don't mention me please, I dislike you too. It's better to ignore each other. Just like fucking Slavic Italian should finally stop stalking me like a damn fag (he sends me messages almost every day!)

[Altaylı]

Yes, I am Indo-European. Not Iranic, not Aryan (I joke about that sometimes, nothing serious). But Indo-European? Of course. And I was born in Moscow oblast which was part of the Fatyanovo area. I don't understand why Turks and others have a problem with me talking about it (without even understanding what's serious and what's humourous).

We Turks dont care you and other indo europeans you sometimes speak idiotic also you are too sensitive like a girl you are a man bro not a girl
you are taking jokes seriously too much

[Rethel]

too

Why too? What was unlikable in what I wrote?


Just like fucking Slavic Italian should finally stop stalking me like a damn fag (he sends me messages almost every day!)

He is very relevant here, really... :coffee:

[Token]

No they are not because we talk here about ancestry and admixture. The drift is also causing the pseudo-EHG we see in so many Global25 models which neither fits uniparentals and historical evidence (EHG was already replaced by Fatyanovo and Finno-Ugrians, Balto-Slavs had only contact with Baltic HGs). Genetic drift among Slavs is higher and quite extreme because Balto-Slavs compared to West Europeans IEs were for the most time a much smaller population which quite recently exploded in numbers but this is not making some real genetic change or means it is all coming from new admixture. Global25 like Gedmatch calcs include modern drift to model modern admixture but these decreases the accurary of the models for ancient pops that is why many prefer QpAdm and formal methods for ancient pops which are less effected by drift. Fatyanovo-Sintashta predates both West Euro and East Euro drift so there is really no logic in saying they were much much closer to Scandinavians. The genetic differences between Scandinavians and Balto-Slavs without exotic admixture are mainly caused by drift which only started to form during the Bronze Age. Without drift Ukrainians cluster with Swedes. Also if anything East Europeans have an exiting Fatyanovo substrate even if mainly around 5-10% Scandinavians have none of it.

Here are Qpadm results from Davidski showing that steppe affinity is very similar among East and West Euro

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/eCmH3lf" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/eCmH3lf"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

My statement has nothing to do with admixture proportions, you're going off on a tangent here. I'm still waiting for you to show me that the genetic distance between Scandinavians and Fatyanovo is equal to the genetic distance between Slavs and Fatyanovo. Till now you've failed to refute anything that i've written.

[Leto]

We Turks dont care you and other indo europeans you sometimes speak idiotic also you are too sensitive like a girl you are a man bro not a girl
you are taking jokes seriously too much
Well, yes, you are probably right. In my native language I almost never swear (only mildly) but I like doing it in English online.

Let's not turn this thread into a troll carnival, I already regret having posted that Aryan comment, lol

[Leto]

Why too? What was unlikable in what I wrote?



He is very relevant here, really... :coffee:
You ridiculed me, my family and my ethnicity in the past. Probably my religion too. I can forget that but I'd rather not talk to you anymore again.

[Arhat]

My statement has nothing to do with admixture proportions, you're going off on a tangent here. I'm still waiting for you to show me that the genetic distance between Scandinavians and Fatyanovo is equal to the genetic distance between Slavs and Fatyanovo. Till now, you've failed to refute anything that i've written.

The direct CWC R1a-Z283 ancestors of Balto-Slavs predating the drift event will also show on Gedmatch or even Global25 to be closer to Scandinavians despite contributing only directly and significantly to Balto-Slavs. Netherless the Fatyanovo sample is despite the drift only slightly closer to Swedes than to Russians (0,3-0,7) and both are with a distance of 7 not super close so no they were even with drift not much closer to Scandinavians. Argueing that Russians are on Global25 more distant to them because they arrived later is absurd because Scandinavians never existed in BA Central Russia in the first place. Fatyanovo has more connection with these Russians than with any Scandinavians but ultimately it is better described as basal North European because direct Fatyanovo ancestry not survived significantly in Europe.

[Leto]

I think the Corded were not identical to any modern population, for example they score more Gedrosia type of stuff than any modern European but at least it's safe to say the oldest R1a samples are said to have been found in Russia, Ukraine and I believe Estonia.

[Arhat]

I think the Corded were not identical to any modern population, for example they score more Gedrosia type of stuff than any modern European but at least it's safe to say the oldest R1a samples are said to have been found in Russia, Ukraine and I believe Estonia.

They had no Gedrosian ancestry rahther Neolithic/Mesolithic Caucasus stuff. The Gedrosian is an artificant of admixture calcs which can not correctly assign the CHG ancestry. CHG was way less EEF shifted than modern day Caucasians ancestry so it uses Gedrosian with low EEF to balance it.

Also the admixture components are mainly based on modern pops who themselves are a mix so Corded Ware can not be modelled accurately in some cases.

[Yamyam]

Gopnik-Europeans doesn't equal Indo-Europeans

[Leto]

They had no Gedrosian ancestry rahther Neolithic/Mesolithic Caucasus stuff. The Gedrosian is an artificant of admixture calcs which can not correctly assign the CHG ancestry. CHG was way less EEF shifted than modern day Caucasians ancestry so it uses Gedrosian with low EEF to balance it.

Also the admixture components are mainly based on modern pops who themselves are a mix so Corded Ware can not be modelled accurately in some cases.
That might be true. I don't dig that deep. What I still find fascinating is that samples from modern-day Kazakhstan can be fairly similar to samples from, say, Silesia. Considering the distance between those places that is almost mind-blowing. We're not talking 21st century when I can buy a ticket and land in fucking Tanzania or Cambodia tomorrow.

[Arhat]

That might be true. I don't dig that deep. What I still find fascinating is that samples from modern-day Kazakhstan can be fairly similar to samples from, say, Silesia. Considering the distance between those places that is almost mind-blowing. We're not talking 21st century when I can buy a ticket and land in fucking Tanzania or Cambodia tomorrow.

Yeah would not be surprised if we in the future find a Bronze Age sample from Kabul clustering with CWC in Germany lol. I think nobody expected Aryans coming from the forests of Moscow most archaelogists always assumed they most at least come from the southern steppes or so but it very much looks like that Aryans were a typical/generic CWC subgroup untill they adopted Yamnaya/Poltavka traditions around 2500 B.C and later BMAC stuff in Asia.

[Token]

That might be true. I don't dig that deep. What I still find fascinating is that samples from modern-day Kazakhstan can be fairly similar to samples from, say, Silesia. Considering the distance between those places that is almost mind-blowing. We're not talking 21st century when I can buy a ticket and land in fucking Tanzania or Cambodia tomorrow.

It is not like northern Central Asia was very populated at the time. The natives were essentially hunter-gatherers so Indo-Europeans met very little resistance in their trip from Eastern Europe to Kazakhstan. Things became more complicated when they began encountering proto-urban societies in Bactria and when they crossed the Hindu Kush.

[Arhat]

It is not like northern Central Asia was very populated at the time. The natives were essentially hunter-gatherers so Indo-Europeans met very little resistance in their trip from Eastern Europe to Kazakhstan. Things became more complicated when they began encountering proto-urban societies in Bactria and when they crossed the Hindu Kush.

This is very accurate of course. Also unlike popular myth there is not so much evidence for destruction/violence brought by Aryans at least in former BMAC rather they came as specialists for metallurgy and weaponry/chariots. They more or less copied the BMAC material culture almost fully so we find almost no archaeological traces of Andronovo south o BMAC but the language/religion/identity was still very steppic.

For the most time Aryans fought against each other and probably the endemic violence in the forest-steppe/steppes caused them to migrate also.

[Leto]

They had no Gedrosian ancestry rahther Neolithic/Mesolithic Caucasus stuff. The Gedrosian is an artificant of admixture calcs which can not correctly assign the CHG ancestry. CHG was way less EEF shifted than modern day Caucasians ancestry so it uses Gedrosian with low EEF to balance it.

Also the admixture components are mainly based on modern pops who themselves are a mix so Corded Ware can not be modelled accurately in some cases.
Can you tell me the reason why Pashtuns score 0-2% Atlantic Med in most cases? I mean if they are ca. 25% Corded-like, they should score more like 5% on average and not close to zero. If you run those BA samples you'll see they score about as much Atlantic Med as an average Russian. Tajiks are 4-5% AM on average, even Uzbeks score more than Pashtuns do.

[Arhat]

Can you tell me the reason why Pashtuns score 0-2% Atlantic Med in most cases? I mean if they are ca. 25% Corded-like, they should score more like 5% on average and not close to zero. If you run those BA samples you'll see they score about as much Atlantic Med as an average Russian. Tajiks are 4-5% AM on average, even Uzbeks score more than Pashtuns do.

Mhm the steppe and Atlantic-like stuff is probably not just in the obvious Euro components but also in the other components even South Asian hidden because they ae based on modern pops and even tribals in India have some tiny steppe admix often (+R1a). Gedrosian surely too because it is based on Baluchs who still have 10% steppe.

Also Pashtuns have often lot of Dardic admix which is often drifted ecause more inbred so these can create some chaos here.

[vbnetkhio]

If you run those BA samples you'll see they score about as much Atlantic Med as an average Russian.

I don't think Dodecad (or most other calcs, or maybe even g25) can handle Steppe samples properly. They have more ANE than any modern popualtion so the calcualtor struggles with assigning components to them.

[Token]

This is very accurate of course. Also unlike popular myth there is not so much evidence for destruction/violence brought by Aryans at least in former BMAC rather they came as specialists for metallurgy and weaponry/chariots. They more or less copied the BMAC material culture almost fully so we find almost no archaeological traces of Andronovo south o BMAC but the language/religion/identity was still very steppic.

For the most time Aryans fought against each other and probably the endemic violence in the forest-steppe/steppes caused them to migrate also.

With BMAC it seems to have been mostly a peaceful assimilation. On the other hand it does seems like Bronze Age violence played some role in the collapse of IVC, i don't buy the climate change narrative pushed especially by Indians.

[Aren]

<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/eCmH3lf" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/eCmH3lf"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
I remember this post. He made this after some people on Anthrogenica claimed that Western Europeans have more Steppe admixture and Balto-Slavs having significant post-GAC/post-CWC Hunter-Gatherer input. This run David made never made any sense to me. Why he would use almost a pure WHG from Hungary to model Balts and Slavs, when we know they originated somewhere around Belarus? Wouldn't the HG in contact be more similar to those from Ukraine(around 50/50 WHG/EHG)?
Just by looking at uniparental markers one clearly sees an increase of typically HG mtdna(U2, U4, U5) in Eastern Europe with a peak in the Baltics and Finland.

[Trouble]

This dumb argument again...

No, Slavs don't descend from Fatyanovo/Balanovo or Sintashta. No Europeans do because those cultures were heavily R1a-Z93, which is virtually unheard of outside of Asia. Yamnaya and eastern CWC died out without leaving much genetic traces on the modern people of the region-it seems they were fully replaced by Slavs because we don't see the kind of elevated steppe with regard to other European populations we would expect to see in that region. Eastern CWC and its offshoots were autosomally identical to western Corded Ware though.

Slavs(as well as Baltics) appear further from those groups than Scandinavian and Celtic groups do despite what intuition would lead you to believe but that's because as someone already mentioned, Slavs have substantial drift which makes it impossible to model them tightly with any groups that precede the proto-Slavic/Baltic drift-that includes CWC. Now I personally think that if it had not been for this drift, we MIGHT see that they are actually a bit closer to Sintashta and Fatyanovo than any western/northern Europeans are because they have lower ANF and higher EHG(Sintashta/CWC was higher EHG, lower ANF than modern Euros).

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 6.6948% / 0.06694775
40.2 TUR_Barcin_N
30.2 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
21.0 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
8.6 WHG

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 6.7353% / 0.06735341
37.0 TUR_Barcin_N
32.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
22.2 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
8.0 WHG

Target: Swedish
Distance: 5.9021% / 0.05902125
40.6 TUR_Barcin_N
27.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
20.4 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
11.2 WHG

Target: Irish
Distance: 6.3023% / 0.06302287
42.6 TUR_Barcin_N
24.2 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
22.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
10.4 WHG

Target: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
Distance: 4.3790% / 0.04379013
35.8 RUS_Vonyuchka_En
30.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
29.2 TUR_Barcin_N
4.6 WHG

[Token]

I remember this post. He made this after some people on Anthrogenica claimed that Western Europeans have more Steppe admixture and Balto-Slavs having significant post-GAC/post-CWC Hunter-Gatherer input. This run David made never made any sense to me. Why he would use almost a pure WHG from Hungary to model Balts and Slavs, when we know they originated somewhere around Belarus? Wouldn't the HG in contact be more similar to those from Ukraine(around 50/50 WHG/EHG)?
Just by looking at uniparental markers one clearly sees an increase of typically HG mtdna(U2, U4, U5) in Eastern Europe with a peak in the Baltics and Finland.

He tried adding Karelia_HG to model Poles and it was rejected completely, so at least among Poles there is no extra EHG. He probably used Koros_HG because it is one of the few high-quality diploid HG genotypes avaiable for now, there isn't a lot of option out there.

[Aren]

He tried adding Karelia_HG to model Poles and it was rejected completely, so at least among Poles there is no extra EHG. He probably used Koros_HG because it is one of the few high-quality diploid HG genotypes avaiable for now, there isn't a lot of option out there.
I find it very hard to believe that the Volosovo, Narva Kunda, Comb Ceramic etc all just vanished and didn't contribute at all to the succeeding cultures. In Western and Central Europe the HG:s were absorbed and contributed upwards 50% of the genome certain of TRB groups in Northern Germany/Netherlands. Farmers never reached the area where Balto-Slavs are believed to have formed(Belarus and adjacent areas), farming was instead introduced by the CWC and we see in the CWC samples from the Baltics and Poland that there is extra HG input other than what they received from the GAC farmers, as one would've expected. So why wouldn't modern day East/Northeast Euros have it too?

[Token]

I find it very hard to believe that the Volosovo, Narva Kunda, Comb Ceramic etc all just vanished and didn't contribute at all to the succeeding cultures. In Western and Central Europe the HG:s were absorbed and contributed upwards 50% of the genome certain of TRB groups in Northern Germany/Netherlands. Farmers never reached the area where Balto-Slavs are believed to have formed(Belarus and adjacent areas), farming was instead introduced by the CWC and we see in the CWC samples from the Baltics and Poland that there is extra HG input other than what they received from the GAC farmers, as one would've expected. So why wouldn't modern day East/Northeast Euros have it too?
Davidski suggests that Baltic_BA may represent a new population coming from the south. That'd be one possibility to consider. What surprised me more is how North Russians and Karelians can be modelled with very good fits as North Euro + Baikal_EBA with no additional EHG.

[vbnetkhio]

He tried adding Karelia_HG to model Poles and it was rejected completely, so at least among Poles there is no extra EHG. He probably used Koros_HG because it is one of the few high-quality diploid HG genotypes avaiable for now, there isn't a lot of option out there.

I was convinced there is something wrong with this model, and it contradicts all other methods like PCA and admixture, but then I checked again.

https://i.imgur.com/BSijLMB.png

Balts really seem like Corded Ware mixed with almost pure WHGs, and all those EHG/ANE shifted Baltic hunter gatherers left almost no genetic trace?

[vbnetkhio]

This dumb argument again...

No, Slavs don't descend from Fatyanovo/Balanovo or Sintashta. No Europeans do because those cultures were heavily R1a-Z93, which is virtually unheard of outside of Asia. Yamnaya and eastern CWC died out without leaving much genetic traces on the modern people of the region-it seems they were fully replaced by Slavs because we don't see the kind of elevated steppe with regard to other European populations we would expect to see in that region. Eastern CWC and its offshoots were autosomally identical to western Corded Ware though.

Slavs(as well as Baltics) appear further from those groups than Scandinavian and Celtic groups do despite what intuition would lead you to believe but that's because as someone already mentioned, Slavs have substantial drift which makes it impossible to model them tightly with any groups that precede the proto-Slavic/Baltic drift-that includes CWC. Now I personally think that if it had not been for this drift, we MIGHT see that they are actually a bit closer to Sintashta and Fatyanovo than any western/northern Europeans are because they have lower ANF and higher EHG(Sintashta/CWC was higher EHG, lower ANF than modern Euros).


I don't think Balto-Slavs are extremely drifted compared to other European populations. It's just exaggerated in G25 because Davidski made it that way on purpose:


Several of the dimensions, for instance, reflect Balto-Slavic-specific genetic drift. I ensured that this would be the case by running a lot of Slavic groups in the analysis. A useful by-product of this strategy is that the Global25 is very good at exposing relatively recent intra-European genetic variation.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/05/global25-workshop-2-intra-european.html

[Rethel]

You ridiculed me, my family and my ethnicity in the past.

Because you didn't want to admit, that you are not a Russki.
Being ashamed of who you really are is not honorable, and
especially not honouring the forefathers is disgraceful...


Probably my religion too.

What? Orthodoxy? Because I said the truth? The truth that orthodox priests are completly compromise apostates
not only because are ultra idolateres, but especially because were tools of satanic communist system, and still are?
Or, that you, who laudly proclaimed yourself a christian is a hypocrite, as you did follow racist and communist ideas?


I can forget that but I'd rather not talk to you anymore again.

So, you want here underline again, how hypocritic christian you are (or you maybe don't even know, what
it means to be a christian?), and then, after hearing this, be able to get the hump and play being offended? :confused:

[Kaazi]

With BMAC it seems to have been mostly a peaceful assimilation. On the other hand it does seems like Bronze Age violence played some role in the collapse of IVC, i don't buy the climate change narrative pushed especially by Indians.

The decline of Indus was the result of multiple factors such as climate change, diseases (like leprosy, tuberculosis) and violence. Leprosy was very high in the Area G burial.

The climate change narrative is published by John L Brooke (2014) who's a Western author. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3866234/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event


Thus it seems that this "first urbanisation" in South Asia was the initial response of the Indus Valley peoples to the beginning of Late Holocene aridification. These cities were maintained for 300 to 400 years and then gradually abandoned as the Harappan peoples resettled in scattered villages in the eastern range of their territories, into the Punjab and the Ganges Valley.

Violence played some part after the aridification event imo.
The hymns in Rigveda indicates that Indra and his followers were violent fort-destroyers ('Purandara') who slayed the demon 'Bala-Asura'. Rigvedic tribes were mentioned to have done cattle-raiding ('Gavisti') which portrays endemic warfare. Moreover, the battle of the ten kings (Dāśarājñá Yuddhá) shows grand warfare and power struggle within various early Vedic tribes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings

[Kaazi]

Works well like Sintashta. Some prefer it over Sintashta.
104978
https://i.imgur.com/F2Tr4xp.jpg
Removing WSHG.
104979
https://i.imgur.com/VOCVqOC.jpg

[Token]

The decline of Indus was the result of multiple factors such as climate change, diseases (like leprosy, tuberculosis) and violence. Leprosy was very high in the Area G burial.

The climate change narrative is published by John L Brooke (2014) who's a Western author. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3866234/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event


Violence played some part after the aridification event imo.
The hymns in Rigveda indicates that Indra and his followers were violent fort-destroyers ('Purandara') who slayed the demon 'Bala-Asura'. Rigvedic tribes were mentioned to have done cattle-raiding ('Gavisti') which portrays endemic warfare. Moreover, the battle of the ten kings (Dāśarājñá Yuddhá) shows grand warfare and power struggle within various early Vedic tribes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ten_Kings

My point is that the ones who push climatic change as the sole reason for the collapse of IVC are almost invariably Hindu nationalists trying to deny the fact of the Aryan invasion. I agree with you that ultimately multiple factors led to the collapse, and aridification was certainly one of them. The Aryans surely wouldn't have been able to affront Harappan at its peak - they probably crossed the mountain corridor well aware that Harappan was in decline, and took advantage of that. Indo-Europeans had a long history of being opportunists and information about the situation in India would have been roaming around Central Asia through its extensive trade routes. The plenty of references to the destruction of fortresses and slandering of the Dasa in early Rigvedic hymns is surely a memory of these times.

[vbnetkhio]

The direct CWC R1a-Z283 ancestors of Balto-Slavs predating the drift event will also show on Gedmatch or even Global25 to be closer to Scandinavians despite contributing only directly and significantly to Balto-Slavs. Netherless the Fatyanovo sample is despite the drift only slightly closer to Swedes than to Russians (0,3-0,7) and both are with a distance of 7 not super close so no they were even with drift not much closer to Scandinavians. Argueing that Russians are on Global25 more distant to them because they arrived later is absurd because Scandinavians never existed in BA Central Russia in the first place. Fatyanovo has more connection with these Russians than with any Scandinavians but ultimately it is better described as basal North European because direct Fatyanovo ancestry not survived significantly in Europe.



Slavs(as well as Baltics) appear further from those groups than Scandinavian and Celtic groups do despite what intuition would lead you to believe but that's because as someone already mentioned, Slavs have substantial drift which makes it impossible to model them tightly with any groups that precede the proto-Slavic/Baltic drift-that includes CWC. Now I personally think that if it had not been for this drift, we MIGHT see that they are actually a bit closer to Sintashta and Fatyanovo than any western/northern Europeans are because they have lower ANF and higher EHG(Sintashta/CWC was higher EHG, lower ANF than modern Euros).


Yes, according to G25 this drift is very extreme. But there is a way to reduce it.

on this PCA, Baltic_EST_BA should obviuosly be somewhere in between WHG, EEF and Corded ware, but it's outside the triangle, as if it was an ancient component of its' own:
https://i.imgur.com/tyDMAw4.png

but, what if take the full G25 sheet, exclude most modern European samples, and run a PCA on that?
https://i.imgur.com/rENhXJG.png

EEF is on the left, Steppe on the right, WHG on the top, all other Europeans (including the Baltic-drifted samples!) in between.

so, the information that Balts are a mix of older components is included in the G25 data after all, it's just burried under modern drifts.

We can now project modern European samples onto this new PCA to get the un-Balted version of their coordinates, and check their distance to the Fatyanovo sample:
https://i.imgur.com/CHkaogl.png

Fatyanovo is Corded Ware-like, which means it's close to both modern Northwest and Northeast Europeans, but both are around equally distant from it (because of extra EEF and WHG admixture)
But, interestingly, modern Russians, who are the modern group who could most likely have some direct Fatyanovo ancestry, end up the closest.

here are the the source samples I used, the un-balted version of the G25 spreadsheet, and a modified version of the Vahaduo PCA i used for this, you can run in it your web browser.

https://easyupload.io/wbnhz9

[Trouble]

Yes, according to G25 this drift is very extreme. But there is a way to reduce it.

on this PCA, Baltic_EST_BA should obviuosly be somewhere in between WHG, EEF and Corded ware, but it's outside the triangle, as if it was an ancient component of its' own:
https://i.imgur.com/tyDMAw4.png

but, what if take the full G25 sheet, exclude most modern European samples, and run a PCA on that?
https://i.imgur.com/rENhXJG.png

EEF is on the left, Steppe on the right, WHG on the top, all other Europeans (including the Baltic-drifted samples!) in between.

so, the information that Balts are a mix of older components is included in the G25 data after all, it's just burried under modern drifts.

We can now project modern European samples onto this new PCA to get the un-Balted version of their coordinates, and check their distance to the Fatyanovo sample:
https://i.imgur.com/CHkaogl.png

Fatyanovo is Corded Ware-like, which means it's close to both modern Northwest and Northeast Europeans, but both are around equally distant from it (because of extra EEF and WHG admixture)
But, interestingly, modern Russians, who are the modern group who could most likely have some direct Fatyanovo ancestry, end up the closest.

here are the the source samples I used, the un-balted version of the G25 spreadsheet, and a modified version of the Vahaduo PCA i used for this, you can run in it your web browser.

https://easyupload.io/wbnhz9

Excellent, but could you please make an average for all of those groups so I can run them against Sintashta? There are way too many individual samples.

[vbnetkhio]

Excellent, but could you please make an average for all of those groups so I can run them against Sintashta? There are way too many individual samples.

in that file are both modern and ancient averages and individuals. all together.

anyway here they are:
ancient averages(delete the pc1,2..):
https://pastebin.com/e8RskYp0

modern averages:
https://pastebin.com/QE1sRSmk

Sintashta is also of pretty much pure Corded-Ware descent afaik. Andronovo too.

[Trouble]

in that file are both modern and ancient averages and individuals. all together.

ancient averages(delete the pc1,2..):
https://pastebin.com/e8RskYp0

modern averages:
https://pastebin.com/QE1sRSmk

OK I see. You should have labeled them as "average"

Distance to: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.05194385 Russian_Kursk
0.05221063 Russian_Tver
0.05354139 Russian_Orel
0.05632986 Icelandic
0.05679269 Norwegian
0.05748393 Swedish
0.05878497 Ukrainian
0.05936293 Irish
0.05954282 Russian_Kostroma
0.06022995 Belarusian
0.06065090 Russian_Voronez
0.06079473 Russian_Smolensk
0.06169603 Scottish
0.06205062 Finnish
0.06831252 Latvian
0.07469697 Finnish_East
0.08159222 Russian_Pinega


Very good work. I will now try to model each of these populations using ancient components.

[Trouble]

Target: Latvian
Distance: 4.9720% / 0.04972001
49.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
19.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Finnish_East
Distance: 4.6555% / 0.04655509
33.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.2 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
8.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
6.4 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Finnish
Distance: 4.1753% / 0.04175254
37.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
5.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 4.3469% / 0.04346887
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
11.2 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 3.8680% / 0.03868032
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
44.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
6.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 4.2760% / 0.04276008
48.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
42.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.2 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 3.9973% / 0.03997349
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
9.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
2.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
2.0 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 4.3963% / 0.04396341
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
10.4 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 4.6625% / 0.04662529
36.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
12.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
10.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
9.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 3.8318% / 0.03831789
50.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA
0.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 3.8057% / 0.03805675
51.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
8.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.0 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 4.2034% / 0.04203367
45.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
6.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
5.8 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 2.7851% / 0.02785117
50.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
41.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Swedish
Distance: 3.0000% / 0.02999954
47.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
44.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 2.7457% / 0.02745734
47.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Scottish
Distance: 2.4080% / 0.02407967
52.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
45.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Irish
Distance: 2.5211% / 0.02521126
51.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

[vbnetkhio]

Target: Latvian
Distance: 4.9720% / 0.04972001
49.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
19.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Finnish_East
Distance: 4.6555% / 0.04655509
33.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.2 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
8.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
6.4 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Finnish
Distance: 4.1753% / 0.04175254
37.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
5.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 4.3469% / 0.04346887
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
11.2 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 3.8680% / 0.03868032
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
44.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
6.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 4.2760% / 0.04276008
48.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
42.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.2 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 3.9973% / 0.03997349
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
9.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
2.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
2.0 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 4.3963% / 0.04396341
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
10.4 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 4.6625% / 0.04662529
36.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
12.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
10.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
9.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 3.8318% / 0.03831789
50.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA
0.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 3.8057% / 0.03805675
51.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
8.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.0 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 4.2034% / 0.04203367
45.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
6.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
5.8 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 2.7851% / 0.02785117
50.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
41.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Swedish
Distance: 3.0000% / 0.02999954
47.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
44.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 2.7457% / 0.02745734
47.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Scottish
Distance: 2.4080% / 0.02407967
52.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
45.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Irish
Distance: 2.5211% / 0.02521126
51.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

distances are still a bit higher for East Eruopeans, but lower than in the original sheet, right?

[Trouble]

distances are still a bit higher for East Eruopeans, but lower than in the original sheet, right?

Yes, and more importantly they seem more accurate. Prior to it, Yamnaya was deflated for east Euros. Also, we can now clearly see that Finns are not as "steppe" as people claim.

[Dr_Maul]

Davidski posted it on Eurogenes in the comment section


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:I20784,0.141141,0.117801,0.045632 ,0.07429,0.002462,0.022311,0.002115,0.012461,-0.00634,-0.032074,-0.004872,0.003147,-0.003271,-0.025735,0.007057,0.015248,0.010822,-0.004181,-0.008045,0.014882,0.00287,0.002597,-0.008627,0.003615,-0.008742


What even is the Fatyanovo really? Is it just steppe?
Distance: 1.6783% / 0.01678252
Target: DrMaul
50.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
16.2 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
12.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
10.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
6.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN

[Trouble]

Fatyanovo is Corded Ware-like, which means it's close to both modern Northwest and Northeast Europeans, but both are around equally distant from it (because of extra EEF and WHG admixture)
But, interestingly, modern Russians, who are the modern group who could most likely have some direct Fatyanovo ancestry, end up the closest.

Could be. But it might just be that they have just the right ancestry proportions to make it *appear* so. I just ran the samples with Corded Ware Germany and Czech Republic along with Fatyonovo and Sintashta to see if Russians or any other population scored any of the eastern groups. Not a single one did.


What even is the Fatyanovo really? Is it just steppe?
Distance: 1.6783% / 0.01678252
Target: DrMaul
50.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
16.2 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
12.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
10.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
6.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN

it is one of the groups that we associate with the steppe, yes. Although it is technically right in between the early bronze age Yamnaya and modern N/E Europeans. The steppe that you and I have comes from Sintashta and by proxy Fatyanovo

[Kaazi]

OK I see. You should have labeled them as "average"

Distance to: RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.05194385 Russian_Kursk
0.05221063 Russian_Tver
0.05354139 Russian_Orel
0.05632986 Icelandic
0.05679269 Norwegian
0.05748393 Swedish
0.05878497 Ukrainian
0.05936293 Irish
0.05954282 Russian_Kostroma
0.06022995 Belarusian
0.06065090 Russian_Voronez
0.06079473 Russian_Smolensk
0.06169603 Scottish
0.06205062 Finnish
0.06831252 Latvian
0.07469697 Finnish_East
0.08159222 Russian_Pinega


Very good work. I will now try to model each of these populations using ancient components.


Target: Latvian
Distance: 4.9720% / 0.04972001
49.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
19.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Finnish_East
Distance: 4.6555% / 0.04655509
33.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
32.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
20.2 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
8.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
6.4 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Finnish
Distance: 4.1753% / 0.04175254
37.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.8 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
5.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 4.3469% / 0.04346887
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
11.2 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 3.8680% / 0.03868032
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
44.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
6.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Russian_Voronez
Distance: 4.2760% / 0.04276008
48.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
42.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.2 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Tver
Distance: 3.9973% / 0.03997349
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
37.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
9.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
2.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
2.0 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 4.3963% / 0.04396341
49.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
10.4 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Russian_Pinega
Distance: 4.6625% / 0.04662529
36.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
12.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
10.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
9.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Orel
Distance: 3.8318% / 0.03831789
50.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.8 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.6 RUS_Baikal_EBA
0.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Russian_Kursk
Distance: 3.8057% / 0.03805675
51.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
39.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
8.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
1.0 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 4.2034% / 0.04203367
45.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.4 UKR_Globular_Amphora
7.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
6.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
5.8 RUS_Baikal_EBA

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 2.7851% / 0.02785117
50.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
41.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Swedish
Distance: 3.0000% / 0.02999954
47.2 UKR_Globular_Amphora
44.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
3.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 2.7457% / 0.02745734
47.6 UKR_Globular_Amphora
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 Baltic_LVA_HG
0.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG

Target: Scottish
Distance: 2.4080% / 0.02407967
52.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
45.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

Target: Irish
Distance: 2.5211% / 0.02521126
51.0 UKR_Globular_Amphora
46.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
0.8 Baltic_LVA_HG

Sintashta was closest to Swedish. You just used that 14 co-ordinates only? Can it considered reliable? The Norwegians and Finns look pretty low Steppe than thought of. Try this modeling for Shetlandic and Moldovan_o, I think it has pretty high level.

[Zoro]

What even is the Fatyanovo really? Is it just steppe?
Distance: 1.6783% / 0.01678252
Target: DrMaul
50.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
16.2 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
12.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
10.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
6.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN

Nothing that’s relevant to Iranics. The type of steppe relevant to Medes —-> Iranics is Andronovo (not Sintashta). Medes were about 50% Iran-Chl + 30% Turkmenistan-IA (Yaz culture) + 15% Levant-N

https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

A Sintashta model was attempted for Turkmenistan-IA and it failed, but Andronovo did not fail. This of course makes alot of sense since Yaz culture and Andronovo were neighbors (check the map in the study) and Sintashta was further away.

So Turkmenistan-IA (Yaz) was modelled as 40% local Gonur-BA (BMAC and Yaz neighbors) + 60% Andronovo (neighbor of Yaz)

For example, Iraqi Kurds successfully model was 70% Mede + 22% Saka (TianShan or Xiongnu) + 7% Levant-N


When modelling you’re not allowed to have more than 1 W Iranic ancient in your model. It’s called over-fitting. You have to either use 1 type of Iran-chl or Iran-IA or Iran-N that’s it. In your model you must remove 3 W. Iranic ancients. Instead of Fatyano you have to choose either Andronovo or Turkmenistan-IA. Next you need Levant-N and either Saka-TS or one of the E Sarmatians

[Dr_Maul]

Nothing that’s relevant to Iranics. The type of steppe relevant to Medes —-> Iranics is Andronovo (not Sintashta). Medes were about 50% Iran-Chl + 30% Turkmenistan-IA (Yaz culture) + 15% Levant-N

https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

A Sintashta model was attempted for Turkmenistan-IA and it failed, but Andronovo did not fail. This of course makes alot of sense since Yaz culture and Andronovo were neighbors (check the map in the study) and Sintashta was further away.

So Turkmenistan-IA (Yaz) was modelled as 40% local Gonur-BA (BMAC and Yaz neighbors) + 60% Andronovo (neighbor of Yaz)

For example, Iraqi Kurds successfully model was 70% Mede + 22% Saka (TianShan or Xiongnu) + 7% Levant-N


When modelling you’re not allowed to have more than 1 W Iranic ancient in your model. It’s called over-fitting. You have to either use 1 type of Iran-chl or Iran-IA or Iran-N that’s it. In your model you must remove 3 W. Iranic ancients. Instead of Fatyano you have to choose either Andronovo or Turkmenistan-IA. Next you need Levant-N and either Saka-TS or one of the E Sarmatians

Distance: 1.3239% / 0.01323877
Target: DrMaul
54.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
27.2 TKM_IA
9.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 Levant_ISR_C
3.2 Saka_Tian_Shan

[Zoro]

Distance: 1.3239% / 0.01323877
Target: DrMaul
54.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
27.2 TKM_IA
9.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 Levant_ISR_C
3.2 Saka_Tian_Shan

Looks good (subject to limitations of G25) you can also check Levant-N instead of C and i would also try swapping haji-firuz for Seh-Gabi just to get a range of values

Edit: Try Hasanlu-IA (Mede) instead of Iran-chl and since Mede already has 30% Turkmenistan-Ia, you can drop it so try a model with Mede+Levant-N+Saka. I believe G25 will underestimate your Saka but there’s nothing you can do about it. At least you would have tried

[Dr_Maul]

Looks good (subject to limitations of G25) you can also check Levant-N instead of C and i would also try swapping haji-firuz for Seh-Gabi just to get a range of values

Edit: Try Hasanlu-IA (Mede) instead of Iran-chl and since Mede already has 30% Turkmenistan-Ia, you can drop it so try a model with Mede+Levant-N+Saka. I believe G25 will underestimate your Saka but there’s nothing you can do about it. At least you would have tried

Can't find Levant_N, unless u mean Natufian? no Andronovo either
Distance: 1.8467% / 0.01846651
Target: DrMaul
50.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.5 TKM_IA
11.9 Levant_ISR_C
9.8 Saka_Tian_Shan

Distance: 1.8125% / 0.01812528
Target: DrMaul
65.5 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
16.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
11.7 Saka_Tian_Shan
6.8 Levant_ISR_C

[Trouble]

Sintashta was closest to Swedish. You just used that 14 co-ordinates only? Can it considered reliable? The Norwegians and Finns look pretty low Steppe than thought of. Try this modeling for Shetlandic and Moldovan_o, I think it has pretty high level.

Hmm, I dont know why I missed that. I guess I was too focused on the east Europeans. Yea, this deflates their steppe. The 14 coords are not reliable. I wonder if we can reduce the Baltic drift another way.

[Trouble]

Can't find Levant_N, unless u mean Natufian? no Andronovo either
Distance: 1.8467% / 0.01846651
Target: DrMaul
50.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.5 TKM_IA
11.9 Levant_ISR_C
9.8 Saka_Tian_Shan

Distance: 1.8125% / 0.01812528
Target: DrMaul
65.5 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
16.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
11.7 Saka_Tian_Shan
6.8 Levant_ISR_C

Levant_N was taken out a long time ago. I think they changed it to either Levant PPNC or Jor_EBA. I use Jor_EBA for it.

There is no sample called Andronovo but some sites represent it. Krasnoyarsk is one but it's the far eastern, slightly HG shifted end of the Andronovo culture. You could try using these:

KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
and Kaz_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul

[vbnetkhio]

Hmm, I dont know why I missed that. I guess I was too focused on the east Europeans. Yea, this deflates their steppe. The 14 coords are not reliable. I wonder if we can reduce the Baltic drift another way.

I used 13 coordinates because at 14 the Baltic drift becomes too strong again. however some of the higher coordinates again don't have it. I could include those for increased precision.

[Trouble]

I used 13 coordinates because at 14 the Baltic drift becomes too strong again. however some of the higher coordinates again don't have it. I could include those for increased precision.

Yes, please do. Exclude all the ones with the Baltic drift and include all the ones that don’t or which have it at low amounts.

[vbnetkhio]

Sintashta was closest to Swedish. You just used that 14 co-ordinates only? Can it considered reliable? The Norwegians and Finns look pretty low Steppe than thought of. Try this modeling for Shetlandic and Moldovan_o, I think it has pretty high level.

are you basing this just on G25/nmonte modelling? In a neolithic based model, Sintashta(included in RUS/KAZ steppe here) definitely plots closer to Eastern Euros than to Swedes.

https://i.imgur.com/2CBUQTG.png

[Arhat]

What even is the Fatyanovo really? Is it just steppe?
Distance: 1.6783% / 0.01678252
Target: DrMaul
50.9 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
16.2 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
12.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
10.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
6.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
3.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
The Fatyanovo sample is 100% CWC and Sintashta-like but of lower quality so if you look deep it you can find some pseudo-exotic ancestry. Fatyanovo is in terms of dna just a generic CWC culture but with Z93 which later became Indo-Iranians.

[Arhat]

Looks good (subject to limitations of G25) you can also check Levant-N instead of C and i would also try swapping haji-firuz for Seh-Gabi just to get a range of values

Edit: Try Hasanlu-IA (Mede) instead of Iran-chl and since Mede already has 30% Turkmenistan-Ia, you can drop it so try a model with Mede+Levant-N+Saka. I believe G25 will underestimate your Saka but there’s nothing you can do about it. At least you would have tried

Nobody in Iran except maybe some Turks has any Saka ancestry above 1% not even Tajiks or Pashtuns have much of it.

[Leto]

Nobody in Iran except maybe some Turks has any Saka ancestry above 1% not even Tajiks or Pashtuns have much of it.
Do Kazakhs actually have a lot of Scythian ancestry? They're like 35-40% Caucasoid. What's the source of it?

[Zoro]

Nobody in Iran except maybe some Turks has any Saka ancestry above 1% not even Tajiks or Pashtuns have much of it.

Ok clown i believe your research. Looks pretty solid ;)

[Arhat]

Do Kazakhs actually have a lot of Scythian ancestry? They're like 35-40% Caucasoid. What's the source of it?

A lot compared to most other people in the region for sure but not more than 20%. They not even resemble the super-east asian shifted Saka who had other kind of East Asian ancestry not of the Han-shifted kind of early Turks/Mongols. I think Volga Tatars and Kazakh are probably the people with most direct Saka ancestry but not more than 25% for sure. Much of the caucasoid admixture among Kazakh, Uzbeks and so is from more southern Iranian or Afghan-like people

[Leto]

Ok clown i believe your research. Looks pretty solid ;)
Kurds are low Steppe people on average. Kyp Snow's father has more Steppe than an average Kurd and he is like 20% Steppe. But I suggest you run one Syrian Kurdish sample from the recent West Asian study, it's more North European than most Kurds or Persians.

[Leto]

A lot compared to most other people in the region for sure but not more than 20%. They not even resemble the super-east asian shifted Saka who had other kind of East Asian ancestry not of the Han-shifted kind of early Turks/Mongols. I think Volga Tatars and Kazakh are probably the people with most direct Saka ancestry but not more than 25% for sure. Much of the caucasoid admixture among Kazakh, Uzbeks and so is from more southern Iranian or Afghan-like people
I have a feeling Bashkirs have a substantial amount of Iranic ancestry. Their Y DNA is strongly Indo-European. I think they are Turkic, Iranic and Ugric/Samoyedic.

[Arhat]

I have a feeling Bashkirs have a substantial amount of Iranic ancestry. Their Y DNA is strongly Indo-European. I think they are Turkic, Iranic and Ugric/Samoyedic.

Ancestry of Volga people especially the Turkic ones is super complex and can not be so easily modelled. They surely all have Saka and maybe even earlier Aryan Abashevo ancestry but also direct Yamnaya with R1b, Finno-Ugrian,Caucasian/Alan, Balto-Slavic, Turkic and even Germanic ancestry based on some Tatars having Germanic Y-DNA (Varangians)

[Zoro]

Kurds are low Steppe people on average. Kyp Snow's father has more Steppe than an average Kurd and he is like 20% Steppe. But I suggest you run one Syrian Kurdish sample from the recent West Asian study, it's more North European than most Kurds or Persians.

I like your idea. Why spend months on DNA analysis. I think we don’t need any fancy programs or research or papers when we can figure out anything we need to know about a sample such as Steppe in 5 minutes simply by running it through Dodecad K12.

[Leto]

Ancestry of Volga people especially the Turkic ones is super complex and can not be so easily modelled. They surely all have Saka and maybe even earlier Aryan Abashevo ancestry but also direct Yamnaya with R1b, Finno-Ugrian,Caucasian/Alan, Balto-Slavic, Turkic and even Germanic ancestry based on some Tatars having Germanic Y-DNA (Varangians)
Yeah, that's why it's laughable how some (both Tatar and non-Tatar) fucks scorn us ethnic Russians as Tatar-blooded mongrels (I swear even fucking Putin once repeated that publicly), even though they probably have more Slavic in them than we have Tatar in us (whatever the fuck it means in the first place - Volga Tatars are only ca. 20% Mong on average).

[Leto]

Double

[Leto]

I like your idea. Why spend months on DNA analysis. I think we don’t need any fancy programs or research or papers when we can figure out anything we need to know about a sample such as Steppe in 5 minutes simply by running it through Dodecad K12.
I didn't suggest Dodecad. G25 :D

[Kyp]

Does this make sense?

Distance: 2.3651% / 0.02365084
Target: KypFather_scaled
36.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
24.2 TKM_IA
19.7 TUR_Barcin_C
8.4 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
7.9 RUS_Baikal_BA_o
3.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

[Zoro]

Can't find Levant_N, unless u mean Natufian? no Andronovo either
Distance: 1.8467% / 0.01846651
Target: DrMaul
50.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.5 TKM_IA
11.9 Levant_ISR_C
9.8 Saka_Tian_Shan

Distance: 1.8125% / 0.01812528
Target: DrMaul
65.5 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
16.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
11.7 Saka_Tian_Shan
6.8 Levant_ISR_C


But the dataset has a bunch of Andronovo samples, some labeled Russian-Andronovo and yes since Andronovo bordered Yaz and was close to Iranian border, it makes sense why formal stat models for Kurds and Iranics prefer Andronovo over Sintashta.

Hmm I’m puzzled why wouldn’t there be any Andronovo samples in G25 dataset? Could it be that the G25 man is Polish-centric and he didn’t include them because he doesn’t want users to use them and wants to use Sintashta instead since Sintashta is a little closer to Europeans and It was the more European Sintashta that civilized the uncivilized Iranics and S Asians?

Just kidding. That can’t be true it’s too devious :D

Are you seriously saying G25 is devoid of actual Andronovo labeled samples?

[Kyp]

Distance: 2.2308% / 0.02230819
Target: KypFather_scaled
50.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
19.9 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
8.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.3 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
6.7 TUR_Barcin_C
4.1 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
2.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

[Zoro]

Seriously if anyone wants details of the research on Mede formal models or Andronovo being a better proxy than Sintashta for the Yaz culture Turkmenistan-IA sample go to EurasianDNA.com and click on this study

https://i.imgur.com/QeVTubH.jpg

As far as their research or Dilawer's quals click on "About" on the home page

https://i.imgur.com/22Afh86.jpg

[Demhat]

Nobody in Iran except maybe some Turks has any Saka ancestry above 1% not even Tajiks or Pashtuns have much of it.

The audacity to believe Scythian ancestry does not reach above 1% on the Iranian Plateau comes from the superstition that Bronze Age cultures such as Sintashta are representative for Iron Age people.

The Iranian plateau has been the target of several Scythian and related tribes such as the Cimmerians and Alans. From the Amardi, Gelae, to the Royal Scythians that settled in Media and ruled it, to the Parni that settled in the Parthian Dynasty to the Alani, Azones and Silices of Adiabene that made up, together with the Orontes, the main population of Adiabene and were Sarmatian derived. How the hell can someone come to a "logical" conclusion like yours?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amardi
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/protothyes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelae_(Scythian_tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabene#Population
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Parni
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyaxares


And than the audacity to to claim Tajiks(genetically mostly descend of Sogdians or Pashtuns, who are descend of Bactrians/Hepthalites (our main source for Saka language via Khotanese) have very little Saka ancestry.....

[Leto]

Distance: 2.2308% / 0.02230819
Target: KypFather_scaled
50.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
19.9 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
8.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.3 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
6.7 TUR_Barcin_C
4.1 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
2.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
Try Kashkarchi_BA.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, please do. Exclude all the ones with the Baltic drift and include all the ones that don’t or which have it at low amounts.

looks like it was just PC14 causing the drift. :D

here's the version with 24 coordinates.
https://ufile.io/f/j0tg5

some of the additional PCs could be causing additional drifts though. more isn't always better, 13 PCs could be be just enough.

[Zoro]

Distance: 2.2308% / 0.02230819
Target: KypFather_scaled
50.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
19.9 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
8.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
8.3 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
6.7 TUR_Barcin_C
4.1 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
2.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Can't use all 3 in the same model. There's a reason you'll never ever ever see a formal model with all 3 at the same time. If you ever tried it with formal stats standard errors will shoot through the roof. Overfitting meaning too much genetic overlap between the 3. I was going to add AZE to the list but I don't know what it stands for

[Kyp]

Try Kashkarchi_BA.

Distance: 2.2544% / 0.02254375
Target: KypFather_scaled2
56.3 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
18.2 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
8.7 TUR_Barcin_C
7.7 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
7.0 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
2.1 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

[Demhat]

Kurds are low Steppe people on average. Kyp Snow's father has more Steppe than an average Kurd and he is like 20% Steppe. But I suggest you run one Syrian Kurdish sample from the recent West Asian study, it's more North European than most Kurds or Persians.

When you say low on Steppe you mean low on Bronze Age Steppe like Sintashta or Srubna which are rather "Proto IndoIranic" than proto Scythian. Please try to understand, that trying to estimate Scythian derived/closely related ancestry via Sintashta is like trying to estimate the Viking ancestry of Swedes/Norwegians and Goths ancestry of Danes and Northeast Germans via CWC. It makes absolutely no fucking sense.

I know we all (me included) have our fair share of agenda. But please people let's try to stay in the realm of logic and not fall victim to our own agendas.

[Zoro]

The audacity to believe Scythian ancestry does not reach above 1% on the Iranian Plateau comes from the superstition that Bronze Age cultures such as Sintashta are representative for Iron Age people.

The Iranian plateau has been the target of several Scythian and related tribes such as the Cimmerians and Alans. From the Amardi, Gelae, to the Royal Scythians that settled in Media and ruled it, to the Parni that settled in the Parthian Dynasty to the Alani, Azones and Silices of Adiabene that made up, together with the Orontes, the main population of Adiabene and were Sarmatian derived. How the hell can someone come to a "logical" conclusion like yours?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amardi
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/protothyes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelae_(Scythian_tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabene#Population
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Parni
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyaxares


And than the audacity to to claim Tajiks(genetically mostly descend of Sogdians or Pashtuns (Bactrians/Hepthalites) have very little Saka ancestry.....

His post was too ridiculous to waste time on.

[Mejgusu]

His post was too ridiculous to waste time on.

You are literally one of the biggest clowns here, claiming Kurds are the most Central Asian people in Westasia. In science people use many sources to evaluate, finally there are always some mistakes or some truth in every source but just a few are good for specific work. The website which you are always mentioning is not very trustworthy, besides of that it is funny that you are often name only this site as offer of proof. Many on this forum are trolls or simply stupid still here are some who understand your nonsense, so please stop spreading your imbecility.

[Leto]

When you say low on Steppe you mean low on Bronze Age Steppe like Sintashta or Srubna which are rather "Proto IndoIranic" than proto Scythian. Please try to understand, that trying to estimate Scythian derived/closely related ancestry via Sintashta is like trying to estimate the Viking ancestry of Swedes/Norwegians and Goths ancestry of Danes and Northeast Germans via CWC. It makes absolutely no fucking sense.

I know we all (me included) have our fair share of agenda. But please people let's try to stay in the realm of logic and not fall victim to our own agendas.
I didn't say it was Scythian. I said low Steppe people which is true if we assume Kurds are 80+% non-Steppe on average.

[Demhat]

You are literally one of the biggest clowns here, claiming Kurds are the most Central Asian people in Westasia.
I can't remember to have seen him ever claim the Kurds have more Central and specifically East Asian ancestry than Turkic speakers. Or am I missing something?

[Demhat]

I didn't say it was Scythian. I said low Steppe people which is true if we assume Kurds are 80+% non-Steppe on average.

True but your comment was directed at a conversation about Scythian ancestry. You have to understand if you through a comment into a debate like this pointing out the low (Bronze Age) Steppe admixture, you create the assumption that you are siding with the nonsense.

The very least your comment was not well timed.


It is clear with different models and more samples Kurds will be probably model something like ~80% Mede +10-15 Scythian/Sarmatian + 5-10% Other admixture.

Or alternatively ~85-90% Parthian + 5-10% Scythian/Sarmatian + 5-10% Other

[Zoro]

You are literally one of the biggest clowns here, claiming Kurds are the most Central Asian people in Westasia. In science people use many sources to evaluate, finally there are always some mistakes or some truth in every source but just a few are good for specific work. The website which you are always mentioning is not very trustworthy, besides of that it is funny that you are often name only this site as offer of proof. Many on this forum are trolls or simply stupid still here are some who understand your nonsense, so please stop spreading your imbecility.

What are you blabbering about. EurasianDNA is the only website that does detailed serious formal analysis on Kurds and yes I do cite other sources when they're relevant to Kurds. Did you forget the thread about Kurds where I posted these other sources https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?338395-C-Asians-closer-to-Kurds

Findings from the following papers will be presented, along with our own formal analysis which corroborates their findings:


1- In “Ancestry and demography and descendants of Iron Age nomads of the Eurasian Steppe“, Unterländer, M., Palstra, F., Lazaridis, I. et al. the authors show that unlike most other populations in West Asia, Kurds derive from both Eastern and Western Scythians (figs 1, 2).

2- In “Kurds HLA Genes: Its Implications in Transplantation and Pharmacogenomics“, Ali Amirzargar1,§, Diego Rey2,§, Ester Muñiz et al, Medical School, Tehran University of Medical Sciences, Tehran, Iran, 2015, the authors show that from various Iranian and worldwide populations Kurds are genetically closest to Iranian Gorgan Turkmen based on HLA-DRB1 haplotypes.

3- In “Phylogeography, genetic diversity and demographic history of the Iranian Kurdish groups based on mtDNA sequences”. Zarei F, Rajabi-Maham H. J Genet. 2016 Dec;95(4):767-776. doi: 10.1007/s12041-016-0692-4. PMID: 27994175 from all European and Asian populations Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds have the lowest FST mt DNA distance to Tatars and from all west Asian and European populations Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds have the lowest mt DNA FST distance to Turkmen.

4- In “A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into central Asia”. Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. Am J Hum Genet. 2002;71(3):466-482. doi:10.1086/342096, the authors show that based on Y-DNA Central Asians cluster closer to Kurds than they do to other West Asians.



I promise to read your formal research article about Kurds when you publish it :cool:

[Arhat]

The audacity to believe Scythian ancestry does not reach above 1% on the Iranian Plateau comes from the superstition that Bronze Age cultures such as Sintashta are representative for Iron Age people.

The Iranian plateau has been the target of several Scythian and related tribes such as the Cimmerians and Alans. From the Amardi, Gelae, to the Royal Scythians that settled in Media and ruled it, to the Parni that settled in the Parthian Dynasty to the Alani, Azones and Silices of Adiabene that made up, together with the Orontes, the main population of Adiabene and were Sarmatian derived. How the hell can someone come to a "logical" conclusion like yours?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amardi
https://iranicaonline.org/articles/protothyes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelae_(Scythian_tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabene#Population
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Parni
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Cyaxares


And than the audacity to to claim Tajiks(genetically mostly descend of Sogdians or Pashtuns, who are descend of Bactrians/Hepthalites (our main source for Saka language via Khotanese) have very little Saka ancestry.....


Yep it is close to zero in Iran and in Afghanistan at max around 5% excluding the north but in the North it was mainly transmitted by Turks.

Saka were just of hundred of Indo-Iranian groups super romanticized and fetishized today. They were one of the latest Indo-Iranian groups arriving in Iran and Afghanistan so it is logical that we don't see much of their ancestry preserved. In the case of Iran we can not even talk about settlements or kingdoms and mostly about raids. Parthians don't count because they were not Saka and genetically surely rather Khorasan/Tajik-like than Saka like who lived in the Kazakh steppe.

Also Saka Y-DNA was so far found not among Kurds or Persians. Saka Y-DNA is today generalyl rare but if found than in the steppe belt from Moldova to Mongolia among modern day Turks who absorbed it from earlier North Iranics.

Kurdish is also not close to Saka languages, which were closest to modern day Yaghnobi and Ossetian.

Also no Pashtuns are not mainly descendants of Sogdians or Bactrians lol they are mainly descendants of ancient nomadic Arachosians + Dards + recent Turkic/Central Asian admix from Tajiks/Uzbeks/Hazara/Pamiri + minor recent West Iranic ancestry. Pashtuns orginate in South Afghanistan and just super recently settled in former Bactria

[Leto]

Also no Pashtuns are not mainly descendants of Sogdians or Bactrians lol they are mainly descendants of ancient nomadic Arachosians + Dards + recent Turkic/Central Asian admix from Tajiks/Uzbeks/Hazara/Pamiri + minor recent West Iranic ancestry.
I think Tajiks in Tajikistan would often brag about their Sogdian ancestry. Sughd velayat is named after Sogdia.

[Demhat]

Yep it is close to zero in Iran and in Afghanistan at max around 5% excluding the north but in the North it was mainly transmitted by Turks.


I stopped reading here. And anyone giving this nonsense a thumps up should seriously question his sanity imho. Uses language as argument (West vs East Iranic) to prove that there is no Scythian ancestry in modern Iranians and Kurds). Claims most of it came from Turkic speakers to Iran. And of course even Tajiks and Pashtuns (who literally speak a East Iranic language) have less Saka than Turkic speakers. Using different standards and bending the methods as it fits. Never seen so much nonsense thrown together in one comment. Debate ends here.

[Leto]

I stopped reading here. And anyone giving your brabbling a thumps up here should seriously question their sanity imho. Uses language as argument (West vs East Iranic) to prove that there is no Scythian ancestry in modern Iranians and Kurds). Claims most of it came from Turkic speakers to Iran. Using different standards and bending the methods as it fits. Never seen so much nonsense thrown together in one comment. Debate ends here.
Arhat is a decent and knowledgeable guy when it comes to Indo-Europeans. He's not a damn troll like Proto-Shaman.

[Arhat]

I think Tajiks in Tajikistan would often brag about their Sogdian ancestry. Sughd velayat is named after Sogdia.

Tajiks in these region are for sure mainly descendants of Sogdians but they have a lot of extra Turkic and extra West Iranian ancestry from the medieval period. Netherless Sogdians and Saka were two different people. Sogdians were sedentary traders, craftsman and farmers living in high civlized urban regions . Saka on the otherside were nomadic and lived much more in the north in the Kazakh steppe. Also they had much more East Eurasian ancestry.

[Leto]

I stopped reading here. And anyone giving your brabbling a thumps up here should seriously question their sanity imho. Uses language as argument (West vs East Iranic) to prove that there is no Scythian ancestry in modern Iranians and Kurds). Claims most of it came from Turkic speakers to Iran. Using different standards and bending the methods as it fits. Never seen so much nonsense thrown together in one comment. Debate ends here.
Arhat is a decent and knowledgeable guy when it comes to Indo-Europeans. He's not a damn troll like Proto-Shaman.

[Demhat]

Arhat is a decent and knowledgeable guy when it comes to Indo-Europeans. He's not a damn troll like Proto-Shaman.

I don't know man the first two posts I have seen of him are borderline trolling. Can't imagine anyone really believing this crap without actually being a troll. Claiming Kurds and Iranians can't have Scythian admixture - while there are records of almost a dozen of Scythian tribes, dynasties in the region - because they are West Iranic speakers, while Turkic speakers certanly have most Saka even more than Tajiks and Pashtuns. The double standards within one comment are too much. Either this person is a very professional troll or....... At this point, I relly hope he is just trolling.
Or do you agree with him that Tajiks and Pashtun have even less Saka ancestry than Turkic speakers? This is not worthy of a debate here imho.

[Zoro]

I stopped reading here. And anyone giving this nonsense a thumps up should seriously question his sanity imho. Uses language as argument (West vs East Iranic) to prove that there is no Scythian ancestry in modern Iranians and Kurds). Claims most of it came from Turkic speakers to Iran. And of course even Tajiks and Pashtuns (who literally speak a East Iranic language) have less Saka than Turkic speakers. Using different standards and bending the methods as it fits. Never seen so much nonsense thrown together in one comment. Debate ends here.

Let's see are we going to go by these autosomal, mtDNA, YDNA and formal studies by EurasianDNA or go with Arhat;s hunch ? it's a tough choice. I think I'll go with Arhat's hunch lol

1- In “Ancestry and demography and descendants of Iron Age nomads of the Eurasian Steppe“, Unterländer, M., Palstra, F., Lazaridis, I. et al. the authors show that unlike most other populations in West Asia, Kurds derive from both Eastern and Western Scythians (figs 1, 2).

2- In “Kurds HLA Genes: Its Implications in Transplantation and Pharmacogenomics“, Ali Amirzargar1,§, Diego Rey2,§, Ester Muñiz et al, Medical School, Tehran University of Medical Sciences, Tehran, Iran, 2015, the authors show that from various Iranian and worldwide populations Kurds are genetically closest to Iranian Gorgan Turkmen based on HLA-DRB1 haplotypes.

3- In “Phylogeography, genetic diversity and demographic history of the Iranian Kurdish groups based on mtDNA sequences”. Zarei F, Rajabi-Maham H. J Genet. 2016 Dec;95(4):767-776. doi: 10.1007/s12041-016-0692-4. PMID: 27994175 from all European and Asian populations Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds have the lowest FST mt DNA distance to Tatars and from all west Asian and European populations Iraqi Kurmanji Kurds have the lowest mt DNA FST distance to Turkmen.

4- In “A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into central Asia”. Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. Am J Hum Genet. 2002;71(3):466-482. doi:10.1086/342096, the authors show that based on Y-DNA Central Asians cluster closer to Kurds than they do to other West Asians.


On an unrelated note. I found out there's a village called Badini (as in Badini / Kurmanji Kurds ) west of Quetta in Balochistan. There's also the Afghan Feyli Kurd tribe in W.. Iran and Sindi Kurd tribe in N. Iraq. Of course they're all coincidences since coincidences happen mostly with Kurds

[Arhat]

Arhat is a decent and knowledgeable guy when it comes to Indo-Europeans. He's not a damn troll like Proto-Shaman.

The most funny thing is that i got something like 100 downvotes in few days because i argued against some pan-turanists and now these trolls accuse me for being a turanian troll lol.

[Arhat]

I don't know man the first two posts I have seen of him are borderline trolling. Can't imagine anyone really believing this crap without actually being a troll. Claiming Kurds and Iranians can't have Scythian admixture - while there are records of almost a dozen of Scythian tribes, dynasties in the region - because they are West Iranic speakers, while Turkic speakers certanly have most Saka even more than Tajiks and Pashtuns. The double standards within one comment are too much. Either this person is a very professional troll or....... At this point, I relly hope he is just trolling.
Or do you agree with him that Tajiks and Pashtun have even less Saka ancestry than Turkic speakers? This is not worthy of a debate here imho.

Lol which fucking Saka were West Iranic this is already on Proto-Shaman troll level. Nobody is claiming that Saka were Turks just that the specific North Iranic group, which was called Saka, had much less of a genetic impact than early West Irancis like Medes or Persians what fits linguists, uniparental markers and archaelogy. In Afghanistan there is for sure lot of archaelogical evidence for Saka presence but this again not means that Saka contributed much to modern day people there but in Kurdistan Saka influences are mostly restricted to raids and they never had kingdoms there. Claiming Kurds got their West Iranic language recently from East Iranic 25-50% East Eurasian Saka is like claiming Czechs got their West Slavic languages from East Slavic red army soldiers 50 years ago.

[Kaazi]

are you basing this just on G25/nmonte modelling? In a neolithic based model, Sintashta(included in RUS/KAZ steppe here) definitely plots closer to Eastern Euros than to Swedes.

https://i.imgur.com/2CBUQTG.png

Ya, but I agree with you since Sintashta was pretty low EEF like Northeastern Euros than North Germanics. Fatyanovo give similar fits like Sintashta. Is Fatyanovo cousins of Sintashta or ancestral to Sintashta? They were all R1a-Z93 ?

[Aren]

There's absolutely no reason to use Neolithic or Copper Age samples from the Levant to model modern day Iranians. Seh_Gabi_C is the most vital one as their pre-Iranic core, not Hajji Firuz C with it's old date to around 6000BC, and geographically not optimal either. Seh Gabi also does not have the required Natufian/Levant admixture that is needed for basically all Iranians so we need a source most likely from Mesopotamia dated to after the Copper Age, we obviously don't have that but the logical one to use atm is the Eblaite average. East Semitic from the EBA surely a good proxy for pre-Sargonic Akkadians.
The Mazandaranis are an interesting bunch, they have very little basically noise level of this Levantine/Mesopotamian shift.


Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 1.3785% / 0.01378488
50.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
25.8 TKM_IA
10.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
6.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
1.2 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 1.1369% / 0.01136891
37.2 TKM_IA
28.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
6.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.4 KAZ_Karluk

[vbnetkhio]

Ya, but I agree with you since Sintashta was pretty low EEF like Northeastern Euros than North Germanics. Fatyanovo give similar fits like Sintashta. Is Fatyanovo cousins of Sintashta or ancestral to Sintashta?
ancestral.



They were all R1a-Z93 ?

yep

[Kyp]

There's absolutely no reason to use Neolithic or Copper Age samples from the Levant to model modern day Iranians. Seh_Gabi_C is the most vital one as their pre-Iranic core, not Hajji Firuz C with it's old date to around 6000BC, and geographically not optimal either. Seh Gabi also does not have the required Natufian/Levant admixture that is needed for basically all Iranians so we need a source most likely from Mesopotamia dated to after the Copper Age, we obviously don't have that but the logical one to use atm is the Eblaite average. East Semitic from the EBA surely a good proxy for pre-Sargonic Akkadians.
The Mazandaranis are an interesting bunch, they have very little basically noise level of this Levantine/Mesopotamian shift.


Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 1.3785% / 0.01378488
50.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
25.8 TKM_IA
10.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
6.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
1.2 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 1.1369% / 0.01136891
37.2 TKM_IA
28.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
6.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.4 KAZ_Karluk

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 0.0256% / 0.02556644
47.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
20.4 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
9.2 RUS_Baikal_BA_o
4.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA

[Kaazi]

https://i.imgur.com/vVW9NQe.jpg

Obviously, Haryana_Jats and Rors will score the highest and are very much separated from their Punjabi (Sikh) Jatt cousins. High caste Hindus from North score between 20-25% (but there's also a lil layer of WSHG) while the South Indian Brahmin scores a lil lower, (dunno other high caste South Indians). The distances are bit higher since it's more ancient than Sintashta.

[Aren]

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 0.0256% / 0.02556644
47.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
20.4 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
18.6 TUR_Barcin_C
9.2 RUS_Baikal_BA_o
4.8 SYR_Ebla_EMBA

Your father scores crazy low SW Asian/Natufian I think he inherited it disproportionally from his Persian/Mazandarani side.

[Zoro]

There's absolutely no reason to use Neolithic or Copper Age samples from the Levant to model modern day Iranians. Seh_Gabi_C is the most vital one as their pre-Iranic core, not Hajji Firuz C with it's old date to around 6000BC, and geographically not optimal either. Seh Gabi also does not have the required Natufian/Levant admixture that is needed for basically all Iranians so we need a source most likely from Mesopotamia dated to after the Copper Age, we obviously don't have that but the logical one to use atm is the Eblaite average. East Semitic from the EBA surely a good proxy for pre-Sargonic Akkadians.
The Mazandaranis are an interesting bunch, they have very little basically noise level of this Levantine/Mesopotamian shift.


Target: Iranian_Mazandarani
Distance: 1.3785% / 0.01378488
50.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
25.8 TKM_IA
10.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
6.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
1.2 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 1.1369% / 0.01136891
37.2 TKM_IA
28.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
27.6 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
6.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.4 KAZ_Karluk

Seh-Gabi or Haji-Firuz-Chl can be used for ancient local ancestry in Iranics. The distances between them are not huge. It's going to come down to which samples are higher quality for better accuracy. I think that's the reason the used specifically Haji-Firuz-Chl-I4349 because at 7.3x coverage it's a very high quality sample relatively speaking. I think that's also the reason they used Hasanlu-IA instead of Haji-Firuz-IA. Hasanlu is a higher quality sample with higher coverage.

I believe the reason they used Levant-N is because of ambiguity reasons. Mesopotamian samples with Iran-Chl or IA in the same run create an overfitting situation which qpAdm hates. Using more than 1 mixed Iran-Chl/Anatolia-N/Kura-Araxes creates confidence issues with direction of geneflow and and standard errors get really high because it's not clear whether Iranians or Kurds have affinity to say SYR_EMBA because:

1- they share common Iran-Chl/Levant-N/Anatolia-N related or
2- Because there was geneflow from Iran-Chl into SYR-EMBA or
3- Because Iranians/Kurds have actual SYR-EMBA

To resolve ambiguity issues it is logical to model Iranians/Kurds with less admixed populations such as Iran-N + Levant-N + Anatolia-N + DevilsGate-N.

In the latest Medes study at EurasianDNA https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

They discuss the Mesopotamian connection to Kurds

Most of the Levant-N related admixture in contemporary Kurds is very old The qpAdm analysis indicates that most of the Neolithic Levant related admixture in contemporary Kurds is at least 2700 years old and was inherited from their Mede ancestors. We hypothesize that this type of admixture increased in western Iran after the Chalcolithic, most likely during the Old and Middle Assyrian Empires.
We see evidence of this in the qpAdm analysis shown in figs 2-4, where the amount of Levant-N in Kurds significantly drop when we replace Iran-Chl with the 2700 year old Mede, indicating that the Mede carried greater Levant-N related admixture than it’s chalcolithic predecessor. Figure 3 corroborates this where the Mede (Hasanlu-IA) is modeled with Iran-Chl +14.9% Levant-N (p-value 0.04).
Depending on the timing of introgression of additional Levant-N related ancestry post Iran-Chl, and pre Iran-IA, with the ancient Mesopotamians (likely Assyrians), this would determine whether those Mesopotamians would have received steppe admixture or not. If hybridization between the Mesopotamians (Assyrians) and Medes or their ancestors occurred after introduction of steppe admixture into NW Iran, that would mean that those Mesopotamians (Assyrians) would have picked up steppe admixture via the Medes or their ancestors. Early Iron-Age or late Bronze-Age genomes from Mesopotamia would shed further light on this.

https://eurasiandna.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/74337EA6-456E-4235-89C8-ACE23BD986FE.jpeg

Fig 2 – When Iran-Chl is used qpAdm models for Kurds unequivocally require 3 or 4 streams of ancestry consisting of either Iran-Chl + Levant-N + Scythian/Sarmatian or Iran-Chl + Levant-N + Scythian/Sarmatian + Turkemenistan-IA. Whereas Turkmenistan-IA can be dropped in some models depending on the Scythian/Sarmatian sample used, by contrast, Scythian/Sarmatian can not be dropped in any model. When the Mede is used instead of Iran-Chl, models for Kurds do not require Turkmenistan-IA (Steppe-MLBA), however, they always require Scythians/Sarmatians



ABSTRACT Sometime between the late Bronze-Age and the early Iron-Age, Iran experienced a linguistic and population replacement. Approximately 2700 years ago, the Indo-Iranian Medes established the Median empire which stretched from north-west Pakistan westwards to Turkey, and thereby brought genetic, linguistic, as well as ideological changes to Iran.
Although not much is known about this period in time in Iran, our comprehensive study highlights in detail the changes to the Chalcolithic western Iranian sheep herder genetic substructure that accompanied the linguistic and ideological changes there with the rise of the Medes, Parthians, and subsequent Central Asian steppe Indo-Iranians.
The linguistic changes in western Iran around 2700 years included the rise of the Indo-Iranian languages, and their replacement of the Elamite language isolate, which perhaps was related to the Dravidian languages of India.
On the ideological front, the Indo-Iranians starting with the Medes, and later continuing with the Parthians, brought the zoroastrian religion from Central Asia into western Iran and the Kurdistan area. The zoroastrian scriptures were written in the old Iranian Avestan language. Zoroastrianism, along with Buddhism, the Rig Veda, and Avestan originated originated in ancient Arachosia, Aria, Bactria, and Margiana around present day Afghanistan.
Our analysis formally with qpAdm indicates that genetically Medes can be successfully modeled (p=0.04) as follows:


Approximately 51% ancient 7700 year old non Indo-Iranian Chalcolithic Zagrosian sheep herder;
Approximately 15% Neolithic Levant farmer related. This component of ancestry possibly arrived in western Iran during the Old & Middle Assyrian Empires;
Approximately 31% Indo-Iranian related to a 2800 year old Turkmenistan-IA sample from the Yaz culture (fig 1) of Central Asia. This sample appears to be 60% early Indo-Iranian derived from the neighboring Andronovo-MLBA culture (fig 4);

Our formal analysis using qpAdm subject to the numerous precautions and strict protocols outlined under “Methods & Materials” indicates that contemporary Iraqi Kurds are predominantly Mede derived (p-values 0.33 & 0.47, fig 2), with approximately :


71% Indo-Iranian Mede related ancestry as proxied by the 2700 year old Hasanlu-IA near a Kurdish region in Iran (fig 1);
7-11% ancient Neolithic Levant farmer related;
17-22% Indo-Iranian Central Asian Scythian/Sarmatian related. Some of this component of ancestry could have been mediated to Kurds via the 2000 year old Parthians. This is consistent with Gernot Windfuhr, professor of Iranian Studies, placing Kurdish under the Parthian branch, albeit with a Median substratum [9] (fig 9).

Finally, we validate our results on multiple levels as described below.




Kurds received much of their Steppe-MLBA related admixture from the Medes Most researchers associate the 3000 to 5000 year old (Middle to Late Bronze Age) West Siberian Andronovo culture with early Indo-Iranian languages. This culture bordered the BMAC and Yaz Iranic cultures of Turkmenistan. Thus is consistent with qpAdm models indicating that the 2800 year old Iranic Turkmenistan-IA sample is better modeled as BMAC + Andronovo-MLBA with a 40/60 mix, instead of BMAC + Sintashta-MLBA as evidenced by significantly lower p-values (fig 5).
QpAdm models indicate that Kurds received much of their Steppe-MLBA related admixture from the Medes (fig 2 & 4). We see in figure 2 that when Iran-Chl is replaced with Iran-IA-Hasanlu (Mede), the Turkmenisan-IA admixture in Kurds disappears indicating that Medes carried enough of this type of admixture to eliminate the need for additional admixture of this character in Kurds (figs 2 & 4).




Validation of Kurd admixture models containing Scythians & Sarmatians Inspite of findings by Unterlander, Palstra, and Lazaridis et al [1] (figs 7-9) that Kurds (KTQ) have almost a 100% posterior probability of descent from western and eastern Scythians, and our own solid qpAdm analysis suggesting that contemporary Kurds received a layer of Scythian related admixture above their Mede ancestry, a few critics may hypothesize that the genetic affinity between Kurds and Scythians may simply be an artifact of Kurds and Scythians sharing common ancestral proto-Indo-Iranian Sintashta-MLBA related genetic substructure.

We are able to address the aforementioned criticism and validate our models as follows. If the aforementioned criticism is valid then we should be able to reject qpAdm models for Kurds consisting of either:



Iran-Chl + Levant + Turkmenistan-IA + primarily E.Asian admixed Mongolian-IA, and;
Iran-IA+ Levant + Turkmenistan-IA + primarily E.Asian admixed Mongolian-IA.

The reason we should be able to reject models with primarily E. Asian admixed samples is if the affinity between Kurds and Scythians is simply due to Sintashta-MLBA related being ancestral to both Kurds and Scythians, is that Sintashta-MLBA does not have E. Asian admixture, thus Kurds could not have received E. Asian admixture simply because they have Sintashta-MLBA related admixture mediated to them via Yaz culture Indo-Iranian Turkmenistan-IA proxy.
We thus tested qpAdm models for Kurds consisting of:


Iran-Chl + Levant + Turkmenistan-IA + Han-Xiongnu [11], and;
Iran-IA+ Levant + Turkmenistan-IA + Han-Xiongnu

We show the results of this analysis in figure 4. The model using Iran-Chl shows Kurds with 9% Han-Xiongnu (p-value 0.01), and the one using Iran-IA (Mede) shows Kurds with 7.3% (p-value 0.01).

Han-Xiongnu was modeled using qpAdm in Choongwon Jeong et al [11] as:

59.8% Ulaanzuukh-SlabGrave + 32.7% Han + 7.5% Sarmatian (p-value 0.91). Since Ulaanzuukh is almost 100% E. Eurasian, this would indicate that Han-Xiongnu is over 95% E. Eurasian.
The qpAdm models shown in figure 4 show that we can reject a hypothesis of Kurds having genetic affinity with Scythians due to Kurds and Scythians sharing common ancestral proto-Indo-Iranian Sintashta-MLBA related genetic substructure. Additionally, the models shown in figure 4 are able to validate our hypothesis of Kurds receiving Central Asian Scythian admixture post 2700 year old Hasanlu-IA (Mede), since replacing Iran-Chl with Iran-IA doesn’t significantly reduce the Han-Xiongnu [11] related admixture in Kurds.



https://i.imgur.com/6anrOvB.jpg

Fig 4 – Passing qpAdm models for Kurds require 7-9% East Asian Mongolian Late Xiongnu Han related admixture even when Iran-Chl is replaced with Hasanlu-IA. This indicates that whereas Medes had substantial proto-Indo-Iranian Andronovo-MLBA related admixture, they did not carry Mongolian Iron-Age East Asian related admixture. Kurds received this type of admixture subsequent to the Medes, with the likely path being via Parthians, Scythians, and Sarmatians. We can not rule out the role of Medieval Turkics in this process. It should also be noted that there appears to be additional introgression of Levant-N type admixture into Iran post chalcollithic and pre-Iron-Age, possibly via the Assyrians. This becomes evident when Iran-Chl is replaced with Iran-IA (Mede) in Kurd models where the required amount of Levant-N admixture substantially drops.

[Aren]

Does this make sense?

Distance: 2.3651% / 0.02365084
Target: KypFather_scaled
36.5 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
24.2 TKM_IA
19.7 TUR_Barcin_C
8.4 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC
7.9 RUS_Baikal_BA_o
3.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Try this for your father.


Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,0.0799038,0.1186138,-0.1042362,-0.054264,-0.067151,-0.0124944,0.005499,-0.0086302,-0.0478176,-0.0168748,0.0024684,0.0005096,-0.001427,-0.0011558,0.0034204,0.0170244,-0.0028684,0.0046622,0.0082206,-0.014682,0.0070626,-0.005787,-0.0015282,-0.0162432,0.0072566

[Zoro]

Obviously, Haryana_Jats and Rors will score the highest and are very much separated from their Punjabi (Sikh) Jatt cousins. High caste Hindus from North score between 20-25% (but there's also a lil layer of WSHG) while the South Indian Brahmin scores a lil lower, (dunno other high caste South Indians). The distances are bit higher since it's more ancient than Sintashta.

Sintashta and Fatyanovo_BA are not the logical proxy for steppe ancestry in S Asians and Iranics. Turkmenistan-IA or Andronovo are more logical since they border Iranics and SC Asians. Look at the map below. Turkmenistan-IA is Yaz culture. This one is a 60/40 Andronovo/BMAC combo.

https://i.imgur.com/c3OoifJ.jpg https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

[vbnetkhio]

I believe the reason they used Levant-N is because of ambiguity reasons. Mesopotamian samples with Iran-Chl or IA in the same run create an overfitting situation which qpAdm hates. Using more than 1 mixed Iran-Chl/Anatolia-N/Kura-Araxes creates confidence issues with direction of geneflow and and standard errors get really high because it's not clear whether Iranians or Kurds have affinity to say SYR_EMBA because:


by Levant N you mean the PPN samples, or something else?

[Dr_Maul]

Try this for your father.


Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,0.0799038,0.1186138,-0.1042362,-0.054264,-0.067151,-0.0124944,0.005499,-0.0086302,-0.0478176,-0.0168748,0.0024684,0.0005096,-0.001427,-0.0011558,0.0034204,0.0170244,-0.0028684,0.0046622,0.0082206,-0.014682,0.0070626,-0.005787,-0.0015282,-0.0162432,0.0072566

dat distance tho
Target: DrMaul
Distance: 0.0123% / 0.01227950
35.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
29.3 TKM_IA
23.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
9.7 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
2.6 KAZ_Karluk

[Dr_Maul]

Best fit for me is using Kashkarchi


Target: DrMaul
Distance: 0.0126% / 0.01261375
43.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
25.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
18.7 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
8.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.7 KAZ_Karluk

Target: DrMaul
Distance: 0.0128% / 0.01276566
47.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
21.3 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
18.6 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
8.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.4 KAZ_Karluk

Target: DrMaul
Distance: 0.0131% / 0.01312583
46.7 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
21.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
19.5 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
8.7 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
3.9 KAZ_Karluk

[Kyp]

Try this for your father.


Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535
TKM_IA,0.103579,0.093429,-0.018102,0.042313,-0.035083,0.025937,0.003525,-0.003461,-0.044382,-0.040821,-0.011042,-0.00045,0.000595,-0.018579,0.024158,0.017369,-0.01356,-0.000887,0.001508,-0.01138,0.001248,0.000989,0.001849,0.009037,0.0019 16
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KAZ_Karluk,0.0631715,-0.151822,0.0173475,-0.0008075,-0.0467775,-0.0029285,0.004935,0.01223,-0.016055,-0.010205,-0.020055,-0.000824,0,-0.0026835,0.0107895,-0.0039115,-0.0137555,0.004181,0.0072905,-0.0019385,-0.0099825,-0.002164,-0.001479,-0.0019885,0.004071
TUR_Arslantepe_EBA,0.1032945,0.1546142,-0.0594908,-0.089552,-0.0198495,-0.0290045,0.0017625,-0.010615,-0.0177422,0.012483,0.0054808,0.0017985,-0.005649,0.003888,-0.0106202,-0.0020882,0.0073667,0.0017735,0.0029852,0.0010945,-0.001435,0.004235,-0.0016332,-0.0043682,-0.000509
IRN_Seh_Gabi_C,0.0799038,0.1186138,-0.1042362,-0.054264,-0.067151,-0.0124944,0.005499,-0.0086302,-0.0478176,-0.0168748,0.0024684,0.0005096,-0.001427,-0.0011558,0.0034204,0.0170244,-0.0028684,0.0046622,0.0082206,-0.014682,0.0070626,-0.005787,-0.0015282,-0.0162432,0.0072566


The Mazandarani part is actually very distant (more distant than I thought initially), I doubt it could've contributed this much. The Persian part (25%) is from Isfahan province.

I can't make sense of this result tbh:

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 0.0240% / 0.02396414
49.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
23.4 TKM_IA
16.4 KAZ_Karluk
7.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
3.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

[Mejgusu]

Zoro what do you expect, that i should applaud that you used sources which claim Kurds are the most Central Asian people from Mugla to Golestan? There are Kurds with no east eurasian and less than 7% north european. Even you would mean the non/pre-Turkic steppe this would be wrong. You are not really different to other Western Iranics regarding steppe ancestry, just more Anatolian/SW-Asian shifted.

[Zoro]

by Levant N you mean the PPN samples, or something else?

The highest coverage sample of Israel-PPBN

[Zoro]

Zoro what do you expect, that i should applaud that you used sources which claim Kurds are the most Central Asian people from Mugla to Golestan? There are Kurds with no east eurasian and less than 7% north european. Even you would mean the non/pre-Turkic steppe this would be wrong. You are not really different to other Western Iranics regarding steppe ancestry, just more Anatolian/SW-Asian shifted.


If you want to go with your Gedmatch calculator over 5 scientific papers or studies have at it

[Mejgusu]

If you want to go with your Gedmatch calculator over 5 scientific papers or studies have at it

If even unknown internet users are more accurate, then this tells enough about your scientific papers. Accept facts, personally i neither try to negate Kurdish identity nor i try to be nasty but your points are nonsense. I wont say why, other already explained the facts.

[Demhat]

Lol which fucking Saka were West Iranic this is already on Proto-Shaman troll level.

What kind of clown are you actually? I am not going to stay calm when you put words in my mouth which I never used.

I never claimed they are West Iranic can't you read properly? I said how can you use language (West vs East Iranic) as argument if you claim in the same comment that Turkic speaking Kazakh are more Saka than Pashtuns and Tajiks. You don't need to speak a certain language to have admixture from that group what kind of nonsense is this?

Also you don't even understand the phoenetic reasons for the West-East division which is in allot of modern linguistic cases not a widely accepted method anymore. With more Bactrian findings allot of modern linguists to not support this model anymore but a West-Central-East model with various dialects/languages inbetween. More like a network than a simple tree model.

On top of that you claim Sogdians are not Saka while Saka was an umbrella for most East Iranic tribes. Sogdian is a middle Iranic descend of Saka/Scythian. Also our understanding of Saka language is Khotanese from the Kingdom of Khotan, far south from Kazakhstan on the territory between West China, Tajikistan, Northeast Pakistan and East Afghanistan, you absolutely uneducated child.

I repeat learn to read and start understanding the linguistic groups better you use Ossetians who are descend of Alans (Sarmatian descend/related) as example while claiming mostly Sogdian descend Tajiks are less Scythian. While in fact linguistically Sogdian is closer to other Scythian groups than Sarmatian/Alan is. You are so dumb it's just insane to think some people would even dare to think what you say is more than just garbage.


Fact of the matter is Tajiks are likely genetically the most (or at least one of the most) genetic Saka descend group in all of Eurasia. And Dari and Pashtuns are not far off. You can argue about Ossetians depending on if yu consider Sarmatians Scythians or just Scythian related (imo they are Scythian related).

And there is absolutely no doubt that there is real Scythian ancestry on the Iranian plateau and this ancestry definitely exceeds the 1(lol) percent.

[Arhat]

You seriously need to learn how to read you low life clown. I am not going to stay calm when you put words in my mouth which I never used.

I never claimed they are West Iranic are you brain damaged? I said how can you use language (West vs East Iranic) as argument if you claim in the same fucking comment that Turkic speaking Kazakh are more Saka than Pashtuns and Tajiks. You don't need to speak a certain language to have admixture from that group what kind of nonsense is this?

On top of that you claim Sogdians are not Saka while Saka was an umbrella for most East Iranic tribes. Sogdian is a middle Iranic descend of Saka/Scythian. Also our understanding of Saka language is Khotanese from the Kingdom of Khotan, far south from Kazakhstan on the territory between West China, Tajikistan, Northeast Pakistan and East Afghanistan, you absolutely uneducated child.

I repeat learn to read and start understanding the linguistic groups better you use Ossetians who are descend of Alans (Sarmatian descend/related) as example while claiming mostly Sogdian descend Tajiks are less Scythian. While in fact linguistically Sogdian is closer to other Scythian groups than Sarmatian/Alan is. You are so dumb it's just insane to think some people would even dare to think what you say is more than just garbage.


Fact of the matter is Tajiks are likely genetically the most (or at least one of the most) genetic Saka descend group in all of Eurasia. And Dari and Pashtuns are not far off. You can argue about Ossetians depending on if yu consider Sarmatians Scythians or just Scythian related (imo they are Scythian related).

And there is absolutely no doubt that there is real Scythian ancestry on the Iranian plateau and this ancestry definitely exceeds the 1(lol) percent.

Saka lived in Kazakhstan for 1000 years and orginated there unlike in Kurdistan or Afghanistan; so of course Kazakh have more direct ancestry from them even when very much diluted. Their Y-DNA also matches ancient Saka you moron. Tajiks are mainly descendatns of Bactrians, Sogdians + recent Turkic and West Iranian ancestry. Saka ancestry is surely present among Tajiks in Tajikistan and North Afghanistan but mainly via Turks and diluted. Tajiks from Pansjhir or East Afghanistan who are similar to Dards and Pamiri have barely any of it.

Do you think Yfull is a turanian conspiracy too?. Most ancient Saka were under this clade and it is still found among Kazakh but was not found among one Iranian, Kurd, Afghan or even Tajik.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S23592/

Sogdians were entire different people from Saka even when they got their ethnonym from Saka. Pashtun is also derived from the term Parsa just like Persian but this does not mean Pashtuns and Persians were the same people. Names can travel because of elites and other reasons.

I never wrote Ossetians are not descendants of Sarmatians they surely have direct Sarmatian ancestry even when mixed but their ancestors were Sarmatians, who even when very similar to Central Asian Saka were genetically quite distinct.

Khotanese is closer related to Pamiri than to Saka languages or even Sogdian it was surely influenced by Saka but is not a direct descendant of it

[Trouble]

Andronovo is barely different from Sintashta. Even the most eastern samples(krasnoyarsk) are only like 5% extra WSHG. From Corded Ware, to sintashta, to Srubnaya, to Andronovo these MLBA steppe groups are essentially 70% yamnaya and 30% neolithic Euro.

If Sintashta is failing in modeling Indo-Iranian populations it's probably due to some unique drift among Andronovo which causes it, because otherwise the core ancestry is essentially the same. TKM_IA btw is roughly half MLBA steppe and the other half BMAC or Yazd culture, leaning slightly more steppe.

[Zoro]

Andronovo is barely different from Sintashta. Even the most eastern samples(krasnoyarsk) are only like 5% extra WSHG. From Corded Ware, to sintashta, to Srubnaya, to Andronovo these MLBA steppe groups are essentially 70% yamnaya and 30% neolithic Euro.

If Sintashta is failing in modeling Indo-Iranian populations it's probably due to some unique drift among Andronovo which causes it, because otherwise the core ancestry is essentially the same. TKM_IA btw is roughly half MLBA steppe and the other half BMAC or Yazd culture, leaning slightly more steppe.

https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

https://i.imgur.com/xhhp5Fq.jpg

Look at the p-values. Very different !

[Kaazi]

Sintashta and Fatyanovo_BA are not the logical proxy for steppe ancestry in S Asians and Iranics. Turkmenistan-IA or Andronovo are more logical since they border Iranics and SC Asians. Look at the map below. Turkmenistan-IA is Yaz culture. This one is a 60/40 Andronovo/BMAC combo.

https://i.imgur.com/c3OoifJ.jpg https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

Do you have Andronovo samples?

[Zoro]

What kind of clown are you actually? I am not going to stay calm when you put words in my mouth which I never used.

I never claimed they are West Iranic can't you read properly? I said how can you use language (West vs East Iranic) as argument if you claim in the same comment that Turkic speaking Kazakh are more Saka than Pashtuns and Tajiks. You don't need to speak a certain language to have admixture from that group what kind of nonsense is this?

Also you don't even understand the phoenetic reasons for the West-East division which is in allot of modern linguistic cases not a widely accepted method anymore. With more Bactrian findings allot of modern linguists to not support this model anymore but a West-Central-East model with various dialects/languages inbetween. More like a network than a simple tree model.

On top of that you claim Sogdians are not Saka while Saka was an umbrella for most East Iranic tribes. Sogdian is a middle Iranic descend of Saka/Scythian. Also our understanding of Saka language is Khotanese from the Kingdom of Khotan, far south from Kazakhstan on the territory between West China, Tajikistan, Northeast Pakistan and East Afghanistan, you absolutely uneducated child.

I repeat learn to read and start understanding the linguistic groups better you use Ossetians who are descend of Alans (Sarmatian descend/related) as example while claiming mostly Sogdian descend Tajiks are less Scythian. While in fact linguistically Sogdian is closer to other Scythian groups than Sarmatian/Alan is. You are so dumb it's just insane to think some people would even dare to think what you say is more than just garbage.


Fact of the matter is Tajiks are likely genetically the most (or at least one of the most) genetic Saka descend group in all of Eurasia. And Dari and Pashtuns are not far off. You can argue about Ossetians depending on if yu consider Sarmatians Scythians or just Scythian related (imo they are Scythian related).

And there is absolutely no doubt that there is real Scythian ancestry on the Iranian plateau and this ancestry definitely exceeds the 1(lol) percent.

You're debating something with people who don't even know how to read charts like this from the Scythian paper with Harvard authors. It's pointless.

https://i.imgur.com/XMrqlG4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TWJHPAp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uIUftgD.jpg

Sorted from most similar to Iraqi Kurd to least similar

https://i.imgur.com/EqIZor7.jpg

[Zoro]

Do you have Andronovo samples?

All datasets have multiple Andronovo samples. Why would the G25 not have Andronovo samples. This is what I had jokingly posted earlier with regards to that


But the dataset has a bunch of Andronovo samples, some labeled Russian-Andronovo and yes since Andronovo bordered Yaz and was close to Iranian border, it makes sense why formal stat models for Kurds and Iranics prefer Andronovo over Sintashta.

Hmm I’m puzzled why wouldn’t there be any Andronovo samples in G25 dataset? Could it be that the G25 man is Polish-centric and he didn’t include them because he doesn’t want users to use them and wants to use Sintashta instead since Sintashta is a little closer to Europeans and It was the more European Sintashta that civilized the uncivilized Iranics and S Asians?

Just kidding. That can’t be true it’s too devious

Are you seriously saying G25 is devoid of actual Andronovo labeled samples?

[Trouble]

https://eurasiandna.com/?p=2659

https://i.imgur.com/xhhp5Fq.jpg

Look at the p-values. Very different !

What andronovo sample did you use?

[Zoro]

What andronovo sample did you use?

I didn't do that. I copied it from the website. Since I don't see any sample numbers I'm assuming they used all the samples together under Russia-Andronovo

[Kaazi]

All datasets have multiple Andronovo samples. Why would the G25 not have Andronovo samples. This is what I had jokingly posted earlier with regards to that

Yaz is known as ancestral to Iranic populations. It clearly doesn't work good for Indo-Aryans since the BMAC-Steppe is not consistent at 46/54 like the Yaz (TKM_IA). Some Indo-Aryans almost lack BMAC as if they jumped over it. I'd like to test against Andronovo samples.

[Zoro]

Yaz is known as ancestral to Iranic populations. It clearly doesn't work good for Indo-Aryans since the BMAC-Steppe is not consistent at 46/54 like the Yaz (TKM_IA). Some Indo-Aryans almost lack BMAC as if they jumped over it. I'd like to test against Andronovo samples.

I was mainly referring to Pashtuns and Baloch. I'm not very familiar with the situation of Indians so you could be correct but Andronovo lacks BMAC for the most part and I suspect would be a better fit than Sintashta because of it's wide geographic distribution closer to S Asia

[Leto]

But I suggest you run one Syrian Kurdish sample from the recent West Asian study, it's more North European than most Kurds or Persians.
Here it is, the most North European Kurd
Syrian:5AJ112,0.097888,0.101553,-0.05242,-0.025194,-0.03693,-0.00251,0.004935,-0.005077,-0.025361,-0.022962,-0.002598,-0.002847,0.003419,-0.003303,-0.004614,0.014452,0.008084,-0.001647,-0.000251,-0.018009,0.000374,-0.007296,0.000986,-0.00482,0.003353

Target: Syrian:5AJ112
Distance: 2.5288% / 0.02528840
45.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
23.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
22.8 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
7.0 KAZ_Karluk
1.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Syrian:5AJ112
Distance: 2.5427% / 0.02542652
44.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
24.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
23.4 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
5.2 KAZ_Karluk
2.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

You guys can try and find some better models for it.
KAZ_Mys is a good one, I remember it from Gedmatch. Those few samples are from Southeastern Kazakhstan, around Almaty.

[vbnetkhio]

Do you have Andronovo samples?

in G25 most of the samples beggining with KAZ_ are actually Andronovo, they were just renamed to more specific sites within Andronovo.

[Zoro]

Here it is, the most North European Kurd
Syrian:5AJ112,0.097888,0.101553,-0.05242,-0.025194,-0.03693,-0.00251,0.004935,-0.005077,-0.025361,-0.022962,-0.002598,-0.002847,0.003419,-0.003303,-0.004614,0.014452,0.008084,-0.001647,-0.000251,-0.018009,0.000374,-0.007296,0.000986,-0.00482,0.003353

Target: Syrian:5AJ112
Distance: 2.5288% / 0.02528840
45.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
23.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
22.8 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
7.0 KAZ_Karluk
1.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Syrian:5AJ112
Distance: 2.5427% / 0.02542652
44.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
24.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
23.4 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
5.2 KAZ_Karluk
2.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

You guys can try and find some better models for it.
KAZ_Mys is a good one, I remember it from Gedmatch. Those few samples are from Southeastern Kazakhstan, around Almaty.


I got the qpAdm models back for this sample. The difference between the Syrian Kurds and Iraqi Kurd is:

1- Syrian Kurd is LESS Levant-N shifted and MORE Turkmenistan-IA shifted than Iraqi Kurd
2- Iraqi Kurd is MORE Levant-N shifted and MORE Eastern Scythian & Mongolian shifted than Syrian Kurd

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Sarmatian-Xiongnu-HUD001
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
33.9%
17.0%
17.9%
31.3%
0.37
304719


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
39.5%
10.2%
28.5%
21.8%
0.35
84534

</tbody>




<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Hun-TianShan-DA101
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
38.5%
18.7%
16.1%
26.7%
0.28
298135


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.2%
12.1%
26.6%
17.1%
0.17
82434

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>



<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Han-Xiongnu-TUK002
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
37.3%
19.0%
34.7%
9.0%
0.01
300297


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.3%
13.8%
37.0%
4.8%
0.03
83199

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

[Zoro]

Above table formatted for better view

QpAdm models


1- Syrian Kurd is LESS Levant-N shifted and MORE Turkmenistan-IA shifted than Iraqi Kurd
2- Iraqi Kurd is MORE Levant-N shifted and MORE Eastern Scythian & Mongolian shifted than Syrian Kurd



<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Sarmatian-Xiongnu-HUD001
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
33.9%
17.0%
17.9%
31.3%
0.37
304719


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
39.5%
10.2%
28.5%
21.8%
0.35
84534

</tbody>




<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Hun-TianShan-DA101
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
38.5%
18.7%
16.1%
26.7%
0.28
298135


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.2%
12.1%
26.6%
17.1%
0.17
82434

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>



<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Han-Xiongnu-TUK002
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
37.3%
19.0%
34.7%
9.0%
0.01
300297


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.3%
13.8%
37.0%
4.8%
0.03
83199

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

[Leto]

In my terms that's basically the same thing - "more North European". I'd like to connect with that guy and inform him about his increased Aryanic influence. Hopefully he is R1a and not a damn Semite or something :cool:

[Kyp]

Here it is, the most North European Kurd
Syrian:5AJ112,0.097888,0.101553,-0.05242,-0.025194,-0.03693,-0.00251,0.004935,-0.005077,-0.025361,-0.022962,-0.002598,-0.002847,0.003419,-0.003303,-0.004614,0.014452,0.008084,-0.001647,-0.000251,-0.018009,0.000374,-0.007296,0.000986,-0.00482,0.003353

Target: Syrian:5AJ112
Distance: 2.5288% / 0.02528840
45.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
23.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
22.8 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
7.0 KAZ_Karluk
1.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Syrian:5AJ112
Distance: 2.5427% / 0.02542652
44.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
24.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
23.4 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
5.2 KAZ_Karluk
2.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

You guys can try and find some better models for it.
KAZ_Mys is a good one, I remember it from Gedmatch. Those few samples are from Southeastern Kazakhstan, around Almaty.

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 2.3161% / 0.02316123
41.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
21.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
17.3 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
17.1 KAZ_Karluk
2.5 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Lower Aryan, but the Turkic contains Steppe too. Who is more northern? And what is the explanation for my father scoring so high Anatolian instead of Iranian Plateau. It doesn't add up with my YDNA.

[Zoro]

In my terms that's basically the same thing - "more North European". I'd like to connect with that guy and inform him about his increased Aryanic influence. Hopefully he is R1a and not a damn Semite or something :cool:

Can’t see him as a Semite with less Levant-N and more Iran-Chl and Tkm-IA than Iraqi Kurd. Good chance he’ll have one of the steppe Mt or Y DNAs

[Leto]

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 2.3161% / 0.02316123
41.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
21.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
17.3 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
17.1 KAZ_Karluk
2.5 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Lower Aryan, but the Turkic contains Steppe too. Who is more northern? And what is the explanation for my father scoring so high Anatolian instead of Iranian Plateau. It doesn't add up with my YDNA.
And KAZ_Mys? I think it's a bit older, hence less mixed, presumably. Also a bit more Northern.
I can't say anything about those non-Steppe components.

[Leto]

Can’t see him as a Semite with less Levant-N and more Iran-Chl and Tkm-IA than Iraqi Kurd. Good chance he’ll have one of the steppe Mt or Y DNAs
I was referring to Y DNA, that comment isn't anti-Semitic, don't worry ;)
Pahli who is an Iranian Kurd is J1 which in layman's terms means "Semitic", although I am aware of its high frequency in mountainous Dagestan.

[Kyp]

And KAZ_Mys? I think it's a bit older, hence less mixed, presumably. Also a bit more Northern.
I can't say anything about those non-Steppe components.

Doesn't change much..

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 2.3569% / 0.02356865
41.9 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
21.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
17.6 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
15.0 KAZ_Karluk
4.3 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

I probably should split all the Mongoloid with the Steppe components.

[Zoro]

Above table formatted for better view

QpAdm models


1- Syrian Kurd is LESS Levant-N shifted and MORE Turkmenistan-IA shifted than Iraqi Kurd
2- Iraqi Kurd is MORE Levant-N shifted and MORE Eastern Scythian & Mongolian shifted than Syrian Kurd



<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Sarmatian-Xiongnu-HUD001
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
33.9%
17.0%
17.9%
31.3%
0.37
304719


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
39.5%
10.2%
28.5%
21.8%
0.35
84534

</tbody>




<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Hun-TianShan-DA101
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
38.5%
18.7%
16.1%
26.7%
0.28
298135


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.2%
12.1%
26.6%
17.1%
0.17
82434

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>



<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Han-Xiongnu-TUK002
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
37.3%
19.0%
34.7%
9.0%
0.01
300297


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.3%
13.8%
37.0%
4.8%
0.03
83199

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>


So basically the higher pvalue models (Sarmatian) are generally the better models. Also what we see is both Kurds are roughly 50% Indo-Iranian (TKM-IA + Scythian) and 50% ancient W.Asian. This 50% “Aryan” is what caused linguistic and cultural change

It’s a different subject as to what we consider “Steppe”

[Demhat]

Seriously no reason to keep discussing with uneducated kids that contradict their own arguments (West Iranic have no Saka because language, but Kazakh Turkic speakers are the most Saka lol). Before you even try to debate with me learn basic linguistics lol. You probably think Northwest Iranic languages are considered as such because there is a clear West East distinction while in reality. Northwest Iranic is agroup that was added as being different from Old Persian (Western) and Old Avestan ("Eastern"). And the only reason it is called Northwestern is because of its geographic distribution. In fact linguists do not even agree that Avestan was yet effected by the Eastern Western "division" to begin with. The linguistic classification is much more complex than your brain being capable to cope with.

[Zoro]

Seriously no reason to keep discussing with uneducated kids that contradict their own arguments (West Iranic have no Saka because language, but Kazakh Turkic speakers are the most Saka lol). Before you even try to debate with me learn basic linguistics lol. You probably think Northwest Iranic languages are considered as such because there is a clear West East distinction while in reality. Northwest Iranic is agroup that was added as being different from Old Persian (old Southwestern) and Old Avestan ("Eastern"). And the only reason it is called Northwestern is because of its geographic distribution. In fact linguists do not even agree that Avestan was yet effected by the Eastern Western "division" to begin with. The linguistic classification is much more complex than your brain being capable to cope with.


Indeed the classifications are very murky. For example kurdish shares more with pashto than ossetic-pashto. Additionally there are dozens of nouns and verbs pashto-kurdish to exclusion of other Iranian languages. Kurdish along with balochi have been placed on Parthian branch with Mede substrate.

[Aren]

Target: KypFather_scaled
Distance: 2.3161% / 0.02316123
41.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
21.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
17.3 UZB_Kashkarchi_BA
17.1 KAZ_Karluk
2.5 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Lower Aryan, but the Turkic contains Steppe too. Who is more northern? And what is the explanation for my father scoring so high Anatolian instead of Iranian Plateau. It doesn't add up with my YDNA.

Arslantepe_EBA is the base component for Armenians, and from what we see on Gedmatch probably also constitutes the majority ancestry of the Udis and Eastern Turks. Azeris derive from both these populations, from the Udis and from some backmigration of Eastern Turks - so it makes sense.

Btw I also get a very good fit with this model, but I prefer a more northern source of Steppe, from the Caucasus rather than TKM_IA. Interestingly I score more Seh Gabi than your father.

Target: Helves_scaled
Distance: 1.7644% / 0.01764417
52.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
28.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
13.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
4.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.2 KAZ_Karluk

[Mejgusu]

Everytime naming Medes with presenting ridiculous charts/sources dont make your theories right, first accept this before you are complaining about others opinions...

[Kyp]

Arslantepe_EBA is the base component for Armenians, and from what we see on Gedmatch probably also constitutes the majority ancestry of the Udis and Eastern Turks. Azeris derive from both these populations, from the Udis and from some backmigration of Eastern Turks - so it makes sense.

Btw I also get a very good fit with this model, but I prefer a more northern source of Steppe, from the Caucasus rather than TKM_IA. Interestingly I score more Seh Gabi than your father.

Target: Helves_scaled
Distance: 1.7644% / 0.01764417
52.0 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
28.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
13.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA
4.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.2 KAZ_Karluk

I find it odd because my father has a lot of recent Persian (25%) and also distant Kurdish and Mazandarani ancestry.

Some averages with the same model:

Target: Azeri_Iran
Distance: 1.0981% / 0.01098055
37.9 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
32.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.1 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
13.5 KAZ_Karluk
1.9 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Azeri_Turkey
Distance: 1.9622% / 0.01962219
43.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
26.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
15.7 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
11.3 KAZ_Karluk
2.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 1.1090% / 0.01109040
47.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
21.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
18.5 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
7.3 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2939% / 0.01293859
48.5 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
29.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
17.8 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
2.4 KAZ_Karluk
1.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 1.3771% / 0.01377110
49.1 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
22.5 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
20.7 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
7.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.7 KAZ_Karluk

[Demhat]

Indeed the classifications are very murky. For example kurdish shares more with pashto than ossetic-pashto. Additionally there are dozens of nouns and verbs pashto-kurdish to exclusion of other Iranian languages. Kurdish along with balochi have been placed on Parthian branch with Mede substrate.

Modern linguistics does not consider Bactrian as classic "East Iranic" anymore. This was when we had very little actual Bactrian samples. New findings show a different picture of Bactrian phoenetics and also allot of variation. It is just that it always takes time before old and once universally accepted theories are replaced, because allot of other scientific work is based on these theories. We see that also in genetics. Where some people still can't get rid of certain theories despite DNA clearly disproving them or at least showing that they need heavy adjustments.

Allot of modern linguists divide the languages into a Southern, Northern and Center periphery with all three once again having areal phenomena(East, West, Center) by connecting nodes. Bactrian is more Center than really Eastern. But most important point is a classic tree model does not work. You need a network to explain the actual relationship.

[Zoro]

I find it odd because my father has a lot of recent Persian (25%) and also distant Kurdish and Mazandarani ancestry.

Some averages with the same model:

Target: Azeri_Iran
Distance: 1.0981% / 0.01098055
37.9 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
32.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.1 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
13.5 KAZ_Karluk
1.9 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Azeri_Turkey
Distance: 1.9622% / 0.01962219
43.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
26.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
15.7 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
11.3 KAZ_Karluk
2.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 1.1090% / 0.01109040
47.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
21.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
18.5 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
7.3 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2939% / 0.01293859
48.5 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
29.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
17.8 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
2.4 KAZ_Karluk
1.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 1.3771% / 0.01377110
49.1 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
22.5 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
20.7 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
7.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.7 KAZ_Karluk

This is a big reason I don't like G25 because putting these types of tools which themselves are shaky to start out with and in the hands of amateurs makes for a dangerous combination and readers are misled by the results. Not to mention the G25 has no way to validate results. There's no p-values and standard errors to let users know which models are overfitted or invalid.

1- You can't use Arsalantepe-EBA and Iran-Chl in the same run. Overfitting problem. If you ever try it with qpAdm you'll have huge standard errors. Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl were discussed in Damgaard 2018 and Lazaridis 2017. Anatolia-EBA and Iran-Chl are clearly too intertwined with each other to be used in the same run.

From Supplementary Information "The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers", Lazaridis 2017


We first model Anatolia_ChL as a mix of Anatolia_N and a population A (Table S7.17). Only
populations from Iran and Armenia work as sources of the input into Anatolia. This input is quantified as at least 32.9±7.9% when Iran_ChL is used as a source population A.

Iran-Chl is modeled in Lazaridis as 54% Anatolia-Chl + 46% Iran-N

Damgaard 2018 "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" in one of their figures shows Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl as having about the same ancestry proportions.

So obviously the Kurdish results posted don't make sense and those KAZ-Karluk results are garbage. No way South Iranians (Fars) have more E Asian than Kurds. Even a quick glance at the qpWave table below will tell you that.

Compare Iraqi-Kurd with Iranian Fars CHISQ in the columns with near 100% E Eurasian pops (highlighted yellow). In all of those Iraqi Kurds are significantly more E. Asian shifted than Iranian-Fars


<colgroup width="146"></colgroup> <colgroup width="141"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85"></colgroup> <colgroup width="120"></colgroup> <colgroup width="85" span="5"></colgroup> <tbody>
POP
Early-Med-Turk
Fofonovo-EN
Kazakhstan-Nomad-Hun-Sarmatian
Khovsgol-LBA
Late-Med-Mongol
Late-Xiongnu
Late-Xiongnu-Han
Ulaanzuukh-SlabGrave


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
938
1153
1195
1320
1517
1645
1232
1308


Iranian-Fars
1372
1232
1545
2193
2214
2426
1560
1948

</tbody>

Source: http://www.EurasianDNA.com

https://i.imgur.com/JizpvQP.jpg

[Zoro]

Above table formatted for better view

QpAdm models


1- Syrian Kurd is LESS Levant-N shifted and MORE Turkmenistan-IA shifted than Iraqi Kurd
2- Iraqi Kurd is MORE Levant-N shifted and MORE Eastern Scythian & Mongolian shifted than Syrian Kurd



<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Sarmatian-Xiongnu-HUD001
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
33.9%
17.0%
17.9%
31.3%
0.37
304719


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
39.5%
10.2%
28.5%
21.8%
0.35
84534

</tbody>




<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Hun-TianShan-DA101
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
38.5%
18.7%
16.1%
26.7%
0.28
298135


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.2%
12.1%
26.6%
17.1%
0.17
82434

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>



<colgroup><col width="151"><col width="154"><col width="100"><col width="133"><col width="189"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>
SAMPLE
Iran-C-HajiFiruz-I4349
Levant-N
Turkmenistan-IA
Han-Xiongnu-TUK002
P-value
SNPs


Kurd-Kurmanji-IQ
37.3%
19.0%
34.7%
9.0%
0.01
300297


Kurd-Syria_5AJ112
44.3%
13.8%
37.0%
4.8%
0.03
83199

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

So basically the higher pvalue models (Sarmatian) are generally the better models. Also what we see is both Kurds are roughly 50% Indo-Iranian (TKM-IA + Scythian) and 50% ancient W.Asian. This 50% “Aryan” is what caused linguistic and cultural change

It’s a different subject as to what we consider “Steppe”



This is what you should go by

[Kyp]

This is a big reason I don't like G25 because putting these types of tools which themselves are shaky to start out with and in the hands of amateurs makes for a dangerous combination and readers are misled by the results. Not to mention the G25 has no way to validate results. There's no p-values and standard errors to let users know which models are overfitted or invalid.

1- You can't use Arsalantepe-EBA and Iran-Chl in the same run. Overfitting problem. If you ever try it with qpAdm you'll have huge standard errors. Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl were discussed in Damgaard 2018 and Lazaridis 2017. Anatolia-EBA and Iran-Chl are clearly too intertwined with each other to be used in the same run.

From Supplementary Information "The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers", Lazaridis 2017



Iran-Chl is modeled in Lazaridis as 54% Anatolia-Chl + 46% Iran-N

Damgaard 2018 "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" in one of their figures shows Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl as having about the same ancestry proportions.

So obviously the Kurdish results posted don't make sense and those KAZ-Karluk results are garbage. No way South Iranians (Fars) have more E Asian than Kurds. Even a quick glance at the qpWave table below will tell you that.

Compare Iraqi-Kurd with Iranian Fars CHISQ in the columns with near 100% E Eurasian pops (highlighted yellow). In all of those Iraqi Kurds are significantly more E. Asian shifted than Iranian-Fars


Everyone who knows a bit about Iranian history knows why an Fars AVERAGE would should higher Turkic input than Kurdish average. An average should not be compared to comparing a singular result (god knows which sample you keep on using to proof your points i'm not falling for it).

https://i.imgur.com/1lxXi46.jpg

[Leto]

Because of some of you people Arhat seems to have left again. I value his input very much, moro than Zoro's charts.

[Zoro]

Everyone who knows a bit about Iranian history knows why an Fars AVERAGE would should higher Turkic input than Kurdish average. An average should not be compared to comparing a singular result.

https://i.imgur.com/1lxXi46.jpg

This is a big reason I don't like G25 because putting these types of tools which themselves are shaky to start out with and in the hands of amateurs makes for a dangerous combination and readers are misled by the results. Not to mention the G25 has no way to validate results. There's no p-values and standard errors to let users know which models are overfitted or invalid.

1- You can't use Arsalantepe-EBA and Iran-Chl in the same run. Overfitting problem. If you ever try it with qpAdm you'll have huge standard errors. Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl were discussed in Damgaard 2018 and Lazaridis 2017. Anatolia-EBA and Iran-Chl are clearly too intertwined with each other to be used in the same run.

From Supplementary Information "The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers", Lazaridis 2017

We first model Anatolia_ChL as a mix of Anatolia_N and a population A (Table S7.17). Only
populations from Iran and Armenia work as sources of the input into Anatolia. This input is quantified as at least 32.9±7.9% when Iran_ChL is used as a source population A.


Iran-Chl is modeled in Lazaridis as 54% Anatolia-Chl + 46% Iran-N

Damgaard 2018 "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" in one of their figures shows Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl as having about the same ancestry proportions.

So obviously the Kurdish results posted don't make sense and those KAZ-Karluk results are garbage. No way South Iranians (Fars) have more E Asian than Kurds. Even a quick glance at the qpWave table below will tell you that.

[Zoro]

Because of some of you people Arhat seems to have left again. I value his input very much, moro than Zoro's charts.

Who gives a fuck about a layman's opinion over a expert researcher. No need to speculate about their expertise the technical content of the articles at www.eurasiandna.com
speak for themselves

[Leto]

I find it odd because my father has a lot of recent Persian (25%) and also distant Kurdish and Mazandarani ancestry.

Some averages with the same model:

Target: Azeri_Iran
Distance: 1.0981% / 0.01098055
37.9 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
32.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
14.1 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
13.5 KAZ_Karluk
1.9 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Azeri_Turkey
Distance: 1.9622% / 0.01962219
43.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
26.9 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
15.7 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
11.3 KAZ_Karluk
2.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Fars
Distance: 1.1090% / 0.01109040
47.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
21.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
18.5 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
7.3 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
5.4 KAZ_Karluk

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.2939% / 0.01293859
48.5 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
29.5 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
17.8 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
2.4 KAZ_Karluk
1.8 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Target: Iranian_Zoroastrian
Distance: 1.3771% / 0.01377110
49.1 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
22.5 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
20.7 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
7.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.7 KAZ_Karluk
I think some of the Steppe went into Karluk for the Azerbaijanis. No way Fars is more Steppe than Northern AZ.

[Kyp]

[SIZE=3]No way South Iranians (Fars) have more E Asian than Kurds. Even a quick glance at the qpWave table below will tell you that.

It's very clear to me after looking at multiple Fars province and Kurdish results. As you can see Fars province is not gold standard of the average South Iranian as it has recent nomadic turkic and arab input (supported by Autosomal results). It looks like recent Iranian history is not your expertise.

https://i.imgur.com/1lxXi46.jpg

[Zoro]

It's very clear to me after looking at multiple Fars province and Kurdish results. As you can see Fars province is not gold standard of the average South Iranian as it has recent nomadic turkic and arab input (supported by Autosomal results). It looks like recent Iranian history is not your expertise.

https://i.imgur.com/1lxXi46.jpg

YOU KEEP SKIPPING OVER PARAGRAPHS 1-5. YOU CAN'T USE ARSALANTEPE-EBA AND IRAN-CHL IN THE SAME RUN FOR THE REASONS BELOW
AND YOU CAN'T SPECULATE ABOUT ANCIENT E ASIAN OR IRON AGE INPUT INTO KURDS VS OTHER IRANIANS BASED ON GEDMATCH OR G25. YOU MUST USE QPADM

This is a big reason I don't like G25 because putting these types of tools which themselves are shaky to start out with and in the hands of amateurs makes for a dangerous combination and readers are misled by the results. Not to mention the G25 has no way to validate results. There's no p-values and standard errors to let users know which models are overfitted or invalid.

1- You can't use Arsalantepe-EBA and Iran-Chl in the same run. Overfitting problem. If you ever try it with qpAdm you'll have huge standard errors. Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl were discussed in Damgaard 2018 and Lazaridis 2017. Anatolia-EBA and Iran-Chl are clearly too intertwined with each other to be used in the same run.

From Supplementary Information "The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers", Lazaridis 2017

We first model Anatolia_ChL as a mix of Anatolia_N and a population A (Table S7.17). Only
populations from Iran and Armenia work as sources of the input into Anatolia. This input is quantified as at least 32.9±7.9% when Iran_ChL is used as a source population A.


Iran-Chl is modeled in Lazaridis as 54% Anatolia-Chl + 46% Iran-N

Damgaard 2018 "The First Horse Herders and the Impact of Early Bronze Age Steppe Expansions into Asia" in one of their figures shows Anatolia-EBA and Anatolia-Chl as having about the same ancestry proportions.

So obviously the Kurdish results posted don't make sense and those KAZ-Karluk results are garbage. No way South Iranians (Fars) have more E Asian than Kurds. Even a quick glance at the qpWave table below will tell you that.

[Leto]

Who gives a fuck about a layman's opinion over a expert researcher. No need to speculate about their expertise the technical content of the articles at www.eurasiandna.com
speak for themselves
What if we don't care or don't want that shit? I for one can barely understand that "science". We're here for Gedmatch and G25. I think you should leave this forum.

[Zoro]

.....

[Zoro]

What if we don't care or don't want that shit? I for one can barely understand that "science". We're here for Gedmatch and G25. I think you should leave this forum.

I've said this before if you don't care about accuracy or real scientific analysis or want to stay in the dark then speak for yourself. I'm 100% sure that unlike you most people who aren't trolls or immature do care about accuracy, the truth and scientific analysis and do appreciate the tips I give and don't appreciate you speaking for them

And if you don't understand that science then the onus is on you to educate yourself

[Trouble]

DashtiKozi samples from Tajikistan. One of these guys is over 92% Sintashta, with only a 7.2 distance to Norwegians. Flipping crazy.

Target: TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258
Distance: 1.0305% / 0.01030529
91.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
6.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
2.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257
Distance: 1.1228% / 0.01122823
81.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA
6.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160
Distance: 1.8932% / 0.01893183
73.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
19.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
7.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG

[Leto]

DashtiKozi samples from Kazakhstan. One of these guys is over 92% Sintashta, with only a 7.2 distance to Norwegians. Flipping crazy.

Target: TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4258
Distance: 1.0305% / 0.01030529
91.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
6.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
2.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4257
Distance: 1.1228% / 0.01122823
81.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA
6.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA:I4160
Distance: 1.8932% / 0.01893183
73.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
19.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
7.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
TJK is Tajikistan. Are they still purely Steppe? Dashtikozi is a village near the city of Panjakent, in Western Tajikistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjakent

Run them with KAZ_Mys and Kashkarchi please.

[Trouble]

TJK is Tajikistan. Are they still purely Steppe? Dashtikozi is a village near the city of Panjakent, in Western Tajikistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjakent

Run them with KAZ_Mys and Kashkarchi please.

Fuck my life, yes I meant to write Tajikistan. Im really tired. I even looked up the village right before posting this and Ive been familiar with this sample for al ong time.

Ok.

Target: UZB_Kashkarchi_BA:I4255
Distance: 1.5860% / 0.01586006
87.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
7.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA
5.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: UZB_Kashkarchi_BA:I4153
Distance: 1.8541% / 0.01854126
92.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
6.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
2.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: KAZ_Mys_MLBA:I4783
Distance: 1.8398% / 0.01839828
83.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
8.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
7.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: KAZ_Mys_MLBA:I4782
Distance: 1.8422% / 0.01842156
92.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
7.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG

Target: KAZ_Mys_MLBA:I4322
Distance: 1.5203% / 0.01520342
85.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
10.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
4.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: KAZ_Mys_MLBA:I4321
Distance: 2.0332% / 0.02033227
77.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
10.2 TKM_Gonur1_BA

[Token]

What if we don't care or don't want that shit? I for one can barely understand that "science". We're here for Gedmatch and G25. I think you should leave this forum.

It is funny how he talks about expertise and then proceeds to link his amateur blog read by literally no one besides himself.

[Proto-Shaman]

TJK is Tajikistan. Are they still purely Steppe? Dashtikozi is a village near the city of Panjakent, in Western Tajikistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjakent

Run them with KAZ_Mys and Kashkarchi please.
In Panjakent Turkic phenotype prevails. So, it makes sense.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Now there are genomes from the Fatyanovo culture, but the quality is perhaps not the best.


Distance to: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.05683568 Norwegian
0.05692628 Swedish
0.05764281 Icelandic
0.05801272 Danish
0.05955439 Dutch

Tver, 2458 BC:


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:BOL003,0.1161,0.118817,0.069767,0 .076551,0.017234,0.027331,0.00376,0.002308,-0.013499,-0.025149,0.002598,-0.002248,-0.005203,-0.013625,0.024837,0.022275,0.019688,-0.011909,-0.014958,0.015257,0.003743,-0.000371,0.000493,0.004458,-0.010658

Moscow, 2653-2680 BC:


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:IVA001,0.10927,0.11577,0.067882,0 .075905,0.022466,0.034304,0.00141,0.009,-0.016771,-0.032074,-0.006983,0.002698,-0.013082,-0.011836,0.025108,0.009414,-0.00339,0.000633,0.009427,0.001501,0.012228,0.0068 01,-0.002218,0.000482,0.011376
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN002,0.124067,0.112724,0.047517 ,0.087856,0.005232,0.033746,0.00752,0.003923,-0.021066,-0.032438,-0.002598,-0.00015,-0.003865,-0.019267,0.025787,0.031291,0.004303,0.00114,-0.011313,0.005127,-0.005116,-0.007419,-0.000246,0.006627,-0.01449
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN004,0.121791,0.117801,0.055437 ,0.081719,0.015695,0.026495,0.002585,0.006231,-0.020657,-0.033167,0.004384,-0.004196,-0.008028,-0.025735,0.026194,0.011933,-0.009518,-0.002027,0.004399,-0.006378,0.009234,0.008408,-0.000493,0.003253,-0.010538

Yaroslavl, 2435-2753 BC:


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAL001,0.110408,0.098506,0.048271 ,0.079135,0.007078,0.034582,0.003995,-0.000231,-0.032724,-0.031891,-0.001461,0.006444,-0.012933,-0.024359,0.018458,0.017237,0.021513,0.004181,-0.003771,0.009755,-0.003244,-0.00507,0.007395,0.016026,-0.010179
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU001,0.120652,0.119832,0.04714, 0.07429,0.01508,0.02761,0.00282,-0.004384,-0.022498,-0.014397,-0.000162,0.012739,0.001635,-0.021194,0.026601,0.022673,0.010822,0.005068,-0.001257,0.006503,0.006364,-0.007048,0.002342,0.013616,-0.00958
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU002,0.122929,0.12491,0.04978,0 .078812,0.013849,0.025658,0.00705,0.004615,-0.011044,-0.025331,0.00682,-0.005095,-0.011447,-0.021744,0.034609,0.006364,-0.007953,-0.006081,-0.003771,0.004502,0.011979,0.006554,-0.005423,0.00241,0.000479
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NIK008AB,0.117238,0.116786,0.0463 86,0.060724,0.010771,0.024542,0.002115,-0.004154,-0.00634,-0.025878,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.001189,-0.015414,0.024294,0.00769,-0.00678,0.00038,0.007416,0.006753,-0.001497,0.009398,-0.005423,0.01446,-0.002634
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOD001,0.114961,0.12491,0.046386, 0.04845,0.027082,0.016455,0.005875,0.004846,-0.004704,-0.003827,-0.004222,0.013938,-0.019029,-0.003991,-0.0019,0.003315,0.034421,-0.006334,0.007416,0.016633,-0.007736,0.012489,0.005669,0.010483,-0.003592
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOR004,0.121791,0.108662,0.051288 ,0.083334,0.00954,0.019243,-0.000705,0.008538,-0.013294,-0.026789,-0.004384,-0.000899,0.004757,-0.011147,0.019272,0.006099,-0.016168,0.00152,0.007919,-0.000875,0.003743,0.000495,0.00037,-0.001084,-0.00479



<colgroup><col style="width:48pt" width="64" span="14"> </colgroup><tbody>
Target
Distance
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
TUR_Barcin_N
WHG
Dinka
MAR_Taforalt
Levant_PPNB
Yoruba
Han
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
ETH_4500BP
Nganassan
Jarawa


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAL001
0.03182021
73.2
18.2
5.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
1.4
1.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN002
0.03182860
73.0
17.0
9.2
0.0
0.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN004
0.03414739
68.4
20.2
11.2
0.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU001
0.03494888
66.0
24.4
9.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOR004
0.03420317
65.4
21.4
11.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.2
0.0
0.8
0.0
0.6
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU002
0.03394281
65.0
22.2
12.4
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NIK008AB
0.03100570
64.2
24.4
7.8
0.4
0.0
2.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.6
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:BOL003
0.03585899
63.6
20.4
13.8
0.0
2.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:IVA001
0.03574722
63.0
20.2
14.6
2.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOD001
0.04531487
52.2
37.6
8.8
1.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.4


Average
0.03488178
65.4
22.6
10.4
0.4
0.3
0.3
0.2
0.2
0.1
0.1
0.1
0.0

</tbody>

[Aren]

Now there are genomes from the Fatyanovo culture, but the quality is perhaps not the best.


Distance to: RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.05683568 Norwegian
0.05692628 Swedish
0.05764281 Icelandic
0.05801272 Danish
0.05955439 Dutch

Tver, 2458 BC:


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:BOL003,0.1161,0.118817,0.069767,0 .076551,0.017234,0.027331,0.00376,0.002308,-0.013499,-0.025149,0.002598,-0.002248,-0.005203,-0.013625,0.024837,0.022275,0.019688,-0.011909,-0.014958,0.015257,0.003743,-0.000371,0.000493,0.004458,-0.010658

Moscow, 2653-2680 BC:


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:IVA001,0.10927,0.11577,0.067882,0 .075905,0.022466,0.034304,0.00141,0.009,-0.016771,-0.032074,-0.006983,0.002698,-0.013082,-0.011836,0.025108,0.009414,-0.00339,0.000633,0.009427,0.001501,0.012228,0.0068 01,-0.002218,0.000482,0.011376
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN002,0.124067,0.112724,0.047517 ,0.087856,0.005232,0.033746,0.00752,0.003923,-0.021066,-0.032438,-0.002598,-0.00015,-0.003865,-0.019267,0.025787,0.031291,0.004303,0.00114,-0.011313,0.005127,-0.005116,-0.007419,-0.000246,0.006627,-0.01449
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN004,0.121791,0.117801,0.055437 ,0.081719,0.015695,0.026495,0.002585,0.006231,-0.020657,-0.033167,0.004384,-0.004196,-0.008028,-0.025735,0.026194,0.011933,-0.009518,-0.002027,0.004399,-0.006378,0.009234,0.008408,-0.000493,0.003253,-0.010538

Yaroslavl, 2435-2753 BC:


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAL001,0.110408,0.098506,0.048271 ,0.079135,0.007078,0.034582,0.003995,-0.000231,-0.032724,-0.031891,-0.001461,0.006444,-0.012933,-0.024359,0.018458,0.017237,0.021513,0.004181,-0.003771,0.009755,-0.003244,-0.00507,0.007395,0.016026,-0.010179
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU001,0.120652,0.119832,0.04714, 0.07429,0.01508,0.02761,0.00282,-0.004384,-0.022498,-0.014397,-0.000162,0.012739,0.001635,-0.021194,0.026601,0.022673,0.010822,0.005068,-0.001257,0.006503,0.006364,-0.007048,0.002342,0.013616,-0.00958
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU002,0.122929,0.12491,0.04978,0 .078812,0.013849,0.025658,0.00705,0.004615,-0.011044,-0.025331,0.00682,-0.005095,-0.011447,-0.021744,0.034609,0.006364,-0.007953,-0.006081,-0.003771,0.004502,0.011979,0.006554,-0.005423,0.00241,0.000479
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NIK008AB,0.117238,0.116786,0.0463 86,0.060724,0.010771,0.024542,0.002115,-0.004154,-0.00634,-0.025878,-0.005684,0.004046,-0.001189,-0.015414,0.024294,0.00769,-0.00678,0.00038,0.007416,0.006753,-0.001497,0.009398,-0.005423,0.01446,-0.002634
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOD001,0.114961,0.12491,0.046386, 0.04845,0.027082,0.016455,0.005875,0.004846,-0.004704,-0.003827,-0.004222,0.013938,-0.019029,-0.003991,-0.0019,0.003315,0.034421,-0.006334,0.007416,0.016633,-0.007736,0.012489,0.005669,0.010483,-0.003592
RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOR004,0.121791,0.108662,0.051288 ,0.083334,0.00954,0.019243,-0.000705,0.008538,-0.013294,-0.026789,-0.004384,-0.000899,0.004757,-0.011147,0.019272,0.006099,-0.016168,0.00152,0.007919,-0.000875,0.003743,0.000495,0.00037,-0.001084,-0.00479



<colgroup><col style="width:48pt" width="64" span="14"> </colgroup><tbody>
Target
Distance
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
TUR_Barcin_N
WHG
Dinka
MAR_Taforalt
Levant_PPNB
Yoruba
Han
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
ETH_4500BP
Nganassan
Jarawa


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAL001
0.03182021
73.2
18.2
5.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
1.4
1.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN002
0.03182860
73.0
17.0
9.2
0.0
0.8
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:HAN004
0.03414739
68.4
20.2
11.2
0.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU001
0.03494888
66.0
24.4
9.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOR004
0.03420317
65.4
21.4
11.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.2
0.0
0.8
0.0
0.6
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NAU002
0.03394281
65.0
22.2
12.4
0.0
0.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:NIK008AB
0.03100570
64.2
24.4
7.8
0.4
0.0
2.6
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.6
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:BOL003
0.03585899
63.6
20.4
13.8
0.0
2.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:IVA001
0.03574722
63.0
20.2
14.6
2.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


RUS_Fatyanovo_BA:VOD001
0.04531487
52.2
37.6
8.8
1.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.4


Average
0.03488178
65.4
22.6
10.4
0.4
0.3
0.3
0.2
0.2
0.1
0.1
0.1
0.0

</tbody>

What an odd run. Including everything from around the world except for Hunter-Gatherers from the area these are sampled from, Eastern Europe. Not that I think they'll score much of it but still, very odd.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

What an odd run. Including everything from around the world except for Hunter-Gatherers from the area these are sampled from, Eastern Europe. Not that I think they'll score much of it but still, very odd.

I didn't have time to make decent models.

[Leto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TupNpqfAIIQ

Fatyanovo is pronounced fah-TYAH-novo :ranger

[Kaazi]

^^ Yeah, Fatyanovo and Abashevo are ancestral to Indo-Iranians. Fatyanovo is dominated by R1a-Z93 clade, the main lineage (mostly R1a-Z93-L657 clade) of Indo-Aryans that entered South Asia.


Saag et al: Examined males of the Bronze Age Fatyanovo culture belong entirely to R1a, specifically subclade R1a-Z93.[50][51][59]

Fatyanovo was of Corded Ware descent.

Haak et al: R1a has been found in the Corded Ware culture,[56][57] in which it is predominant.[58]


Narasimhan et al: "The evidence that the Steppe_MLBA [Middle to Late Bronze Age] cluster is a plausible source for the Steppe ancestry in South Asia is also supported by Y chromosome evidence, as haplogroup R1a which is of the Z93 subtype common in South Asia today [Underhill et al. (2014), Silva et al. (2017)] was of high frequency in Steppe_MLBA (68%) (16), but rare in Steppe_EMBA [Early to Middle Bronze Age] (absent in our data)."[28]

Underhill et al about R1a-L657 clade in India.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4266736/

Nepali Khas (Bahun-Chhetri) people who are Indo-Aryan speakers are as well higher R1a-Z93 (mostly under the R1a- Y7 & Y6 subclades).

Nepali Khas 23andme kits collected by Nepali user from Anthrogenica
https://i.imgur.com/mRIBXBnr.png


Steppe MLBA- 68% R1a and they probably had C as well.
Nepali Brahmin/Bahun (Khas) - 54% R1a and 9% C (63% Steppic Y DNA).
Nepali Kshatriya/Chhetri (Khas) - 58% R1a (though sampling is too low but it points to the trend.)

Indo-Aryans were Bronze Age Steppe pastoralists with varying levels of BMAC (Oxus river) admix and maybe little to no West Siberian HG admix and Fatyanovo-Balanovo-Abashevo were proto Indo-Iranians.

[Leto]

Amazin' how people from Central Russia would have ended up as far away as Nepal!

[Kaazi]

Amazin' how people from Central Russia would have ended up as far away as Nepal!

Yeah, thinking about it looks like it was difficult/tireful or extremely long/continuous event considering the distance between Russia and South Asia. Those high% of R1a in Nepalese Khas groups (not to be confused with all groups of Nepalis) could be surprising to many but genetic evidences are ground reality.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Indo-European_expansions.jpg/800px-Indo-European_expansions.jpg


Ya, R1a expansion could be as far as Myanmar and Sri Lanka /Maldives. Nepal (brown colour) is just in the vicinity of North India.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Indo-Aryan_language_map.svg

[Arhat]

Amazin' how people from Central Russia would have ended up as far away as Nepal!

It was a long way home for my Fatyanovo-Balanovo line ;) Soon more studies about BA Russians should be published and we can discover more about the ancestors of Indo-Iranians and generally ancient Russians.