Spain panics after Morocco's PM claimed Melilla and Ceuta will soon be Moroccan

[Hamilcar]

After Morocco succeeded to take back his Sahara, its PM said that Ceuta and Melilla are now priorities and moroccan territories and that they will be taken back sooner or later. after these claims, Spain summoned the Moroccan ambassador and of course the conservative sphere reacted :

https://i.imgur.com/Plz9GrO.png

if you speak spanish or arabic : https://twitter.com/vox_es/status/1341079258861596672?s=20

the president of this party Santiago Abascal also reacted saying these cities were spanish even before Morocco existed (:rotfl:) :

https://i.imgur.com/F4m09on.png


A Spanish MEP called on the EU to defend his country "in the face of Moroccan aggression in Melilla".

José Ramón Bauzá, of the Ciudadanos Party, said that the EU must "give Spain the same support that Greece and Cyprus receive in the face of Turkish aggression".

https://i.imgur.com/hMGHVKp.jpg


Of course Spain already lost its fight for the independence of the Sahara :

It should be recalled that Spain had also denounced the "unilateralism" of the United States on the recognition of the Sahara.

The MAE had bet on Biden to revise Trump's decision, it said:
"It will be up to him (Joe Biden) to assess the situation."


let's applaud Morocco's rise :

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2XhfQ8oCkm1Ts4/giphy.gif

[Kamal900]

..Huh? You do realize that Morocco had normalized relations with Israel, right? And it was Trump that made this deal with the Moroccan king in exchange in recognition of Western Sahara as part of Morocco. Melilla and Ceuta are part of the Spanish nation which is true for the Canary islands for centuries in contrast to Western Sahara that has barely any recognition for it's independence. I honestly don't know why you're so proud on the fact that Morocco is a nation that continues to inflect human rights abuses among other things like corruption, no freedom of speech and opinion in the press and etc.

It's the Algerians that had supported the separatist nationalist organization in Western Sahara.

[Hasien]

Most of the Inhabitants of those cities are ethnic Moroccans Spanish citizens ? Yes but still Moroccans I doubt they would want to be part of Morocco since they live better there..

[Hamilcar]

..Huh? You do realize that Morocco had normalized relations with Israel, right? And it was Trump that made this deal with the Moroccan king in exchange in recognition of Western Sahara as part of Morocco. Melilla and Ceuta are part of the Spanish nation which is true for the Canary islands for centuries in contrast to Western Sahara that has barely any recognition for it's independence. I honestly don't know why you're so proud on the fact that Morocco is a nation that continues to inflect human rights abuses among other things like corruption, no freedom of speech and opinion in the press and etc.

It's the Algerians that had supported the separatist nationalist organization in Western Sahara.

well it's a win-win deal, why should morocco care about normalizing his relation with a far country like Israel as long as he can take back his sahara without using any type of military force it's perfect. I do agree that canary islands don't belong to morocco (even though their native inhabitants were berbers) but you can't say such thing for Ceuta and Melilla who have always been properties of the different moroccan dynasties and have always been inhabited by moroccans. It's a real lack of respect to Morocco's integrity and a heritage of european imperialism which Morocco should get rid of ASAP. Imo Morocco should be more aggressive regarding these possessions. No mercy.

[Hamilcar]

Most of the Inhabitants of those cities are ethnic Moroccans Spanish citizens ? Yes but still Moroccans I doubt they would want to be part of Morocco since they live better there..

yes mostly inhabited by ethnic moroccans and who cares about what they prefer, they are spanish citizen after all so they can safely settle in mainland Spain.

[Kamal900]

well it's a win-win deal, why should morocco care about normalizing his relation with a far country like Israel as long as he can take back his sahara without using any type of military force it's perfect. I agree that canary islands don't belong to morocco (even though their native inhabitants were berbers) but you can't say such thing for Ceuta and Melilla who have always been part of the different moroccan dynasties and have always been inhabited by moroccans. It's a real lack of respect to Morocco's integrity and a heritage of european imperialism which Morocco should get rid of ASAP. Imo Morocco should be more aggressive regarding these possessions. No mercy.

A "win-win" deal at the expense of Palestinians that you had been bestirring the Jews here in the past in your other account. Man, happycow was right all along. Yes, it's perfect for Morocco to be under the heels of the Zionist west. Legally, both of these cities are internationally recognized as part of the Spanish nation, not Morocco. Are you Belgian or Moroccan? Because your loyalty here needs to be questioned. You are basically living in "imperial" European lands, but I guess that it doesn't matter to you, huh?

[Hasien]

yes mostly inhabited by ethnic moroccans and who cares about what they prefer, they are spanish citizen after all so they can safely settle in mainland Spain.

Please don't get angry at me bro just said my opinion

[Hamilcar]

A "win-win" deal at the expense of Palestinians that you had been bestirring the Jews here in the past in your other account. Man, happycow was right all along. Yes, it's perfect for Morocco to be under the heels of the Zionist west. Legally, both of these cities are internationally recognized as part of the Spanish nation, not Morocco. Are you Belgian or Moroccan? Because your loyalty here needs to be questioned. You are basically living in "imperial" European lands, but I guess that it doesn't matter to you, huh?

I can see that you haven't really paid attention to what's going on because the King Mohammed VI called Mahmoud Abbas and insisted on the fact that normalizing with the Hebrew state is not synonymous with ending support for Palestine. Morocco still supports a two-state solution. So there is no zionist support, Morocco has always been on the western side historically nothing changes regarding this. They will soon be recognized internationally as part of the Moroccan nation like the Sahara and they will lose their influence on this strait. Period.

You can be a proud belgo-moroccan I don't see what's contradictory here.

[Hamilcar]

Please don't get angry at me bro just said my opinion

haha I'm not angry at you it's just that this statement is often brought in this kind of discussion. I still love you ;)

[Kamal900]

I can see that you haven't really paid attention to what's going on because the King Mohammed VI called Mahmoud Abbas and insisted on the fact that normalizing with the Hebrew state is not synonymous with ending support for Palestine. Morocco still supports a two-state solution. So there is no zionist support, Morocco has always been on the western side historically nothing changes regarding this. They will soon be recognized internationally as part of the morocco nation like the Sahara and they will lose their influence on this strait. Period.

You can be a proud belgo-moroccan I don't see what's contradictory here.

Riiiiiiight. Just recently, documents from the 60's that had been declassified from Israel had shown the great relations between Morocco and Israel which even Morocco had given very sensitive intel to Israel that was instrumental in the war against Egypt and others. I do love the PR optics from the likes of Abbas and the king though. happycow would be laughing reading this since what he said about you and others here was 100% true which you denied it. That's what people like to call "dual loyalty", and you can't serve two masters at once without taking one master over the other. If you dislike Europeans that much then you're more than welcome to go back to Morocco. Belgians are Europeans, and you'd think that they would side with the Moroccans over the Spaniards here?

[Hamilcar]

Riiiiiiight. Just recently, documents from the 60's that had been declassified from Israel had shown the great relations between Morocco and Israel which even Morocco had given very sensitive intel to Israel that was instrumental in the war against Egypt and others. I do love the PR optics from the likes of Abbas and the king though. happycow would be laughing reading this since what he said about you and others here was 100% true which you denied it. That's what people like to call "dual loyalty", and you can't serve two masters at once without taking one master over the other. If you dislike Europeans that much then you're more than welcome to go back to Morocco. Belgians are Europeans, and you'd think that they would side with the Moroccans over the Spaniards here?

honestly you're extremely sensitive when it comes to these topics you don't think rationally ...and kind of ironic blaming me for not living in my country while you live in the UAE who also normalized their relations with Israel and even celebrated hanoukka with them lmao : https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2020/12/11/watch-hanukkah-celebrated-in-public-in-dubai-united-arab-emirates-for-the-first-time-trump-peace-deal/
https://gulfnews.com/going-out/look-hanukkah-celebrations-at-dubais-burj-khalifa-1.1607844355662


https://media.giphy.com/media/9MJ6xrgVR9aEwF8zCJ/giphy.gif


at least Morocco take the trouble to call the palestinian government and still insist on its support for Palestine.

Moreover I don't know for you but I still have some kind of self respect and dignity regarding my background and I will not get rid of it on the grounds that "you can't serve two masters" lol I will not take sides, I deeply admired both and always will.

[Kamal900]

honestly you're extremely sensitive when it comes to these topics you don't think rationally ...and kind of ironic blaming me for not living in my country while you live in the UAE who also normalized their relations with Israel and even celebrated hanoukka with them lmao : https://www.breitbart.com/middle-east/2020/12/11/watch-hanukkah-celebrated-in-public-in-dubai-united-arab-emirates-for-the-first-time-trump-peace-deal/
https://gulfnews.com/going-out/look-hanukkah-celebrations-at-dubais-burj-khalifa-1.1607844355662


https://media.giphy.com/media/9MJ6xrgVR9aEwF8zCJ/giphy.gif


at least Morocco take the trouble to call the palestinian government and still insisti on its support for Palestine.

Moreover I don't know for you but I still have some kind of self respect and dignity regarding my background and I will not get rid of it on the grounds that "you can't serve two masters" lol I will not take sides, I deeply admired both and always will.

Because locals never were supportive of us ever nor do I know any locals who are close friends of mine either. Thus, the masks are pretty much off basically, and that makes you..well, let's say hypocrite is a right word in this situation since happycow once told you the absolute fakeness of "support" for Palestinians from the MENA world where countries like Morocco or here pretending to care for the sake for PR. While Latin America hosts hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all given equal rights and citizenship, not a single Arab country did that besides Jordan. Hell, even Israel had given them these things too as well.

I'm sensitive to people who speak both sides of their cheeks, and the way you called "European imperialism" here is insinuating your dislike towards European as a whole. I'm not an Emirati citizen, and only locals are allowed to be as such hence this nation it's not my home whatsoever. Belgium gives foreigners citizenship and equal rights though, thus as return you should integrate and putting your loyalty to the Belgium flag, not the Moroccan one. Again, you can't be loyal to both countries the same way that you can love 2 or more wives equally hence why Polygamy is wrong.

[Hamilcar]

Because locals never were supportive of us ever nor do I know any locals who are close friends of mine either. Thus, the masks are pretty much off basically, and that makes you..well, let's say hypocrite is a right word in this situation since happycow once told you the absolute fakeness of "support" for Palestinians from the MENA world where countries like Morocco or here pretending to care for the sake for PR. While Latin America hosts hundreds of thousands of Palestinians all given equal rights and citizenship, not a single Arab country did that besides Jordan. Hell, even Israel had given them these things too as well.

I'm sensitive to people who speak both sides of their cheeks, and the way you called "European imperialism" here is insinuating your dislike towards European as a whole. I'm not an Emirati citizen, and only locals are allowed to be as such hence this nation it's not my home whatsoever. Belgium gives foreigners citizenship and equal rights though, thus as return you should integrate and putting your loyalty to the Belgium flag, not the Moroccan one. Again, you can't be loyal to both countries the same way that you can love 2 or more wives equally hence why Polygamy is wrong.

You're dishonest by generalizing like that as if the 32 millions of moroccans took that decision no it's only the King Sir and Algeria is btw not concerned by this. Stop whining and constantly playing the victim at least we're probably the only people in the arab region who really support you while you're surrounded by arab hypocrites who treat you like second-class citizens. Historically I challenge you to find any evidence of Morocco refusing citizenship to any palestinian...not our faults if palestinians choosed the closest arab country to them (the emigration to latin america is even older).

And you're not in a position to give me moralistic lessons while yourself asked me to stop supporting Palestine because it was "cringe" ....yes that's your level of dignity no wonder why palestine struggles to resist Israel with such people who easily give up and sell their ass but I know that not all palestinians are like this I support the ones who still fight out there. You have practically no dignity that's why you can't really understand my admiration and respect for my ancestors and their country. I don't need to sell me in order to be accepted I respect both countries and that's it I'm already well integrated.

[Fraisod]

This is another of Trump's shit-stirring, parting gifts to the world.
The deal with with the King of Morocco (in exchange for his normalizing relations with Israel) was US support for Morocco's claims over the Western Sahara.
Since Ceuta & Melilla were, in their origin centuries ago, ancestral "WS" lands, Morocco can now make troublesome claims against Spain, and hence, trouble for the EU more broadly (and, potentially, diplomatic and military issues for Biden to unravel too). Over the last few years, Morocco already provided an important proportion of ISIS fighters in Syria, etc.

[Hamilcar]

This is another of Trump's shit-stirring, parting gifts to the world.
The deal with with the King of Morocco (in exchange for his normalizing relations with Israel) was US support for Morocco's claims over the Western Sahara.
Since Ceuta & Melilla were, in their origin centuries ago, ancestral "WS" lands, Morocco can now make troublesome claims against Spain, and hence, trouble for the EU more broadly (and, potentially, diplomatic and military issues for Biden to unravel too). Over the last few years, Morocco already provided an important proportion of ISIS fighters in Syria, etc.

it's not about trouble or gifts it's all based on legitimate claims and Morocco try to resolve these problems diplomatically which is totally legitimate and natural. And I don't understand why you're talking about ISIS fighters while morocco is one of the safest country in the region when it comes to terrorism (more so than Spain) and the moroccan intelligence helped many european countries in the fight against these terrorists :

https://middle-east-online.com/en/spain-collaborates-morocco-terror-suspects-arrest
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/30/france-and-morocco-announce-counter-terrorism-cooperation/
https://www.africanews.com/2016/03/01/terrorism-belgium-seeks-collaboration-with-morocco/

[Fraisod]

1. Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish territory -- land taken during a defensive incursion centuries ago,
culturally & economically in the Spanish sphere for centuries.
2. IF Spain ever considered at some point that the land may be relinquished, there is the complex question of who it may belong to, in some moral sense.
This is complex because it is difficult to see that it belongs to any country more than to Spain. But, hypothetically speaking, the Western Sahara people.
3. Morocco assumes control of W.S. -- Well, since W.S. claims to their own land are being bulldozed over, good luck getting Spain to "return" those territories to the invading nation.
4. What the people there think would always be considered. Spain would be wary of betraying the residents of Ceuta and Melilla as cavalierly as the U.K. betrayed the people of Hong Kong. But, even if there were some push from within those territories, it would still remain a matter for all Spaniards to consider.

[Kamal900]

You're dishonest by generalizing like that as if the 32 millions of moroccans took that decision no it's only the King Sir and Algeria is btw not concerned by this. Stop whining and constantly playing the victim at least we're probably the only people in the arab region who really support you while you're surrounded by arab hypocrites who treat you like second-class citizens. Historically I challenge you to find any evidence of Morocco refusing citizenship to any palestinian...not our faults if palestinians choosed the closest arab country to them (the emigration to latin america is even older).

And you're not in a position to give me moralistic lessons while yourself asked me to stop supporting Palestine because it was "cringe" ....yes that's your level of dignity no wonder why palestine struggles to resist Israel with such people who easily give up and sell their ass but I know that not all palestinians are like this I support the ones who still fight out there. You have practically no dignity that's why you can't really understand my admiration and respect for my ancestors and their country. I don't need to sell me in order to be accepted I respect both countries and that's it I'm already well integrated.

Yes, I don't have any care for what's happening in that part of the world since I wasn't born there nor do I have any relatives there besides in Israel who were converted to Judaism and etc, but I do absolutely loathe hypocrites who love to speak with both sides of their cheeks, and one can look at your fellow Moroccans on twitter on that. As happycow had mentioned in the past on you and others, you only "pretend" to care whenever it's convenient for you, and as soon as the opportunity arise in making with the deal with the Zionists like Trump and others, well, one can see the true hypocrisy in the MENA world, not just in the Arab world. So, please. Stop pretending already. happycow already told you to stop doing that as well.

[Gredos]

I would like Spain to get rid of this problem, and let Morocco incorporate those territories.

Although before leaving the cities, people would have to be transferred to the peninsula, and then demolished all the houses, destroyed the port, road, infrastructure, everything. So that a landfill is the only thing that Morocco can invade.

[The Lawspeaker]

I would like Spain to get rid of this problem, and let Morocco incorporate those territories.

Although before leaving the cities, people would have to be transferred to the peninsula, and then demolished all the houses, destroyed the port, road, infrastructure, everything. So that a landfill is the only thing that Morocco can invade.

Transfer only the Spanish. In exchange, Europe should show their teeth by deporting every single Moroccan and stopping the transfer of pensions or benefits. Moroccans can't lose their Moroccan citizenship so they can easily be stripped of their European citizenship and deported as hostile aliens without them becoming stateless.

[Kamal900]

Transfer only the Spanish. In exchange, Europe should show their teeth by deporting every single Moroccan and stopping the transfer of pensions or benefits. Moroccans can't lose their Moroccan citizenship so they can easily be stripped off their European citizenship and deported as hostile aliens without them becoming stateless.

A good deal I might add. Let's see if Moroccans are willing to live in their "beautiful" country that is full of corruption, crime and human rights abuses. The king there is like the dictator of North Korea where you can't say a word that he and his goons dislike while Belgium is a nation that is extremely civilized and developed, esp in the North or Flanders. It's time for the Faranji(Franks in Arabic) of the Low Countries to flex their muscles a bit here, you know?

[The Lawspeaker]

A good deal I might add. Let's see if Moroccans are willing to live in their "beautiful" country that is full of corruption, crime and human rights abuses. The king there is like the dictator of North Korea where you can't say a word that he and his goons dislike while Belgium is a nation that is extremely civilized and developed, esp in the North or Flanders. It's time for the Faranji(Franks in Arabic) of the Low Countries to flex their muscles a bit here, you know?
If we really want to, we can totally destroy them without firing a single shot. Besides: the loss of Ceuta and Melilla also closes a dangerous hole in the border.

[Kamal900]

If we really want to, we can totally destroy them without firing a single shot. Besides: the loss of Ceuta and Melilla also closes a dangerous hole in the border.

Yeah. As Gredos have noted that these cities' infrastructures and buildings need to be destroyed before giving them to Morocco in exchange in taking away their citizenship and purging the Moroccans back to their homeland. Also, Europeans should never go there even for a small visit or else they would risk in getting killed like what happened to the two Swedish tourists there.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah. As Gredos have noted that these cities' infrastructures and buildings need to be destroyed before giving them to Morocco in exchange in taking away their citizenship and purging the Moroccans back to their homeland. Also, Europeans should never go there even for a small visit or else they would risk in getting killed like what happened to the two Swedish tourists there.
Exactly. It would create a humanitarian crisis in Morocco since they wouldn't be able to handle the influx.

[Autrigón]

I wouldn't say "panic" is the most appropriate word in this case.

It would be more appropriate to say "The moroccan parrots are repeating the same again".

Ceuta and Melilla have never belonged to Morocco, I think is not so difficult to understand.

What's next, the Canary Islands? :rolleyes:

[Longbowman]

well it's a win-win deal, why should morocco care about normalizing his relation with a far country like Israel as long as he can take back his sahara without using any type of military force it's perfect. I do agree that canary islands don't belong to morocco (even though their native inhabitants were berbers) but you can't say such thing for Ceuta and Melilla who have always been properties of the different moroccan dynasties and have always been inhabited by moroccans. It's a real lack of respect to Morocco's integrity and a heritage of european imperialism which Morocco should get rid of ASAP. Imo Morocco should be more aggressive regarding these possessions. No mercy.

'I think Morocco should invade NATO, no mercy.'

????

[Longbowman]

Anyway obviously I support Spanish sovereignty over las plazas de soberania, but I do find it amusing to see the Spanish squawking over Moroccan claims after so many decades of incessant Spanish demands for the return of Gibraltar, which has been British for longer than it was ever Spanish.

[The Lawspeaker]

'I think Morocco should invade NATO, no mercy.'

????
A.k.a national suicide.

[Fraisod]

Anyway obviously I support Spanish sovereignty over las plazas de soberania, but I do find it amusing to see the Spanish squawking over Moroccan claims after so many decades of incessant Spanish demands for the return of Gibraltar, which has been British for longer than it was ever Spanish.

Well, perhaps, Spain will give up Ceuta & Melilla in exchange for Gibraltar -- now, all we have to do is find what the King of Morocco can offer Britain to swing the deal. :)

[Longbowman]

Well, perhaps, Spain will give up Ceuta & Melilla in exchange for Gibraltar -- now, all we have to do is find what the King of Morocco can offer Britain to swing the deal. :)

We'll trade for Western Sahara.

[mitalit]

In fact I love this situation, Spain needs a clear enemy. I only hope that Morocco acts and not only speaks

[The Lawspeaker]

Actually. If Britain wants a clean Brexit without the constant border nightmare of Gibraltar, they might just as well give or sell it to Spain. It would be one less border to worry about. It's not like they are so effective at the borders closer to home... Dover, Southampton, Felixstowe... Never mind this whole hard border in Ireland that had to be moved to the Irish Sea debacle...

[mitalit]

Actually. If Britain wants a clean Brexit without the constant border nightmare of Gibraltar, they might just as well give or sell it to Spain. It would be one less border to worry about. It's not like they are so effective at the borders closer to home... Dover, Southampton, Felixstowe...
Gibraltarians don't want to be Spanish and it is understandable, if they wanted to be Spanish they would already be. With Great Britain they are a kind of tax haven and they are doing well.
In any case, the borders imposed in the Peace of Utrecht should be respected.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Xibraltarplano-es.jpg/440px-Xibraltarplano-es.jpg

[mitalit]

doble

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

I would sell both cities to Morocco. It's not Spanish land.

You can't cry about Gibraltar and from the other side of your mouth talk about Ceuta and Melilla being part of Spain.

[gixajo]

En fin...que coñazo siempre con lo mismo.

[Hamilcar]

'I think Morocco should invade NATO, no mercy.'

????

I wasn't necessarily talking about military mesures I'm aware of NATO

[Gredos]

I would sell both cities to Morocco. It's not Spanish land.

You can't cry about Gibraltar and from the other side of your mouth talk about Ceuta and Melilla being part of Spain.

Are you stupid? No constitution in the world would allow you to sell cities with people to another country. Not even expel them to create their own state, which is what would be desirable.

In the past these enclaves were strategic for resupply and maritime surveillance, now they are a problem. Luckily all America became independent.

[Hamilcar]

3. Morocco assumes control of W.S. -- Well, since W.S. claims to their own land are being bulldozed over, good luck getting Spain to "return" those territories to the invading nation.


That's simply not true, only the polisario front (which is financed and supported by algeria) claim that it's being "bulldozed" but in fact you can travel there by yourself and ask sahraouis what they think (economically it's also one of the wealthiest region of morocco thanks to the government's reforms)

Also historically this border between "western sahara" and Morocco never existed before, it's a direct heritage of european imperialism created in order to separate the spanish protectorate from the french one. I don't see why one of the oldest monarchy in the world should bend the knee in front of a colonial heritage. Also if you can provide any piece of evidence of a "western sahara" nation before the spanish protectorate feel free to post it.

[Hamilcar]

I would like Spain to get rid of this problem, and let Morocco incorporate those territories.

Although before leaving the cities, people would have to be transferred to the peninsula, and then demolished all the houses, destroyed the port, road, infrastructure, everything. So that a landfill is the only thing that Morocco can invade.

I totally agree we don't need any spanish influence on our territory. If it was up to me, I would have destroyed all the spanish heritage in these cities and impose our beautiful and more advanced architecture.

[Hamilcar]

If we really want to, we can totally destroy them without firing a single shot. Besides: the loss of Ceuta and Melilla also closes a dangerous hole in the border.

you can't even deal with moroccan delinquents on your territory and you think you can destroy Morocco ? Stop embarassing yourself subhuman

[The Lawspeaker]

you can't even deal with moroccan delinquents on your territory and you think you can destroy Morocco ? Stop embarassing yourself subhuman

All one needs to do is to strip them off their Dutch citizenship and they can be deported.

[Hamilcar]

All one needs to do is to strip them off their Dutch citizenship and they can be deported.

you won't even succeed to deport them, if moroccans want they can invade your country in less than 48h. Most dutch men are effeminated they have lost all their dignity and are deeply secularized they can't compete with Moroccans who are more traditional and overall more manly

[The Lawspeaker]

you won't even succeed to deport them, if moroccans want they can invade your country in less than 48h. Most dutch men are effeminated they have lost all their dignity and are deeply secularized they can't compete with Moroccans who are more traditional and overall more manly
Most Moroccan men are lay-abouts who wouldn't be able to organise an orgy in a whorehouse. A truly lesser race from which you are a prime example.

[Hamilcar]

Most Moroccan men are lay-abouts who wouldn't be able to organise an orgy in a whorehouse. A truly lesser race from which you are a prime example.

Of course they wouldn't be able to organise such thing that's more of a dutch tradition.

Yeah a "truly lesser race" while you look down everytime you meet one of them and you had to put your dick inside a thailandese whore after you failed in the netherlands :thumb001: It's not a surprise if dutch women prefer moroccan men it's natural selection Sir

[The Lawspeaker]

Of course they wouldn't be able to organise such thing that's more of a dutch tradition.

Yeah a "truly lesser race" while you look down everytime you meet one of them and you had to put your dick inside a thailandese whore after you failed in the netherlands :thumb001: It's not a surprise if dutch women prefer moroccan men it's natural selection Sir

You're such a lesser race that they wouldn't have your shitty ancestors in the mines because that was honourable work. They instead put them behind the assembly line and they were so bad in this menial tasks that they were sacked and the factory moved abroad.

[Hamilcar]

The moroccan ambassador gave her answer :

"Rabat does not recognize Spanish sovereignty over Ceuta and Melilla"

"Morocco still considers the two cities to be occupied" affirms Karima Benyaich, Moroccan ambassador to Spain following her summons by the Spanish Minister of Foreign Affairs

[The Lawspeaker]

I think Morocco should walk the walk and attack Spain. Not only would the Spanish Navy blow them clean out of the water, Spain would also call in NATO article 5.

[Hamilcar]

You're such a lesser race that they wouldn't have your shitty ancestors in the mines because that was honourable work. They instead put them behind the assembly line and they were so bad in this menial tasks that they were sacked and the factory moved abroad.


haha yes you're known for being a reliable source of information :

https://i.imgur.com/OZz7Ibj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5wkj2yX.jpg


Who are you trying to fool here ? While my own grandfather worked there. That's an insult to people who dedicated their lives to maintain your economy meanwhile you're a real scum that spent all his day behind his screen playing the keyboard warrior.


Pathetic.

[The Lawspeaker]

haha yes you're known for being a reliable source of information :

https://i.imgur.com/OZz7Ibj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5wkj2yX.jpg


Who are you trying to fool here ? While my own grandfather worked there. That's an insult to people who dedicated their lives to maintain your economy meanwhile you're a real scum that spent all his day behind his screen playing the keyboard warrior.


Pathetic.

Most miners were either local or Italian in Belgium. Dutch in the Netherlands but also West German and Belgian. Andthey only came after '63 after Reconstruction had been completed. The Morrocans had no part whatsoever in the post-war reconstruction period.

[Hamilcar]

I think Morocco should walk the walk and attack Spain. Not only would the Spanish Navy blow them clean out of the water, Spain would also call in NATO article 5.


No Morocco is smarter and knows what it's doing :


"No se puede permitir que Marruecos intente paralizar a toda una ciudad, colapsarla cada vez que se le antoje y que además nos esté metiendo todos los días por esta frontera toda su morralla, todos esos problemas que no pueden o no quieren solventar."

The authorities in Ceuta accuse Morocco of wanting to stifle the city's trade, as evidenced by the latest media outlet.
According to the local media, "La Verdad de Ceuta", Morocco is accused of wanting to collapse the city. His weapon? Economic development, notably with Tanger Med and Nador West Med.

A few days ago, the presidents of Ceuta and Melilia recognized the difficulties facing the two enclaves.
In a context, where the Canary Islands have reported the same situation with the Moroccan decision to establish its EEZ.
The new head of Spanish diplomacy, Arancha Gonzalez Laya, is expected in Morocco today.

https://media.giphy.com/media/wrBURfbZmqqXu/giphy.gif

[Hamilcar]

Most miners were either local or Italian in Belgium. Dutch in the Netherlands but also West German and Belgian. Andthey only came after '63 after Reconstruction had been completed. The Morrocans had no part whatsoever in the post-war reconstruction period.

sure sure as if the mines were the only possibilites for them ...you can lie all you want it doesn't change the fact that these people worked in those mines. Respect to them ...now look at this dutch bum spitting on them while he's a weirdo locked in his room.

[The Lawspeaker]

No Morocco is smarter and knows what it's doing :


"No se puede permitir que Marruecos intente paralizar a toda una ciudad, colapsarla cada vez que se le antoje y que además nos esté metiendo todos los días por esta frontera toda su morralla, todos esos problemas que no pueden o no quieren solventar."

The authorities in Ceuta accuse Morocco of wanting to stifle the city's trade, as evidenced by the latest media outlet.
According to the local media, "La Verdad de Ceuta", Morocco is accused of wanting to collapse the city. His weapon? Economic development, notably with Tanger Med and Nador West Med.

A few days ago, the presidents of Ceuta and Melilia recognized the difficulties facing the two enclaves.
In a context, where the Canary Islands have reported the same situation with the Moroccan decision to establish its EEZ.
The new head of Spanish diplomacy, Arancha Gonzalez Laya, is expected in Morocco today.

https://media.giphy.com/media/wrBURfbZmqqXu/giphy.gif

Except that will be all talk as there will be no development in Morocco as nobody wants to invest there.

[The Lawspeaker]

sure sure as if the mines were the only possibilites for them ...you can lie all you want it doesn't change the fact that these people worked in those mines. Respect to them ...now look at this dutch bum spitting on them while he's a weirdo locked in his room.

Goes to say that they were the lowest of the low that after 40 years in Western Europe only manage to dominate the crime statistics.

[Hamilcar]

Except that will be all talk as there will be no development in Morocco as nobody wants to invest there.


Well it seems you're again wrong :


https://i.imgur.com/2ihWKHI.png

https://i.imgur.com/N2BcJR3.png

[Aldaris]

I totally agree we don't need any spanish influence on our territory. If it was up to me, I would have destroyed all the spanish heritage in these cities and impose our beautiful and more advanced architecture.

It is our territory now. And it's us who built the cities.

Now, in what way is this:

http://postimg.cz/images/kXtFe.jpg

more advanced than this:

http://postimg.cz/images/kXmc9.jpg

http://postimg.cz/images/kX9eo.jpg

Ceuta, Reino de España.

[Hamilcar]

Goes to say that they were the lowest of the low that after 40 years in Western Europe only manage to dominate the crime statistics.


Kind of ironic when the speaker of the House of Representatives of your country is Moroccan :

https://i.imgur.com/nqbfQIK.jpg


Also kind of ironic that the mayor of the 2nd biggest city of your country is also Moroccan :

https://i.imgur.com/XgA1Erp.jpg


:thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

Well it seems you're again wrong :


https://i.imgur.com/2ihWKHI.png

https://i.imgur.com/N2BcJR3.png

Oh look: Chinese money that you can't pay back

[The Lawspeaker]

Kind of ironic when the speaker of the House of Representatives of your country is Moroccan :

https://i.imgur.com/nqbfQIK.jpg


Also kind of ironic that the mayor of the 2nd biggest city of your country is also Moroccan :

https://i.imgur.com/XgA1Erp.jpg


:thumb001:

And neither of them was elected but appointed as part of diversifying politics by the ruling parties at the time. But you forget to mention that.

[Hamilcar]

It is our territory now. And it's us who built the cities.

Now, in what way is this:

http://postimg.cz/images/kXtFe.jpg

more advanced than this:

http://postimg.cz/images/kXmc9.jpg

http://postimg.cz/images/kXhVF.jpg

Ceuta, Reino de España.


Thanks for proving my point, the only beautiful building of ceuta you could find has in fact a Neo-Mudéjar architecture ;)

[Hamilcar]

Oh look: Chinese money that you can't pay back


Well I thought nobody wanted to invest there :rolleyes: And no most investors are not chinese :

https://i.imgur.com/9vaEMvD.png

:)

[Hamilcar]

And neither of them was elected but appointed as part of diversifying politics by the ruling parties at the time. But you forget to mention that.

https://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy-downsized-large.gif


look at that pathetic subhuman exposing his dishonesty he now implies that The Netherlands are not a democratic state ...go away I totally humiliated you.

[Kamal900]

Oh look: Chinese money that you can't pay back

The Chinese are doing this to many African nations, and yes, they're not doing it because they "like" the natives in said countries either. The US and Israel are going to "invest" in Morocco with Trump showering them with over 1 billion dollars wroth of investment in the military of Morocco. Trump also is giving Sudan over 400 million dollars in exchange in normalizing with Israel. In fact, Trump even admitted that the ONLY reason why the US is in the middle east is for Israel back in September btw in a rally with his supporters. Guess who's paying for these "economic packages" to these countries btw? why the average American tax payer of course as they had been doing for many years now.

[The Lawspeaker]

https://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy-downsized-large.gif


look at that pathetic subhuman exposing his dishonesty he now implies that The Netherlands are not a democratic state ...

Guess what: Executives aren't elected here and neither are they in Belgium. Burgomasters are selected by the Ministry of Domestic Affairs on behalf of the Crown as based on a model where the big cities are divided by the main parties. That's something even civics A could teach you here. And speakers are selected in much the same way: the PvdA isn't in the coalition so they "elected" since she would not be so quick to back the ruling coalition.


In the Netherlands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands) and Belgium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium), the mayor (Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language): burgemeester or French (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language): bourgmestre) is an appointed government position, whose main responsibility is chairing the executive and legislative councils of a municipality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_politics_in_the_Netherlands).

In the Netherlands, mayors chair both the council of mayor and aldermen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_mayor_and_aldermen) and the municipal council (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_council_(Netherlands)). They are members of the council of mayor and aldermen (Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language): college van burgemeester en wethouders, B&W) and have their own portfolios, always including safety and public order. They also have a representative role for the municipal government, both to its civilians and to other authorities on the local, regional and national level.

A large majority of mayors are members of a political party. This can be the majority party in the municipal council, but there are many exceptions on this. However, the mayors are expected to exercise their office in a non-partisan way.
The mayor is appointed by the national government (the Crown) for a renewable six-year term. In the past, mayors for important cities were often chosen after negotiations (behind the screens) between the national parties. This appointment procedure has been criticised because it was seen by some as undemocratic. Especially the party D66 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrats_66) had a direct election of the mayor as one of the main objectives in its platform. In the early 2000s, proposals for change were discussed in the national parliament. However, opponents of the status quo were divided between two alternatives: direct election of the mayor by the people or appointment by the municipal council. A constitutional change to direct election gained a majority in both chambers but failed to pass the final vote in the Senate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_of_the_Netherlands) in March 2005.
In the meantime, although the law remained the same, the practice changed. Nowadays, when a vacancy occurs, a special committee of the municipal council interviews (behind closed doors) candidates, which are pre-selected by the provincial governor (the King's Commissioner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Commissioner)). After advice by the committee, the council express its preferences to the Minister of the Interior (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_the_Interior_and_Kingdom_Relations), who almost always follows this recommendation.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgomaster

[Kamal900]

https://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy-downsized-large.gif


look at that pathetic subhuman exposing his dishonesty he now implies that The Netherlands are not a democratic state ...go away I totally humiliated you.

He was talking about the fact that these people are implanted by their respective parties to diversify in the government places which the average Dutch never got voted in the first place for such things to happen which is true when it came to immigration policies and so on in pretty much every western countries in the world that opened it's borders be it the US, Australia, Netherlands and etc.

[Aldaris]

Thanks for proving my point, the only beautiful building of ceuta you could find has in fact a Neo-Mudéjar architecture ;)

Proving your point my ass, pal. That kind of architecture is Spanish. Guess who were the pioneers of it - Emilio Rodríguez Ayuso and Antoni Gaudí. If you wanna cut down on the Spanish influence, you might aswell gonna demolish it and turn that into a mud huts colony.

[The Lawspeaker]

He was talking about the fact that these people are implanted by their respective parties to diversify in the government places which the average Dutch never got voted in the first place for such things to happen which is true when it came to immigration policies and so on in pretty much every western countries in the world that opened it's borders be it the US, Australia, Netherlands and etc.

They are appointed and both belong to the same party which is infamous for diversity hiring here.

[Kamal900]

Well I thought nobody wanted to invest there :rolleyes: And no most investors are not chinese :

https://i.imgur.com/9vaEMvD.png

:)

The shear irony here is stunning. If Spain is among the biggest investors in Morocco, then this whole fiasco would lead them to consider in pulling their investments out of Morocco. As for UAE, well, I wouldn't be surprised if they too had a major influence in leading Morocco into normalizing with Israel. Same with France under Macron that orders the police in using brute force against the yellow vest protesters that had been going on for many weeks now. This is 1984 where liars and hypocrites are showered with praise while people who speak the truth are ridiculed in all walks of life. Peace is war, freedom is slavery and etc. This is also found in Islamic scriptures of such future btw.

[The Lawspeaker]

Needless to say, this baantjescarroussel (lit. job carroussel) where party yes-men are promoted from one position the next and where the main party divided the spoils among themselves is just sbout our political illness and the fact that our hypocritical Moroccan plays stupid here, shows that he never integrated as Belgium suffers from the same illness and on an even bigger scale then here, where one party has controlled much of Wallonia (including most mayoral positions) for the last 70+ years.

This unique form of corruption has been around since, at least, the 17th century and probably even longer.Back then it was done through familial ties (rich families intermarried) or so-called correspondence, where a small clique took hold of the city government, the only real innovation lies in the formation of political parties during the 19th century.

[Kamal900]

Needless to say, this baantjescarroussel (lit. job carroussel) where party yes-men are promoted from ine position the next and where the main party dividevthe spoils among themselves is just sbout our political illness and the fact that our hypocritical Moroccan plays stupid here, shows that he never integrated as Belgium suffers from the same illness and on an even bigger scale then here, where one party has controlled much of Wallonia (including most mayoral positions) for the last 70+ years.

"Democracy" in the western world is simply an Orwellian double speak for neoliberal totalitarianism that is a bit more softer than China's government. It's not an exaggeration to say that the native White/European peoples of said countries are treated as 2nd class citizens in their own native homelands.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Bxa0nO3nEDPF/

[The Lawspeaker]

"Democracy" in the western world is simply an Orwellian double speak for neoliberal totalitarianism that is a bit more softer than China's government. It's not an exaggeration to say that the native White/European peoples of said countries are treated as 2nd class citizens in their own native homelands.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/Bxa0nO3nEDPF/

Absolutely. And the idea of elections are shallow as well as they work with closed lists and there is no public control over who appears on the list. And let's not even go into the voting system or the Byzantine corruption that is the formation of a new government.

[Hialt]

I wonder why Spain didn't overtake Morrocco when Spain was most powerful, back in its "heyday."

[Kamal900]

I wonder why Spain didn't overtake Morrocco when Spain was most powerful, back in its "heyday."

Simply because they were not interested in Morocco because there wasn't much value in doing so which contrasts in Latin America. Same with Portugal too. Colonial Europeans like the Spaniards, Dutch and so on would colonize in lands that there's great opportunity for them to be in, you know? The Dutch for example are pretty famous for their agricultural and animal husbandry, thus they saw South Africa and Rhodesia aka Zimbabwe as great opportunity for farming as well as mining which made both nations the most developed in all of Africa that were on par with the most developed nations at the time. My grandfather knew a couple of Dutch and German immigrants in Palestine when he was young(he was a farmer), and it was the Dutch who first brought the most iconic animal that symbolizes the Netherlands; the Frisian cattle which remains today as the most widely used breed for milk production.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Holstein_Friesian_UK_Yorkshire_July_2011.jpg

My dad told me that owning these cows back in the day symbolizes wealth of the farmer in the Levant.

[Hamilcar]

Guess what: Executives aren't elected here and neither are they in Belgium. Burgomasters are selected by the Ministry of Domestic Affairs on behalf of the Crown as based on a model where the big cities are divided by the main parties. That's something even civics A could teach you here. And speakers are selected in much the same way: the PvdA isn't in the coalition so they "elected" since she would not be so quick to back the ruling coalition.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgomaster

That's false executives can be elected in Belgium. Moreover your initial point was that none could reached such position even by bringing the "diversity" excuse these people still have a more impressive career than the average dutch (just check their bio) and it's been years that they kept their position which confirms their skills.

But that was just two examples I can post other examples :

The leader of one of your party :

https://i.imgur.com/w3mqXpk.jpg


other examples that you might probably know :

https://i.imgur.com/DleVsHm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0IcKOEP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w33pZHe.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

That's false executives can be elected in Belgium. Moreover your initial point was that none could reached such position even by bringing the "diversity" excuse these people still have a more impressive career than the average dutch (just check their bio) and it's been years that they kept their position which confirms their skills.

But that was just two examples I can post other examples :

The leader of one of your party :

https://i.imgur.com/w3mqXpk.jpg


other examples that you might probably know :

https://i.imgur.com/DleVsHm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0IcKOEP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w33pZHe.jpg

You're lying to us here as, just like in the Netherlands, all executive functions are appointed positions. Mayors, aldermen, provincial governors, ministers of government or the Prime Ministers. Not one of them is elected and all are appointed using the spoils system. The images you shown all come from the same left-wing parties that tried to attract migrant votes because they lost the Dutch vote.

The first party, Denk, is so infamous that even the Left placed them under a permanent cordon sanitaire.

[Hamilcar]

Proving your point my ass, pal. That kind of architecture is Spanish. Guess who were the pioneers of it - Emilio Rodríguez Ayuso and Antoni Gaudí. If you wanna cut down on the Spanish influence, you might aswell gonna demolish it and turn that into a mud huts colony.

It's not really spanish in its essence because it appeared with the orientalist movement who tried to revive the mudéjar architecture (it's moorish in its essence) but it doesn't matter I would still have bombard that building

Time for our advanced and refined art to be imposed there

https://i.imgur.com/cVebYOT.jpg


as for mud "huts" which is more common in the south of the country, people there still managed to make wonder out of it :

https://i.imgur.com/mX6fp4M.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sRuzwCg.jpg




Meanwhile we can't say the same for Spain where people literally live in these mud "house" :

https://i.imgur.com/AhOvkIN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IoT6Nue.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/npaF0K9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aOzx4sW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lYQDVXl.jpg

[Hamilcar]

I wonder why Spain didn't overtake Morrocco when Spain was most powerful, back in its "heyday."

they failed and only could take some coastal cities/villages

[The Lawspeaker]

In fact, Belgium, like the Netherlands, is the epitome of a particracy,

[Hamilcar]

You're lying to us here as, just like in the Netherlands, all executive functions are appointed positions. Mayors, aldermen, provincial governors, ministers of government or the Prime Ministers. Not one of them is elected and all are appointed using the spoils system. The images you shown all come from the same left-wing parties that tried to attract migrant votes because they lost the Dutch vote.

The first party, Denk, is so infamous that even the Left placed them under a permanent cordon sanitaire.

Sure these people were randomly selected on the streets to promote diversity and brought more votes, they certainly don't have any kind of degree or experience in the political world.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sure these people were randomly selected on the streets to promote diversity and brought more votes, they certainly don't have any kind of degree or experience in the political world.

What they are is political yes men. It's how the system works.

[Kamal900]

It's not really spanish in its essence because it appeared with the orientalist movement who tried to revive the mudéjar architecture (it's moorish in its essence) but it doesn't matter I would still have bombard that building

Time for our advanced and refined art to be imposed there

https://i.imgur.com/cVebYOT.jpg


as for mud "huts" which is more common in the south of the country, people there still managed to make wonder out of it :

https://i.imgur.com/mX6fp4M.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sRuzwCg.jpg


Meanwhile we can't say the same for Spain where people literally live in these mud "house" :

https://i.imgur.com/AhOvkIN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IoT6Nue.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/npaF0K9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aOzx4sW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lYQDVXl.jpg

The architecture is what you can see from the Abassid period of the Levant and Egypt, thus it's not a "native" Maghrebi architecture to begin with. The Islamic or the Arabesque architecture is based on the Byzantine and Sassanian ones, and even these two are based from Roman and Mesopotamian architecture as well. The Nabatean Arabs as well as the Paymerenes(they were a mixture between Arabs and Aramaeans) also base their architecture on the greco-roman one with their own unique "flavor" mixed in. These mud houses in Spain were created by the local gypsy population. Go to Toledo for example to see how Spaniards live even in the Visigothic Spain and even before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1lk1vEIlLM

[Watson]

morrocans are garbage. waste of air.

[Kamal900]

What they are is political yes men. It's how the system works.

Affirmative action is a bitch, I know.

[The Lawspeaker]

It's the same in both countries where political parties instill a strong party discipline where you vote how the donors of the party want you to vote. This fractiediscipline is actually a violation of article 67 par 3 (for as far as the Netherlands is concerned) but nobody cares. The more you follow orders, the faster you will rise.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Are you stupid? No constitution in the world would allow you to sell cities with people to another country. Not even expel them to create their own state, which is what would be desirable.

I said what I would do. I didn't realize that in my hypothetical situation where I have complete power I'd have to refer to the Spanish Constitution or any constitution. The Spanish Constitution is a joke in itself.

Perhaps a transfer without a monetary gain? Are there any examples of a city being transferred to another within the last 25 years? Perhaps one in Asia. I don't know. You tell me.


In the past these enclaves were strategic for resupply and maritime surveillance, now they are a problem. Luckily all America became independent.

They're more of a financial burden than a benefit to the Spanish economy.

I don't understand how the second sentence is relevant to the first. It's rather random.

[pulstar]

I would sell both cities to Morocco. It's not Spanish land.

You can't cry about Gibraltar and from the other side of your mouth talk about Ceuta and Melilla being part of Spain.

That would be sort of disasster for the inhabitants of those places. Its like when China got Hong Kong. Imagine you're one day you are Spaniard and tomorrow you're... Morrocan. What a degrade :lol:

[Gallop]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGVlTXJoIHA
The Spanish government responds to Morocco: "There is nothing to discuss. Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish"


Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish, there is no theme, the Moroccan government knows it very well and there is no theme, this is not discussed by the Spanish government nor do we discuss it in Spain.


Pronouncement of the Observatory of Ceuta and Melilla of the Institute of Security and Culture on the Moroccan claim for the so-called "issue" of both autonomous cities and which has resulted in the Government of Spain calling for consultations with the ambassador of Morocco tgas the words of the Prime Minister of the neighboring country. The aforementioned Observatory makes it clear that Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies, nor is the comparison with Gibraltar correct, nor are the autonomous cities enclaves, and the communiqué points out that "Morocco should recognize that no one claims anything if it is not theirs".

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

That would be sort of disasster for the inhabitants of those places. Its like when China got Hong Kong. Imagine you're one day you are Spaniard and tomorrow you're... Morrocan. What a degrade :lol:

That's racist, bro.

The difference is Hong Kong is an economically vibrant city. Melilla and Ceuta are not. If all 3 cities want to be independent, that would be fine. I'd sell Melilla and Ceuta because they're irrelevant and a burden. The last time Melilla was relevant was when Franco collected the Spanish Legion and the Moroccan Regular troops for an invasion of Spain.

If I could sell Andalusia and Extremadura, I would also, but at least Andalusia is geographically part of Spain, but much of Spain's economic problems come from south of Madrid.

[Hamilcar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGVlTXJoIHA
The Spanish government responds to Morocco: "There is nothing to discuss. Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish"


Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish, there is no theme, the Moroccan government knows it very well and there is no theme, this is not discussed by the Spanish government nor do we discuss it in Spain.


Pronouncement of the Observatory of Ceuta and Melilla of the Institute of Security and Culture on the Moroccan claim for the so-called "issue" of both autonomous cities and which has resulted in the Government of Spain calling for consultations with the ambassador of Morocco tgas the words of the Prime Minister of the neighboring country. The aforementioned Observatory makes it clear that Ceuta and Melilla are not colonies, nor is the comparison with Gibraltar correct, nor are the autonomous cities enclaves, and the communiqué points out that "Morocco should recognize that no one claims anything if it is not theirs".

Yes the terrorists of the polisario front were saying the same thing we know how it ended. It's just a matter of years/decades, Morocco is determined.

[pulstar]

That's racist, bro.

The difference is Hong Kong is an economically vibrant city. Melilla and Ceuta are not. If all 3 cities want to be independent, that would be fine. I'd sell Melilla and Ceuta because they're irrelevant and a burden. The last time Melilla was relevant was when Franco collected the Spanish Legion and the Moroccan Regular troops for an invasion of Spain.

If I could sell Andalusia, I would also, but at least Andalusia is geographically part of Spain, but much of Spain's economic problems come from south of Madrid.

Its not racist. Morocco is just worse place to live in. Lets say hypothetically, Spain gives those two places to underdeveloped country like Morocco. I don't need to be clairvoyant to know that the first thing Moroccan government would do is install their own governers/mayors in those places with sole purpose to rob that population, and not because they were Spanish yesterday (I don't even have a clue what Spanish-Moroccan relations are like) but because these regions are more wealthy. That's how it usually goes. Whoever denies this is living in a deep illusion.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Its not racist. Morocco is just worse place to live in. Lets say hypothetically, Spain gives those two places to underdeveloped country like Morocco. I don't need to be clairvoyant to know that the first thing Moroccan government would do is install their own governers/mayors in those places with sole purpose to rob that population, and not because they were Spanish yesterday (I don't even have a clue what Spanish-Moroccan relations are like) but because these regions are more wealthy. That's how it usually goes. Whoever denies this is living in a deep illusion.

I was joking. I don't care if you're racist or not.

There is no question that there would be worse corruption under Moroccan rule simply because you can compare it to the rest of the country. I say worse because Spain is a corrupt nation as well but obviously there are degrees of corruption. Third World corruption is very different from First World corruption.

[Hamilcar]

Its not racist. Morocco is just worse place to live in. Lets say hypothetically, Spain gives those two places to underdeveloped country like Morocco. I don't need to be clairvoyant to know that the first thing Moroccan government would do is install their own governers/mayors in those places with sole purpose to rob that population, and not because they were Spanish yesterday (I don't even have a clue what Spanish-Moroccan relations are like) but because these regions are more wealthy. That's how it usually goes. Whoever denies this is living in a deep illusion.

that doesn't make sense because these people have the spanish nationality so like I said before they can safely settle in Mainland Spain and it's probably what will happen

[pulstar]

that doesn't make sense because these people have the spanish nationality so like I said before they can safely settle in Mainland Spain and it's probably what will happen

That might've happened like 120 years ago. Today they'd probably just stay where they are. Like in the example with Hong Kong or Macao, especially if it was kind of a treaty and not in relation to any sort of military intervention.

[Hamilcar]

That might've happened like 120 years ago. Today they'd probably just stay where they are. Like in the example with Hong Kong or Macao, especially if it was kind of a treaty and not in relation to any sort of military intervention.

that is not comparable, Morocco is way poorer. Inhabitants would never accept this and it's not like they have to deal with the CCP

[Cernunnos]

https://s.rfi.fr/media/display/dfaf4a28-1327-11ea-90fd-005056bf7c53/w:1280/p:1x1/cabral_0.jpg

[pulstar]

that is not comparable, Morocco is way poorer. Inhabitants would never accept this and it's not like they have to deal with the CCP

Alright, but I think its quite similar. Compare Hong Kong and China's GDP in the past 22 years. China is way worse, and soon they'll get total control of that territory. Yes, they'll destroy the place as soon as that happens.

Here the inhabitants will not deal with CCP, they might want to move to Spain, but perhaps no one is ready to build new city for ~200 000 people.

[Hamilcar]

Alright, but I think its quite similar. Compare Hong Kong and China's GDP in the past 22 years. China is way worse, and soon they'll get total control of that territory. Yes, they'll destroy the place as soon as that happens.

Here the inhabitants will not deal with CCP, they might want to move to Spain, but perhaps no one is ready to build new city for ~200 000 people.

Terms will surely be way more fair and a referendum would probably take place. Moreover if they have to move them it will be a gradual process with Morocco giving them some time to evacuate these areas.

[Hamilcar]

I wouldn't say "panic" is the most appropriate word in this case.

It would be more appropriate to say "The moroccan parrots are repeating the same again".

Ceuta and Melilla have never belonged to Morocco, I think is not so difficult to understand.

What's next, the Canary Islands? :rolleyes:


Yes it's difficult to understand when these cities have always been mostly inhabited by moroccans and controlled by them for millenias.


And imo Morocco should deviate the migratory routes so that gradually moroccans will be the majority on the Canary Islands which is legitimate after your people slaughtered and enslaved the guanches.

[Westbrook]

Wasn't Morocco the first nation to officially recognize the US as a new country? Seems fair. A bit ironic, but fair.
well it's a win-win deal, why should morocco care about normalizing his relation with a far country like Israel as long as he can take back his sahara without using any type of military force it's perfect. I do agree that canary islands don't belong to morocco (even though their native inhabitants were berbers) but you can't say such thing for Ceuta and Melilla who have always been properties of the different moroccan dynasties and have always been inhabited by moroccans. It's a real lack of respect to Morocco's integrity and a heritage of european imperialism which Morocco should get rid of ASAP. Imo Morocco should be more aggressive regarding these possessions. No mercy.

[Cristiano viejo]

I wish Ceuta and Melilla were Moroccan, or Martian. Whatever less Spanish. They only serve as door for brownies from Morocco.

[Hamilcar]

Wasn't Morocco the first nation to officially recognize the US as a new country? Seems fair. A bit ironic, but fair.


yep :

https://i.imgur.com/5aPOIkZ.png

[Hamilcar]

I wish Ceuta and Melilla were Moroccan, or Martian. Whatever less Spanish. They only serve as door for brownies from Morocco.

Hopefully France is protected with the Pyrenees or else they would have been a truly south european nation

[Westbrook]

Lol wow. Was not aware of this statement.
yep :

https://i.imgur.com/5aPOIkZ.png

[Adamm]

I'd rather keep Ceuta and Mellila Spanish.

[Hamilcar]

I'd rather keep Ceuta and Mellila Spanish.

why ?

[Cristiano viejo]

Hopefully France is protected with the Pyrenees or else they would have been a truly south european nation

You brownies have invaded France until the bones, congratulations for that.

[chinshen]

that doesn't make sense because these people have the spanish nationality so like I said before they can safely settle in Mainland Spain and it's probably what will happen

If there is a referendum and the population of those two cities decide that they want to be part of Morocco instead of Spain, then it would be wise for Spain to strip them off their Spanish nationality and let them join Morocco and get a Moroccan nationality.
It is a choice everyone makes, but have to live with its consequences.

[Smeagol]

What's Morocco planning to do? Invade?

[Cristiano viejo]

What's Morocco planning to do? Invade?

Hahaha, with what? stones and camels? :lol:

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

yep :

https://i.imgur.com/5aPOIkZ.png

Trump doesn't care about any of that. This is about Israel. Trump wants to normalize relations between the two nations. He wants another Muslim nation to recognize Israel and fuck over the Palestinians. I don't understand why Trump is still bending backward for Israel.

[Adamm]

why ?

Moroccan upon itself will not be able to handle the immigration coming out of Sub Saharan Africa, Mellila and Ceuta are European clay so its better to give them free pass to there.

[grecoroman]

A.k.a national suicide.

these are the costs of the so called liberal values of "peace, love and humanity".
While we send our children to school to be morally bankrupted with subhuman values.
The Muslims surrounding our continent only dream of conquering and genociding us. We saw it in Cyprus, now in Armenia and maybe even in Spanish territories.
The subhuman fools who believe that they can have peacefull solutions by agreeing with the demands of Muslim aggressors. Will come to reality when the Muslims will start claiming all of Europe.

When the turks made haghia Sofia a mosque, they answered to the coward Europeans that haghia Sofia was just the beginning and that theyr eyes will be on the Vatican.

When the Azeris took over karabagh. Theyr answer to the coward Europeans was that karabagh was just the beginning and that theyr eyes will be on Yerevan.

And If you believe that the Muslim demands on cueta and melilla will stop there, then you are not only a fool, but blind, deaf and stupid aswell.

[Hamilcar]

What's Morocco planning to do? Invade?

there are always other diplomatic solutions, Morocco is already economically stifling these two enclaves

[Hamilcar]

these are the costs of the so called liberal values of "peace, love and humanity".
While we send our children to school to be morally bankrupted with subhuman values.
The Muslims surrounding our continent only dream of conquering and genociding us. We saw it in Cyprus, now in Armenia and maybe even in Spanish territories.
The subhuman fools who believe that they can have peacefull solutions by agreeing with the demands of Muslim aggressors. Will come to reality when the Muslims will start claiming all of Europe.

When the turks made haghia Sofia a mosque, they answered to the coward Europeans that haghia Sofia was just the beginning and that theyr eyes will be on the Vatican.

When the Azeris took over karabagh. Theyr answer to the coward Europeans was that karabagh was just the beginning and that theyr eyes will be on Yerevan.

And If you believe that the Muslim demands on cueta and melilla will stop there, then you are not only a fool, but blind, deaf and stupid aswell.

AMEN

[Westbrook]

Doesn't it make sense that any culture or religion worth it's own existence should always attempt to eat and conquer the world


And If you believe that the Muslim demands on cueta and melilla will stop there, then you are not only a fool, but blind, deaf and stupid aswell.

[Smeagol]

Hahaha, with what? stones and camels? :lol:

That's my point. Ceuta and Melilla aren't going to become Moroccan.

[grecoroman]

Doesn't it make sense that any culture or religion worth it's own existence should always attempt to eat and conquer the world

Yes. Your right.
A man that doesn't fight for his existence. Will Wither away.
Our downfall will not because our enemies posses superior strength, but because we don't have the will to exist anymore.

[Aldaris]

It's not really spanish in its essence because it appeared with the orientalist movement who tried to revive the mudéjar architecture (it's moorish in its essence) but it doesn't matter I would still have bombard that building

Doesn't work like that. Greeks and Italians don't claim the credit for the entirety of the renaissance even though their cultures were the original influence, as they are aware that argument would fail just as much as here. Pal, some initial inspiration doesn't diminish anything done after, nevermind that the structures are usually even older - both the El Escorial and Pražský Hrad had their beginnings as the Neolithic structures, despite being ultimately designed by the locals centuries ago. Doesn't mean the Neolithics can still claim credit. Get me? What to is take from this, is don't try to simplify stuff all that much.


Time for our advanced and refined art to be imposed there

https://i.imgur.com/cVebYOT.jpg

as for mud "huts" which is more common in the south of the country, people there still managed to make wonder out of it :

https://i.imgur.com/mX6fp4M.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/sRuzwCg.jpg


It's a facking medieval castle. If that's suppossed the advanced stuff right there, you're making it way too easy for me, Nazz.

Modern Bilbo:

http://postimg.cz/images/8Ska.jpg

http://postimg.cz/images/8iH4.jpg

http://postimg.cz/images/8nvi.jpg


Meanwhile we can't say the same for Spain where people literally live in these mud "house" :

https://i.imgur.com/AhOvkIN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IoT6Nue.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/npaF0K9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aOzx4sW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lYQDVXl.jpg

Yeah, sure. Can you also tell me how many actual Spaniards live in these? Go with the actually reliable stuff. Pretty safe bet I'd able to find one of your pals in there instead. In other words, just like the Kamal said, those were made by gypsies, not Spaniards.

[Hamilcar]

Melilla and ceuta soon Insha'allah.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScUxcRGZeZI&t=1s


No mercy !

[Hamilcar]

Doesn't work like that. Greeks and Italians don't claim the credit for the entirety of the renaissance even though their cultures were the original influence, as they are aware that argument would fail just as much as here. Pal, some initial inspiration doesn't diminish anything done after, nevermind that the structures are usually even older - both the El Escorial and Pražský Hrad had their beginnings as the Neolithic structures, despite being ultimately designed by the locals centuries ago. Doesn't mean the Neolithics can still claim credit. Get me? What to is take from this, is don't try to simplify stuff all that much.

Yes the famous "spanish" architecture who can compete with the moorish one is exactly the one who share the most similarities with it lol Obviously it won't be a depressing grey gothic building that will reach the level of the moorish one.





It's a facking medieval castle. If that's suppossed the advanced stuff right there, you're making it way too easy for me, Nazz.

Modern Bilbo:

http://postimg.cz/images/8Ska.jpg

http://postimg.cz/images/8iH4.jpg

http://postimg.cz/images/8nvi.jpg

They are absolutely not castles (you would built your castles with mud now ?) and my point was that even with mud moroccans make wonders and I don't see why you're posting pictures of Bilbao ?? Moroccan architecture isn't only about what I posted lol




Yeah, sure. Can you also tell me how many actual Spaniards live in these? Go with the actually reliable stuff. Pretty safe bet I'd able to find one of your pals in there instead. In other words, just like the Kamal said, those were made by gypsies, not Spaniards.

You were making fun of us by talking about mud huts while your people use it and do way worse than moroccans. These houses were absolutely not made by gypsies and are still inhabited by rural spaniards from small villages where there is zero gypsy communities like in Terradillos de los Templarios, El Burgo Ranero, calatanazor, etc etc

[Westbrook]

I'm vibing with this shtick for some reason. Get after it my guy.
Melilla and ceuta soon Insha'allah.



[video=youtube;ScUxcRGZeZI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScUxcRGZeZI&t=1s[video]


No mercy !

[Hamilcar]

The architecture is what you can see from the Abassid period of the Levant and Egypt, thus it's not a "native" Maghrebi architecture to begin with. The Islamic or the Arabesque architecture is based on the Byzantine and Sassanian ones, and even these two are based from Roman and Mesopotamian architecture as well. The Nabatean Arabs as well as the Paymerenes(they were a mixture between Arabs and Aramaeans) also base their architecture on the greco-roman one with their own unique "flavor" mixed in. These mud houses in Spain were created by the local gypsy population. Go to Toledo for example to see how Spaniards live even in the Visigothic Spain and even before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1lk1vEIlLM

that's simply ignorance moorish architecture is distinctively maghrebi and is not found in the Middle east : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_architecture (of course like with any type of architecture, it's based on many different influences but the architecture itself has its own identity and doesn't belong to middle eastern who have their own architectures which are less impressive imo)

Same could be said about Zellij which is typically moroccan : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zellij


Same for riads who are typically moroccan : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riad_(architecture)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og6cTlwBTrk


In the arabian peninsula, they lack any type of refined architecture that's why they bring moroccan craftsmen to decorate their mosques and palaces as you can see : https://twitter.com/i/status/1326577056717676545

also in the case of the palace of the omani sultan it was made by moroccan craftsmen, you can even see the presence of Zellij :

https://i.imgur.com/9LDDQmT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lTLJ8He.jpg


Moroccans even built an academic faculty in Palestine :

https://i.imgur.com/VXH9X4y.jpg


A famous palestinian thanking Morocco for its art :

“Yes I Am in the country of beauty, color,culture,music,and the most sensual smells. The land of milk and honey … Moorish Architecture.. Islamic Art. This place inspires me to export it into all my international design projects. Love you Morocco ??. You give the Arab world pride. (Picture)!!

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2018/07/251269/palestinian-billionaire-mohamed-hadid-love-morocco/


Middle easterners are so complexed sometimes they only claim moorish monuments as "arab architecture" :

https://i.imgur.com/PcdbS9J.png


There is absolutely no comparison, Moorish architecture is not middle eastern nor any middle eastern building is as beautiful.

Now please show us monuments in the Middle east that looks like these ones :


https://i.imgur.com/k0ZfUXI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VIlj48R.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LT3K9YC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7Mwl2GO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uFAy4uH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bung7bs.jpg

go ahead and show us. Now you're acting like afrocentrist trying to claim our culture. Pathetic

[Westbrook]

Moroccan architecture is clearly some of the finest and most deluxe in the world. I don't know how anyone can pretend otherwise while being honest with themselves.

[Hamilcar]

Moroccan architecture is clearly some of the finest and most deluxe in the world. I don't know how anyone can pretend otherwise while being honest with themselves.

they are dishonest because they simply don't want to agree with me some of them (I let you guess who) said this visigoth church is more impressive :

https://i.imgur.com/uGLW1wX.jpg


you see the level of dishonesty ?

[Westbrook]

Pathetic and inexcusable IMO. Visigoths were trash builders with no sense of aesthetics.
they are dishonest because they simply don't want to agree with me some of them (I let you guess who) said this visigoth church is more impressive :
you see the level of dishonesty ?

[Westbrook]

That dusty Visigoth hovel is so objectionable it actually scuffed the TA server. Unreal. Scrape that mess.

[Cristiano viejo]

That's my point. Ceuta and Melilla aren't going to become Moroccan.
I could not care less about Ceuta and Melilla. Always were Spanish (Ceuta firstly was Portuguese) and until 40 years ago when Franco died Moroccans were barely existent there. With the "democracy" these brownies were allowed to enter, and now they make near the 50% of the population, being the rest ethnic Spaniards (soldiers, administrative personal, teachers, doctors). As usual Moroccans are the trash of their society and source of yihadism, crime and drug traffick. Parasites.

Currently Ceuta and Melilla only serve to that Moroccan brownies and blacks from Subsahara enter to Europe. Two good shitholes. And EU is who allows this invasion.

[The Lawspeaker]

I could not care less about Ceuta and Melilla. Always were Spanish (Ceuta firstly was Portuguese) and until 40 years ago when Franco died Moroccans were barely existent there. With the "democracy" these brownies were allowed to enter, and now they make near the 50% of the population, being the rest ethnic Spaniards (soldiers, administrative personal, teachers, doctors). As usual Moroccans are the trash of their society and source of yihadism, crime and drug traffick. Parasites.

Currently Ceuta and Melilla only serve to that Moroccan brownies and blacks from Subsahara enter to Europe. Two good shitholes. And EU is who allows this invasion.

Turns out that the problem lies more with our own governments. How can we see this being the case ? Look at how various countries closed the UK border.

[Westbrook]

Lay those big facts at that man's feet for a thorough review
Turns out that the problem lies more with our own governments. How can we see this being the case ? Look at how various countries closed the UK border.

[The Lawspeaker]

Lay those big facts at that man's feet for a thorough review

I think it's very clever when you think of it: our own governments fuck us over and then they blame it on the next guy and people believe it.

[Westbrook]

Big brain tactics had us scuffed from the start before we even got born, you ain't lyin. It was premeditated.

But maybe that's part of why we're here now. Maybe that's why we were pulled from the cozy void into this shoddy hellscape.... To correct certain mistakes.
I think it's very clever when you think of it: our own governments fuck us over and then they blame it on the next guy and people believe it.

[dark-mysterio]

I wouldn't say "panic" is the most appropriate word in this case.

It would be more appropriate to say "The moroccan parrots are repeating the same again".

Ceuta and Melilla have never belonged to Morocco, I think is not so difficult to understand.

What's next, the Canary Islands? :rolleyes:

yes it's as before the marinides dynasty lost ceuta to the portugues and the latter wattasides (as well as others dynasty) could not re-conquer neither ceuta nor melilla (unlike others city re-conquered during the saadians & alaouites period from the portuguese/spanish)

[Kamal900]

that's simply ignorance moorish architecture is distinctively maghrebi and is not found in the Middle east : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_architecture (of course like with any type of architecture, it's based on many different influences but the architecture itself has its own identity and doesn't belong to middle eastern who have their own architectures which are less impressive imo)

Same could be said about Zellij which is typically moroccan : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zellij


Same for riads who are typically moroccan : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riad_(architecture)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og6cTlwBTrk


In the arabian peninsula, they lack any type of refined architecture that's why they bring moroccan craftsmen to decorate their mosques and palaces as you can see : https://twitter.com/i/status/1326577056717676545

also in the case of the palace of the omani sultan it was made by moroccan craftsmen, you can even see the presence of Zellij :

https://i.imgur.com/9LDDQmT.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lTLJ8He.jpg


Moroccans even built an academic faculty in Palestine :

https://i.imgur.com/VXH9X4y.jpg


A famous palestinian thanking Morocco for its art :

“Yes I Am in the country of beauty, color,culture,music,and the most sensual smells. The land of milk and honey … Moorish Architecture.. Islamic Art. This place inspires me to export it into all my international design projects. Love you Morocco ??. You give the Arab world pride. (Picture)!!

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2018/07/251269/palestinian-billionaire-mohamed-hadid-love-morocco/


Middle easterners are so complexed sometimes they only claim moorish monuments as "arab architecture" :

https://i.imgur.com/PcdbS9J.png


There is absolutely no comparison, Moorish architecture is not middle eastern nor any middle eastern building is as beautiful.

Now please show us monuments in the Middle east that looks like these ones :


https://i.imgur.com/k0ZfUXI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VIlj48R.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LT3K9YC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7Mwl2GO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uFAy4uH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bung7bs.jpg

go ahead and show us. Now you're acting like afrocentrist trying to claim our culture. Pathetic

No one's claiming anything. I said that the Moorish architecture is based on the Arabesque one which in itself is based on the Byzantine and Sassanian ones. Even the wiki article makes mention of this too:

This architectural style blended influences from Berber culture in North Africa, pre-Islamic Iberia (Roman, Byzantine, and Visigothic), and contemporary artistic currents in the Islamic Middle East to elaborate a unique style over centuries with recognizable features such as the "Moorish" arch, riad gardens (courtyard gardens with a symmetrical four-part division), and elaborate geometric and arabesque motifs in wood, stucco, and tilework (notably zellij).[1][2][7][10] Major centers of this artistic development included the main capitals of the empires and Muslim states in the region's history, such as Cordoba, Kairouan, Fes, Marrakesh, Seville, Granada and Tlemcen.[1]

[Hamilcar]

No one's claiming anything. I said that the Moorish architecture is based on the Arabesque one which in itself is based on the Byzantine and Sassanian ones. Even the wiki article makes mention of this too:

It's not only based on it nor does it mean it's middle eastern

[Kamal900]

It's not only based on it nor does it mean it's middle eastern

No, but it's heavily based on middle eastern and greco-roman architectures with a unique twist which is what the Moorish architecture is. It's not something that the local Maghrebis came the entire architecture without being based on other cultures.

[Hamilcar]

No, but it's heavily based on middle eastern and greco-roman architectures with a unique twist which is what the Moorish architecture is. It's not something that the local Maghrebis came the entire architecture without being based on other cultures.

with that logic no country has its own architecture it's all based on influence

[Kamal900]

with that logic no country has its own architecture it's all based on influence

Not all, but for the most part, yes.

[Autrigón]

yes it's as before the marinides dynasty lost ceuta to the portugues and the latter wattasides (as well as others dynasty) could not re-conquer neither ceuta nor melilla (unlike others city re-conquered during the saadians & alaouites period from the portuguese/spanish)They were divided tribes from north Africa who depended from Arabia. Morocco didn't exist as a country yet.

Only Portugal could claim something about Ceuta but the city decided to be spanish with the end of the Iberian Union.

[Kamal900]

They were divided tribes from north Africa who depended from Arabia. Morocco didn't exist as a country yet.

Only Portugal could claim something about Ceuta but the city decided to be spanish with the end of the Iberian Union.

Yes sir. Portugal is the world's oldest nation that had existed since the 11th century AD. Morocco thinks that it can take Spain head on just because they bent the knee to the US and Israel in exchange in recognizing the western Sahara as part of Morocco even though neither the US or Israel has any quarrels with Spain, and Spain is part of NATO as well which they can easily call on article 5 to bomb the hell out of Morocco easily. As for the Canary islands, just lol. The Guanche Berbers only exists as local Berber admixtures in today's Canary people who identify themselves first and only as Spanish, and they see Morocco no differently from other countries in Africa.

[Autrigón]

Well I thought nobody wanted to invest there :rolleyes: And no most investors are not chinese :

https://i.imgur.com/9vaEMvD.png

:)So France and Spain are the biggest investors in Morocco...and the grateful moroccans attack France with their jihadist terrorism and moroccans attack Spain with their aggressive "diplomacy".

Very intelligent these moroccans...very intelligent... :chin:

[Hamilcar]

So France and Spain are the biggest investors in Morocco...and the grateful moroccans attack France with their jihadist terrorism and moroccans attack Spain with their aggressive "diplomacy".

Very intelligent these moroccans...very intelligent... :chin:

That doesn't make sense because Morocco helped western nations to fight terrorism :

https://middle-east-online.com/en/spain-collaborates-morocco-terror-suspects-arrest
https://www.africanews.com/2016/03/01/terrorism-belgium-seeks-collaboration-with-morocco/
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/05/30/france-and-morocco-announce-counter-terrorism-cooperation/


the problem is with some muslims who were born and grew up in your country not Morocco

[Hamilcar]

Not all, but for the most part, yes.

no all of them

I challenge you to find an impressive architecture that is not based on any type of influence. Good luck.

[Kamal900]

no all of them

I challenge you to find an impressive architecture that is not based on any type of influence. Good luck.

Look at the Germanic longhouses that was the ancestral architecture for the timber framed houses that goes back perhaps in the Neolithic period that both Celtic and Germanic peoples used to live back in Roman times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_framing#Topping_out_ceremony

For the Moorish construction, is a mixture of old Roman and Arabesque construction with local flavor mixed in. The ancient Berbers were pastoralists back in the day, and one can look at the old Phoenician migrants of Sidon and Tyre that migrated to North Africa and brought the technologies and cultures of the Levant to the region which became the Carthaginian civilization. It fact, Punics were also called Western Phoenicians, and even the Phoenicians in Lebanon begged the Persian king, Xerxes, in not to invade Carthage since they see it as their own which the king respected their wishes. As for the ancient Libyans though, well, Massylii were considered to be Berbers, thus the Numidians were Berbers too which their language could be described as Berber, but sharing a common ancestry with the other Berber dialects which one of dialects evolved into the modern Berber languages we know today while other proto-Berber dialects died out which I think it can be true for the ancient Libu and Meshwash tribes as well. Proto-Berber diverged from proto-Semitic around 5,000 BC or 7,000 BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21920-Autosomal-of-Egyptian-pharaohs&p=727966&viewfull=1#post727966

The point is that, well, every civilization in the old world has some form of contacts with others and etc, and Moors were no exception to that. The guanches for example had been isolated for over 3,000 years and so on. The guanche DNA is not only interesting on the fact that they were native NA who are very close to Northern Moroccans and other Maghrebis, but also their isolated DNA can be used to determine the migrations of Maghrebis to the middle east. AE's as well as modern Egyptians are over 20 to 25% Maghrebi genetically. While Levantine Christians don't have such ancestry in them which is true for Syrian and Lebanese Muslims, for Palestinian Muslims though they're around 10% on average which is true for someone like me:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21920-Autosomal-of-Egyptian-pharaohs/page44&p=730349#post730349
https://i.ibb.co/ww6b1Wr/2020-12-17-22-18-18-g25vahaduo-genetics-ovh-2fc3df8cc0ae.png

The point to all of this is that pretty much most cultures of the Old World had interacted with one another and so on.

[Hamilcar]

Look at the Germanic longhouses that was the ancestral architecture for the timber framed houses that goes back perhaps in the Neolithic period that both Celtic and Germanic peoples used to live back in Roman times.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_framing#Topping_out_ceremony

It's not impressive nor is the technique specifically "germanic" reread the link you posted please.


For the Moorish construction, is a mixture of old Roman and Arabesque construction with local flavor mixed in. The ancient Berbers were pastoralists back in the day, and one can look at the old Phoenician migrants of Sidon and Tyre that migrated to North Africa and brought the technologies and cultures of the Levant to the region which became the Carthaginian civilization. It fact, Punics were also called Western Phoenicians, and even the Phoenicians in Lebanon begged the Persian king, Xerxes, in not to invade Carthage since they see it as their own which the king respected their wishes. As for the ancient Libyans though, well, Massylii were considered to be Berbers, thus the Numidians were Berbers too which their language could be described as Berber, but sharing a common ancestry with the other Berber dialects which one of dialects evolved into the modern Berber languages we know today while other proto-Berber dialects died out which I think it can be true for the ancient Libu and Meshwash tribes as well. Proto-Berber diverged from proto-Semitic around 5,000 BC or 7,000 BP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Berber_language
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21920-Autosomal-of-Egyptian-pharaohs&p=727966&viewfull=1#post727966


You clearly don't know what you're talking about, that's an old myth most ancient berbers in the maghreb are sedentarized since at least the early neolithic era : "The origins of agriculture in North-West Africa: macro-botanical remains from Epipalaeolithic and Early Neolithic levels of Ifri Oudadane (Morocco)" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030544031300040X

here too : https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/12712815/linstaedter2008q55.pdf?1336114047=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DLinstadter_J_2008 _The_Epipalaeolithic_Ne.pdf&Expires=1608760060&Signature=e3v7OzYCF~b7EJuF-KLQFetVO8cHXXXb0Etgn3pBlSswVFZNHLgJ5f0buqIFM-jObqzdg2~NVkqXiJ~rAGLkU8YRpOdv19pogiFSCwiP4PGvkn9u ICHN7LIGQy9LqQaDRjFZf1VsrwzyTfXhsh~Rs9aRVRe~BbYNho Ek-W~rQuCskpAhQ62hue2X9RBsTAiBBjtVh~tVs8COKr9mAa1T8On 1f701Y1GPABb3k2FfY45bBuHfMuDrkJypddxe7LECN6uc1N7Dj GapOlNgdp-elXbLbeypR~dYb3VMZLbNvpVJH~GDHNqS1IB9lonPTnEUOvU75 fBMHlDTAVdI8MzdGQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

As for the phoenician influence no historians or specialists agree with you :


From the meeting of these two entities, Eastern and African, was born the Punic fact. It is not the simple transplantation on African land of what was in Sidon and Tire. If the Punic tradition was so alive among the old Africans is precisely because it was not foreign to them but constituted in their midst, in cities where essentially Semitic onomastics cannot hide the African ethnic contribution.

https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2293


From this penetration of the Carthaginians into the midst of the African populations was to result a sort of fusion which resulted in a large ethnic and cultural community. Thus, to take an example, in the time of Saint Augustine, we still spoke of a sort of Libyco-Punic dialect in some rural areas. The civilization of Carthage had been able to impose itself little by little, but in turn, certain indigenous customs and traditional beliefs left their mark on those of these Phoenicians who became Libyphoenicians.. By this "Africanization", which further enriches it, the Punic civilization belongs Authentically part of North African cultural heritage. "There is no doubt, writes Jérôme Carcopino, that these colonies have, in the long run, formed so many centers of a mixed civilization which, step by step, has spread from the coast to the continent and made it prevail over all of North Africa, and for millennia, the spirit of Carthage Carthage ou empire de la mer, François Decret, p114


According to S.Gsell, It was necessary for the Phoenicians to maintain good relations with the natives, who fueled their trade and could provide them with a robust and inexpensive workforce. They welcomed a number of them into their walls (Silius Italicus, l. c., Salluste, Jugurtha, LXXVIII, 4 ) and It is believed that from the start more than one settler took a wife among the natives, for the immigrants were to be predominantly men.


as for your statement about their names you clearly haven't read any book about carthage and Rome because according to François Décret, the Romans distinguished between the Eastern Phoenicians "phoenices" and those of the West resulting from a mixing with the local populations "poeni" (Punic)

Even the old libyan script isn't of phoenician origin according to specialists and here is why :

The Libyan / Phoenician similarities are very minor (6 to 7 characters out of 24 or 25 letters); the general appearance as well as the predominant orientation (bottom to top) of the two alphabets are very different.
The appearance of the Libyan alphabet is much older than traditionally thought (at least the 6th century BC) and dates back to a time when the Phoenician-Punic influence is still limited in North Africa. .
The oldest documents come from regions far from the poles of Punic influence: Moroccan High Atlas, Saharan regions (Algerian Saharan Atlas, central Sahara).
The concentration of Libyan testimonies in areas of strong Punic settlement (and high urbanization) can be explained by an influence on the use of writing - i. e. development of the practice of the epitaph through contact with the Phoenico-Punic - rather than a Punic origin of writing proper.
The general forms of Libyan writing (geometry) fit perfectly into the lineage of geometric figures and symbols of proto-historical North African cave art (paintings and engravings) and the geometric decoration of Berber rural art.

The name tifinagh, contrary to appearances, does not imply a Phoenician-Punic origin. As G. Camps (EB XVII) rightly pointed out, an appellation with a geographical or ethnic reference cannot be considered as a proof of origin (see in French the “figuier de Barbarie” originating in America, or the "Gothic" writing which owes nothing to the Goths, if not a distant Germanic cousin! The examples are innumerable); in this case, the reference to the Phoenicians / Punics can just as well be explained by the development of funerary use under the influence of Punic practices.

The Berber lexical root for "to write / write" R (w) is Berber and Pan-Berber and certainly results from a semantic evolution from an older signified, prior to writing ("to engrave", "to mark" , "Incise").

Finally, and above all, there is no intermediate form between the Phoenician-Punic and the Libyan: the two alphabets coexisted from the start, totally differentiated, with a solution of absolute continuity between the Semitic alphabet and the Berber alphabet. . A direct borrowing from the Phoenician or the Punic would suppose stages, even brief, adaptive intermediaries, between the two writings

As a result, it is very difficult to explain the appearance of Libyan writing by the direct borrowing of a Semitic alphabet: too much objective data tends to show that the emergence of this writing refers to a largely socio-cultural dynamic. internal to Berber society. It seems that this nuanced approach - an endogenous emergence, in contact with a civilization that carries writing - is now accepted by the majority of specialists.

So don't overestimate this influence pls


The point is that, well, every civilization in the old world has some form of contacts with others and etc, and Moors were no exception to that. The guanches for example had been isolated for over 3,000 years and so on. The guanche DNA is not only interesting on the fact that they were native NA who are very close to Northern Moroccans and other Maghrebis, but also their isolated DNA can be used to determine the migrations of Maghrebis to the middle east. AE's as well as modern Egyptians are over 20 to 25% Maghrebi genetically. While Levantine Christians don't have such ancestry in them which is true for Syrian and Lebanese Muslims, for Palestinian Muslims though they're around 10% on average which is true for someone like me:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21920-Autosomal-of-Egyptian-pharaohs/page44&p=730349#post730349
https://i.ibb.co/ww6b1Wr/2020-12-17-22-18-18-g25vahaduo-genetics-ovh-2fc3df8cc0ae.png

The point to all of this is that pretty much most cultures of the Old World had interacted with one another and so on.

I agree but saying it's middle eastern is pure dishonesty.

[Alexandro]

Try and take it then, bitch.

I could really care less either way, there is nothing special about those places and they just act as a hotspot for north African illegals at this point. I also do not give a fuck about Gibraltar, the people there are perfectly content with being a overseas British territory and wealthy people just love to use it as a tax haven, it won't happen.

[Aldaris]

Yes the famous "spanish" architecture who can compete with the moorish one is exactly the one who share the most similarities with it lol Obviously it won't be a depressing grey gothic building that will reach the level of the moorish one.

I like one thing about you, Nassbean. Your zealous confidence despite all the facts going against you. That's nice but a little integrity for a change wouldn't hurt either. Now, for real, are you suggesting Morocco can compare to Spain in influence and significance when it comes to architecture? :laugh: If there was such a list, Spain would be near the top, if not on the very top.

Now, as for your claim, how exactly moorish or unable to compete are Palacio Real de Madrid, Basílica de la Sagrada Família, El Escoreal or Plaza de España?



They are absolutely not castles (you would built your castles with mud now ?)

No, the Spanish definitely wouldn't.


and my point was that even with mud moroccans make wonders and I don't see why you're posting pictures of Bilbao ?? Moroccan architecture isn't only about what I posted lol

Because despite my points above about historical architecture, we don't live in those times anymore. Well, at least we don't. I was in North Africa several times and the picture of that village I originally posted is actually pretty accurate. Difference is, that's the standard in there and most of the region is indeed like that. Meanwhile in Spain, living like that is at the very least a complete fringe, if not outright nonexistent. Either way, that's moot for the point.

[Hamilcar]

I like one thing about you, Nassbean. Your zealous confidence despite all the facts going against you. That's nice but a little integrity for a change wouldn't hurt either. Now, for real, are you suggesting Morocco can compare to Spain in influence and significance when it comes to architecture? :laugh: If there was such a list, Spain would be near the top, if not on the very top.

Now, as for your claim, how exactly moorish or unable to compete are Palacio Real de Madrid, Basílica de la Sagrada Família, El Escoreal or Plaza de España?

you can't be serious wtf ?? I can agree on italy, france or The UK but certainly not Spain. It's not a coincidence if the most popular and most visited monuments in Spain are almost all moorish : https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g187427-c135233/Spain:The.Most.Visited.Monuments.In.Spain.html

Come on I know you like to play the ultra nationalist but be at least honest no need to be that delusional

[Aldaris]

you can't be serious wtf ?? I can agree on italy, france or The UK but certainly not Spain. It's not a coincidence if the most popular and most visited monuments in Spain are almost all moorish : https://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g187427-c135233/Spain:The.Most.Visited.Monuments.In.Spain.html

Come on I know you like to play the ultra nationalist but be at least honest no need to be that delusional

There goes the simplistic reasoning again. You think those monuments were built by the moors and then left alone to this day? Nope pal, every single one of them was handled by Spanish architects to make them what they are now - if you'd compared how they looked like in the moorish era vs how they look now, you'd swear it's a different structure. Tackled on that in one of my previous posts. Look at those monuments again:

Palacio de Carlos V:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Alhambra_-_Palacio_Carlos_V._-_South.jpg

Alhambra (Ferdinand and Isabella turned it into a renaissance palace after the Reconquista):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Dawn_Charles_V_Palace_Alhambra_Granada_Andalusia_S pain.jpg

By a looks of it, not the places where I can get my tajine.

What do we have next, some museums and cathedrals? Straight of Mekka I guess aswell.

[Hamilcar]

There goes the simplistic reasoning again. You think those monuments were built by the moors and then left alone to this day? Nope pal, every single one of them was handled by Spanish architects to make them what they are now - if you'd compared how they looked like in the moorish era vs how they look now, you'd swear it's a different structure. Tackled on that in one of my previous posts. Look at those monuments again:

Palacio de Carlos V:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Alhambra_-_Palacio_Carlos_V._-_South.jpg

Alhambra (Ferdinand and Isabella turned it into a renaissance palace after the Reconquista):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Dawn_Charles_V_Palace_Alhambra_Granada_Andalusia_S pain.jpg

By a looks of it, not the places where I can get my tajine.

What do we have next, some museums and cathedrals? Straight of Mekka I guess aswell.


Wow you're just dishonest here as if these additions were important. You also forget that these same spanish architects relied on mudejars to built new monuments in the pure mudejar style.

where is the "renaissance" here ? :

https://i.imgur.com/89LugBs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qNupWR6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uRgh2Sq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/khF2EjO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b53hIaO.jpg


stop lying to yourself Aldaris you already know people don't come to see these modifications but to see the marvellous moorish art.

It was so advanced and impressive that it was used for modern buildings in Spain :

La plaza de toros de Albacete

https://i.imgur.com/VShXkqL.jpg


Museum of Arts and Popular Customs of Seville :

https://i.imgur.com/8WCAeNh.jpg


Gran Teatro Falla of Cádiz

https://i.imgur.com/JN8ypUW.jpg



Am I in Spain or Morocco ? :laugh:

[Cristiano viejo]

As for the Canary islands, just lol. The Guanche Berbers only exists as local Berber admixtures in today's Canary people who identify themselves first and only as Spanish, and they see Morocco no differently from other countries in Africa.
Canarians think about Moroccans and other North African brownies just as absolute aliens to them, even knowing themselves have North African blood.


That doesn't make sense because Morocco helped western nations to fight terrorism :



HAHAHAHAHAHA
How? sending thousands of brownies who are terrorists themselves? :lol:

Every day you overcome yourself, boy ;)

[Kamal900]

It's not impressive nor is the technique specifically "germanic" reread the link you posted please.




You clearly don't know what you're talking about, that's an old myth most ancient berbers in the maghreb are sedentarized since at least the early neolithic era : "The origins of agriculture in North-West Africa: macro-botanical remains from Epipalaeolithic and Early Neolithic levels of Ifri Oudadane (Morocco)" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030544031300040X

here too : https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/12712815/linstaedter2008q55.pdf?1336114047=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DLinstadter_J_2008 _The_Epipalaeolithic_Ne.pdf&Expires=1608760060&Signature=e3v7OzYCF~b7EJuF-KLQFetVO8cHXXXb0Etgn3pBlSswVFZNHLgJ5f0buqIFM-jObqzdg2~NVkqXiJ~rAGLkU8YRpOdv19pogiFSCwiP4PGvkn9u ICHN7LIGQy9LqQaDRjFZf1VsrwzyTfXhsh~Rs9aRVRe~BbYNho Ek-W~rQuCskpAhQ62hue2X9RBsTAiBBjtVh~tVs8COKr9mAa1T8On 1f701Y1GPABb3k2FfY45bBuHfMuDrkJypddxe7LECN6uc1N7Dj GapOlNgdp-elXbLbeypR~dYb3VMZLbNvpVJH~GDHNqS1IB9lonPTnEUOvU75 fBMHlDTAVdI8MzdGQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

As for the phoenician influence no historians or specialists agree with you :



https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2293




According to S.Gsell, It was necessary for the Phoenicians to maintain good relations with the natives, who fueled their trade and could provide them with a robust and inexpensive workforce. They welcomed a number of them into their walls (Silius Italicus, l. c., Salluste, Jugurtha, LXXVIII, 4 ) and It is believed that from the start more than one settler took a wife among the natives, for the immigrants were to be predominantly men.


as for your statement about their names you clearly haven't read any book about carthage and Rome because according to François Décret, the Romans distinguished between the Eastern Phoenicians "phoenices" and those of the West resulting from a mixing with the local populations "poeni" (Punic)

Even the old libyan script isn't of phoenician origin according to specialists and here is why :

The Libyan / Phoenician similarities are very minor (6 to 7 characters out of 24 or 25 letters); the general appearance as well as the predominant orientation (bottom to top) of the two alphabets are very different.
The appearance of the Libyan alphabet is much older than traditionally thought (at least the 6th century BC) and dates back to a time when the Phoenician-Punic influence is still limited in North Africa. .
The oldest documents come from regions far from the poles of Punic influence: Moroccan High Atlas, Saharan regions (Algerian Saharan Atlas, central Sahara).
The concentration of Libyan testimonies in areas of strong Punic settlement (and high urbanization) can be explained by an influence on the use of writing - i. e. development of the practice of the epitaph through contact with the Phoenico-Punic - rather than a Punic origin of writing proper.
The general forms of Libyan writing (geometry) fit perfectly into the lineage of geometric figures and symbols of proto-historical North African cave art (paintings and engravings) and the geometric decoration of Berber rural art.

The name tifinagh, contrary to appearances, does not imply a Phoenician-Punic origin. As G. Camps (EB XVII) rightly pointed out, an appellation with a geographical or ethnic reference cannot be considered as a proof of origin (see in French the “figuier de Barbarie” originating in America, or the "Gothic" writing which owes nothing to the Goths, if not a distant Germanic cousin! The examples are innumerable); in this case, the reference to the Phoenicians / Punics can just as well be explained by the development of funerary use under the influence of Punic practices.

The Berber lexical root for "to write / write" R (w) is Berber and Pan-Berber and certainly results from a semantic evolution from an older signified, prior to writing ("to engrave", "to mark" , "Incise").

Finally, and above all, there is no intermediate form between the Phoenician-Punic and the Libyan: the two alphabets coexisted from the start, totally differentiated, with a solution of absolute continuity between the Semitic alphabet and the Berber alphabet. . A direct borrowing from the Phoenician or the Punic would suppose stages, even brief, adaptive intermediaries, between the two writings

As a result, it is very difficult to explain the appearance of Libyan writing by the direct borrowing of a Semitic alphabet: too much objective data tends to show that the emergence of this writing refers to a largely socio-cultural dynamic. internal to Berber society. It seems that this nuanced approach - an endogenous emergence, in contact with a civilization that carries writing - is now accepted by the majority of specialists.

So don't overestimate this influence pls



I agree but saying it's middle eastern is pure dishonesty.

Who said that the Old Libyan script was of Phoenician origins? I didn't. Well, the Punics or the Western Phoenicians weren't mostly of Phoenician origins which one can see the genetics of the Sardinian Punics which - while being admixed with the locals of the island - are more NA than ME in genetics which tells us that the Punics of North Africa were mostly of Phoenicianized natives which is true for the Arabic speaking Maghrebis as well later on. I was clearly talking about in a cultural context here were heavily influenced by the powers of the Old World be it Roman, Phoenicians and etc.

And - while old Maghrebis did practiced farming in the neolithic period - most didn't due to the desertification of Africa that made farming very difficult hence why the old Berbers that were living up in the very coastal lines of Africa built their kingdoms like the ancient Numidians while many lived as pastoralists in more arid regions of NA which is true for the inhabitants of ancient Arabia where the old Semitic kingdomgs of Yemen like the Sabaeans or the Mineans were able to construct cities and kingdoms in less arid areas of Arabia. Same with the ancient kingdom of Oman that ruled both modern day UAE and coatsal Oman too:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?306227-The-Historical-And-Cultural-Heritage-Of-The-Middle-East&p=6319169&viewfull=1#post6319169

However, there's a reason why the world's oldest civilizations are located besides rivers like ancient Egypt with the Nile river, ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia(in fact, the name, Mesopotamia, was coined by the Greeks of the two rivers), the Chinese civilization of the Yellow river and so on. It was impossible for ancient NA to pass through the Saharan desert to SSA without the use of dromedary camels that did changed everything then. Ancient Egyptians managed to cross the deserts of Upper Egypt to Sudan and etc thanks to the Nile river that they used as a rail way system at the time for travel, but no such rivers exists in the Maghreb.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/camels-from-wild-beast-to-man-s-best-friend-1.211953

In fact, the world's earliest attested Arabic pronoun was found in ancient Assyrian records for she-camels; Naqqah in Arabic. And of course, the world's earliest attestation of the ancient Arabs came also from Assyrian records of local Levantine kings that branded together against the Assyrians in the battle of Qarqar in the mid 9th century BC which the world's earliest Arabic name was also attested, Gindibu which means locust in Arabic.
https://twitter.com/safaitic/status/1207150250739277824?lang=en

Thus, it's not at all odd for people to associate camels with Arabs and other Arabian peoples like say the ancient Sabaeans really. Assyrian art depiction of Arabs from the 8th and 7th centuries BC:
https://www.livius.org/site/assets/files/15907/nineveh_assurbanipal_attack_on_arabs1.jpg

Even Herodotus met these Arabs back in Egypt as well which we can also prove with epigraphic evidence on that. In fact, Arabia back then wasn't referred to the entire peninsula but rather the eastern delta and the Sinai of Egypt, Gaza and it's southern borders and NW Hijaz was the *real* Arabia if you will according to Michael C.A Macdonald.
https://twitter.com/safaitic/status/1028330921164861440?lang=en

[Insuperable]

Yeah, I am sure they are pissing their pants.:pound:

[Aldaris]

Wow you're just dishonest here as if these additions were important. You also forget that these same spanish architects relied on mudejars to built new monuments in the pure mudejar style.

where is the "renaissance" here ? :

https://i.imgur.com/89LugBs.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qNupWR6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uRgh2Sq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/khF2EjO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b53hIaO.jpg


In the same sense the French and the Italians realied on the Greeks. Adittions are the most important thing in general in any field, this one included. Yeah, you can post more pictures if you think it helps your point. And don't go for the low-hanging fruit. I've posted other stuff and you know that well - Palacio Real de Madrid, Basílica de la Sagrada Família, El Escoreal or Plaza de España. I could go on, but the point is established.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Palacio_Real_1.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_architecture#/media/File:Sevilla_Plaza_de_Espa%C3%B1a_19-03-2011_13-36-19.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagrada_Fam%C3%ADlia#/media/File:%CE%A3%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B1_%C E%A6%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%B1_2941.jpg[/QUOTE]




stop lying to yourself Aldaris you already know people don't come to see these modifications but to see the marvellous moorish art.

It was so advanced and impressive that it was used for modern buildings in Spain :

La plaza de toros de Albacete

https://i.imgur.com/VShXkqL.jpg


Museum of Arts and Popular Customs of Seville :

https://i.imgur.com/8WCAeNh.jpg


Gran Teatro Falla of Cádiz

https://i.imgur.com/JN8ypUW.jpg



Am I in Spain or Morocco ? :laugh:[/QUOTE]

Spain. See the latter, pal.

[dark-mysterio]

They were divided tribes from north Africa who depended from Arabia. Morocco didn't exist as a country yet.

Only Portugal could claim something about Ceuta but the city decided to be spanish with the end of the Iberian Union.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC8U71LRIkg


i understand the land where divide when a ruler dynasty/failed but seeing that the the region was never united under a strong ruler at some points isn't a bit false :confused:

and what's do you mean about "They were divided tribes from north Africa who depended from Arabia" :confused:

as for Portugal i understand the whey left leaderless after the battle of the three kings and basically the Spanish crown annexed them later ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alc%C3%A1cer_Quibir

once why ceuta is Spanish on not Portuguese ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZi3y5wQhw&t=89s

[ClanStewart]

It’s so funny when these sellout weak neo liberal European politicians cry to the EU about another country making claims on its territory, when those same politicians will imprison their own citizens for speaking out against the current colonisation of Europe. These territories are nothing but a burden to Spain providing and easy entry point for migrants.

[kaderoran]

There are no big problems between Morocco and Spain
Spain benefits from the fishing grounds in Morocco and the wealth of the Sahara, and there is good trade exchange between the two countries
The Spanish party wants to win some political matters and as it knows that the socialist parties in Spain have always had a good relationship with Morocco

[Gota_type_]

It’s so funny when these sellout weak neo liberal European politicians cry to the EU about another country making claims on its territory, when those same politicians will imprison their own citizens for speaking out against the current colonisation of Europe. These territories are nothing but a burden to Spain providing and easy entry point for migrants.

I would have cared a Little if Ceuta and Melilla had a majority of Spanish population BUT the bastards politicians of these cities have been given citinzenships as candies to all moroccoans that crossed the borders. Even it was always allowed that moroccoans could cross the border to give birth to moroccoans in Ceuta and Melilla hospitals, which allowed them to have the citizenship in that moment. So, 30 years ago, 90% of the people in those 2 Spanish cities were Spanish. Today, is only 55%. We should give thanks again to traitor politicians for making trouble, for being traitors, and working for getting new votes so they can maintain their public salaries.

Moroccoans are the worst scum on Earth. They are EVERYDAY in our newspapers in the cathegory of: rapes, robberies, murders, and all kind of delinquency. They are ugly bastards with a low IQ. They are savages that should be deported back to their shitty country. And the queer King of Morocco should stop using UE money to buy 90 million euro mansions in París.

[Kamal900]

...

[Hamilcar]

https://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy-downsized-large.gif



Look at these rats spitting their hatred :lmao

[sioned]

IMHO, I really dont care about Ceuta and Melila, its not my land anyway, but I can understand both claims, however, Spain also wants Gibraltar back, dont they? Then, how to dismiss Moroccan claims? Not taken any sides here, but these claims are quite hilarious when you think about it..

[Kamal900]

IMHO, I really dont care about Ceuta and Melila, its not my land anyway, but I can understand both claims, however, Spain also wants Gibraltar back, dont they? Then, how to dismiss Moroccan claims? Not taken any sides here, but these claims are quite hilarious when you think about it..

Well, both are valid claims, and really, they should have a referendum if they want either independence or being part of Morocco/Spain.

[Cristiano viejo]

There are no big problems between Morocco and Spain

:laugh2:


IMHO, I really dont care about Ceuta and Melila, its not my land anyway, but I can understand both claims, however, Spain also wants Gibraltar back, dont they? Then, how to dismiss Moroccan claims? Not taken any sides here, but these claims are quite hilarious when you think about it..

Ceuta and Melilla never were Moroccan, that is the difference.

[Cristiano viejo]

Moroccoans are the worst scum on Earth. They are EVERYDAY in our newspapers in the cathegory of: rapes, robberies, murders, and all kind of delinquency. They are ugly bastards with a low IQ. They are savages that should be deported back to their shitty country. And the queer King of Morocco should stop using UE money to buy 90 million euro mansions in París.
Have you seen the video from yesterday where a few Moroccans hit to an autistic teen in Catalonia?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGEDQrrcoM8

Moroccans are the dirtiest beings in the history of mankind, that is a fact.

[Jehan]

Moroccans are the dirtiest beings in the history of mankind, that is a fact.


The dirtiest, I'am not sure. You haven't algerians in spain?

[Autrigón]

Well, both are valid claims, and really, they should have a referendum if they want either independence or being part of Morocco/Spain.Look at this pic. This is the city of Melilla, on the Spanish side people play golf. In the Moroccan side the immigrants try to climb the fence of the border.

Do you really think that those two women playing golf want to be Moroccans? Do you really think is neccesary a referendum?
https://e00-elmundo.uecdn.es/assets/multimedia/imagenes/2014/10/25/14142301126154.jpg

[Gallop]

Practically the inhabitants of Ceuta and Melilla were basically Andalusians and the Moroccan community joined them later. We Spaniards do not have the slightest doubt that Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish.


https://static3.abc.es/media/200803/09/miss.jpg

https://mx.hola.com/famosos/especiales/missespana2008/votacion/images/melilla1-a.jpg

https://www.hoymagazine.es/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IMG_20170528_175447-e1496102797745-1.jpg

https://static2.diariosur.es/www/pre2017/multimedia/prensa/noticias/200708/20/fotos/011D1ME-111-P2_1.jpg

https://www.melillahoy.es/fotos/2041/FOTO_PRIMERA_MISS_dd_thumb_380.jpg

https://elpueblodeceuta.es/upload/images/08_2019/3474_web-candidata-ceuta.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/IEpUzruBRATuqmrz5l7SifoFuPi3eTJMXnkAW9k5TkYQds-E9JZ_MRwUDzSrmnoI-djbXA1wEc6m3xSda1OTZcjl4fDfM2zpEpT3RSNgMZvEW_f_rw

https://elpueblodeceuta.es/upload/img/periodico/img_5083.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

The dirtiest, I'am not sure. You haven't algerians in spain?

I think we have Algerians same than you have Moroccans. Ie yes we have a few of them but basically the North African immigration here is from Morocco, unfortunately.

[Aldaris]

There are no big problems between Morocco and Spain
Spain benefits from the fishing grounds in Morocco and the wealth of the Sahara, and there is good trade exchange between the two countries
The Spanish party wants to win some political matters and as it knows that the socialist parties in Spain have always had a good relationship with Morocco

You are viewing this issue solely through the large-scale geopolitical lens as though that was any relevant. Common people are fed up with them because they are out of the scale when it comes to criminality rates. Spain isn't there for taking responsibility of Morocco's garbage.

[Gota_type_]

IMHO, I really dont care about Ceuta and Melila, its not my land anyway, but I can understand both claims, however, Spain also wants Gibraltar back, dont they? Then, how to dismiss Moroccan claims? Not taken any sides here, but these claims are quite hilarious when you think about it..

It is absolutely different. Ceuta and Melilla have never ever been Moroccoans or part of any part of anything related to actual Morocco. It have been Spanish for 500 years and previously Portuguese for several centuries. So, Morocco has nothing to do with Ceuta and Melilla. Gibraltar is technically an ex-colony that is subject to be decolonized by UN conventions. It is like Hong-Kong which already was decolonized. Gibraltar was robbed to Spain and the native population (Spaniards) were kicked out (just because of stupid treaties of 300 years ago). So, Gibraltar has everything linked with Spain. Even in cities close to Gibraltar reside the descendants of the same families that inhabited Gibraltar until 1700. And Gibraltar is destroying economic industry in many áreas of Europa since it is a tax haven: 30.000 companies registered for 20.000 inhabitants does not make you think anything?? And they have been robbing us illegitimely: appropiating land and waters that they did not have right for them (as written in the Utrech Treaty).

So, don´t mistake situations. They are totally opposite.

[Suinthila]

After Morocco succeeded to take back his Sahara, its PM said that Ceuta and Melilla are now priorities and moroccan territories and that they will be taken back sooner or later. after these claims, Spain summoned the Moroccan ambassador and of course the conservative sphere reacted :

https://i.imgur.com/Plz9GrO.png

if you speak spanish or arabic : https://twitter.com/vox_es/status/1341079258861596672?s=20

the president of this party Santiago Abascal also reacted saying these cities were spanish even before Morocco existed (:rotfl:) :

https://i.imgur.com/F4m09on.png


A Spanish MEP called on the EU to defend his country "in the face of Moroccan aggression in Melilla".

José Ramón Bauzá, of the Ciudadanos Party, said that the EU must "give Spain the same support that Greece and Cyprus receive in the face of Turkish aggression".

https://i.imgur.com/hMGHVKp.jpg


Of course Spain already lost its fight for the independence of the Sahara :

It should be recalled that Spain had also denounced the "unilateralism" of the United States on the recognition of the Sahara.

The MAE had bet on Biden to revise Trump's decision, it said:
"It will be up to him (Joe Biden) to assess the situation."


let's applaud Morocco's rise :

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2XhfQ8oCkm1Ts4/giphy.gif


LOL

[Gota_type_]

Have you seen the video from yesterday where a few Moroccans hit to an autistic teen in Catalonia?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGEDQrrcoM8

Moroccans are the dirtiest beings in the history of mankind, that is a fact.

Yes, they should be charged for aggravated crime and also with racism but it is obvious since they are brown scum that the "racism" aggravant is not going to be used against them. It is only against natives so they can control us in our rightfull right to defend our nation, culture, and people.

But I am not sure if they were moroccoans or dominicans. Anyways, almost the same scum. We should be able to trace what politician allowed these scum to illegally enter in Spain, or give them the citizenship and make him subsidiary reponsable for the harm these moroccoans or dominicans have done. And all of them deported (with all their families).

The Reyes Católicos were wise when kicking out the jews and muslims. They not only kicked them but made them take their belongings and had to sell their houses, so they had no link with Spain in the future. With this, the expelled will never think again in comming back since they have no house, no Jobs, no links with Spain. We should do the same. Any inmigrant commits a crime---->all his family is also deported. With this we are giving a message for future crimes of inmigrants, so they can think twice if they want to commit a new crime knowing that their family will be affected. And their family will give a proper education to their offspring, since many moroccoans are such scum that they even applaud when moroccoans hit Spanish kids or even rape Spanish women ("they deserve it, for Allah, they are sluts").

I would save the life of 1 rat instead of the lives of the 2 million moroccoans that live here. At least the rat does not make problems to us.

[Gota_type_]

I have indirectly read what the moor Hamilcar wrote in that message. As a moro he is he does not understand international law or historical rights. He says that "now it is the turn for Morocco to regain Ceuta and Melilla as moroccoan territories they were". This moro, that is supossed to be from the most educated of the moros of north-africa (since he speaks English and he thinks he is decent), is defending that a country can take whatever he wants, be it Spanish waters, be it the Sahara, be it Ceuta and Melilla (which never were moroccoan and have been built by Spain in the last 500 years). So, summing it up: all moroccoans are scum and are a problema for any rational mind or country. They are savages that don´t want to take responsability in what they do. And we have to put up with millions of them in Europa while they are insulting us or appropiating our lands. We should develop the nuclear bomb (we already had it in 1960-70) like France, so these retards from Morocco know it in advance before they do whatever they like. As a disuasory method.



He (Hamilcar from apricity) is even appropiating other people´s culture. He is a moroccoan and Hamilcar was a phoenician born in Cartago that came from a family from Libia. And even more Hamilcar wife was "Spaniard". And he was killed by Spaniards in Elche in the 2nd Punic War. So, you moroccoan Hamilcar, you have ZERO to do with Hamilcar, stop appropiating cultures that don´t belong to you. You are probably an ugly moor, 10-20% subsaharan, while Hamilcar was a phoenician 100% caucasoid with direct links to Europa, by DNA and culture. Even Hannibal, who was 50% Spanish when going to defeat the Romans used a 60-70% Spanish army (especially the 6000 honderos from Islas Baleares). That is why he was succesful: because he had Spaniards as his troops. His teacher was a spartan (greek) noble. Put me a negative again, ignorant.


"Aníbal Barca nació probablemente en Cartago en el año 247 a. C. Era el hijo mayor del general Amílcar Barca y de su mujer ibérica.16​17​ Aunque «Barca» no era un apellido, sino un apelativo (de barqä, "rayo" en lengua púnica), fue adoptado como tal por sus hijos.18​ Los historiadores designan a la familia de Amílcar con el nombre de Bárcidas, a fin de evitar la confusión con otras familias cartaginesas con los mismos nombres (Aníbal, Asdrúbal, Amílcar, Magón, etc.).

Sobre la educación de Aníbal es poco lo recogido por los autores grecorromanos. Se sabe que aprendió de un preceptor espartano, llamado Sosilos, las letras griegas,19​ la historia de Alejandro Magno y el arte de la guerra. Así adquirió el modo de razonamiento y de acción que los griegos llamaban «métis», fundado en la inteligencia y la astucia.
"Aníbal Barca nació probablemente en Cartago en el año 247 a. C. Era el hijo mayor del general Amílcar Barca y de su mujer ibérica.16​17​ Aunque «Barca» no era un apellido, sino un apelativo (de barqä, "rayo" en lengua púnica), fue adoptado como tal por sus hijos.18​ Los historiadores designan a la familia de Amílcar con el nombre de Bárcidas, a fin de evitar la confusión con otras familias cartaginesas con los mismos nombres (Aníbal, Asdrúbal, Amílcar, Magón, etc.).

Sobre la educación de Aníbal es poco lo recogido por los autores grecorromanos. Se sabe que aprendió de un preceptor espartano, llamado Sosilos, las letras griegas,19​ la historia de Alejandro Magno y el arte de la guerra. Así adquirió el modo de razonamiento y de acción que los griegos llamaban «métis», fundado en la inteligencia y la astucia.
"

"https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C3%ADlcar_Barca
Origen​[editar]

Nacido en Cartago, posiblemente originario de una familia aristocrática cartaginesa3​ de Cirene (actual Libia) emigrada a Cartago.4​ La tradición habla de que la familia descendía directamente de Dido (Elisa), fundadora de la ciudad púnica según la mitología cartaginesa. En el 247 a.C, a la edad de 28 años, asume el mando de las tropas cartaginesas en Sicilia durante la primera guerra púnica contra Roma.

Fundador de la dinastía Bárcida​[editar]

Amílcar (o ������������, Hmlqrt, en púnico «hermano de Melqart», dios de los fenicios que los cartagineses denominarían Baal), es el fundador de la estirpe de los Bárcidas (de ������, Barqa o Baraq, «rayo, fulgor»), una serie de generales y hombres de estado al servicio de Cartago. Héroe de la primera guerra púnica, de la Guerra de los Mercenarios y padre del célebre Aníbal -el Bárcida que alcanzaría el cénit de la dinastía durante la segunda guerra púnica-. También es conocido como gobernante de la Iberia cartaginesa y como posible fundador de varias ciudades españolas como la capital de la Iberia Púnica Qart Hadsht (Cartagena), Alicante (Akra Leuké) o Barcelona.5​
"




So, ugly moor, stop appropiating cultures. You are not phoenician, not from Carthago, not from Lybia, and not White or 100% caucasoid as Hamilcar was.

[Lozano]

Yes, they should be charged for aggravated crime and also with racism but it is obvious since they are brown scum that the "racism" aggravant is not going to be used against them. It is only against natives so they can control us in our rightfull right to defend our nation, culture, and people.

But I am not sure if they were moroccoans or dominicans. Anyways, almost the same scum. We should be able to trace what politician allowed these scum to illegally enter in Spain, or give them the citizenship and make him subsidiary reponsable for the harm these moroccoans or dominicans have done. And all of them deported (with all their families).


Apart of dominicans which other latin american group in Spain causes more trouble?

[Cristiano viejo]

Apart of dominicans which other latin american group in Spain causes more trouble?

Colombians.

[Alexandro]

Apart of dominicans which other latin american group in Spain causes more trouble?

Not all of them obviously, but a lot of the Cubans that came after the "special period" cause trouble.

The majority of the Cubans coming after 1990 ish or so have already spent most of their lives living under communism and have adapted to hustling to survive in Cuba. Unfortunately this is not something you can just switch off, and they bring that mentality to Spain.

[Cristiano viejo]

Not all of them obviously, but a lot of the Cubans that came after the "special period" cause trouble.

Cubans?? you serious?? do you believe seriously Cubans (how many of them there are in Spain??) cause more troubles than Colombians or Ecuadorians, who overcome them 10:1 or even more??

[Alexandro]

Cubans?? you serious?? do you believe seriously Cubans (how many of them there are in Spain??) cause more troubles than Colombians or Ecuadorians, who overcome them 10:1 or even more??

No, I don't think Cubans cause more problems than Colombians or Ecuadorians, was just pointing them out since I've had some bad experiences with them in the past.

[Cristiano viejo]

No, I don't think Cubans cause more problems than Colombians or Ecuadorians, was just pointing them out since I've had some bad experiences with them in the past.

Interesting. Were they blacks, true?

[Alexandro]

Interesting. Were they blacks, true?

Yup.

[Cristiano viejo]

Yup.

Few months ago one of them was stabbed and killed by a Bolivian in Madrid
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?334768-Great-video-Cuban-stabbed-and-killed-by-Bolivian-in-Madrid-Immigration-is-good-G%D1EEEE

[Gota_type_]

Apart of dominicans which other latin american group in Spain causes more trouble?

Almost all non-White groups. Latin Kings are ecuatorianos. Dominican make a lot of trouble. Northafricans are the worst scum on Earth. Even pakistaníes or afganos are robbers in Barcelona to international tourists. And well, romanians while being "White" (a rare kind of White most of them) are also well known for robberies, assaults, and many other crimes. I don´t know why so many romanians are making trouble in Europe. They make a lot of trouble in Spain. But the worst, moroccoans. They are worst than hyenas. I would prefer a hyena as a pet than a moroccoan even if he (the moroccoan, not the hyena) speaks English.

[Lozano]

Cubans?? you serious?? do you believe seriously Cubans (how many of them there are in Spain??) cause more troubles than Colombians or Ecuadorians, who overcome them 10:1 or even more??

Ecuadorians are more troublemakers here in America I beleive in Spain too.
Most of them create and conform ilegal "latino" street bands in Medellin, what about Spain?.

And probably to the country that exports more white people to Spain between Colombia, Ecuador, DR and Peru (Which are the most numerous in Spain), must be undoubtly the first one.

[Lozano]

Not all of them obviously, but a lot of the Cubans that came after the "special period" cause trouble.

The Cuban I see over here in my city are few, and mostly half white Cubans, half Colombians. And none of them are trouble makers.

Such as Kiko Alonso american football player for example.

[Lozano]

Almost all non-White groups. Latin Kings are ecuatorianos. Dominican make a lot of trouble. Northafricans are the worst scum on Earth. Even pakistaníes or afganos are robbers in Barcelona to international tourists. And well, romanians while being "White" (a rare kind of White most of them) are also well known for robberies, assaults, and many other crimes. I don´t know why so many romanians are making trouble in Europe. They make a lot of trouble in Spain. But the worst, moroccoans. They are worst than hyenas. I would prefer a hyena as a pet than a moroccoan even if he (the moroccoan, not the hyena) speaks English.

Interesting how the pattern of "non-white people cause most trouble", repeats and repeats again here and there and south america is no exception.

Sadly many Morrocan/MENA group of people are flying over here but I can't say they cause trouble, venezuelans youngs here behave like morrocans in Spain.

[Cristiano viejo]

Ecuadorians are more troublemakers here in America I beleive in Spain too.
Most of them create and conform ilegal "latino" street bands in Medellin, what about Spain?.

And probably to the country that exports more white people to Spain between Colombia, Ecuador, DR and Peru (Which are the most numerous in Spain), must be undoubtly the first one.

I never met a white Colombian although being sincere I only have seen Colombians on tv (probably I have crossed with many in streets but I could not know if they were Colombians or Chileans/Peruvians/Brazilians etc)

Ecuadorians make gangs, yes, but so Colombians do and overall, the latter are involved in TONS OF CRIMES more (drug traffick, rapes, thefts, fights, extortion, fraud, etc etc).

[Hamilcar]

I have indirectly read what the moor Hamilcar wrote in that message. As a moro he is he does not understand international law or historical rights. He says that "now it is the turn for Morocco to regain Ceuta and Melilla as moroccoan territories they were". This moro, that is supossed to be from the most educated of the moros of north-africa (since he speaks English and he thinks he is decent), is defending that a country can take whatever he wants, be it Spanish waters, be it the Sahara, be it Ceuta and Melilla (which never were moroccoan and have been built by Spain in the last 500 years). So, summing it up: all moroccoans are scum and are a problema for any rational mind or country. They are savages that don´t want to take responsability in what they do. And we have to put up with millions of them in Europa while they are insulting us or appropiating our lands. We should develop the nuclear bomb (we already had it in 1960-70) like France, so these retards from Morocco know it in advance before they do whatever they like. As a disuasory method.



[I]He (Hamilcar from apricity) is even appropiating other people´s culture. He is a moroccoan and Hamilcar was a phoenician born in Cartago that came from a family from Libia. And even more Hamilcar wife was "Spaniard". And he was killed by Spaniards in Elche in the 2nd Punic War. So, you moroccoan Hamilcar, you have ZERO to do with Hamilcar, stop appropiating cultures that don´t belong to you. You are probably an ugly moor, 10-20% subsaharan, while Hamilcar was a phoenician 100% caucasoid with direct links to Europa, by DNA and culture. Even Hannibal, who was 50% Spanish when going to defeat the Romans used a 60-70% Spanish army (especially the 6000 honderos from Islas Baleares). That is why he was succesful: because he had Spaniards as his troops. His teacher was a spartan (greek) noble. Put me a negative again, ignorant.



So, ugly moor, stop appropiating cultures. You are not phoenician, not from Carthago, not from Lybia, and not White or 100% caucasoid as Hamilcar was.


First of all it's technically impossible that all my ancestors came from the same region in Morocco especially if we go back as far as the carthaginian period. Moreover no, Hamilcar was not phoenician, as you said it yourself he was born in Libya (cyrenaica region which was not settled by phoenicians) and is part of the Barcid family. Moreover you're confused, Hamilcar didn't have a spanish wife but only his son Hannibal had an iberian wife called Imilce (she was culturally punicized and not from a celtiberian/iberian background) so no Hannibal was not half spanish.

Why are you trying to stole north africa's legacy by saying he had links to europa ? No sorry, he submitted a good part of Hispania and that's it. Genetically punics had nothing to do with iberians not even culturally.


And no the army of Hannibal was not composed of 60-70% of iberians. Most of his soldiers and generals were North Africans :


The importance of the Numidian cavalry in the 3rd century or so: most of the 6000 riders who arrived in Italy after Hannibal were precisely Numidians

Carthage ou empire de la mer de François decret, p83


Thus, of the 20,000 infantry who arrived in the Po Plain in late 218, 12,000 were Libyans (Afri)

Carthage ou empire de la mer, François Decret, p83


To maintain the Punic order in Hispania, he brought 15,000 Libyan soldiers from Africa whom he entrusted to his brother Hasdrubal

Yann le bohec , Histoire militaire des guerres puniques, p133


In fact, the heart of the Carthaginian military power will always be constituted by the Libyans populating the interior of the Carthaginian state and, recently, by the Iberians of the territory administered by the Barcids in Spain, as well as by the supplements provided by the Phoenician cities of Africa, like Utica or Hadrumète. These units, which form the bulk of the infantry, constitute the most stable and reliable personnel of the Punic army. In fact, they helped to stabilize the Punic forces in the face of the versatility of the mercenaries, even of the auxiliaries - Gallic in particular - or the inexperience of the new recruits. They played a role of framing and maintaining the discipline essential for a workforce as variegated as Hannibal's army. Real relay of the strategist on the ground, this corps, backbone of the infantry, will play throughout Hannibal's campaign a tactical role of primary importance.

Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, p310, Khaled Melliti



This desire for integration can be seen in the way in which Hannibal Barca involved African leaders in the military campaign of the Second Punic War in functions rarely - or even never - achieved before. [...] More eloquent is the situation of a cadre of Hannibal's army, the famous Muttines. Presented as a pupil of the Barcide military school, which amounts to saying that he evolved young, or very young, in the entourage of the Punic strategist, Muttines comes from the Libyphenic notability of which one evokes the physical and legal proximity with the Carthaginians. It is in this capacity, moreover, that he was able to integrate the Barcid military formation, then the state Major Hannibal His personal merit then allowed him to be given a command in Sicily, proof that military promotion was a reality for Africans, in the Barcid army at least.

Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, p311, Khaled Melliti


the bronze table of Cape Lacinion also tells us about the numbers left at the disposal of Asdrubal Barca, appointed by his older brother to command Punic Spain: a fleet of 50 quinquérèmes, 2 quadrirèmes and 5 trirèmes; a cavalry of 2550 elements composed, in majority, of Numidians, Moors, but also Libyphenicians, and an infantry comprising 11,850 Africans, 300 Ligurians and 500 Balearics.

Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, p310, Khaled Melliti


The close relations maintained between the Punic and Numidian spheres are finally illustrated by the numerous testimonies of interbreeding: matrimonial relations between the Punic and Numidian aristocracies were frequent, as were mixed marriages between peoples - genealogies indicated on neopunic inscriptions present names of Libyan and Punic origin which mix. As we can see, the links between Carthage and its hinterland were important. How can we still doubt this when we consider the power reached by the African metropolis in the western Mediterranean? Could it have maintained its hegemony there and faced the great powers of the time without being able to dispose of the human and economic resources of North-East Africa, as well as a large territorial base? It is a fact that most of the Punic troops were made up of African elements, whether Libyan or Numidian, or that African populations colonized territories directly controlled by Carthage in the Mediterranean islands or in Iberia.

Carthage, histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, Khaled Melliti, 2016, p74-75


Next time refrain from talking about things you don't know. Thanks for embarassing yourself again :thumb001:

[Lozano]

I never met a white Colombian although being sincere I only have seen Colombians on tv (probably I have crossed with many in streets but I could not know if they were Colombians or Chileans/Peruvians/Brazilians etc)

Por eso le digo esque no me imagino a España y a europea en general con ecuatorianos blancos como es el caso de estos colombianos residentes



https://youtu.be/R4U_zorRm-c


https://youtu.be/vPfjcZKpf0A


https://youtu.be/sNmVVuKITtA


https://youtu.be/29-bXWpFPc4


https://youtu.be/yicONzPvinE


https://youtu.be/HM9O87tBm_o


https://youtu.be/F6q6ki2L8-w

Francia

min 14:20

https://youtu.be/5fODa_LnyLQ


https://youtu.be/PLPadoYdIzQ


https://youtu.be/oa5HXjMzhH8



Ecuadorians make gangs, yes, but so Colombians do and overall, the latter are involved in TONS OF CRIMES more (drug traffick, rapes, thefts, fights, extortion, fraud, etc etc).

El caso muy muy conocido que incluso salio en la tv colombiana fue el de un colombiano en españa que asesino a una tal Marta Calvo, que puse el ejemplo en otro thread.

[Gota_type_]

El caso muy muy conocido que incluso salio en la tv colombiana fue el de un colombiano en españa que asesino a una tal Marta Calvo, que puse el ejemplo en otro thread.

De este me acuerdo, creo que la violó, y decapitó y no sé qué más. Y q la chica era hija de una Guardia Civil. Manda cojones. Cuidar toda tu vida a tu hija para que venga un hijo de puta que no debería estar aquí pues seguro q entro como falso turista, y torture y decapite a tu hija, que son noticias que solo son 1 entre 1 millón en España.


Y estáis recibiendo moros/Menas en Colombia?? En serio, no sé qué coño pintan en AMérica pero intentad evitarlo. En cuanto que se meten unos pocos, en pocos años tendréis 100 veces más pues van abriendo paso, reagrupando a familias, y luego pidiendo mezquitas,y sus mierdas varias. Es peor que el cáncer los moros. Mucho peor. Destruyen personas y países al completo.

[Lozano]

De este me acuerdo, creo que la violó, y decapitó y no sé qué más. Y q la chica era hija de una Guardia Civil. Manda cojones. Cuidar toda tu vida a tu hija para que venga un hijo de puta que no debería estar aquí pues seguro q entro como falso turista, y torture y decapite a tu hija, que son noticias que solo son 1 entre 1 millón en España.

Y estáis recibiendo moros/Menas en Colombia?? En serio, no sé qué coño pintan en AMérica pero intentad evitarlo. En cuanto que se meten unos pocos, en pocos años tendréis 100 veces más pues van abriendo paso, reagrupando a familias, y luego pidiendo mezquitas,y sus mierdas varias. Es peor que el cáncer los moros. Mucho peor. Destruyen personas y países al completo.

Para colmo el malparido ese, aunque mestizo, lucia mas bien tirando a blanco en las fotos que mostraban, no me imagino los no-blancos (por tanto menos adaptados) el historial que deben tener...

En cuanto a lo segundo, pasa que en Colombia la gente es muy "inmigrant friendly" y no ven el porque rechazar gente de cualquier raza en busca de oportunidades, esto de aqui a unos años será popurri de razas increible.

Hubo y hay mucha inmigracion árabe, pero por suerte mas del medio oriente (Líbano y Siria) que de marruecos. Unos optaron por castellanizar sus apelidos y mezclarse con gente local (Como es el caso de los padres Andres Soleibe) y otros optaron por no desquitarse de sus costumbre, montar sus mezquitas y sus mierdas anticatolicas y radicales... Algunos otros logran sobresalir limpiamente como el tal médico Salomon Hakim. Por suerte un colombiano cristiano promedio odia y rechaza al musulmán desde siempre, es algo que dejo impregnado el español en nuestro carácter en su gran paso conquistadpr hacia nuestras tierras.

Pero en general ya vez... con los venezolanos tenemos suficiente...Gente que se dedican a robar niños colombianos para vender sus órganos. Es tan bárbaro que ni siquiera diria que un marroquí llega a hacer cosas similares en España

[Gota_type_]

Para colmo el malparido ese, aunque mestizo, lucia mas bien tirando a blanco en las fotos que mostraban, no me imagino los no-blancos (por tanto menos adaptados) el historial que deben tener...

En cuanto a lo segundo, pasa que en Colombia la gente es muy "inmigrant friendly" y no ven el porque rechazar gente de cualquier raza en busca de oportunidades, esto de aqui a unos años será popurri de razas increible.

Hubo y hay mucha inmigracion árabe, pero por suerte mas del medio oriente (Líbano y Siria) que de marruecos. Unos optaron por castellinizar sus apelidos y mezclarse con gente local (Como es el caso de los padres Andres Soleibe) y otros optaron por no desquitarse de sus costumbre, montar sus mezquitas y sus mierdas anticatolicas y radicales... Algunos otros logran sobresalir limpiamente como el tal médico Salomon Hakim. Por suerte un colombiano cristiano promedio odia y rechaza al musulmán desde siempre, es algo que dejo impregnado el español en nuestro carácter en su gran paso conquistadpr hacia nuestras tierras.

Pero en general ya vez... con los venezolanos tenemos suficiente...Gente que se dedican a robar niños colombianos para vender sus órganos. Es tan bárbaro que ni siquiera diria que un marroquí llega a hacer cosas similares en España

Esto es real?? Prefiero q no me pongas ninguna noticia sobre ello, y espero que haya sido 1-2 casos en 10 años. Quien hace eso merece ser torturado durante 1 mes, desmembrado y luego fusilado. No son seres humanos y no tienen que vivir entre nosotros.

Sí sabía lo de q había un pequeño porcentaje de árabes en América Latina, sobre todo libios, y sirios (Carlos Menem era uno de ellos o el más rico de México), pero espero que impidáis la llegada de magrebíes pues son la peor basura del planeta con diferencia. Porque allá donde van siempre convierten en basura el lugar, basura a todos los niveles: delincuencia de todo tipo, problemas sociales y de convivencia, etc. Y luego se van extendiendo como un cáncer. Son una bomba biológica real.

Y no confíes en eso de que los españoles somos muy anti-moros, que lo somos la gran mayoría, el problema es la basura política, que siempre hará lo que menos problema mental les provoque. Es decir, ante el problema de aceptar o no la llegada de moros y para evitar el problema harán lo más fácil: dejarles entrar, y luego ya se encargarán de apelar a los derechos humanos y demás sandeces que utilizan exclusivamente para engañar a la sociedad (a los q se dejan engañar). Así que por mucho q los españoles odiemos a los moros, si el 95% de los políticos de tu país son basura, los moros terminarán entrando. Como mucho perderán unos cuantos cientos de miles de votos, pero en 4-5 años, eso está olvidado y les vuelven a votar a los mismos, como retrasados que son la mayoría.

Y sí, ese colombiano q mató a la española parecía mestizo o castizo. Obviamente casos excepcionales de gente mayoritariamente blanca que comete estas burradas también los hay, pero son mayoría los q suelen ser mestizos o mulatos los q provocan la delincuencia. En todos los lados hay delincuencia, hasta en Japón o Noruega, lo que importa es la proporción, y entre blancos es negligible. Si importamos el Magreb, medio Ecuador, y Rep. Dominicana, entonces el % de delincuencia se multiplica por varios enteros.

[Ruggery]

Para colmo el malparido ese, aunque mestizo, lucia mas bien tirando a blanco en las fotos que mostraban, no me imagino los no-blancos (por tanto menos adaptados) el historial que deben tener...

En cuanto a lo segundo, pasa que en Colombia la gente es muy "inmigrant friendly" y no ven el porque rechazar gente de cualquier raza en busca de oportunidades, esto de aqui a unos años será popurri de razas increible.

Hubo y hay mucha inmigracion árabe, pero por suerte mas del medio oriente (Líbano y Siria) que de marruecos. Unos optaron por castellanizar sus apelidos y mezclarse con gente local (Como es el caso de los padres Andres Soleibe) y otros optaron por no desquitarse de sus costumbre, montar sus mezquitas y sus mierdas anticatolicas y radicales... Algunos otros logran sobresalir limpiamente como el tal médico Salomon Hakim. Por suerte un colombiano cristiano promedio odia y rechaza al musulmán desde siempre, es algo que dejo impregnado el español en nuestro carácter en su gran paso conquistadpr hacia nuestras tierras.

Pero en general ya vez... con los venezolanos tenemos suficiente...Gente que se dedican a robar niños colombianos para vender sus órganos. Es tan bárbaro que ni siquiera diria que un marroquí llega a hacer cosas similares en España

Colombia tiene suerte de no tener una gran población de musulmanes imagínate aguantar a parte de los narcos y grupos paramilitares a los terroristas islámicos que atacan a la población.

[Incal]

Again, you can't be loyal to both countries the same way that you can love 2 or more wives equally hence why Polygamy is wrong.

THIS.

[Lozano]

Esto es real?? Prefiero q no me pongas ninguna noticia sobre ello, y espero que haya sido 1-2 casos en 10 años. Quien hace eso merece ser torturado durante 1 mes, desmembrado y luego fusilado. No son seres humanos y no tienen que vivir entre nosotros.

El trafico de órganos es una practica extendida entre gente de bajos recursos, tristemente es algo muy poco documentado y difundido en las noticieros pero pasa y la gente lo sabe.
El rapto de niños se da mas para fines sexuales de pedofilia que para trafico de organos..., pero que obviamente para esto segundo ya se ha intentado y de hecho ya ha pasado, eso ni lo dudes.

Posteé un video anteriormente que resulto ser falso, donde lincharon a tres venezolanos por acusarles de haber hecho tal barbarie cuando no la hicieron. Venezolanos son mas del tipo de robarle a las señoras mayores, destruir negocios familiares, matarte a sangre fria simplemente por querer robarte un reloj o una bicicleta, robar joyerias, bancos, asaltar y masacrar buses de pedania, sicarios que prestan sus servicios por 10$... Eso si esta claro

Pero esque estas supestas acusaciones a venezolanos "sin sentido" no salen de la nada ni al aire, ni de cadenas falsas de whatsapp como dicen por ahi en internet. A cada rato se desaparecen niños gamines en comunas de barrios ultrapobres de Medellin y nadie vuleve a saber nada de ellos.Ya ha habido casos bien documentados como el de la venezolana robandose a una niña en el Yopal y no precisamente para hacer de cuidadora gratis, sino para esto mismo, confesada por ella misma. Hay varios mafias venezolanas que se dedican a trafico de organos ilegal y operan en el pais vecino y en el suyo.


Sí sabía lo de q había un pequeño porcentaje de árabes en América Latina, sobre todo libios, y sirios (Carlos Menem era uno de ellos o el más rico de México), pero espero que impidáis la llegada de magrebíes pues son la peor basura del planeta con diferencia. Porque allá donde van siempre convierten en basura el lugar, basura a todos los niveles: delincuencia de todo tipo, problemas sociales y de convivencia, etc. Y luego se van extendiendo como un cáncer. Son una bomba biológica real.

Y no confíes en eso de que los españoles somos muy anti-moros, que lo somos la gran mayoría, el problema es la basura política, que siempre hará lo que menos problema mental les provoque. Es decir, ante el problema de aceptar o no la llegada de moros y para evitar el problema harán lo más fácil: dejarles entrar, y luego ya se encargarán de apelar a los derechos humanos y demás sandeces que utilizan exclusivamente para engañar a la sociedad (a los q se dejan engañar). Así que por mucho q los españoles odiemos a los moros, si el 95% de los políticos de tu país son basura, los moros terminarán entrando. Como mucho perderán unos cuantos cientos de miles de votos, pero en 4-5 años, eso está olvidado y les vuelven a votar a los mismos, como retrasados que son la mayoría.

No más vi en otro thread el primer niño nacido este año 2021 en españa era musulmán...Que tristeza. también españa del interior mas pobre, como castilla la vieja, apenas se reproducen niños blancos españoles ya que supuestamente he leido que sale muy muy caro allá. Mientras que los salvajes maghrebies se reproducen como conejos y jovenes llegan en masa pudiendo repoblar esas zonas de baja natalidad, la verdad es que es bastante preocupante.
En America vamos con 50 años de retraso Aqui la mentalidad religiosa es extramadamente conservadora y católica sobretodo en pueblos rurales criollos del tipo de que si un musulmán se atreve a ir en contra de lo establecido o un magrebí y hace algun tipo de barberie simplemente los fusilan y al dia siguiente que eso pasa ves al que lo mató tomandose unas cervezitas en el bar sin preocupacion alguna.



Y sí, ese colombiano q mató a la española parecía mestizo o castizo. Obviamente casos excepcionales de gente mayoritariamente blanca que comete estas burradas también los hay, pero son mayoría los q suelen ser mestizos o mulatos los q provocan la delincuencia. En todos los lados hay delincuencia, hasta en Japón o Noruega, lo que importa es la proporción, y entre blancos es negligible. Si importamos el Magreb, medio Ecuador, y Rep. Dominicana, entonces el % de delincuencia se multiplica por varios enteros.


Exactamente... Esperate que lleguen venezolanos mestizos y indios en masa a españa y verás. Eso si va a ser una maldita batalla campal sumandole rumanos, bandas latinas, venecos, dominicanos, magrebíes, antifas de españa...

[Cristiano viejo]

No más vi en otro thread el primer niño nacido este año 2021 en españa era musulmán...Que tristeza. también españa del interior mas pobre, como castilla la vieja, apenas se reproducen niños blancos españoles ya que supuestamente he leido que sale muy muy caro allá. Mientras que los salvajes maghrebies se reproducen como conejos y jovenes llegan en masa pudiendo repoblar esas zonas de baja natalidad, la verdad es que es bastante preocupante.
Yo soy de Castilla la Vieja y eso de que apenas se reproducen niños españoles es mentira. Es decir se reproducen de la misma manera que en el resto de España: poco, vale, pero se reproducen.

Eso de que sale muy caro aquí no sé de dónde te lo sacas, Castilla y León no es precisamente de las regiones más pobres de España.
Y aquí apenas hay magrebíes, gracias a los Cielos.



Exactamente... Esperate que lleguen venezolanos mestizos y indios en masa a españa y verás jajajaja. Eso si va a ser una maldita batalla campal sumandole rumanos, bandas latinas, venecos, magrebíes, activistas de izquierda...
Pero si eso ya ocurre, hombre... y desde hace años.


Mucho animo y bendiciones @Gota_type y a todos los nacionalistas españoles de seguro sus ideas a la larga triunfaran y limpiaran el pais de basura.¿No eras tú el que celebraba la semana pasada toda mezcla de españoles con gente de tu raza, incluso con negros y moros? :rolleyes:

[zebruh]

If those places are in part of north africa they shouldn't mind. Its not spanish country.

[Lozano]

¿No eras tú el que celebraba la semana pasada toda mezcla de españoles con gente de tu raza, incluso con negros y moros? :rolleyes:

Vuelve a leer la primera question del thread que mencionas y mis comentarios. Buscame donde yo "celebraba y adoraba" tales hechos.

El tal "better for you to be prepared bcs this will be the next gen of your village", era algo que parece te sento demasiado mal.
Era en modo de burla utópica que se ve se te escapo y tomaste muy enserio cuando no deberias.

[gixajo]

Uno ya no sabe que pensar con cosas como esta:

https://www.defensa.com/espana/navantia-disenara-construira-patrullero-altura-para-marina-real

Supongo que pensarán que "la pela es la pela", luego les pasa como a los Venezolanos, mucha última tecnología y luego todo lo que compran no sirve de nada por falta de mantenimiento.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Uno ya no sabe que pensar con cosas como esta:

https://www.defensa.com/espana/navantia-disenara-construira-patrullero-altura-para-marina-real

Supongo que pensarán que "la pela es la pela", luego les pasa como a los Venezolanos, mucha última tecnología y luego todo lo que compran no sirve de nada por falta de mantenimiento.

Na realidade vender material bélico produzido em Espanha a Marrocos é uma estratégia militar interessante. Não só enchem os cofres às custas de Marrocos como em caso de confronto ou guerra será muito mais fácil aos serviços de inteligência militares Espanhóis sabotar o patrulheiro uma vez que foi construído por vocês, conhecem os pontos fracos e têm o know-how do software de navegação (e todo e qualquer material para a manutenção do mesmo teria de ser produzido em Espanha).

Isto é uma estratégia recorrente usada por vários países. A título de exemplo, durante a guerra entre o Irão e o Iraque nos anos 80 a maioria da força área Iraniana era constituída por caças F-14 Tomcat (fabricação americana) que o Irão havia adquirido ainda durante o antigo regime do Xá. Os Americanos decidiram apoiar os Iraquianos e como tal deixaram de fornecer a manutenção dos caças Iranianos o que deixou a força área Iraniana completamente vulnerável e obsoleta face aos ataques aéreos Iraquianos.

[gixajo]

Na realidade vender material bélico produzido em Espanha a Marrocos é uma estratégia militar interessante. Não só enchem os cofres às custas de Marrocos como em caso de confronto ou guerra será muito mais fácil aos serviços de inteligência militares Espanhóis sabotar o patrulheiro uma vez que foi construído por vocês, conhecem os pontos fracos e têm o know-how do software de navegação (e todo e qualquer material para a manutenção do mesmo teria de ser produzido em Espanha).

Isto é uma estratégia recorrente usada por vários países. A título de exemplo, durante a guerra entre o Irão e o Iraque nos anos 80 a maioria da força área Iraniana era constituída por caças F-14 Tomcat (fabricação americana) que o Irão havia adquirido ainda durante o antigo regime do Xá. Os Americanos decidiram apoiar os Iraquianos e como tal deixaram de fornecer a manutenção dos caças Iranianos o que deixou a força área Iraniana completamente vulnerável e obsoleta face aos ataques aéreos Iraquianos.
No estamos ni de lejos al mismo nivel que todos esos países en cuestión de industria armamentística, pero supongo que sí, el armamento es italiano y holandés, pero la gran parte de los sistemas electrónicos , software, contramedidas electrónicas, sistemas de comunicación y la suite de combate suele ser española, supongo que lo mínimo que harán será dejar abierta la posibilidad de si es necesario, tener localizado el barco con precisión.

Es decir, la "suite de combate", el software de los sistemas defensivos y de ataque, suele ser una versión customizable a gusto del cliente basada en el SCOMBA que tienen los buques de la Armada, supongo que las versiones de exportación tendrán todas una "backdoor".

En este caso, no es más que un patrullero de altura, no es el tipo de unidad naval que pueda tener un papel determinante en un conflicto bélico, tiene equipos avanzados pero tampoco un armamento que pueda ir más allá de asustar pesqueros.

Lo que sí llama la atención es que da la impresión de que compran sin un plan preconcebido, acumulan material de muy diferentes tecnologías y países, lo que complica muchísimo la cadena logística.

Comprar material de dos fuentes diferentes, para que en caso de que uno te corte el suministro de repuestos y municiones etc , puedas al menos recurrir al otro proveedor, es algo inteligente y previsor, pero de un par de proveedores, no de decenas diferentes.

[Gota_type_]

No estamos ni de lejos al mismo nivel que todos esos países en cuestión de industria armamentística, pero supongo que sí, el armamento es italiano y holandés, pero la gran parte de los sistemas electrónicos , software, contramedidas electrónicas, sistemas de comunicación y la suite de combate suele ser española, supongo que lo mínimo que harán será dejar abierta la posibilidad de si es necesario, tener localizado el barco con precisión.

Es decir, la "suite de combate", el software de los sistemas defensivos y de ataque, suele ser una versión customizable a gusto del cliente basada en el SCOMBA que tienen los buques de la Armada, supongo que las versiones de exportación tendrán todas una "backdoor".

En este caso, no es más que un patrullero de altura, no es el tipo de unidad naval que pueda tener un papel determinante en un conflicto bélico, tiene equipos avanzados pero tampoco un armamento que pueda ir más allá de asustar pesqueros.

Lo que sí llama la atención es que da la impresión de que compran sin un plan preconcebido, acumulan material de muy diferentes tecnologías y países, lo que complica muchísimo la cadena logística.

Comprar material de dos fuentes diferentes, para que en caso de que uno te corte el suministro de repuestos y municiones etc , puedas al menos recurrir al otro proveedor, es algo inteligente y previsor, pero de un par de proveedores, no de decenas diferentes.

Marruecos podrá comprar esa patrullera por tontos o.....para despistar y que nos confiemos en que se dejan controlar. Es decir, para que miremos a otro lado mientras ellos siguen a lo suyo contra nosotros. Muchos moros ya estudian Ingenierías en Francia o UK y luego son contratados en Marruecos a cuerpo de rey para precisamente anular esos posibles sistemas de seguimiento. Si sumamos que los franceses han entrenado a los pilotos marroquíes de aviones de combate desde hace décadas y que Marruecos (con dinero de la UE) está comprando lo mejor de lo mejor, tenemos un problema porque nosotros somos precisamente lo contrario en materia armamentística: comprar lo mínimo, lo más barato, y ser solidarios con el vecino del sur.

[Gredos]

If those places are in part of north africa they shouldn't mind. Its not spanish country.

Nobody in Spain gives a shit about Ceuta and Melilla. Not even the authorities that are obliged to defend their integrity

The problem is that these cities and their inhabitants acquired the right to be Spanish and European citizens, and I don't think they are willing to renounce that right because "Its not spanish country"

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

No estamos ni de lejos al mismo nivel que todos esos países en cuestión de industria armamentística, pero supongo que sí, el armamento es italiano y holandés, pero la gran parte de los sistemas electrónicos , software, contramedidas electrónicas, sistemas de comunicación y la suite de combate suele ser española, supongo que lo mínimo que harán será dejar abierta la posibilidad de si es necesario, tener localizado el barco con precisión.

Es decir, la "suite de combate", el software de los sistemas defensivos y de ataque, suele ser una versión customizable a gusto del cliente basada en el SCOMBA que tienen los buques de la Armada, supongo que las versiones de exportación tendrán todas una "backdoor".

En este caso, no es más que un patrullero de altura, no es el tipo de unidad naval que pueda tener un papel determinante en un conflicto bélico, tiene equipos avanzados pero tampoco un armamento que pueda ir más allá de asustar pesqueros.

Lo que sí llama la atención es que da la impresión de que compran sin un plan preconcebido, acumulan material de muy diferentes tecnologías y países, lo que complica muchísimo la cadena logística.

Comprar material de dos fuentes diferentes, para que en caso de que uno te corte el suministro de repuestos y municiones etc , puedas al menos recurrir al otro proveedor, es algo inteligente y previsor, pero de un par de proveedores, no de decenas diferentes.

A Itália e Holanda são membros da OTAN pelo que também seria improvável favorecerem Marrocos em detrimento de Espanha numa situação mais crítica.

Como muitos países do terceiro mundo, Marrocos investe desmesuradamente nas forças armadas mas enganam-se os que pensem que o fazem por outros motivos que não sejam a manutenção do governo central e monarquia. Interesses domésticos basicamente. Em países como Marrocos onde a maioria da população vive na miséria é importante manter um exército moderno e as forças armadas satisfeitas. Aprenderam com a Primavera Árabe que para evitar insurgências e golpes de estado é preciso que o exército tenha muito a perder com uma eventual mudança de regime.

[Ryujin]

I doubt the people of Melilla and Ceuta want to join a country where they would be brutally murdered the same way Scandinavian tourists were in Morocco.

Claiming a territory where the majority of the population does not want you is baseless.

Anyways; politicians make such claims for populist entertainment and self-satisfaction. The same way Iran has been claiming to wipe out Israel for 40 years. It shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Cristiano viejo]

I doubt the people of Melilla and Ceuta want to join a country where they would be brutally murdered the same way Scandinavian tourists were in Morocco.

Claiming a territory where the majority of the population does not want you is baseless.

Anyways; politicians make such claims for populist entertainment and self-satisfaction. The same way Iran has been claiming to wipe out Israel for 40 years. It shouldn't be taken seriously.

I agree but you have to know the half of their populations is Muslim. Moroccans started to immigrate to Ceuta and Melilla after the death of our General Franco in 70s.

[zebruh]

Nobody in Spain gives a shit about Ceuta and Melilla. Not even the authorities that are obliged to defend their integrity

The problem is that these cities and their inhabitants acquired the right to be Spanish and European citizens, and I don't think they are willing to renounce that right because "Its not spanish country"Thats not what the OP posts suggest.
Suggest spaniards are fighting to keep them as part of spain.

[Cristiano viejo]

Thats not what the OP posts suggest.
Suggest spaniards are fighting to keep them as part of spain.

:rotfl:

[Hamilcar]

I doubt the people of Melilla and Ceuta want to join a country where they would be brutally murdered the same way Scandinavian tourists were in Morocco.

Claiming a territory where the majority of the population does not want you is baseless.

Anyways; politicians make such claims for populist entertainment and self-satisfaction. The same way Iran has been claiming to wipe out Israel for 40 years. It shouldn't be taken seriously.


Stop with generalizations, Morocco arrested more than 40 terrorist cells since 2015 ( https://wsimag.com/economy-and-politics/22813-morocco-intelligence-against-terrorism ) and is one of the best ally of european countries when it comes to counter-terrorism :

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2015/12/174048/moroccan-intelligence-services-help-spain-thwart-terrorist-attack-in-barcelona/
https://northafricapost.com/45042-france-calls-on-morocco-to-help-it-fight-terrorism.html
https://www.africanews.com/2016/03/01/terrorism-belgium-seeks-collaboration-with-morocco/
https://thebestofafrica.org/content/morocco-counterterrorism-efforts


Moreover the murder of these two innocent women really shocked moroccans and they showed their support as any respectable people should do :


https://i.imgur.com/pMLxMoO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8VrXbVQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/GYD7vIp.jpg


https://telquel.ma/2018/12/22/des-cimes-de-latlas-a-rabat-le-maroc-rend-hommage-aux-victimes_1623082

Also according International SOS, Morocco is as safe as most european countries and more safe than your country too, so people from ceuta and Melilla have more chance to die in turkey than Morocco :

https://i.imgur.com/LEhT3c0.png

https://www.travelriskmap.com/#/planner/map/security


And it has nothing to do with "populist entertainment", Morocco just took back its Sahara now their priorities are these two enclaves and inhabitants of ceuta/melilla have the spanish nationality so they can freely go back to mainland Spain.

[Lozano]

Also according International SOS, Morocco is as safe as most european countries and more safe than your country too, so people from ceuta and Melilla have more chance to die in turkey than Morocco :

https://i.imgur.com/LEhT3c0.png

https://www.travelriskmap.com/#/planner/map/security.

That map doesn't look trustful at all...

Just imagine for a moment Morocco Sudan and Ethiopia safer than Panamá:picard1:.

Also I see my city painted as red as if it was some kind of Irak or Syria...
Is you want we compared how many people was murdered in Medellin this year and how many in other countries in red...

Also Norte de Santander painted in red when it is one of the most safe deparments of all the American continent ... And Usa painted all in yellow as if it was super homogenous( as if south-east black states equal white states...)etc,etc...

[Cristiano viejo]

And it has nothing to do with "populist entertainment", Morocco just took back its Sahara now their priorities are these two enclaves and inhabitants of ceuta/melilla have the spanish nationality so they can freely go back to mainland Spain.

No no no no. No! Moroccans that live in Ceuta and Melilla have to remain there, that is my only condition. Only Spaniards would have the obvious right to come, and their emty places used with other Moroccans that parasite in Spain.

[Hamilcar]

That map don't look trustful at all...

Just imagine for a moment Morocco Sudan and Ethiopia safer than Panamá:picard1:.

Also I see my city painted as red as if it was some kind of Irak or Syria...
Is you want we compared how many people was murdered in Medellin and how many in other countries in red...

look closely at the map again, sudan and ethiopia are clearly more dangerous than Panama

[Lozano]

look closely at the map again, sudan and ethiopia are clearly more dangerous than Panama

Yeah only south panama bordering colombia is in red...

Where there are literally just natural parks there. Super dangerous

[Sebastianus Rex]

I could not care less about Ceuta and Melilla. Always were Spanish (Ceuta firstly was Portuguese) and until 40 years ago when Franco died Moroccans were barely existent there. With the "democracy" these brownies were allowed to enter, and now they make near the 50% of the population, being the rest ethnic Spaniards (soldiers, administrative personal, teachers, doctors). As usual Moroccans are the trash of their society and source of yihadism, crime and drug traffick. Parasites.

Currently Ceuta and Melilla only serve to that Moroccan brownies and blacks from Subsahara enter to Europe. Two good shitholes. And EU is who allows this invasion.

Uuufffff... I am so glad you hermanos took Ceuta from us after 1640. Nicest thing Spain has ever done for us, muchas muchas gracias!! Vosotros si, son buenos vecinos de verdad, eternamente agradecidos!:thumb001: :loveheart:

[Hamilcar]

Yeah only south panama bordering colombia is in red...

Where there are literally just natural parks there. Super dangerous


yes one of the most dangerous region of Panama :

https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2020/08/27/migrants-risk-panamas-darien-gap-dangerous-jungle/
https://www.outsideonline.com/2098801/skull-stake-darien-gap

[Cristiano viejo]

Uuufffff... I am so glad you hermanos took Ceuta from us after 1640. Nicest thing Spain has ever done for us, muchas muchas gracias!! Vosotros si, son buenos vecinos de verdad, eternamente agradecidos!:thumb001: :loveheart:

Nothing good could get from Africa :picard1:

[kaderoran]

The dirtiest, I'am not sure. You haven't algerians in spain?

I do not think they are dirtier than the French

[kaderoran]

You are viewing this issue solely through the large-scale geopolitical lens as though that was any relevant. Common people are fed up with them because they are out of the scale when it comes to criminality rates. Spain isn't there for taking responsibility of Morocco's garbage.

That is an internal problem Spain has not managed well I spoke about political matters between the two countries, even Algeria and Morocco, politically things are bad and with that, there are more than 400,000 Moroccans working in Algeria.:picard1::icon_rolleyes:

[Gredos]

Thats not what the OP posts suggest.
Suggest spaniards are fighting to keep them as part of spain.

Spain does not have any benefit at present, on the contrary, it is a burden

the constitution protects them. Spanish politicians and the army are obliged to defend them. unfortunately it will be impossible to expel them when they are Muslim majority, they will never want independence because that would condemn them.

[Jehan]

I do not think they are dirtier than the French

Let's agree we can't live together ok?
You live in africa and us in europe and we never have relationships, fair?

You have oil, gaz, good weather, sea, everything should be perfect withhout the dirty french, isn't it true?

[kaderoran]

Let's agree we can't live together ok?
You live in africa and us in europe and we never have relationships, fair?

You have oil, gaz, good weather, sea, everything should be perfect withhout the dirty french, isn't it true?
Who came to Africa first, aren't they the French who are destroying countries like Libya, and now they are carrying out a disgusting war in Mali on our borders, and before that, Algeria, etc. Stay in your countries and no one will come to you

[Aldaris]

That is an internal problem Spain has not managed well I spoke about political matters between the two countries, even Algeria and Morocco, politically things are bad and with that, there are more than 400,000 Moroccans working in Algeria.:picard1::icon_rolleyes:

Correct, Spanish government and they messed up immigration policy managed to screw up, along with most of Europe. About the large-scale political matters between the two, I don't know much, but either way, not really a relevant thing to me.

[Egyptian]

Ceuta and Melila belong to Morocco same shit happened with Egypt about Alexandria with greeks and Sinai with jews and we got both back.

All support to Morocco from Egypt to get their land back.

[Egyptian]

Who came to Africa first, aren't they the French who are destroying countries like Libya, and now they are carrying out a disgusting war in Mali on our borders, and before that, Algeria, etc. Stay in your countries and no one will come to you

Good point + deporting them from South africa and Namibia back to europe : ))

[Incal]

Spain should give back Ceuta and Melilla but in return they'd expell each and every Morroccan and never allow them to enter. Win/win situation (well not really xD)

[Daven]

Spain should give back Ceuta and Melilla but in return they'd expell each and every Morroccan and never allow them to enter. Win/win situation (well not really xD)

Only the illegal ones and those who don't behave IMO.

[Incal]

Only the illegal ones and those who don't behave IMO.

Well that makes all Moroccans lol

[Daven]

Well that makes all Moroccans lol

Wow I don't think all Moroccans are undocumented nor pillos.

Anyways, it's not a bad idea. Maybe we Dominicans should give Haiti some of our sparsely populated border provinces in exchange to expell the undocumented Haitians or at least half of them. I have no problem with undocumented Doms. returning to the island.

[Gredos]

Ceuta and Melila belong to Morocco same shit happened with Egypt about Alexandria with greeks and Sinai with jews and we got both back.

All support to Morocco from Egypt to get their land back.

you are dumb ?, Morocco has nothing to do with it, these cities belong to its inhabitants whose ancestors founded them more than 2000 years ago.

Morocco is just the usual third world invader looking for small border regions to scavenge, that's why they have never asked for independence because it would be their end.

[Hamilcar]

you are dumb ?, Morocco has nothing to do with it, these cities belong to its inhabitants whose ancestors founded them more than 2000 years ago.

Morocco is just the usual third world invader looking for small border regions to scavenge, that's why they have never asked for independence because it would be their end.

2000 years ago, Spain didn't exist yet nor was the population of these two cities iberian...also you seem to forget the history of these cities between the roman era and the portuguese conquest.

[Incal]

Wow I don't think all Moroccans are undocumented nor pillos.

Anyways, it's not a bad idea. Maybe we Dominicans should give Haiti some of our sparsely populated border provinces in exchange to expell the undocumented Haitians or at least half of them. I have no problem with undocumented Doms. returning to the island.

Don't want to sound biased or harsh since there are scum all over the world (including my own country) but I really believe that the place where it concentrates the most (with the sole exception of Tunisia) is North Africa. If you nuked that shithole it could only be good news for humanity.

[Egyptian]

Don't want to sound biased or harsh since there are scum all over the world (including my own country) but I really believe that the place where it concentrates the most (with the sole exception of Tunisia) is North Africa. If you nuked that shithole it could only be good news for humanity.

stfu moron , why even a peruvian asshole has to do with all these problems in north africa and south europe.

[Egyptian]

you are dumb ?, Morocco has nothing to do with it, these cities belong to its inhabitants whose ancestors founded them more than 2000 years ago.

Morocco is just the usual third world invader looking for small border regions to scavenge, that's why they have never asked for independence because it would be their end.

the only dumb is you .. era of invasion is over , Morocco has all the rights in Ceuta and melia and even canary islands.

[Incal]

stfu moron , why even a peruvian asshole has to do with all these problems in north africa and south europe.

We live in the same world ain't it?

[Gredos]

the only dumb is you .. era of invasion is over , Morocco has all the rights in Ceuta and melia and even canary islands.

and Mauritania

[Cristiano viejo]

Who came to Africa first, aren't they the French who are destroying countries like Libya, and now they are carrying out a disgusting war in Mali on our borders, and before that, Algeria, etc. Stay in your countries and no one will come to you
But French left Africa after all, specially your country. So if you were coherent (something North Africans is impossible to be) you would leave equally :noidea:


Spain should give back Ceuta and Melilla but in return they'd expell each and every Morroccan and never allow them to enter. Win/win situation (well not really xD)
Where have we to sign? :icon_lol:


Well that makes all Moroccans lol
+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000


and Mauritania
Morocco could claim some black countries too. After all they share ancestors and culture :D

[Egyptian]

We live in the same world ain't it?

I hope not, cuz I don't like to deal with stupidity.

[Incal]

I hope not, cuz I don't like to deal with stupidity.

Sorry dude I don't really wanna sound offensive or agressive but if you really think by yourself you'll realize nobody will ever miss any north african in the world.

[The Lawspeaker]

Sorry dude I don't really wanna sound offensive or agressive but if you really think by yourself you'll realize nobody will ever miss any north african in the world.

A dark thought: The best way to reach nuclear disarmament is to use them.

[Incal]

A dark thought: The best way to reach nuclear disarmament is to use them.

lol

[Dandelion]

The Sahara to be turned into glass. :cool:

[The Lawspeaker]

Right, Dandelion ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrOsDGBW8U8

[Egyptian]

Sorry dude I don't really wanna sound offensive or agressive but if you really think by yourself you'll realize nobody will ever miss any north african in the world.

don't be sorry , who said i care about your opinion ?

[Egyptian]

A dark thought: The best way to reach nuclear disarmament is to use them.

hey dutch, u snifed some heroin today or what? corona will get ur ass country to the ground.

[kaderoran]

But French left Africa after all, specially your country. So if you were coherent (something North Africans is impossible to be) you would leave equally :noidea:


Where have we to sign? :icon_lol:


+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000


Morocco could claim some black countries too. After all they share ancestors and culture :D

The Libya war forced us to lose a billion to guard the borders and drained us, and now the Mali war, France is still practicing its disgusting methods in the region, and I will tell you something, had it not been for the North African countries, Europe was invaded by immigrants.

[Hamilcar]

Don't want to sound biased or harsh since there are scum all over the world (including my own country) but I really believe that the place where it concentrates the most (with the sole exception of Tunisia) is North Africa. If you nuked that shithole it could only be good news for humanity.


haha please why do you pretend you know anything about it ? I don't see what an individual like yourself has to do with us nor europe, refrain from talking about my people please. As far as I know the most dangerous places on earth are all located in south america : https://9jatoday.com/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world/


I won't enter into these racial fights because there are tons of latino members I appreciate and sincerely respect but you're clearly not in a position to give us lessons.

[Hamilcar]

and Mauritania

yes mauritania, a good chunk of algeria and Mali too :

https://i.imgur.com/1jyuIrR.png

[Cristiano viejo]

The Libya war forced us to lose a billion to guard the borders and drained us, and now the Mali war, France is still practicing its disgusting methods in the region, and I will tell you something, had it not been for the North African countries, Europe was invaded by immigrants.

How is France guilty for the Libian war?

Europe is already invaded by immigrants and the half of them are precisely from North African countries.

[Egyptian]

How is France guilty for the Libian war?

Europe is already invaded by immigrants and the half of them are precisely from North African countries.

Didn't they bomb Ghdaddfi regime also?:picard1:

Europe is invaded by immigrants and Africa invaded by immigrants espcially South Africa.

[Cristiano viejo]

Didn't they bomb Ghdaddfi regime also?:picard1:

Europe is invaded by immigrants and Africa invaded by immigrants espcially South Africa.

North Africans are invading France since tons of decades before they bombed Gadafi (what I remember to you it was celebrated by the half of the Libian population).

[Egyptian]

North Africans are invading France since tons of decades before they bombed Gadafi (what I remember to you it was celebrated by the half of the Libian population).

Of course it will be celebrated by people who were manipulted by western propaganda (just like Americans come for democracy in iraq and not oil) .. whom are you kidding? i think it's a fair trade , you take all europeans from africa + england takes israel since it created it in 1917 and we take all north africans back.

[kaderoran]

How is France guilty for the Libian war?

Europe is already invaded by immigrants and the half of them are precisely from North African countries.

France and NATO bombed Libya and killed Qaddafi and returned Libya to the Middle Ages. Weapons were distributed in the region, and now the time has come to divide Libya and share the wealth between them.
The number of migrants arriving in Europe is only five percent. You do not know how many immigrants are arrested in North Africa from all African countries
Spain is especially the case, as it is teeming with Moroccans

[Cristiano viejo]

Of course it will be celebrated by people who were manipulted by western propaganda (just like Americans come for democracy in iraq and not oil) .. whom are you kidding? i think it's a fair trade , you take all europeans from africa + england takes israel since it created it in 1917 and we take all north africans back.
It sounds nice, I could not care less about these Europeans (they are not Spanish), let alone England taking Israel (whatever that means) if with that we spared the worst nightmare on earth: the North Africans :thumb001:


France and NATO bombed Libya and killed Qaddafi and returned Libya to the Middle Ages. Weapons were distributed in the region, and now the time has come to divide Libya and share the wealth between them.
The number of migrants arriving in Europe is only five percent. You do not know how many immigrants are arrested in North Africa from all African countries
Spain is especially the case, as it is teeming with Moroccans
Libia already lived in the Middle Age, boy. WAIT, RATHER IN THE NEOLITHIC.