Origin of R-M198->R-FGC10641?

[Leto]

Not my Y DNA. Does anyone know it?

[Kyp]

Ashkenazi? No idea about the origin though.

[Leto]

Any more thoughts?

[Mejgusu]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5668307/

But i cannot say how trustable this information is.

[Leto]

Yes, that person is Jewish. Good study by the way

Accordingly, all R1a-Y2619 individuals, whether self-affiliating as Jews or non-Jews, whether Ashkenazi or non-Ashkenazi, whether Levites or non-Levites, are the direct male descendants of the paternal line of one common male ancestor who lived ~1,743 ybp (Table 1). As contemporary males from all branches of R1a-Y2619 sampled so far carry one of the many Levites surnames, it can be strongly argued that this male ancestor self-affiliated as a Levite and may have carried the patronymic surname Levite.
...
Two independent sample sets of Ashkenazi Jews in which the Levite status was unknown have similarly estimated the percentage of the R1a-Y2619 paternal haplogroup, R1a-M17/M198, in the Ashkenazi population at 9.6%20 and 11.5%, respectively27. The former paper reported that haplogroup R1a-M582 accounted for 7.9% of the total Ashkenazi population20. Here, we show that all Ashkenazi samples belonging to haplogroup R1a-M582 can be reclassified as R1a-Y2619. Based upon an Ashkenazi population size of ~4,000,00013 males, of whom about 7.9% are R1a-Y2619, there would be ~300,000 Ashkenazi males descending on their direct male line from a single relatively recent ancestor, with many of those men self-affiliating as Levite.

So the Levites turn out to be of Aryan descent. I guess fucking Hitler is crying in hell :swl

[Leto]

On a more serious note I do wonder how an Indo-European could possibly have founded the Levite lineage and whether it was present in Biblical Israel.

I can post autosomal results of that man.

[Arhat]

Not my Y DNA. Does anyone know it?

The clade itself is specific for Jews but the ancestor of it is either from Mitanni Indo-Aryans or from West Iranics. The closest subclades outside of Jews and Palestinians were found in NW Iran so it likely came from Iran. It is typical for Levites who have more Aryan R1a-Z93 than Iranians and Kurds (50%). This was caused by some kind of founder effect

[Arhat]

On a more serious note I do wonder how an Indo-European could possibly have founded the Levite lineage and whether it was present in Biblical Israel.

I can post autosomal results of that man.

There is R1a in BA Megiddo (Israel) and he has steppe admix. So R1a arrived in Israel already in 1500 B.C but obviously was for the most time a very rare lineage.

[Ion Basescul]

Not my Y DNA. Does anyone know it?

R-CTS6 upstream looks Iranic, so ultimately this is an Iranic lineage, but FGC10641 specifically looks connected to the area between Ukraine and Poland mostly.

[Shubotai]

R1a-Z93->Z2124->Z2122->CTS6->Y2619->FGC10641

Haplogroup Z2122 is connected with the Zazaki language, a western Iranic language east of Cappadocia, which is different than Kurdish. The Georgians and Jewish that belong to this subclade including Benjamin Netanyahu's brother are therefore of western Iranic origin. In my opinion it may be related to Cimmerians an ancient Indo-germanic group that moved around a lot in the Middle East, Caucasus and the Pontic steppes.

[Ion Basescul]

R1a-Z93->Z2124->Z2122->CTS6->Y2619->FGC10641

Cimmerians an ancient Indo-germanic group

lmao, those guys were like 40% East Asian and the rest European-like

[Kyp]

R1a-Z93->Z2124->Z2122->CTS6->Y2619->FGC10641

Haplogroup Z2122 is connected with the Zazaki language, a western Iranic language east of Cappadocia, which is different than Kurdish. The Georgians and Jewish that belong to this subclade including Benjamin Netanyahu's brother are therefore of western Iranic origin. In my opinion it may be related to Cimmerians an ancient Indo-germanic group that moved around a lot in the Middle East, Caucasus and the Pontic steppes.

Any sources on this? (would be interested)

[Pine]

Ashkenazi Levite clade - most likely picked up during Babylonian exile from Iranics.

[Pine]

R-CTS6 upstream looks Iranic, so ultimately this is an Iranic lineage, but FGC10641 specifically looks connected to the area between Ukraine and Poland mostly.

That's because all the eastern euro flags are Ashkenazi.

[Pine]

On a more serious note I do wonder how an Indo-European could possibly have founded the Levite lineage and whether it was present in Biblical Israel.

I can post autosomal results of that man.

R1a has been found in ancient Israel and his autosomal results are irrelevant unless his ethnic identification is really surprising. His Y is clearly Ashkenazi.

[Shubotai]

Nope, Cimmerians moved northwards from the Middle East to the Caucasus and only then westwards after they had crossed the Caucasus. They might have even been the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel connecting the two theories in one. Their haplogroups being R1a, R1b and mtdna U, H. No East Asian group ever made it to Europe.

Just contemporary ftdna results, researches like Rootsi 2013 (https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3928) only link it to ancient Assyrians and ancestors of the Levites.

[Mejgusu]

R1a-Z93->Z2124->Z2122->CTS6->Y2619->FGC10641

Haplogroup Z2122 is connected with the Zazaki language, a western Iranic language east of Cappadocia, which is different than Kurdish. The Georgians and Jewish that belong to this subclade including Benjamin Netanyahu's brother are therefore of western Iranic origin. In my opinion it may be related to Cimmerians an ancient Indo-germanic group that moved around a lot in the Middle East, Caucasus and the Pontic steppes.

Zazas came much later to Anatolia.

Isn’t R1b of steppe origin like R1a? Since it is very common among many in Middle East it must originate of a very early migration. Fo we know what haplogroups were belonging to ancient Jews/Levantines(just J/E or more)?

[Kyp]

Zazas came much later to Anatolia.

Isn’t R1b of steppe origin like R1a? Since it is very common among many in Middle East it must originate of a very early migration. Fo we know what haplogroups were belonging to ancient Jews/Levantines(just J/E or more)?

I think Zazas could have been native to East Anatolia for very long time tbh. They probably have been pushed further north/west by Kurds. I'm starting to think my YDNA is linked to them. My father always has a lot of Zaza matches.

[Mejgusu]

I think Zazas could have been native to East Anatolia for very long time tbh. They probably have been pushed further north/west by Kurds. I'm starting to think my YDNA is linked to them. My father always has a lot of Zaza matches.

Zazas have different origins, in my knowledge they are from Caspian sea or/and Chorasan. Tunceli is, although they are theoretically homogeneous regarding ethnic composition, very heterogeneous. Some look like Chorasani+Armenian, some Kurdish+Armenian and Some Kurdish+Turkish mixes.

[Kyp]

Zazas have different origins, in my knowledge they are from Caspian sea or/and Chorasan. Tunceli is, although they are theoretically homogeneous regarding ethnic composition, very heterogeneous. Some look like Chorasani+Armenian, some Kurdish+Armenian and Some Kurdish+Turkish mixes.

I think they descend from the Daylamites (Northwest Iran) the Khorasan origin could refer to a Parthian origin further back.

"Nach Angaben des Historikers al-Tabari galten Daylamiten und türkische Völker als die schlimmsten Feinde der arabischen Muslime "

[Arhat]

R1a-Z93->Z2124->Z2122->CTS6->Y2619->FGC10641

Haplogroup Z2122 is connected with the Zazaki language, a western Iranic language east of Cappadocia, which is different than Kurdish. The Georgians and Jewish that belong to this subclade including Benjamin Netanyahu's brother are therefore of western Iranic origin. In my opinion it may be related to Cimmerians an ancient Indo-germanic group that moved around a lot in the Middle East, Caucasus and the Pontic steppes.

Z2122 itself i much older than West Iranics. It is for sure Aryan because Z94 was in the BA pretty much restricted to Aryans but without ancient genomes we dont know when and with who it arrived. Could be even some Indo-Aryans like in Mitanni. It being common today among Jews and Iranians doe not mean it was restricted to them in the past. Founder effects and bottle necks can easily mislead us. Rather Z2122 has probably clades associated with various mostly Iranic groips but we need ancient dna to confirm that.

[Shubotai]

Certainly, there is this approach as well, the conservative one. And in this particular case I think a founder effect is more likely. We can say that FGC10641 is Ukrainian or Jewish and just leave it there. I have no objection to that. Take R-Z93 and we can describe many Eurasian populations, take R-CTS3402 and it can range from being just East Slavic to being the ancestral group of all Indo-germanic peoples. Take Q and we can describe the whole world. Or even T and we can still cover a wide range of various ethnicities. They are like layers existing in broad geographical regions and from their various combinations different groups are born.

But I want to note that at the same time that the molecular clock is being a tad overestimated, the age of extant linguistic families is severely underestimated. And so the truth is somewhere in the middle, even if being closer to the first. And what about the calculation of a haplogroup's coalescence age, is it really to be trusted? There is a difference between an approximate estimation and a chronology based on an actual ancient sample. A large array of mutations can not always be only ascribed to an old age but also to other conditions. And that is evident even in the
differences between y-dna and mtdna, where the first has a fast mutation rate and the second has a slow mutation rate because of social habits.

The same goes for autosomal dna and haplogroups. If autosomal results were really accurate then they would show 97% Ethiopian because that is where humans came from and 3% Middle Eastern due to the Neanderthal admixture. But the total admixture is calculated by comparing an area's genome to an other area's genome which can be traced back 200 to 300 years at most. Also the matches are calculated by comparing a person's genome to other persons' genomes which is again an estimation using the comparative method and not really nuclear science backtracking one's one genome. And haplogroups on the other hand can only pinpoint one certain ancestor, so they are only useful for broader population studies.
So haplogroups without autosomal are lame, while autosomal without haplogroups is blind.

The Jewish have the most advanced documentation on haplogroups in the West and so have Koreans in East Asia, which results in an infinite number of subclades being labelled as Jewish or Korean before they are even given the chance to display in which other areas they might have a significant frequency or diversity. Are we then to suggest that all of these ancient subclades independently arised to form the Jewish identity or that an ethnic group loses its meaning entirely?

We could adapt a more complex model where a large part of human genetic variability as it is attested in the various groups today was already present in their ancestral groups before the beginning of pre-historical times and subsequently populations moved from a region to an other amassing other elements in the process while leaving others behind, before they finally form those attested ethnolinguistic groups.

And why miss out on the opportunity to establish permanent genetic terms for persons that belong to the same branches, regardless of their ethnic or linguistic affiliations because unlike those two, haplogroups can actually show a common origin. That is, unless two set of mutations have independently arised in two distinct populations, which is practictally impossible given their large number on one side and the environmental differences on the other.