Are you closer to Sardinians or Sogdians (Yaghbobi Tajiks)?

[RyoHazuki]

Title edit: *Yaghnobi

Not intending to bring these style of threads back, but considering the genetic history or people from Sardinia and historically Sogdia, it would be interesting to see where people fall.


Sardinian,0.1216872,0.1672855,0.0284897,-0.0506523,0.060151,-0.0221337,-0.0039523,0.0024964,0.0415743,0.077351,-5.9e-05,0.0166487,-0.0286645,-0.012974,-0.013572,-0.0030013,0.0114027,-0.0013475,0.0016798,-0.0129947,-0.0021212,-0.0011018,-0.010084,-0.021383,0.0003375
Tajik_Yagnobi,0.101758,0.067431,-0.0290384,0.0220932,-0.0428386,0.0186856,0.005452,-0.0012922,-0.0374278,-0.0286842,-0.0067878,-0.0006896,5.94e-05,-0.0123586,0.0139792,0.0142138,-0.0062844,0.000456,-0.0009802,-0.0130562,-0.0078362,-0.0060588,0.0006408,0.0017832,0.0053408

[RyoHazuki]

Me:

Distance to: Ryo_scaled
0.15322272 Sardinian
0.16096931 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Ryo_scaled
Distance: 10.7876% / 0.10787611 | ADC: 0.25x RC
52.4 Sardinian
47.6 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Pedro Ruben]

Distance: 6.7317% / 0.06731656
Target: Pedro_scaled
63.5 Sardinian
36.5 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: Pedro_scaled
0.10707402 Sardinian
0.15988071 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Chris596]

Sardinians, but not by much, the distances are almost identical, which surprised me, because I usually score a bit of Sardinian on G25. And Yagnobis are genetically far away from regular Europeans so I don't know what's going on here. But I could be wrong of course.

Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.13662646 Sardinian
0.13950413 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 7.7670% / 0.07766959
50.8 Sardinian
49.2 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Dr_Maul]

Well Yagnobis are more or less Sogdians + 3-5% mongoloid so I’d say the title is still accurate

[michal3141]

I am slightly more Tajik Yagnobi than Sardinian, interesting:

Distance to: michal3141
0.15870529 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.18546579 Sardinian

Distance: 12.7895% / 0.12789460
Target: michal3141
58.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
41.2 Sardinian

[oszkar07]

Distance to: Oszkar
0.15232499 Sardinian
0.15713074 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Oszkar
Distance: 10.4438% / 0.10443836
51.4 Sardinian
48.6 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Lucas]

Distance: 14.2692% / 0.14269221
Target: Lukasz_scaled
56.3 Tajik_Yagnobi
43.7 Sardinian

[RyoHazuki]

Many will be 50/50, but I predict most Southern Europeans will be closer to Sardinians, while Eastern/Northern Europeans will edge closer to Yaghnobi Sogdians. Where Balkan people fit will be interesting.

[Hamilcar]

Distance to: Hamilcar_scaled
0.18357825 Sardinian
0.23091366 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Kamal900]

More closer to Yaghnobis/Sogdians:
Distance: 10.2852% / 0.10285180
Target: Moody_scaled
55.7 Tajik_Yagnobi
44.3 Sardinian

[paradox]

Distanceto:scaled
0.12002165 Sardinian
0.12870690 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 4.9340% / 0.04934004
Target: scaled
52.1 Sardinian
47.9 Tajik_Yagnobi

------------------------

Distanceto:Father_scaled
0.12707205 Sardinian
0.13786406 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 6.7150% / 0.06715047
Target: Father_scaled
52.7 Sardinian
47.3 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Gallop]

Distance: 6.0869% / 0.06086935
Target: Gallop_scaled
68.8 Sardinian
31.2 Tajik_Yagnobi


Distance to: Gallop_scaled
0.09360637 Sardinian
0.16854684 Tajik_Yagnobi

[gixajo]

Obviously to Sardinians.

Target: gixajo_scaled
Distance: 6.2731% / 0.06273078
71.0 Sardinian
29.0 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: gixajo_scaled
0.09133388 Sardinian
0.17362959 Tajik_Yagnobi
**********************************************
Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
Distance: 5.1271% / 0.05127120
73.0 Sardinian
27.0 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: gixajo_dad_scaled
0.08016467 Sardinian
0.17436826 Tajik_Yagnobi

**********************************************
Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
Distance: 7.3609% / 0.07360941
70.0 Sardinian
30.0 Tajik_Yagnobi


Distance to: gixajo_mom_scaled
0.10040487 Sardinian
0.17612019 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Luso]

Target: Luso_scaled
Distance: 6.3184% / 0.06318410
68.0 Sardinian
32.0 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: Luso_scaled
0.09653224 Sardinian
0.16766487 Tajik_Yagnobi

[calxpal]

Very slightly closer to Sardinians

Distance to: cpalscaled
0.14901877 Sardinian
0.15004837 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: cpalscaled
Distance: 9.6600% / 0.09660040
50.2 Sardinian
49.8 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Luke35]

Distance to: Mr.G_scaled
0.14077029 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.14614142 Sardinian

----------------------

Dad and mom:

Distance to: Mr.G_dad_scaled
0.12932499 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15529930 Sardinian


Distance to: Mr.G_mom_scaled
0.14075152 Sardinian
0.15531204 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Damião de Góis]

I don't know what a Sogdian is, so i think it's natural that i'm closer to sardinians.

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 5.9269% / 0.05926932
64.2 Sardinian
35.8 Tajik_Yagnobi


Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.10080325 Sardinian
0.15826383 Tajik_Yagnobi

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Distance to: 7.62x39_scaled
0.14732738 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.17722544 Sardinian


Target: 7.62x39_scaled
Distance: 11.4354% / 0.11435449
59.4 Tajik_Yagnobi
40.6 Sardinian

[Trouble]

Well Yagnobis are more or less Sogdians + 3-5% mongoloid so I’d say the title is still accurate

It wouldn't shock me and I do believe that Pamiris are the closest descendants of Sogdians but can we really say to what extent? Something tells me that these ancient central Asians had extra steppe compared to the ones alive today, including Pamiris. Pamiris from Rushan have more steppe than Yaghnobis too, so they would be an even better proxy. We dont have any data on some of those ancient central asian people yet including Khwarezmids and Sogdians.

[Faklon]

Sardinians see Europeans as Tajik mutts.

[Grace O'Malley]

To the Tajiks slightly.

Distance to: Grace_scaled
0.16133696 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.16621709 Sardinian

Target: Grace_scaled
Distance: 11.7423% / 0.11742284
51.6 Tajik_Yagnobi
48.4 Sardinian

[RyoHazuki]

I don't know what a Sogdian is, so i think it's natural that i'm closer to sardinians.

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 5.9269% / 0.05926932
64.2 Sardinian
35.8 Tajik_Yagnobi


Distance to: Gil_Vicente
0.10080325 Sardinian
0.15826383 Tajik_Yagnobi

Ancient East Iranians from Central Asia. Greatly influenced Chinese Tang Dynasty, especially clothing wise.

[Demhat]

Well Yagnobis are more or less Sogdians + 3-5% mongoloid so I’d say the title is still accurate

If there is any difference in the East Eurasian at all.

[Demhat]

More closer to Yaghnobis/Sogdians:
Distance: 10.2852% / 0.10285180
Target: Moody_scaled
55.7 Tajik_Yagnobi
44.3 Sardinian

That is odd. You are really more North and Eastern shifted than the norm for Palestinians I guess. I would expect a firmly Levant_CHL based individual to score closer to Sardinians.


Distance to: 7.62x39_scaled
0.14732738 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.17722544 Sardinian


Target: 7.62x39_scaled
Distance: 11.4354% / 0.11435449
59.4 Tajik_Yagnobi
40.6 Sardinian

Again odd as hell, as a Northwest African you should be closer to Sardinians, if even Iberians barely score Yagnobi. Makes me wonder if you don't have some of those Alan-Vandal genes which ended up in North Africa.

I always thought some of these Algerian, Tunisian traditional dresses looked oddly eastern similar to Iranic dresses.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/9c/44/009c44e460ce201cd9a2639c8b47ff94.jpg

Tajik
https://muhajabat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tajikistan_national_dress.jpg
https://media.againstthecompass.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/tajik-tashgurkan-1024x684.jpg

[Trouble]

That is odd. You are really more North and Eastern shifted than the norm for Palestinians I guess. I would expect a firmly Levant_CHL based individual to score closer to Sardinians.



Again odd as hell, as a Northwest African you should be closer to Sardinians, if even Iberians barely score Yagnobi. Makes me wonder if you don't have some of those Alan-Vandal genes which ended up in North Africa.

I always thought some of these Algerian, Tunisian traditional dresses looked oddly eastern similar to Iranic dresses.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/9c/44/009c44e460ce201cd9a2639c8b47ff94.jpg

Tajik
https://muhajabat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tajikistan_national_dress.jpg
https://media.againstthecompass.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/tajik-tashgurkan-1024x684.jpg

The person might not be what they claim to be.

[Mortimer]

I expected to be closer to Tajik. Not sure why I just think Tajiks are a bit similar to pakis or indians because of ANE

Distance to: Svetozar_scaled
0.09440743 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15799541 Sardinian

[Mortimer]

Target: Svetozar_scaled
Distance: 5.1705% / 0.05170509
65.4 Tajik_Yagnobi
34.6 Sardinian

[Ylla]

Distance:
0.10028568 Sardinian
0.15427243 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 5.4718% / 0.05471819
63.2 Sardinian
36.8 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Adamm]

Distance to: Adam_Scaled

0.19277711 Sardinian
0.23824785 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Ritz06]

Distance to:
0.08435060 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15692235 Sardinian

Target:
Distance: 3.7021% / 0.03702119
66.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
33.2 Sardinian

[RyoHazuki]

Distance to:
0.08435060 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15692235 Sardinian

Target:
Distance: 3.7021% / 0.03702119
66.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
33.2 Sardinian

This is an almost passable model for you. Very interesting.

[lacreme]

My Greek friend, his mother and his,as recently discovered,not biological maternal grandfather.
Surprisingly especially for his "granpa" and him, the fits are not too bad for having only those 2 populations.


Target: Chris_scaled
Distance: 4.4756% / 0.04475647
55.8 Sardinian
44.2 Tajik_Yagnobi


Target: ChrisMom_scaled
Distance: 5.6572% / 0.05657216
52.2 Sardinian
47.8 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Chris_notbiological_granpa_scaled
Distance: 4.9059% / 0.04905912
60.4 Sardinian
39.6 Tajik_Yagnobi


Distance to: Chris_scaled
0.11057074 Sardinian
0.13482260 Tajik_Yagnobi


Distance to: ChrisMom_scaled
0.12297595 Sardinian
0.13184755 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: Chris_notbiological_granpa_scaled
0.10301332 Sardinian
0.14618160 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Flashball]

Father
57.0 Sardinian
43.0 Tajik_Yagnobi

0.13580131 Sardinian
0.16021122 Tajik_Yagnobi



Mother
76.0 Sardinian
24.0 Tajik_Yagnobi

0.07048352 Sardinian
0.17919078 Tajik_Yagnobi


This sardinian sample has 13% of Western Hunter Gatherer, like my father.

+ Deban me Loki.

[Negah]

Target: Negah_scaled
Distance: 7.0248% / 0.07024843
83.6 Tajik_Yagnobi
16.4 Sardinian

Distance to: Negah_scaled
0.07965734 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.20325433 Sardinian

[happycow]

Distance to: TimA_scaled
0.15813517 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.16720806 Sardinian

Target: TimA_scaled
Distance: 11.5812% / 0.11581162
52.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
47.2 Sardinian

[95K1ller]

My dad

Distance to: al_scaled
0.09145088 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.21231876 Sardinian

Distance: 8.5005% / 0.08500505
Target: al_scaled | ADC: 0.25x RC
85.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
14.8 Sardinian

[Kamal900]

Distance to: TimA_scaled
0.15813517 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.16720806 Sardinian

Target: TimA_scaled
Distance: 11.5812% / 0.11581162
52.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
47.2 Sardinian

Habiby!

[Demhat]

My dad

Distance to: al_scaled
0.09145088 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.21231876 Sardinian

Distance: 8.5005% / 0.08500505
Target: al_scaled | ADC: 0.25x RC
85.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
14.8 Sardinian

Would be interesting to see your Dodecad k12b results. Father being more shifted towards Tajik_Yagnobi was expected

[Trouble]

I didn't get why some levantine people were closer to Yagnobis than Sardinians till I did some modeling. Sardinians seem to be 95% ANF+WHG and the rest is steppe. Levantines lack WHG completely, have a lot of Levant_N, and more Iran_N+steppe. Makes sense that they aren't particularly close. Yaghnobis aren't very close either but they have Iran_N+steppe, have decent ANF(mainly from MLBA steppe), and also lack WHG. In the end they just barely edge out Sardinians in terms of distance as strange as it is.

[Flashball]

I didn't get why some levantine people were closer to Yagnobis than Sardinians till I did some modeling. Sardinians seem to be 95% ANF+WHG and the rest is steppe. Levantines lack WHG completely, have a lot of Levant_N, and more Iran_N+steppe. Makes sense that they aren't particularly close. Yaghnobis aren't very close either but they have Iran_N+steppe, have decent ANF(mainly from MLBA steppe), and also lack WHG. In the end they just barely edge out Sardinians in terms of distance as strange as it is.

That's right.

[celticdragongod]

Distance to: CDG_scaled
0.16069932 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.16126122 Sardinian

Target: CDG_scaled
Distance: 11.3517% / 0.11351680
50.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
49.8 Sardinian

[Demhat]

I didn't get why some levantine people were closer to Yagnobis than Sardinians till I did some modeling. Sardinians seem to be 95% ANF+WHG and the rest is steppe. Levantines lack WHG completely, have a lot of Levant_N, and more Iran_N+steppe. Makes sense that they aren't particularly close. Yaghnobis aren't very close either but they have Iran_N+steppe, have decent ANF(mainly from MLBA steppe), and also lack WHG. In the end they just barely edge out Sardinians in terms of distance as strange as it is.

Yep the Iran_Chl DNA might be the reason. However that doesn't explain why some North Africans drift more towards Yahgnobis.

And to clarify some things. I see many people here underestimating the ANF ancestry in Europeans significantly by using amateur tools. Sardinians are basically ANF (~80-85%) with little WHG (10-15%) and even less Steppe(EHG/CHG) 5-10%.

What you called here "lack of WHG" in Levantines is basically the difference between Levantine Neolithic and Anatolian Neolithic. Levantines don't lack WHG in comparison. They have less of the WHG like component that was a primariy component of ANF. ANF itself never got real WHG admixture in Anatolia but is descend straight from Anatolian mesolithic Hunters.

I don't remember exactly how Dzudzuana fits into this. But as far as I remember the WHG like ancestry in ANF is Dzudzuana like derived. WHG itself is basically Dzudzuana + drift.

[Trouble]

Yep the Iran_Chl DNA might be the reason. However that doesn't explain why some North Africans drift more towards Yahgnobis.

And to clarify some things. I see many people here underestimating the ANF ancestry in Europeans significantly by using amateur tools. Sardinians are basically ANF (~80-85%) with little WHG (10-15%) and even less Steppe(5-10%).

What you called here "lack of WHG" in Levantines is basically the difference between Levantine Neolithic and Anatolian Neolithic. Levantines don't lack WHG in comparison. They have less of the WHG like component that was a primariy component of ANF. ANF itself never got WHG (European Hunter and Gatherer) admixture but is descend straight from Anatolian mesolithic Hunters.

I don't remember exactly how Dzudzuana fits into this. But as far as I remember the WHG like ancestry in ANF is Dzudzuana like derived. WHG itself is basically Dzudzuana + drift.


Well the difference I was talking about is independent of the contents of ANF and Levant_N. There’s extra WHG ancestry in Neolithic Europe because ANF absorbed WHG after colonizing Europe. Neolithic Euros had varying amounts of HG(mainly WHG related) admixture. That’s what I was referring to.

ANF is not that far from Levant_N, I think it’s similar to CHG and Iran_N ie closely related. The problem though is that Sardinians are 80% ANF, Levantines are nowhere close as they have much more Iran_N and Levant_N instead. That combo makes them very different.

Also, I don’t believe that any North Africans are shifted towards Yaghnobis. That greensavannah guy is most likely not what he claims or he used someone else’s coordinates. Both Nassbean and Adam are decidedly closer to Sardinians, and there is absolutely no reason why other Maghrebis would not be the same.

[Kyp]

Distance to: Kyp_scaled
0.08899667 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15669953 Sardinian

Distance: 4.3378% / 0.04337848
Target: Kyp_scaled
66.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
34.0 Sardinian

[Trouble]

Distance to: Kyp_scaled
0.08899667 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15669953 Sardinian

Distance: 4.3378% / 0.04337848
Target: Kyp_scaled
66.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
34.0 Sardinian

Best fit so far. And hardly surprising

[Zoro]

Well the difference I was talking about is independent of the contents of ANF and Levant_N. There’s extra WHG ancestry in Neolithic Europe because ANF absorbed WHG after colonizing Europe. Neolithic Euros had varying amounts of HG(mainly WHG related) admixture. That’s what I was referring to.

ANF is not that far from Levant_N, I think it’s similar to CHG and Iran_N ie closely related. The problem though is that Sardinians are 80% ANF, Levantines are nowhere close as they have much more Iran_N and Levant_N instead. That combo makes them very different.

Also, I don’t believe that any North Africans are shifted towards Yaghnobis. That greensavannah guy is most likely not what he claims or he used someone else’s coordinates. Both Nassbean and Adam are decidedly closer to Sardinians, and there is absolutely no reason why other Maghrebis would not be the same.

Before going on to all sorts of theories to explain why in G25 N. Africans and NW Europeans are closer to Shugnan Tajiks than they are to Sardinians (whose large drift can cause them to show large distances) the 1st standard thing to do in science is to make sure the tool itself (G25) is not to blame by checking this with other tools such as Vahaduo and formal stats.

You guys do have access to Vahaduo Admixture calculators. What do they say about the distance of NW Europeans and N. Africans to Shugnan Tajiks vs Sardinians. Check that 1st.

While you check that, I'll see about checking formal stats and if the results do indeed show NW Europeans and N. Africans closer to Shugnans than Sardinians then I'm sure we can come up with threories to explain why.


Edit: When checking with Vahaduo just don't use a calculator that has either Tajiks or Sardinians as calculator references for a component just like you wouldn't use Dodecad k12 or Harappa to check Baloch distances since they are one of the components.

Also use a calculator that has a sufficient number of components to differentiate between closely related populations.

While you do that I try to get some qpWave results. It'll take me the better part of a day to do but I'll try to get it done.

[IceQueen]

Distance: 11.2585% / 0.11258525
Target: IceQueen_scaled
50.9 Tajik_Yagnobi
49.1 Sardinian

Distance to: IceQueen_scaled
0.15887936 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.16178244 Sardinian

[Zoro]

Before going on to all sorts of theories to explain why in G25 N. Africans and NW Europeans are closer to Shugnan Tajiks than they are to Sardinians (whose large drift can cause them to show large distances) the 1st standard thing to do in science is to make sure the tool itself (G25) is not to blame by checking this with other tools such as Vahaduo and formal stats.

You guys do have access to Vahaduo Admixture calculators. What do they say about the distance of NW Europeans and N. Africans to Shugnan Tajiks vs Sardinians. Check that 1st.

While you check that, I'll see about checking formal stats and if the results do indeed show NW Europeans and N. Africans closer to Shugnans than Sardinians then I'm sure we can come up with threories to explain why.


Edit: When checking with Vahaduo just don't use a calculator that has either Tajiks or Sardinians as calculator references for a component just like you wouldn't use Dodecad k12 or Harappa to check Baloch distances since they are one of the components.

Also use a calculator that has a sufficient number of components to differentiate between closely related populations.

While you do that I try to get some qpWave results. It'll take me the better part of a day to do but I'll try to get it done.

Here's Punt K15 on vahaduo. Libyan is closer to Sardinian. So is Irish. The real verdict will be formal stats qpWave which I should have within a day


<colgroup width="144"></colgroup> <colgroup width="197"></colgroup> <tbody>
Distance
Irish


51.52
Sardinian


53.12
Tadjik


58.00
Lebanese


59.27
Palestinian


59.61
Kurdish


60.27
Syrian


62.29
Libyan










Distance
Libyan


18.48
Palestinian


19.75
Syrian


20.99
Lebanese


36.67
Kurdish


41.83
Sardinian


49.33
Tadjik


62.29
Irish










Distance
Palestinian


3.52
Lebanese


5.57
Syrian


18.48
Libyan


18.70
Kurdish


35.63
Tadjik


46.31
Sardinian


59.27
Irish










Distance
Kurdish


16.41
Lebanese


18.70
Palestinian


19.37
Syrian


24.61
Tadjik


36.67
Libyan


55.45
Sardinian


59.61
Irish

</tbody>
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And here's Dodecad K12 (for Kurds I used original Dodecad Kurds since it looks like someone who hates Kurds has removed the original Dodecad Kurds and replaced them with his own version in the updated spreadsheet)


<colgroup width="144"></colgroup> <colgroup width="197"></colgroup> <tbody>
Distance
English_North


10.23
French


44.08
Italian_Sicily


45.54
Sardinian


47.23
Tajik_Shughnan


49.80
Tajik_Tajikistan


50.28
Tajik_Ishkashim


52.33
Tajiks


55.77
Tajik_Herat


56.25
Maghrebi


62.81
Palestinian


63.61
Egyptian


65.35
Kurd


65.41
Kurds


65.51
Lur_Iran


65.84
Palestinian_Christian


66.33
Syrian_SW_Christian










Distance
French


10.23
English_North


35.85
Sardinian


39.44
Italian_Sicily


49.23
Tajik_Shughnan


50.67
Tajik_Tajikistan


52.03
Maghrebi


52.15
Tajik_Ishkashim


53.49
Tajiks


55.49
Tajik_Herat


59.11
Palestinian


59.84
Egyptian


61.82
Palestinian_Christian


62.25
Syrian_SW_Christian


63.42
Lur_Iran


63.48
Kurd


63.55
Kurds










Distance
Maghrebi


30.90
Egyptian


35.23
Italian_Sicily


37.21
Palestinian


38.41
France_Corsica


42.14
Syrian_SW_Christian


42.38
Palestinian_Christian


43.65
Sardinian


50.65
Tajik_Herat


51.13
Lur_Iran


51.33
Tajik_Tajikistan


52.03
French


52.28
Kurd


53.38
Kurds


54.60
Tajiks


54.87
Tajik_Shughnan


56.07
Tajik_Ishkashim


56.25
English_North






Distance
Egyptian


10.49
Palestinian


15.94
Syrian_SW_Christian


16.33
Palestinian_Christian


26.19
Italian_Sicily


30.90
Maghrebi


30.93
Lur_Iran


32.28
Kurd


32.74
Kurds


40.45
Tajik_Herat


43.56
Tajik_Tajikistan


47.81
Tajiks


49.46
Tajik_Shughnan


49.86
Sardinian


50.68
Tajik_Ishkashim


59.84
French


62.13
English_South


63.61
English_North










Distance
Syrian_SW_Christian


1.05
Palestinian_Christian


7.56
Palestinian


15.94
Egyptian


24.23
Lur_Iran


24.28
Italian_Sicily


24.86
Kurds


25.27
Kurd


40.16
Tajik_Herat


42.14
Maghrebi


43.69
Tajik_Tajikistan


48.14
Tajiks


50.03
Tajik_Shughnan


50.44
Sardinian


51.43
Tajik_Ishkashim


62.25
French


64.78
English_South


66.33
English_North


















Distance
Kurd


2.69
Kurds


3.75
Lur_Iran


23.46
Tajik_Herat


23.69
Palestinian


25.01
Palestinian_Christian


25.27
Syrian_SW_Christian


27.67
Tajik_Tajikistan


30.42
Tajiks


32.28
Egyptian


32.33
Italian_Sicily


33.64
Tajik_Shughnan


34.71
Tajik_Ishkashim


52.28
Maghrebi


61.27
Sardinian


63.48
French


63.92
English_South


65.35
English_North














Distance
Palestinian_Christian


1.05
Syrian_SW_Christian


7.81
Palestinian


16.33
Egyptian


23.73
Italian_Sicily


24.01
Lur_Iran


24.52
Kurds


25.01
Kurd


39.95
Tajik_Herat


42.38
Maghrebi


43.35
Tajik_Tajikistan


47.88
Tajiks


49.66
Tajik_Shughnan


50.27
Sardinian


51.09
Tajik_Ishkashim


61.82
French


65.84
English_North






Distance
Palestinian


7.56
Syrian_SW_Christian


7.81
Palestinian_Christian


10.49
Egyptian


22.43
Lur_Iran


22.67
Italian_Sicily


23.69
Kurd


23.84
Kurds


35.52
Tajik_Herat


37.21
Maghrebi


39.05
Tajik_Tajikistan


43.36
Tajiks


45.27
Tajik_Shughnan


46.61
Tajik_Ishkashim


49.74
Sardinian


59.11
French


62.81
English_North

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">body,div,table,thead,tbody,tfoot,tr,th,td,p { font-family:"Liberation Sans"; font-size:x-small }a.comment-indicator:hover + comment { background:#ffd; position:absolute; display:block; border:1px solid black; padding:0.5em; }a.comment-indicator { background:red; display:inline-block; border:1px solid black; width:0.5em; height:0.5em; }comment { display:none; }</style>

[Steppe Timelord]

I didn't get why some levantine people were closer to Yagnobis than Sardinians till I did some modeling. Sardinians seem to be 95% ANF+WHG and the rest is steppe. Levantines lack WHG completely, have a lot of Levant_N, and more Iran_N+steppe. Makes sense that they aren't particularly close. Yaghnobis aren't very close either but they have Iran_N+steppe, have decent ANF(mainly from MLBA steppe), and also lack WHG. In the end they just barely edge out Sardinians in terms of distance as strange as it is.

they're more eastern but also southern, they have east med and west asian pulling them closer to yaghnobis, who share same iranian plateau DNA.

[Steppe Timelord]

That is odd. You are really more North and Eastern shifted than the norm for Palestinians I guess. I would expect a firmly Levant_CHL based individual to score closer to Sardinians.



Again odd as hell, as a Northwest African you should be closer to Sardinians, if even Iberians barely score Yagnobi. Makes me wonder if you don't have some of those Alan-Vandal genes which ended up in North Africa.

I always thought some of these Algerian, Tunisian traditional dresses looked oddly eastern similar to Iranic dresses.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/00/9c/44/009c44e460ce201cd9a2639c8b47ff94.jpg

Tajik
https://muhajabat.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/tajikistan_national_dress.jpg
https://media.againstthecompass.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/tajik-tashgurkan-1024x684.jpg


he's not northwest african, and neither heavily eastern european as he claimed numerous times. I can't buy it seeing his face, he looks more balkan.

[Leto]

Greensavannah is Moldovan-Ukrainian or as we say informally 'khokhol'. He is not North African, just larping because he is E-V13.

[Zoro]

Before going on to all sorts of theories to explain why in G25 N. Africans and NW Europeans are closer to Shugnan Tajiks than they are to Sardinians (whose large drift can cause them to show large distances) the 1st standard thing to do in science is to make sure the tool itself (G25) is not to blame by checking this with other tools such as Vahaduo and formal stats.

You guys do have access to Vahaduo Admixture calculators. What do they say about the distance of NW Europeans and N. Africans to Shugnan Tajiks vs Sardinians. Check that 1st.

While you check that, I'll see about checking formal stats and if the results do indeed show NW Europeans and N. Africans closer to Shugnans than Sardinians then I'm sure we can come up with threories to explain why.


Edit: When checking with Vahaduo just don't use a calculator that has either Tajiks or Sardinians as calculator references for a component just like you wouldn't use Dodecad k12 or Harappa to check Baloch distances since they are one of the components.

Also use a calculator that has a sufficient number of components to differentiate between closely related populations.

While you do that I try to get some qpWave results. It'll take me the better part of a day to do but I'll try to get it done.

Something tells me that when I get the formal stat results later today they'll show NW Africans and NW Europeans even further away from Tajiks and closer to Sardinians even more so than the Vahaduo results I posted on the previous page.

In fact when I think about it I wouldn't even be surprised if formal stat results show Levantines more similar to Sardinians than Tajiks since Levantines, Europeans, and NW Africans share alot of ENF ancestry with Sardinians but I don't want to rush to judgement till I see the results. If the results show otherwise, we can come up with theories to explain

[Leto]

Zoro, don't ruin every thread with your formal stats and all that shit. People don't know how the fuck to use it and don't seem be very interested in that either. They just wanna copy, paste and run their coordinates.

[Zoro]

Zoro, don't ruin every thread with your formal stats and all that shit. People don't know how the fuck to use it and don't seem be very interested in that either. They just wanna copy, paste and run their coordinates.

Hey if you want to close your eyes and condone shit that doesn't make sense then do as you please :) but there are alot of people interested to know why something doesn't make sense and get an explanation and there even are a few who actually want to learn more about genetics

I didn't tell anyone to run formal stats. I said that before people go off on wild tangents and start to come up with theories the standard thing in science in case you didn't know or care to know is to validate any unreasonable or even reasonable results using multiple methods.

That's why I offered to go through the trouble and verify G25 results with formal stats and if they agreed with G25 then we can start theorizing but to do otherwise would be dumb and reckless.

If you say someone is larping I don't doubt it but it still would be interesting to me and some to see how correct or off G25 results are.

BTW most people do know how to use Vahaduo calculators here

[Demhat]

Well the difference I was talking about is independent of the contents of ANF and Levant_N. There’s extra WHG ancestry in Neolithic Europe because ANF absorbed WHG after colonizing Europe. Neolithic Euros had varying amounts of HG(mainly WHG related) admixture. That’s what I was referring to.

ANF is not that far from Levant_N, I think it’s similar to CHG and Iran_N ie closely related. The problem though is that Sardinians are 80% ANF, Levantines are nowhere close as they have much more Iran_N and Levant_N instead. That combo makes them very different.

Also, I don’t believe that any North Africans are shifted towards Yaghnobis. That greensavannah guy is most likely not what he claims or he used someone else’s coordinates. Both Nassbean and Adam are decidedly closer to Sardinians, and there is absolutely no reason why other Maghrebis would not be the same.

I should have clarified my comment a little more. I meant ANF did not had extra WHG admixture in Anatolia. Early Neolithic Farmers in Europe also were like 90-95% ANF and 5-10% WHG. But starting with Middle/Late Neolithic it became more like 75-80% ANF and 20-25% WHG. Since Sardinians are descend of Late Neolithic Farmers. It makes sense that they a little more real WHG.

And as you pointed out Levantines are basically Levant_Bronze Age descend which is a mix of Levant Neolithic, Iranian Neolithic and some Anatolian Neolithic. Levant Calcolthic/Bronze Age is significantly Iran Neolithic/CHG shifted.

The results of that supposedly North African threw me off, since North Africans should be primarily from a Natufian like source with Taforalt and some ANF admixture.

[Chris596]

I didn't get why some levantine people were closer to Yagnobis than Sardinians till I did some modeling. Sardinians seem to be 95% ANF+WHG and the rest is steppe. Levantines lack WHG completely, have a lot of Levant_N, and more Iran_N+steppe. Makes sense that they aren't particularly close. Yaghnobis aren't very close either but they have Iran_N+steppe, have decent ANF(mainly from MLBA steppe), and also lack WHG. In the end they just barely edge out Sardinians in terms of distance as strange as it is.

I am just a bit closer to Sardinians than to Yaghnobis, and I'm a Balkanigga + Slavomongol. These two ethnicities are almost equidistant from me.

[EM78GREENSAVANNAH]

Greensavannah is Moldovan-Ukrainian or as we say informally 'khokhol'. He is not North African, just larping because he is E-V13.

But I feel North African

[Zoro]

Something tells me that when I get the formal stat results later today they'll show NW Africans and NW Europeans even further away from Tajiks and closer to Sardinians even more so than the Vahaduo results I posted on the previous page.

In fact when I think about it I wouldn't even be surprised if formal stat results show Levantines more similar to Sardinians than Tajiks since Levantines, Europeans, and NW Africans share alot of ENF ancestry with Sardinians but I don't want to rush to judgement till I see the results. If the results show otherwise, we can come up with theories to explain

Well well. It looks like my hunch was correct about G25 being off and also about Levantines (if you want to call Palestinians levantines) being closer to Sardinians than to Tajik.

This is the 1st batch of qpWave formal stats I have. I'll have Europeans and probably a couple of other Levantine pops for good measure later in the day. It will be interesting to see how far east you have to go in the middle east before Tajiks become closer than Sardinians. Kurds off course are much closer to Tajiks but that's a no brainer since both are Iranic. I would like to see with Levantines or other West Asians how far east you have to go before Tajiks become closer. We'll see I guess ...

The lower the Chisq (green) the more similar the 2 pops. For example parent-child would have a chisq under 20.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
SNPs


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
618885


Palestinian
753
1272
567301


Mozabite
1317
2652
523491

</tbody>

Reference pops (pright) used :
Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan
Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG
Papuan
DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS
Kostenki14
Onge_1000G
Anatolia_N_high
EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Surui
Kotias
Loschbour
Israel_C
KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS
Russia_Sunghir6
BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID
Ukraine_Mesolithic
Villabruna
YANA_UP_WGS

[Zoro]

Here's another prediction when the results come in. Europeans because of the shared steppe with tajiks will fall somewhere between kurds and palestinians while at the same time also being close to Sardinians. It will be interesting

[Cernunnos]

Distance to: Cernunnos_scaled
0.09298240 Sardinian
0.17142082 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 6.2638% / 0.06263814
Target: Cernunnos_scaled
69.9 Sardinian
30.1 Tajik_Yagnobi

What's so special with yagnobis and sogdians?

[Hamilcar]

Before going on to all sorts of theories to explain why in G25 N. Africans and NW Europeans are closer to Shugnan Tajiks than they are to Sardinians (whose large drift can cause them to show large distances) the 1st standard thing to do in science is to make sure the tool itself (G25) is not to blame by checking this with other tools such as Vahaduo and formal stats.

You guys do have access to Vahaduo Admixture calculators. What do they say about the distance of NW Europeans and N. Africans to Shugnan Tajiks vs Sardinians. Check that 1st.

While you check that, I'll see about checking formal stats and if the results do indeed show NW Europeans and N. Africans closer to Shugnans than Sardinians then I'm sure we can come up with threories to explain why.


Edit: When checking with Vahaduo just don't use a calculator that has either Tajiks or Sardinians as calculator references for a component just like you wouldn't use Dodecad k12 or Harappa to check Baloch distances since they are one of the components.

Also use a calculator that has a sufficient number of components to differentiate between closely related populations.

While you do that I try to get some qpWave results. It'll take me the better part of a day to do but I'll try to get it done.

where have you seen that North africans are closer to tadjiks ?

[Trouble]

Well well. It looks like my hunch was correct about G25 being off and also about Levantines (if you want to call Palestinians levantines) being closer to Sardinians than to Tajik.

This is the 1st batch of qpWave formal stats I have. I'll have Europeans and probably a couple of other Levantine pops for good measure later in the day. It will be interesting to see how far east you have to go in the middle east before Tajiks become closer than Sardinians. Kurds off course are much closer to Tajiks but that's a no brainer since both are Iranic. I would like to see with Levantines or other West Asians how far east you have to go before Tajiks become closer. We'll see I guess ...

The lower the Chisq (green) the more similar the 2 pops. For example parent-child would have a chisq under 20.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
SNPs


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
618885


Palestinian
753
1272
567301


Mozabite
1317
2652
523491

</tbody>

Reference pops (pright) used :
Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan
Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG
Papuan
DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS
Kostenki14
Onge_1000G
Anatolia_N_high
EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Surui
Kotias
Loschbour
Israel_C
KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS
Russia_Sunghir6
BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID
Ukraine_Mesolithic
Villabruna
YANA_UP_WGS

I’d be interested to know too. The two Palestinian members here are unusually northern shifted and score closer to Lebanese than average Palis, who are more southern shifted.

Also, did you use Shugnanis for the Tajik reference?

[Trouble]

Ok so here's the thing, it varies depending on the Pamiri Tajik reference used.

Distance to: Palestinian
0.16334766 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.17370639 Sardinian
0.18862739 Tajik_Shugnan

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.14529992 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15635020 Sardinian
0.17562981 Tajik_Shugnan

There are some small but important differences between these two populations:

Target: Tajik_Yagnobi
Distance: 2.2379% / 0.02237867
41.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 TUR_Barcin_N
6.4 Mongola
0.4 Paniya

Target: Tajik_Shugnan
Distance: 2.0747% / 0.02074723
45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 TUR_Barcin_N
8.2 Paniya
7.2 Mongola

Shugnanis have a much higher S Asian shift, slightly higher E Asian shift, less ANF and even Iran_N, and more steppe. Overall a noticeably more eastern shifted population than Yaghnobis. If you have Yaghnobis, use them instead to keep an equal comparison with G25.

[Leto]

Ok so here's the thing, it varies depending on the Pamiri Tajik reference used.

Distance to: Palestinian
0.16334766 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.17370639 Sardinian
0.18862739 Tajik_Shugnan

Distance to: Lebanese_Druze
0.14529992 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.15635020 Sardinian
0.17562981 Tajik_Shugnan

There are some small but important differences between these two populations:

Target: Tajik_Yagnobi
Distance: 2.2379% / 0.02237867
41.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
30.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
21.4 TUR_Barcin_N
6.4 Mongola
0.4 Paniya

Target: Tajik_Shugnan
Distance: 2.0747% / 0.02074723
45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
24.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
14.6 TUR_Barcin_N
8.2 Paniya
7.2 Mongola

Shugnanis have a much higher S Asian shift, slightly higher E Asian shift, less ANF and even Iran_N, and more steppe. Overall a noticeably more eastern shifted population than Yaghnobis. If you have Yaghnobis, use them instead to keep an equal comparison with G25.
What about the Tajik national average? Some people are oblivious to the fact that barely 5% of the population lives in Kuhistani Badakhshan (Gorno-Badakhshan).

[Trouble]

What about the Tajik national average? Some people are oblivious to the fact that barely 5% of the population lives in Kuhistani Badakhshan (Gorno-Badakhshan).

Yes, I was just about to write about that. These Pamiris(yaghnobis, Ishakishm, Rushan, Shugnan) should never be confused with regular Persian-speaking Tajiks from Tajikistan or Afghanistan. Average Tajikistani Tajiks score like this:


Target: Tajik
Distance: 2.1033% / 0.02103314
36.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 Mongola
5.0 Paniya

Less steppe and a lot more Mongoloid, but overall seems to be the same base of ancestry. I don't think any users aside from those from the Iranian plateau or further east will get regular Tajiks before Sardinians.

[Leto]

This is my result

Distance to: Leto_scaled
0.14927807 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.19917040 Sardinian

[Leto]

Yes, I was just about to write about that. These Pamiris(yaghnobis, Ishakishm, Rushan, Shugnan) should never be confused with regular Persian-speaking Tajiks from Tajikistan or Afghanistan. Average Tajikistani Tajiks score like this:


Target: Tajik
Distance: 2.1033% / 0.02103314
36.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 Mongola
5.0 Paniya

Less steppe and a lot more Mongoloid, but overall seems to be the same base of ancestry. I don't think any users aside from those from the Iranian plateau or further east will get regular Tajiks before Sardinians.
I think Western TJK may have substantial Persian ancestry from the medieval era. By Western I mean everything that is not Badakhshan. Too bad only one Tajik average is available, even on Gedmatch we now have several different references.

[Zoro]

I’d be interested to know too. The two Palestinian members here are unusually northern shifted and score closer to Lebanese than average Palis, who are more southern shifted.

Also, did you use Shugnanis for the Tajik reference?

The Tajik description says Tajikistan Tajiks published in Damgaard 2018

Here's the results so far. The last batch should include some eastern Europeans and a couple more W. and SC Asians


<colgroup><col style="width: 100px"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
SNPs



Kurd-Iraq
806
228
618885


French
320
590
608328


Finnish
442
788
579850


Jordanian
705
988
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
567301


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
523491

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

[Trouble]

The Tajik description says Tajikistan Tajiks published in Damgaard 2018

Here's the results so far. The last batch should include some eastern Europeans and a couple more W. and SC Asians


<colgroup><col style="width: 100px"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
SNPs



Kurd-Iraq
806
228
618885


French
320
590
608328


Finnish
442
788
579850


Jordanian
705
988
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
567301


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
523491

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

How are Palestinians even further from them(tajiks) than Jordanians are? That makes no sense.

[Maguzanci]

The Tajik description says Tajikistan Tajiks published in Damgaard 2018

Here's the results so far. The last batch should include some eastern Europeans and a couple more W. and SC Asians


<colgroup><col style="width: 100px"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
SNPs



Kurd-Iraq
806
228
618885


French
320
590
608328


Finnish
442
788
579850


Jordanian
705
988
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
567301


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
523491

</tbody>
<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>

Can you also include some Uralics like Saami, Udmurt, Mari, please?

[Zoro]

Can you also include some Uralics like Saami, Udmurt, Mari, please?

Ok. Next on the list are also Estonians, Bulgarians, Armenians, Volga Tatars, Turkish-Kayseri, and a couple of others

[altaic]

70/30

Distance: 6.0823% / 0.06082310
Target: Altaic_scaled
70.3 Tajik_Yagnobi
29.7 Sardinian

[someonenotyou]

Target:
Distance: 8.4305% / 0.08430510
51.6 Tajik_Yagnobi
48.4 Sardinian

Distance to:
0.13892787 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.14490825 Sardinian

[Demhat]

Well well. It looks like my hunch was correct about G25 being off and also about Levantines (if you want to call Palestinians levantines) being closer to Sardinians than to Tajik.

This is the 1st batch of qpWave formal stats I have. I'll have Europeans and probably a couple of other Levantine pops for good measure later in the day. It will be interesting to see how far east you have to go in the middle east before Tajiks become closer than Sardinians. Kurds off course are much closer to Tajiks but that's a no brainer since both are Iranic. I would like to see with Levantines or other West Asians how far east you have to go before Tajiks become closer. We'll see I guess ...

The lower the Chisq (green) the more similar the 2 pops. For example parent-child would have a chisq under 20.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
SNPs


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
618885


Palestinian
753
1272
567301


Mozabite
1317
2652
523491

</tbody>

Reference pops (pright) used :
Y_Simm_Jo_Hoan
Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG
Papuan
DEVILS_GATE_N_WGS
Kostenki14
Onge_1000G
Anatolia_N_high
EHG_I0061_ATLAS_DP2
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Surui
Kotias
Loschbour
Israel_C
KOLYMA_MESOL_WGS
Russia_Sunghir6
BOTAI_EN_DIPLOID
Ukraine_Mesolithic
Villabruna
YANA_UP_WGS

It's easy to say the more Iran_Neo/CHG/EHG shifted the closer to Tajiks the more ANF or Levant_Neo (not Levant_CHL/Bronze Age) the closer to Sardinians. So it is no wonder that Northern and Eastern European samples are basically like 50/50 or slightly closer to Tajiks (case for some East Europeans). While South Euros are more distant from Tajik and far closer to Sardinian.

[Demhat]

Yes, I was just about to write about that. These Pamiris(yaghnobis, Ishakishm, Rushan, Shugnan) should never be confused with regular Persian-speaking Tajiks from Tajikistan or Afghanistan. Average Tajikistani Tajiks score like this:


Target: Tajik
Distance: 2.1033% / 0.02103314
36.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
14.2 Mongola
5.0 Paniya

Less steppe and a lot more Mongoloid, but overall seems to be the same base of ancestry. I don't think any users aside from those from the Iranian plateau or further east will get regular Tajiks before Sardinians.

In my opinion Caucasus folks, Mesopotamians and most Anatolians will be closer to Yaghnobis.

[Trouble]

In my opinion Caucasus folks, Mesopotamians and most Anatolians will be closer to Yaghnobis.

Given that Levantines themselves are closer to Yaghobis there’s no reason those other groups you mentioned shouldn’t be as well. The only people in West Asia which might differ are probably some people in far western Turkey and Arabians.

[Zoro]

I finally got the remaining results.

There really should be 3 different columns. 1st is distance from Sardianian. 2nd distance from Tajik. 3rd column Tajik vs Sardinian shift.

Lower the number the closer the population. Darker green closer. Darker red further.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="139"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="115"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
Ratio Tajik/Sardinian shift
SNPs


Pashtun-Pk
1349
108
0.08
544167


Turkmen-Tkm
1320
252
0.19
619316


Tatar_Volga
1000
202
0.20
620701


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
0.28
618885


Saami
984
303
0.31
552081


Iranian-Fars
777
308
0.40
546128


Lezgin
1078
575
0.53
548709


Russia_NorthOssetian
818
533
0.65
546812


Turkish_Kayseri
324
238
0.73
608085


Mansi
1194
980
0.82
548610


Estonian
898
1095
1.22
549970


Armenian
551
743
1.35
547336


Jordanian
705
988
1.40
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
1.69
567301


Finnish
442
788
1.78
579850


French
320
590
1.84
608328


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
2.01
523491

</tbody>

[Impaler]

Distance to: Impaler_scaled
0.10473247 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.13827114 Sardinian


Target: Impaler_scaled
Distance: 4.1192% / 0.04119163
57.8 Tajik_Yagnobi
42.2 Sardinian

[gixajo]

The Tajik description says Tajikistan Tajiks published in Damgaard 2018


style>

Could you me us what exactly is "Chisq"?

[Zoro]

Could you me us what exactly is "Chisq"?

Chisq is proportional to p-value https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-squared_test in qpWave and qpAdm. It tests the null hypothesis that there’s no statistical difference between the 2 populations ( Tajiks or Sardinians and the pop listed in column 1). If there’s no difference p-value gets close to 1 and chisq close to 0.

For example if we test parent - child chisq would be under 20.

In this case we see in Levant and Europe chisq is lower for Sardinians than Tajik meaning they’re closer to Sardinians.

While others such as Turkics/Iranics are closer to Tajiks.

3rd column in table shows how strong the Tajik shift is in comparison to Sardinians

I

[Zoro]

I finally got the remaining results.

There really should be 3 different columns. 1st is distance from Sardianian. 2nd distance from Tajik. 3rd column Tajik vs Sardinian shift.

Lower the number the closer the population. Darker green closer. Darker red further.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="139"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="115"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
Ratio Tajik/Sardinian shift
SNPs


Pashtun-Pk
1349
108
0.08
544167


Turkmen-Tkm
1320
252
0.19
619316


Tatar_Volga
1000
202
0.20
620701


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
0.28
618885


Saami
984
303
0.31
552081


Iranian-Fars
777
308
0.40
546128


Lezgin
1078
575
0.53
548709


Russia_NorthOssetian
818
533
0.65
546812


Turkish_Kayseri
324
238
0.73
608085


Mansi
1194
980
0.82
548610


Estonian
898
1095
1.22
549970


Armenian
551
743
1.35
547336


Jordanian
705
988
1.40
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
1.69
567301


Finnish
442
788
1.78
579850


French
320
590
1.84
608328


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
2.01
523491

</tbody>

Sometimes language is not the best predictor of genetics. Here we see there are 2 populations closer to Tajikistan Tajiks than kurds are to them: Pashtun and Tatars even though Tatars are not linguistically Iranic.

[gixajo]

Sometimes language is not the best predictor of genetics. Here we see there are 2 populations closer to Tajikistan Tajiks than kurds are to them: Pashtun and Tatars even though Tatars are not linguistically Iranic.

I am not very sure if what you are showing is exactly closeness between them.

[Token]

I finally got the remaining results.

There really should be 3 different columns. 1st is distance from Sardianian. 2nd distance from Tajik. 3rd column Tajik vs Sardinian shift.

Lower the number the closer the population. Darker green closer. Darker red further.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="139"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="115"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
Ratio Tajik/Sardinian shift
SNPs


Pashtun-Pk
1349
108
0.08
544167


Turkmen-Tkm
1320
252
0.19
619316


Tatar_Volga
1000
202
0.20
620701


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
0.28
618885


Saami
984
303
0.31
552081


Iranian-Fars
777
308
0.40
546128


Lezgin
1078
575
0.53
548709


Russia_NorthOssetian
818
533
0.65
546812


Turkish_Kayseri
324
238
0.73
608085


Mansi
1194
980
0.82
548610


Estonian
898
1095
1.22
549970


Armenian
551
743
1.35
547336


Jordanian
705
988
1.40
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
1.69
567301


Finnish
442
788
1.78
579850


French
320
590
1.84
608328


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
2.01
523491

</tbody>
Literally no one uses qpWave like this. You've only shown that there is at least one stream of ancestry from pright to pleft for each pair of populations and nothing more.

[Zoro]

............

[Zoro]

Literally no one uses qpWave like this. You've only shown that there is at least one stream of ancestry from pright to pleft for each pair of populations and nothing more.

Wrong. You’re a little smarter than alot of people here but you’re behind the times. In this mode qpWave has become one of the most powerful tools for finding out whether 2 source pops form a clade. Much more powerful than Dstats because it uses dozens of dstats using all the references in pright. If both sources are identical then they are equally related to all references and pvslue becomes close to 1 and chisq close to 0.

Harvard and all leading researchers including EurasianDNA uses it. To learn more google “qpwave clade”

Here’s an example table 2 and table 5 in https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714/DC1/embed/media-1.pdf?download=true

[gixajo]

Literally no one uses qpWave like this. You've only shown that there is at least one stream of ancestry from pright to pleft for each pair of populations and nothing more.

I think he could use qpWave to show this, but not in this way.

So better don´t get very serious about all this, take it just as a game to have some fun, and do not start with absurd "scientific" discussions, that end up being nothing more than a duel of egos.

[Token]

Wrong. You’re a little smarter than alot of people here but you’re behind the times. In this mode qpWave has become one of the most powerful tools for finding out whether 2 source pops form a clade. Much more powerful than Dstats because it uses dozens of dstats using all the references in pright. If both sources are identical then they are equally related to all references and pvslue becomes close to 1 and chisq close to 0.

Harvard and all leading researchers including EurasianDNA uses it. To learn more google “qpwave clade”

Here’s an example table 2 in https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/03/21/584714/DC1/embed/media-1.pdf?download=true

Nonsense. Table 2 doesn't ranks clades in function of p-values like you did, it only rejects the ones that have p-values below the threshold. There is no bijection between lower chisq and genetic relatedness, qpWave is only used to reject models and not to sort or even accept them. You babble so much about formal statistics yet your methodology is as unfounded as the one used by G25.

[Zoro]

I think he could use qpWave to show this, but not in this way.

So better don´t get very serious about all this, take it just as a game to have some fun, and do not start with absurd "scientific" discussions, that end up being nothing more than a duel of egos.

Tell that to Harvard. Stop being lazy and start reading scientific papers

[Zoro]

Nonsense. Table 2 doesn't ranks clades in function of p-values like you did, it only rejects the ones that have p-values below the threshold. There is no bijection between lower chisq and genetic relatedness, qpWave is only used to reject models and not to sort or even accept them. You babble so much about formal statistics yet your methodology is as unfounded as the ones used by G25 and GEDmatch.

Stop babbling nonsense and read the whole paper. Eurasian DNA constantly communicates with Harvard and they’re very strict when it comes to analysis.


From that same paper

qpWave clade analysis
We used qpWave30 from ADMIXTOOLS31 to cluster individuals. We used a p>0.01 threshold as a criterion for clustering, allsnps:YES, and the following “Right” populations:

Mbuti.DG, Ust_Ishim, CHG, EHG, ElMiron, Vestonice16, MA1, Israel_Natufian, Jordan_PPNB, Anatolia_Neolithic, WHG, Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic, Yamnaya_Samara
The results of this analysis are presented in Fig. 3 and summarized below. Pairs of individuals that passed this qpWave analysis at the p>0.01 threshold and were from the same region and chronological period were lumped for analysis with a few exceptions.
After identifying all pairs of chronologically/geographically grouped individuals that gave evidence of being different in ancestry at the p<0.01 level, we further tested them using the same method for a difference in ancestry compared to other individuals in the grouping.



And here https://rdrr.io/github/uqrmaie1/admixtools/man/qpwave.html


Description

qpwave compares two sets of populations (left and right) to each other. It estimates a lower bound on the number of admixtue waves that went from left into right, by comparing a matrix of f4-statistics to low-rank approximations. For a rank of 0 this is equivalent to testing whether left and right form clades relative to each other.

[Token]

Stop babbling nonsense and read the whole paper. Eurasian DNA constantly communicates with Harvard and they’re very strict when it comes to analysis.

.

The quote is beautifully summarized by my first sentence. Your 'innovative' way to use qpWave remains unfounded until EurasianDNA aka Dilawer aka Zoro publishes a paper (not gonna happen) proving its consistency.

[Zoro]

The quote is beautifully summarized by my first sentence. Your 'innovative' way to use qpWave remains unfounded until EurasianDNA aka Dilawer aka Zoro publishes a paper (not gonna happen) proving its consistency.

Stop being so stubborn and start reading papers and babbling garbage. There's no way you can win this argument. As the borg say:


RESISTANCE IS FUTILE


The Mongolian paper also used it Look at their heat map Figure S7 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)31321-0?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com %2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420313210%3Fshowall%3D true


Comparing genetic homogeneity between ancient Mongol individuals and seven present-day Mongolic-speaking populations using qpWave. We report the p-value for every individual-based qpWave {ancient Mongol individual; Mongolic group} using seven modern Mongolic-speaking populations: Buryat, Daur, Kalmyk, Khamnegan, Mongol, Mongola, and Tu in the Human Origins dataset. When the p-value from qpWave is > 0.05, it suggests that the ancient individual on the y axis is genetically indistinguishable from the modern Mongolic-speaking population shown on the x axis. Smaller p-values indicate that the ancient individual is significantly different from the modern group.

[gixajo]

Tell that to Harvard. Stop being lazy and start reading scientific papers

Why do you take this in a personal way?

Is it necessary to enter those types of comments to support your point?

As for the"scientific papers" and Harvard, I don't know what you are talking about, because I have just commented that what you have done with qpW does not show what you say it shows.

But if you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm not going to make an effort to expand my point after your last answer.

Happy new year.:thumb001:

[Zoro]

Why do you take this in a personal way?

Is it necessary to enter those types of comments to support your point?

As for the"scientific papers" and Harvard, I don't know what you are talking about, because I have just commented that what you have done with qpW does not show what you say it shows.

But if you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm not going to make an effort to expand my point after your last answer.

Happy new year.:thumb001:

If Harvard and all other leading researchers are using it that way that's what counts. What you think is IRRELEVANT.

[Token]

Stop being so stubborn and start reading papers and babbling garbage. There's no way you can win this argument. As the borg say:




The Mongolian paper also used it Look at their heat map Figure S7 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)31321-0?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com %2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867420313210%3Fshowall%3D true

Again, nothing saying that lower chisq implies closer genetic relatedness. Go breath some fresh air and try again.

[Zoro]

Again, nothing saying that lower chisq implies closer genetic relatedness. Go breath some fresh air and try again.

P-value is inversely proportional to chisq. Wow I can’t believe you didn’t know this. Look at the pvalue vs chisq chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-squared_test

Are you blind. It's like arguing with 6 year olds. What does the bold text imply?


Comparing genetic homogeneity between ancient Mongol individuals and seven present-day Mongolic-speaking populations using qpWave. We report the p-value for every individual-based qpWave {ancient Mongol individual; Mongolic group} using seven modern Mongolic-speaking populations: Buryat, Daur, Kalmyk, Khamnegan, Mongol, Mongola, and Tu in the Human Origins dataset. When the p-value from qpWave is > 0.05, it suggests that the ancient individual on the y axis is genetically indistinguishable from the modern Mongolic-speaking population shown on the x axis. Smaller p-values indicate that the ancient individual is significantly different from the modern group.

[Token]

P-value is inversely proportional to chisq. Wow I can’t believe you didn’t know this. Look at the pvalue vs chisq chart here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi-squared_test

I did know this, that's why i've been using p-value and chisq interchangeably - one is a function of the other. Let me reword it for you: none of your quotes confirms your assumption that higher p-value implies closer genetic relatedness. Repeating myself, qpWave doesn't sorts or accept models, it rejects the ones that doesn't works. I'm done with you here.

[Token]

Are you blind. It's like arguing with 6 year olds. What does the bold text imply?
Smaller in your quote means smaller than 0.05. Cringe.

[Zoro]

Smaller in your quote means smaller than 0.05. Cringe.

Exactly. The smaller the pvalue (the larger the chisq) the less related the 2 source populations. That's is why if you use qpWave to model yourself with your parent you'll get a pvalue > 0.05 (chisq <20) but if you model yourself with an African your pvalue will be infinitisimally small (chisq in the thousands).

[Zoro]

I finally got the remaining results.

There really should be 3 different columns. 1st is distance from Sardianian. 2nd distance from Tajik. 3rd column Tajik vs Sardinian shift.

Lower the number the closer the population. Darker green closer. Darker red further.

<style type="text/css">td {border: 1px solid #ccc;}br {mso-data-placement:same-cell;}</style>
<colgroup><col width="139"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="115"><col width="62"></colgroup><tbody>
QpWave Rank=0 Chisq values


POP
Sardinian
Tajik
Ratio Tajik/Sardinian shift
SNPs


Pashtun-Pk
1349
108
0.08
544167


Turkmen-Tkm
1320
252
0.19
619316


Tatar_Volga
1000
202
0.20
620701


Kurd-Iraq
806
228
0.28
618885


Saami
984
303
0.31
552081


Iranian-Fars
777
308
0.40
546128


Lezgin
1078
575
0.53
548709


Russia_NorthOssetian
818
533
0.65
546812


Turkish_Kayseri
324
238
0.73
608085


Mansi
1194
980
0.82
548610


Estonian
898
1095
1.22
549970


Armenian
551
743
1.35
547336


Jordanian
705
988
1.40
568851


Palestinian
753
1,272
1.69
567301


Finnish
442
788
1.78
579850


French
320
590
1.84
608328


Mozabite
1,317
2,652
2.01
523491

</tbody>

And that's why Tajik has smaller chisq (higher pvalue) with Iranics than with Mozabite

[Leto]

Zoro knows how to hijack a thread about G25 and turn it into his own "real science".

[Zoro]

Zoro knows how to hijack a thread about G25 and turn it into his own "real science".


I don't turn a blind eye when i see something wrong. I say something whether you like it or not haha

It's kind of like someone beating up a helpless guy and the crowd not doing anything.

[andre]

Distance to: Andre_scaled
0.13006600 Sardinian
0.13795123 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Andre_scaled
Distance: 7.0171% / 0.07017066
52.0 Sardinian
48.0 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Dr_Maul]

Anyway no surprises here

Distance to: DrMaul
0.07610938 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.20453962 Sardinian

Distance: 6.7482% / 0.06748155
Target: DrMaul
84.6 Tajik_Yagnobi
15.4 Sardinian

[InfamousAngel99]

Distance to: InfAng99
0.15017338 Sardinian
0.15535531 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 10.1504% / 0.10150432
Target: InfAng99
51.5 Sardinian
48.5 Tajik_Yagnobi


Only slightly closer to Sardinians, even though I've gotten Sardinian on multiple DNA tests (I don't know where it's coming from, tbh).

[Trouble]

Distance to: InfAng99
0.15017338 Sardinian
0.15535531 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 10.1504% / 0.10150432
Target: InfAng99
51.5 Sardinian
48.5 Tajik_Yagnobi


Only slightly closer to Sardinians, even though I've gotten Sardinian on multiple DNA tests (I don't know where it's coming from, tbh).

What is your ancestry?

[kleenex]

Distance to: Anthony_C_scaled
0.10269445 Sardinian
0.15136160 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance: 5.4464% / 0.05446450
Target: Anthony_C_scaled
61.9 Sardinian
38.1 Tajik_Yagnobi

[gixajo]

If Harvard and all other leading researchers are using it that way that's what counts. What you think is IRRELEVANT.

Not exactly, but it doesn't matter.:thumb001:

[gixajo]

Distance to:,,,,,,,,,,,,

Sorry, It was not for you.:picard1: