France [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Samnium

01-12-2021, 09:18 PM

No region of France is classified as northern Europe.

Culturally they have more in common with other southern Europeans than with hardcore northern Europeans like Scandos.

Remote to both.

But Southern France is miles closer to Southern Europe culturally, not Northern France.

Britanny, Normandy, Pas-de-Calais, Alsace... have cultures tied either to British Islands, Belgium, Germany, so culturally they might be equidistant from both. Or closer.

French Alps are also a whole different thing, they have simply an "alpine culture" that is completely disconnected from this southern/northern distinction.

Samnium

01-12-2021, 09:19 PM

Middle. France is transitional. Northern region borders UK, Belgium, Netherlands and southern region borders Spain, Italy. You simply cant place France in one group.

I agree, we are in our own case, and that's why also France has been so important for european history. At the crossroads of all Western Europe.

PaleoEuropean

01-12-2021, 09:21 PM

They are more in just the Atlantic sphere in general. I think Southern Europe is a relative term, Italy is more Central Europe in terms of economy, industry and trade and France and Iberia are more Western/Atlantic.

Sebastianus Rex

01-12-2021, 09:41 PM

Remote to both.

But Southern France is miles closer to Southern Europe culturally, not Northern France.

Britanny, Normandy, Pas-de-Calais, Alsace... have cultures tied either to British Islands, Belgium, Germany, so culturally they might be equidistant from both. Or closer.

French Alps are also a whole different thing, they have simply an "alpine culture" that is completely disconnected from this southern/northern distinction.

Really ?

French are catholic from north to south ( that's more in common with S.Europe)
French have rich gastronomy and like to dedicate time to eat well with family and friends (that's shared by other s.euro nations, in northern europe they are very frugal, less family oriented and gastronomy is poor)
French love wine and are masters of that production, only southern euro countries approach that wine culture.
French kiss slot, it's even common males greet each other by kissing in the cheek, that's also only somewhat common in southern Europe.
Speak a Latin language...and don't tell me about celtic dialects in Bretagne, Flemish in the north and germanic in Alsace because nowadays nobody speaks it.

Generally in terms of culture and way of life the french have definitely more in common with other south euros, now you can tell me that nowadays people eat more fast food, are more Americanized, families ties are getting weaker, religion has no longer a big influence and people don't get 2 hour lunch breaks to go home a prepare a fine meal, society is changing everywhere, that is also the case in southern Europeans countries...but I am talking about the traditional aspects of the culture and way of living.

Rædwald

01-12-2021, 09:43 PM

We have had this conversation so many times, it's transitional it doesn't fit well into either.

Tooting Carmen

01-12-2021, 09:44 PM

PhenotypeMaster

01-12-2021, 09:46 PM

Really ?

French are catholic from north to south ( that's more in common with S.Europe)
French have rich gastronomy and like to dedicate time to eat well with family and friends (that's shared by other s.euro nations, in northern europe they are very frugal, less family oriented and gastronomy is poor)
French love wine and are masters of that production, only southern euro countries approach that wine culture.
French kiss slot, it's even common males greet each other by kissing in the cheek, that's also only somewhat common in southern Europe.
Speak a Latin language...and don't tell me about celtic dialects in Bretagne, Flemish in the north and germanic in Alsace because nowadays nobody speaks it.

Generally in terms of culture and way of life the french have definitely more in common with other south euros, now you can tell me that nowadays people eat more fast food, are more Americanized, families ties are getting weaker, religion has no longer a big influence and people don't get 2 hour lunch breaks to go home a prepare a fine meal, society is changing everywhere, that is also the case in southern Europeans countries...but I am talking about the traditional aspects of the culture and way of living.

You make a very good point.

Samnium

01-12-2021, 10:09 PM

Really ?

French are catholic from north to south ( that's more in common with S.Europe)

Well, Catholicism is also fairly spread in Switzerland, Austria, Ireland ... I don't know where's your point.

French have rich gastronomy and like to dedicate time to eat well with family and friends (that's shared by other s.euro nations, in northern europe they are very frugal, less family oriented and gastronomy is poor)

It's very binary, I think what you've described would be true for Scandinavia, but there are countries in N.Europe that doesn't fit this idea. Also, the upper part of French is less family oriented than south so...

Speak a Latin language...and don't tell me about celtic dialects in Bretagne, Flemish in the north and germanic in Alsace because nowadays nobody speaks it.

Culturally it may be the strongest tie, I agree, but culture isn't only language.

Generally in terms of culture and way of life the french have definitely more in common with other south euros

Not really, and I speak as a French, we are in our own case... French have a very different behavior than from Southern Euros, I can say that.

Our culture is neither northern or southern, and I wouldn't agree that's closer to Southern Euros, definitely not.

Sebastianus Rex

01-12-2021, 11:29 PM

Well, Catholicism is also fairly spread in Switzerland, Austria, Ireland ... I don't know where's your point.

It's very binary, I think what you've described would be true for Scandinavia, but there are countries in N.Europe that doesn't fit this idea. Also, the upper part of French is less family oriented than south so...

Culturally it may be the strongest tie, I agree, but culture isn't only language.

Not really, and I speak as a French, we are in our own case... French have a very different behavior than from Southern Euros, I can say that.

Our culture is neither northern or southern, and I wouldn't agree that's closer to Southern Euros, definitely not.

So if not, can you please describe what are the traditional cultural aspects and of the way of live wich makes french closer to northern Europeans than to southern euros?

Tooting Carmen

01-12-2021, 11:32 PM

So if not, can you please describe what are the traditional cultural aspects and of the way of live wich makes french closer to northern Europeans than to southern euros?

Although ultimately people vary most as individuals, by and large I'd say the French are more serious and reserved compared to actual Southern Europeans.

Sebastianus Rex

01-13-2021, 12:00 AM

Although ultimately people vary most as individuals, by and large I'd say the French are more serious and reserved compared to actual Southern Europeans.

And the Irish are more loud mouthed and prone to party than most southern euros, what's the point ?

People in Portugal are perhaps even more reserved than the french.

Honestly I would like to know what for example the french have in common with english or norwegians regarding the way they eat, drink, socialize, and their language, religion, cultural references, wich makes them closer to those peoples than to the average southern euro? ...if you can see beyon of the stereotype that southern euros are all like the caricatures of sicilians, neapolitans or andalusians, wich is totally BS.

I live in a place with lots of expats from many countries (the french and Brit communities are very large), and the french don't get along and rarely socialize with northern euros, they don't form the same circles of friendship. I see the french socializing with other french ofc but also swiss, belgians (because of the language) and to a lesser extend with Portuguese and italians. Very rarely I see french socializing with northern euros, they even make fun about the typical way they eat and drink and how the british behave.

like wine and water...

gixajo

01-13-2021, 12:00 AM

Although ultimately people vary most as individuals, by and large I'd say the French are more serious and reserved compared to actual Southern Europeans.

Portuguese are serious and reserved, they should be considered northern Europe too.

Do you think Irish people is more serious and reserved than average English people?

gixajo

01-13-2021, 12:01 AM

And the Irish are more loud mouthed and prone to party than most southern euros, what's the point ?

And you Portugueses, are also quite serious and reserved.

Aren

01-13-2021, 12:31 AM

Well, Catholicism is also fairly spread in Switzerland, Austria, Ireland ... I don't know where's your point.

It's very binary, I think what you've described would be true for Scandinavia, but there are countries in N.Europe that doesn't fit this idea. Also, the upper part of French is less family oriented than south so...

Culturally it may be the strongest tie, I agree, but culture isn't only language.

Not really, and I speak as a French, we are in our own case... French have a very different behavior than from Southern Euros, I can say that.

Our culture is neither northern or southern, and I wouldn't agree that's closer to Southern Euros, definitely not.

I never understand why the French gastronomy is usually brought up as proof of their "southerness". The modern day Scandinavian, British, German, Dutch etc everyday dining is pretty much French-based. Simple meals include a protein, usually beef served with potatoes, either boiled, baked or as pommes château and with a cream-butter based sauce.

gixajo

01-13-2021, 12:33 AM

This message is hidden because Aren is on your ignore list.
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Oh, it´s true, I ignored Aren some days ago.

Sebastianus Rex

01-13-2021, 12:57 AM

I never understand why the French gastronomy is usually brought up as proof of their "southerness". The modern day Scandinavian, British, German, Dutch etc everyday dining is pretty much French-based. Simple meals include a protein, usually beef served with potatoes, either boiled, baked or as pommes château and with a cream-butter based sauce.

Following your reasoning Italian cuisine can not be southern European because norwegians typically eat pasta and pizza during the weekend.

I was talking about the traditional cuisines.

Nowadays most cuisines are being fusioned and many people end up eating differently from the traditional gastronomy of their countries. Also because of the american fast food influence, internet etc, people across the world end up eating much more similarly than a couple of generations ago. It's globalization, the members of my family in their 20's eat way more sushi, pasta, pizza and burgers than they do traditional Portuguese dishes, traditional cuisine is being put behind because it requires alot of work and preparation, not compatible with the modern life and desire of instant gratification.

And btw since when a steak and potatoes is particularly french cuisine? All cuisines around the world have similar simple meat dishes (a steak is something very simple), red meat was not even widely consumed in Europe until a few decades ago...potatos and alot of other ingredients/foods were introduced from the americas and asia during the age discoveries (mostly by the Portuguese and Spanish). Can you imagine Italian cuisine without tomatoes?

Aren

01-13-2021, 01:58 AM

Following your reasoning Italian cuisine can not be southern European because norwegians typically eat pasta and pizza during the weekend.

I was talking about the traditional cuisines.

Nowadays most cuisines are being fusioned and many people end up eating differently from the traditional gastronomy of their countries. Also because of the american fast food influence, internet etc, people across the world end up eating much more similarly than a couple of generations ago. It's globalization, the members of my family in their 20's eat way more sushi, pasta, pizza and burgers than they do traditional Portuguese dishes, traditional cuisine is being put behind because it requires alot of work and preparation, not compatible with the modern life and desire of instant gratification.

And btw since when a steak and potatoes is particularly french cuisine? All cuisines around the world have similar simple meat dishes (a steak is something very simple), red meat was not even widely consumed in Europe until a few decades ago...potatos and alot of other ingredients/foods were introduced from the americas and asia during the age discoveries (mostly by the Portuguese and Spanish). Can you imagine Italian cuisine without tomatoes?

Using gastronomy as a way to link certain people in the modern era with one and other does not work for the reasons you bring up. The thing is though modern day Western household dining is based on the French kitchen. So to use it as a way to prove the southerness of the French cuisine is a bit odd, especially considering what defines the French gastronomy namely the Haute-Cuisine with it's complicated methods, butter based sauces, small meals etc hardly makes you think of southern Europe. Italian and Spanish cuisine is simple in technique, colorful and family friendly. That's not exactly what comes to mind when you think of the French cuisine.

Immanenz

01-13-2021, 02:10 AM

Using gastronomy as a way to link certain people in the modern era with one and other does not work for the reasons you bring up.

In France there is the saying "savoire vivre"- to know how to life- this is totally against the mindset of a German- in a way you have to "figure out" life. On the hand Southeuros...
i dont know how many French actually live by this credo (most likely not many since modern life isnt easy to figure that out) but i think there is some slight differences in approach. Its obviously only a saying.
At the end France is more in the middle of things, but if the question is between Scandos/Balts and Finns or Southeuros- i would vote for the latter

Cristiano viejo

01-13-2021, 02:15 AM

Middle. France is transitional. Northern region borders UK, Belgium, Netherlands and southern region borders Spain, Italy. You simply cant place France in one group.

1- Northern regions dont border Netherlands.
2- Belgium is not North Europe, UK neither.

Sebastianus Rex

01-13-2021, 02:20 AM

Using gastronomy as a way to link certain people in the modern era with one and other does not work for the reasons you bring up. The thing is though modern day Western household dining is based on the French kitchen. So to use it as a way to prove the southerness of the French cuisine is a bit odd, especially considering what defines the French gastronomy namely the Haute-Cuisine with it's complicated methods, butter based sauces, small meals etc hardly makes you think of southern Europe. Italian and Spanish cuisine is simple in technique, colorful and family friendly. That's not exactly what comes to mind when you think of the French cuisine.

Haute cuisine/nouvelle cuisine was invented only a few decades ago, especially from the 50's / 60's on, mainly due to the influence of the mythical chef Paul Bocuse who trained thousands of chefs who exported that new french cuisine all over the world, it is not at all what the average french eat daily and not traditional french cuisine, with consistent dishes such as coq au vin, bouef bourgignon, bouillabaise, confit de canard, cassoulet, quenelles etc etc

In a general way traditional french cuisine is indeed more similar to other southern European cuisines, the Provençal is even purely mediterranean.

I don't think you are knowledgeable about Italian or Spanish cuisines to oversimplify, many traditional dishes are very elaborate and require several cooking stages but ok...and btw, the inland regions cuisine in southern Europe uses lots of butter and cheese of several animals etc.

Cristiano viejo

01-13-2021, 02:24 AM

It is intermediate. Although they speak a Romance language and are (nominally) Catholic, ethnically and culturally the French have a lot more Germanic and Celtic influences than any other Romance people do.
How Celtic influences are stronger in France than in Spain?

Oh, it´s true, I ignored Aren some days ago.
Man, you did well. So you dont have tooooo read him saying things as that "modern North European gastronomy is based in the French... because the potato" :lol:

In France there is the saying "savoire vivre"- to know how to life- this is totally against the mindset of a German- in a way you have to "figure out" life. On the hand Southeuros...
In Spain we have the same saying "saber vivir". I imagine in Germany such saying does not exist, but can you translate me how would be?

Sebastianus Rex

01-13-2021, 02:39 AM

Aren

01-13-2021, 02:43 AM

In France there is the saying "savoire vivre"- to know how to life- this is totally against the mindset of a German- in a way you have to "figure out" life. On the hand Southeuros...
i dont know how many French actually live by this credo (most likely not many since modern life isnt easy to figure that out) but i think there is some slight differences in approach. Its obviously only a saying.
At the end France is more in the middle of things, but if the question is between Scandos/Balts and Finns or Southeuros- i would vote for the latter

That's what makes France unique in many ways. This kind of liberated, free spirited way of living is something one associates with the French first and foremost. You have the extremely invidualistic yet quite socially consverative thinking of the Germans, advance in life for the greater good(the Nation and it's economy) at the expense of your deep interests and well being. The Scandinavians and the English are similar but I feel this thinking is kinda half-assed here in Sweden and very forced.
The socially conservative southern Europe is equally demanding on the individual to behave in a certain manner, but in a different way and for different purposes than what we see in the German-speaking world. Germans are in their thinking many ways closer to say Italians, than what the French are.
This is mainly stereotypical ofcourse, but these kinds of threads always are.

Haute cuisine/nouvelle cuisine was invented only a few decades ago, especially from the 50's / 60's on, mainly due to the influence of the mythical chef Paul Bocuse who trained thousands of chefs who exported that new french cuisine all over the world, it is not at all what the average french eat daily and not traditional french cuisine, with consistent dishes such as coq au vin, bouef bourgignon, bouillabaise, confit de canard, cassoulet, quenelles etc etc

In a general way traditional french cuisine is indeed more similar to other southern European cuisines, the Provençal is even purely mediterranean.

I don't think you are knowledgeable about Italian or Spanish cuisines to oversimplify, many traditional dishes are very elaborate and require several cooking stages but ok...and btw, the inland regions cuisine in southern Europe uses lots of butter, cheese.
Haute Cuisine is based on traditional French cooking. One can argue that the French are closer to southern Europeans just based on the fact that there's a rich culture surrounding food in both places. But once you compare the French cuisine with the Italian or the Spanish then the difference is stark. Nowadays, in the Western world gastronomy has little importance on how we link certain people and cultures with one and other.
Why the French are considered distinct from southern Europeans to most people stems rather from other things like view of life, morals, general behaviour etc.

coolfrenchguy

01-13-2021, 02:49 AM

Middle. France is transitional. Northern region borders UK, Belgium, Netherlands and southern region borders Spain, Italy. You simply cant place France in one group.
netherlands???? since when we have borders with netherlands (aside in guyana,the french guyana, in amazonia with the dutch guyana called also surinam who belongs to the netherland kindgdom) ,we have borders with germany,belgium,luxemburg,swiss but netherlands ???? come on
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/France_18_regions.png/400px-France_18_regions.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/France_map_FR.png/220px-France_map_FR.png
LIMOGES,LYON,GRENOBLE,or CLERMONT-FERRAND are considered as central
MARSEILLE TOULON,NICE, called also the french riviera is considered mediterannean of course and southern,all upper the line LIMOGES to LYON could been considered as as central northern/central eastern europe with neighborhooded countries as austria,germany,belgium,swiss
franks(francs/french) are more germano-celts than latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Europe_814.svg/800px-Europe_814.svg.png

Sebastianus Rex

01-13-2021, 03:13 AM

That's what makes France unique in many ways. This kind of liberated, free spirited way of living is something one associates with the French first and foremost. You have the extremely invidualistic yet quite socially consverative thinking of the Germans, advance in life for the greater good(the Nation and it's economy) at the expense of your deep interests and well being. The Scandinavians and the English are similar but I feel this thinking is kinda half-assed here in Sweden and very forced.
The socially conservative southern Europe is equally demanding on the individual to behave in a certain manner, but in a different way and for different purposes than what we see in the German-speaking world. Germans are in their thinking many ways closer to say Italians, than what the French are.
This is mainly stereotypical ofcourse, but these kinds of threads always are.

Haute Cuisine is based on traditional French cooking. One can argue that the French are closer to southern Europeans just based on the fact that there's a rich culture surrounding food in both places. But once you compare the French cuisine with the Italian or the Spanish then the difference is stark. Nowadays, in the Western world gastronomy has little importance on how we link certain people and cultures with one and other.
Why the French are considered distinct from southern Europeans to most people stems rather from other things like view of life, morals, general behaviour etc.

And until now I've been writing many points on wich the French culture is indeed more similar to other southern euros, yet nobody seems to answer my question and list the cultural aspects on wich the french are more similar to northern euros. Too much sterile refutation just for the kicks without mentioning one single point. I'm waiting...

View of life ? The french past their lives bitching about the government, how much taxes they pay, protesting for their labour rights and expressing their inner desire of boycotting the state... something wich is not very northern European.

Morals? One of the last countries to accept gay marriage, there was even massive protests on the streets because of that. France is not only gauche caviar Paris, very far from it.

General behaviour? Already exaustively pointed the many aspects their way of life is more similar to southern euros. Or do you think that the french have dinner at 6 o clock and like where you live?

Ouistreham

01-13-2021, 03:57 AM

netherlands???? since when we have borders with netherlands
Two French speaking communes of Wallonia (Visé and Plombières) are bordering Dutch Limburg.

In France there is the saying "savoire vivre"- to know how to life- this is totally against the mindset of a German-
You are mistaken.
"Savoir-vivre" means "to be well-mannered".
I don't think this is absent from the Germanic mindset (would be sad otherwise).

Immanenz

01-13-2021, 10:18 AM

Thanks for having common sense and notion of the reality, I guess that in the idea of some people Switzerland, Austria and half of Germany is northern Europe. But of course in the Apricity the average french who appreciates eating well, drinks wine, talks a Latin language and is always complaining about the government and taxes is equidistantly apart from a northern Spanish or a northern Italian than to a Dane or Latvian. :rolleyes:

my Gf who just happens to be only half Venetian, but is totally raised in the German speaking part of Italy- which is completely different to rest of Italy. (mountain people are overall different etc.) Still she complained a lot about Swedish, British and German cuisine, pastisserie and their eating habits (especially on people from Düsseldorf not wasiting even 5 minutes for a proper meal). Also critical of Austrian, but says its def. less worse. Never complained about French cuisine...

I also think that Austria/ Swiss or South Germans would be hard to categorize since they have both influences (behaviour more closer to northern people i would say)- so at one point this categorizing ends making sense- if its already in this case senseless because you could either say a. Europeans behave overall similar but have regional differences or b. there are drastical differences in behaviour, which would never lead to any possible categorization.
But as already mentioned because of modern lifestyle etc. people in Europe behave more similar than let say 300 years ago. So exchange students from Malmö and Salamanca will have less to no problems adapting to the lifestyle of the host country.

You are mistaken.
"Savoir-vivre" means "to be well-mannered".
I don't think this is absent from the Germanic mindset (would be sad otherwise).

True, my mistake- since i remembered it from my French teacher explaining only the notion that i gave. Its actually a modern German saying- so they took it from French ( that means also they see French liiving according to that- would see it as a compliment. After all this is closer to what Nietzsche wanted people to live.)

I think the concentration on formal manners is certainly a big similarity between French and Austrians- especially in Vienna.

Blondie

01-13-2021, 10:24 AM

more southern

Aren

01-13-2021, 12:18 PM

And until now I've been writing many points on wich the French culture is indeed more similar to other southern euros, yet nobody seems to answer my question and list the cultural aspects on wich the french are more similar to northern euros. Too much sterile refutation just for the kicks without mentioning one single point. I'm waiting...

View of life ? The french past their lives bitching about the government, how much taxes they pay, protesting for their labour rights and expressing their inner desire of boycotting the state... something wich is not very northern European.

Complaining about the taxes and the government is commonplace everywhere. It's important to put this into perspective though. Are the French complaints comparable to that we hear from Eastern or Southern Europeans? Definitely not. There are alarming issues that are being brought up in those countries, like obvious corruption, extreme youth unemployment, wages that are a slap in the face especially for the college-educated, basic problems with democracy etc. The French issues in comparison are quite pale - but like I said perspective is important.

Morals? One of the last countries to accept gay marriage, there was even massive protests on the streets because of that. France is not only gauche caviar Paris, very far from it.
I'm not sure if the governmental passing of gay marriage has much merit here - many countries adapted it late when the population was clearly for it. The French are one of the most liberal in Europe when it comes to social norms. Views on sex, marriage, religion, divorce, children out of wedlock, gays, openess to other cultures/races etc all are extremely similar to that of what we see in the protestant NW. There's hardly a discussion here.

General behaviour? Already exaustively pointed the many aspects their way of life is more similar to southern euros. Or do you think that the french have dinner at 6 o clock and like where you live?
In my opinion France formed distinctly from southern Europe mainly during the early 20th century due to it's greater political and economical stability, both comparing France better with say Britain, the low Countries and Scandinavia rather than to southern Europe. During the interwar period when fascist and dictators were ruling most of southern and eastern Europe, France was turning into a modern democracy like other countries in NW Europe sans Germany.
One of the defining differences today between the southwest and northwest is the economy. France has been for centuries one of the richest countries in Europe, even today it's economy is on par with the UK. It has wages and a cost of living similar to that of other NW countries rather than Spain or Italy which is why we never have France included in terms like PIGS.
Living under a dictatorship where you know you're freedom and rights are limited takes a great toll on the general view of life. Likewise when the economical situation leaves much to be desired for. IMO these two things were vital for the formation of the modern European nations.

I'm pretty sure most everyday people eat dinner past 6 here in Sweden.

Jana

01-13-2021, 12:26 PM

French are aliens.

Cristiano viejo

01-13-2021, 02:55 PM

One of the defining differences today between the southwest and northwest is the economy. France has been for centuries one of the richest countries in Europe,
Spain too, that does not make us closer to North EUROPeans, specially when North Europeans always were poorer historically
https://mk0brilliantmaptxoqs.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Europe-GDP-1890.png

https://i.redd.it/r1219wjmlf211.png

even today it's economy is on par with the UK. It has wages and a cost of living similar to that of other NW countries rather than Spain or Italy
Definitively closer to South Europe than to North Europe
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Europe_polar_stereographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary 3.svg/1050px-Europe_polar_stereographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary 3.svg.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(PPP)_pe r_capita

which is why we never have France included in terms like PIGS.

Poor Grace O Callahan... wait she sees Ireland is not part of North Europe because the economy of PIIGS...

Tooting Carmen

01-13-2021, 04:01 PM

@Sebastianus Rex: far from the French being free-spirited individualists (at least in the Anglo-Saxon sense), for good and for ill it is one of the most statist and collectivist nations in the Western world (and probably more than even some non-Western nations too). The French (or a substantial percentage at least) LIKE high taxes, welfare and regulation - when they protest it is usually because the government is trying to take away those things: look how much shit Hollande and Sarkozy got just by trying to raise the state pension age from 60 to 62. One reason why many French people talk disparagingly about 'les Anglo-Saxons' - especially the Americans - is because they view the Anglosphere countries as being too individualistic and market-oriented. And no, France isn't more socially conservative than Anglosphere nations on sexual issues - quite the opposite: it legalised homosexuality two centuries before the likes of Britain, the US and Australia did, and notwithstanding attempts by radfems to change the law it is still more liberal regarding prostitution than the Anglosphere nations too.

Ouistreham

01-13-2021, 08:37 PM

About the misunderstanding (im deutschem Kulturraum) on the meaning of "savoir-vivre":

True, my mistake- since i remembered it from my French teacher explaining only the notion that i gave. Its actually a modern German saying- so they took it from French ( that means also they see French liiving according to that- would see it as a compliment.

I wasn't aware of that so far. I just googled about it and realized that, indeed, the Germans sincerely believe "savoir-vivre" isn't about social etiquette and courtesy rituals but about enjoying food and the pleasures of life...
See for instance:
"Le savoir-vivre ist die Kunst, das Leben zu genießen. Franzosen gelten weit über die Grenzen hinaus als Lebenskünstler, Genießer und Kenner gehobener Lebensart."
https://www.wissen.de/le-savoir-vivre-die-franzoesische-lebensart

It's mindboggling!
There's a similar misunderstanding with the "Grande Nation" concept — which is absolutely unknown in France, but it seems everyone in Germany (and Austria) takes for granted that France calls itself that way, which offers an excuse to the journalists of Der Spiegel for the sarcastic French-hating ramblings they are notorious for.

my Gf who just happens to be only half Venetian, but is totally raised in the German speaking part of Italy- which is completely different to rest of Italy. (mountain people are overall different etc.).
Wow, I see, you know South-Tyrol.
I've been there a couple of times, six-seven years ago. Nowhere else in Europe is the North/South divide so sharp, it runs from a home to another, and sometimes between a flat and the neighbours upstairs in Bozen... It takes a few staircases to go from Milano to München, or from Naples to Hamburg. Incredible. It gave me the sensation of an apartheid-based society, the Italian invaders living in their own world with their own schools and administrations, but people told me the situation was much less tense than decades ago.

Damião de Góis

01-13-2021, 08:43 PM

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Europe_814.svg/800px-Europe_814.svg.png

Off topic, but that should be Kingdom of Asturias not Kingdom of Galicia.

Cristiano viejo

01-14-2021, 02:46 PM

Off topic, but that should be Kingdom of Asturias not Kingdom of Galicia.

I also noticed it but I did not comment because what for... :rolleyes: After all all these maps circulating on internet are so amateur that hurts :rolleyes:

Damião de Góis

01-14-2021, 07:26 PM

I also noticed it but I did not comment because what for... :rolleyes: After all all these maps circulating on internet are so amateur that hurts :rolleyes:

Yeah a lot of fake maps around. I thought wikipedia maps were validated by someone. There's another one of the wiki entry of Charlemagne.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlemagne#Carolingian_expansion_to_the_south

Robocop

01-14-2021, 07:35 PM

If you are to categorise Europe into Northern Europe and Southern Europe, where would you place France?

I would rather place it then to Northern Europe (if you really dont give me any third choice).

But France is THE VERY DEFINITION of WESTERN EUROPE, but ok, I understand what you're asking, if I dont have any other choice except those 2, then Northern Europe.

Faklon

01-14-2021, 08:28 PM

French and Austrian patisserie (along with the Big Mac) hail from Ottoman recipes that by extend hail from Byzantine recipes that by extend hail from the subanimal inventors of watermills who made men fat and weak. Otherwise, the empire was totally moral.

Now, the etiquette and cafe shit are in some way means of socialization close to all South European cultures. Still the notion of saying "Salut" instead of "Fuck you malaka" (or say nothing in Northern Europe) to someone you dislike and that the cafes should remain silent show some form of organization unheard here.

Adult men kissing each other should rather not to be considered a wholly Southern European trait. We have Gayreeks but a pat on the back is enough most of the time.

Sebastianus Rex

01-18-2021, 01:19 PM

Complaining about the taxes and the government is commonplace everywhere. It's important to put this into perspective though. Are the French complaints comparable to that we hear from Eastern or Southern Europeans? Definitely not. There are alarming issues that are being brought up in those countries, like obvious corruption, extreme youth unemployment, wages that are a slap in the face especially for the college-educated, basic problems with democracy etc. The French issues in comparison are quite pale - but like I said perspective is important.

I'm not sure if the governmental passing of gay marriage has much merit here - many countries adapted it late when the population was clearly for it. The French are one of the most liberal in Europe when it comes to social norms. Views on sex, marriage, religion, divorce, children out of wedlock, gays, openess to other cultures/races etc all are extremely similar to that of what we see in the protestant NW. There's hardly a discussion here.

In my opinion France formed distinctly from southern Europe mainly during the early 20th century due to it's greater political and economical stability, both comparing France better with say Britain, the low Countries and Scandinavia rather than to southern Europe. During the interwar period when fascist and dictators were ruling most of southern and eastern Europe, France was turning into a modern democracy like other countries in NW Europe sans Germany.
One of the defining differences today between the southwest and northwest is the economy. France has been for centuries one of the richest countries in Europe, even today it's economy is on par with the UK. It has wages and a cost of living similar to that of other NW countries rather than Spain or Italy which is why we never have France included in terms like PIGS.
Living under a dictatorship where you know you're freedom and rights are limited takes a great toll on the general view of life. Likewise when the economical situation leaves much to be desired for. IMO these two things were vital for the formation of the modern European nations.

I'm pretty sure most everyday people eat dinner past 6 here in Sweden.

Aren, the french complaints are much worse than you see in southern Europe (even worse than the protests in Greece during the last crisis), see the yellow vests movements and all the social turmoil in the last years.

Also if you know them well, the french have a propension to go against laws/government when they have the chance.

Imo, all these cultural aspects and their lifestyle makes them closer to southern euros than to hardcore northern euros.

The economy it's not a measurement factor in this topic, yes France is part of the industrial core of Europe but is northern Italy (the second most industrial region of Europe after the Ruhr region in Germany) and also some other regions of southern Europe such as Madrid and Catalonia are per capita richer and more industrial than most regions in northern Europe).