Is he Lithuanian or Finnish?

[Roy]

https://i.imgur.com/JBBqzsE.jpg

[Viridian1]

He has my imaginary look of a Prussian so he might be from Lithuania.

[calxpal]

Lithuanian?

[Ülev]

Suomalainen

[Lemminkäinen]

He is Lithuanian, but bald head in general makes an illusion of certain looks. Here is a Finnish (Ostrobothian) bald head.
https://images.almatalent.fi/cx0,cy0,cw1024,ch768,570x/https://assets.almatalent.fi/image/6545590d-1e1a-3dce-b52b-531ef934dac6

[Roy]

He has my imaginary look of a Prussian so he might be from Lithuania.

Prussians are all dead, such a shame ...

[Viridian1]

Prussians are all dead, such a shame ...

He may be the one alive

[Immanenz]

looks more Finnish to me, but could be both

[Satem]

I will go with Finland

[Ülev]

Prussians are all dead, such a shame ...

we are alive, one of my family members (maybe, you will never know) has/had surname Gajda, that polonised Prussian surname, nothing in common with "Paleo- ̶B̶u̶l̶g̶Balkanian" musical instrument

http://prusowie.pl/publikacje/gdzie_jestescie_prusai.php

[Ülev]

we are alive, one of my family members (maybe, you will never know) has/had surname Gajda, that polonised Prussian surname, nothing in common with "Paleo- ̶B̶u̶l̶g̶Balkanian" musical instrument

http://prusowie.pl/publikacje/gdzie_jestescie_prusai.php

there is even English version about us Prussians

http://prusowie.pl/index-en.php

[Ülev]

^^
Czy wiedzieliście, że w Polsce jest garstka osób władających językiem pruskim? Okazuje się, że ten naród przetrwał i dziś zaczyna się odradzać! Zachęcam do komentowania i podawania ciekawych faktów z nim związanych.

Did you know that in Poland there are a handful of people who speak Prussian? It turns out that this nation has survived and is beginning to recover today! I encourage you to comment and provide interesting facts related to it.


https://youtu.be/XwsXhYU44kg

[Ülev]

Baltic river names
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Baltic_river_names.jpg/1200px-Baltic_river_names.jpg

[Ülev]

Balts - R1a (including those Slavicised from Poland)
Balti people ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balti_people R1a 46%

Pakistan

In Pakistan, it is found at 71% among the Mohanna of Sindh Province to the south and 46% among the Baltis of Gilgit-Baltistan to the north.[48]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics_and_archaeogenetics_of_South_Asia#Pakista n_2

[Ülev]

Map of areas inhabited by Balts before 4–5th century. Bigger area marks the area of Baltic toponyms. Smaller - marks the area of archeological findings of Baltic artefacts.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-24e18b353196fc419b6b9fba32b5c869

source: https://www.quora.com/Is-Pomerania-historically-Germanic-Slavic-or-Baltic

[PhenotypeMaster]

His facial structure is too masculine to be Finnish.

[Lemminkäinen]

Map of areas inhabited by Balts before 4–5th century. Bigger area marks the area of Baltic toponyms. Smaller - marks the area of archeological findings of Baltic artefacts.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-24e18b353196fc419b6b9fba32b5c869

source: https://www.quora.com/Is-Pomerania-historically-Germanic-Slavic-or-Baltic

I just yesterday looked at Sorb (Wend?) genetic profile. It was surprising to see how close they are Estonians and Finns without Siberian admixture.

[Lemminkäinen]

When I posted these morphs and I said that the Finnish morph has the most wide and robust face, the lowest orbits, the widest chin, the lowest nasal bridge, the highest nasal index, etc., a Jewish user named after a coniferous tree replied that those are all masculine features (as if it would be a negative quality). But then by anthrotard logic, the same features in males would probably be non-masculine.

https://i.ibb.co/kcRSX7M/svenationnewest.jpg

Did you know that the Finns are mythic creatures who rised from sea and have still small fins as relicts. Sometimes they drew little children into the depth. For that reason parents kept children inside after the darkness spread over villages.

[Komintasavalta]

Did you know that the Finns are mythic creatures who rised from sea and have still small fins as relicts. Sometimes they drew little children into the depth. For that reason parents kept children inside after the darkness spread over villages.

I deleted my post before you replied to it, but I was replying to PhenotypeMaster who said "His facial structure is too masculine to be Finnish."

Actually even Coon said that Finnic people have masculine traits like a square face, wide jaw, low orbits, and broad shoulders:

- "The bigonial diameter of the Finns is very broad,[103] to the standards of the very quite equal Livs, and gives the Finnish face the square appearance for which it is noted." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX11.htm)
- "In bodily proportions the Esths are seen to be frequently heavily built, with long bodies and the extremely high relative span of 107 or 108. It was this excessive development of the arms and shoulders, along with a wide mandible, that the Norwegians found most characteristic of the Finns who had affected the population of their southeastern provinces." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX10.htm)
- "Heavy mandibles, with powerful chins, are as typical of these as of other Finns." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX11.htm)
- "Although the Lithuanians are clearly less Nordic morphologically than are the Letts, they are at the same time less typically East Baltic in the Finnish sense in the total contour of the face, for more elliptical and fewer rectangular shapes are found among them." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX12.htm)
- "High orbits, with no folds, are characteristic of Dinarics, and of most Near Eastern peoples; orbits of moderate height, and with a tendency to external folding in maturity and old age, go with long-headed peoples of both blond and brunet varieties, while a median fold, indicative of both a low orbit and a thick fat deposit in the eye region, goes rather with the Finnic and Slavic blond mesocephals and brachycephals." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VIII5.htm)

[sevruk]

Map of areas inhabited by Balts before 4–5th century. Bigger area marks the area of Baltic toponyms. Smaller - marks the area of archeological findings of Baltic artefacts.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-24e18b353196fc419b6b9fba32b5c869

source: https://www.quora.com/Is-Pomerania-historically-Germanic-Slavic-or-Baltic

Why are (Old) Balts such losers?

[Ülev]

Why are (Old) Balts such losers?

lel, Balts created your Russia, all those R-Z92 and some other of R1a subclades, but unfortunately, Bashikirs and others took advantage over Balts, this is why N-W Russians look European, because of Balts who switched their language to "esperanto-Russian", still same soft melody in Russian and Latvian or Lithuanian

[sevruk]

lel, Balts created your Russia, all those R-Z92 and some other of R1a subclades, but unfortunately, Bashikirs and others took advantage over Balts, this is why N-W Russians look European, because of Balts who switched their language to "esperanto-Russian", still same soft melody in Russian and Latvian or Lithuanian

ok, waiting for Latvians and Lithuanians to switch to Russian;)

[Ülev]

ok, waiting for Latvians and Lithuanians to switch to Russian;)

will never happen again, all know from the history that it ended badly for Balts

[vbnetkhio]

Map of areas inhabited by Balts before 4–5th century. Bigger area marks the area of Baltic toponyms. Smaller - marks the area of archeological findings of Baltic artefacts.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-24e18b353196fc419b6b9fba32b5c869

source: https://www.quora.com/Is-Pomerania-historically-Germanic-Slavic-or-Baltic

it's the Balto-Slavic area, not just Baltic.

[Lemminkäinen]

I deleted my post before you replied to it, but I was replying to PhenotypeMaster who said "His facial structure is too masculine to be Finnish."

Actually even Coon said that Finnic people have masculine traits like a square face, wide jaw, low orbits, and broad shoulders:

- "The bigonial diameter of the Finns is very broad,[103] to the standards of the very quite equal Livs, and gives the Finnish face the square appearance for which it is noted." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX11.htm)
- "In bodily proportions the Esths are seen to be frequently heavily built, with long bodies and the extremely high relative span of 107 or 108. It was this excessive development of the arms and shoulders, along with a wide mandible, that the Norwegians found most characteristic of the Finns who had affected the population of their southeastern provinces." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX10.htm)
- "Heavy mandibles, with powerful chins, are as typical of these as of other Finns." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX11.htm)
- "Although the Lithuanians are clearly less Nordic morphologically than are the Letts, they are at the same time less typically East Baltic in the Finnish sense in the total contour of the face, for more elliptical and fewer rectangular shapes are found among them." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX12.htm)
- "High orbits, with no folds, are characteristic of Dinarics, and of most Near Eastern peoples; orbits of moderate height, and with a tendency to external folding in maturity and old age, go with long-headed peoples of both blond and brunet varieties, while a median fold, indicative of both a low orbit and a thick fat deposit in the eye region, goes rather with the Finnic and Slavic blond mesocephals and brachycephals." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VIII5.htm)

This wasn't the point.

[sevruk]

will never happen again, all know from the history that it ended badly for Balts

:(

[Ülev]

it's the Balto-Slavic area, not just Baltic.

https://belaruspartisan.by/life/231540/


(...)Так, оказалось, что русские – это никакие не «восточные славяне», а финны. Кстати, эти исследования в пух и прах разгромили пресловутый миф о «восточных славянах» – о том, что якобы белорусы, украинцы и русские «составляют группу восточных славян». Единственными славянами из этих трех народов оказались только белорусы, но при этом выяснилось, что белорусы – это вовсе не «восточные славяне», а западные – ибо они генетически практически не отличаются от поляков.(...)
А именно: население Брянска, Курска и Смоленска является вовсе не русским населением (то есть финским), а белорусско-польским – идентично генам белорусов и поляков. (....)
Сама история наших стран есть ему подтверждение – главной частью этноса белорусов и поляков являются не славяне, а славянизированные западные балты, но их генетический «паспорт» настолько близок славянскому, что в генах практически трудно было бы найти отличия между славянами и пруссами, мазурами, дайнова, ятвягами и др. Именно это объединяет поляков и белорусов, потомков славянизированных западных балтов. (...)


translate this with google or bing translator please

So, it turned out that the Russians are not "Eastern Slavs" at all, but Finns. By the way, these studies smashed to smithereens the notorious myth about the "Eastern Slavs" - that supposedly Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians "constitute a group of Eastern Slavs." The only Slavs of these three peoples turned out to be only Belarusians, but at the same time it turned out that Belarusians are not “Eastern Slavs” at all, but Western ones, for they practically do not differ genetically from the Poles. (...)
Namely: the population of Bryansk, Kursk and Smolensk is not at all Russian (that is, Finnish), but Belarusian-Polish - identical to the genes of Belarusians and Poles. (....)

The very history of our countries confirms it - the main part of the ethnos of Belarusians and Poles are not the Slavs, but the Slavic Western Balts, but their genetic "passport" is so close to the Slavic that in genes it would be practically difficult to find differences between the Slavs and Prussians, Mazurs, Dainova , Yatvyagami, etc. This is what unites Poles and Belarusians, descendants of the Slavic Western Balts.

[vbnetkhio]

https://belaruspartisan.by/life/231540/




translate this with google or bing translator please

I know that, but your map shows the common Balto-Slavic area before they even split from each other. Slavs come from Polesye.

[Ülev]

I know that, but your map shows the common Balto-Slavic area before they even split from each other. Slavs come from Polesye.

the Real Slavs I2a1b people, you were all those White Croats and White Serbs in the territory of south Poland and west and east of that, and them came south

majority of men with this haplogroup live in Russia and Ukraine – about 40% of the I2a1 population, where in the former Yugoslavia, lives 10% I2a1
of all of I2a1b

[sevruk]

Virgins Balts lost to Chad Slavs, Germanics and even Finno-Ugrians

[Ülev]

Virgins Balts lost to Chad Slavs, Germanics and even Finno-Ugrians

relax, all in a good path to normality: Лукашенко: Путин обещал отдать Белоруссии Калининградскую область // Lukashenko: Putin promised to give Kaliningrad region to Belarus

https://rugrad.eu/news/626294/

[Lemminkäinen]

I deleted my post before you replied to it, but I was replying to PhenotypeMaster who said "His facial structure is too masculine to be Finnish."

Actually even Coon said that Finnic people have masculine traits like a square face, wide jaw, low orbits, and broad shoulders:

- "The bigonial diameter of the Finns is very broad,[103] to the standards of the very quite equal Livs, and gives the Finnish face the square appearance for which it is noted." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX11.htm)
- "In bodily proportions the Esths are seen to be frequently heavily built, with long bodies and the extremely high relative span of 107 or 108. It was this excessive development of the arms and shoulders, along with a wide mandible, that the Norwegians found most characteristic of the Finns who had affected the population of their southeastern provinces." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX10.htm)
- "Heavy mandibles, with powerful chins, are as typical of these as of other Finns." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX11.htm)
- "Although the Lithuanians are clearly less Nordic morphologically than are the Letts, they are at the same time less typically East Baltic in the Finnish sense in the total contour of the face, for more elliptical and fewer rectangular shapes are found among them." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX12.htm)
- "High orbits, with no folds, are characteristic of Dinarics, and of most Near Eastern peoples; orbits of moderate height, and with a tendency to external folding in maturity and old age, go with long-headed peoples of both blond and brunet varieties, while a median fold, indicative of both a low orbit and a thick fat deposit in the eye region, goes rather with the Finnic and Slavic blond mesocephals and brachycephals." (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VIII5.htm)

This wasn't the point.

[vbnetkhio]

the Real Slavs I2a1b people, you were all those White Croats and White Serbs in the territory of south Poland and west and east of that, and them came south

there was no I-Y3120 people. 2000 years ago I-Y3120 was just one man somewhere in Poleyse.
and that doesn't work autosomally either, early Slavs were nothing like Unetice, and much closer to Baltic bronze and iron age samples.

[Sandis]

About 78 percent of Americans speak English language at home, but that doesn't mean that they are mostly English or British by ancestry. A large part of their ancestry is German, Irish, Italian, Sub-Saharan African and other.
The same is with Russia, only assimilation mostly occurred a few centuries earlier.
Modern Russians are mostly descended from Finno-Ugric, Baltic, Slavic, Iranian, Turkic, Caucasian people, and they are not predominantly Slavic by descent.
It 's no surprise because Russia has a large territory like the United States.

[sevruk]

About 78 percent of Americans speak English language at home, but that doesn't mean that they are mostly English or British by ancestry. A large part of their ancestry is German, Irish, Italian, Sub-Saharan African and other.
The same is with Russia, only assimilation mostly occurred a few centuries earlier.
Modern Russians are mostly descended from Finno-Ugric, Baltic, Slavic, Iranian, Turkic, Caucasian people, and they are not predominantly Slavic by descent.
It 's no surprise because Russia has a large territory like the United States.

These people continue to speak their own languages (except for virgins Balts). They are not ethnic Russians.

[Sandis]

These people continue to speak their own languages (except for virgins Balts). They are not ethnic Russians.

Some of them continue to speak their languages, but many people and whole tribes were assimilated over a longer period of time in the Middle Ages and later.
Balts lost wars to Holy Roman Empire and the remnants of the Byzantine Empire. Christianity was a great force in Southern and Central Europe, and that were bad for Balts and Finns who were pagans.

[Sandis]

For example, Northern Russians have very significant Finnic ancestry.
I think that we should respect our origin. I was not sad when i found out that i have some more recent Finnic ancestry from 18th-19th century, and i must have more Finnic ancestry from an earlier times beacause we have important Finnic ancestry as a nation.

https://i.redd.it/cb8bnnaeyp9y.jpg

[Jana]

About 78 percent of Americans speak English language at home, but that doesn't mean that they are mostly English or British by ancestry. A large part of their ancestry is German, Irish, Italian, Sub-Saharan African and other.
The same is with Russia, only assimilation mostly occurred a few centuries earlier.
Modern Russians are mostly descended from Finno-Ugric, Baltic, Slavic, Iranian, Turkic, Caucasian people, and they are not predominantly Slavic by descent.
It 's no surprise because Russia has a large territory like the United States.

Russians are predominately Slavic. Southwest Russians are close to being fully Slavic genetically, while western Russians like those from Smolensk are sth like 3/4 Slavic and 1/4 Baltic approximately.
Russian average is more mixed but still in majority Slavic. Here is Russian average handpicked by Russian user Leto and based mostly on Russians from central Russia and Volga-Ural region, where bulk of population lives:

Target: Russian_average
Distance: 1.9360% / 1.93601091

65.3 Ukrainian
22.2 Latvian
12.5 Mari

Ukrainian is proxy for early Slavic, Latvian for Baltic and Mari for Volga Finnic input. But I get bit better fit by using Lithuanians as Baltic source to model Russians

Target: Russian_average
Distance: 1.3587% / 1.35870498

52.9 Ukrainian
33.6 Lithuanian
13.5 Mari

Maybe because Latvians are part Livonian (Finnic) so Lithuanians may be better Baltic proxy. However it's possible Lithuanians have some Slavic, Polish like admix which eats Russians Slav percentage so I'm not sure.
If I use Latvians as Baltic proxy Russian average is in 65% Slavic range, if I use Lithuanians as Baltic proxy than Russian average is bit over half Slavic.

[Jana]

My question for Sandis: which Baltic nation has less non Baltic admixture, Lithuanians or Latvians?

[Lemminkäinen]

Virgins Balts lost to Chad Slavs, Germanics and even Finno-Ugrians

Because those tribes called now Balts were losers, allying with people they suggested to be winners. They lost their credibility and became servants.

[Sandis]

Russians are predominately Slavic. Southwest Russians are close to being fully Slavic genetically, while western Russians like those from Smolensk are sth like 3/4 Slavic and 1/4 Baltic approximately.
Russian average is more mixed but still in majority Slavic. Here is Russian average handpicked by Russian user Leto and based mostly on Russians from central Russia and Volga-Ural region, where bulk of population lives:

Target: Russian_average
Distance: 1.9360% / 1.93601091

65.3 Ukrainian
22.2 Latvian
12.5 Mari

Ukrainian is proxy for early Slavic, Latvian for Baltic and Mari for Volga Finnic input. But I get bit better fit by using Lithuanians as Baltic source to model Russians

Target: Russian_average
Distance: 1.3587% / 1.35870498

52.9 Ukrainian
33.6 Lithuanian
13.5 Mari

Maybe because Latvians are part Livonian (Finnic) so Lithuanians may be better Baltic proxy. However it's possible Lithuanians have some Slavic, Polish like admix which eats Russians Slav percentage so I'm not sure.
If I use Latvians as Baltic proxy Russian average is in 65% Slavic range, if I use Lithuanians as Baltic proxy than Russian average is bit over half Slavic.

Smolensk like Belgorod was Slobada Ukraine which was inhabited by Ukrainians. That's why there are so much Ukrainian ancestry.
Some weeks ago i read interesting facts about Sloboda Ukraine which i didn't know earlier.
Modern Voronezh Oblast was created by merge of Voreonezh Gubernia and part of Sloboda Gubernia.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Ukraine-Slobozhanshchyna.png

In Slavic (Ukrainian) genetic data must be already included early Iranian (Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan), Gothic and some Dniepr Baltic ancestry. They didn't disappear but merged with Slavic.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Gothic_Kingdoms.png

https://i.ibb.co/Zgm7X4m/Sarmatians-Map.jpg

[Lemminkäinen]

Some of them continue to speak their languages, but many people and whole tribes were assimilated over a longer period of time in the Middle Ages and later.
Balts lost wars to Holy Roman Empire and the remnants of the Byzantine Empire. Christianity was a great force in Southern and Central Europe, and that were bad for Balts and Finns who were pagans.

I see little bad in the Finnish history. Please don't rewrite our history, let Ruskies and Yankees do that work :)

[Lemminkäinen]

For example, Northern Russians have very significant Finnic ancestry.
I think that we should respect our origin. I was not sad when i found out that i have some more recent Finnic ancestry from 18th-19th century, and i must have more Finnic ancestry from an earlier times beacause we have important Finnic ancestry as a nation.

https://i.redd.it/cb8bnnaeyp9y.jpg

Significant Finnic history in Northern Russia. First time I heard this. Volga Finnic people: Erzya and Mordva. Baltic Finnic, all but Finns and Estonians disappeared already hundreds years ago. Finns saved Karelians, our younger and lost branch.

[Sandis]

My question for Sandis: which Baltic nation has less non Baltic admixture, Lithuanians or Latvians?

In general Lithuanians have less non Baltic admixture. There are also regional differences between Northern Latvia and Southern Latvia, Northen Lithuania and Southern Lithuania.

[Sandis]

I see little bad in the Finnish history. Please don't rewrite our history, let Ruskies and Yankees do that work :)

I mean Muromian, Merya, Meshchera tribes. Their languages no longer exists. Isn't it sad?

[Komintasavalta]

Significant Finnic history in Northern Russia. First time I heard this.

In Arkhangelsk Oblast, there's even Finnic toponyms right next to an area with Mansi toponyms (http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Pven.html):


Lähellä mainittua aluetta, Pinegan ja vähemmässä määrin Mezenin alajuoksulla (välittömästi läntisimpien mansilaisnimien luoteispuolella), on puhuttu myös itämerensuomalaisia kieliä. Ainakin karjalais- ja vepsäläistyyppistä nimistöä tavataan alueella, mutta myös vanhakantaisempaa johonkin eteläitämerensuomalaiseen kieleen viittaavaa nimistöä. (Saarikivi 2006: 139).

The source above is Janne Saarikivi's thesis "Substrata Uralica: Studies on Finno-Ugrian Substrate in Northern Russian Dialects" (https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/19635):


In the later period, new Finnic tribes spread from west to east and brought new toponymic models with Karelian phonological characteristics to the north of the Dvina basin. Veps, in turn, spread into the southwest of the Arkhangelsk Region. The old Finnic population of the Dvina basin was neither Karelian nor Veps, however. They seem to have spoken an archaic language with several Proto-Finnic features and, quite probably, one development in common with the southern group of Finnic (mid-central vowel). Thus it seems that the division of the Finnic languages into a southern and a northern group has old roots. The area in which the southern dialects began to emerge was probably situated east of Estonia by Lake Peipus. The spread of an archaic Finnic language form from this area both to the Arkhangelsk Region and to southern Estonia would be understandable.

The present-day Arkhangelsk Region and its neighbouring territories probably played an important role in the development of the Sámi languages as well. As noted above, there are no examples of differentiating Sámi geographical vocabulary in the area whereas the traces of the Sámi sound shifts are likely restricted to the western parts of the area. Moreover, many toponymic types, with the probable Sámi etymologies include lexemes etymologically opaque in Sámi (saN _čukcá_ 'capercaillie' _siida_ 'village', _njukča_ 'swan', _suhpi_ 'aspen' and their counterparts [65]).

According to Matveev (1999, 2001, 2004), Finnic and Sámi substrate toponyms exist side by side almost everywhere in the Dvina basin. Such a conclusion seems to be an illusion caused by too straighforward an ethnic interpretation of the toponymic material, however. As the Sámi toponymic layer is very different from that of modern Sámi, it is quite possible that many toponymic types characterised as Sámi by Matveev originated in idioms closer to Finnic or Pre-Finnic. At the present phase of research it cannot be established whether toponyms such as _Чухчамень_ with lexemes etymologisable both on the basis of Sámi and Finnic originated from the same kind of extinct idioms as toponyms with formants _-сара_ and _-пала_ or the toponyms with the base _кыч_ characterised as Finnic (although they do not point to any particular living Finnic language) or in substrate languages which were fundamentally different from Finnic. In any case, there are toponymic types which cannot be identified as either Finnic or Sámi.

[Lemminkäinen]

I mean Muromian, Merya, Meshchera tribes. Their languages no longer exists. Isn't it sad?

Yeah, but in my opinion they didn't leave much behind. I only want to share academic views, not to teach anyone.

Here a map showin Finnic languages, also lost. The key element is how close languages is each other. The grouping indicates branches in the language tree.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Finnic_languages_2.png

The list:

Southern Finnic
North Estonian (including Standard Estonian)
Central Estonian
Eastern Estonian
Insular Estonian
Western Estonian
South Estonian
Kraasna †
Leivu †
Lutsi †
Mulgi
Seto
Tartu
Võro
Livonian
Courland Livonian (†)
Salaca Livonian †
Votic
Eastern Votic †
Western Votic
Krevinian †
Northern Finnic
? Northeastern coastal Estonian
Alutaguse dialect
Coastal dialect
Western Finnish (including Standard Finnish)
Ostrobothnian dialects
Southwestern dialects
Tavastian dialects
Meänkieli
Kven
Eastern Finnish
Savonian dialects
Southeastern dialects (Karelian Finnish)
Ingrian
Hevaha dialect †
Lower Luga dialect
? Kukkuzi dialect (†)
Orodezhi (Upper Luga) dialect †
Soikkola dialect
Karelian
Livvi (Olonets Karelian)
Karelian proper
Northern Karelian (Viena)
Southern Karelian
Ludic
Central Ludic
Kuuďärv Ludic
Veps
Northern (Onega) Veps
Central Veps
Southern Veps

[Ülev]

Vova Putin looks Vepsian btw

[Lemminkäinen]

Here what they say in Baltic Media


The Finnic (Fennic) or Baltic Finnic (Balto-Finnic, Balto-Fennic) languages are a branch of the Uralic language family spoken around the Baltic Sea, mainly in Finland and Estonia, by about 7 million people.

https://www.balticmedia.com/finnic-languages1

[Jana]

Smolensk like Belgorod was Slobada Ukraine which was inhabited by Ukrainians. That's why there are so much Ukrainian ancestry.
Some weeks ago i read interesting facts about Sloboda Ukraine which i didn't know earlier.
Modern Voronezh Oblast was created by merge of Voreonezh Gubernia and part of Sloboda Gubernia

In Slavic (Ukrainian) genetic data must be already included early Iranian (Scythian, Sarmatian, Alan), Gothic and some Dniepr Baltic ancestry. They didn't disappear but merged with Slavic.

Goths and Iranians doidn't leave much trace, you can see that in haplogroup markers too.
In Ukraine you have more of less two genetic clusters - main Ukrainian cluster which is closest to early Slavs and west Ukrainian/Carpathian Rusyn cluster which has significant Balkan input and bits of westernish influence as well.

Regarding Balts, Belarusians have lot of Baltic input and that matches Baltic toponyms, hydronyms in Belarus. Also Baltic R1a Z92 is widespread there.

Target: Belarusian_Minsk
Distance: 0.6348% / 0.63483703

61.1 Slavic
38.9 Baltic

Ukrainians (non-western) and SW Russians were used for Slavs, Lithuanians and Latvians for Balts. I'm lazy to use ancient samples, but this should be approximately correct estimate more or less.

[Ülev]

^^
THE STORY OF TWO NORTHWARD MIGRATIONS - ORIGINS OF FINNO - PERMIC AND BALTO - SLAVIC LANGUAGES IN NORTHEAST EUROPE, BASED ON HUMAN Y - CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUPS
http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/4182/4018
Abstract
This paper attemps to find a plausible explanation for the origins of Balto
-
Slavic and Finno-Permian languages in Northeast Europe by a research based on the analysis of
statistical databases of human Y
-
chromosome haplogroups . The mainstream view that
associates Balto-Slavic languages with haplogroup R1a and íthe Corded Ware Culture, and
Finno-Permian languages with haplogroup N, fails to solve several contradictions: How
come, that the presence of subclades of haplogroup R are as high in most Finno
-
Permian populations, as the presence of haplogroup N? How come, that Corded Ware culture spread
so far north, that it covered the early
-medieval range of most Finno-Permic languages?


R1a (Z280) was Uralic/Permian, N1 Finnic
when I2a came (probably with R1a m-458) we have those Slavic dialects

:rolleyes:

Uralics/Permians were R1a Z-280, Finno-Samoyeds were N1c, one language group because of nearness

first Slavic language was mix of i2a (Iranic) with R1a (more probably Rethelian M-458 subclade)




R-M458 Polans from Kyiv area, now in Greater Poland epicenter

[Lemminkäinen]

In Arkhangelsk Oblast, there's even Finnic toponyms right next to an area with Mansi toponyms (http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Pven.html):


Lähellä mainittua aluetta, Pinegan ja vähemmässä määrin Mezenin alajuoksulla (välittömästi läntisimpien mansilaisnimien luoteispuolella), on puhuttu myös itämerensuomalaisia kieliä. Ainakin karjalais- ja vepsäläistyyppistä nimistöä tavataan alueella, mutta myös vanhakantaisempaa johonkin eteläitämerensuomalaiseen kieleen viittaavaa nimistöä. (Saarikivi 2006: 139).

The source above is Janne Saarikivi's thesis "Substrata Uralica: Studies on Finno-Ugrian Substrate in Northern Russian Dialects" (https://helda.helsinki.fi/handle/10138/19635):


In the later period, new Finnic tribes spread from west to east and brought new toponymic models with Karelian phonological characteristics to the north of the Dvina basin. Veps, in turn, spread into the southwest of the Arkhangelsk Region. The old Finnic population of the Dvina basin was neither Karelian nor Veps, however. They seem to have spoken an archaic language with several Proto-Finnic features and, quite probably, one development in common with the southern group of Finnic (mid-central vowel). Thus it seems that the division of the Finnic languages into a southern and a northern group has old roots. The area in which the southern dialects began to emerge was probably situated east of Estonia by Lake Peipus. The spread of an archaic Finnic language form from this area both to the Arkhangelsk Region and to southern Estonia would be understandable.

The present-day Arkhangelsk Region and its neighbouring territories probably played an important role in the development of the Sámi languages as well. As noted above, there are no examples of differentiating Sámi geographical vocabulary in the area whereas the traces of the Sámi sound shifts are likely restricted to the western parts of the area. Moreover, many toponymic types, with the probable Sámi etymologies include lexemes etymologically opaque in Sámi (saN _čukcá_ 'capercaillie' _siida_ 'village', _njukča_ 'swan', _suhpi_ 'aspen' and their counterparts [65]).

According to Matveev (1999, 2001, 2004), Finnic and Sámi substrate toponyms exist side by side almost everywhere in the Dvina basin. Such a conclusion seems to be an illusion caused by too straighforward an ethnic interpretation of the toponymic material, however. As the Sámi toponymic layer is very different from that of modern Sámi, it is quite possible that many toponymic types characterised as Sámi by Matveev originated in idioms closer to Finnic or Pre-Finnic. At the present phase of research it cannot be established whether toponyms such as _Чухчамень_ with lexemes etymologisable both on the basis of Sámi and Finnic originated from the same kind of extinct idioms as toponyms with formants _-сара_ and _-пала_ or the toponyms with the base _кыч_ characterised as Finnic (although they do not point to any particular living Finnic language) or in substrate languages which were fundamentally different from Finnic. In any case, there are toponymic types which cannot be identified as either Finnic or Sámi.

Yeah, Iron Age Finns spread out to the Onega, obviously also to Novgorod. What does this chsnge? Only that Eastern Vikings may have been partly Finns. But how much there is Swedish genes today, lel. I have also read that even more to east there are place names pointing to old Saami settlements.

[sevruk]

I mean Muromian, Merya, Meshchera tribes. Their languages no longer exists. Isn't it sad?

There are only about 200 Livonian people. Isn't it sad?

[Lemminkäinen]

^^
THE STORY OF TWO NORTHWARD MIGRATIONS - ORIGINS OF FINNO - PERMIC AND BALTO - SLAVIC LANGUAGES IN NORTHEAST EUROPE, BASED ON HUMAN Y - CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUPS
http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/4182/4018
Abstract
This paper attemps to find a plausible explanation for the origins of Balto
-
Slavic and Finno-Permian languages in Northeast Europe by a research based on the analysis of
statistical databases of human Y
-
chromosome haplogroups . The mainstream view that
associates Balto-Slavic languages with haplogroup R1a and íthe Corded Ware Culture, and
Finno-Permian languages with haplogroup N, fails to solve several contradictions: How
come, that the presence of subclades of haplogroup R are as high in most Finno
-
Permian populations, as the presence of haplogroup N? How come, that Corded Ware culture spread
so far north, that it covered the early
-medieval range of most Finno-Permic languages?


R1a (Z280) was Uralic/Permian, N1 Finnic
when I2a came (probably with R1a m-458) we have those Slavic dialects

:rolleyes:

Uralics/Permians were R1a Z-280, Finno-Samoyeds were N1c, one language group because of nearness

first Slavic language was mix of i2a (Iranic) with R1a (more probably Rethelian M-458 subclade)




R-M458 Polans from Kyiv area, now in Greater Poland epicenter


Right, Finno-Permians, those bird-bear people left easily remarkable genetic marks to North Russia.

Edit.

We have still the problem of Bronze Age N1c in Volga Kama, or actually that it didn't exist. Nice theories say that proto-Slavs carried R1a, proto-Germans R1b and Proto-FU speakers N1c, but being logical it isn't easy like that.

[Jana]

^^^^I2a-CTS10228 originates from NW Europe. Basal mutations for entire Dinaric branch have been found in Frenchman from Alsace and German from Baden - Württemberg.
Most likely a Celtic lineage with deeper mesolithic WHG origin that migrated east in unclear circumstances and than participated in creation of proto-Slavs.

It's possible that merging with I2-din separated Slavs from Balts, as Balts lack I2a. And Slavs lack N1c except those in northern Russia with Uralic origin.
Balto Slavs were R1a. Than Slavs emerged as R1a + I2-din mix, and Balts as R1a + N1c mix.

I2-din men in eastern Europe are all closely related and descend from one man whose lineage exploded upon arrival in eastern Europe. Maybe he archived elite status.
Otherwise I can't explain how such small lineage exploded demographically in such short time span and became major Slavic hg.

[Lemminkäinen]

There are only about 200 Livonian people. Isn't it sad?

Even all Livonian places are named newly.

[Sandis]

Goths and Iranians doidn't leave much trace, you can see that in haplogroup markers too.
In Ukraine you have more of less two genetic clusters - main Ukrainian cluster which is closest to early Slavs and west Ukrainian/Carpathian Rusyn cluster which has significant Balkan input and bits of westernish influence as well.

Regarding Balts, Belarusians have lot of Baltic input and that matches Baltic toponyms, hydronyms in Belarus. Also Baltic R1a Z92 is widespread there.

Target: Belarusian_Minsk
Distance: 0.6348% / 0.63483703

61.1 Slavic
38.9 Baltic

Ukrainians (non-western) and SW Russians were used for Slavs, Lithuanians and Latvians for Balts. I'm lazy to use ancient samples, but this should be approximately correct estimate more or less.

I forgot to mention Balkan descent. Slavs have high Y-dna haplogorup I2a frequency.

[Jana]

About R1a Z280, it's broadly Balto-Slavic. Only CTS1211 can be see as typically Slavic (it's subclade under Z280 on ydna tree), while Z92 which is also subclade of Z280 fits much more with Baltic expansion.

[Jana]

I forgot to mention Balkan descent. Slavs have high Y-dna haplogorup I2a frequency.

Yeah, but I2a isn't native to the Balkans as previously believed. It arrived there during medieval with Slavic migrations.
Basically R1a M458, R1a CTS1211 and I2a CTS10228 are three early Slav haplogropups.

[Sandis]

There are only about 200 Livonian people. Isn't it sad?

Yes, it is. But we didn't go to them with the sword to stop them speaking Livonian. Conversion to Latvian was voluntary.
When we got independence in 1918 there was anyway nothing much that could be done because there were too few Livonian speakers left.

[Ülev]

^^


https://youtu.be/eg5RhBpAdmI

[Komintasavalta]

Yeah, Iron Age Finns spread out to the Onega, obviously also to Novgorod. What does this chsnge? Only that Eastern Vikings may have been partly Finns. But how much there is Swedish genes today, lel. I have also read that even more to east there are place names pointing to old Saami settlements.

You're the oldest person who I've seen use the word "lel". Did you learn it from Sean?

Wikipedia says that the Scandinavian Iron Age is considered to end at the beginning of the Viking Age: "The Iron Age in Scandinavia and Northern Europe begins around 500 BC with the Jastorf culture, and is taken to last until c. 800 AD and the beginning Viking Age."

From Saarikivi 2006:


Due to the archaic phonological characteristics of some extinct Finnic dialects of the Dvina basin, the Finnic language must have spread to this area quite early. [...]

Also, sound shifts (_š_ > _h_) have probably spread in this way most likely from west to east (and it has traditionally been argued that Proto-Finnic sound shifts originated through Germanic influence [see Posti 1953, Kallio 2000]). This is supported by the fact that toponyms which probably did not undergo the shift _š_ > _h_ are concentrated to the east of the Dvina basin (cf. Matveev 2004: 234–232). [...]

Thus the toponymic types referred to above have, if their etymologies are correct, preserved the Proto-Finnic consonantism and, in this respect, they stand apart from most of the Finnic. Moreover, as noted above, there are examples of a Sámi phonological shift _ś_ > _ć_ in the toponyms. In addition, as also noted above, there are also some toponyms which have probably preserved Proto-Uralic _*š_ and word initial _*wo_.

Saarikivi wrote that Proto-Finnic "was probably spoken approximately 500 BC–500 AD", which would be before the Viking Age.

[Sandis]

Even all Livonian places are named newly.

Germans renamed many Latvian and Livonian places but we returned most of them back.
I have not heard that Latvians renamed Livonian places. Many still sounds Livonian. Maybe some letters were changed.

[Lemminkäinen]

Yes, it is. But we didn't go to them with the sword to stop them speaking Livonian. Conversion to Latvian was voluntary.
When we got independence in 1918 there was anyway nothing much that could be done because there were too few Livonian speakers left.

How did you explain that the German Order banned Livonian and Curonian languages, but not all Baltic languages in their administrative territory?

[Sandis]

How did you explain that the German Order banned Livonian and Curonian languages, but not all Baltic languages in their administrative territory?

Livonian were spoken in large numbers long time after German Order. After German Order Usage slowly decreased. Some of the reasons were that Latvian language was used in churches and schools because priests and teachers didn't understand Livonian.

I think that Great Northern War plague in 1710 had a big role in Livonian langueage decline. It affected more areas where Livonians lived because there were the main war roads. Whole villages died out.
Later Latvians from other areas came to the empty places and distributed the Latvian language.
In this map you can see how many people died in 1710 (Latvian Vidzeme region). In black areas 81-99 percent of people died. Livonians lived in these areas and also in the areas where mortality was 61-80 percent.

https://i.ibb.co/MNQbKCM/Livonians.png

[Lemminkäinen]

Germans renamed many Latvian and Livonian places but we returned most of them back.
I have not heard that Latvians renamed Livonian places. Many still sounds Livonian. Maybe some letters were changed.

I have old Latvian maps with tens names missed in new maps. I have to take photos and put them under the right title (history).

[Lemminkäinen]

Livonian were spoken in large numbers long time after German Order. After German Order Usage slowly decreased. Some of the reasons were that Latvian language was used in churches and schools because priests and teachers didn't understand Livonian.

I think that Great Northern War plague in 1710 had a big role in Livonian langueage decline. It affected more areas where Livonians lived because there were the main war roads. Whole villages died out.
Later Latvians from other areas came to the empty places and distributed the Latvian language.
In this map you can see how many people died in 1710 (Latvian Vidzeme region). In black areas 81-99 percent of people died. Livonians lived in these areas and also in the areas where mortality was 61-80 percent.

https://i.ibb.co/MNQbKCM/Livonians.png

Thank you. Still I doubt that this explains all things. What about Curonians? I have difficult to understand why Swedish army would have destroyed Livonian villages, especially because the unit in Riga was a Finnish regiment (Ostrobothnian Regiment). War was war, but in Estonia the Swedish king prepared reforms including freeing serfs. Maybe the destruction in Livonia was made by Poles and Lithuanians? But anyway during crusades many Baltic groups allied with Germans in order to get benefit against other local groups. It was not pretty.

[Sandis]

Thank you. Still I doubt that this explains all things. What about Curonians? I have difficult to understand why Swedish army would have destroyed Livonian villages, especially because the unit in Riga was a Finnish regiment (Ostrobothnian Regiment). War was war, but in Estonia the Swedish king prepared reforms including freeing serfs. Maybe the destruction in Livonia was made by Poles and Lithuanians? But anyway during crusades many Baltic groups allied with Germans in order to get benefit against other local groups. It was not pretty.

So great mortality was caused only by plague epidemic distribution, and i don't think they wanted to destroy exactly Livonian villages.
I don't have a map about Courland, but i read that the plague affected Courland even more. Some places in Courland that died out are mentioned: 2 in Northern and Central Courland border (very likely Livonian speaking at the time) , 3 in Southern Courland.
Maybe some areas were repleaced by Eastern Latvians.

Migration between regions were also frequent after Polish–Swedish War (1600–1611) when many people from Courland came to Vidzeme. At the time in some areas even 20-50 percent household owners were migrants from Courland, but more frequent figures were 5-10 percents.

It's possible that Livonians in Courland were numerically less than in Vidzeme, although the language survived there longer.
Some Baltic groups allied with Germans, and i agree it was not pretty. Semigallians resisted the Germans for the longest time.

It would be interesting to see the map with Livonian place names.

[Roy]

The answer: Lithuanian

His name is Algirdas Neiberka, he's a mayor of Vilkaviškis town.


I will go with Finland

Suomalainen

looks more Finnish to me, but could be both


He strikes as very Finnish looking and I would guess that if I didn't know but he's from Lithuania.

[princeton90]

Finnish?

[Roy]

So great mortality was caused only by plague epidemic distribution, and i don't think they wanted to destroy exactly Livonian villages.
I don't have a map about Courland, but i read that the plague affected Courland even more. Some places in Courland that died out are mentioned: 2 in Northern and Central Courland border (very likely Livonian speaking at the time) , 3 in Southern Courland.
Maybe some areas were repleaced by Eastern Latvians.

Migration between regions were also frequent after Polish–Swedish War (1600–1611) when many people from Courland came to Vidzeme. At the time in some areas even 20-50 percent household owners were migrants from Courland, but more frequent figures were 5-10 percents.

It's possible that Livonians in Courland were numerically less than in Vidzeme, although the language survived there longer.
Some Baltic groups allied with Germans, and i agree it was not pretty. Semigallians resisted the Germans for the longest time.

It would be interesting to see the map with Livonian place names.

I find it interesting why Latvia is so scarcely populated compared even to Lithuania, there are parishes / administrative districts in Latvia that are relatively big which have only 5 to 8 people per km2. like this one. In Poland even gminas (singular gmina) that are barely populated with only rural population, mainly occupied forests and marshes that have reputation of being 'the woods' have larger population density than large extents of Latvia.

https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundagas_pagasts

https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alojas_novads

I think Livonian was spoken there, and now it is virtually desolate. I guess those old wars had an ongoing impact on the demography together with migrations to cities.

[Sandis]

^^
THE STORY OF TWO NORTHWARD MIGRATIONS - ORIGINS OF FINNO - PERMIC AND BALTO - SLAVIC LANGUAGES IN NORTHEAST EUROPE, BASED ON HUMAN Y - CHROMOSOME HAPLOGROUPS
http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/viewFile/4182/4018
Abstract
This paper attemps to find a plausible explanation for the origins of Balto
-
Slavic and Finno-Permian languages in Northeast Europe by a research based on the analysis of
statistical databases of human Y
-
chromosome haplogroups . The mainstream view that
associates Balto-Slavic languages with haplogroup R1a and íthe Corded Ware Culture, and
Finno-Permian languages with haplogroup N, fails to solve several contradictions: How
come, that the presence of subclades of haplogroup R are as high in most Finno
-
Permian populations, as the presence of haplogroup N? How come, that Corded Ware culture spread
so far north, that it covered the early
-medieval range of most Finno-Permic languages?


R1a (Z280) was Uralic/Permian, N1 Finnic
when I2a came (probably with R1a m-458) we have those Slavic dialects

:rolleyes:

Uralics/Permians were R1a Z-280, Finno-Samoyeds were N1c, one language group because of nearness

first Slavic language was mix of i2a (Iranic) with R1a (more probably Rethelian M-458 subclade)




R-M458 Polans from Kyiv area, now in Greater Poland epicenter

I also think that there is something wrong with these old theories, because haplogoup R1a/N1c (former N3) ratio in some Finnic ethnicities is higher than in Baltic ethnicites.

R1a/N1c ratio

Mari (Finnic): 47.7 : 31.5
Northern Courland (Latvia, important Finnic Livonian ancestry): 44.8 : 31.0
Estonians (Finnic): 37.3 : 33.9
Southern Courland (Latvia, pred. Baltic): 39.4 : 36.4
Zemgale (Latvia, mostly Baltic): 38.5 : 43.6
Lithuanians (Baltic): 34.1 : 43.9
Eastern Latvia (mostly Baltic): 32.8 : 48.3

My estimate for Courland Livonians is about 48 : 28, and this would be the highest ratio in this list.

https://www.google.lv/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwidkMnlloruAhUCkMMKHeoFDIwQFjADegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcontent.sciendo.com%2Fdownloadpd f%2Fjournals%2Fprolas%2F72%2F3%2Farticle-p131.xml&usg=AOvVaw0t_zL2acNTGwmZaRNxHU90

[Lemminkäinen]

I also think that there is something wrong with these old theories, because haplogoup R1a/N3 ratio in some Finnic ethnicities is higher than in Baltic ethnicites.

R1a/N3 ratio

Mari (Finnic): 47.7 : 31.5
Northern Courland (Latvia, important Finnic Livonian ancestry): 44.8 : 31.0
Estonians (Finnic): 37.3 : 33.9
Southern Courland (Latvia, pred. Baltic): 39.4 : 36.4
Zemgale (Latvia, mostly Baltic): 38.5 : 43.6
Lithuanians (Baltic): 34.1 : 43.9
Eastern Latvia (mostly Baltic): 32.8 : 48.3

My estimate for Courland Livonians is about 48 : 28, and this would be the highest ratio in this list.

https://www.google.lv/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwidkMnlloruAhUCkMMKHeoFDIwQFjADegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcontent.sciendo.com%2Fdownloadpd f%2Fjournals%2Fprolas%2F72%2F3%2Farticle-p131.xml&usg=AOvVaw0t_zL2acNTGwmZaRNxHU90

This is what surprises me too. People who don't know Finnish history, or want to twist things to look like they are not, take always Finnish high N1c as an example of the relation between yDna and FU languages, trying to make an illusion like things are simple. But they are not. First, the expansion of East Finnish population is young, called in Finnish studies Late Settlements, because East Finland was populated by burning forests (slash and burn farming) giving superior population growth with drawback of destroying wilderness. Secondly, a big proportion of the N1c of the Finnis root population is from early Iron Age Scandinavia, where is the Finnish I1 too. The rest is from Iron Age Estonia. This part, which came from Estonia, obviously didn't include much R1a and N-L550 so the dilemma is where did they it actually came from, because R1a and N-L550 are common in Estonia.

These are facts that anthrotards, Finnish FU fan girls and boys don't want to discuss :)

[Ülev]

btw, why I have Latvia and Jelgava right now under my avatar.....

Peter von Biron
Peter von Biron (15 February 1724 – 13 January 1800) was the last Duke of Courland and Semigallia, from 1769 to 1795.
In April 1786, he purchased the Duchy of Sagan from the Bohemian Lobkovic family, then additionally used the title of Duke of Żagań.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_von_Biron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Courland_and_Semigallia

I feel connected to Latvia in some way

[Sandis]

I find it interesting why Latvia is so scarcely populated compared even to Lithuania, there are parishes / administrative districts in Latvia that are relatively big which have only 5 to 8 people per km2. like this one. In Poland even gminas (singular gmina) that are barely populated with only rural population, mainly occupied forests and marshes that have reputation of being 'the woods' have larger population density than large extents of Latvia.

https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundagas_pagasts

https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alojas_novads

I think Livonian was spoken there, and now it is virtually desolate. I guess those old wars had an ongoing impact on the demography together with migrations to cities.

Yes. those old wars had much impact on the demography. WW1 and WW2 also affected Courland much (more than Eastern Latvia).
For example, Ventspils district, where Livonian was spoken, has low population density :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventspils_Municipality

[Lemminkäinen]

btw, why I have Latvia and Jelgava right now under my avatar.....

Peter von Biron
Peter von Biron (15 February 1724 – 13 January 1800) was the last Duke of Courland and Semigallia, from 1769 to 1795.
In April 1786, he purchased the Duchy of Sagan from the Bohemian Lobkovic family, then additionally used the title of Duke of Żagań.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_von_Biron

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Courland_and_Semigallia

I feel connected to Latvia in some way

I also have a Livonian German connection from the Swedish heyday.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Was this guy revealed? Too lazy to look through the thread. Finnish btw.

[Roy]

Was this guy revealed? Too lazy to look through the thread. Finnish btw.

Lithuanian. But to me looks Finnish too.

[vbnetkhio]

I also think that there is something wrong with these old theories, because haplogoup R1a/N1c (former N3) ratio in some Finnic ethnicities is higher than in Baltic ethnicites.

R1a/N1c ratio

Mari (Finnic): 47.7 : 31.5
Northern Courland (Latvia, important Finnic Livonian ancestry): 44.8 : 31.0
Estonians (Finnic): 37.3 : 33.9
Southern Courland (Latvia, pred. Baltic): 39.4 : 36.4
Zemgale (Latvia, mostly Baltic): 38.5 : 43.6
Lithuanians (Baltic): 34.1 : 43.9
Eastern Latvia (mostly Baltic): 32.8 : 48.3

My estimate for Courland Livonians is about 48 : 28, and this would be the highest ratio in this list.

https://www.google.lv/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwidkMnlloruAhUCkMMKHeoFDIwQFjADegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcontent.sciendo.com%2Fdownloadpd f%2Fjournals%2Fprolas%2F72%2F3%2Farticle-p131.xml&usg=AOvVaw0t_zL2acNTGwmZaRNxHU90

N1c in Europe most likely spread from modern day Belarus:

https://i.imgur.com/oQ7w22a.png

that explains why it has no correlation with East Asian autosomal dna.

[vbnetkhio]

^^^^I2a-CTS10228 originates from NW Europe. Basal mutations for entire Dinaric branch have been found in Frenchman from Alsace and German from Baden - Württemberg.
Most likely a Celtic lineage with deeper mesolithic WHG origin that migrated east in unclear circumstances and than participated in creation of proto-Slavs.

It's possible that merging with I2-din separated Slavs from Balts, as Balts lack I2a. And Slavs lack N1c except those in northern Russia with Uralic origin.
Balto Slavs were R1a. Than Slavs emerged as R1a + I2-din mix, and Balts as R1a + N1c mix.

I2-din men in eastern Europe are all closely related and descend from one man whose lineage exploded upon arrival in eastern Europe. Maybe he archived elite status.
Otherwise I can't explain how such small lineage exploded demographically in such short time span and became major Slavic hg.

it's not really unclear, there was a group of Celto-Germanic tribes living close to the proto-Slavic homeland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Celtic_peoples_and_tribes#Possible _Celts_mixed_with_other_peoples

It's possible that the "I2a-CTS10228 man" was just an early Slavic ruler with distant Celtic origin, so he had no influence on the language.
In that case it was R1a-M458 that separated Slavs from Balts. I'm leaning more towards that theory currently, but who knows.