How do you deal with Theists?

[Hevneren]

How do you, personally, deal with Theists? Given that religious encroachment on free society is a constant reality, do you ever feel frustrated? If so, what do you do?

Personally, I'm fortunate to live in a rather secular and open society where religion is a private matter for the most part, but I have been approached by religious people a few times, and have talked to them. I generally don't mind discussing religion, but I admit that Theists sometimes frustrate me because a lot of the time I feel that I've hit a wall with them and there's no way to progress from there on.

[Turkey]

At4rScWoiXQ

[Loki]

Nero and Domitian had good ideas, but we need to think of some modern equivalents to deal with them. :cool:

[Loki]

In all seriousness, it is very hard to debate with theists (especially Christians and Muslims), since they do not accept rational arguments, nor science.

[Sturmgewehr]

I am a theist myself but RELIGIOUS people piss the fuck off me, especially with their ignorance, there is a difference between Theists and Religious people, u can be theist like I am and be opened to many stuff others have to say, accept their rational argument their fact I also still believe there is a creator because that is what I believe and I think there is a creator and I got my own reason for that which I am not willing to discuss, I know many Theist people like this, I do believe in God I believe there is a Creator but I am not gonna stick my nose in other people's business.

There is a huge difference between being a Theist and being religious, Religious goes far beyond just believing there is GOD, religious is when people try to tell u what is right and what is wrong for u, when they tell u how to dress, act, talk etc... when they will strip u from ur right just because u expressed urself, when they will tell u that u will burn in Hell for certain things that they shouldn't really give a fuck.

I think u should have formulated the question a little differently.

P.s: I just realized I made a mistake, I mean theist and Religious pretty much are the same what I was trying to say is difference between BELIEVER in God or Creator and Religious people.

[Hevneren]

I am a theist myself but RELIGIOUS people piss the fuck off me, especially with their ignorance, there is a difference between Theists and Religious people, u can be theist like I am and be opened to many stuff others have to say, accept their rational argument their fact I also still believe there is a creator because that is what I believe and I think there is a creator and I got my own reason for that which I am not willing to discuss, I know many Theist people like this, I do believe in God I believe there is a Creator but I am not gonna stick my nose in other people's business.

There is a huge difference between being a Theist and being religious, Religious goes far beyond just believing there is GOD, religious is when people try to tell u what is right and what is wrong for u, when they tell u how to dress, act, talk etc... when they will strip u from ur right just because u expressed urself, when they will tell u that u will burn in Hell for certain things that they shouldn't really give a fuck.

I think u should have formulated the question a little differently.

P.s: I just realized I made a mistake, I mean theist and Religious pretty much are the same what I was trying to say is difference between BELIEVER in God or Creator and Religious people.

I agree, and I understand what you're saying about belief and religion. The two aren't one and the same thing. I see religion as a system or framework, with rules and tenants, and it's meant to give greater legitimacy to your beliefs. Thing is, I don't think it does.

One thing a lot of religious people get wrong about Atheists, is that they think we "believe in nothing" and they think we "deny God" or such things. Thing is, most intellectually honest Atheists say they don't know if a god exists or not. However, not knowing if a god exists or not, it makes no sense or an Atheist to say "Let's believe anyway!", since absence of evidence is no reason to believe in something.

[Boudica]

They don't really piss me off too much.. If they want to live in lala land and believe in a being only a slight step above Santa Claus, that is fine with me. Some people need to feel like they are being protected, like they are here for a reason, and that they will never truly die, it all comes down to them needing closure.. I am one of the people who would like for there to be closure but i'm not willing to make myself blind to gain it, and I can honestly say in regards to our meaning, what's out there, and how this all came to be, I have no idea.

[rhiannon]

How do you, personally, deal with Theists? Given that religious encroachment on free society is a constant reality, do you ever feel frustrated? If so, what do you do?

Personally, I'm fortunate to lie in a rather secular and open society where religion is a private matter for the most part, but I have been approached by religious people a few times, and have talked to them. I generally don't mind discussing religion, but I admit that Theists sometimes frustrate me because a lot of the time I feel that I've hit a wall with them and there's no way to progress from there on.

I'll talk with them. The minute they start pushing their beliefs down my throat, though, I'm outta there!

[Talvi]

Luckily I live in Estonia, so coming across another Estonian my age who is serious about religion is quite rare.


If I do meet someone who is serious about religion, Id rather avoid the topic or the person alltogether.

Its just annoying and Ive heard it all already. They never have anything new to say anyway.

[safinator]

Although here no young people talks about religion if i've met one i'd have tried to avoid the discussion since it can get pretty dull IMO.

[Eldritch]

http://jeesuksenjaljissa.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/henrik-ja-lalli-ekman1.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lalli)

[Damião de Góis]

I don't. No one imposes their views on others here. In fact, on weddings or funerals, most people turn miraculously into catholics temporarily.

[Saturni]

In all seriousness, it is very hard to debate with theists (especially Christians and Muslims), since they do not accept rational arguments, nor science.

Debating with true believers is an exercise in futility. Trying to convince them that their god doesn't exist is akin to arguing with them that they personally don't exist.

Best thing to do with them is allow them to self-ghettoize themselves into isolated theocratic communities.

Maybe for fun, the surrounding communities could organize tours, like Raghead safaries or Xtian petting zoos. :D

[Óttar]

The problem is not theism per se. There is a difference between Abrahamic monotheism which says "My way or (literally) go to Hell" and religions like Hinduism, Shinto, Taoism and the religions of "pagan" antiquity, which say "respect the rites, revere the ancestors, respect the land, live in accordance with cosmic order, and sprinkle some incense in deference to the authorities, which god you worship is up to you."

[Saturni]

The problem is not theism per se. There is a difference between Abrahamic monotheism which says "My way or (literally) go to Hell" and religions like Hinduism, Shinto, Taoism and the religions of "pagan" antiquity, which say "respect the rites, revere the ancestors, respect the land, live in accordance with cosmic order, and sprinkle some incense in deference to the authorities, which god you worship is up to you."

You're quite right, the problem isn't with the idea of theism, but with the psychos who think it's their god-given duty to preach and convert.

But Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindus, and Taoists aren't the problem... ;)

[Hevneren]

I read somewhere that the way in which you think and reason about things may be hard-wired into your brain, so a religious brain is in fact "tuned in" to think in religious terms. In short, a religious person sees what he or she wants to see.

Then again, perhaps some people are "hard-wired" to not be religious?

[SilverKnight]

I avoid talking to them, but when I have arguments hardly get far with them many are too close minded/hard headed.

[BeerBaron]

I try to ignore them as much as possible, Canada is pretty secular. But I don't think to highly of those who attribute everything the west has done to christianity. Or the ones, who ironically, want to persecute the non believers, like some on this forum.

My personal thoughts are that religion is a weakness that absolves people of taking responsibility for their lives and world.

[Joe McCarthy]

Given the demographic trends I'd say the way for atheists to deal with theists is to surrender.

[Talvi]

You're quite right, the problem isn't with the idea of theism, but with the psychos who think it's their god-given duty to preach and convert.

But Buddhists, Shintoists, Hindus, and Taoists aren't the problem... ;)

since shinto is a belief rather than a religion (that almost nobody these days believes in anyway). (as in its not really organized, like anykind of animism or the like).

and the rest... are also debatable whether they really can be called religions or not.

[Loki]

Given the demographic trends I'd say the way for atheists to deal with theists is to surrender.

To Allah, I suppose? Never! I'd rather die being the only atheist in the world than submit my will to ignorants.

[Hevneren]

Given the demographic trends I'd say the way for atheists to deal with theists is to surrender.

Surrender what and to whom? You Theists better get yourself fundie armies if you want us to "surrender". Good luck with that little project of yours. :rolleyes:

[Joe McCarthy]

To Allah, I suppose? Never! I'd rather die being the only atheist in the world than submit my will to ignorants.

In Europe that appears to be the case. In the US it's more like fast breeding and fairly moderate Latino Catholics and white Christians. The irreligious don't have a lot of kids.

[Joe McCarthy]

Surrender what and to whom? You Theists better get yourself fundie armies if you want us to "surrender". Good luck with that little project of yours. :rolleyes:

I'm effectively an agnostic myself, or certainly not a convinced Christian at this point. I just despise atheism.

[Loki]

In Europe that appears to be the case. In the US it's more like fast breeding and fairly moderate Latino Catholics and white Christians. The irreligious don't have a lot of kids.

I know in certain parts of America it's very hard to be an atheist - you get discriminated against and people think you're strange and avoid you. The exact same thing happens in South Africa ... people are very religious. I dislike this, hence London is way more comfortable for me to live in.

[Eldritch]

I know in certain parts of America it's very hard to be an atheist - you get discriminated against and people think you're strange and avoid you. The exact same thing happens in South Africa ... people are very religious.

Which is why the statistics regarding atheism and religion in those places cannot be trusted.

EDIT:

I probably should add that the statistics aren't that reliable anywhere else, either. Being a member of a religious organisation ≠ believing in the existence of a bearded old man playing a harp sitting on a cloud.

[Saturni]

since shinto is a belief rather than a religion (that almost nobody these days believes in anyway). (as in its not really organized, like anykind of animism or the like).

and the rest... are also debatable whether they really can be called religions or not.

???

Shinto is alive and well as a religion in Japan. After all, all Japanese are born Shinto. Shinto is what it means to be Japanese.

[Saruman]

Given the demographic trends I'd say the way for atheists to deal with theists is to surrender.

http://www.fuckfrance.com/images/i412/20706.248257k97c.jpg

You might be getting assimilated, me not though.:)
7OCKDEdtWys

[Loki]

Which is why the statistics regarding atheism and religion in those places cannot be trusted.

EDIT:

I probably should add that the statistics aren't that reliable anywhere else, either. Being a member of a religious organisation ≠ believing in the existence of a bearded old man playing a harp sitting on a cloud.

Indeed. Christians and Muslims are some of the most shameless liars ever - and to them it's all for a "good cause". In their minds the line between reality and untruth is often so blurred that even they can't tell the difference themselves.

[Hevneren]

I just despise atheism.

What for? Being Agnostic is essentially the same thing as Atheism. They are two different ways to be non-religious. Agnosticism deals with knowledge while Atheism deals with belief.

[Saturni]

Atheism = I thought about it and I don't believe.

Agnosticism = Since I can't personally come to terms with the issue either way, I just assume that no one will ever be able to as well.

Agnostics are, for lack of a better description, philosophical fence sitters. :D

[Hevneren]

Atheism = I thought about it and I don't believe.

Agnosticism = Since I can't personally come to terms with the issue either way, I just assume that no one will ever be able to as well.

Agnostics are, for lack of a better description, philosophical fence sitters. :D


As mentioned, they relate to two different (but related) positions:

Agnosticism: "I don't know".
Atheism: "I don't believe".

It's possible to be an Agnostic Atheist or an Agnostic Theist, just as you can be a Gnostic Theist and (although it seems rare) Gnostic Atheist.

[Joe McCarthy]

What for? Being Agnostic is essentially the same thing as Atheism. They are two different ways to be non-religious. Agnosticism deals with knowledge while Atheism deals with belief.

Atheism is associated with a great deal of socio-political baggage I find highly obnoxious. I'm still culturally very much a Christian and respect and acknowledge Christianity's contributions, while most atheists, especially the 'active' ones, attempt to rewrite and secularize history so as to harmonize it with their prejudices.. Intellectually it's just hard to firmly believe any longer.

[Talvi]

???

Shinto is alive and well as a religion in Japan. After all, all Japanese are born Shinto. Shinto is what it means to be Japanese.

Yes ad when you are writing your thesis and you ask about whether a person becomes kami, or goes to yomi instead, since both at the same time should be impossible and then you ask a japanese and they start talking about Amida butsu... yeah thats not even shinto and then they look at you with big eyes and ask whats the difference.


Nobody is born anything. If the Japanese are born shinto that means that christians are born christian. They are not, they are brought up to be something.
And the Japanese are not brought up to be shinto by religion.
If anything you can call a lot of what they do tradition that they dont understand or really believe in.

I celebrate christmas, does that make me a christian? No. Its just a holiday and a tradition.

[Hevneren]

Atheism is associated with a great deal of socio-political baggage I find highly obnoxious. I'm still culturally very much a Christian and respect and acknowledge Christianity's contributions, while most atheists, especially the 'active' ones, attempt to rewrite and secularize history so as to harmonize it with their prejudices.. Intellectually it's just hard to firmly believe any longer.

Well, it's largely socio-political baggage imposed upon them. The word "Atheist" carries a stigma with it and thus Atheists have been a pariah class for centuries.

[Drawing-slim]

Atheism is associated with a great deal of socio-political baggage I find highly obnoxious. I'm still culturally very much a Christian and respect and acknowledge Christianity's contributions, while most atheists, especially the 'active' ones, attempt to rewrite and secularize history so as to harmonize it with their prejudices.. Intellectually it's just hard to firmly believe any longer.i agree on this.
personally i dont fallow any religion but i believe universe was designed by some intelligent being. or as Spinoza says it, "a supreme being of absolute infinity". kinda like the sound of that

back to your point, i dont like extreme religious lunatics, regardless christians muslims etc, also active atheists tent to be really annoying.
fox exemple bill maher is a funny guy, but he doesn't make sense at all when he keeps on going with nonsense about his irrefutable standings that there's no god etc, and anyone that believes is an idiot.

[BeerBaron]

Given the demographic trends I'd say the way for atheists to deal with theists is to surrender.

I don't suppose it would surprise you to know that according to the 1900 census on religion the USA was FAR LESS religious than it is now, and religion really took off after WW2.

[Sturmgewehr]

i agree on this.
personally i dont fallow any religion but i believe universe was designed by some intelligent being. or as Spinoza says it, "a supreme being of absolute infinity". kinda like the sound of that

back to your point, i dont like extreme religious lunatics, regardless christians muslims etc, also active atheists tent to be really annoying.
fox exemple bill maher is a funny guy, but he doesn't make sense at all when he keeps on going with nonsense about his irrefutable standings that there's no god etc, and anyone that believes is an idiot.

He doesn't say there is no god, he says MAYBE THERE IS NO GOD so this would be something like someone said here Agnostic Atheist, now in this sense you are an Agnostic Theist.

Bill Maher preaches the gospel of I DON'T KNOW

[Balmung]

I don't, really.

I let people believe what they please. Until they attempt to shove it down my throat. The only issue i have with religion, is when it makes its way into political matters. Other than that, no serious issues with the religious here.

[Saturni]

Yes ad when you are writing your thesis and you ask about whether a person becomes kami, or goes to yomi instead, since both at the same time should be impossible and then you ask a japanese and they start talking about Amida butsu... yeah thats not even shinto and then they look at you with big eyes and ask whats the difference.


Nobody is born anything. If the Japanese are born shinto that means that christians are born christian. They are not, they are brought up to be something.
And the Japanese are not brought up to be shinto by religion.
If anything you can call a lot of what they do tradition that they dont understand or really believe in.

I celebrate christmas, does that make me a christian? No. Its just a holiday and a tradition.

I'll rely on what I was taught by the numerous Japanese teachers I've had over years, thank you.

Also, Xmas is a Germanic holiday that was co-opted by Xtains.

[Saturni]

As mentioned, they relate to two different (but related) positions:

Agnosticism: "I don't know".
Atheism: "I don't believe".

It's possible to be an Agnostic Atheist or an Agnostic Theist, just as you can be a Gnostic Theist and (although it seems rare) Gnostic Atheist.

You're getting lost in semantics.

Atheists do not believe in a God or Gods. An Agnostic believes that it's impossible to ever know either way.

Personally, I view Agnosticism as a cop out. If you're going to believe/disbelieve something then do/not do it a 100%. If you going to be a true believer than be the biggest true believer on the block. If you're going to be an Atheist, then be biggest and best Atheist on the block. Anything is better using the "we'll never know" cop out.

[Eldritch]

...

Anything is better using the "we'll never know" cop out.

Unless, of course, the "we'll never know" is what the state of affairs happens to be.


Also, Xmas is a Germanic holiday that was co-opted by Xtains.

Many contemporary Christmas traditions originated in Germany, yes, but the original holiday co-opted was the, ahem, Saturnalia feast of the ancient Romans.

[Saturni]

Unless, of course, the "we'll never know" is what the state of affairs happens to be.



Many contemporary Christmas traditions originated in Germany, yes, but the original holiday co-opted was the, ahem, Saturnalia feast of the ancient Romans.

Different Saturn. ;)

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't suppose it would surprise you to know that according to the 1900 census on religion the USA was FAR LESS religious than it is now, and religion really took off after WW2.

Yes, the right in this country is much more religious today too. The leading conservatives of the pre-war era, such as Robert Taft, were often near infidel Episcopalians. The trend is moving this way in Israel too.

[Drawing-slim]

He doesn't say there is no god, he says MAYBE THERE IS NO GOD so this would be something like someone said here Agnostic Atheist, now in this sense you are an Agnostic Theist.

Bill Maher preaches the gospel of I DON'T KNOWI disagree on that. He actually gets in your face specifically making fun of the birded guy up in the sky, and also never seen him explain anything more of how he perceives the creation himself
which is ok if thinks we all imagine god as some bearded guy up in the clouds, but at the same time he shows his lack of imagination by insulting ours to assume that we all perceive him as such.
i do find him funny though:D

[Drawing-slim]

You're getting lost in semantics.

Atheists do not believe in a God or Gods. An Agnostic believes that it's impossible to ever know either way.

Personally, I view Agnosticism as a cop out. If you're going to believe/disbelieve something then do/not do it a 100%. If you going to be a true believer than be the biggest true believer on the block. If you're going to be an Atheist, then be biggest and best Atheist on the block. Anything is better using the "we'll never know" cop out.agnostics a,k,a atheists with no balls:D (heard that somewhere)

[Loki]

Intellectually it's just hard to firmly believe any longer.

That is because knowledge has vastly increased, and the Biblical reality looks more and more like cruel, sloppy infantile fiction.

If God truly exists, I would appreciate if he would indulge us with an upgraded version of religion, fit for people whose minds had more than 2,000 years to evolve.

[Odoacer]

I don't suppose it would surprise you to know that according to the 1900 census on religion the USA was FAR LESS religious than it is now, and religion really took off after WW2.

How is "religious" being defined? Lack of affiliation in itself does not constitute lack of belief or practice. There certainly weren't more atheists & agnostics running about in 1900 than there are now.

[Joe McCarthy]

How is "religious" being defined? Lack of affiliation in itself does not constitute lack of belief or practice. There certainly weren't more atheists & agnostics running about in 1900 than there are now.

It's an interesting question. Certainly the culture is less Christian than it was in 1900. At the same time, being openly atheist in politics today is political suicide. It could be that some have become more zealous in response to cultural rot.

[Loki]

Atheism is associated with a great deal of socio-political baggage I find highly obnoxious.


In actual fact church history is, and has been through the ages.



I'm still culturally very much a Christian and respect and acknowledge Christianity's contributions, while most atheists, especially the 'active' ones, attempt to rewrite and secularize history so as to harmonize it with their prejudices..

I'm also culturally what one could call a Christian, since it formed a lot of what my character turned out to be. There are good aspects about it, since Biblical teaching definitely contains some timeless wisdom. It's a matter of keeping the good and shaking off the religious baggage that isn't necessary.

As for secularizing history, that would be more accurately called correcting it and removing theistic prejudice from its interpretation. One has to admit that many historians looked at events through religious goggles.

[Himera]

How do you, personally, deal with Theists? Given that religious encroachment on free society is a constant reality, do you ever feel frustrated? If so, what do you do?

Personally, I'm fortunate to live in a rather secular and open society where religion is a private matter for the most part, but I have been approached by religious people a few times, and have talked to them. I generally don't mind discussing religion, but I admit that Theists sometimes frustrate me because a lot of the time I feel that I've hit a wall with them and there's no way to progress from there on.

I know about what you are talking.
it seems like they don' t have a wish to agree with anyone except with the God.

They have given all their frustrations ,fears and desires to " Judgment of the Sky" and they believe that now they have strenght of "upper dimensions", then they think comon "humain" dialogues are overrated , and they confuse people with they permanent peace ....

Peace of a s * **,if you ask me ...

They don't have a clue about the spirit.
And the spirit is something which create moves on , not lifeless laws and canons ...
You don't; know what you are till you meet yourself ...

Temptations has always been pope's unforbidden destinations...

You should not bother about them, those are people who don'thave their own problems.
They are calm when you think that you have it ....

I often like to makefunny with them ,especially with those who are the biggest flegmas .:p:D

[Saturni]

That is because knowledge has vastly increased, and the Biblical reality looks more and more like cruel, sloppy infantile fiction.

If God truly exists, I would appreciate if he would indulge us with an upgraded version of religion, fit for people whose minds had more than 2,000 years to evolve.

If he truly existed, I think he'd be tried for war crimes. :thumbs up

[Jägerstaffel]

The subject of religion isn't brought up very often in daily life. I prefer it that way.

[mdou3]

I just let them do their thing, unless they get a condescending attitude about it. At that point I just ask them to tell me about their religion, to which I respond with correcting them on what they think their religion believes. Lots have no idea what they're talking about or where it came from..

I consider myself an Agnostic though, and I really am making a conscious effort to "find" Jesus.. I thought I did, but then I started reading more into the bible and got a bit confused along the way.

[Bard]

I generally avoid talking with them about religion.
I spoke about religion with a theist woman only once, I kinda lied and I got laid so it was fine.

[Apollonaris]

How do you, personally, deal with Theists? Given that religious encroachment on free society is a constant reality, do you ever feel frustrated? If so, what do you do?

"Frustrated" is the correct word to use here. I usually call them out on their bullshit, but only when they try to inject their religious beliefs into things like politics or science, where it doesn't belong.


Personally, I'm fortunate to live in a rather secular and open society where religion is a private matter for the most part, but I have been approached by religious people a few times, and have talked to them.

Most Canadians are either not religious or atheists, according to a recent poll I read in the newspaper. And religion is something that one usually keeps to oneself here. The only exceptions are the fundamentalists who seem to be constantly pushing their religion on everyone, whether you want to hear them or not. These types I usually avoid like the plague, because they're not interested in dialogue but rather in converting people.


I generally don't mind discussing religion, but I admit that Theists sometimes frustrate me because a lot of the time I feel that I've hit a wall with them and there's no way to progress from there on.

I enjoy talking about religion as well, but only with someone who wants an honest dialogue. Fundamentalists are only interested in converting others, and their arguments are stupid (they believe that the earth is 6,000 years old) and are deceptive in the extreme (one fundie denied that god had commanded the Israelites to commit genocide against the Canaanites until I showed him the relevant passages in the Bible, at which point he began rationalizing it all away -- and using the typical fundamentalist arguments -- which makes me think that his denials were disingenuous to begin with).


One thing a lot of religious people get wrong about Atheists, is that they think we "believe in nothing" and they think we "deny God" or such things.

What I hear a lot is that atheists hate god, which is equivalent to hating Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, and just as silly. The first time I heard this I was taken aback, because it is a ridiculous assertion. The next time I heard it, I laughed out loud. Apparently it's a common belief among the religiously deluded.


Thing is, most intellectually honest Atheists say they don't know if a god exists or not. However, not knowing if a god exists or not, it makes no sense or an Atheist to say "Let's believe anyway!", since absence of evidence is no reason to believe in something.

Well, that's the difference between theists and atheists, isn't it? Atheists are willing to admit they don't know something, whereas theists pretend to have all the answers.

[Apollonaris]

In Europe that appears to be the case. In the US it's more like fast breeding and fairly moderate Latino Catholics and white Christians. The irreligious don't have a lot of kids.

The general trend over the last century is for the children to be less religious than the parents, no matter how many kids they have. I don't see this changing anytime soon, especially if the Fundamentalists continue their war on science and reason, the reason for this being that the more educated the population, the less religious they are (no surprise there), and the trend is for more and more people to go to college or university with each passing generation, which means that each new generation is better educated than the previous generation, which means that the clock is ticking for religion in the advanced countries. Atheists would be better off to adopt a Fabian strategy and simply wait for the religious to disappear into irrelevance.

[Derelict]

I have an unspoken pact with my friends, they don't bother me about atheism, I don't bother them about their religions. I'm rather happy about this, especially since my three best friends are 1. Catholic, 2. Jewish, 3. Opus Dei (yeah...)

Other people are less reasonable so I just keep my mouth shut lest they hate me for being a heathen. And they would, too. My society is not exactly secular, to put it mildly. About 70% is Catholic, 90% christian with a strong Opus Dei influence, not to mention most quality schools are catholic, and do a very good job of indoctrinating children. Mine was thankfully one of the good secular ones. Not that there would be any point to discussing religion with someone from the Opus Dei anyway.

[arcticwolf]

Well you can't reason with beliefs. How do you reason with someone who believes a man lived inside a fish for a few days? Then turns around and ridicules the concept of karma as childish and far fetched. Irony? There is a way, wait another 2000 years and it probably will not be a problem then. So the answer is patience my friend! :D They don't call patience the greatest of virtues for nothing. :p