Swedish-Finnish (and saami?)

[migrec]

Just got the result for my step father, we believed he would be a swedish/walloon mix with some finnish or at least some northern swedish (with a smaller finnish/saami). The results are quite different though, finnish is way more prominent and there are barely any traces of north-west european ancestry outside of normal swedish admixture. Isn't his baltic & east euro very high for his finnish side too or is it average? I have no knowledge at all regarding scandinavian or finnish people.
I think the results show a saami ancestry as well because of the siberian and ancestral altaic, or do finns just have high altaic? what do you guys think?

k13:

1 North_Atlantic 43.56
2 Baltic 38.74
3 West_Med 7.69
4 West_Asian 3.75
5 Siberian 3.06
6 Red_Sea 1.04
7 Oceanian 0.71
8 Northeast_African 0.63
9 Sub-Saharan 0.46
10 Amerindian 0.36

1 North_Swedish 2.98
2 Southwest_Finnish 6.84
3 Swedish 8.7
4 Norwegian 11.86
5 East_German 12.13
6 North_German 12.23
7 Finnish 12.41
8 Danish 13.33
9 South_Polish 13.55
10 North_Dutch 13.56
11 Polish 13.9
12 Austrian 14.14
13 Estonian 14.16
14 Orcadian 15.43
15 Hungarian 15.68
16 La_Brana-1 15.94
17 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.94
18 Ukrainian 15.97
19 East_Finnish 16.19
20 Irish 16.2

1 59.1% Swedish + 40.9% Finnish @ 1.88
2 56.4% Southwest_Finnish + 43.6% Swedish @ 1.93
3 86.4% North_Swedish + 13.6% Estonian @ 1.99
4 89.5% North_Swedish + 10.5% Lithuanian @ 2.01
5 51.2% Norwegian + 48.8% Finnish @ 2.01
6 75.9% North_Swedish + 24.1% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.14
7 64.2% Southwest_Finnish + 35.8% Norwegian @ 2.15
8 65.6% Swedish + 34.4% East_Finnish @ 2.19
9 85.9% North_Swedish + 14.1% Finnish @ 2.2
10 89.6% North_Swedish + 10.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.28
11 62.5% Swedish + 37.5% Estonian @ 2.29
12 89.4% North_Swedish + 10.6% East_Finnish @ 2.29
13 89.4% North_Swedish + 10.6% Belorussian @ 2.29
14 90% North_Swedish + 10% Estonian_Polish @ 2.31
15 88.2% North_Swedish + 11.8% Polish @ 2.34
16 91.3% North_Swedish + 8.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.38
17 92.8% North_Swedish + 7.2% Erzya @ 2.39
18 54.6% Norwegian + 45.4% Estonian @ 2.41
19 58% Norwegian + 42% East_Finnish @ 2.43
20 56.8% Finnish + 43.2% Irish @ 2.45

k15:

1 North_Sea 32.83
2 Atlantic 24.47
3 Baltic 18.68
4 Eastern_Euro 16.05
5 West_Med 3.89
6 Siberian 2.34
7 Northeast_African 0.51
8 Oceanian 0.41
9 West_Asian 0.4
10 Sub-Saharan 0.32
11 Amerindian 0.1

1 Southwest_Finnish 4.96
2 North_Swedish 5.38
3 Swedish 8.37
4 Finnish 8.55
5 Norwegian 9.29
6 North_German 9.35
7 Danish 9.86
8 East_German 10.16
9 North_Dutch 10.49
10 West_Norwegian 11.47
11 Irish 12.2
12 West_Scottish 12.27
13 Southeast_English 12.87
14 South_Dutch 13.39
15 East_Finnish 13.42
16 Southwest_English 13.68
17 Hungarian 13.86
18 Orcadian 13.98
19 West_German 14.06
20 Estonian 14.2

1 73.4% Southwest_Finnish + 26.6% West_Scottish @ 2.37
2 76.2% Southwest_Finnish + 23.8% Orcadian @ 2.46
3 69% Southwest_Finnish + 31% Danish @ 2.49
4 70.4% Southwest_Finnish + 29.6% North_Dutch @ 2.5
5 73.6% Southwest_Finnish + 26.4% Irish @ 2.52
6 72.4% Southwest_Finnish + 27.6% West_Norwegian @ 2.53
7 68% Southwest_Finnish + 32% Norwegian @ 2.67
8 65.8% Southwest_Finnish + 34.2% Swedish @ 2.77
9 75.6% Southwest_Finnish + 24.4% Southeast_English @ 2.85
10 53.8% West_Scottish + 46.2% Estonian @ 2.91
11 59.8% Finnish + 40.2% West_Scottish @ 3.08
12 77.5% Southwest_Finnish + 22.5% Southwest_English @ 3.1
13 50.4% Orcadian + 49.6% Estonian @ 3.14
14 59.7% Finnish + 40.3% Irish @ 3.15
15 59.7% Danish + 40.3% Estonian @ 3.15
16 69.9% Southwest_Finnish + 30.1% North_German @ 3.22
17 53.4% Southwest_Finnish + 46.6% North_Swedish @ 3.25
18 54.1% Finnish + 45.9% Danish @ 3.34
19 54.1% Irish + 45.9% Estonian @ 3.44
20 56% Finnish + 44% North_Dutch @ 3.6


mdlp k23b:

1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 47.89
2 European_Early_Farmers 20.48
3 Caucasian 18.62
4 Ancestral_Altaic 6.25
5 South_Central_Asian 3.99
6 East_Siberian 0.6
7 Tungus-Altaic 0.59
8 Australoid 0.51
9 Archaic_African 0.43
10 Paleo_Siberian 0.43
11 South_East_Asian 0.13
12 Melano_Polynesian 0.07
13 Archaic_Human 0.01

1 Swede ( ) 4.28
2 Dane ( ) 4.51
3 Swede_Saami ( ) 5.87
4 Norwegian_East ( ) 6.33
5 North_German ( ) 7.62
6 Dutch ( ) 7.99
7 Finn_West ( ) 8.25
8 Norwegian_West ( ) 8.63
9 Icelandic ( ) 8.83
10 North_European ( ) 9.57
11 English ( ) 9.62
12 Irish ( ) 10.19
13 Belgian ( ) 10.37
14 Frisian ( ) 10.81
15 CEU ( ) 11.53
16 German ( ) 11.61
17 South_German ( ) 11.8
18 Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) 11.94
19 German-Volga ( ) 12.08
20 English_Kent_GBR ( ) 12.33

1 51.2% Finn_West ( ) + 48.8% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 1.64
2 67% Norwegian_West ( ) + 33% Erzya ( ) @ 1.65
3 72.1% Norwegian_West ( ) + 27.9% Russian_Vologda ( ) @ 1.73
4 69.8% Norwegian_West ( ) + 30.2% Russian-North ( ) @ 1.8
5 70.1% Norwegian_West ( ) + 29.9% Estonian ( ) @ 1.88
6 71.7% Icelandic ( ) + 28.3% Russian_Vologda ( ) @ 1.95
7 61.8% Finn_West ( ) + 38.2% Orcadian ( ) @ 2
8 51.8% Finn_West ( ) + 48.2% Icelandic ( ) @ 2
9 72.2% Norwegian_East ( ) + 27.8% Finn ( ) @ 2.03
10 71.6% Norwegian_West ( ) + 28.4% Vepsa ( ) @ 2.04
11 60.4% Orcadian ( ) + 39.6% Estonian ( ) @ 2.06
12 68.3% Icelandic ( ) + 31.7% Russian-Upper-Volga ( ) @ 2.07
13 69.7% Icelandic ( ) + 30.3% Estonian ( ) @ 2.09
14 59.6% Finn_West ( ) + 40.4% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 2.09
15 61.4% British ( ) + 38.6% Karelian ( ) @ 2.1
16 88.3% Swede ( ) + 11.7% Bashkir ( ) @ 2.12
17 62.8% Orcadian ( ) + 37.2% Russian_Vologda ( ) @ 2.12
18 63.3% Norwegian_West ( ) + 36.7% Finnish_FIN ( ) @ 2.12
19 56.1% British ( ) + 43.9% Finn ( ) @ 2.13
20 71.6% Norwegian_West ( ) + 28.4% Latvian ( ) @ 2.14

[Leto]

I think those results are normal for Northern Swedes or Swedes of partially Finnish ancestry. The Ancestral Altaic isn't really Altaic, it's basically Eastern European of some sort, maybe Steppe-related.
Can you please post his Dodecad K12b components?

[Östsvensk]

Not unusual results for someone from northern or parts of central Sweden. Here are two other North Swedish K13:

1:


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.53
2 Baltic 37.61
3 West_Med 9.42
4 East_Med 2.67
5 West_Asian 2.39
6 Siberian 2.16
7 South_Asian 1.65
8 Red_Sea 0.77
9 East_Asian 0.64
10 Sub-Saharan 0.42
11 Northeast_African 0.28
12 Oceanian 0.25
13 Amerindian 0.23

Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 4.01
2 Southwest_Finnish 7.12
3 Swedish 8.97
4 East_German 9.13
5 Austrian 11.34
6 North_German 11.4
7 South_Polish 11.42
8 Norwegian 12.08
9 Polish 12.45
10 Hungarian 12.76
11 Danish 12.77
12 Finnish 12.88
13 North_Dutch 13.21
14 Ukrainian 13.95
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.96
16 Estonian 14.2
17 Orcadian 14.97
18 Belorussian 15.18
19 Croatian 15.45
20 Russian_Smolensk 15.5

2:


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 42.49
2 Baltic 35.86
3 West_Med 11.95
4 West_Asian 2.31
5 South_Asian 2.09
6 Siberian 1.87
7 East_Asian 1.12
8 East_Med 1.08
9 Sub-Saharan 0.43
10 Oceanian 0.43
11 Red_Sea 0.35

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 5.06
2 Swedish 7.84
3 East_German 8.56
4 Southwest_Finnish 9.6
5 North_German 10.25
6 Norwegian 10.72
7 Austrian 10.82
8 Danish 11.36
9 North_Dutch 11.71
10 South_Polish 13.06
11 Orcadian 13.1
12 Hungarian 13.28
13 Southeast_English 14.06
14 Irish 14.16
15 Polish 14.24
16 South_Dutch 14.29
17 West_German 14.46
18 West_Scottish 14.9
19 Finnish 15.3
20 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.32

[migrec]

I think those results are normal for Northern Swedes or Swedes of partially Finnish ancestry. The Ancestral Altaic isn't really Altaic, it's basically Eastern European of some sort, maybe Steppe-related.
Can you please post his Dodecad K12b components?
Alright, there is also siberian/paleo siberian, tungus altaic and a quite large south central asian present. What would you say that implies? also normal for a swedish/finnish mix?

1 North_European 54.98
2 Atlantic_Med 32.36
3 Gedrosia 5.91
4 Siberian 3.56
5 Caucasus 1.71
6 Southwest_Asian 0.7
7 Sub_Saharan 0.39
8 East_African 0.3
9 Northwest_African 0.1

1 Swedish (Dodecad) 4.04
2 Norwegian (Dodecad) 5.13
3 German (Dodecad) 10.38
4 Dutch (Dodecad) 12.21
5 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 13.49
6 Orkney (1000Genomes) 13.64
7 British_Isles (Dodecad) 13.72
8 CEU30 (1000Genomes) 13.99
9 English (Dodecad) 14.15
10 Argyll (1000Genomes) 14.43
11 Orcadian (HGDP) 14.51
12 Kent (1000Genomes) 14.77
13 Irish (Dodecad) 14.91
14 Hungarians (Behar) 15.6
15 British (Dodecad) 16.01
16 Cornwall (1000Genomes) 16.71
17 Polish (Dodecad) 17.26
18 Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) 20.6
19 French (Dodecad) 21.07
20 French (HGDP) 21.67

1 64.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) + 35.5% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.47
2 59.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) + 40.1% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.59
3 97% Swedish (Dodecad) + 3% Nganassan (Rasmussen) @ 1.68
4 60.9% British (Dodecad) + 39.1% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.72
5 96.2% Swedish (Dodecad) + 3.8% Dolgan (Rasmussen) @ 1.72
6 61.5% Cornwall (1000Genomes) + 38.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.72
7 66.1% British_Isles (Dodecad) + 33.9% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.77
8 96.5% Swedish (Dodecad) + 3.5% Yukagir (Rasmussen) @ 1.78
9 96.7% Swedish (Dodecad) + 3.3% Evenk (Rasmussen) @ 1.78
10 96.5% Swedish (Dodecad) + 3.5% Yakut (HGDP) @ 1.88
11 63.9% English (Dodecad) + 36.1% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.88
12 62.5% British (Dodecad) + 37.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.89
13 62.9% Kent (1000Genomes) + 37.1% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.91
14 64.1% CEU30 (1000Genomes) + 35.9% FIN30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.95
15 95.7% Swedish (Dodecad) + 4.3% Ket (Rasmussen) @ 1.97
16 65.5% English (Dodecad) + 34.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.01
17 64.5% Kent (1000Genomes) + 35.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.01
18 86.8% Norwegian (Dodecad) + 13.2% Chuvashs (Behar) @ 2.02
19 95.5% Swedish (Dodecad) + 4.5% Selkup (Rasmussen) @ 2.05
20 65.7% CEU30 (1000Genomes) + 34.3% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.07

[migrec]

Not unusual results for someone from northern or parts of central Sweden. Here are two other North Swedish K13:

1:


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 41.53
2 Baltic 37.61
3 West_Med 9.42
4 East_Med 2.67
5 West_Asian 2.39
6 Siberian 2.16
7 South_Asian 1.65
8 Red_Sea 0.77
9 East_Asian 0.64
10 Sub-Saharan 0.42
11 Northeast_African 0.28
12 Oceanian 0.25
13 Amerindian 0.23

Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 4.01
2 Southwest_Finnish 7.12
3 Swedish 8.97
4 East_German 9.13
5 Austrian 11.34
6 North_German 11.4
7 South_Polish 11.42
8 Norwegian 12.08
9 Polish 12.45
10 Hungarian 12.76
11 Danish 12.77
12 Finnish 12.88
13 North_Dutch 13.21
14 Ukrainian 13.95
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.96
16 Estonian 14.2
17 Orcadian 14.97
18 Belorussian 15.18
19 Croatian 15.45
20 Russian_Smolensk 15.5

2:


# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 42.49
2 Baltic 35.86
3 West_Med 11.95
4 West_Asian 2.31
5 South_Asian 2.09
6 Siberian 1.87
7 East_Asian 1.12
8 East_Med 1.08
9 Sub-Saharan 0.43
10 Oceanian 0.43
11 Red_Sea 0.35

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 5.06
2 Swedish 7.84
3 East_German 8.56
4 Southwest_Finnish 9.6
5 North_German 10.25
6 Norwegian 10.72
7 Austrian 10.82
8 Danish 11.36
9 North_Dutch 11.71
10 South_Polish 13.06
11 Orcadian 13.1
12 Hungarian 13.28
13 Southeast_English 14.06
14 Irish 14.16
15 Polish 14.24
16 South_Dutch 14.29
17 West_German 14.46
18 West_Scottish 14.9
19 Finnish 15.3
20 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.32

Thank you for posting this, I see that siberian/east asian is about the same. Would you say these results are average for northern swedes or do you also need finnish ancestry?

[migrec]

I should add that his swedish side, as far as we could trace, is from southern Sweden. Finnish side lived in Tornedalen, Norrbotten. Not sure if they're from there however

[Lemminkäinen]

Gedrosia is normal in Finland, Siberia small, but not abnormal.

I can imagine his result being an admixture of South Swede and someone from Tornedalen.

[Östsvensk]

Thank you for posting this, I see that siberian/east asian is about the same. Would you say these results are average for northern swedes or do you also need finnish ancestry?

It is quite average, I would say. Northern and central Sweden historically had Finnish migration and it shows on the tests.

[Leto]

Alright, there is also siberian/paleo siberian, tungus altaic and a quite large south central asian present. What would you say that implies? also normal for a swedish/finnish mix?

This is what Vahaduo gives him

Target: migrec_stepdad
Distance: 2.4608% / 2.46077718
63.1 Finnish_West
21.3 Danish
15.6 Spanish_Basque

Target: migrec_stepdad
Distance: 2.6920% / 2.69197498 | R2P
76.7 Finnish_West
23.3 Spanish_Basque

[migrec]

Thank you all for your inputs, as Myheritage's ethnicity analysis I feel is lacking, on Gedmatch it's easily over-complicated instead because of all the different calculators. Your replies made it clearer :)

[Flashball]

Interesting

[Lemminkäinen]

This is what Vahaduo gives him

Target: migrec_stepdad
Distance: 2.4608% / 2.46077718
63.1 Finnish_West
21.3 Danish
15.6 Spanish_Basque

Target: migrec_stepdad
Distance: 2.6920% / 2.69197498 | R2P
76.7 Finnish_West
23.3 Spanish_Basque

I get in many tests Greek, Italian or Spanish snd can assure the these results are wrong. My Siberian is too low to make Finnish-Swedish or Finnish- Baltic admixtures. Mediterranean gives the required "negative" Siberian.

[Leto]

I get in many tests Greek, Italian or Spanish snd can assure the these results are wrong. My Siberian is too low to make Finnish-Swedish or Finnish- Baltic admixtures. Mediterranean gives the required "negative" Siberian.
He got the Basque simply because he is more Southwestern than those references. And that makes sense as Swedes have more Med stuff than Finns being Germanic.

[Lemminkäinen]

He got the Basque simply because he is more Southwestern than those references. And that makes as Swedes have more Med stuff than Finns being Germanic.

Not true. SW-Finnish + Swedish combo is too Southwestern in this case. There is East Finnish samples and Saami to make a more northern admixture. But you are right that all "oracles" are inaccurate due to overfitting.

[Aren]

Many Swedes from Norrbotten can score straight up Finnish-like, closer to the Finnish averages than the Swedish. I believe many there are aware of their recent Finnish roots though.

[Leto]

Not true. SW-Finnish + Swedish combo is too Southwestern in this case. There is East Finnish samples and Saami to make a more northern admixture. But you are right that all "oracles" are inaccurate due to overfitting.
Why not true, migrec even mentioned Walloon ancestry. Danish + Basque would be proxy for Walloon :D

[Lemminkäinen]

Many Swedes from Norrbotten can score straight up Finnish-like, closer to the Finnish averages than the Swedish. I believe many there are aware of their recent Finnish roots though.

Yeah, Finnish Birkarls moved there 700 years ago, Saamis lived there already earlier. Hälsinglander moved after Birlkars.

[Lemminkäinen]

Why not true, migrec even mentioned Walloon ancestry. Danish + Basque would be proxy for Walloon :D

In case of "oracles" I use Occam's razor and it says that we don't need to use more than minimum components. The more we have components, the more the result can be wrong.

[Aren]

Yeah, Finnish Birkarls moved there 700 years ago, Saamis lived there already earlier. Hälsinglander moved after Birlkars.

Saamis are medieval arrivals to northern Scandinavia. Their homeland is lakeland Finland.

[Östsvensk]

Many Swedes from Norrbotten can score straight up Finnish-like, closer to the Finnish averages than the Swedish. I believe many there are aware of their recent Finnish roots though.

Perhaps this North Swedish Social Democratic woman should test herself:


"Lapps I do not like, they only exploit our welfare system. And by the way, the Finns who have not learned Swedish, I also do not like". This is what Margaretha Vikman (s) allegedly said at a training day in Kalix on Monday.

A centre party member, Valter Lindh, left the event in protest. He was in the same group as Vikman.

- We worked with visions for Kalix municipality so I do not understand what the statement about Lapps and Finns had to do with the matter. I said 'You are a racist' and the honourable member said 'yes, as far as these are concerned, I am a racist', says Valter Lindh to NSD, the Social Democrat in northern Sweden.

According to the newspaper, Margaretha Vikman says that she stands for her statements but also adds that "I was well too excitable and may have expressed myself too strongly".

https://www.folkbladet.nu/2011-05-06/lappar-tycker-jag-inte-om

[Lemminkäinen]

Saamis are medieval arrivals to northern Scandinavia. Their homeland is lakeland Finland.

No, South Saamis didn't come from Finland so late, also Saamis in Norrboyten and Västerbotten lived there already in Iron Age.

[Lemminkäinen]

Perhaps this North Swedish Social Democratic woman should test herself:


"Lapps I do not like, they only exploit our welfare system. And by the way, the Finns who have not learned Swedish, I also do not like". This is what Margaretha Vikman (s) allegedly said at a training day in Kalix on Monday.

A centre party member, Valter Lindh, left the event in protest. He was in the same group as Vikman.

- We worked with visions for Kalix municipality so I do not understand what the statement about Lapps and Finns had to do with the matter. I said 'You are a racist' and the honourable member said 'yes, as far as these are concerned, I am a racist', says Valter Lindh to NSD, the Social Democrat in northern Sweden.

According to the newspaper, Margaretha Vikman says that she stands for her statements but also adds that "I was well too excitable and may have expressed myself too strongly".

https://www.folkbladet.nu/2011-05-06/lappar-tycker-jag-inte-om

Lol, Swedes came later there. Birlkars should have given Kalix (in Finnish Kainuujoki) to Karelians and Muscovites ;)

[Aren]

No, South Saamis didn't come from Finland so late, also Saamis in Norrboyten and Västerbotten lived there already in Iron Age.

In post-Roman Iron Age Levänluhta(southern Finland) just before the Viking era we found genomes of early Saamis and and one Germanic-like woman, no Baltic Finns. So a couple centuries after the proto-Saami period, the Saamis were still in southern Finland - not yet pushed north by the Finnics.
There are no established Iron Age sites in northern Scandinavia north of Jämtland and the Northern Norwegian coast(AFAIK) so I doubt there were Saamis living there.

[Lemminkäinen]

In post-Roman Iron Age Levänluhta(southern Finland) just before the Viking era we found genomes of early Saamis and and one Germanic-like woman, no Baltic Finns. So a couple centuries after the proto-Saami period, the Saamis were still in southern Finland - not yet pushed north by the Finnics.
There are no established Iron Age sites in northern Scandinavia north of Jämtland and the Northern Norwegian coast(AFAIK) so I doubt there were Saamis living there.


Saamis were still in southern Finland - not yet pushed north by the Finnics.

They were also in Western Finland, because the Finnish population lived still and only in Finland Proper. But Saamis were already in Scandinavia an still in Tavastia. Go to some Swedish university and let them tell you.

[Lemminkäinen]

This is probably not the most reliable source being in English and just now I recommed you to read about the early medieval Swedish history. If you want read about Iron Age you have to read archaeological studies, because it is prehistory also in Sweden. Early Saamis were not reindeer herders, but fishers and hunters. Reindeer herders came from Norway to Finland around 1400, but was known in Norway already hundreds years earlier.





The main purpose of the birkarl organization was to control the trade with Sami people and tax them. Legends told that birkarls rights to tax Sami people was given by Magnus the Barnlock, the King of Sweden at that time. Sami people were traditionally taxed by Norwegians already in the Viking Age or even earlier.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkarls


Magnus III (Swedish: Magnus Birgersson/Magnus Ladulås; ca. 1240 – 18 December 1290) was King of Sweden from 1275 until his death in 1290.[1]

This dating fits perfectly with the Finnish history of Birkarls.