PDA

View Full Version : WHG = EHG + X (Bichon-like).



Rethel
01-14-2021, 09:04 PM
Sorry, but I am proved right again, not the first time, but this is probably the hugest one.
As I was suggested many times, WHGs had to have at least EHG admixture (for the eyes'
colour, which happend to occure at the end of WHG "independent" existance) or be a mix
between EHG and some unnamed population (the original the the-C-&-I-pre-whg) as the
admixture analysis suggested such similarity and possibility.

And finally I find the scientific proof for that!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5003663/

"and WHG are a mix of EHG and the Upper Paleolithic Bichon from Switzerland"

And in the supplement:

"Eastern Eurasians have admixture from a population related to the EHG. In Supplementary Information, section 7 we showed that the WHG could be modeled as a mixture of EHG and Switzerland_HG. Discovering this admixture was possible by the availability of the Bichon (Switzerland_HG) individual."

(...)


We model WHG as a mix of Switzerland_HG and a population A (Table S7.24). Remarkably while all triples (WHG, Switzerland_HG, A) are consistent with only two streams of ancestry, only for a subset of them is WHG modeled as a mix of Switzerland_HG and A with a feasible (≤1) proportion of ancestry from Switzerland_HG. This subset includes only populations with EHG ancestry. We verify visually that WHG can be modeled as EHG+Switzerland_HG by plotting statistics of the form f4(WHG, EHG; O2, O3) vs. f4(WHG, Switzerland_HG; O2, O3) for all pairs (O2, O3) of the outgroups. Such statistics (see ref. 1) are anti-correlated and form a line through the origin when WHG is a mix of EHG and Switzerland_HG (Fig. S7.20). Direct evidence for admixture in WHG is provided by the negative f3(WHG; Switzerland_HG, EHG) =-0.01635 (Z=-7.5).

The modeling of ref. 1 made it unclear whether WHG was an admixed population or not (it was determined that at least one of WHG, EHG, MA1 must be). By making use of Switzerland_HG we can now determine that at least WHG is admixed.


(...)

We withhold WHG and re-estimate mixture proportions. We also estimate the mixture proportion of Europe_MNChL by making use of the fact that WHG can be modeled as a mixture of Switzerland_HG and EHG.

(...)

Thus, mixture proportions from “Ghost EHG” are within ~8% of those from actual EHG. Note the successful modeling of Steppe_EMBA when using the Switzerland_HG→WHG cline to infer the “Ghost EHG”: since WHG has mostly Switzerland_HG ancestry, this involves projection well beyond the (Switzerland_HG, WHG) segment




So, I was proved right claiming:
- that R1b (as whole R1) is IE;
- that Rh- was originaly IE;
- that fair complexion was originally IE;
- that N wasn't white and european originaly;
- that EHG = IE = R1;
- that pre-IE western, southern and northern populations of Europe couldn't be fair and pale;
- that Yamnayans are not the only IEs or R1 source at it's time => Yamnaya ≠ onlyIEs;
- and now that WHG had EHG admixture or was a hybrid of EHG and something else;
- and that proves also inevitably, that ANE = EHG+AmInd, ergo = castizo, as I always am saying.

So, you can still be laughing if you want, but the truth will remain as she is,
and will come out sooner or later, regardless of any wishfull thinking agenda.

Linebacker
01-14-2021, 09:09 PM
You know you're not doing a great job of proving people wrong that you are an R1-Supremacist and you are here to cause division among haplogroups.

gixajo
01-14-2021, 09:37 PM
What that paper shows is that a an individual found in Swirzerland could have some EHG admixture.

I could be agree with some of your points, but I don´t think this paper prove any of them.

Rethel
01-14-2021, 09:38 PM
an individual found in Swirzerland could have some EHG admixture.

Absolutly not. Quite opposite.
Btw, many au are based on individuals, f.e. ANE.

Token
01-14-2021, 09:50 PM
2016 paper, you really need to update yourself.

gixajo
01-14-2021, 09:56 PM
Absolutly not. Quite opposite.
Btw, many au are based on individuals, f.e. ANE.

Ok, so I misunderstood your quoted sentences,I read it quickly and I don't usually pay much attention to these issues, sorry .

Anyway if
WHG can be modeled as a mixture of Switzerland_HG and EHG. , EHG could be also modelled with WHG+others , so... is that proof of something beyond that there are individuals who are mixed?

Luso
01-14-2021, 09:59 PM
Someone tlr this

Rethel
01-14-2021, 10:06 PM
Anyway if , EHG could be also modelled with WHG+others

Yes, this is why it could be otherwise as well. But in this second case wasn't known the factor.
This study shows, that he existed and can be define as Bichon, and has much more sense than
the previous one statement which was based on lack of knowledge. And it fits perfectly as after
Bichon time the lightest complexion appeares among WHGeans, what now has it's explanation.


2016 paper, you really need to update yourself.

Doesn't mean it's wrong.

gixajo
01-14-2021, 10:22 PM
Yes, this is why it could be otherwise as well. But in this second case wasn't known the factor.
This study shows, that he existed and can be define as Bichon, and has much more sense than
the previous one statement which was based on lack of knowledge. And it fits perfectly as after
Bichon time the lightest complexion appeares among WHGeans, what now has it's explanation.



Doesn't mean it's wrong.

But the EHG admixture that had that individual explains in your opinion his (maybe) lighter features?

Which % of EHG are we talking about exactly according the model they used?

Rethel
01-15-2021, 06:23 AM
But the EHG admixture that had that individual explains in your opinion his (maybe) lighter features?

This individual has no EHG at all. That's the point.
So, he is a representant of the original WHGeans with only this unknown au, which was different, than this part similar to EHG.

Standard late WHG = EHG+X. But Bichon = X, ergo WHG minus EHG component. The purest WHG.
And that makes a huge difference in interpretation, who is of who mixture.


Which % of EHG are we talking about exactly according the model they used?

If I understood correectly, then 8%. It is +/- what could be suspected as eventual admix.

Jased
01-15-2021, 06:57 AM
Modern Europeans should be thank ful the way they look because of certain components reaching Europe pecially the blonde gene ANE that Is naturally from Eurasia.

Flashball
01-15-2021, 08:02 AM
No.

Italicus
02-01-2022, 02:40 AM
Holy shit. I thought ANE was WHG mixed with mongoloid, buy I guess I was completely wrong.

Petalpusher
02-01-2022, 05:28 PM
Rethel being Rethel he doesn't get there is a cline between WHG-SHG-EHG-ANE. That's like 5 years after the party. EHG has more WHG than WHG has EHG or ANE anyway, 8% taking Bichon as a baseline but nowadays we would rather use Villabruna. A bit of admixture in both directions is expected, and even more in intermediates like SHG's, as they were the only things living there at the time chasing big game around and dealing with changing climates. Furthermore it doesn't prove anything Rethel thinks it proves, especially judging by the incredible amount of highly ANE populations such as Amerindians and Indians with white skin, blue eyes and blond hair. All those are later developpements and recombinations.

Leto
02-01-2022, 06:50 PM
Furthermore it doesn't prove anything Rethel thinks it proves, especially judging by the incredible amount of highly ANE populations such as Amerindians and Indians with white skin, blue eyes and blond hair. All those are later developpements and recombinations.
Never seen such Amer(indians). Are you saying they aren't part white or something?

Petalpusher
02-01-2022, 07:42 PM
Never seen such Amer(indians). Are you saying they aren't part white or something?

No that was ironic. ANE evolved through time like every other ancestral elements, it's just not 100% in a group anymore. We are all much more WHG like than ANE like in Europe today and our is more recent.

Italicus
02-01-2022, 11:24 PM
What, so I'm confused. I thought ANE was WHG mixed with Tianyuan East Eurasian, right? Or is it a completely separate Caucasoid component?

Petalpusher
02-02-2022, 12:02 PM
The general consensus is post OoA, what became Eurasians as we know today, split into a East and a West Eurasians branch. Inside that West branch they split into 3 main isolated strands leading to main/Basal Eurasian around the Near East, WHG around Western Europe, and ANE around Siberia. Later as each populations grew up, they all met back together scattered around West Eurasia, under different strains and proportions:

-A lone hunter element locally in the mesolithic on that WHG/ANE cline (WHG-SHG-EHG-AG).
-A mixture of both Basal Eurasian and WHG in Anatolian farmers, in the neolithic.
-A mix of EHG (ANE+WHG) + CHG (Basal+ANE), in IE of the metal ages.
Finally a clusterfuck of all this, with late cultures of farmers (Globular amphora especially) + IEs when they settled in Europe, leading to Bell Beakers, Corded Ware,.. and everything else today.

it's very possible ANE did trail back a little longer with the East Eurasian branch, as it still shows some affinity to them (about 2/3 west, 1/3 east), or maybe just less isolated in the process due to its original location but it's certainly not an anachronic mix of WHG and East Eurasian like Chineses, it's just less removed from them than WHG managed to overtime, while they had the same source initially. East Asians probably had a similar mixing process, albeit maybe less complicated, it's just not as studied yet in details at every steps.

It would be a normal process even for speciation, isolation>selection>mixing>pressure> selection>isolation, etc...and by mixing we are talking about very related things in the first place that got isolated enough, which speeds up evolution between phase of selection and isolation as the new mix acquires all the painfully selected genes of both elements to choose from. It still happens all the time in animals, humans were not immune from this mechanism, except today we ve reached a technological level that doesn't put any severe pressure on our species anymore (except maybe some sexual selection like height)