Classify Udmurt woman

[travv]

https://i.imgur.com/myy6T7c.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3iloY6V.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tfxvBPA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NA8JSNR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lnGPFwB.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fg4oYBO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5sih9SY.jpg

[kéhán]

uralid

[AnthropologistHK]

Uralic.

[Altaylı]

Uralid.

[Immanenz]

Looks more Tavastid with a bit stronger Ladogan

[Defcon2]

Conventional Northern European.

[Komintasavalta]

I found this girl on VK years ago... My deep archive still had old deleted photos from her VK:

https://i.imgur.com/o2cJjYp.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/a4lS9Ox.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/dn3Hbb2.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/7fCePgP.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/1zudyXz.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/vqeLPBr.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/rqJkS55.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/z9dNZee.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/OZ7zQMS.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/VPTAGjG.jpg

NEUP/Ladogan. She has very low orbits for a female and also a square face shape. I think people with a more square shape also tend to have lower orbits and vice versa.

Northeastern Europeans have such low orbits that they're basically a black race (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?297480-Black-race-confirmed):

https://i.ibb.co/CnnVSpg/orbitalindex.png
https://i.ibb.co/kXjyy90/orb.png

Udmurts with low orbits (http://collection.kunstkamera.ru/en/entity/OBJECT?ethnos=3507881):

https://i.ibb.co/Y3H9zk8/a.jpg

[Hic et nunc]

Ladogan.

[sevruk]

Sub lappid, not uralische

[Viridian1]

Ladogan, Alpine.

[Roy]

Sub-Uralic

[Yamyam]

Lappono-Uralid

[Lemminkäinen]

Sub lappid, not uralische

Second this.

[CommonSense]

Iris would look just like her if her growth hadn't been stunted.

[Komintasavalta]

I thought she looked like Iris too... If short girls are stunted, then tall girls are girls who failed to develop Ural lowbutt (https://www.e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-50546811.html).

Sublaponoid is one of the most Uralisch types though. Trofimova wrote that Sublaponoid corresponds to the Volga-Kama type of Bunak (http://static.iea.ras.ru/books/Trofimova_Etnogenez_tatar.pdf, page 224): "Рпс. 28. Сублапоноидные типы (волго-камская раса по Бунаку)."

In Finnish schools we are tought that Uralic languages came from the "bend of the Volga", which refers to the turn between the Volga-Kama intersection and Kazan:

https://i.ibb.co/8BnYz3K/a.jpg

[sevruk]

Second this.

Uralische have narrower faces


https://i.ibb.co/2338bqB/hanty-list-3-N8382.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/J3CMhTH/hanty-list-9-N715-716.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tqMxSVg/hanty-list-13-N736-737.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/HCRrVkg/hanty-list-29-N820-821.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/XsN0FWb/hanty-list-33-N842.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/fF7G2dd/selkupy-laskino-N59.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/hcQ6zc0/selkupy-sondorovo-5-N11.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/0ZYxzv5/selkupy-sondorovo-6-N15.jpg

[Dominator]

Ostbalt

[Lemminkäinen]

I thought she looked like Iris too... If short girls are stunted, then tall girls are girls who failed to develop Ural lowbutt (https://www.e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-50546811.html).

Sublaponoid is one of the most Uralisch types though. Trofimova wrote that Sublaponoid corresponds to the Volga-Kama type of Bunak (http://static.iea.ras.ru/books/Trofimova_Etnogenez_tatar.pdf, page 224): "Рпс. 28. Сублапоноидные типы (волго-камская раса по Бунаку)."

In Finnish schools we are tought that Uralic languages came from the "bend of the Volga", which refers to the turn between the Volga-Kama intersection and Kazan:

https://i.ibb.co/8BnYz3K/a.jpg

Saami language belongs to the Uralic group, but the Saami phenotype is a separate case and belongs to Fennoscandinavian prehistoric subgroups. Fennoscandinavia was populated long before the Finno-Ugric migration. Similarly people in Sweden, Norway, Estonia and Finland differ from other Uralic and Germanic groups.

[Komintasavalta]

Saami language belongs to the Uralic group, but the Saami phenotype is a separate case and belongs to Fennoscandinavian prehistoric subgroups. Fennoscandinavia was populated long before the Finno-Ugric migration. Similarly people in Sweden, Norway, Estonia and Finland differ from other Uralic and Germanic groups.

In Soviet anthropology, the Sublaponoid type is not associated with Saami but with peoples of the Volga-Ural region (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сублапоноидный_тип, translated):


The sublaponoid anthropological type is characterized by meso-sub brachycephaly, mixed pigmentation of hair and eyes, wide and low nose nose, weak beard growth and a short, medium-wide face with a tendency to flattening. A fold of the eyelid is quite common with a weak development of the epicanthus. Typical for the Udmurts, Chuvashes, Bashkirs, and Tatars. In Soviet literature, the sublaponoid type is referred to as the Volga-Kama race.

Sublaponoid/Volga-Kama also corresponds to Bunak's Vyatka-Kama type (https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25749116.pdf?seq=29, translated):


The closer relationship between the Lappid and Uralic types is currently far from clear. According to a widespread opinion, the Lappid type is very close to the basis of the oldest European brachycephala. However, there is no evidence to support such a claim. Although individual specimens of the Neolithic brachycephalic skulls, especially in the north, have some features reminiscent of lobes, the type of the greater part of these skulls, especially in the west, is clearly different from the Lappid ones. I therefore consider it right to regard the Lappid type as a special Proto-Asiatic branch which developed in ancient times independently of the Ural in other regions and in another epoch. The Lappid, or to follow only the geographical terminology, the western race of the great Proto-Asiatic race is nowadays represented in Eastern Europe by two sub-races: Scandinavian (Lappid proper) and Vyatka-Kama.

Bunak listed Udmurts and Komi-Permyaks as the most characteristic representatives of the Vyatka-Kama type.

[Lemminkäinen]

In Soviet anthropology, the Sublaponoid type is not associated with Saami but with peoples of the Volga-Ural region (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сублапоноидный_тип, translated):


The sublaponoid anthropological type is characterized by meso-sub brachycephaly, mixed pigmentation of hair and eyes, wide and low nose nose, weak beard growth and a short, medium-wide face with a tendency to flattening. A fold of the eyelid is quite common with a weak development of the epicanthus. Typical for the Udmurts, Chuvashes, Bashkirs, and Tatars. In Soviet literature, the sublaponoid type is referred to as the Volga-Kama race.

Sublaponoid/Volga-Kama also corresponds to Bunak's Vyatka-Kama type (https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25749116.pdf?seq=29, translated):


The closer relationship between the Lappid and Uralic types is currently far from clear. According to a widespread opinion, the Lappid type is very close to the basis of the oldest European brachycephala. However, there is no evidence to support such a claim. Although individual specimens of the Neolithic brachycephalic skulls, especially in the north, have some features reminiscent of lobes, the type of the greater part of these skulls, especially in the west, is clearly different from the Lappid ones. I therefore consider it right to regard the Lappid type as a special Proto-Asiatic branch which developed in ancient times independently of the Ural in other regions and in another epoch. The Lappid, or to follow only the geographical terminology, the western race of the great Proto-Asiatic race is nowadays represented in Eastern Europe by two sub-races: Scandinavian (Lappid proper) and Vyatka-Kama.

Bunak listed Udmurts and Komi-Permyaks as the most characteristic representatives of the Vyatka-Kama type.

Quite confusing nomenclatures, because Lapland is in Fennoscandinavia, but I understand that Russians create things from their point of view, like Americans from theirs. Anyway Russians seem to understand the difference between west and east. They however invent thrir own nomenclatures, nothing more in this case.

Finno-Ugric is also very confusing invention, because there are no Finns in Russia or in the Volga/Ural region. The origin of the word family "Fin" pointing people is in Fennoscandinavia. In Norwegian "Finns" meant Saamis and in Baltic- Finnic languages it meant people living in Southwestern Finland. Both etymologies are too old to give absolute answers, but we could see a common etymology reaching the time when Saamis still lived in SW-Finland and the word family meant a place somewhere there. Also the word family Lapland/Lapps was invented in Fennoscandinavia.

IDK if Russians do this intentionally to create confusion and something political.

[Komintasavalta]

Quite confusing nomenclatures, because Lapland is in Fennoscandinavia, but I understand that Russians create things from their point of view, like Americans from theirs. Anyway Russians seem to understand the difference between west and east. They however invent thrir own nomenclatures, nothing more in this case.

Finno-Ugric is also very confusing invention, because there are no Finns in Russia or in the Volga/Ural region. The origin of the word family "Fin" pointing people is in Fennoscandinavia. In Norwegian "Finns" meant Saamis and in Baltic- Finnic languages it meant people living in Southwestern Finland. Both etymologies are too old to give absolute answers, but we could see a common etymology reaching the time when Saamis still lived in SW-Finland and the word family meant a place somewhere there. Also the word family Lapland/Lapps was invented in Fennoscandinavia.

IDK if Russians do this intentionally to create confusion and something political.

One reason why Bunak viewed Maris as sub-Uralid but Komis as sub-Lappid might also be that Bunak listed Komis as having higher cephalic index than Maris (https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25749116.pdf?seq=12):

https://i.ibb.co/J21PM1B/20210117205833.jpg

In this heatmap I made based on Karin Mark's measurements (http://muinainensuomi.foorumi.eu/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3020), the left cluster is first divided into Saami and everyone else, and the first to branch off in the cluster for everyone else are Udmurts and Komi-Permyaks (who are precisely the people who Bunak listed as the most typical sub-Lappids).

https://i.imgur.com/O8UTPZ2.png

[Komintasavalta]

I compiled Karin Mark's measurements into a table that contained 59 columns (see the link in my previous post).

I then calculated a distance between each population by converting the columns to z-scores and by calculating the average difference of the z-scores of each population.

The distance to Udmurts was the lowest for Komi-Permyaks:

.51 Komi-Permyak
.55 Mari
.56 Udmurt (Besserman)
.61 Chuvash
.64 Komi-Zyrian
.65 Volga Tatar
.67 Moksha
.67 Russian (Middle Volga)
.72 Erzya
.73 Vepsian
.76 Bashkir
.77 Karatai Mordvin
.86 Karelian
.92 Izhorian
1.00 Votic-Izhorian
1.02 Teryukhan Mordvin
1.04 Saami
1.08 Finnish
1.10 Finnish (Ingrian)
1.11 Estonian
1.15 Kola Saami
1.29 Finland-Swede
1.30 Finnish (Northeast)
1.31 Livonian
1.40 Mansi
1.45 Khanty

Udmurts had the highest z-score for the percentage of red hair, which was over 2 SDs above average. The head width and head length of Udmurts were both over 1 SDs below average. However the bigonial width of Udmurts was only slightly below average, so maybe a square face like the girl in this thread has is actually characteristic of Udmurts.

2.23 % red hair
.81 % dark eyes
.81 % strongly protruding cheekbones
.78 protrusion of cheekbones
.74 average eye color
.64 mouth width-height index
.62 mouth height
.57 eye tilt
.54 % almost perpendicular nostrils
.47 height of nasal root
.46 % mixed eyes
.45 % eyes tilted upwards
.44 % wavy nose
.42 convex vs concave nose
.40 strength of inner eyelid fold
.40 oval vs round nostrils
.30 % dark brown and black hair
.26 protruding vs flat nose
.21 facial index (Soviet method measured from eyebrows)
.21 facial index (converted to Western method)
.18 average hair color
.17 % convex nose
.16 % flat facial profile
.16 nose height (Soviet method from eyebrows)
.13 % light blonde hair
.12 % straight nose
.12 nose width
.12 nasal index (Soviet)
.12 nasal index (Western)
.09 profiled vs flat face
.05 % light blonde + blonde + dark blonde hair
.05 % blonde hair
.03 % dark blonde hair
.02 downturned vs upturned nose
-.01 % flat nose
-.01 palpebral fissure width
-.01 face height (Soviet method from eyebrows)
-.04 % narrow palpebral fissure width
-.05 straight vs tilted forehead
-.07 parallel vs perpendicular nostrils
-.17 beard density
-.18 cephalic index
-.30 bigonial width
-.38 % no inner eyelid fold
-.43 prominent vs receding chin
-.46 bizygomatic width
-.53 % concave nose
-.55 upper lip height
-.55 % brown hair
-.56 % no Mongolian fold
-.60 mouth width
-.70 height
-.70 % light eyes
-.86 browridge prominence
-.94 rectracted vs prominent upper lip
-1.09 head length
-1.12 minimum frontal width
-1.31 head length + width
-1.34 head width

Udmurts were the population with the highest bizygomatic-bigonial ratio (which Harkonnen calls "bigonial index"). The ratio of cranium width to bigonial width was the highest in Mansi, followed by Bessermans, Udmurts, and Khanty.