Classify Mari girl. Is she textbook Volgid?

[travv]

https://i.imgur.com/wsWzmam.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AN35KXg.jpg

[Komintasavalta]

I tried searching for "wjatkid" on Google Books (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=wjatkid). It returned a short excerpt from Lundman's book "Jordens människoraser och folkstammar", and by searching for text within the excerpt I found an old post on Skadi with a longer quote from Lundman's book (translated from Swedish) (https://forums.skadi.net/threads/74099-Lundman-om-de-finska-folken):


At the Volga, the intrusions now absorbed the older population of predominantly Wjatkid race (and unknown, though certainly not "Altaic" language affiliation). The Volga Finns still surviving in these areas also show a predominantly Eastern Baltic-Wjatkid racial mix, although of course nowadays some Turkomongolian (Cumin) and Russian (of various races) elements have been added. - Some Finno-Ugric tribes, the Ugric Voguls and the Ostyaks have pushed or displaced far to the east, into Siberia (and Siberian poverty). However, they are now racially almost entirely of the extremely low-skulled "pre-Mongoloid" Obid race of these regions. - A third Ugric tribe, the Hungarians, on the other hand, became a steppe people and ended up in a completely different direction. Important for us here, is that the Hungarians in the areas where they are most unmixed, ss szekles in Transylvania, are still strongly blonde and Eastern Baltic. - (Usually the children are otherwise darker.)

It is conceivable that during the earlier part of the Volga period the connection with or division of the ancestors into the present Samoyeds was also effected, if it could not have taken place earlier. [...]

They may then have lived in the current Eastern Baltics and adjacent parts of Western Russia, as well as parts of Finland (southwestern Finland was already "Germanic" during the Stone Age) - if, as Finnish researchers like it, the Eastern Baltic race is roughly the Finnish the "urras" of the Ugric peoples and the so-called Comb Ceramic (Stone Age) culture closely associated with these peoples. Then, as the cultural conditions indicate, the Finno-Ugric people would soon be forced to the east and already at the end of the Stone Age at Oka and the central Volga would have a secondary distribution center. However, some tribes have probably remained in the old area in eastern Finland and at Pejpus. But the emphasis on the cultural and linguistic development of the tribal group as a whole had, so to speak, been shifted away towards the Volga.


So it seems like Lundman considered that the homeland of Finno-Ugric people was in the west, that Wjatkid represented a pre-Uralic type of the Volga-Ural region, and that the present-day Uralic peoples of the Volga-Ural region were mixes between Wjatkid and East Baltid.

Lundman proposed that Savolaxid represented the original Finno-Ugric type and that the Tavastid type formed when Savolaxids mixed with Balts or Germanics:


In the last millennium before the birth of Christ, the stream of Finno-Ugric tribes, which had hitherto gone mainly to the east, turned to the west. Some tribes then pushed across the Valdai back towards the Baltic coast, which was reached in present-day Estonia and Ingria. Below this, the Eastern Baltic blood was strengthened in them by merging with the tribal relatives who remained in the old ancestral home all the time. In the southwest of the Baltic Sea and at Dyna, there was contact with Latvian-Lithuanians (who at that time spread far into Russia, perhaps all the way to Smolensk), and probably already Germans. The westernmost, now Baltic-Finnish tribes mixed with these and thus the Tavastid subrace arose. However, it has since had millennia of self-development, which among others is shown by its slightly wider head in relation to the more eastern Baltic (and of course also the Indo-Europeans of that time). - As the actual Finno-Ugric primeval breed, on the other hand, you can consider my Savolaxid sub-race.

So I guess if dark short VURish girls are Volgid/Wjatkid then this is it.

[Komintasavalta]

The girl in this thread seems to have a fairly elongated face shape, but I don't know if that's supposed to be a characteristic of the Volgid/Wjatkid/Volga-Kama/sub-Uralid type or not.

Based on Karin Mark's measurements, Maris and Chuvashes had slightly higher facial index than Udmurts or Komis (https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/statystyki-krajow-regionow-populacji/europa/ludy-ugrofinskie-antropologia-fizyczna). In the table below, facial index is based on the Soviet method of measuring facial height from the glabella and not the nasion. A formula for converting the facial index measurements to the Western method is to subtract 3.2 points.

(facial index;cephalic index;population)
91.7;79.9;Karatai Mordvin
91.4;81.1;Chuvash
91.4;78.9;Finland-Swede
91.0;80.5;Teryukhan Mordvin
91.0;79.9;Bashkir
90.7;82.6;Votic-Izhorian
90.7;80.4;Udmurt (Besserman)
90.5;81.1;Mari
90.5;79.4;Erzya
90.4;80.1;Finnish
90.4;78.6;Moksha
90.3;82.7;Izhorian
90.3;80.6;Russian (Middle Volga)
89.8;81.2;Komi-Permyak
89.8;80.0;Volga Tatar
89.8;80.7;Udmurt
89.4;81.5;Komi-Zyrian
89.1;82.7;Finnish (Ingrian)
89.1;81.1;Karelian
88.9;80.9;Estonian
88.7;79.9;Khanty
88.5;81.3;Vepsian
88.4;81.1;Livonian
87.6;80.4;Mansi
85.2;82.9;Finnish (Northeast)
84.3;82.2;Kola Saami
84.0;83.1;Saami

According to the measurements below published by Bunak, Maris had the lowest cephalic index in the Volga-Ural region, which might partially explain why Bunak considered Maris to not be sub-Lappid (https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25749116.pdf?seq=12):

https://i.ibb.co/J21PM1B/20210117205833.jpg

Here Bunak listed the average cephalic index as 80 for the Mittel-Wolga type and as 82 for the Wjatka-Kama type (https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/25749116.pdf?seq=36). However he actually listed Mittel-Wolga as having a higher facial index than Wjatka-Kama.

https://i.ibb.co/Zx2xkV6/bunak1932.jpg

[Immanenz]

imo a bit more into Sub-Volgid direction, but i have a bit of a struggle to differeinciate between those types.

should this be a textbook Volgid?

https://antropologia-fizyczna.pl/images/typologia/berti/wyatkid.jpg

[travv]

Volgid is one of the most beautiful VURisch types to my eyes.

Dark hair + blue eyes + mongoloidish vibe is typical combination here.


https://i.imgur.com/78CKqEN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eaWhcx8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2Q6BI5Z.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KztDvD8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1OaNwtZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BOuQIoi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/faJgfoH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/160oemq.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JCPiYuc.jpg

[Jana]

Another unter looking from Uralid stable. Looks Balkan though, not Uralid xD

[travv]

Looks Balkan though, not Uralid xD

Don't be so OWD she doesn't look Balkan or European at all. Pass only here.

Btw I know you're saying this so I can get butthurt. But I don't react anymore to your provocations.

[Seya]

Don't be so OWD she doesn't look Balkan or European at all. Pass only here.

Btw I know you're saying this so I can get butthurt. But I don't react anymore to your provocations.

It's true tho. 99% of these women you're posting look completely foreign to me but the OP woman looks Romanian as hell

[Jana]

Don't be so OWD she doesn't look Balkan or European at all. Pass only here.

Btw I know you're saying this so I can get butthurt. But I don't react anymore to your provocations.

She looks Balkan, I'm serious. And please, let's not call such WOG as white standard. She looks Turkish in comparison with me.

[travv]

She looks Balkan, I'm serious. And please, let's not call such WOG as white standard. She looks Turkish in comparison with me.

Again. You again use this word "white" in Uralisch thread.

Me and Komintasavalta never use this word in relation to Uralisch people. It's even insulting for us to compare Uralisch beauties with whites.

In Russian anthropology the Uralisch race is sometimes called as "the third race of Eurasia".

It's not my fault that they look "whiter" than some brown Europeans.

[Komintasavalta]

In this photo the other girl looks more like a wog, because she has a narrower face, a more downturned nose with a shorter distance between the nose and the mouth, higher palpebral fissure height, a narrower and less depressed nasal root, a narrower nose, and lower cheekbones.

https://i.ibb.co/DbSmf4G/a.jpg

Also here the girl on the left looks more woggy, because she has a smaller face with smaller cheekbones, a longer and more downturned nose, a narrower and less depressed nasal root, etc.

https://i.ibb.co/Dpc0MMQ/20210118224657.jpg

The girl in this thread looks like a pigmented non-wog which is the opposite of a depigmented wog. The two other girls look semi-MENA like generic IE Europeans.

[Lemminkäinen]

I tried searching for "wjatkid" on Google Books (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=wjatkid). It returned a short excerpt from Lundman's book "Jordens människoraser och folkstammar", and by searching for text within the excerpt I found an old post on Skadi with a longer quote from Lundman's book (translated from Swedish) (https://forums.skadi.net/threads/74099-Lundman-om-de-finska-folken):


At the Volga, the intrusions now absorbed the older population of predominantly Wjatkid race (and unknown, though certainly not "Altaic" language affiliation). The Volga Finns still surviving in these areas also show a predominantly Eastern Baltic-Wjatkid racial mix, although of course nowadays some Turkomongolian (Cumin) and Russian (of various races) elements have been added. - Some Finno-Ugric tribes, the Ugric Voguls and the Ostyaks have pushed or displaced far to the east, into Siberia (and Siberian poverty). However, they are now racially almost entirely of the extremely low-skulled "pre-Mongoloid" Obid race of these regions. - A third Ugric tribe, the Hungarians, on the other hand, became a steppe people and ended up in a completely different direction. Important for us here, is that the Hungarians in the areas where they are most unmixed, ss szekles in Transylvania, are still strongly blonde and Eastern Baltic. - (Usually the children are otherwise darker.)

It is conceivable that during the earlier part of the Volga period the connection with or division of the ancestors into the present Samoyeds was also effected, if it could not have taken place earlier. [...]

They may then have lived in the current Eastern Baltics and adjacent parts of Western Russia, as well as parts of Finland (southwestern Finland was already "Germanic" during the Stone Age) - if, as Finnish researchers like it, the Eastern Baltic race is roughly the Finnish the "urras" of the Ugric peoples and the so-called Comb Ceramic (Stone Age) culture closely associated with these peoples. Then, as the cultural conditions indicate, the Finno-Ugric people would soon be forced to the east and already at the end of the Stone Age at Oka and the central Volga would have a secondary distribution center. However, some tribes have probably remained in the old area in eastern Finland and at Pejpus. But the emphasis on the cultural and linguistic development of the tribal group as a whole had, so to speak, been shifted away towards the Volga.


So it seems like Lundman considered that the homeland of Finno-Ugric people was in the west, that Wjatkid represented a pre-Uralic type of the Volga-Ural region, and that the present-day Uralic peoples of the Volga-Ural region were mixes between Wjatkid and East Baltid.

Lundman proposed that Savolaxid represented the original Finno-Ugric type and that the Tavastid type formed when Savolaxids mixed with Balts or Germanics:


In the last millennium before the birth of Christ, the stream of Finno-Ugric tribes, which had hitherto gone mainly to the east, turned to the west. Some tribes then pushed across the Valdai back towards the Baltic coast, which was reached in present-day Estonia and Ingria. Below this, the Eastern Baltic blood was strengthened in them by merging with the tribal relatives who remained in the old ancestral home all the time. In the southwest of the Baltic Sea and at Dyna, there was contact with Latvian-Lithuanians (who at that time spread far into Russia, perhaps all the way to Smolensk), and probably already Germans. The westernmost, now Baltic-Finnish tribes mixed with these and thus the Tavastid subrace arose. However, it has since had millennia of self-development, which among others is shown by its slightly wider head in relation to the more eastern Baltic (and of course also the Indo-Europeans of that time). - As the actual Finno-Ugric primeval breed, on the other hand, you can consider my Savolaxid sub-race.

So I guess if dark short VURish girls are Volgid/Wjatkid then this is it.

Knowing the Finnish history, as you sure know it, you know that all this Stone Age Germanic people in Finland and Tavastians being mixed Savolaxians is all rubbish. Why don't you keep in facts and continuosly write rubbish like that on a anglophone forum, drivel that you wouldn't ever write on Finnish forums.

[Lemminkäinen]

Again. You again use this word "white" in Uralisch thread.

Me and Komintasavalta never use this word in relation to Uralisch people. It's even insulting for us to compare Uralisch beauties with whites.

In Russian anthropology the Uralisch race is sometimes called as "the third race of Eurasia".

It's not my fault that they look "whiter" than some brown Europeans.

Russian anthropology is probably something that ends up to Putinische anthropology :).

[Komintasavalta]

Knowing the Finnish history, as you sure know it, you know that all this Stone Age Germanic people in Finland and Tavastians being mixed Savolaxians is all rubbish. Why don't you keep in facts and continuosly write rubbish like that on a anglophone forum, drivel that you wouldn't ever write on Finnish forums.

The Volgid type was coined by Lundman according to HPT (http://humanphenotypes.net/Volgid.html), so I was quoting Lundman to give an idea of what we should consider the "textbook Volgid". What he wrote about Uralic origins is of course wrong.

But if for example Lundman thought that the present-day population of the VUR is a mixture of Volgids and East Baltids, and that a light-pigmented element is derived from East Baltids, then it makes sense to consider Volgid a dark-pigmented type.

[travv]

It's true tho. 99% of these women you're posting look completely foreign to me but the OP woman looks Romanian as hell

I din't think so.

On this photo she looks almost Nenets.


https://i.ibb.co/Dpc0MMQ/20210118224657.jpg

[Lemminkäinen]

The Volgid type was coined by Lundman according to HPT (http://humanphenotypes.net/Volgid.html), so I was quoting Lundman to give an idea of what we should consider the "textbook Volgid". What he wrote about Uralic origins is of course wrong.

But if for example Lundman thought that the present-day population of the VUR is a mixture of Volgids and East Baltids, and that a light-pigmented element is derived from East Baltids, then it makes sense to consider Volgid a dark-pigmented type.

But you often make large quotes including out of date information instead of quoting modern science. People here have not ability to use Finnish, Estonian or even German and Swedish acadenic sources, so they understand that your quotes are still valid. There is of course also good academic Russian sources, but Russian text books are probably comparable to Russisn political views about the war history. I see this being the main reason to use old fashion Russian anthropology.

Sure people living in the Ural area can be dark. Did they mix with Balts or Slavs then? On the other hand I don't brlieve that Komis mixed with Balts. Mordvas did.

[Seya]

I din't think so.

On this photo she looks almost Nenets.


https://i.ibb.co/Dpc0MMQ/20210118224657.jpg


It depends on the picture I see still she doesn't look off
Romanian gymnastic team
https://i.imgur.com/V2sRytJ.jpg

[travv]

It depends on the picture I see still she doesn't look off
Romanian gymnastic team


Seya I think you should make an anthropological expedition in here.

But it can not be safe for you in this time of year.


You Romanians would freeze in this place in 10 minutes;)

Here is place where I live now (Mari El). It was about 30 degrees yesterday.


https://i.imgur.com/8meeyCQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1SrC7uJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/twx10Kz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7lkkIJc.jpg



But I'm sure you won't get cold in a warm Mari fur coat
https://i.imgur.com/av2qZpa.jpg

[Chinese Kurd]

Seya I think you should make an anthropological expedition in here.

But it can not be safe for you in this time of year.



Here is place where I live now (Mari El). It was about 30 degrees yesterday.


https://i.imgur.com/8meeyCQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1SrC7uJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/twx10Kz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7lkkIJc.jpg



But I'm sure you won't get cold in a warm Mari fur coat
https://i.imgur.com/av2qZpa.jpg

It was -32 degrees in Bolu yesterday

[travv]

It was -32 degrees in Bolu yesterday


https://i.imgur.com/0cr907D.png

You're cheating because you want her to choose Bolu not Mari El. Show me your snow.

[Lemminkäinen]

Seya I think you should make an anthropological expedition in here.

But it can not be safe for you in this time of year.



Here is place where I live now (Mari El). It was about 30 degrees yesterday.


https://i.imgur.com/8meeyCQ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/1SrC7uJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/twx10Kz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7lkkIJc.jpg



But I'm sure you won't get cold in a warm Mari fur coat
https://i.imgur.com/av2qZpa.jpg

I remember those felt boots. Never felt cold in them! Children used them in the 50's. Some people used Russian headscarfs in the 70's. Back then the Russian influence was strongest, fading 10 years later. Now we have the American era. Hopefully also it is gone soon. We don't need those bubbles making people mad.

[Östsvensk]

I tried searching for "wjatkid" on Google Books (https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=wjatkid). It returned a short excerpt from Lundman's book "Jordens människoraser och folkstammar", and by searching for text within the excerpt I found an old post on Skadi with a longer quote from Lundman's book (translated from Swedish) (https://forums.skadi.net/threads/74099-Lundman-om-de-finska-folken):


At the Volga, the intrusions now absorbed the older population of predominantly Wjatkid race (and unknown, though certainly not "Altaic" language affiliation). The Volga Finns still surviving in these areas also show a predominantly Eastern Baltic-Wjatkid racial mix, although of course nowadays some Turkomongolian (Cumin) and Russian (of various races) elements have been added. - Some Finno-Ugric tribes, the Ugric Voguls and the Ostyaks have pushed or displaced far to the east, into Siberia (and Siberian poverty). However, they are now racially almost entirely of the extremely low-skulled "pre-Mongoloid" Obid race of these regions. - A third Ugric tribe, the Hungarians, on the other hand, became a steppe people and ended up in a completely different direction. Important for us here, is that the Hungarians in the areas where they are most unmixed, ss szekles in Transylvania, are still strongly blonde and Eastern Baltic. - (Usually the children are otherwise darker.)

It is conceivable that during the earlier part of the Volga period the connection with or division of the ancestors into the present Samoyeds was also effected, if it could not have taken place earlier. [...]

They may then have lived in the current Eastern Baltics and adjacent parts of Western Russia, as well as parts of Finland (southwestern Finland was already "Germanic" during the Stone Age) - if, as Finnish researchers like it, the Eastern Baltic race is roughly the Finnish the "urras" of the Ugric peoples and the so-called Comb Ceramic (Stone Age) culture closely associated with these peoples. Then, as the cultural conditions indicate, the Finno-Ugric people would soon be forced to the east and already at the end of the Stone Age at Oka and the central Volga would have a secondary distribution center. However, some tribes have probably remained in the old area in eastern Finland and at Pejpus. But the emphasis on the cultural and linguistic development of the tribal group as a whole had, so to speak, been shifted away towards the Volga.


So it seems like Lundman considered that the homeland of Finno-Ugric people was in the west, that Wjatkid represented a pre-Uralic type of the Volga-Ural region, and that the present-day Uralic peoples of the Volga-Ural region were mixes between Wjatkid and East Baltid.

Lundman proposed that Savolaxid represented the original Finno-Ugric type and that the Tavastid type formed when Savolaxids mixed with Balts or Germanics:


In the last millennium before the birth of Christ, the stream of Finno-Ugric tribes, which had hitherto gone mainly to the east, turned to the west. Some tribes then pushed across the Valdai back towards the Baltic coast, which was reached in present-day Estonia and Ingria. Below this, the Eastern Baltic blood was strengthened in them by merging with the tribal relatives who remained in the old ancestral home all the time. In the southwest of the Baltic Sea and at Dyna, there was contact with Latvian-Lithuanians (who at that time spread far into Russia, perhaps all the way to Smolensk), and probably already Germans. The westernmost, now Baltic-Finnish tribes mixed with these and thus the Tavastid subrace arose. However, it has since had millennia of self-development, which among others is shown by its slightly wider head in relation to the more eastern Baltic (and of course also the Indo-Europeans of that time). - As the actual Finno-Ugric primeval breed, on the other hand, you can consider my Savolaxid sub-race.

So I guess if dark short VURish girls are Volgid/Wjatkid then this is it.

Lundman rejected the Volga Urals theory as being the homeland of the Finns, saying that it was a way too hot region for a majority light-eyed and light-haired population like Finns to have evolved in.

He believed that East Finns came first to Finland, that Savolaxid was the original East Baltid and that West Finns were sprung out of Savolaxids mixing with Germanics. He did not think that Finno-Ugrian speakers were racially homogeneous, but that high-skulled Savolaxids were racially intact since their birth and that they were closely related to the high-skulled Indo-Europeans of the East Nordid type. So I guess that he did not hold to the contemporary view held by some that modern-day Finns became predominantly European after a bunch of Scandinavian women got impregnated by Eastern invaders as some prehistoric multiculturalism in the North.

[Not a Cop]

Russian anthropology is probably something that ends up to Putinische anthropology :).

Russian physical anthropology is probably most advanced in the world though. Third race of eurasia was a concept which proposed that Uralic race was not Europoid or Mongoloid, but a divergent form, which had it's own unique evolution due to isolation from times before the formation of greater races. Somewhat akin to ANE concept.

[Immanenz]

Russian physical anthropology is probably most advanced in the world though. Third race of eurasia was a concept which proposed that Uralic race was not Europoid or Mongoloid, but a divergent form, which had it's own unique evolution due to isolation from times before the formation of greater races. Somewhat akin to ANE concept.

they had certainly their own reason to think like that, being connected to it in a way.

[Lemminkäinen]

Lundman rejected the Volga Urals theory as being the homeland of the Finns, saying that it was a way too hot region for a majority light-eyed and light-haired population like Finns to have evolved in.

He believed that East Finns came first to Finland, that Savolaxid was the original East Baltid and that West Finns were sprung out of Savolaxids mixing with Germanics. He did not think that Finno-Ugrian speakers were racially homogeneous, but that high-skulled Savolaxids were racially intact since their birth and that they were closely related to the high-skulled Indo-Europeans of the East Nordid type. So I guess that he did not hold to the contemporary view held by some that modern-day Finns became predominantly European after a bunch of Scandinavian women got impregnated by Eastern invaders as some prehistoric multiculturalism in the North.

Today the modern linguist theories have a great impact to the view of the origin of Finns. The basic theory sees that that Iron Age dialects spoken in Southwestern Finland and Tavastia came from Estonia, so this implies that also those people came at least in certain amount from Estonia. Old linguists were not able to take into account modern genetics, so their theories were simply and didn't include modern yDna results, i.e. western I1, but the theory of the origin of Finnish language still remains. (Today linguists speak about Early Iron Age Saami/Finnish-Germanic contacts, but they in all circumstances beware of connecting this to Finnish Iron Age I1, although certainly make connections with Bronze Age N1c).
Looking closely the Baltic-Finnic language tree we see that also Karelian and Vepsian languages are placed to the northern Baltic-Finnic branch with Finnish. Sure they belong, it is easy to see even for layman. This means that Tavastian, SW-Finnish, Karelian and Vepsian are descendants of the southern Baltic-Finnic group including Estonian and Livonian. Linguists consider Savonian as the youngest dialect of the northern Baltic Finnic group. So in linguistic view Tavastians can't be descendants of Savonians, but in genetic view it is possible assuming Savonians as a mixture of Karelisns and Lapps (Lapps = south Saamis in Finland) and Tavastians as a mixture of Finns and Lapps. All possible modern theories confict with Lundman, but maybe we could take something from him after correcting his worst mistakes.

[Lemminkäinen]

Russian physical anthropology is probably most advanced in the world though. Third race of eurasia was a concept which proposed that Uralic race was not Europoid or Mongoloid, but a divergent form, which had it's own unique evolution due to isolation from times before the formation of greater races. Somewhat akin to ANE concept.

Hard to believe that modern Uralics are not mixed Europeans and Asians. People can dream something else though.

[Lemminkäinen]

Some cautions about Finnish popularized linguistic ideas. As I wrote Old Finnish including its dialects, Karelian and Vepsian belong to northern Baltic-Finnic group. The original, and still valid theory states that the northern group diverged from the southern one in South Finland during the first centuries AD. This obliges that Karelian and Vepsian are descendants of Iron Age Finnish, but doesn't oblige fully genetic similarity. Iron Age archaeology attests about the migration from Tavastia to Karelia, supporting the language flow too. I have seen that some Finnish layman linguists inspired by Russian scientists want to challenge this view of Finnish and Estonian science.

[Östsvensk]

Today the modern linguist theories have a great impact to the view of the origin of Finns. The basic theory sees that that Iron Age dialects spoken in Southwestern Finland and Tavastia came from Estonia, so this implies that also those people came at least in certain amount from Estonia. Old linguists were not able to take into account modern genetics, so their theories were simply and didn't include modern yDna results, i.e. western I1, but the theory of the origin of Finnish language still remains. (Today linguists speak about Early Iron Age Saami/Finnish-Germanic contacts, but they in all circumstances beware of connecting this to Finnish Iron Age I1, although certainly make connections with Bronze Age N1c).
Looking closely the Baltic-Finnic language tree we see that also Karelian and Vepsian languages are placed to the northern Baltic-Finnic branch with Finnish. Sure they belong, it is easy to see even for layman. This means that Tavastian, SW-Finnish, Karelian and Vepsian are descendants of the southern Baltic-Finnic group including Estonian and Livonian. Linguists consider Savonian as the youngest dialect of the northern Baltic Finnic group. So in linguistic view Tavastians can't be descendants of Savonians, but in genetic view it is possible assuming Savonians as a mixture of Karelisns and Lapps (Lapps = south Saamis in Finland) and Tavastians as a mixture of Finns and Lapps. All possible modern theories confict with Lundman, but maybe we could take something from him after correcting his worst mistakes.

Savolaxians were considered by Retzius as a mix of Tavastians and Karelians, which Lundman considered a wrong assumption.

Lundman wrote:


Most of the modern prehistorians assume that the ancestors
of the present-day West Finns began to arrive on the southwest
coast of Finland around the time of the birth of Christ. However,
the ancestors of the East Finns are believed to have settled in the
eastern part of the country as early as the Stone Age, and at
that time with a more or less comb-ware culture {Kammkeramischer
Kultur).

The Anthropological Study of Finland, translated from the German, p. 209

So it seems like people still hold to that in bold today, you say.

[travv]

I remember those felt boots. Never felt cold in them!

I think she'll like it.

[Lemminkäinen]

Savolaxians were considered by Retzius as a mix of Tavastians and Karelians, which Lundman considered a wrong assumption.

Lundman wrote:


Most of the modern prehistorians assume that the ancestors
of the present-day West Finns began to arrive on the southwest
coast of Finland around the time of the birth of Christ. However,
the ancestors of the East Finns are believed to have settled in the
eastern part of the country as early as the Stone Age, and at
that time with a more or less comb-ware culture {Kammkeramischer
Kultur).

The Anthropological Study of Finland, translated from the German, p. 209

So it seems like people still hold to that in bold today, you say.

Lundman is wrong about Savonians. Although both, Savonians and Tavastians share common Lapp ancestry, the Savonians are mixed Tavastians and Karelians, just as Retzius suggests. The fact that all Finns have minor Lapp ancestry doesn't oblige that all later Finnish admixtures didn't exist.

According all brances of science the Baltic-Finnic language came to SW-Finland during the first centuries AD. But as we know linguists are prone to make mistakes; only 40 years ago they made a continuation theory suggesting that Uralic languages were spoken here soon after the Ice Age. This gives room for Russian troll factories to spread opinions. Now Finnish linguists are back in main stream and support old Finnish and Estonian linguistic views.

[Lemminkäinen]

I think she'll like it.

I had those boots, but I never had dog skin mittens. My Karelian wife had them. It would havebeen hard to explain in Western Finland.

[Ülev]

8,5/10

[Chinese Kurd]

It was -32 degrees in Bolu yesterday


https://i.imgur.com/0cr907D.png

You're cheating because you want her to choose Bolu not Mari El. Show me your snow.

I wasn't cheating btw you should search the weather of Gerede, Dörtdivan, Kıbrıscık and Abant Gölü they should be more colder than than Center

https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/turkiye/bolu-eksi-32-dereceyle-bu-gece-turkiyenin-en-soguk-ili-oldu/2114750#

https://ibb.co/D9yp6Dq
https://ibb.co/TwgkDSX
https://ibb.co/hXF3hYF
https://ibb.co/dbgxjft