Flashball
02-10-2021, 07:14 PM
I have never seen comments so disconnected from recent genetic studies on France. We wonder which intern wrote that ...
https://faq.myheritage.com/en/article/why-arent-my-french-origins-reflected-in-my-ethnicity-estimate
the only region that is almost completely of Germanic descent is the Nord-Pas-de-Calais, annexed to France less than 400 years ago. Normandy, Picardy, Champagne, Lorraine, and Alsace have all a lot of Germanic DNA, but it has been mixed with indigenous Proto-Celtic DNA.
Picardy is in Nord-Pas-de-Calais, so you should know: totally Germanic or mixed with Celtic?
Then it is wrong: the Picards are not "purely Germanic", they are not even close to the West Germans on a PCA. My father, who is mainly Picard (with a Poitevin ancestor, but from the 18th century), clust closer to an individual from Berry and Ardèche / Haute-Loire than anything else.
Italian and Greek Ethnicities: The southern regions of France were settled very early by the Greeks, who founded cities like Nice, Marseilles, Antibes, Montpellier and the city-state of Monaco; this was also the first region of France to be dominated by the Roman who settled in this region due to its climatic similarity with the Italian Peninsula. As a consequence, most people from the Midi (Southern France) are genetically closer to central Italians and Greeks rather than to central and northern French people. However, another region that was settled by the Romans was the Val de Loire — considered the cradle of the French language — near the provinces of Poitou, Anjou, Touraine, and Berry.
Midi >>>:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/France_Midi_45%C2%B0_Latitude.jpg/800px-France_Midi_45%C2%B0_Latitude.jpg
It is also false: I have never seen a single sample of a totally French person (therefore without any other ancestor) that is said to come from the "Midi" (a term that is not used in France: if an individual comes from Ardèche, we do not say that he "comes from the Midi of France", it is very rare that people say that, it is too simplistic and with this term we cannot locate the precise origin of the person) who clustered with Tuscans or Greeks.
Then, the person who wrote that confuses "foreign colony" and "foreign contribution within a population": the vandals settled during 1 century in North Africa, but the genetic contribution is completely weak, if not nonexistent. The Venetians had colonies in some parts of Greece, but I doubt the Venetian contribution is noticeable in these people. Colony of a foreign population does not automatically mean "mixing" (sometimes yes, sometimes no); there is also the fact (which is not taken into account) of the founder effect: "In population genetics, the founder effect corresponds to the loss of the genetic variation which occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals belonging to a larger population."
Even if the Vandals had mixed with the North Africans, this would be hardly noticeable in the population, as it would have been diluted for centuries in the Berber population (unless there is a renewal of the vandal contribution).
Scandinavian: Between the 9th and the 11th centuries the Vikings settled in various regions of France and the Benelux (notably Normandy and Bruges), bringing a new influx of Germanic genomes. Nowadays the Cotentin peninsula in Normandy has the highest percentage of paternal lineages of Germanic origin (~33%) after the Nord-Pas-de-Calais (~40%), which includes the French Flanders, where Dutch/Fleming was traditionally the dominant ethnic group and where their language is still spoken.
The Flemish of France are not the same as those in Belgium, genetically speaking I mean.
As for the paternal line (I suppose he is talking about the haplogroup), it is certainly true but not autosomal (otherwise these populations would titrate towards populations other than French), more than 40% it is not a majority is almost half (it is still not much for such a Germanic population).
The person still confuses the Nord-Pas-de-Calais and the French Flanders part: one is Picard, the other is predominantly also with some Flemish areas. In truth, some typical Flemish surnames sometimes don't mean much: my maternal grandmother's surname is Venderotte, who was originally Vanderotte, but the ancestry is from Courcelles-lès-Lens and before that, from Noyelles-Godault ... you will tell me, it is very close to French Flanders: yes, but when I look at the male line Vanderotte / Venderotte, I see that all the wives have typical Picardy surnames . In truth, even in French Flanders we find people with surnames of "Belgian" (Flemish or Picard) origin but who are not nevertheless close to the Dutch on a PCA. The Flemish and Picardy division is sometimes arbitrary depending on the ideologies of each other, I prefer to stick to genetics and not simply to linguistics and culture, otherwise it would say of all Alsatians that they are only pure "Frenchized" Germans (or Germanized French for the Germans, which is more genetically likely). My GUELTON branch on the paternal side of my family is from Taintignies in Hainaut (present-day Wallonia, Belgium), which could be considered "Flemish" for foreigners but which is not for locals: it is the most Picard part of Belgium (although geographically closer to Belgian Flanders compared to French Flanders which is less so). The Guelton family name is of Picardy origin.
My cousin, who is mostly Flemish and a little Picard (on the Venderotte side), clusters near the less Flemish Belgians ("dutch-like"). This shows the complexity of the matter.
https://faq.myheritage.com/en/article/why-arent-my-french-origins-reflected-in-my-ethnicity-estimate
the only region that is almost completely of Germanic descent is the Nord-Pas-de-Calais, annexed to France less than 400 years ago. Normandy, Picardy, Champagne, Lorraine, and Alsace have all a lot of Germanic DNA, but it has been mixed with indigenous Proto-Celtic DNA.
Picardy is in Nord-Pas-de-Calais, so you should know: totally Germanic or mixed with Celtic?
Then it is wrong: the Picards are not "purely Germanic", they are not even close to the West Germans on a PCA. My father, who is mainly Picard (with a Poitevin ancestor, but from the 18th century), clust closer to an individual from Berry and Ardèche / Haute-Loire than anything else.
Italian and Greek Ethnicities: The southern regions of France were settled very early by the Greeks, who founded cities like Nice, Marseilles, Antibes, Montpellier and the city-state of Monaco; this was also the first region of France to be dominated by the Roman who settled in this region due to its climatic similarity with the Italian Peninsula. As a consequence, most people from the Midi (Southern France) are genetically closer to central Italians and Greeks rather than to central and northern French people. However, another region that was settled by the Romans was the Val de Loire — considered the cradle of the French language — near the provinces of Poitou, Anjou, Touraine, and Berry.
Midi >>>:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/France_Midi_45%C2%B0_Latitude.jpg/800px-France_Midi_45%C2%B0_Latitude.jpg
It is also false: I have never seen a single sample of a totally French person (therefore without any other ancestor) that is said to come from the "Midi" (a term that is not used in France: if an individual comes from Ardèche, we do not say that he "comes from the Midi of France", it is very rare that people say that, it is too simplistic and with this term we cannot locate the precise origin of the person) who clustered with Tuscans or Greeks.
Then, the person who wrote that confuses "foreign colony" and "foreign contribution within a population": the vandals settled during 1 century in North Africa, but the genetic contribution is completely weak, if not nonexistent. The Venetians had colonies in some parts of Greece, but I doubt the Venetian contribution is noticeable in these people. Colony of a foreign population does not automatically mean "mixing" (sometimes yes, sometimes no); there is also the fact (which is not taken into account) of the founder effect: "In population genetics, the founder effect corresponds to the loss of the genetic variation which occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals belonging to a larger population."
Even if the Vandals had mixed with the North Africans, this would be hardly noticeable in the population, as it would have been diluted for centuries in the Berber population (unless there is a renewal of the vandal contribution).
Scandinavian: Between the 9th and the 11th centuries the Vikings settled in various regions of France and the Benelux (notably Normandy and Bruges), bringing a new influx of Germanic genomes. Nowadays the Cotentin peninsula in Normandy has the highest percentage of paternal lineages of Germanic origin (~33%) after the Nord-Pas-de-Calais (~40%), which includes the French Flanders, where Dutch/Fleming was traditionally the dominant ethnic group and where their language is still spoken.
The Flemish of France are not the same as those in Belgium, genetically speaking I mean.
As for the paternal line (I suppose he is talking about the haplogroup), it is certainly true but not autosomal (otherwise these populations would titrate towards populations other than French), more than 40% it is not a majority is almost half (it is still not much for such a Germanic population).
The person still confuses the Nord-Pas-de-Calais and the French Flanders part: one is Picard, the other is predominantly also with some Flemish areas. In truth, some typical Flemish surnames sometimes don't mean much: my maternal grandmother's surname is Venderotte, who was originally Vanderotte, but the ancestry is from Courcelles-lès-Lens and before that, from Noyelles-Godault ... you will tell me, it is very close to French Flanders: yes, but when I look at the male line Vanderotte / Venderotte, I see that all the wives have typical Picardy surnames . In truth, even in French Flanders we find people with surnames of "Belgian" (Flemish or Picard) origin but who are not nevertheless close to the Dutch on a PCA. The Flemish and Picardy division is sometimes arbitrary depending on the ideologies of each other, I prefer to stick to genetics and not simply to linguistics and culture, otherwise it would say of all Alsatians that they are only pure "Frenchized" Germans (or Germanized French for the Germans, which is more genetically likely). My GUELTON branch on the paternal side of my family is from Taintignies in Hainaut (present-day Wallonia, Belgium), which could be considered "Flemish" for foreigners but which is not for locals: it is the most Picard part of Belgium (although geographically closer to Belgian Flanders compared to French Flanders which is less so). The Guelton family name is of Picardy origin.
My cousin, who is mostly Flemish and a little Picard (on the Venderotte side), clusters near the less Flemish Belgians ("dutch-like"). This shows the complexity of the matter.