Słavamir Adamovič: Breivik is a normal and sane citizen

[W. R.]

Słavamir Adamovič: Breivik is a normal and sane citizen
25.07.2011

About causes and consequences of the terrorist act in Norway Polskie Radio talks with Belarusian poet Słavamir Adamovič, who has lived in the Norwegian town of Bodø, located north of the Arctic Cirle, for 9 years. At the beginning of 90s Słavamir Adamovič initiated and headed an ultra-right organization “The Right Revenge”. He is being interviewed by D. Hurnievič.


http://www2.polskieradio.pl/_admin/cm/polonia/_Sekcja205/_images/2011072509133758_240.jpg

Słavamir, how did you find out about the terrorist act in Oslo and shooting in Utøya? What were your first feelings and thoughts?

S. Adamovič: I found out about everything from TV. What did I think back then? You know, that had been going to happen. The only thing that I didn't expect that it would be done by a Norwegian against his fellow Norwegians.

And why do you think it was going to happen? Norway, as perceived by everyone, is a very calm, rich, even a bit boring counry.

S. Adamovič: It is only said so. Something like this is said about Belarus as well as about other small countries. But, as people say, “in a quiet swamp there are devils”. My 9 year experience proves something different. I have observed and seen these problems, that have stuck out today.

What problems are you talking about?

S. Adamovič: The problem, first of all, is about the human material. There is a lack of workforce in Norway. There are 3,5 millions of ethnic Norwegians (in Norway there live 4,9 millions of people. – The editor). For the last 40-45 years there has been an economic boom because of the economic development and first of all because of the beginning of the oil extraction in the Norwegian sea. The lack of workforce was felt. When Norwegians happened to find oil, they immediately invited British engineers, because they didn't have enough theirs. And then there was a lack of blue collars. During the last 45 years 900 000 foreigners have come to Norway. First it was immigration for economic reasons, then for political reasons. As a result now one million are immigrants. It's a huge number, this makes a great turn in everything.

What is the problem of immigrants about if it were Norwegians who invited them?

S. Adamovič: 6 years ago there was a wave of murders, committed by immigrants. Back then, by the way, the population significantly shifted to the right, and the right party Høyre came to power.

But the last election was won by the left Party of Labour, that means the majority was not against the pro-immigration program of prime minister Stoltenberg?

S. Adamovič: Unlike in Belarus, here, in Norway, political parties work for minimization of internal and external negative influences. It is even necessary, but as long as it doesn't overflow banks, as long as they can handle the problem. But the last events show that the parties and the society aren't able to control the situation.

But when someone said about the “overflown banks”, it was first of all about immigrants. But for this terrible tragedy a Norwegian is responsible, a blue-eyed blond person, who killed his fellow people.

S. Adamovič: But all this is interconnected. Before everybody thought that calm Norwegians let the foreign element in and don't see any problem. But it appears they see. All this story show the situation with freedom in Norway, by the way. The prisoner asked to allow press to be at the trial, but unfortunately he was denied.

It seems to me it is very logical. His goal was to popularize his neo-Nazi ideas among as many people as possible. Why should he be allowed to do it? Why to allow him to popularize his sick ideas?

S. Adamovič: Well, first of all, we should avoid personal judgments. If we are going to judge about everything so easily, without going deeper into the essence of the problem, we are going to step on the same rake. No way he is an idiot. Here also quickly appeared the intention to influence the public opinion in such a way: as if he is insane. But loonies don't do such grandiose things. He is a normal sane man. But nevertheless it must be said: some fragments of his manifesto were read out. Journalist still are going to report them to listeners and viewers, and this is good. He is a normal citizen. As he himself said: I had no other legal, political opportunities, to inform about my ideas and outline the problem.

Słavamir, explain this: he complains that so few Norwegians are being born in his country, and that the state has to invite foreigners, but at the same time he himself doesn't have a family and children. To some extent he himself contributed to this “problem”.

S. Adamovič: I want to say about a different thing. The following example shows that I, maybe better than anyone else, understand Breivik. In year 2008 a journalist from NRK, a state broadcasting company, contacted me. She flied to me from Oslo. All these questions, that have been raised by the explosion and shooting, all this I told her. The interview was broadcast, but she and the commentator, a translator of my poetry, by the way, made an odd fellow out of me, a bit primitive racist, a bad East European. They refused to understand anything.

And what so scary did you tell them?

S. Adamovič: I tell them what I saw when lived at the very bottom of the million that has immigrated. I told them about the camps for refugees. In the town where I live there are 3000 foreigners per 40 000 inhabitants. They are seen everywhere.

But, Słavamir, you are a foreigner as well.

S. Adamovič: And yet not. I am from East Europe and know their language. They threat us differently. But immigrants of the Muslim faith live in closed enclaves. And everyone always have his flag at home: from Iran, Iraq or Chechnya. Always quotes from the Koran on walls. There is no integration, at least in the first and second generation. This is a country within a country.

If we accept that the problem really exists, that there are too many immigrants and birth rates of the native population are low, what Norwegians should do now? Shouldn't somebody work?

S. Adamovič: According to the statistic data, in order to save the post-war balance and to progress in Norway, every Norwegian has to have 3 and more children. If you look around in the streets, there indeed are many Norwegian families with many children, but it is not enough. And workforce is indeed necessary. This is a problem of many European countries and it was created, so to say, by the white race himself.

Then why isn't the white race solving it? Why don't they have many children?

S. Adamovič: The extremely high standards of living are to blame. In our country people are afraid to have many children because they don't know if they can afford them, and here the bent is in the other direction. The people are striving only to have and to acquire. Striving for progress, people get regress.

Let's go back to the tragedy. During the interrogation Breivik said that what he did was terrible, but he wanted to send a certain message to people. What is your opinion, will he manage to do what he is planning to do?

S. Adamovič: It's difficult to say. Most likely it is going to stir up adjacent societies. When eyes and ears are luted with oil and well-being, there is nothing to fight for. Previously people had a hope, that a party will stand for their ideals, a party for which they had voted, but for a long time it hasn't worked efficiently. I don't know how people will understand it, but in the political life some changes are going to happen.

Słavamir, is it possible to say, that somebody is to blame for this terrible happening? The right, the left, an insane person, Muslims or coincidence of circumstances?

S. Adamovič: It would be too simple to attribute everything to one person. I don't think that Norwegians are so short-signed to do it. They will make some conclusions. Pay your attention to an interesting fact, by the way: from the island of Utøya there is only 700 meters. Everyone of those youths has a mobile phone, maybe even two phones. Everything was well heard on the other shore. And imagine that shooting is going on for 1,5 hours. Where was the police? So far there was no statement from the head of the local special services. She just has nothing to say. Yes, Breivik personally is to blame, but where are public services, where is the state? I'm very sorry that that happened. I'll say somehow immodestly, but I think if I had met him and talked to him, this wouldn't have happened. Maybe I would have been able to make him take another direction. Unfortunately the worst thing happened. And it happened because the society indeed has problems. Nothing appears out of nowhere, and grows in one separate head. If a problem is not solved, a monster is born.

From here:
http://www2.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/ru/news/artykul159395.html

[The Lawspeaker]

The article offers a very interesting perspective. Thank you.

[Hevneren]

The article offers a very interesting perspective. Thank you.

This article is full of shit.

[The Lawspeaker]

This article is full of shit.
Let me get into that when I get back from the shop. Not every article that doesn't live up to your liberal big state ideals is shite. I actually think that it targets a part of the issue spot on.

[W. R.]

I'm really fucking sick and tired of foreigners capitalising on this national tragedy to spread their ideological manure in the media.
I'm just really sick and tired of foreigners using this tragedy for their cheap political agendas.Knowing Adamovič a little I am not surprised by what I have read. In this interview he is being pretty predictabe. I don't think he uses this tragedy in any way, he was just asked - and he replied.

[Sturmgewehr]

Słavamir Adamovič is as sane as Breivic.



The article offers a very interesting perspective. Thank you.

The Article makes no sense, and the guy interviewed is full of shit and Logical Fallacies.

[Hevneren]

Słavamir Adamovič is as sane as Breivic.




The Article makes no sense, and the guy interviewed is full of shit and Logical Fallacies.

You're right. People like to post disinformation to serve their own purposes. They use some tragic event for their own personal agendas. I can smell this, even on people like Civis Batavi.

[Pallantides]

This article is full of shit.

Sums it up.

[Beorn]

S. Adamovič: Well, first of all, we should avoid personal judgments. If we are going to judge about everything so easily, without going deeper into the essence of the problem, we are going to step on the same rake. No way he is an idiot. Here also quickly appeared the intention to influence the public opinion in such a way: as if he is insane. But loonies don't do such grandiose things. He is a normal sane man. But nevertheless it must be said: some fragments of his manifesto were read out. Journalist still are going to report them to listeners and viewers, and this is good. He is a normal citizen. As he himself said: I had no other legal, political opportunities, to inform about my ideas and outline the problem. Quoted for truth.

[Monolith]

Słavamir Adamovič: Breivik is a normal and sane citizen
He's either an unusual, Hannibal Lecter-type of psychopath, or a sane person with very strong convictions.


S. Adamovič: The extremely high standards of living are to blame. In our country people are afraid to have many children because they don't know if they can afford them, and here the bent is in the other direction. The people are striving only to have and to acquire. Striving for progress, people get regress.
I think this is a spot on assessment of the contemporary white plague.

[Beorn]

Sane people consider themselves modern-day Templars and killed dozens of their countrymen to "fight Islam"? You don't know the meaning of "sane", do you?

Stop being so emotional. Breivik was sane and he killed people. Get over it and move on.

[Beorn]

You can't diagnose the prick as sane.

Why not?

[Hevneren]

Why not?

Are you a trained psychiatrist? Psychologist? Do you even know the details of the case? Do you consider calling yourself a Templar and making fake uniforms to make yourself one, before going off and killing 77 innocent people - most of whom were Norwegian - because you don't like multiculturalism, sane?

You're nothing but a little Limey troll, aren't you? Or are you actually one of those little Nazis who praises mass murder? Is that it? Does the thought of murdering unarmed teenagers give you a hard-on, you sick little prick?

[Magister Eckhart]

Are you a trained psychiatrist? Psychologist? Do you even know the details of the case? Do you consider calling yourself a Templar and making fake uniforms to make yourself one, before going off and killing 77 innocent people - most of whom were Norwegian - because you don't like multiculturalism, sane?

Yes. Sane people do actually kill other people, some times many other people. Evil isn't insanity; evil is calculated, it is rational, and it is perfectly understandable. Evil is done with good intentions many times, with sane and sound motives. Sane people dress up in costume, sane people give themselves titles to help them to cope with a reality that upsets them. Sane people do all of the things this man did. The fact that he decided to kill reflects on his morality, not his sanity.

[Aces High]

Are you a trained psychiatrist? Psychologist?

Which begets the question.....are you.?

[Hevneren]

Yes. Sane people do actually kill other people, some times many other people. Evil isn't insanity; evil is calculated, it is rational, and it is perfectly understandable. Evil is done with good intentions many times, with sane and sound motives. Sane people dress up in costume, sane people give themselves titles to help them to cope with a reality that upsets them. Sane people do all of the things this man did. The fact that he decided to kill reflects on his morality, not his sanity.

It's not sane to kill scores of unarmed young people and not flinch or feel bad about it. It simply isn't. No sane human being (someone with a developed conscience) can do such a thing. A psychiatrist commentated what happened and said there's likely to be a personality disorder, like a grand sense of self-importance and a distorted view of reality (i. e. thinking you're a Templar Knight etc.)

This sub-human seems to think it can order the government to leave office. That's called being delusional.

[Hevneren]

Which begets the question.....are you.?

No, but I know a whole lot more about this case than some pretend "Englishman" who thinks treason is heroism. I live here, I read our news. I know what happened better than you. Please don't turn Civis Batavi on me. :rolleyes2:

[The Ripper]

Why should anyone pay heed to what some ignorant random Polish immigrant thinks about Norway? What relevance does he have? What understanding does he have? He's clearly ignorant of the facts in my nation. He is of no value.

At least read the article.

And sometimes its good to get an outside perspective, which can be informing and telling even in its inaccuracies.

[rhiannon]

Normal and sane citizens don't run around offing their fellow citizens.:rolleyes:

[Hevneren]

At least read the article.

And sometimes its good to get an outside perspective, which can be informing and telling even in its inaccuracies.

This immigrant talked out of his arse. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[The Ripper]

So he got some stats wrong. But he was an immigrant living in Norway, he must have some kind insight into and personal experience of the problems and general atmosphere that fueled Breivik's ideology. Just take the article for what it's worth.

[Magister Eckhart]

It's not sane to kill scores of unarmed young people and not flinch or feel bad about it. It simply isn't. No sane human being (someone with a developed conscience) can do such a thing. A psychiatrist commentated what happened and said there's likely to be a personality disorder, like a grand sense of self-importance and a distorted view of reality (i. e. thinking you're a Templar Knight etc.)

This sub-human seems to think it can order the government to leave office. That's called being delusional.

You know, for all intents and purposes, he was a Knight Templar, since the order was disbanded and excommunicated centuries ago by the Church and has no central governing body to decide who is a member and who isn't. In fact, considering the fact that all who were killed were Communists, which means they were excommunicate and outlawed by Medieval Standards, he didn't even necessarily break the code of the Order. This is a man who was fully conscious of what he was doing 100% of the time he was doing it, and completely sane and competent.

The evil he did cannot be ascribed to insanity; to call him insane is more self-serving than anything else, because it is to claim implicitly that it is impossible for oneself or other "sane" people to commit such outrages. In reality, any person and every person is fully capable of doing this, because every person is equally susceptible to the influence of evil. Breivik had a fully developed conscience: he knew right and wrong and he believed in right and wrong. He was stable and secure in his false sense of morality in the same way you are stable and secure in your false sense of morality. The difference resides in what you consider morality versus what he considered morality, but ultimately there isn't a great deal of difference between him and any other person who believes immoral things or commits immoral acts. It is evil that is in question here, not sanity.

Breivik represents nothing more or less than a society which allows individuals to decide what is right and what is wrong rather than subordinate them as a whole to tradition and religion. If anything, it was Liberalism and relativism that created Breivik; his attack was really an act of fratricide against the other children of modernity and Liberalism. The Left has created a monster, but remain oblivious of it even when it attacks them. It's suicidal, really.



Normal and sane citizens don't run around offing their fellow citizens.:rolleyes:

I maintain that sanity is not the question here; evil is the question, and evil is sane.

[Beorn]

Are you a trained psychiatrist? Psychologist?

Are you?


Do you even know the details of the case?

Do you in comparison to the rest of the world?


Do you consider calling yourself a Templar and making fake uniforms to make yourself one, before going off and killing 77 innocent people - most of whom were Norwegian - because you don't like multiculturalism, sane?

Not really. I've said before it wasn't the best course of action to kill your own people, and I suspect you'd be less emotionally dramatic to the situation if had been Muslims or random brown people.


You're nothing but a little Limey troll, aren't you?

'Limey'? Do you live in the Second World War or summink?


Or are you actually one of those little Nazis who praises mass murder?

No, I'm a Communist who praises mass murder.


Does the thought of murdering unarmed teenagers give you a hard-on, you sick little prick?

Not really?


No, but I know a whole lot more about this case than some pretend "Englishman" who thinks treason is heroism.

Har har!

"Roll out the barrel! We'll have a barrel of fun!"

[Hevneren]

Then shut up......and dont talk about things you are not qualified to talk about then......keep your mentally retarded ramblings and profanity to yourself.

(which is the gist of what you were saying to the Captain)

Don't tell me to shut up. I know people like yourself and Blackbeard have your own NS brownshirt agenda, which is why you're trolling this thread and others. Fortunately, sane people aren't going to agree with your praising of mass murder and totalitarian fascism. You're nothing but pathetic, sick individuals.

[Beorn]

Fortunately, sane people aren't going to agree with your praising of mass murder and totalitarian fascism.

Are you a psychiatrist or psychologist?


You're nothing but pathetic, sick individuals.

A doctor, now, hey?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bpdWsOrotV0/THlCPo5QyJI/AAAAAAAADKE/Hrwe5K0aljg/s1600/marx+brothers+groucho+2.jpg

[Hevneren]

Breivik represents nothing more or less than a society which allows individuals to decide what is right and what is wrong rather than subordinate them as a whole to tradition and religion. If anything, it was Liberalism and relativism that created Breivik; his attack was really an act of fratricide against the other children of modernity and Liberalism. The Left has created a monster, but remain oblivious of it even when it attacks them. It's suicidal, really.

I like how you're trying to liken me to the sub-human. The fact that this prick used religious imagery (the Templar Knights) and loved Christianity, seems to escape you. It's always convenient for religious people like yourself to blame religiously motivated extremism on secular people and secular morality, when this prick got inspiration from the Crusades and Christian Templars fighting a holy war against Islam.

Your putrid Christian morality is so immoral that it boggles the mind that you can even think to blame us secular folk of being immoral. Your god is the worst mass murderer in history according to your Bible. Indeed, your god commanded or at the very least accepted genocide of entire tribes, according to the Bible. Where are the Malachites these days? You base your morality on the ramblings of Bronze Age desert dwellers who were mostly illiterate and ignorant about the world.

It's funny how you blame some sub-human's actions on everyone else, when the mantra of Christians is always "free will". Apparently, in this case, everyone else but the perpetrator is at fault, including those awful teenagers who dared to be on that island and not be Catholic nutbags.

I look forward to a time when religious nonsense like blaming the victims ends. Until then, the least thing I can do is to call you out on your disgusting immorality, as the twisted little Catholic you are. I'm going to look forward to your defence of child raping Catholic priests and all the other religious immoral perverts. I bet those children asked to be raped, right?

[The Lawspeaker]

Breivik represents nothing more or less than a society which allows individuals to decide what is right and what is wrong rather than subordinate them as a whole to tradition and religion. If anything, it was Liberalism and relativism that created Breivik; his attack was really an act of fratricide against the other children of modernity and Liberalism. The Left has created a monster, but remain oblivious of it even when it attacks them. It's suicidal, really.




I maintain that sanity is not the question here; evil is the question, and evil is sane.
Aye. It's liberalism and relativism pur sang. He does something because he feels that it might be correct without being like "hold on... I need to think about this again".

You know the stupidity of it all is that it is utterly, utterly useless. Blowing up some civil servants at a ministry and shooting up a great number of rather misguided kids achieved .. what ?

I think it achieved the opposite of what he wanted to achieve.. if anything if he wanted have done it in a more proper way (in a way that it would have had more effect) he should either have



blown up a big block of flats where no Norwegians are living but one that is filled with Muzzies,
shot Stoltenberg himself
pulled a Guy Fawks and attempted to blow up (or shoot up) Storting while it is in session. (which would, in my eyes, have been the "best" solution of them all because that actually has effect.)


At least that would have had more effect then killing scores of misguided kids. Because even if they are the future commissars of multicultural Soviet Norway, they are still a bunch of kids most of which were still wet behind the ears and could have been converted to a more worthy cause.

All are equally nasty and not very civilised but at least it wouldn't have been such a waste of precious young lifes, ammunition, explosives and time.

And that is exactly what makes Breivik so ineffectual. The biggest friend the Norwegian Left has ever had for giving them another weapon against nationalists (and they will use it as cynically as the Left does here and all over Europe).

[The Journeyman]

Breivik-

"It was completely unacceptable how the US and Western European regimes bombed our Serbian brothers. All they wanted was to drive Islam out by deporting the Albanian Muslims back to Albania. When the Albanians refused, they really didn’t have any choice but to use military force. By disallowing the Serbians the right for self-determination over their sovereign territory they indirectly dug a grave for Europe. A future where several Mini-Pakistan’s would eventually will be created in every Western European capital. This is unacceptable, completely unacceptable."

Seems sane here.

[Magister Eckhart]

I like how you're trying to liken me to the sub-human. The fact that this prick used religious imagery (the Templar Knights) and loved Christianity, seems to escape you. It's always convenient for religious people like yourself to blame religiously motivated extremism on secular people and secular morality, when this prick got inspiration from the Crusades and Christian Templars fighting a holy war against Islam.

I compared the two because atheism is no less evil than religious fanaticism. I certainly relate events like this to moral relativism, to be sure, but moral relativism is not the same as secularism even if the two often go hand-in-hand. Furthermore, you seem to fail to differentiate between mere symbol and actual content: that the man claimed to be Christian and adopted religious imagery does not make him either actually a Christian or a representative of religion in general. It is typical of the narrow-minded militant atheist to think in these terms because he has taught himself to identify Christianity with Christian imagery rather than with Christian faith, and grasps style but not content.

It does not surprise me in the least that you do this, since if you were capable of deep thought you would likely not respond in such a childish and emotional way to numerous unbiased analytical comments on this Breivik character. I really sympathised with you earlier, and drew comparisons between the Breivik incident in Norway and September 11 in the US, but the reality is that you simply are so close-minded that you cannot behave in any way but the highly emotional, irrational, and childish way in which you have repeatedly acted throughout this entire discourse. It should cause you deep shame as a man to behave in such a way.


Your putrid Christian morality is so immoral that it boggles the mind that you can even think to blame us secular folk of being immoral. Your god is the worst mass murderer in history according to your Bible. Indeed, your god commanded or at the very least accepted genocide of entire tribes, according to the Bible. Where are the Malachites these days? You base your morality on the ramblings of Bronze Age desert dwellers who were mostly illiterate and ignorant about the world.

I don't recall any Christian authority endorsing Breivik or any other fanatics who confuse Christian symbolism with Christian faith and appropriate Christian identity in order to justify their evil. It's rather like saying that the swastika always means Nazism just because the Nazis used it - no intelligent person would make such a claim.

If you can find a major Christian authority endorsing this sort of behaviour, please produce them, I will be very interested to read what they have to say. If you cannot, I do hope you have the good sense to retract the abusive comments you have made above.

I would like to note to the general audience how amusing it is to see how alike atheists like this one and fundamentalist Christians are; taking the Bible literally and constantly referring to the Old Testament when talking about Christianity. Same stupidity, different conclusions. I hope all you Protestants out there are happy: your challenge to church authority and putting the scripture in the hands of the idiot peasants is what created this mess.


It's funny how you blame some sub-human's actions on everyone else, when the mantra of Christians is always "free will". Apparently, in this case, everyone else but the perpetrator is at fault, including those awful teenagers who dared to be on that island and not be Catholic nutbags.

I fail to see where you are getting this from. I have repeatedly said he was fully sane and competent, meaning that he consciously committed this act without aid or excuse. The fact that his motivation derives from the prevailing social order is an important observation, but it only contextualises the crime, it does not excuse it. Your misinterpretation is likely rooted in a deep-seated hatred of Christianity that makes any rational approach to this discussion impossible.

It has apparently completely missed you that your repeated claims of insanity are in fact an argument against free will in this case and are a defence of a thoroughly evil individual. I cannot believe that you mean to defend him, so I must conclude that this self-contradiction stems from haste or stupidity. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say haste.


I look forward to a time when religious nonsense like blaming the victims ends. Until then, the least thing I can do is to call you out on your disgusting immorality, as the twisted little Catholic you are. I'm going to look forward to your defence of child raping Catholic priests and all the other religious immoral perverts. I bet those children asked to be raped, right?

This is the second or third time you have levelled this accusation of defending paedophilia and supporting evils done by clergy merely because I identify as a Roman Catholic. It reveals a deep-seated anti-Catholic prejudice rooted in pure fantasy, and reminds me of the conspiracy theorists and paranoiacs whose anti-Catholicism convinced them that John Kennedy was going to let the Pope run America. It's plainly fantastical, based on a reality which may parallel our own but is certainly not the same. I invite you to find postings where I've defended evil committed by clergymen. You will not find them, because you have invented it entirely. Indeed, I encourage you to find my endorsement of any sexual perversion committed by any individual: produce it for me and I will be satisfied that you are right to repeatedly hurl ad hominems instead of actually participate in an exchange.

You latch onto catchphrases and popular images and then hurl them about as an ape hurls its own faeces. It only testifies to your own mean-mindedness that you are so proficient in the deployment of imagery and stock phrases, but are incapable of identifying anything deeper than façade in either your own postings or those of others. For a man claiming to be the age you claim to be, it's frankly pathetic.

[The Lawspeaker]

Breivik-


Seems sane here.
That's the problem. He was rational and calculating and yet he got his maths wrong. And with the sum solved the wrong way he came to the wrong conclusion and offed a lot of young kids while he could have offed those that are responsible for the mess.

[Joe McCarthy]

There are two important points here.

1. The sooner nationalists stop indentifying with mass murderers, notorious dictators, shooters, etc., and stop trying to present them as folk heroes, the better. Ordinary people will never relate to fringe whackjobs.

2. Even a summary review of the experience of attentats (political killings) shows that things wind up worse, not better, after some dude goes on a rampage. Princip, John Wilkes Booth, Czolgost, the various anarchist assassins in Europe, etc., all made things worse for society and hurt the cause they championed. I saw a poll not too long ago, for example, that after the shooting spree the Labour Party had the highest approval rating since the mid-80s. Breivik tried to destroy them. He did the opposite.

[The Lawspeaker]

There are two important points here.

1. The sooner nationalists stop indentifying with mass murderers, notorious dictators, shooters, etc., and stop trying to present them as folk heroes, the better. Ordinary people will never relate to fringe whackjobs.

2. Even a summary review of the experience of attentats (political killings) shows that things wind up worse, not better, after some dude goes on a rampage. Princip, John Wilkes Booth, Czolgost, the various anarchist assassins in Europe, etc., all made things worse for society and hurt the cause they championed. I saw a poll not too long ago, for example, that after the shooting spree the Labour Party had the highest approval rating since the mid-80s. Breivik tried to destroy them. He did the opposite.

Why not face the elephant in the room while we are at it:

Why do people resort to political violence?

The answer is surprisingly simple: It 's because they don't feel represented - it's because they feel (and usually their feelings are entirely justified) that they don't have a voice.

They feel marginalised, discriminated against, cast out, victimised and they see that there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that they can obtain a workable, political solution using peaceful methods.

[Magister Eckhart]

That's the problem. He was rational and calculating and yet he got his maths wrong. And with the sum solved the wrong way he came to the wrong conclusion and offed a lot of young kids while he could have offed those that are responsible for the mess.

It is so with all evil done from good intentions; a man cannot create good from evil, and he cannot combat evil with evil. Evil actions always serve evil ends, no matter what the intentions. Too often it is the rational and calculating doers who make this error; it is an error of arrogance.

[Joe McCarthy]

Why not face the elephant in the room while we are at it:

Why do people resort to political violence?

The answer is surprisingly simple: It 's because they don't feel represented - it's because they feel (and usually there feelings are entirely justified) that they don't have a voice.

They feel marginalised, discriminated against, cast out and they see that there is snowball's chance in hell that they can obtain a workable, political solution using peaceful methods.

Well, yes, there is a problem to be addressed. The leftist elite is trying to impose a multicultural society - but from the looks of things, Breivik has only helped them.

[The Lawspeaker]

It is so with all evil done from good intentions; a man cannot create good from evil, and he cannot combat evil with evil. Evil actions always serve evil ends, no matter what the intentions. Too often it is the rational and calculating doers who make this error; it is an error of arrogance.
And yet evil should not be suffered, it should not be tolerated - so how to fight what's basically a tyrannical regime masquerading as a representative democracy which marginalises a whole group of people because of "political correctness" and "affirmative action" without blowing them up while you have no chance whatsoever of defeating it using democratic, peaceful means ?



Well, yes, there is a problem to be addressed. The leftist elite is trying to impose a multicultural society - but from the looks of things, Breivik has only helped them.

And that's exactly the problem. It has helped the ruling elite. To speak in terms of evil: if they would have just been misguided then they would have thought "hold on a minute.. looks like we have pissed some people off !" and maybe even changed their ways but what they do now is use it to their advantage in order to slur any nationalist party or people with nationalist sentiments that might pop up. Let's call it a reductio ad Breivikum.

[Hevneren]

Breivik-


Seems sane here.

The sub-human prick copied and pasted most of it's "manifesto". Not only was it a raving madman (according to a psychologist it has a personality disorder), but it is also a copy and paste hack job and unintelligent.

The "manifesto" has been analysed and was described as childish, delusional, incoherent and extremely narcissistic to the point of provoking revulsion in the reader.

[Hevneren]

Aye. It's liberalism and relativism pur sang. He does something because he feels that it might be correct without being like "hold on... I need to think about this again".

He's a far-right whackjob. A shade away from a brownshirt.


You know the stupidity of it all is that it is utterly, utterly useless. Blowing up some civil servants at a ministry and shooting up a great number of rather misguided kids achieved .. what ?

I think trying to silence free speech and murdering people in general is pretty damn low.


I think it achieved the opposite of what he wanted to achieve.. if anything if he wanted have done it in a more proper way (in a way that it would have had more effect) he should either have



blown up a big block of flats where no Norwegians are living but one that is filled with Muzzies,
shot Stoltenberg himself
pulled a Guy Fawks and attempted to blow up (or shoot up) Storting while it is in session. (which would, in my eyes, have been the "best" solution of them all because that actually has effect.)


How charming, we have a Dutchman advocating the murder of our PM and other government officials, as well as the conspiracy to blow up the parliament. Maybe I should start advocating the murder of Dutchmen? Would you like that, Dutchie? You're pathetic. Stoltenberg is elected by us, as was the rest of our government, and no random Dutch prick has any business advocating a state coup in my nation.


At least that would have had more effect then killing scores of misguided kids. Because even if they are the future commissars of multicultural Soviet Norway, they are still a bunch of kids most of which were still wet behind the ears and could have been converted to a more worthy cause.

You're so full of shit. What the hell does the Soviet Union or Communism have to with this? Did you forget to take your medication? You're the one who's been advocating that Europe should get down on its knees for Putin and his minions.

The Labour Party has nothing to do with Communism. Get your head out of the medicine cabinet and stop with your Jewspiracy propaganda. Your nonsense is really getting old.


All are equally nasty and not very civilised but at least it wouldn't have been such a waste of precious young lifes, ammunition, explosives and time.

I say we just firebomb all of the Netherlands and turn it into a park. It's not like your country isn't a boring flat little stain overrun with Muslims and halfwits like yourself.


And that is exactly what makes Breivik so ineffectual. The biggest friend the Norwegian Left has ever had for giving them another weapon against nationalists (and they will use it as cynically as the Left does here and all over Europe).

That sub-human was no nationalist and no Norwegian. Now, stop using this for your own personal agenda. You love to instigate, don't you? The facts are however different from what you are presenting.

[Hevneren]

I'm sick and tired of people using tragic events for their own personal agenda. People like Adamovic and Civis Batavi are discrediting themselves and their "cause" by using 77 murdered people to score cheap political points and to make up some conspiracy involving Jews or Communists.

Every conspiracy theorist comes out of the woodwork, not giving a damn about those who were killed, the families of the victims or the survivors, but rather using this for all its worth to promote their own twisted realities, as Adamovic and Civis Batavi have shown.

It gets no better when these conspiracy theorists falsely claim to care about my nation or my people, while spewing out misinformation without any regard for the factual circumstances. They lack principles and scruples and will latch on to anything that will give them a modicum of notoriety. It would be sad if it wasn't so disrespectful and infuriating.

[Magister Eckhart]

I'm sick and tired of people using tragic events for their own personal agenda. People like Adamovic and Civis Batavi are discrediting themselves and their "cause" by using 77 murdered people to score cheap political points and to make up some conspiracy involving Jews or Communists.

Every conspiracy theorist comes out of the woodwork, not giving a damn about those who were killed, the families of the victims or the survivors, but rather using this for all its worth to promote their own twisted realities, as Adamovic and Civis Batavi have shown.

It gets no better when these conspiracy theorists falsely claim to care about my nation or my people, while spewing out misinformation without any regard for the factual circumstances. They lack principles and scruples and will latch on to anything that will give them a modicum of notoriety. It would be sad if it wasn't so disrespectful and infuriating.

You realise that everyone knows all you're doing is mindlessly ranting at this point, right? CB didn't even mention the Jews in this thread, and if he did it was in passing. Furthermore, no one is using Breivik to further any agenda. It seems to me that you are the most guilty of the paranoia and conspiracy theories of which you accuse others. But, being a leftist, it's no surprise to see you making things up out of thin air. I'm with Civis, go find another place to rant like a madman, Apricity doesn't need it.

[Hevneren]

You realise that everyone knows all you're doing is mindlessly ranting at this point, right? CB didn't even mention the Jews in this thread, and if he did it was in passing. Furthermore, no one is using Breivik to further any agenda. It seems to me that you are the most guilty of the paranoia and conspiracy theories of which you accuse others. But, being a leftist, it's no surprise to see you making things up out of thin air. I'm with Civis, go find another place to rant like a madman, Apricity doesn't need it.

I have every right to counter some ignorant foreign prick who believes he's entitled to lecture me about my own nation and people while writing about how we should kill our PM and blow up our parliament. Not only is he steamrolling me and ignoring my corrections, he's also ignoring the human impact this attack had, while peddling his toxic conspiracy propaganda and pretending to care about my nation and people.

I've had it with foreigners like you and Civis who think they can use this tragedy for their own twisted ideologies, lecturing us and pushing their nonsense down our throats. You couldn't give a damn about what happened, you're busy writing your justifications and apologetics for the attacks, trying to find and angle to insert your toxic conspiracies.

My nation has been reduced to your personal petri dishes where you can explore your darkest fantasies. Your shameful behaviour is a testament to the depravity of humanity. I will defend my nation and people as well as my position, no matter how many foreigners choose to cram their conspiracies and non-factual nonsense into this thread or others.

I'm not leaving this thread or this forum. You better get used to be standing up for my nation and people against people like you and Civis Batavi.

[The Lawspeaker]

I'm not the one making excuses for mass murder. When someone applauds or accepts or tries to make excuses if one of my people is killed, they're not only my personal enemy by my entire nation's enemy. In this case, it's much worse. You've turned this into a damn conspiracy circus. You're a selfish prick who just want to use this to spread your hateful anti-Norway propaganda.
Hateful anti-Norway propaganda. Another one that comes straight from your thick thumb. :D:coffee:
I haven't seen you post anything on this forum that wasn't an attack on another country and a defence of your ruling elite - I haven't seen you in the Norwegian history threads or in the Norwegian picture thread etc, I haven't seen you give someone travel advise... etc.

I like the country a lot but you need to learn to realise one thing and get it into your thick skull: Norwegian exceptionalism doesn't exist. Welcome to the real world where governments fuck you over and where murder and intrigue are about as normal as eating an apple.

It took us a while to understand that too ("political murders and assasination don't take place in the Netherlands and the government is honest") but we got there. When Pim Fortuyn was murdered and when the police knew damn well what was going on but didn't act until it was too late and when Pim Fortuyn was deliberately demonised and then refused protection.

But you don't want to learn a thing here. Because that's not why you're here.. you are just here to spread your red, hysteric propaganda and to troll. You've come to the wrong place for that because I will be watching you.. very very closely. :thumbs up

[Eldritch]

Eight pages of shit-flinging? Wow. That's pretty well even for this forum. :coffee:

I'm going to lock this thread for now, and mop it up and re-open it later. This topic is too important to be allowed to be run onto the ground by petty personal feuds.

We need to get the discussion on what made Breivik do what he did started, Hev. It just won't do to have you screaming that he was a sub-human filth and no foreigners are allowed to have an opinion, every time someone tries to.

Just as a comparison, you're very unlikely to find the Finns here doing the same when Pekka-Eric Auvinen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pekka-Eric_Auvinen#The_perpetrator) and Matti Saari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting) are mentioned.

[Eldritch]

Thread scrubbed and re-opened. No doubt it will have to be closed again soon, but I want to be able to say I tried.

About Breivik's sanity or lack thereof: if he is declared insane, then he is by definition not responsible for his own actions, and therefore he cannot be punished for them. He is either a stone-cold killer mofocka, or the pitiable victim of a mental illness. He cannot be both.

And I myself will leave it up to the Norwegian authorities to determine which it is, instead of indulging in premature cereal packet psychology.

[Siberyak]

There was another incident in the city of Malmo Sweden. A man named Laserman went around shooting immigrants.

[Magister Eckhart]

Thread scrubbed and re-opened. No doubt it will have to be closed again soon, but I want to be able to say I tried.

About Breivik's sanity or lack thereof: if he is declared insane, then he is by definition not responsible for his own actions, and therefore he cannot be punished for them. He is either a stone-cold killer mofocka, or the pitiable victim of a mental illness. He cannot be both.

And I myself will leave it up to the Norwegian authorities to determine which it is, instead of indulging in premature cereal packet psychology.

This is exactly my point; I maintain he was fully competent and fully responsible for this act of evil. I am very interested in what may have influenced him as a phenomenon as well as a person, which brings us to a discussion of Western right-wing terrorism in general. Are they justified? Are they worthy of our sympathy? I am sure we all agree they are worthy of censure, since they do evil, but are they simply evil men or tragic figures?

Breivik is, in my opinion, the latter - I certainly understand his anger and his desire to act, but likewise I think we all need to recognise how stupid terroristic actions are and how little utility they have for furthering our cause. Terrorism, after all, is a tactic, not an ideology, whatever the Neocons might have their public believe.

The better we understand evil actions, the more likely it is that we can find more useful and morally sound alternatives.

[W. R.]

I don't know how it is possible, but it looks like Słavamir Adamovič has joined The Progress Party. I suspect that he did it for lulz.

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't know how it is possible, but it looks like Słavamir Adamovič has joined The Progress Party. I suspect that he did it for lulz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Party_(Norway)


In a speech in the 2007 election campaign, Siv Jensen claimed that the immigration policy was a failure because it let criminals stay in Norway, while throwing out people who worked hard and followed the law.[127] The party claims the immigration and integration policy to be both naïve and snillistisk.[note 2][126] In 2009, the party proposed an official goal of reducing accepted asylum seekers by about 90%, from 1,000 to 100 a month, the standards then said to be used in Denmark and Finland,[132] although less than 100 a year was proposed in 2008.[133] In 2008, the party wanted to "avoid illiterates and other poorly resourced groups who we see are not able to adopt in Norway"; which included countries as Somalia, Afghanistan and Pakistan.[133] It also reject that asylum seekers are allowed stay in Norway on humanitarian grounds or due to health issues, and seeks to substantially limit the number of family reunifications.[133] The party wants to ban the use of hijab in schools, and to deport parents of children wearing the hijab, citing the hijab to be oppressive to women and children.[134] The party has also called for a referendum on the general immigration policy.


The Progress Party is in principle open to a referendum on Norwegian membership of the European Union, although only if a majority of the public opinion is seen to favour it beforehand.[141] Currently, the party consider an eventual membership of Norway in the European Union to be a "non-issue", believing there to be no reason for a debate of a new referendum at present.[142] The party's demand that a referendum must be held before eventually applying for membership contrast with the Labour Party and Conservative Party who want to join the EU without any referendum.[143] The party regards NATO to be a positive basic element of Norway's defense, security and foreign policy. It also wants to strengthen transatlantic relations in general, and Norway's relationship with the United States more specifically


In May 2009 the British Conservative Party invited party leader Siv Jensen to hold a lecture in the House of Commons, which was seen as a further recognition of the party internationally, with the approach by the Danish Venstre the previous month.[159]

In the United States, the Progress Party generally supports the Republican Party, and was in 2010 called "friends" by the Republican Party Chairman as he said he looked forward to the continued growth of the party and free market conservative principles

[Odoacer]

I would like to note to the general audience how amusing it is to see how alike atheists like this one and fundamentalist Christians are; taking the Bible literally and constantly referring to the Old Testament when talking about Christianity. Same stupidity, different conclusions. I hope all you Protestants out there are happy: your challenge to church authority and putting the scripture in the hands of the idiot peasants is what created this mess.

Oh please. The Catholic Church has been guilty of plenty of over-literal readings of it's own - the doctrine of Transubstantiation is a good example, which is maintained to this day. Protestantism bequeathed literacy to Western Europe, because it wanted everyone to have access to the word of God. Far more good than harm came of that development.

[Magister Eckhart]

Oh please. The Catholic Church has been guilty of plenty of over-literal readings of it's own - the doctrine of Transubstantiation is a good example, which is maintained to this day. Protestantism bequeathed literacy to Western Europe, because it wanted everyone to have access to the word of God. Far more good than harm came of that development.

Educating the masses of peasants only leads them to believe the delusion that education makes them intelligent; it has done nothing but precipitated the complete collapse of traditional forms in Europe. The actual transformation of the substance of the bread and wine into the body and blood of the Living Word incarnate on Earth is not a literal reading, but a complete reading: the reception of God Who is, and thus is complete and total is likewise a complete and total experience. It is not some silly abstraction or symbol: it is the actualisation of God on Earth.

Further, the Church has always maintained that there are many ways the Word may be interpreted, and the literal interpretation is only the most superficial. Only the heretic fundamentalists take this simplistic and superficial reading to be the primary or singular reading of Scripture. This simpleton's approach to Christianity is the exact approach that led these heretics to confuse the word of God (the Scripture) with the Word Incarnate (the Christ, and God Himself). You have indeed given the word of God to all people, and in so doing clouded their minds against the Word Incarnate - the same legalism and obsession with wording that poisoned the Pharisees now runs rampant throughout Christianity thanks to this great "gift" Protestantism has bestowed on the people.

Protestantism, especially in the wake of Calvin, is the greatest usurpation to ever befall a Civilization; it is the direct ancestor and creator of modernity, and the enemy of the Church of Christ on Earth. The Word lives in the hearts of His Followers, not in the dead visions of Jewish prophets. This is the heart of Christianity, the heart that Billy Graham and Pat Robertson and all the rest of them will never begin to comprehend or to touch.


"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[Odoacer]

Educating the masses of peasants only leads them to believe the delusion that education makes them intelligent; it has done nothing but precipitated the complete collapse of traditional forms in Europe.

Traditional forms like abject poverty under crushing fuedalism, check. Traditional forms like idle superstitions tolerated if not encouraged by the Church (sales of indulgences, anyone?), check. Traditional forms like grossly immoral Vicars of Christ, check. Let's keep going, I'm sure we can find a few more truly valuable traditional forms in European history that were destroyed by Protestantism. :rolleyes:


The actual transformation of the substance of the bread and wine into the body and blood of the Living Word incarnate on Earth is not a literal reading, but a complete reading: the reception of God Who is, and thus is complete and total is likewise a complete and total experience. It is not some silly abstraction or symbol: it is the actualisation of God on Earth.

Transubstantiation is an over-literal reading of Christ's words, supplemented by elaborate explanations grounded in a faulty use of Aristotelian philosophy. Even Luther was too pigheaded to abandon a woodenly literal reading of "Hoc est corpus meum." His pigheadedness in that matter was a major disservice to the Reformation.


Further, the Church has always maintained that there are many ways the Word may be interpreted, and the literal interpretation is only the most superficial.

Except when it comes to the Real Presense. Or the unique authority of the Petrine See. Etc.


Protestantism, especially in the wake of Calvin, is the greatest usurpation to ever befall a Civilization; it is the direct ancestor and creator of modernity, and the enemy of the Church of Christ on Earth.

You need to give up on Weber. He was wrong. Enlightenment thought was incubated from the Renaissance, which was itself a turning back to classical pagan thought. Athens is the direct ancestor & progenitor of modern thought, not Geneva.

[arcticwolf]

It's really sad when people are trying to prove a point or feel compelled to offer advice and analysis when the time is to really just say I'm sorry. Please feel free to resist the temptation. This is not the time to offer Norwegians lessons. This is the time to offer them moral support. So here it goes, my heart goes out to the victims, to their families to the Norwegian nation. I won't pretend to know how you feel but I offer my sympathy. I'm sorry this senseless tragedy even happened.